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Ebbs
11-25-2011, 02:42 AM
NBA All Time Redraft Voting!

The following teams have been assembled and are now playing each other in a fantasy first round match up. For this game please assume that all players are in their primes and playing at the top of their game. Injuries are not a factor for this game as every single player is playing at his best.

Please take the time to read the write ups and put some thought into your vote as many of the GM’s in this spent a lot of time on this game.

No this obviously isn’t real.

If you think it’s stupid go to another thread.

Other than that have fun and argue for whom you believe has the better team.

#6 Orlando Magic

PG: Chris Paul - Dick McGuire - John Starks
SG: Sam Jones - John Starks - Tom Gola
SF: Jamaal Wilkes - Toni Kukoc - Jim Pollard
PF: Buck Williams - Tom Heinsohn - Connie Hawkins
C: Moses Malone - Connie Hawkins - Tom Heinsohn

VS.

#3 Philadelphia 76ers

C: David Robinson/ Kendrick Perkins
PF: Jermaine O'Neal/ Cedric Maxwell/ Troy Murphy
SF: Bobby Jones/ Hedo Turkuglo/ Rudy Gay
SG: Clyde Drexler/ Gus Williams
PG: Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway/ Don Buse


Magic Write up:


Team description:

This Orland Magic team relies too much on teamwork. There are no divas on this team which makes it easier to have a solid rotation with basically all players involved depending on who the opposition fields.

Dick McGuirce, Tom Gola, Sam Jones, Jim Pollard, Moses Malone, Connie Hawkins and Ton Heinsohn are Hall of Famers, while Kukoc and CP3 are real possibilites there too.
On the other hand, only David Robinson and Clyde Drexler from our opponent are in the Naismith Hall of Fame.

Matchup:

Moses Malone VS David Robinson shouts the most here. I'm not a person who likes comparing TEAMS with position vs position comparisons so I won't be doing any. Both are great defenders, great scorers with amazingly good post game, very good rebounders, one might be better in one factor than the other, but basically it's an extremely 50-50 matchup.
Makes it easier talking about front court overall, which in my opinion gives Orlando a slight edge with Buck Williams-Moses Malone vs Jermaine O'Neal-David Robinson. Buck Williams is one of the finest defensive, rebounding PF's, two-way PF and his game suits our style of play a lot.

Clyde Drexler, Penny Hardaway and Bobby Jones has a nice mixture of offense, playmaking and defense, but lacks shooting. Same can be said about Orlando Magic, but with our large rotation, we can use guys like John Starks and Toni Kukoc to spread the floor which would make CP3 to Moses an easy trip.

Philadelphia Sixers lack depth. In such games where one team has 10-12 players that are all time greats, competing against 4-5 great players, it's usually leaning towards the team with more depth. That team is Orlando Magic. Not many teams have the luxury to rotate Buck Williams with Connie Hawkins(Hall of Fame) and Tom Heinsohn(Hall of Fame, Boston Celtics). And not many teams have two 6th men of the year (John Starks and Toni Kukoc) in their arsenal.

While Philly might argue that they have more star power in David Robinson and Clyde Drexler on the same team, for the people who love counting rings and MVP awards, here's the comparison:

Championships:
Orlando - 32 + 1 ABA
Philadelphia - 7 + 2 ABA

MVPs (either season or finals)
Orlando - 4 + 2 ABA
Philadelphia - 2

Hall of Famers:
Orlando - 7
Philadelphia - 2

Around 4 times as many championships, 3 times more MVP awards and 3,5 times more Hall of Famers. It's a team sport I remind you.

As for the team chemistry and ability overall, well, both teams have talent that's definite, but Orlando can use multiple strategies in their game using the great depth, while Philadelphia will basically need to expect wonders from David Robinson and Clyde Drexler in offense and Bobby Jones to become superman in defense. And Orlando's rotation advantage will make sure that either at some point in the game we'd create a slightly big gap in the score, or that Philadelphia will have very tired key players in the final important minutes of each game in the series.
76ERS Write Up



The Philadelphia 76ers Write Up

Starting 5 Match ups

Starting PG: Chris Paul 6’0 175, 195 vs Penny Hardaway 6’7, 195

Both of these players have an amazing peak but what bodes very well in our favour is the mere fact that Penny has 7 inches on Chris Paul. Making it increasingly easier for him to pass, shoot and look over Paul when making plays. Though Paul is a good defender having the guard the much bigger Penny is going to really take a great deal out of him. Penny also wasn’t a slacker by any means on the defensive end of the floor. Being one of the few players in NBA history who REALLY took his game up a couple notches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vefSacsik&feature=related) come post season time I think it’s fair to say that given the opportunity in a 7 game series at home we’d see Penny bringing his absolute A game and quite frankly his A game is on par with Paul’s.

