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View Full Version : Who are the top 10 SGs in NBA History at their SINGLE SEASON PEAK?



KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 09:08 PM
We've all seen traditional lists with guys like Dumars, Drexler, and Reggie Miller. Guys that have had long and successful careers. But how great were they... at their absolute peak? Was Reggie Miller at 100% even close to Tracy McGrady? Could Dumars outplay David Thompson? What do you think?

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 09:15 PM
Who gives a ****? All you guys are gonna throw out lists and then argue about it like children for 5 pages or more.

Yeah. That's what I'm hoping. :laugh:

IndyRealist
11-23-2011, 09:20 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Michael Jordan
3. Michael Jordan
.
.
.
.
.
.
4. Everybody else

I'd take Michael Jordan's top 3 seasons over any other SG to ever play. The conversation should probably start after that.

marvILLous
11-23-2011, 09:22 PM
u might as well just ask for 3-10 since i'm pretty sure 1. is jordan and 2. is kobe

but i'm too lazy to think of the rest

Pierzynski4Prez
11-23-2011, 09:29 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Michael Jordan
3. Michael Jordan
.
.
.
.
.
.
4. Everybody else

I'd take Michael Jordan's top 3 seasons over any other SG to ever play. The conversation should probably start after that.

not the point of the thread

mdm692
11-23-2011, 09:49 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Reggie miller
Ray allen
T-mac
Vince carter
Joe dumars
Drexler
Dwayne
In no particular order. Except for top 2

IndyRealist
11-23-2011, 09:50 PM
not the point of the thread

Nope, not in the least bit :)

But it had to be said that any of his top seasons were better than anyone else's. Comparing peaks somewhat obscures the fact. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

ALDAVIS>NFL
11-23-2011, 09:53 PM
Jordan and Kobe are 1, and 2 simple as that

Hangtime
11-23-2011, 09:55 PM
You can tell the NBA is in a lockout. We are running out of **** to talk about.

Shammyguy3
11-23-2011, 09:56 PM
Wade's 08/09 rivals any of Kobe's single seasons. just saying.

beasted86
11-23-2011, 10:10 PM
It's pretty clear Jordan would own at least 5 of the top 10 seasons for a SG, so this is a thrown together list excluding repeaters:

1. Jordan '88
2. Iverson '01
3. Bryant '06
4. Wade '09
5. Drexler '89
6. McGrady '03
7. Gervin '80
8. Maravich '77
9. Allen '06
10. Carter '01

Bruno
11-23-2011, 10:19 PM
For KoB- single season Roy/Drexler.

2009 Roy:
PER-24.0, TS%-.573, WS- 13.4, WS/48- 0.223

1992 Drexler:
PER- 23.6, TS%-.560, WS- 12.8, WS/48- 0.223

Roy isn't close to the top ten overall, and won't retire close to the top ten either. I was just saying that had he had a healthy decade long career, matching his output from 2009 for that decade, his numbers would have qualified him for the debate (pending on playoff success).

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 10:23 PM
For KoB- single season Roy/Drexler.

2009 Roy:
PER-24.0, TS%-.573, WS- 13.4, WS/48- 0.223

1992 Drexler:
PER- 23.6, TS%-.560, WS- 12.8, WS/48- 0.223

Roy isn't close to the top ten overall, and won't retire close to the top ten either. I was just saying that had he had a healthy decade long career, matching his output from 2009 for that decade, his numbers would have qualified him for the debate (pending on playoff success).

I agree completely which is why I wanted to see if you would throw his 09 season as one of the greatest SG seasons of all-time.

Shammyguy3
11-23-2011, 10:26 PM
there is absolutely no way that any of Iverson's seasons are in this discussion. His '01 season, he posted a 51.8ts%, 44.7efg%, 23.0ast%, 10.0tov% on a 35.9usg%.

That's just bad. His efg% that year was worse than his career average. Same for his usg%. His ts% was the same. Simply put, Iverson belongs nowhere near this thread.

Bruno
11-23-2011, 10:27 PM
Looking strictly by the numbers, without taking playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account:

1. Jordans peak year.
2. McGradys peak year.
3. Wades peak year.
4. Kobes peak year.
5. Wests peak year.
6. Gervins peak year
7. Manus peak year.
8. Roys peak year.
9. Drexlers peak year.
10. Iversons peak year.

I think the list changes when you do take playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account, but strictly off regular season numbers and the playoffs from those given seasons, I think the above list caters to the numbers.

Bruno
11-23-2011, 10:32 PM
wanted to throw kings '85 season in there but the Knicks didn't make the playoffs. Every other player I put in front of him made the playoffs on those given seasons, with six of them reaching the Finals.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 10:43 PM
It's pretty clear Jordan would own at least 5 of the top 10 seasons for a SG, so this is a thrown together list excluding repeaters:

1. Jordan '88
2. Iverson '01
3. Bryant '06
4. Wade '09
5. Drexler '89
6. McGrady '03
7. Gervin '80
8. Maravich '77
9. Allen '06
10. Carter '01

I disagree but strong post. Without researching too much my list looks like this:

1. Michael Jordan '91
2. Tracy McGrady '03
3. Kobe Bryant '06
4. Dwyane Wade '09
5. Jerry West '66
6. George Gervin '78
7. Allen Iverson '01
8. Clyde Drexler '88
9. Reggie Miller '91
10. Ray Allen '01

Toughest Cut: Vince Carter

Swashcuff
11-23-2011, 10:43 PM
Looking strictly by the numbers, without taking playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account:

1. Jordans peak year.
2. McGradys peak year.
3. Wades peak year.
4. Kobes peak year.
5. Wests peak year.
6. Gervins peak year
7. Manus peak year.
8. Roys peak year.
9. Drexlers peak year.
10. Iversons peak year.

