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PocketKings
11-23-2011, 11:15 PM
NBA All Time Redraft Voting!

The following teams have been assembled and are now playing each other in a fantasy first round match up. For this game please assume that all players are in their primes and playing at the top of their game. Injuries are not a factor for this game as every single player is playing at his best.

Please take the time to read the write ups and put some thought into your vote as many of the GM’s in this spent a lot of time on this game.

No this obviously isn’t real.

If you think it’s stupid go to another thread.

Other than that have fun and argue for whom you believe has the better team.

Houston Rockets

Rockets Depth Chart:
Depth Chart:
PG: Walt Frazier (38) / Kirk Hinrich (10) / Mo Williams
SG: Michael Cooper (32) / Kirk Hinrich (10) / Don Chaney (6)
SF: Dominique Wilkins (38) / Lamar Odom (10) / Antoine Walker
PF: Lamar Odom (22) / Otis Thorpe (20) / Christian Laettner (6)
C: Robert Parish (34) / Brad Miller (10) / Otis Thorpe (4)

Minnesota Muskies

Muskies Depth Chart:
Depth Chart:
PG- Oscar Robertson / Eric Snow / K.C. Jones
SG- Jeff Hornacek / Cuttino Mobley / K.C. Jones
SF- Bernard King / Chuck Person / Wally Szczerbiak
PF- Willis Reed / Zach Randolph / Elden Campbell
C- Dikembe Mutombo / Elden Campbell / Willis Reed

Rockets Write-Up:

PG: Frazier vs. Oscar - If Lebron never gets a ring as a No. 1, how would you view him? Because that’s essentially Oscar: a hyper talented stat machine who was a freak athlete, but never clutch enough to get it done in the postseason. His postseason numbers are nothing to laugh at, but compared to Frazier (11th all-time in career WS/48, posted a 36/19/7/5 in game 7 of the 1970 Finals), they pale in comparison, and it wasn’t until he paired up with Kareem at age 32 did he win a title as a second fiddle. And, sure, Oscar has the numbers, but Frazier was considered one of the most clutch players of his era, and one of the greatest defensive guards in NBA history. Oscar could use his size and speed to dominate most back courts, but not against the 6’4” Frazier who had incredibly fast hands. Oscar wasn’t a bad defender, but he certainly wasn’t in Frazier’s class. Give me Oscar in the regular season and Frazier in the playoffs, but in a seven-game series, I say they cancel each other out. Edge: Even

SG: Cooper vs. Hornacek – Hornacek was a good No. 3 in Utah, while Cooper was a defensive specialist for five championship teams in LA and one of the few guards to ever win defensive player of the year award (in 87). In 2008, Larry Bird admitted that Michael Cooper could defend him better than anyone else in the league, which is why he can switch off between Hornacek and King when I need him to, as well as hit the occasional 3-pointer or jump shot when open. Hornacek is the same player, although nowhere near as long or disruptive defensively, but certainly a better shooter and scorer. But I ask this question… If Bird said Cooper defended him better than any other player, what would Cooper have done to a No. 3 guy like Hornacek? The Muskies get the edge in terms of talent, but when Cooper is on Hornacek, I’ve essentially neutralized a scoring threat. Edge: Muskies

SF: Wilkins vs. King- This is a fairly even matchup for the most part. They’re mediocre defenders, nearly identical sizes, high volume scorers and accomplished next to nothing in the postseason. But if you take away King’s magical 84-85 season (in which he only played 55 games), he just doesn’t come close to the Human Highlight Reel. Despite playing 200 more games in his career, Nique posted superior stats in nearly every single category of importance with the exception of efficiency. But Nique also posted a more consistently high USG% throughout his career, was capable of hitting the occasional 3-pointer and was an absolute monster in transition. Nique also gets the edge on the glass, in steals and in blocks by a fairly significant margin. If you need a go-to scorer, either guy gets it done, but Wilkins does it better and does things aside from scoring. Edge: Rockets

PF: Odom vs. Reed – I’m not going to tell you that Lamar Odom is a better player than Willis Reed, but I am going question how the two would match up in an NBA game today. Reed was a great low post scorer, defender in the paint and clutch big man. But we’re talking about a 6’9” center with career injury concerns going up against a freakishly athletic 6’10” PF who dribbles and runs the lane like a PG. Defensively, if I’ve got Odom 20 feet from the basket, how is Reed utilizing his strength defensively? He doesn’t. Pulling Reed from the basket makes it easier for Odom to take him off the dribble and opens spacing for the other players. Also, defensively, I don’t have to put Odom on Reed. I can play the 7’1” monster Robert Parish on Reed and let Odom go up against the offensively inept Mutombo. So, while Reed is certainly a better, I don’t see this as an area of weakness, but as a way to utilize matchups on both ends of the floor to make it a strength. Edge: Muskies

C: Parish vs. Mutombo –Mutombo was a great defender and a better shot blocker, but the guy wasn’t winning any races or putting up 30 on you. Defensively, I’m not concerned with him (not impressed by a .518 FG% since he never shot outside of five feet), which is why I can place Odom on him. And just like Odom and Reed, Parish’s mid range game provides floor spacing for the rest of the team. Parish’s high arching jump shot was tailor made against a long player like Mutombo and his patented, lightning quick “back to the basket, spin to my left and finish with a right hand dunk” is pretty much unstoppable and would be an asset against Mutombo, who wasn’t exactly speedy. Edge: Rockets