Starting SG: Sam Jones 6’4 198 vs Clyde Drexler 6’7 210

While I think it’s clear who’s winning this matchup I think it would be right to state exactly why. Clyde Drexler is one of the most versatile SGs (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywe3R2X7Gl0&feature=related) to ever play the game he is one of only 3 players all time to finish a career with 20,000 points, 6,000 rebounds and 6,000 assists. While not getting the credit he deserved in terms of accolades on the defensive end (largely because of guys like Jordan and Dumars) he was still a + defensive player and one of the greatest of his era at his position. Drexler does everything better than Jones and is a perfect complement to Penny Hardaway. They are both extremely unselfish players’ incredible athletes and can hurt you in numerous ways. Not to mention the fact that they are incredibly clutch offensive and defensive players as well. Jones essentially piggybacked on Russell in accomplishing all that he did. He was never the best player on any of his championship teams. While Clyde was able to lead 3 teams to the Finals as the man and won a championship leading his team in post season WS and overall WS on the season. Basically Clyde Drexler owns this matchup.

Starting SF: Jamaal Wilkes 6’6 190 vs Bobby Jones 6’9 210

In this matchup we see Jamaal Wilkes a decent two way player in his own right going up against The Greatest Perimeter Help Defender the league has ever seen. Bobby Jones has the size, the athletic ability and skill to absolutely lock Wilkes down. Honestly if Wilkes is able to score 10 points against Jones he’d have to consider himself a very lucky man. Jones is one of just a hand full of players in the history of the league to rank among the league leaders in both steals and blocks in the same season. He often guarded anyone from the opposing team’s SG to their C. One of the most versatile defensive players ever and was heralded as being seen and the best clutch defender the game have ever seen (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO1UvhQMnRk&feature=related). All this attention being played to his D can lead one to forget the mere fact that he’s also one of the most efficient players the league has ever seen. In terms of pure offensive efficiency he’s the 2nd most efficient SF the league has ever seen. Added to that he was a great rebounder for his position. All and all he’s the perfect complement to our team. Matched up against Wilkes won’t be a walk in the park but Jones will certainly be a nightmare for him on both ends of the floor.

Starting PF: Buck Williams 6’8 215 vs Jermaine O’Neal 6’11 223

Arguably the most even matchup of them all. Both great defensive players who aren’t really true #1 options on offense. However at their respective peaks O’Neal was the better player on offense and equally as good on D. O’Neal may not have the accolades that Williams has in the defensive department but when you play in a league that features the 2 greatest defensive PFs ever while in your prime it will be pretty hard to gain any recognition in terms of accolades. At their respective peaks however O’Neal was a better all round player and a bigger and more athletic player than Williams, again giving us another physical advantage. Very even match-up here but I’ll give O’Neal the edge for the simple fact that he’s a better all round player than Buck.
Starting C: Moses Malone 6’10 215 vs David Robinson 7’1 235

Here we see a match up between both team’s best players and two guys who are usually argued as the 6th and 7th best Cs of all time. They had fairly similarly dominant scoring peaks, Malone had a significant edge in rebounding Robinson has a more significant edge in defense. Robinson is among the greatest defensive Cs ever to play the game. He excelled in every single aspect of D from help, to man, to shot blocking, playing the passing lanes etc being one of only 2 Cs in the history of the game to average 2 blocks and 2 steals per game in the same season. Aside from his D he was also a phenomenal passer/play maker for a man of his size. Something Moses is yet to come to terms with. At no point in his career did he even average 2 assists per game in a season, while at his peak Robinson averaged 4.8 in the very same season in which he averaged 29.8 points per game. Robinson is certainly a better all round player than Malone and though it’s a close match up he’ll be figured to come out on top. He had the size advantage on Malone, he was also stronger than Malone something which not many can boast about couple that with the fact that he’s one of the most complete players ever we’d see him coming away with the upper hand in this one.
Bench

Guards

John Starks 6’3 180, Tom Gola 6’6 205, Dick McGuire 6’0 180 vs Gus Williams 6’2 175 and Don Buse 6’4 190

Quite honestly I see no way they win this match-up. First up would be the huge question of how McGuire’s and Gola’s game would translate in a game such as this. At the very least McGuire is an extremely underwhelming back up to Paul and will be eaten alive by Gus Williams. Gus a player who can effectively player either the 1 or the 2 was solid on both ends of the floor and was an extremely clutch player for his teams over the years leading the 79 Sonics to a title as their team’s best player (http://http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/Swashcuff/Basketball/GusWilliams.jpg). Don Buse is one of the greatest defensive guards to ever play the game and is a perfect complement to Gus off the bench because just like Gus he can effectively play both the 1 and the 2. As a matter of a fact he is an outstanding distributor and given the many options he’d have on this team he’s only going to be more effective in that regard.

John Starks is a quality two way player for them but even with help from Gola and McGuire there is no way they can handle both Gus Williams and Don Buse.