I think the list changes when you do take playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account, but strictly off regular season numbers and the playoffs from those given seasons, I think the above list caters to the numbers.

At his peak Penny played the PG but if we're considering him as a combo guard and more along the lines of an SG he'd be up above Roy no doubt. If West is going to be in there then Penny should absolutely be as well.

Personally I don't think Roy deserves to be ahead of Drexler. Drexler basically did everything better than Roy but you did say you're going based solely on stats so I have no gripe with that.

With that said I'd go

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Sidney Moncrief/Clyde Drexler

Also comparing Roy to Drexler by using their shooting/scoring %s may not be the best bet since Drexler played in a MUCH tougher era for perimeter players against a deeper crop of top tier perimeter defenders.

As I said I consider Jerry West a PG so that's why I don't have him up there. If he wasn't he'd be about 5 with Penny around 8.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 10:46 PM
Looking strictly by the numbers, without taking playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account:

1. Jordans peak year.
2. McGradys peak year.
3. Wades peak year.
4. Kobes peak year.
5. Wests peak year.
6. Gervins peak year
7. Manus peak year.
8. Roys peak year.
9. Drexlers peak year.
10. Iversons peak year.

I think the list changes when you do take playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account, but strictly off regular season numbers and the playoffs from those given seasons, I think the above list caters to the numbers.


I disagree but strong post. Without researching too much my list looks like this:

1. Michael Jordan '91
2. Tracy McGrady '03
3. Kobe Bryant '06
4. Dwyane Wade '09
5. Jerry West '66
6. George Gervin '78
7. Allen Iverson '01
8. Clyde Drexler '88
9. Reggie Miller '91
10. Ray Allen '01

Toughest Cut: Vince Carter

Our lists are annoyingly similar. :laugh: Not enough to argue. I looked hard at Manu but I didn't find an individual season that stood out for both playoffs and regular season.

Swashcuff
11-23-2011, 10:46 PM
there is absolutely no way that any of Iverson's seasons are in this discussion. His '01 season, he posted a 51.8ts%, 44.7efg%, 23.0ast%, 10.0tov% on a 35.9usg%.

That's just bad. His efg% that year was worse than his career average. Same for his usg%. His ts% was the same. Simply put, Iverson belongs nowhere near this thread.

The application of simple context proves this argument to be wrong.

still a fan
11-23-2011, 10:47 PM
Wow maybe i'm just a bit older than those posting here:

MJ
Kobe
West- Gail was the PG, and West is amazing, one could argue he's up there with the other two.
Gervin- averaged 25 pts per game and talk about peek he scoree 33 points in one yr, called the Ice man for a very good reason and led the NBA in scoring 4-5 straight seasons, he was a machine, and where do all you young fans think the finger roll came from, nobody better.
Hondo Havlicek- major force in those celtic championships, scoring 21-6-5 is not bad but playing with the guys he played with is simply great, not to mention he was probably the best 6th man of all time, and played 21 years with those averages is extremely great, His defense was amazing.

Swashcuff
11-23-2011, 10:49 PM
Wow maybe i'm just a bit older than those posting here:

MJ
Kobe
West- Gail was the PG, and West is amazing, one could argue he's up there with the other two.
Gervin- averaged 25 pts per game and talk about peek he scoree 33 points in one yr, called the Ice man for a very good reason and led the NBA in scoring 4-5 straight seasons, he was a machine, and where do all you young fans think the finger roll came from, nobody better.
Hondo Havlicek- major force in those celtic championships, scoring 21-6-5 is not bad but playing with the guys he played with is simply great, not to mention he was probably the best 6th man of all time, and played 21 years with those averages is extremely great, His defense was amazing.

What made Gail the PG?

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 10:52 PM
Wow maybe i'm just a bit older than those posting here:

MJ
Kobe
West- Gail was the PG, and West is amazing, one could argue he's up there with the other two.
Gervin- averaged 25 pts per game and talk about peek he scoree 33 points in one yr, called the Ice man for a very good reason and led the NBA in scoring 4-5 straight seasons, he was a machine, and where do all you young fans think the finger roll came from, nobody better.
Hondo Havlicek- major force in those celtic championships, scoring 21-6-5 is not bad but playing with the guys he played with is simply great, not to mention he was probably the best 6th man of all time, and played 21 years with those averages is extremely great, His defense was amazing.

I always consider Hondo as a SF in discussions like this. Also, what West year would you use to put him at #3?

jayjay16
11-23-2011, 10:56 PM
1 Michael Jordan, 2 Kobe Bryant, 3 Oscar Robertson, 4 Jerry West,Dwayne Wade, 5 Clyde Drexler,6 George Gervin,7 Earl Monroe, 8 John Havlichek,9 Ray Allen,10 Reggie Miller.

Chronz
11-23-2011, 10:56 PM
u might as well just ask for 3-10 since i'm pretty sure 1. is jordan and 2. is kobe

but i'm too lazy to think of the rest
Thats not the question

naps
11-23-2011, 11:01 PM
Wade's 08/09 rivals any of Kobe's single seasons. just saying.

Without a doubt.