Bench: Aside from Randolph, no one scares me offensively on that bench. His only PG is Eric Snow, his primary scorers are the inefficient, undersized Cuttino Mobley and Randolph, who’s really only had one great year. And defensively, the only guy who can handle himself is Snow and maybe Campbell. Also, It bothers me that Campbell is his only backup center to Mutombo, who I’ve seen get into his fair share of foul situations. The Rockets, on the other hand, have a freak athlete at PF who will see probably 25-30 minutes a game in Thorpe (second best player on the 94 Rockets team), one of the most versatile defenders and elite 3-point shooters in the league in Hinrich, a solid passer and outside shooting big man with a mean streak in Miller and another defensive specialist on championship teams in Don Chaney. Laettner, Williams and Walker will all see limited time, but provide a little something different on the offensive end of the floor. My bench is more talented, more versatile and provides more options on both ends of the floor. Edge: Rockets

Intangibles: My starting five won a combined 13 rings, while my bench chipped in another three. I have guys who knew their roles on very good teams. Frazier and Parish took over the game when they absolutely had to, Odom is the versatile big man who defended or could score when needed and Cooper is the defensive specialist surrounding the volume scorer. Between Oscar, King and Reed, I question who the No. 1 is on that team, and I don’t know how well those guys would get along. It’s also fairly common knowledge that Oscar was a hard player to get along with, and nobody wanted to play with him or be around him because he was full of himself. Injuries also played a factor in the end of King and Reed’s careers. Edge: Rockets

Overall: Offensively, I compare Wilkins and Frazier to Lebron and Wade. For the first three and a half quarters, Wilkins is the primary scorer, but Frazier takes over when it matters most. I have four guys in my starting five with career USG% higher than 20 and a TS% higher than .535. I have three starters who can shoot a 3-pointer (at least 31%), including Odom who provides floor spacing that few big men can in this game. Three players (Frazier, Wilkins, Odom) are great penetrators and both Odom and Parish are threats in the paint, while Frazier’s uncanny stealing ability and Nique’s high flying dunks would be a joy and a terror in transition. Defensively, I have the best defensive backcourt in the game with a combined 15 all-defensive teams between them. When King gets hot, I can switch Cooper to him to neutralize him and Parish’s length would cause problems for Reed. The Muskies are very talented, but I’ve built a team that knows how to win championships, players that would know their roles and thrive together and an offense that would flow very well together. Prediction: Rockets in six

Muskies Write-Up:

Offensively-
Bernard King will be a focal point for our offense in this series because Dominique Wilkins struggled in his career defensively and King was a scoring machine in his career including averaging 33 points per game in ’84-’85. Walt Frazier matches up as well as anybody in the ReDraft with Oscar Robertson. However the Big O will still get his points and the great thing about him is as much as he scored he is fantastic at getting his teammates involved. Jeff Hornacek will be available to do what he did his whole career. He will knock down open threes off of the penertation of King and Robertson. Another matchup where the Muskies have a clear advantage is the strength of Willis Reed against Lamar Odom. Reed will be able to back down Odom all game and also will dominate him on the boards. Dikembe Mutombo will get put-backs and dunks off of when Parrish is forced to leave him to help on King, Reed, or Robertson.

Defensively-
Defensive matchups for this game will be fluid and change as the game goes but we will start with these matchups:
Walt Frazier (6-4, 200) vs. Jeff Hornacek (6-3, 190)
Michael Cooper (6-5, 170) vs. Bernard King (6-7, 205)
Dominique Wilkins (6-7, 200) vs. Oscar Robertson (6-5, 205)
Lamar Odom (6-10, 220) vs. Willis Reed (6-9, 235)
Robert Parrish (7-0, 230) vs. Dikembe Mutombo (7-2, 245)

Jeff Hornacek is 31st all-time in steals and is a very solid defender. He should be able to do a good job on Walt Frazier. I will give Bernard King an easier assignment on defense and let him concentrate on offense. Oscar Robertson will put the clamps on Dominique Wilkins. He has the size and strength to muscle up with him but even more importantly if Wilkins tries to put the ball on the floor it will be gone with the quick hands of Robertson. Also if Wilkins or Frazier try to get into the lane they will have the best shot-blocker of all-time in Dikembe Mutombo to deal with. Willis Reed will also block plenty of shots.

Bench-
The Muskie bench does not have huge names but they each do their roles well. Eric Snow and K.C. Jones provide perimeter defense. Zach Randolph provides interior scoring and rebounding. Elden Campbell supplies the interior defense and size. Cuttino Mobley, Wally Szczerbiak, and Chuck Person provide wing scoring and shooting.

mightybosstone
11-23-2011, 11:30 PM
:sigh: My entire writeup was not posted because apparently the second half was not sent to PK. I hope he gets it up soon...

Edit: Fixed. Thanks Pk, you sexy devil, you! ;)

Swashcuff
11-23-2011, 11:33 PM
:sigh: My entire writeup was posted because apparently the second half was not sent to PK. I hope he gets it up soon...

I was wondering because I know you did say that you had a long write-up.

Swashcuff
11-23-2011, 11:36 PM
I really like MBT's write ups. I'll be putting some serious thought into this decision now.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-23-2011, 11:56 PM
Wow i agree MBT's write up and the Muskies lack of explanation might have swayed my vote. But i'll wait till tommorrow to see what the muskies have to say and how the rockets counter. THis should be interesting

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 12:07 AM
The Muskies write up is kinda crap. First off, placing Oscar on Wilkins is a horrible idea. He's putting the most important player on his team on my most athletic, most dangerous scorer AND Oscar will be playing 40+ minutes every game because of a lack of a depth on that pitiful bench. Lol at him "putting the clamps" on Nique when he gives up two inches to him and never played against anyone nearly that athletic in his era. Wilkins would put up 30 every night.