Forwards

Connie Hawkins 6’8 210, Tommy Heinsohn 6’7 210 and Toni Kuckoc 6’10 192 vs Rudy Gay 6’9 220, Hedo Turkoglu 6’10 220, Troy Murphy 6’11 245 and Cedric Maxwell 6’8 205

When our reserve SFs are bigger than all 3 of their reserve PF/Cs we know that they are surely in for a hurting. Not only are we bigger but we’re better. In Hedo we have a player who spreads the floor very well among the many other things he brings to the table for us. He’s also the only player in the history of the game to average 19, 5 and 5 on 40% shooting from the 3. That kind of versatility at his size is what would be ideal for us. He matches Kukoc in every aspect and even betters him in some. Gay brings athleticism and instant offense. Also spreads the floor well. Murphy also brings even more spacing and added to that is the fact that he is an incredible rebounder. We certainly won’t be missing a beat in that regard and is a perfect complement to Maxwell and O’Neal. Lastly at the F we have Cedric Maxwell, the most efficient scoring F in this history of the NBA and a former finals MVP winner on a team that featured Larry Bird. Maxwell scored 24 points against the Los Angeles Lakers in the decisive game-seven victory during the 1984 NBA Finals. Before the game, he told his teammates to "climb on my back, boys." That alone tells of the kind of leader and performer that he is.

We just have too many different weapons that can be used in any situation at any point against them for them to even wish to have a shot in the matchup of the bench Fs.

Center

Jim Pollard 6’4 185 vs Kendrick Perkins 6’10 280

Pollard would just be eaten alive. He’s smaller than our starting PG and he’s going to be their reserve C. Really? Perkins literally has 6 inches and 100 pounds on him. I don’t think it even makes sense to focus on this matchup so I’d just pay attention to Perkins’ impact. We all know of Perkins defensive worth, tenacity and vigour. When Robinson may be in need of a breather he’ll be there to match up toe to toe with Moses. While Perk may not be the overall defender that D-Rob is he’s no slouch and Moses will have to work just as hard if he intends to get anything done on offense. For defensive purposes Perkins is a perfect reserve since he’s a big body who can and is willing to bang inside with the best of them.
Key points and overall assessment:

First off, I’ll state that our team is bigger, taller, stronger, more athletic and probably faster too. Looking at the different matchups, could you even debate that? I highly doubt it.

But here’s the recap:
PG: 6-0, 175 vs. 6-7, 195 (our advantage: 7 inches, 20 pounds)
SG: 6-4, 198 vs. 6-7, 210 (our advantage: 3 inches, 12 pounds)
SF: 6-6, 190 vs. 6-9, 210 (our advantage: 3 inches, 20 pounds)
PF: 6-8, 215 vs. 6-11, 223 (our advantage: 3 inches, 8 pounds)
C: 6-10, 215 vs. 7-1, 235 (our advantage: 3 inches, 20 pounds)
Bench: (our advantage: combined 16 inches, combined 173 pounds)
Our total advantage: 35 inches, 253 pounds

Obviously, the total advantage is just a cool number that doesn’t mean much. But consider, our advantage in pounds is the weight of Lebron James. Just our advantage, not raw totals. That is staggering. The only way the Magic could possibly make up for that is if they were faster or more athletic, which they are not.

The reason this is so significant is that while the Magic have some good defenders, all of our guys will be able to just shoot over their guys. Another key issue that comes back to size: the Magic backup Center is 6-4! So what if Moses gets into foul trouble against a potent scorer like Robinson? The Magic will be using a 6-4’ C to guard Robinson. Think about that. Meanwhile, if Robinson were to get into foul trouble, we could bring in the tough, gritty and great defender Perkins.

In addition to our size and strength, the best thing our team has going for us is our versatility. All of our players, including our bigs, can run the floor. In addition, they can all play in a halfcourt game too. We’re also excellent up front defensively with Robinson, O’Neal and 11x All-Defensive player Bobby Jones. In the entire history of the NBA, there has only been 1 player who has been to more All-Defensive Teams than Bobby Jones. That’s how good he was. We also can bring in 6x All-D player Don Buse off the bench, who will help us slow down CP3.

Our strategy will be to simply bully the Magic. We’ll post up both Clyde and Penny. Jones will make cuts to the basket to get some easy points and we’ll throw up lobs to Robinson (both Penny and Drexler were great passers), who will simply out jump everyone on the Magic. We’ll also let Robinson face up against Moses and he should be able to drive by him. In addition, we’ll mix it up by occasionally running on the Magic. On the defensive end, we’ll throw a combination of Penny, Clyde and Don Buse at CP3. Between having to guard the much taller Penny and seeing a wide variety of good defenders, CP3 will be worn out by the end of the series. Malone will be guarded by the excellent Robinson and we’ll also let JO double Malone on occasion. This will undoubtedly frustrate Moses and force Buck Williams, Sam Jones or Wilkes to beat us. Does anyone see that happening? And with Jones being great at getting back to his man, even those guys will have trouble getting off shots. The Magic have a nice team but this is a terrible matchup for them. They’re simply too small.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:43 AM
I know the Magic are trying to claim they have better depth than us but how can you take that seriously when their backup C is smaller than our starting PG.....I mean that's just ridiculous. I could give someone who played in the 50s and is 6-8 some benefit of the doubt but 6-4? Cmon.

I honestly think we could win this in 5 because we're just so much bigger, taller, more athletic, etc.

DR_1
11-25-2011, 08:45 AM
Both teams well constructed, good job both GMs. I've got the Sixers in 7.

NYKalltheway
11-25-2011, 08:48 AM
Jim Pollard is not our backup center....