QuaLiThADoN
11-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dylan,Dy lan,Dylan

naps
11-23-2011, 11:05 PM
At his peak Penny played the PG but if we're considering him as a combo guard and more along the lines of an SG he'd be up above Roy no doubt. If West is going to be in there then Penny should absolutely be as well.

Personally I don't think Roy deserves to be ahead of Drexler. Drexler basically did everything better than Roy but you did say you're going based solely on stats so I have no gripe with that.

With that said I'd go

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Sidney Moncrief/Clyde Drexler

Also comparing Roy to Drexler by using their shooting/scoring %s may not be the best bet since Drexler played in a MUCH tougher era for perimeter players against a deeper crop of top tier perimeter defenders.

As I said I consider Jerry West a PG so that's why I don't have him up there. If he wasn't he'd be about 5 with Penny around 8.


Agreed 100%.

Bruno
11-23-2011, 11:06 PM
At his peak Penny played the PG but if we're considering him as a combo guard and more along the lines of an SG he'd be up above Roy no doubt. If West is going to be in there then Penny should absolutely be as well.

Yeah, I put Penny in the PG boat, especially with his peak years coming in Orlando. Although yea, he's probably a combo guard.


Personally I don't think Roy deserves to be ahead of Drexler. Drexler basically did everything better than Roy but you did say you're going based solely on stats so I have no gripe with that.

I have no gripe with a Drexler over Roy position. Roy has Drexler beat by the numbers for the regular season (slightly), but Drexler took his team to the finals. I value that a lot- but the list I put up tries to not put added value on that- just strictly by the numbers


With that said I'd go

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Sidney Moncrief/Clyde Drexler

Also comparing Roy to Drexler by using their shooting/scoring %s may not be the best bet since Drexler played in a MUCH tougher era for perimeter players against a deeper crop of top tier perimeter defenders.

As I said I consider Jerry West a PG so that's why I don't have him up there. If he wasn't he'd be about 5 with Penny around 8.

West is almost always regarded as a SG, although I'm sure you could go back and find games where he serves the roll of PG.


Our lists are annoyingly similar. :laugh: Not enough to argue. I looked hard at Manu but I didn't find an individual season that stood out for both playoffs and regular season.

haha. How about 2005? A lot of fans still feel like he deserved Finals MVP over Duncan:
Regs: PER- 22.3, TS%- .609, WS- 11.0, WS/48: 0.240.
Post: PER- 24.8, TS%- 652, WS- 4.2, WS/48: 0.260 (matches Bryants all time high in post season ws/48).



Wow maybe i'm just a bit older than those posting here:

MJ
Kobe
West- Gail was the PG, and West is amazing, one could argue he's up there with the other two.
Gervin- averaged 25 pts per game and talk about peek he scoree 33 points in one yr, called the Ice man for a very good reason and led the NBA in scoring 4-5 straight seasons, he was a machine, and where do all you young fans think the finger roll came from, nobody better.
Hondo Havlicek- major force in those celtic championships, scoring 21-6-5 is not bad but playing with the guys he played with is simply great, not to mention he was probably the best 6th man of all time, and played 21 years with those averages is extremely great, His defense was amazing.

You'd know better than me, but I though he was labeled a SF more often than not?

Gervin was an amazing scorer from what Ive seen and read about. I think the one knock on him is that he wasn't a big play-maker, I think his carrer average in assists per game is under three. In that sense, he's more of a Kevin Durant type guy, to make a contemporary comparison. Deadly, league leading scorer, not a big play-maker. But he makes my list easily, just a few spots behind where you put him.

You should check out Wades peak stats when you get a minute, it's high. McGradys individual year stats are also off the charts, although he only did it once and never came close again.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 11:12 PM
haha. How about 2005? A lot of fans still feel like he deserved Finals MVP over Duncan:
Regs: PER- 22.3, TS%- .609, WS- 11.0, WS/48: 0.240.
Post: PER- 24.8, TS%- 652, WS- 4.2, WS/48: 0.260 (matches Bryants all time high in post season ws/48).



Tough sell because despite being effecient he only averaged 16-4-4 during the regular season and played under 30 minutes per game. That's a very underwhelming statline for 74 games of a historic top 10 season.

Bruno
11-23-2011, 11:18 PM
Tough sell because despite being effecient he only averaged 16-4-4 during the regular season and played under 30 minutes per game. That's a very underwhelming statline for 74 games of a historic top 10 season.

that's true, he averaged less than 30 mpg for the regular season and less than three quarters a game during the playoffs. These other guys played much bulkier minutes. I'm a sucker for his efficiency.

numba1CHANGsta
11-23-2011, 11:50 PM
Who was the person who said Kobe wasnt in the top 5 SG's of all time? I forgot who said it but yeah that person is either a hater or in denial

still a fan
11-23-2011, 11:54 PM
I guess I misinterpreted at peak, to me thats just not one season?

As far as the question why West the 2- guard vs Gail?

Because out of West's mouth he said it during the Knicks vs Lakers champion series with the match ups with clyde and Pearl.

It was a very interesting question and years later I'll never forget because back then it was great conversation in school, we didn't have internet lol...

West said he covered Clyde who was the Knicks PG but Gail was the PG who covered Earl.

It went much deeper but not the point of the thread, actually that would make a great thread to me based on being young and watching those games very closely.

Clyde and Earl were both PG's yet played together, and West and Gail were both guards in the truest fashion.