And their offensive argument is completely weak. The have only one capable 3-point shooter and no big capable of stretching the floor. And he claims Deke will get put backs when Parish leaves him to play help defense, but why? Parish will be on Reed like white on rice, so that's not even a problem. As for their two main scorers, I'm not sure Oscar and King would coexist, as they both required the ball in their hands to be effective. King's 27.8 USG% (19th all time) is way too high for him to be playing second fiddle to Oscar, who didn't give really start giving up looks until he got paired with Kareem at age 32. And when he DID start giving up looks, his shooting percentages went down. You can blame age, but I have to think not having the ball in his hands more often had something to do with it...

Also, as for the "best shot blocker of all time" comment goes, I'm pretty sure a Mr. Hakeem Olajuwon would beg to differ...

jrice9
11-24-2011, 12:14 AM
Muskies win this one big time imo.

There better at point guard (Robertson has a clear edge on Frazier), shooting guard (its closer here but still edge Muskies) and while Wilkins is better at SF, King in his prime is of similar value, Reed blows away Odom and Mutumbo is the perfect role player for their team and is of similar value to Parish though admittedly a bit worse.

Even factoring in the benches which matter much less with stacked teams Muskies win this one pretty big imo.

PocketKings
11-24-2011, 12:16 AM
This match-up makes me think so hard, I don't like it. :cry:

LOL.

PocketKings
11-24-2011, 12:16 AM
This match-up makes me think so hard, I don't like it. :cry:

LOL.

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 12:25 AM
No need to be bitter. I read your post, considered it, read his considered it and gave my opinion in a brief form.

I even feel his team is better balanced than yours though you have the superior perimeter defense

Fair enough. Although I don't know how you can honestly have read both arguments and still think that they win "easily." The fact that Frazier was more successful than Oscar even though they played in the same era ought to mean something. And before you say something like "Oscar never had Willis Reed," you're right. He had freakin' Kareem for four seasons and only got one title out of it...

Catfish1314
11-24-2011, 12:28 AM
Muskies win this one big time imo.

There better at point guard (Robertson has a clear edge on Frazier), shooting guard (its closer here but still edge Muskies) and while Wilkins is better at SF, King in his prime is of similar value, Reed blows away Odom and Mutumbo is the perfect role player for their team and is of similar value to Parish though admittedly a bit worse.

Even factoring in the benches which matter much less with stacked teams Muskies win this one pretty big imo.

Do you mean in terms of just overall production, or in a one-on-one match-up? Because it's even bolded in his write-up that Parish, not Odom, would be guarding Reed. So even if Reed is a headache for the Rockets in this series, he's not blowing Robert Parish away.

This is awfully close. I was high on the Muskies heading into this but I thought if they faced a team with an exceptional combo of wings, their shaky perimeter defense would get them into trouble. At the same time, Willis Reed does present some mismatch issues for Houston. I'm torn.

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 12:45 AM
This is awfully close. I was high on the Muskies heading into this but I thought if they faced a team with an exceptional combo of wings, their shaky perimeter defense would get them into trouble. At the same time, Willis Reed does present some mismatch issues for Houston. I'm torn.

On which end of the floor? Do you feel like he could score on Parish, or neutralize Odom? Or both?

I feel like he would still get his points against Parish, but it would certainly be more difficult as he didn't face nearly as many legit 7-footers in his era of basketball. And defensively, I really doubt his ability to keep up with Odom for 20-25 minutes at PF. Also, taking him away from the basket limits his ability to defend the paint and leaves it up to Mutombo to handle Parish one on one while trying to keep Walt and Nique out of the lane.

The_Jamal
11-24-2011, 02:36 AM
I'm going to take the Rockets. Iashed Odom in the redraft forum, he does present problems for Reed on offense by taking him away from protecting the basket and have to defend the perimeter. And Because Mutombo doesn't do **** on offense, having Odom guard him takes away the potential huge mismatch of Reed on him. I also hate the idea of Oscar having to guard Dominque which will make Oscar have to work a lot more than he should.

Chacarron
11-24-2011, 04:05 AM
I like that Parish will matchup against Reed at times, and Odom is such a mismatch on offense, it really comes down to how he would perform on that end because nobody in Minnesota's frontcourt can defend him in transition and off the dribble. I also like what Walt Frazier can contribute on both ends of the floor and the defensive presence of a former DPOY in Michael Cooper.

I'm taking the Rockets in 7, great writeup MBT.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-24-2011, 04:10 AM
I probably would've taken the Muskies until I saw both write-ups. Now, I'll think about it much more (not that I wouldn't have) and as of now, I'm actually leaning towards the Rockets. That was a great write-up MBT.

KnicksorBust
11-24-2011, 10:27 AM
This matchup has some many interesting wrinkles. Muskies clearly have more talent but I don't like the way their matching up. Rockets made a great move switching Parish on to Reed and Muskies made a bad move switching Oscar on Dominique. Meanwhile the Rockets also have an elite defensive pg (frazier-payton-robertson) to matchup with the Muskies star player and an elite defensive wing to slow down their toughest scorer. That's a huge benefit for them. On the other end, Willis Reed could handle most PFs but Lamar Odom is an unorthodox opponent for him. However, you'll never get me to say Odom is a mismatch for Reed. That just will never sound right. Tough matchup.