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 10:54 AM
" In Hedo we have a player who spreads the floor very well among the many other things he brings to the table for us. He’s also the only player in the history of the game to average 19, 5 and 5 on 40% shooting from the 3."

Um, ever hear of Larry Bird? :)

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Prime Penny vs. Chris Paul is an interesting matchup.

Quick Question for both:

Magic
You say you can use "multiple strategies" in this series. Can you elaborate?

Sixers
How would you run your offense at the end of close games with Robinson-Drexler-Penny?

Mile High Champ
11-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Still can't believe the Magic feel to 6th in playoff voting. Anoter team that is being punished by the young voters because they have too many "old school" players. Bobby Jones and Buck Williams are being very underrated in this match up by the 76ers. As much as I like both teams, I like the Magic more as they have better balance across the board. Magic in 7 games.

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 02:32 PM
" In Hedo we have a player who spreads the floor very well among the many other things he brings to the table for us. He’s also the only player in the history of the game to average 19, 5 and 5 on 40% shooting from the 3."

Um, ever hear of Larry Bird? :)

That's my bad I take the blame for that I intended to say player who was 6"10 or taller as this link (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=82&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=19&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=4.9&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=4.9&c4stat=fg3_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.4&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws) will show to further illustrate his skill for a player of his size

knicks=love
11-25-2011, 02:38 PM
close matchup, but the magic are smaller at every position, and i just don't think they could manage well with that. sixers in 6.

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 02:59 PM
I know the Magic are trying to claim they have better depth than us but how can you take that seriously when their backup C is smaller than our starting PG.....I mean that's just ridiculous. I could give someone who played in the 50s and is 6-8 some benefit of the doubt but 6-4? Cmon.

I honestly think we could win this in 5 because we're just so much bigger, taller, more athletic, etc.

Gus Williams is by FAR the best bench player on either team and have a real solid shot at being a starter on quite a few teams that were a part of this redraft.

Are they also seriously trying to sell Pollard as there reserve SF?

I also find it absolutely comical that they are using their advantage in championships as part of their case when two of their players were carried to those all of their titles by Bill Russell.

No matter who their back up C is he'll be eaten alive if Moses ever comes out of the game. The notion that they had more depth is quite funny IMO.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:03 PM
Gus Williams is by FAR the best bench player on either team and have a real solid shot at being a starter on quite a few teams that were a part of this redraft.

Are they also seriously trying to sell Pollard as there reserve SF?

I also find it absolutely comical that they are using their advantage in championships as part of their case when two of their players were carried to those all of their titles by Bill Russell.

No matter who their back up C is he'll be eaten alive if Moses ever comes out of the game. The notion that they had more depth is quite funny IMO.

By who? Connie Hawkins would do everything but ballgag Perkins out there.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 03:33 PM
By who? Connie Hawkins would do everything but ballgag Perkins out there.

The same Connie Hawkins who's 2 best years came in the FIRST 2 years of the ABA's existence- a league where the competition hadn't quite caught up to the NBA yet.

Also, I'm curious why you think Connie would "ballgag" Perkins? Perk is pretty tough himself, I doubt he'd let anyone ballgag him. Would he do anything offensively? No but thats not the point of Perk.

Also, with guys like Murphy and Hedo, their bigs would have to guard out to the 3 point line, which would open up some lanes to drive. And Gus would definitely use that to his advantage.

As Swashcuff said earlier, Gus is a quality player who really could start in this re-draft if more people knew about him:
Starting center, Jack Sikma said, "We really weren't able to open it up tonight without Gus."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=u1UaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WicEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5953,742604&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gqpfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nTIMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2064,1864044&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qksgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aacEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1308,3775073&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=y_lLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oe4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3328,3727790&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LYdUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PY8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4511,5090231&dq=gus+williams&hl=en

A number of clutch shots during that season, helping to lead that Sonics team. I don't see anyone on his bench who compares to Gus.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:49 PM
The same Connie Hawkins who's 2 best years came in the FIRST 2 years of the ABA's existence- a league where the competition hadn't quite caught up to the NBA yet.

Also, I'm curious why you think Connie would "ballgag" Perkins? Perk is pretty tough himself, I doubt he'd let anyone ballgag him. Would he do anything offensively? No but thats not the point of Perk.

Also, with guys like Murphy and Hedo, their bigs would have to guard out to the 3 point line, which would open up some lanes to drive. And Gus would definitely use that to his advantage.

As Swashcuff said earlier, Gus is a quality player who really could start in this re-draft if more people knew about him:
Starting center, Jack Sikma said, "We really weren't able to open it up tonight without Gus."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=u1UaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WicEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5953,742604&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gqpfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nTIMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2064,1864044&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qksgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aacEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1308,3775073&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=y_lLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oe4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3328,3727790&dq=gus+williams&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LYdUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PY8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4511,5090231&dq=gus+williams&hl=en

A number of clutch shots during that season, helping to lead that Sonics team. I don't see anyone on his bench who compares to Gus.

Here's a guy who was blackballed by the NBA, finally got into the ABA and dominated. Then the leagues merged and what happens? The same Connie Hawkins then entered the NBA at 27 and his first season made All-NBA 1st team averaging 21ppg/9rpg/4apg on 49%FG/56%TS. He then made 3 more consecutive all-star teams. Perkins hasn't and will never sniff that kind of success in the pros.