Bruno
11-24-2011, 12:01 AM
Who was the person who said Kobe wasnt in the top 5 SG's of all time? I forgot who said it but yeah that person is either a hater or in denial

Bryant is the consensus #2. At this point I almost never see him any lower than #3.

If a fan equally values peak, longevity, playoff performances, finals performances, rings and accolades there's no putting him any lower than #2. Fans who put him any lower are usually the "2000's is a watered down era" people.

OaklandsFinest
11-24-2011, 12:13 AM
there is absolutely no way that any of Iverson's seasons are in this discussion. His '01 season, he posted a 51.8ts%, 44.7efg%, 23.0ast%, 10.0tov% on a 35.9usg%.

That's just bad. His efg% that year was worse than his career average. Same for his usg%. His ts% was the same. Simply put, Iverson belongs nowhere near this thread.

See this is the exact problem with extraction of these new sabrematrics... The stats tell a part of the story but not the whole story.. To say Iverson's 01 season wasn't one of the best seasons by anybody at any position is horribly inaccurate and erroneous. He carried an offensively anemic team to the finals.

Chronz
11-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Starting list (Not sure whether to include Big O so I wont) Im having trouble identifying Vinces best season, and trying to decide if Julius/Penny played enough SG to qualify.

MJ '91
Kobe '01
Wade '06
West '65
Tmac '03
Sam Jones '65
Gervin '79
Drexler '92
Iverson '01
Ray Allen '01
Moncrief '83
Manu '05

KnicksorBust
11-24-2011, 12:20 AM
I guess I misinterpreted at peak, to me thats just not one season?

As far as the question why West the 2- guard vs Gail?

Because out of West's mouth he said it during the Knicks vs Lakers champion series with the match ups with clyde and Pearl.

It was a very interesting question and years later I'll never forget because back then it was great conversation in school, we didn't have internet lol...

West said he covered Clyde who was the Knicks PG but Gail was the PG who covered Earl.

It went much deeper but not the point of the thread, actually that would make a great thread to me based on being young and watching those games very closely.

Clyde and Earl were both PG's yet played together, and West and Gail were both guards in the truest fashion.

It's clarified in the title. Just one season. I'm curious what version of Jerry West you would be using? He was more of a PG later in his career but I'd prefer the '66 version. He averaged 12.4 FTA per game that season. His 840 free throws made is the most by any player in a single season in NBA History. Narrowly edging out Wilt's 835 and Jordan's 833. Kobe's heighest in a season is 696 free throws made placing him just in the top 20. West also took the Celtics to 7 games that season. The more I talk about it the better it sounds. Maybe I underrated him. T-Mac, Wade, Kobe, and West need to round out the top 5. The order can change but I'm not sure any Gervin-Iverson-etc. season compares.

Chronz
11-24-2011, 12:20 AM
See this is the exact problem with extraction of these new sabrematrics... The stats tell a part of the story but not the whole story.. To say Iverson's 01 season wasn't one of the best seasons by anybody at any position is horribly inaccurate and erroneous. He carried an offensively anemic team to the finals.
That expression doesnt fly here because it holds true for alot of other players, the difference of course being they dont need the same excuses AI needs.

KnicksorBust
11-24-2011, 12:27 AM
Starting list (Not sure whether to include Big O so I wont) Im having trouble identifying Vinces best season, and trying to decide if Julius/Penny played enough SG to qualify.

MJ '91
Kobe '01
Wade '06
West '65
Tmac '03
Sam Jones '65
Gervin '79
Drexler '92
Iverson '01
Ray Allen '01
Manu '05

I don't see how you can rank Kobe's '01 season as 2nd best all-time. His own 2006 carrying Smush-Walton-Odom-Cook-Mihm-Kwame-etc. to the playoffs while having one of the greatest scoring regular seasons is superior.

OaklandsFinest
11-24-2011, 12:28 AM
Bryant is the consensus #2. At this point I almost never see him any lower than #3.

If a fan equally values peak, longevity, playoff performances, finals performances, rings and accolades there's no putting him any lower than #2. Fans who put him any lower are usually the "2000's is a watered down era" people.

I just think Kobe Bryant benefited greatly from playing beside the best Center of his era and one of the most dominant ever. So I think his rings and accolades are overrated. Top 5 sg ever, yes most definitely. But in their primes, he is definitely no Tracy McGrady and thats end of discussion. I think people remember Kobe for a few really great moments but forget him shooting them out of the finals against Detroit or Utah's debacle. People ignore the fact Kobe lead offenses are the least efficient offenses in 4th quarter offenses in the league. Kobe has quit in several playoff games including game 6 of the first Celtics- Lakers series. If you're a top 2 sg all time you don't lose a deciding game by 39 period.

Chronz
11-24-2011, 12:44 AM
I don't see how you can rank Kobe's '01 season as 2nd best all-time. His own 2006 carrying Smush-Walton-Odom-Cook-Mihm-Kwame-etc. to the playoffs while having one of the greatest scoring regular seasons is superior.

Playoffs:
01: 29-7-6 against top notch defensive teams, Elite D throughout and his team eviscerated the Western conference on route to a title.

06: 28-6-5 against a Suns team without Amare in a 1st round defeat.

Its hard enough to choose a season that stands out from a career of consistent dominance but also because its hard to differentiate the best season from most successful season.