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 11:20 AM
Thank you to everyone who took the time to read the write-up. I know it's long, but I felt like it broke everything down point by point without getting bogged down too much in numbers. I'd really like to see AP come in here and counter some of my points, but I dunno where that guy is. :shrug:

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 11:23 AM
And someone please tell me we're doing the "voters with less than 100 posts don't count" rule. If so, three of his votes don't count. I mean.... one guy who voted has 1 freakin' post!!!

Edit: Also, I found it interesting that only one voter who picked the Muskies has tried stating his case. C'mon K=L, let's hear your argument...

Green_Monster
11-24-2011, 11:23 AM
I picked Muskies. But now that I reread the write-up, I'm starting to regret it. Rockets had a great wright-up! This match-up is so close. I think it could go either way.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 11:51 AM
I think this is the first occasion in which I have witnessed in any of these games (I'm still a noob to these games) that a well structured write up actually seriously swaying the so many voters opinion. Just goes to show how important your write up will be if you actually put some effort into it.

Sadds The Gr8
11-24-2011, 11:54 AM
I think this is the first occasion in which I have witnessed in any of these games (I'm still a noob to these games) that a well structured write up actually seriously swaying the so many voters opinion. Just goes to show how important your write up will be if you actually put some effort into it.

yea, because these teams are so evenly matched that's why it's happening.

theheatles
11-24-2011, 11:55 AM
rockets with the upset in 7

xbrackattackx
11-24-2011, 12:14 PM
MBT that was a great write up.



Feel like the muskies thought it was a easy win and went with the cocky easy write up. I think Rockets in 7.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 12:24 PM
I am yet to cast my vote here. I'm quite capable of making a decision on my own but for the sake of these games I'm going to differ to which GM sells his team/ team strategy the best. Thus far MBT is winning this one for me. I think we all would agree that the Muskies are more talented but talent alone shouldn't win you a game.

xbrackattackx
11-24-2011, 12:33 PM
I am yet to cast my vote here. I'm quite capable of making a decision on my own but for the sake of these games I'm going to differ to which GM sells his team/ team strategy the best. Thus far MBT is winning this one for me. I think we all would agree that the Muskies are more talented but talent alone shouldn't win you a game.

Talent wins game, basketball knowledge wins championships.

The_Jamal
11-24-2011, 01:36 PM
Talent isn't enough when the other team has answers for the so called "advantages" Parish on Reed is huge in this series and I think the Muskies made a huge mistake by putaround the ting Oscar on Nique. Add in Odom being able to be extremley effective on Reed who likes to sit around the basket and not be drawn out 20 ft and I like how the Rockets can win this series. I've never been a big fan of the Muskies team anyway and felt they've gotten overrated by a majority of the GM's.

knicks=love
11-24-2011, 02:07 PM
I love how the muskies got 9 votes, but MBT decides to call me out.

U mad?

Eagles4Lyfe
11-24-2011, 02:47 PM
Did you even read his whole posts or just pick out your name and get mad again??

Chacarron
11-24-2011, 02:49 PM
I love how the muskies got 9 votes, but MBT decides to call me out.

U mad?

They only had 7 votes when he posted.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 02:56 PM
I love how the muskies got 9 votes, but MBT decides to call me out.

U mad?

You were part of the re-draft were you not? Well as you'd see he clearly posted in the lounge that his write up was done to appeal to the GMs not the wider PSD base. Also of those 9 votes you are the only one who was actually part of the re-draft all the way through.

knicks=love
11-24-2011, 04:42 PM
Hahah I know chill. I honestly think the muskies could play well against the rockets. I read both write ups and mbt's was insanely good. Nothing against him, I just like the muskies in 7 in a very very close series. I don't have anything against him and yes I know I was in the redraft. Doesn't mean I'm obligated to picking him because of that.

AP=MVP
11-24-2011, 05:50 PM
OK, guys in no way did I overlook the Rockets, I truly love their team as a sleeper in these playoffs, however I do not think they can compete with my group. My Oscar on Dominique defensive setup was just one way among many that I would change up the defense to mess with Dominique who is the only scorer on their team that really scares me. Honestly I will be mixing up the defenses a lot. The most important defender on Dominique is Mutombo because he is the ultimate rim protector against the ultimate driver.

I know I said in my write-up that Dikembe won't be counted on to score inside but if Odom is on him then he will get some touches down low because he will completely outmuscle Odom and should score plenty. He will also completely dominate the boards with Odom on him.

AP=MVP
11-24-2011, 05:52 PM
BTW sorry I didn't get on here sooner but its Thanksgiving weekend and I had to drive home from college yesterday and I tons of homework due next week since its the last week before finals.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-24-2011, 05:53 PM
I'm going with the Rockets. Their write-up convinced me and the Muskies have done nothing to state their case in this thread.

Ebbs
11-24-2011, 09:03 PM
I pushed the wrong button I vote for the muskies.

mightybosstone
11-24-2011, 09:36 PM
I love how the muskies got 9 votes, but MBT decides to call me out.

U mad?

Because at the time, you were the only GM to vote against me and you hadn't made any case whatsoever.

AP=MVP
11-24-2011, 11:31 PM
Someone tell me how these Rockets plan to rebound with me? Dikembe will get so many second chance points in this series with Lamar Odom trying to keep him off the boards.

Also Dikembe will erase many of Wilkins drives thanks to his shot-blocking ability. And the Rockets don't really have any kind of 3 point threat to stretch my defense.