I also don't understand why the hype over Gus Williams? Isn't he only going to get 10 minutes off your bench or are you now re-shuffling your rotation and benching Clyde longer?

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 03:56 PM
By who? Connie Hawkins would do everything but ballgag Perkins out there.

I never mentioned anything about the match up of reserve Cs. Who's going to guard the paint against our onslaught when Moses is out of the game? What if he and Williams are both out of the game at the same time. Are they going to stand a chance at defending against Gus, Gay, Hedo and Maxwell?

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:02 PM
I also find it absolutely comical that they are using their advantage in championships as part of their case when two of their players were carried to those all of their titles by Bill Russell.


All of their players were carried to championships other than Moses Malone.

Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn obviously piggybacked Russell to all those championships. I mean they was necessary to win those ships but lets make no mistake: Russell was clearly the #1 and the engine that made that machine go. Also, it's worth noting that both of them always played with either Havlicek or Cousy, who are both usually considered higher among the pantheon of all-time greats. Let's also not forget Sharman was on some of those teams too. However, Jones and Heinsohn were both the #2's at some point, so I'll give them that.

Tom Gola was carried to his lone championship by Neil Johnston and Paul Arizin.

Wilkes was the #2 (arguably actually) to Rick Barry's championship team. And of course, he hopped on Magic and Kareem's back for the last 2 ships.

Toni Kukoc, do I really need to go into detail here? MJ, Pippen

Jim Pollard literally hopped on George Mikan's back to a number of ships.

Connie Hawkins did actually lead a team to a ship, but lets not forget that his ship came in the 1st year of the ABA before Rick Barry had entered the league among other missing stars.

So we're really looking at Moses, Sam Jones and Tommy as main contributors to the ship teams with Jones and Tommy clearly being #2's. I think the championship argument is overused here, especially when you consider context.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Here's a guy who was blackballed by the NBA, finally got into the ABA and dominated. Then the leagues merged and what happens? The same Connie Hawkins then entered the NBA at 27 and his first season made All-NBA 1st team averaging 21ppg/9rpg/4apg on 49%FG/56%TS. He then made 3 more consecutive all-star teams. Perkins hasn't and will never sniff that kind of success in the pros.


Right but that doesn't change the fact that he dominated the ABA in its first 2 years, before the talent level had risen. I'm not saying he wasn't a good player but it's a fact that his 2 best years came in the less talented ABA. I assume thats the peak that the Magic would like to use.

Also, the leagues merged in 76 which was Connie's last year. So Connie didn't play in the post-merger NBA. I'll give you that Connie was very good in the NBA in his 3rd season but his 2 best seasons were still in the ABA. And his 3rd season, he finished 10th in the NBA in WS, which is very good but hardly dominating.

Also, in regards to his 1st team All-NBA, do you really think Connie deserved that over Hondo (who had him beat in both PER and Win Shares)?

Anyways, you're right, Perk won't sniff those accomplishments but thats not what he's there for. He's there for some bench defense and to help out should D-Rob get into foul trouble. I think we can agree that Perk is a better defender (vs. Moses) then Hawkins would be (vs. D-Rob). These are the 2 guys who would be coming in should 1 of the Centers get into foul trouble.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 04:15 PM
I never mentioned anything about the match up of reserve Cs. Who's going to guard the paint against our onslaught when Moses is out of the game? What if he and Williams are both out of the game at the same time. Are they going to stand a chance at defending against Gus, Gay, Hedo and Maxwell?

I get your point. Your interior defense is more stable with your bigman rotation. I just don't know if in an all-time redraft I would really call Rudy Gay and Hedo Turkoglu part an "onslaught." :laugh: He'd be able to keep Buck or Moses in for basically the whole game with the exception of maybe 1/3 of a quarter and I doubt you'll go ballistic and win the series in that 4 minute spurt against Hawkins/Heinsohn.


All of their players were carried to championships other than Moses Malone.

Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn obviously piggybacked Russell to all those championships. I mean they was necessary to win those ships but lets make no mistake: Russell was clearly the #1 and the engine that made that machine go. Also, it's worth noting that both of them always played with either Havlicek or Cousy, who are both usually considered higher among the pantheon of all-time greats. Let's also not forget Sharman was on some of those teams too. However, Jones and Heinsohn were both the #2's at some point, so I'll give them that.

Tom Gola was carried to his lone championship by Neil Johnston and Paul Arizin.

Wilkes was the #2 (arguably actually) to Rick Barry's championship team. And of course, he hopped on Magic and Kareem's back for the last 2 ships.

Toni Kukoc, do I really need to go into detail here? MJ, Pippen

Jim Pollard literally hopped on George Mikan's back to a number of ships.

Connie Hawkins did actually lead a team to a ship, but lets not forget that his ship came in the 1st year of the ABA before Rick Barry had entered the league among other missing stars.

So we're really looking at Moses, Sam Jones and Tommy as main contributors to the ship teams with Jones and Tommy clearly being #2's. I think the championship argument is overused here, especially when you consider context.