Iverson was a better player in his later years, the stats support it. But you cannot honestly say that any season other than his Finals season was his most successful. If your asking for the greatest individual seasons based on level of play then my list changes dramatically. I still dont take your Kobe though, I take 03 all day.

marvILLous
11-24-2011, 01:33 AM
Thats not the question

wat?

jordan's peak season isn't #1 and kobe's peak season isn't #2?

ok

Chronz
11-24-2011, 02:40 AM
wat?

jordan's peak season isn't #1 and kobe's peak season isn't #2?

ok
MJ is definitely #1, everything else is debatable, but yes I think Kobe has the #2 spot down, then again Im somewhat biased because that 01 run was so memorable here in LA. Still I can see the argument for quite a few players.

Bruno
11-24-2011, 09:42 AM
I just think Kobe Bryant benefited greatly from playing beside the best Center of his era and one of the most dominant ever. So I think his rings and accolades are overrated.

That angle might have worked before 2009. He has two Finals MVPs and two rings without Shaq. He became the 4th player in league history to drop 40-8-8 in an NBA Finals game joining MJ West and Shaq. He did it against the leagues top ranked defense in Orlando.

Before you discredit his contributions to his three-peat with Shaq and Jackson remember that he put up 29-7-6 while leading the entire post-season in win-shares and WS/48. They went 15-1 on their way to the title. Bryant led the team with the greatest post-season record in league history in win-shares.


Top 5 sg ever, yes most definitely. But in their primes, he is definitely no Tracy McGrady and thats end of discussion.

You need to define primes. If you mean peak, McGradys peak year is just as good as Bryants. Prime implies a players best five, seven or ten years, depending on the discussion. In which case McGrady doesn't touch Bryant. McGrady was fantastic in 2003, but he never had another year that came close, check the stats. If you take Bryants best five seasons, seven seasons or ten seasons and compare them statistically with McGrady is Bryant by a mile. Bryant also crushed McGrady in overall accolades.


I think people remember Kobe for a few really great moments but forget him shooting them out of the finals against Detroit or Utah's debacle.

You're really selling him short there. It's a lot more than "a few". He sucked against Detroit, and so did everyone else in purple and gold. The only game LA won was the game Kobe took over. You also need to consider the fact that the '04 Pistons are one of the greatest defensive teams in league history.

You mention Utah, but don't mention that he was 19. Context. Nearly every other SG in contention wasn't even playing professionally at that point, let alone showing the grit to take big last second shots against a team that was eventually seconds away from taking Jordans Bulls to seven games.


People ignore the fact Kobe lead offenses are the least efficient offenses in 4th quarter offenses in the league.

That's not true. Present the stats if I'm wrong.


Kobe has quit in several playoff games including game 6 of the first Celtics- Lakers series. If you're a top 2 sg all time you don't lose a deciding game by 39 period.

Kobe single-handedly lost game six by 39 points? He didn't quit, he shot poorly. Not the first or last time he met the leagues top ranked defense in the finals.

In all you've chosen to be critical of three moments in his career, which is fine- although the Utah example isn't a good one. Yet you brush over his best moments by referring to them as "a few" in quantity implying that there aren't many to choose from. For every negative game or series you want to single out, I can give you ten others where he shines brightly. A fifteen year career is judged by more than three poor moments, especially when the guy went to the finals seven times over a eleven year period.

NJBASEBALL22
11-24-2011, 11:27 AM
Going by what the OP asked for, the top 10 years by a 2-guard, my list goes like this:
*note: I do not consider West, the Big O, Penny and AI to be 2-guards despite them playing the combo guard role.

1. MJ 88-89 (but really pick any year) avg 32.5/8/8/2.9 steals on 54% shooting in one of the toughest eras for perimeter players to get to the rack. 1st team all defense, coming off of the DPOY the previous season.
2. Wade 08-09 avg 30/5/7.5/ 2.2 steals on 49% shooting, also 2nd team all defense
3. Kobe 00-01 avg 28.5/6/5/1.8 steals on 46.5%. 2nd team defense. Like Jordan, a lot of Kobe's year could qualify because a lot of his years are similar but I'll take him this year when he was still really amazing on d and before Kobe completely started to dominate the ball and getting star calls.
4. T-Mac 02-03 avg 32/6.5/5.5/17 steals on 46% shooting. He really gets a bad rap because of his playoff failures but in reality he had a 5 year peak that rivals Kobe and Wade for the 2 and 3 spots. *here comes a rant: His second best player was Pat Garrity and ppl give him **** for not getting out of the first round, it was amazing that he even made the playoffs w/ 33 year old Darryl Armstrong, 2nd year Mike Miller, Rookie Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity, and 25 games of Grant Hill. I forgot to add washed up 33 year old Shawn Kemp and 37 year old Horace Grant. He turned chicken-**** into chicken salad and still gets dumped on. Use a more recent example, was Kevin Garnett better at 31 years old when he won the title with the C's (throwing numbers out of the window because obviously his role changed) than he was as a 23 year old in Minny that nearly avg a triple double or as a 25 year old that avg 19 boards a game for that series? Its hard to come through in the clutch when you are playing great team defenses (which usually #1 seeds are and that is who the #8 seeds generally play) that focus on stopping the man. I can't push T-Mac above Kobe or Wade because he wasn't as good on D as those two.
5. Drexler 88-89 avg 27/8/6/2.7 steals on 49% shooting. These Brandon Roy comparisons are getting ridiculous. I mean, those are almost Larry Bird numbers minus the 3pt shooting. Drexler is very underrated and this is coming from a guy that historically underrated him because of his post season struggles. Plus he was underrated as an athletic defender. And he played in the same era as Jordan, toughest D's.
6-8 are interchangeable I feel and its tough because of the era Thompson and Gervin played in... no defense.
6. David Thompson 77-78 avg 27/5/4.5/1.2 stl/1.2 blk on 52% shooting could've been one of the best if not for the nose candy.
7. Gervin 78-79 avg 29.5/5/3/1.7 stl/1 blk. Some of his ABA years look better statistically but it was a different league and style of play. He could score at will though.
8. Ray Allen 00-01 avg 22/5/4.5/1.5 stl on 48 fg% and 43% 3pt%. Scoring is down from most of the others on this list but it is because he didn't get to the line nearly as much as the others because of his shooter style of play... but he really is the best shooter of all time.
9. Moncrief 83-84 Avg 21/7/4/1.4 stl. Another one with a lower ppg but the back to back dpoys speak volumes
10. Vince 00-01 avg 27.5/5.5/4/1.5 stl/1 blk. 46% fg% and 41% 3pt% I hate putting him up here because of everything he stands for but back in the day it actually looked like he gave a damn about playing more often than not.