Also you talk in your write-up about Hornacek being the third option in Utah but please don't forget about his superior statistical seasons in Phoenix before that. However I do love that we know his game can complement superstars as he demonstrated in Utah.

Also I appreciate that Walt Frazier is a great player but give me a break, calling him and Oscar an even match-up is simply crazy.

Oscar career stat-line- 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 9.5 apg
Frazier - 18.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 6.1 apg

Oscar's best season- 30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg
Frazier- 23.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg

Also saying he is better in the playoffs is insane too, just because he didn't have as much talent around him, until the end of his career.

Playoffs career best (at least 12 games)
Oscar- 31.8 ppg, 13 rpg, 9 apg
Frazier- 24.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 6.1 apg

Oscar is consistently about 8 points better, at least a couple rebounds better and 4-5 assists better.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 12:00 AM
Oscar career stat-line- 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 9.5 apg
Frazier - 18.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 6.1 apg

Cooper- 8.9/2.8/2.7
Hornacek- 14.5/3.4/4.9

Wilkins- 24.8/6.7/2.5
King- 24.1/6.2/3.5

Odom- 14.6/8.9/4
Reed- 18.7/12.9/1.2

Parish- 14.5/9.1/1.4
Mutombo- 9.8/10.3/1

As demonstrated by the statistics, my guards will dominate scoring and assists, and my bigs just kill on the boards.

P.S. King pretty much matched Dominique stat for stat throughout their careers

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 12:47 AM
I pushed the wrong button I vote for the muskies.

Can a mod please switch this

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 01:16 AM
As demonstrated by the statistics, my guards will dominate scoring and assists, and my bigs just kill on the boards.
Who cares if they "dominate" assists? That doesn't necessarily equal success, and there's a lot more to individual and team matchups than "my players score more points and average more assists than your players." A horrible argument. Also, Odom and Parish are both very good rebounders. And they post very similar TRB% numbers to their opponents.


Wilkins- 24.8/6.7/2.5
King- 24.1/6.2/3.5

P.S. King pretty much matched Dominique stat for stat throughout their careers
Lol! Except, you're using his numbers per 36 minutes and not per game! Nice try, but King dominates Nique at nothing...

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 01:31 AM
Someone tell me how these Rockets plan to rebound with me?
Umm.... How about the fact that Parish in 8th all-time in career rebounds and Odom's TRB% is similar to Reed's? Or the fact that Nique is one of the better rebounding SF of all time? You might win on the boards, but you certainly wouldn't dominate them.


Dikembe will get so many second chance points in this series with Lamar Odom trying to keep him off the boards.
It's not as if Lamar Odom is a terrible rebounder. I don't get where you're getting this from. Also, if your best argument is "my team is going to win because my center rebounds well," I really don't like your chances. A terrible argument....


Also Dikembe will erase many of Wilkins drives thanks to his shot-blocking ability. And the Rockets don't really have any kind of 3 point threat to stretch my defense.
Why? Is he going to never be defending Robert Parish? Because if I'm Nique, I'm driving to the rim and I see Deke leave a wide open Robert Parish under the basket, I'm probably passing off to him instead of going for the layup. This statement shows a general misunderstanding of the game of basketball, IMO.


Also you talk in your write-up about Hornacek being the third option in Utah but please don't forget about his superior statistical seasons in Phoenix before that. However I do love that we know his game can complement superstars as he demonstrated in Utah.
No, I didn't. Because while he put up better numbers in Phoenix, he wasn't exactly the best player on those teams (Tom Chambers, Kevin Johnson) either and the Utah teams were superior to the Phoenix teams.


Also I appreciate that Walt Frazier is a great player but give me a break, calling him and Oscar an even match-up is simply crazy.

Oscar career stat-line- 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 9.5 apg
Frazier - 18.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 6.1 apg

Oscar's best season- 30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg
Frazier- 23.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.8 apg

Also saying he is better in the playoffs is insane too, just because he didn't have as much talent around him, until the end of his career.

Playoffs career best (at least 12 games)
Oscar- 31.8 ppg, 13 rpg, 9 apg
Frazier- 24.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 6.1 apg

Oscar is consistently about 8 points better, at least a couple rebounds better and 4-5 assists better.

WS/48 > PPG as an indicator of a player's worth and Frazier's postseason WS/48 are absolutely superior to Oscar's. And you're conveniently not taking into consideration the two players' defensive abilities whatsoever...

FutureGM
11-25-2011, 02:01 AM
Can a mod please switch this

lol

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:15 AM
Lol! Except, you're using his numbers per 36 minutes and not per game! Nice try, but King dominates Nique at nothing...

Damn, that is obviously my bad. I was looking up numbers when trying to watch football with family. My bad I would never try to do something like that on purpose.

King- 22.5/5.8/3.3
Wilkins- 24.8/6.7/2.5

Still very similar, but I really am sorry for my mistake.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 04:34 AM
and another defensive specialist on championship teams in Don Chaney.

Do I get some credit here? :p

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:40 AM
Umm.... How about the fact that Parish in 8th all-time in career rebounds and Odom's TRB% is similar to Reed's? Or the fact that Nique is one of the better rebounding SF of all time? You might win on the boards, but you certainly wouldn't dominate them.


It's not as if Lamar Odom is a terrible rebounder. I don't get where you're getting this from. Also, if your best argument is "my team is going to win because my center rebounds well," I really don't like your chances. A terrible argument....

Well I have a 6.5 rebounding lead per game among my starters if you check the career averages. Also I have the size advantages at nearly every position.