Being #2's and #3's definately gives validity to using championships in my opinion. It's unrealistic to expect us to be counting only championships as the #1 player. How could we possibly build a team that way in a 30 team redraft? Maybe he's exaggerating the edge but you did the same thing by adding up every 2 inch height and 10 pound weight difference.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 04:18 PM
Right but that doesn't change the fact that he dominated the ABA in its first 2 years, before the talent level had risen. I'm not saying he wasn't a good player but it's a fact that his 2 best years came in the less talented ABA. I assume thats the peak that the Magic would like to use.

Also, the leagues merged in 76 which was Connie's last year. So Connie didn't play in the post-merger NBA. I'll give you that Connie was very good in the NBA in his 3rd season but his 2 best seasons were still in the ABA. And his 3rd season, he finished 10th in the NBA in WS, which is very good but hardly dominating.

Also, in regards to his 1st team All-NBA, do you really think Connie deserved that over Hondo (who had him beat in both PER and Win Shares)?

Is any of that really relevant in the discussion of whose team is better? He's going up against Kendrick freaking Perkins. Do you believe Perkins would ever make an All-Star team over Hondo? No it'd be absurd. In the same way that it's absurd to think Perkins could play Hawkins to even a draw. Hawk would eat his lunch and Perk would get table scraps.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 04:18 PM
I like both teams and I think they both made decent arguments (although I disagreed with a lot of the 76ers' write-up), but I like the way the Magic match up against the 76ers and I think they're much deeper.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:19 PM
I also don't understand why the hype over Gus Williams? Isn't he only going to get 10 minutes off your bench or are you now re-shuffling your rotation and benching Clyde longer?

No, Gus would probably get the majority of minutes when either Clyde or Penny goes to the bench. But the Magic were attacking our depth, so we're defending it. However, Clyde and Penny would get most of the minutes.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Being #2's and #3's definately gives validity to using championships in my opinion. It's unrealistic to expect us to be counting only championships as the #1 player. How could we possibly build a team that way in a 30 team redraft? Maybe he's exaggerating the edge but you did the same thing by adding up every 2 inch height and 10 pound weight difference.

Except our height advantage has to do with the actual matchup whereas the championship experience won't help until the conference finals at least. We're in the 1st round right now. All of our guys have advanced out of the first round as #1s. The Magic have mostly #2 guys.


Is any of that really relevant in the discussion of whose team is better? He's going up against Kendrick freaking Perkins. Do you believe Perkins would ever make an All-Star team over Hondo? No it'd be absurd. In the same way that it's absurd to think Perkins could play Hawkins to even a draw. Hawk would eat his lunch and Perk would get table scraps.

What's your problem with Perk? He's a good defender. And Perkins didn't play in the same time as Hondo :confused: Connie actually made an all-NBA 1st team over Hondo. You were using that too boost his accomplishments, and I was simply saying it was probably an unjustified 1st-team.

Perk isn't trying to score is he? He's just there to defend. I don't see why he couldn't defend Hawkins or at least limit his damage.

Anyways, this is not really relevant, my main point was this:

He's there for some bench defense and to help out should D-Rob get into foul trouble. I think we can agree that Perk is a better defender (vs. Moses) then Hawkins would be (vs. D-Rob). These are the 2 guys who would be coming in should 1 of the Centers get into foul trouble.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Except our height advantage has to do with the actual matchup whereas the championship experience won't help until the conference finals at least. We're in the 1st round right now. All of our guys have advanced out of the first round as #1s. The Magic have mostly #2 guys.

I'd say Paul and Moses are pretty damn solid No. 1s. Also, I think you're REALLY underrating Jones in your write-up. The guy was the No. 1 scorer on several of those championship teams. It's completely unfair to say he "piggybacked" to his championships, when he was often the go-to scorer on those teams. If anything, Drexler "piggybacked" to get his only championship with Hakeem. To even hint that he might have been the best player on that 95 Rockets team is a joke...

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:40 PM
I'd say Paul and Moses are pretty damn solid No. 1s. Also, I think you're REALLY underrating Jones in your write-up. The guy was the No. 1 scorer on several of those championship teams. It's completely unfair to say he "piggybacked" to his championships, when he was often the go-to scorer on those teams. If anything, Drexler "piggybacked" to get his only championship with Hakeem. To even hint that he might have been the best player on that 95 Rockets team is a joke...

Paul and Moses are their only #1s, the rest are #2s. And maybe piggybacked is a strong word but come on, Bill Russell was quite obviously the clear #1 and the main reason the Celtics won those ships. Heck, Jones even admitted that he could slack off on defense because he knew Bill Russell was behind him guarding the paint. And he really can't do that here. Moses is a good defender but he's no Bill Russell. So that is something to consider here. I'd take Clyde over Jones as the superior defender because Jones never really had to worry about defense.

When did we hint that Clyde was the best player on the 95 Rockets team? All we said was that he led the team in playoff Win Shares (which he did), which is quite the accomplishment considering Hakeem was on the team. It shows that Clyde was a big part of that ship team. In no way did we say he was the #1 on that team.