Just missed- Mitch Richmond 91-92 avg. 22.5/4/5 underrated defender and a very good shooter. Actually, underrated all around

If you want to count Penny, West, Oscar and AI... here is where they'd go in my list:

Penny 95-96 (avg 21/4.5/7/2) would go right before or after Gervin
West 65-66 (avg 28/6.5/5.5) would go in front of Drexler
Oscar 61-62 (avg 31/12.5/11.5) would go at 2 despite all of the inflation in numbers back then.
AI 00-01 (31/4.5/5.5/2.8 stl) He would bearly crack my list... maybe he would bump Carter off and go in front of Moncrief. He couldn't shoot but took tons of shots... I respect his style of play though, balls to the wall and played much bigger then he was.

Back in the day of West and Oscar, there was no set point guard or shooting guard... there just guards so that is why its tough to rank them.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 11:41 AM
I'd like to hear Chronz's and Bagwell's take on what position they thought West played at his peak. From all the research I have done Goodrich was not the PG for those Laker teams. West was the one who primarily brought the ball up the floor and initiated the offense. He guarded the opposing team's bigger or better guard because he was bigger than Goodrich and was a better defensive player. I don't think that's qualifies him to be the SG of those teams. If that's the case then A.I. is undoubtedly a PG and Magic isn't.

KnicksorBust
11-24-2011, 12:44 PM
I'd like to hear Chronz's and Bagwell's take on what position they thought West played at his peak. From all the research I have done Goodrich was not the PG for those Laker teams. West was the one who primarily brought the ball up the floor and initiated the offense. He guarded the opposing team's bigger or better guard because he was bigger than Goodrich and was a better defensive player. I don't think that's qualifies him to be the SG of those teams. If that's the case then A.I. is undoubtedly a PG and Magic isn't.

By that same token you could change Jordan to a PG and LeBron to a PG just as easily.

KnicksorBust
11-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Going by what the OP asked for, the top 10 years by a 2-guard, my list goes like this:
*note: I do not consider West, the Big O, Penny and AI to be 2-guards despite them playing the combo guard role.

1. MJ 88-89 (but really pick any year) avg 32.5/8/8/2.9 steals on 54% shooting in one of the toughest eras for perimeter players to get to the rack. 1st team all defense, coming off of the DPOY the previous season.
2. Wade 08-09 avg 30/5/7.5/ 2.2 steals on 49% shooting, also 2nd team all defense
3. Kobe 00-01 avg 28.5/6/5/1.8 steals on 46.5%. 2nd team defense. Like Jordan, a lot of Kobe's year could qualify because a lot of his years are similar but I'll take him this year when he was still really amazing on d and before Kobe completely started to dominate the ball and getting star calls.
4. T-Mac 02-03 avg 32/6.5/5.5/17 steals on 46% shooting. He really gets a bad rap because of his playoff failures but in reality he had a 5 year peak that rivals Kobe and Wade for the 2 and 3 spots. *here comes a rant: His second best player was Pat Garrity and ppl give him **** for not getting out of the first round, it was amazing that he even made the playoffs w/ 33 year old Darryl Armstrong, 2nd year Mike Miller, Rookie Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity, and 25 games of Grant Hill. I forgot to add washed up 33 year old Shawn Kemp and 37 year old Horace Grant. He turned chicken-**** into chicken salad and still gets dumped on. Use a more recent example, was Kevin Garnett better at 31 years old when he won the title with the C's (throwing numbers out of the window because obviously his role changed) than he was as a 23 year old in Minny that nearly avg a triple double or as a 25 year old that avg 19 boards a game for that series? Its hard to come through in the clutch when you are playing great team defenses (which usually #1 seeds are and that is who the #8 seeds generally play) that focus on stopping the man. I can't push T-Mac above Kobe or Wade because he wasn't as good on D as those two.
5. Drexler 88-89 avg 27/8/6/2.7 steals on 49% shooting. These Brandon Roy comparisons are getting ridiculous. I mean, those are almost Larry Bird numbers minus the 3pt shooting. Drexler is very underrated and this is coming from a guy that historically underrated him because of his post season struggles. Plus he was underrated as an athletic defender. And he played in the same era as Jordan, toughest D's.
6-8 are interchangeable I feel and its tough because of the era Thompson and Gervin played in... no defense.
6. David Thompson 77-78 avg 27/5/4.5/1.2 stl/1.2 blk on 52% shooting could've been one of the best if not for the nose candy.
7. Gervin 78-79 avg 29.5/5/3/1.7 stl/1 blk. Some of his ABA years look better statistically but it was a different league and style of play. He could score at will though.
8. Ray Allen 00-01 avg 22/5/4.5/1.5 stl on 48 fg% and 43% 3pt%. Scoring is down from most of the others on this list but it is because he didn't get to the line nearly as much as the others because of his shooter style of play... but he really is the best shooter of all time.
9. Moncrief 83-84 Avg 21/7/4/1.4 stl. Another one with a lower ppg but the back to back dpoys speak volumes
10. Vince 00-01 avg 27.5/5.5/4/1.5 stl/1 blk. 46% fg% and 41% 3pt% I hate putting him up here because of everything he stands for but back in the day it actually looked like he gave a damn about playing more often than not.