Walt Frazier (6-4, 200) vs. Oscar Robertson (6-5, 205)
Michael Cooper (6-5, 170) vs. Jeff Hornacek (6-3, 190)
Dominique Wilkins (6-7, 200) vs. Bernard King (6-7, 205)
Lamar Odom (6-10, 220) vs. Willis Reed (6-9, 235)
Robert Parrish (7-0, 230) vs. Dikembe Mutombo (7-2, 245)


Why? Is he going to never be defending Robert Parish? Because if I'm Nique, I'm driving to the rim and I see Deke leave a wide open Robert Parish under the basket, I'm probably passing off to him instead of going for the layup. This statement shows a general misunderstanding of the game of basketball, IMO.

Thank the Lord for help defense. All of my starters except Bernard King are excellent defenders and will be able to help if need be. It is not ideal for Dekembe to be helping on a drive by Wilkins but he certainly and as shown by Wilkins' low assist numbers he is not used to dumping it off to his big man, like a guy who can create like he can should be able to do.

No, I didn't. Because while he put up better numbers in Phoenix, he wasn't exactly the best player on those teams (Tom Chambers, Kevin Johnson) either and the Utah teams were superior to the Phoenix teams.

Good thing he is my 4th offensive option on this team and will be responsible for stretching the defense so his 40% 3 point shooting is mostly what excites me about him.

WS/48 > PPG as an indicator of a player's worth and Frazier's postseason WS/48 are absolutely superior to Oscar's. And you're conveniently not taking into consideration the two players' defensive abilities whatsoever...

I have already stated in my writeup and in a post that I have lots of respect for Frazier's defensive prowess. He is certainly fantastic at it. However even though the Big O isn't quite on his level he is still very good.

Bold

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:49 AM
And don't tell me Dikembe can't provide help defense on one of the best finishers on all-time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24wjS0MbDts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnVk1xyIKic&feature=related

DR_1
11-25-2011, 08:29 AM
Muskies, not even close

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 12:37 PM
And don't tell me Dikembe can't provide help defense on one of the best finishers on all-time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24wjS0MbDts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnVk1xyIKic&feature=related

Right, because clearly two examples proves that Wilkins will be completely incapable of driving the lane and Mutombo will get a block every single time. :eyebrow:

Ya know, for every block like that they just show, there's a play where Deke fouled the player, was too late on the block or got dunked on. Don't believe me? Here's a video of 10 times where it happened, and I'm pretty sure if Joe Smith and Michael Finley can do it, Dominique Wilkins is capable of doing it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtWfCvKeWc8

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 12:38 PM
Muskies, not even close

Reasoning? Did you even read the write-ups?

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Right, because clearly two examples proves that Wilkins will be completely incapable of driving the lane and Mutombo will get a block every single time. :eyebrow:

Ya know, for every block like that they just show, there's a play where Deke fouled the player, was too late on the block or got dunked on. Don't believe me? Here's a video of 10 times where it happened, and I'm pretty sure if Joe Smith and Michael Finley can do it, Dominique Wilkins is capable of doing it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtWfCvKeWc8

A video of top 10 dunks on Mutombo where Malik Rose is #3. :laugh:

Joe Smith #6
T-Mac #2
VC #1

were all bombs. Loved them. That's how you become a DPOY though, not afraid to get dunked on.

stuffo
11-25-2011, 01:40 PM
muskies, not very close

knicks=love
11-25-2011, 02:35 PM
^dupe?

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 02:42 PM
^dupe?

Haha its def not me doing it, I don't want to be accused of anything bad though so can someone check that IP address

PhillyLuver
11-25-2011, 02:46 PM
damn this is getting tight

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 02:49 PM
Right, because clearly two examples proves that Wilkins will be completely incapable of driving the lane and Mutombo will get a block every single time. :eyebrow:

Ya know, for every block like that they just show, there's a play where Deke fouled the player, was too late on the block or got dunked on. Don't believe me? Here's a video of 10 times where it happened, and I'm pretty sure if Joe Smith and Michael Finley can do it, Dominique Wilkins is capable of doing it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtWfCvKeWc8


A video of top 10 dunks on Mutombo where Malik Rose is #3. :laugh:

Joe Smith #6
T-Mac #2
VC #1

were all bombs. Loved them. That's how you become a DPOY though, not afraid to get dunked on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqVrmx3HaTQ&feature=related

VC saying for every one dunk he gets on Mutombo, he got blocked 5-6 times, lol

knicks=love
11-25-2011, 02:52 PM
Haha its def not me doing it, I don't want to be accused of anything bad though so can someone check that IP address

i didn't think it would be. you don't seem like the kind of gm that would do such a thing.


damn this is getting tight

...that's what she said :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqVrmx3HaTQ&feature=related

VC saying for every one dunk he gets on Mutombo, he got blocked 5-6 times, lol

i literally just watched that after i watched the videos he posted hahaha. good argument.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 02:54 PM
16-16

Now its time for Oscar and King to draw the defense and give my clutch shooter an open shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV38gSMuCqA

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 02:57 PM
Please watch all that Hornacek video, even if you don't think with the Big O and King that he will be my clutch scorer. (Just cause he is my favorite player of all-time, Cyclone bias lol)

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that stuffo guy doesn't count but this has officially become a slugfest.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:00 PM
^^

I watched it. He pulled his own cyclone on Shawn Kemp.

stuffo
11-25-2011, 03:08 PM
not a dupe, these threads just caught my eye. i think oscar pretty much dominates this series. walt frazier wouldnt be able to handle him.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 03:21 PM
^^

I watched it. He pulled his own cyclone on Shawn Kemp.