And if you're going to say Clyde piggybacked Hakeem, how did Sam Jones not piggyback Bill Russell? I'll admit, the piggyback word was too strong my main point about Jones not focusing as much on D because of Russell is still true.


I like both teams and I think they both made decent arguments (although I disagreed with a lot of the 76ers' write-up), but I like the way the Magic match up against the 76ers and I think they're much deeper.

How so? Besides the Sam Jones and Clyde comments which you've already said you disagreed with. What else? Also, how is their team much deeper? You're really selling our bench short. We have a little of everything off the bench and Maxwell was a Finals MVP as well as Gus leading the Sonics as the #1 on the team.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 04:55 PM
Paul and Moses are their only #1s, the rest are #2s. And maybe piggybacked is a strong word but come on, Bill Russell was quite obviously the clear #1 and the main reason the Celtics won those ships. Heck, Jones even admitted that he could slack off on defense because he knew Bill Russell was behind him guarding the paint. And he really can't do that here. Moses is a good defender but he's no Bill Russell. So that is something to consider here. I'd take Clyde over Jones as the superior defender because Jones never really had to worry about defense.
Bill Simmons actually thinks Sam Jones is the better player than Drexler, and while he's an obvious homer, he has a case when talking about postseason clutchness. He listed 10 different cases of Jones' clutchness in the postseason in his book. Defensively, he's not great, but I think you're overrating Drexler's defense a little bet, as well.


And if you're going to say Clyde piggybacked Hakeem, how did Sam Jones not piggyback Bill Russell? I'll admit, the piggyback word was too strong my main point about Jones not focusing as much on D because of Russell is still true.
Because Sam Jones was always on those Celtics teams and was the No. 1 scorer on those teams multiple times. Drexler needed Hakeem to get his ring, and would not have been able to do it otherwise. Is it unfair because Jones always had that much talent around him? Yes, but we have no way to know how Jones would have fared without a player of Russell's caliber.


How so? Besides the Sam Jones and Clyde comments which you've already said you disagreed with. What else? Also, how is their team much deeper? You're really selling our bench short. We have a little of everything off the bench and Maxwell was a Finals MVP as well as Gus leading the Sonics as the #1 on the team.
I like Maxwell and Gus Williams, but Hawkins, Heinsohn, Starks and Kukoc might be the best bench in this game. It has a little bit of everything, and I'm just a huge fan.

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 05:00 PM
I'd say Paul and Moses are pretty damn solid No. 1s. Also, I think you're REALLY underrating Jones in your write-up. The guy was the No. 1 scorer on several of those championship teams. It's completely unfair to say he "piggybacked" to his championships, when he was often the go-to scorer on those teams. If anything, Drexler "piggybacked" to get his only championship with Hakeem. To even hint that he might have been the best player on that 95 Rockets team is a joke...

This notion that the Sixers are hinting that Clyde was the best player on that team is utterly ridiculous. If that is what you gathered from our assessment then you really need to recheck you understanding of any write up.

We simply pointed out a fact. Have you ever seen MWC, PSK or myself say at any time that because you lead a team in WS that you're the team's best player?

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 06:14 PM
Bill Simmons actually thinks Sam Jones is the better player than Drexler, and while he's an obvious homer, he has a case when talking about postseason clutchness. He listed 10 different cases of Jones' clutchness in the postseason in his book. Defensively, he's not great, but I think you're overrating Drexler's defense a little bet, as well.


Because Sam Jones was always on those Celtics teams and was the No. 1 scorer on those teams multiple times. Drexler needed Hakeem to get his ring, and would not have been able to do it otherwise. Is it unfair because Jones always had that much talent around him? Yes, but we have no way to know how Jones would have fared without a player of Russell's caliber.


I like Maxwell and Gus Williams, but Hawkins, Heinsohn, Starks and Kukoc might be the best bench in this game. It has a little bit of everything, and I'm just a huge fan.

I actually have Simmons' book and have been reading it. Great book but in this case, I think he's an obvious homer. I do feel the need to mention that Clyde has taken 2 different teams to the NBA finals and was the #2 on that 3rd team that won.

1st Finals for Clyde: 26.4/7.8/6.2 on 59.8% TS%
2nd Finals for Clyde: 24.8/7.5/5.3 on around 53% TS%
3rd Finals for Clyde: 21.5/9.5/6.8 on 56% TS%

As you can see, very good Finals #'s. In his 1st Finals, he was being guarded by Joe Dumars too. So consider that. His 2nd finals, he wasn't nearly as efficient but his overall playoff run was better. And again, being guarded by MJ. While Terry Porter was a big part of those teams, there's no mistaking the fact that Clyde was the #1. He was the high volume scorer and he was a good passer/rebounder as well. Also, in the Finals run with Hakeem, Clyde was very efficient posting an ORtg of 120 on a 23.5% USG%.

Jones was the leading scorer on those Celtic teams 4 times in the regular season and 3 times in the postseason. He was the leading scorer in both regular season and postseason in the same season twice. That is multiple times but not for all of his championships.