Just missed- Mitch Richmond 91-92 avg. 22.5/4/5 underrated defender and a very good shooter. Actually, underrated all around

If you want to count Penny, West, Oscar and AI... here is where they'd go in my list:

Penny 95-96 (avg 21/4.5/7/2) would go right before or after Gervin
West 65-66 (avg 28/6.5/5.5) would go in front of Drexler
Oscar 61-62 (avg 31/12.5/11.5) would go at 2 despite all of the inflation in numbers back then.
AI 00-01 (31/4.5/5.5/2.8 stl) He would bearly crack my list... maybe he would bump Carter off and go in front of Moncrief. He couldn't shoot but took tons of shots... I respect his style of play though, balls to the wall and played much bigger then he was.

Back in the day of West and Oscar, there was no set point guard or shooting guard... there just guards so that is why its tough to rank them.

Best post in the thread.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 01:09 PM
By that same token you could change Jordan to a PG and LeBron to a PG just as easily.

Well at points in Jordan's career he could have easily been defined as his teams PG. Same as for LeBron but they weren't PGs however. Same for West and being a SG. By no means was he a pure PG or a traditional PG but one of his duties on his Lakers teams were to play that position on offense.

still a fan
11-24-2011, 01:14 PM
By that same token you could change Jordan to a PG and LeBron to a PG just as easily.

I went by the player himself, not sure what more anyone can ask lol:)

Yes and Wade is a PG as well, right?

But lets have an old time Laker fan chime in, because that statement West brought the ball up all the time is so false? Gail brought it up from the games I watched quite often.


But if anyone is looking for a definite answer, there isn't one, back then a guard was a guard, again who was the point guard with Clyde and Earl? They both dribbled up the court, they both handled the ball, they both passed it , shot it, etc..?

Clyde almost every game he broadcasts says they were guards and interchangeable.

so I dug up a recent quote from Gail:


Who was the best teammate you ever played with?

Gail Goodrich
(1:09 PM)



Oh boy, I played with some great teammates. Jerry West was the best at the guard position. Elgin Baylor at the forward position. I played with Kareem, I played with Wilt -- I was fortunate to play with a lot of great players, who made me better as well.

See Gail called West a guard, didn't say PG or SG. West I remember said against the Knicks he was the off guard, which means today shooting guard.

You know tomato's lol

Chronz
11-24-2011, 01:21 PM
From all the research I have done Goodrich was not the PG for those Laker teams. West was the one who primarily brought the ball up the floor and initiated the offense. He guarded the opposing team's bigger or better guard because he was bigger than Goodrich and was a better defensive player. I don't think that's qualifies him to be the SG of those teams. If that's the case then A.I. is undoubtedly a PG and Magic isn't.
Well yea but what about all those years before Goodrich shared the backcourt with West full time? By that point West was 32 years old. Under normal circumstances this would represent his declining years but he adapted his game perfectly and turned out being a better PG than he was a SG, offensively at least.

So his absolute best years are just as debateable but in a list of greatest seasons from the SG position, I think he has a few that qualify.

smith&wesson
11-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Jordan
kobe
wade
iverson
allen
tmac
carter
allen
drexler
miller
dumars

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 02:20 PM
I went by the player himself, not sure what more anyone can ask lol:)

Yes and Wade is a PG as well, right?

But lets have an old time Laker fan chime in, because that statement West brought the ball up all the time is so false? Gail brought it up from the games I watched quite often.


But if anyone is looking for a definite answer, there isn't one, back then a guard was a guard, again who was the point guard with Clyde and Earl? They both dribbled up the court, they both handled the ball, they both passed it , shot it, etc..?

Clyde almost every game he broadcasts says they were guards and interchangeable.

so I dug up a recent quote from Gail:



See Gail called West a guard, didn't say PG or SG. West I remember said against the Knicks he was the off guard, which means today shooting guard.

You know tomato's lol

What does any of this prove however? Weren't you the very same one who said Goodrich played the PG?

Jerry was never second in assists to the other guard in his backcourt .

He was the Laker team's primary ballhandler, led it in assists every year except his rookie year (when Elgin Baylor did; West still led the team guards), had two years of 9+ assists in a time when assists were tougher to get, set up the offense .

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 02:50 PM
Well yea but what about all those years before Goodrich shared the backcourt with West full time? By that point West was 32 years old. Under normal circumstances this would represent his declining years but he adapted his game perfectly and turned out being a better PG than he was a SG, offensively at least.