:up:

BTW its obvious this is a close matchup and free throw shooting may make a difference late. My shooters>His shooters

Big O - 84%
Hornacek - 88%
King - 73%
Reed - 75%
Mutombo - 68%

(Hornacek and Robertson will have the ball in their hands in fouling situations)

Frazier - 79%
Cooper - 83%
Wilkins - 81%
Odom- 70%
Parish- 72%

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:23 PM
:up:

BTW its obvious this is a close matchup and free throw shooting may make a difference late. My shooters>His shooters

Big O - 84%
Hornacek - 88%
King - 73%
Reed - 75%
Mutombo - 68%

(Hornacek and Robertson will have the ball in their hands in fouling situations)

Frazier - 79%
Cooper - 83%
Wilkins - 81%
Odom- 70%
Parish- 72%

The infrequently used crunchtime free throw shooting argument. I don't know whether to applaud you or make fun of you.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 03:29 PM
The infrequently used crunchtime free throw shooting argument. I don't know whether to applaud you or make fun of you.

This is a tight series and free throw shooting is important when sealing up the win which is what I am trying to do now.;)

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 04:22 PM
Looks like 16-16. What a comeback. Is there even a deadline for this poll?

knicks=love
11-25-2011, 04:26 PM
10:15 est

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:28 PM
At some point you need to be able to stretch the defense out to the 3 point to open up the lane for penetration.

For King and Robertson, I have Hornacek to draw the defense outside, as well as Szczerbiak, Mobley, and Person off the bench.

The Rockets have no one to draw the defense out in their starters. And Kirk Hinrich is the only one in their 2-deep.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Looks like 16-16. What a comeback. Is there even a deadline for this poll?

Nope, I'm down by 1 because 2 of my votes don't count because they joined after November 1st I guess. :(

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 04:44 PM
At some point you need to be able to stretch the defense out to the 3 point to open up the lane for penetration.

For King and Robertson, I have Hornacek to draw the defense outside, as well as Szczerbiak, Mobley, and Person off the bench.

The Rockets have no one to draw the defense out in their starters. And Kirk Hinrich is the only one in their 2-deep.

What a joke! Odom shot 38 percent from the 3-point line last season and Cooper was a career 34 percent shooter from threes. And Wilkins isn't a great 3-point shooter, but he can hit an open 3. So can Mo Williams, who you conveniently left out. And Hinrich is one of the best 3-point shooters in the league.

If anyone should be concerned about stretching the defense, it's you. You have only one shooter who can even hit a 3-pointer in your starting line up and your big men aren't exactly known for their mid range game. My floor spacing >>>>> your floor spacing.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 04:53 PM
What a joke! Odom shot 38 percent from the 3-point line last season and Cooper was a career 34 percent shooter from threes. And Wilkins isn't a great 3-point shooter, but he can hit an open 3. So can Mo Williams, who you conveniently left out. And Hinrich is one of the best 3-point shooters in the league.

If anyone should be concerned about stretching the defense, it's you. You have only one shooter who can even hit a 3-pointer in your starting line up and your big men aren't exactly known for their mid range game. My floor spacing >>>>> your floor spacing.

Cooper made one 3 per every 2 games in his career. Odom has shot 32% from 3 in his career. Wilkins is the driver you should be trying to open the lane for so I am not concerned about leaving him open, because my defense won't be. Wilkins also only shot 32%.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 05:11 PM
Cooper made one 3 per every 2 games in his career. Odom has shot 32% from 3 in his career. Wilkins is the driver you should be trying to open the lane for so I am not concerned about leaving him open, because my defense won't be. Wilkins also only shot 32%.

Pop quiz... Suppose you have two players in a game shoot ten shots apiece. One shoots 4-10 and only makes twos while the other makes 3-10 and shoots only threes. Who scores more points?

It might seem like a trivial point, but what I'm trying to prove here is that while 31-32 percent from threes isn't great, it's not terrible either, and you wouldn't mind that guy taking a shot from beyond the arc if he's got an open look. And you go ahead and leave Wilkins open. He's shot 34 percent or better from 3s in a season three times in his career and his capable of hitting that shot.

Wade, Iverson and McGrady are all mediocre 3-point shooters, but I bet you wouldn't want to leave them open, either.

Edit: And that's a horrible point about Cooper. Hornacek (the ONLY shooter in your starting five) made only 0.8 3-pointers a game in his career. Does that make him useless from beyond the arc, too?

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 05:33 PM
Pop quiz... Suppose you have two players in a game shoot ten shots apiece. One shoots 4-10 and only makes twos while the other makes 3-10 and shoots only threes. Who scores more points?

It might seem like a trivial point, but what I'm trying to prove here is that while 31-32 percent from threes isn't great, it's not terrible either, and you wouldn't mind that guy taking a shot from beyond the arc if he's got an open look. And you go ahead and leave Wilkins open. He's shot 34 percent or better from 3s in a season three times in his career and his capable of hitting that shot.

Wade, Iverson and McGrady are all mediocre 3-point shooters, but I bet you wouldn't want to leave them open, either.

Edit: And that's a horrible point about Cooper. Hornacek (the ONLY shooter in your starting five) made only 0.8 3-pointers a game in his career. Does that make him useless from beyond the arc, too?

I said Wilkins will never be left open, lol.