Also, Clyde was pretty damn good from 90-92 in the postseason. Of players who used 25% of their possessions in the playoffs in that time period (25% USG%, 90-92 postseason), only 4 players had higher ORtgs:
MJ (USG- 35.5, ORtg- 120)
Barkley (USG- 25.9, ORtg- 121)
Karl Malone (USG- 29.2, ORtg- 116)
Danny Manning (USG- 25.1, ORtg- 116)- however Manning played in 5 postseason games in that stretch, totaling 194 minutes

Terry Cummings had the same ORtg as Clyde with a lower USG%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=Y&year_min=1990&year_max=1992&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=usg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=25.0&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=100&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=off_rtg

Green_Monster
11-25-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm with Mile High Champ. The Magic are going to lose this one just because they have "Old School" players. But either way it was a close match up.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 06:36 PM
I like Maxwell and Gus Williams, but Hawkins, Heinsohn, Starks and Kukoc might be the best bench in this game. It has a little bit of everything, and I'm just a huge fan.

Why no love for Don Buse? He was a 4x All-NBA 1st team D guy and a 2x All-ABA 1st team D guy. Obviously, a great defender. And his 75-76 season was pretty good:


Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS ▾
1975-76 25 INA ABA 84 40.2 4.8 10.6 .451 0.9 2.5 .346 2.1 2.6 .814 1.1 2.8 3.8 8.2 4.1 0.4 1.9 2.3 12.5


Season Age Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS ▾ WS/48
1975-76 25 INA ABA 84 3380 16.7 .534 .492 2.3 6.6 4.3 25.5 4.6 0.5 13.9 12.5 117 101 6.0 4.6 10.6 0.150

He also led the league in minutes played in that season- yes more than Dr. J or Artis Gilmore. Led the ABA (and then NBA the following year) in assists per game and steals per game. Led the ABA in Ast% in 75-76, led the ABA (and NBA the following year) in Stl%. Also, he was on 10 different playoff teams.

The biggest + for him is that he's a great defender. Again, someone we can throw on CP3. 6x All-1st team D Depending on the way the game is going, either he or Gus could come in and guard CP3. If we need more offense, we'll bring in Gus. If we need to slow down CP3, we'll bring in Buse. And considering his All-D teams and the fact that he has a career DRtg of 103 (as well as 3 different seasons with DRtgs <100), he should definitely be able to limit CP3 when he's in the game.


but I like the way the Magic match up against the 76ers and I think they're much deeper.

BTW, why do you think the Magic match up well with us? In their write-up, all they went on about was how they had a bunch of HOFers, lots of championships, more MVP awards, etc. But they didn't say anything about matching up.

Also, something I think we could do is put Bobby Jones on Sam Jones and then put Clyde on Wilkes. Clyde, as pointed out in the write-up, would still be tall enough to guard Wilkes. And Bobby, being the excellent defender that he is, could shut down Sam Jones.

NYKalltheway
11-26-2011, 12:04 AM
I forgot to write more on the matchup truth be told... rather too late here. Went with the championships and hall of famers since I've figured:

a) there would be more of those who'd read the write ups and have no opinion on most of these guys so they'd be tempted to check on each and everyone of them just to see who won all these 33 championships since all they know is CP3 and possibly Starks, Kukoc, Buck and Moses(not as a player, just as a name of a former great)

b) people on PSD have proven me that they care more on i) player's name ii) player's titles iii) player's accolades. Figured this was good enough to persuade those who believed that a David Robinson and Clyde Drexler duo was superior to a deep & balanced team.

I should have talked more on the matchup but I saw the other 3/6 matchup posted already and thought it'd be too late so rushed this in. I'd have a 3 page write up if I knew I had more time.

KoB, "multiple stategies". I'll give you some examples. Drexler is on fire, Sam Jones is on fire too, well defense > offense so John Starks enters the court along with Toni Kukoc to seriously spread the floor and Starks will stick like glue on Drexler. Drexler himself knows it's not as easy scoring on Starks than most players he ever faced. Another would be Moses + Hawkins if it turns out that we need scoring and we can limit the touches D Rob gets in the paint, so sacrifice some interior D and hustle for crazy offense. I can carry on but it's no use really. Versatility and rotation is an option that could kill this matchup in our favor but pure NBA fans aren't ready for that type of basketball yet, where stars = win ;)

PatsSoxKnicks
11-26-2011, 12:36 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=drexlcl01&p2=starkjo01

Clyde and Starks matched up 17 times. Clyde's #'s were around his career averages. Unfortunately, I don't think this is really an accurate representation as Starks barely got any playing time in Clyde's best seasons when he was in his prime and later when Starks did better, Clyde was older. Perhaps you could say the #'s evened out but Clyde's #'s aren't really different than his career #'s.

The biggest problem with this comparison is that Starks came into the league 5 years later, so obviously, their respective primes' were at different points.

KnicksorBust
11-26-2011, 12:49 AM
I probably spent way more time on this than I should have but I wanted to give it my full attention. I liked the Magic a lot but Sixers in 7.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-26-2011, 04:00 AM
I probably spent way more time on this than I should have but I wanted to give it my full attention. I liked the Magic a lot but Sixers in 7.

No problem, since you voted for the right team :D