I would much rather have one 40% shooter than a 34% and two 31% lol.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 05:38 PM
I said Wilkins will never be left open, lol.
I beg to differ. If you have Oscar guarding him, you'll definitely need help.


I would much rather have one 40% shooter than a 34% and two 31% lol.
Maybe so, but in terms of floor spacing, my team is superior and I don't even think it's debatable. Especially since my PF can hit an open 3, which is a luxury few teams in this game can have.

I'm pretty much done arguing this for a while and have some place to be for a few hours, but good luck to you. I'll see the final results when I get back...

DR_1
11-25-2011, 05:42 PM
Reasoning? Did you even read the write-ups?

Ya I did read the wright-ups. I just think the Muskies have more offense than you have defense, plain and simple. I like Dominique, but I don't get that excited about the rest of your team.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 05:42 PM
I beg to differ. If you have Oscar guarding him, you'll definitely need help.


Haha, this again, I have obviously already stated I will be throwing multiple looks and multiple defenders at him, as I would any team with only one elite offensive player

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 05:46 PM
Haha, this again, I have obviously already stated I will be throwing multiple looks and multiple defenders at him, as I would any team with only one elite offensive player

This is just flat out insulting. Go ahead and take my other other offensive, multiple championship winning players lightly. Fraizer and Parish could burn anyone for 20-25 on a given night if you have that kind of attitude.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Rockets for me. Better defense and depth.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 05:55 PM
This is just flat out insulting. Go ahead and take my other other offensive, multiple championship winning players lightly. Fraizer and Parish could burn anyone for 20-25 on a given night if you have that kind of attitude.

You are always trying to make it seem like I am disrespecting your team, I have said multiple times I respect both players. But Parish averaged 14.5 points a game in his career when he was one of the bigger centers in the league, I highly doubt he averages 20-25 this series or ever gets close to that with Mutombo guarding him.

Walt averaged 18.9 but he wasn't used to facing PGs near the length of the Big O. Plus Mutombo is still guarding the basket for either Wilkins or Frazier's drives.

LA_Raiders
11-25-2011, 06:11 PM
Very close, but i give my vote to the rockets

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 07:01 PM
You are always trying to make it seem like I am disrespecting your team, I have said multiple times I respect both players. But Parish averaged 14.5 points a game in his career when he was one of the bigger centers in the league, I highly doubt he averages 20-25 this series or ever gets close to that with Mutombo guarding him.

Walt averaged 18.9 but he wasn't used to facing PGs near the length of the Big O. Plus Mutombo is still guarding the basket for either Wilkins or Frazier's drives.

That's because he played till he was 43 years old. :) In his prime Parish was a solid 18-20 ppg player.

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 07:13 PM
That's because he played till he was 43 years old. :) In his prime Parish was a solid 18-20 ppg player.

ok still not likely to get over 15 vs. Dikembe

Eagles4Lyfe
11-25-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm not trying to get involved lol but just to reiterate what KOB said, I don't think career lines tell much because that'll include peoples rookie seasons where not everyone starts of flying, or includes seasons where people are past their peak and prime and tend to deflate their true numbers..

For a game like this where were only taking peoples primes into account I think averages during their prime would be the best telling stat if anything..

AP=MVP
11-25-2011, 07:31 PM
ok, thats fine, in his prime vs. smaller centers he averaged 17-18, I still don't think he gets 15 against Mutombo.

Actually I don't think he gets 10 given the fact that their main playmaker, Wilkins is terrible at giving up the ball and getting assists.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 10:31 PM
ok, thats fine, in his prime vs. smaller centers he averaged 17-18, I still don't think he gets 15 against Mutombo.

Actually I don't think he gets 10 given the fact that their main playmaker, Wilkins is terrible at giving up the ball and getting assists.

:laugh:

This is just stupid. At what point did I EVER say Wilkins was my main playmaker? Frazier is the clearly the playmaker on this team, and that's pretty obvious.

Also, you keep acting as if Parish played in the 50s or 60s or something, but he played against some pretty stiff competition in the 80s, dude. Kareem, Moses Malone, Ewing and Olajuwon all played a pretty good chunk of their careers in the 80s. In fact, the 80s probably had more elite offensive centers than any decade outside of the 90s.

Parish could put up 15 and 10 against Deke if he put up similar numbers against those types of players in his era.

mightybosstone
11-25-2011, 11:16 PM
It's been exactly 48 hours since the matchup was posted and the final vote is...
Rockets: 18
Muskies: 17

Good work, AP. You built a very good team, and I thoroughly enjoyed the debate...

Eagles4Lyfe
11-25-2011, 11:26 PM
Wow is this our first upset??

cubbybear2290
11-26-2011, 12:08 AM
I would say Rocket would take this series in 6 or 7 games. The Defense, Depth is what sold it for me that and matching up Big O on Nique is quite confusing, as I think Nique would burn him out w/ his athleticism and 2 or so inches in height.

RevisIsland
11-26-2011, 03:18 AM
Muskies by the tiniest of margins.

DR_1
11-26-2011, 10:35 AM
Wow 20 to 20

knicks=love
11-26-2011, 10:46 AM
It's actually 19-19. But I think it's over.

Rivera
11-26-2011, 04:55 PM
i was going to vote for the muskies...but the minute i saw that the muskies coach wanted to put the big O on the rockets best scorer dominique wilkins completley changed my vote....


i loved MBTs write up and it was enough to really make me think...the minute i saw this matchup i said forget it...Rockets have better balance and a better bench to...

Rockets in 7!