So his absolute best years are just as debatable but in a list of greatest seasons from the SG position, I think he has a few that qualify.

Good I wanted you to chime in on this. Personally I think he was more of the PG than anything else and he was seen as a SG because of the fact that he was a great scorer (just like Magic, Cousy, Frazier, Oscar), attempted a large volume (so did Oscar, Tiny etc) of shots and he was bigger than his counterparts (just like Magic, Walt and Payton).

Honest question. What makes Walt Frazier, Tiny Archibald and Oscar PGs and Jerry West an SG?

beliges
11-24-2011, 04:33 PM
Fairly simple question here. You got the majority of MJs seasons and Kobe in 01, 03, 06, 07, and 08. Then comes the rest of the SG class.

Chronz
11-24-2011, 04:44 PM
Good I wanted you to chime in on this. Personally I think he was more of the PG than anything else and he was seen as a SG because of the fact that he was a great scorer (just like Magic, Cousy, Frazier, Oscar), attempted a large volume (so did Oscar, Tiny etc) of shots and he was bigger than his counterparts (just like Magic, Walt and Payton).

Honest question. What makes Walt Frazier, Tiny Archibald and Oscar PGs and Jerry West an SG?
Well all that sounds like a SG to me, at least his early days do. His later days leading up to playing with Goodrich are when he really transitioned into more of a traditional PG.

Like the way Magic, Oscar and Cousy play is more in line with traditional PG. To me Tiny was just a scoring PG who cant qualify as a 2 because he didnt have the off-the ball skills or the size to defend the position.
That West usually defended 2's and focused more on scoring than everyone else is what stands out to me, he didnt have the same mindset. Hell he played F in College so when he came to the pros he talked about the adjustment to the position so its not like he came in with a distributing mentality the way all those others guys did.

Im as lost as anyone else is when it comes to defining positions from those days. I always wanted to pigeonhole West as a PG (because I think his body type would be freakish at that position) by todays standards but his lack of a left hand screams SG to me. His overall mentality in his youth was more in line with a SG. I dont think you could have taken a young West and told him to play PG the way we define it. He was better as a scorer than a distributor. Oscar/Cousy/Clyde were the opposite, they were always better passers than they were scorers.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-24-2011, 05:43 PM
Good I wanted you to chime in on this. Personally I think he was more of the PG than anything else and he was seen as a SG because of the fact that he was a great scorer (just like Magic, Cousy, Frazier, Oscar), attempted a large volume (so did Oscar, Tiny etc) of shots and he was bigger than his counterparts (just like Magic, Walt and Payton).

Honest question. What makes Walt Frazier, Tiny Archibald and Oscar PGs and Jerry West an SG?

I should've asked West this when I had the chance. Oh well :sigh:

Perhaps there's something about this in his autobiography (what position he considered himself). Have the book somewhere but haven't gotten a chance to read it yet.

TheNumber37
11-24-2011, 06:22 PM
Here come the Iverson haters.
At his peak, we was playing top 5 for his position. People forget just how good AI was, with no help by the way.

Bruno
11-24-2011, 06:37 PM
4. T-Mac 02-03 avg 32/6.5/5.5/17 steals on 46% shooting. He really gets a bad rap because of his playoff failures but in reality he had a 5 year peak that rivals Kobe and Wade for the 2 and 3 spots.

I wouldn't take it that far.

Bryants top five PER:
1. 2005-2006- 28.0
2. 2002-2003- 26.2
3. 2006-2007- 26.1
4. 2000-2001- 24.5
5. 2008-2009- 24.4

McGradys top five PER:
1. 2002-2003- 30.3
2. 2003-2004- 25.2
3. 2001-2002- 25.1
4. 2000-2001- 24.9
5. 2006-2007- 23.2


Bryants top five TS%:
1. 2006-2007- .580%
2. 2007-2008- .576%
3. 2004-2005- .563%
4. 2008-2009- .561%
5. 2005-2006- .559%

McGradys top five TS%:
1. 2002-2003- .564%
2. 2001-2002- .532%
3. 2004-2005- .526%
4. 2003-2004- .526%
5. 2000-2001- .521%

McGradys second highest TS% of .532% in 2002 is lower than any TS% Bryant has ever posted over his 15 year career. Be it five years, ten year, or overall Bryant crushed McGrady in scoring efficiency.

Bryants top five Win-shares:
1. 2005-2006: 15.3
2. 2002-2003: 14.9
3. 2007-2008: 13.8
4. 2006-2007: 13.0
5. 2008-2009: 12.7

Five year peak WS total: 69.7

McGradys top five Win-shares:
1. 2002-2003: 16.1
2. 2000-2001: 12.2
3. 2004-2005: 12.0
4. 2001-2002: 11.5
5. 2006-2007: 8.6

Five year peak WS total: 60.4

Edge Bryant by 9.3 win-shares over five season peaks.


Bryants top five WS/48:
1. 2005-2006: 0.224
2. 2003-2004: 0.210
3. 2002-2003: 0.210
4. 2007-2008: 0.208
5. 2008-2009: 0.206

McGradys top five WS/48:
1. 2002-2003: 0.262
2. 2001-2002: 0.189
3. 2000-2001: 0.189
4. 2004-2005: 0.180
5. 2006-2007: 0.163

McGradys second highest WS/48 in '01 and '02 would be good enough for tenth under Bryants numbers. Bryant posted a WS/48 of 0.196 or higher nine times, McGrady did it once. Although McGradys single season peak crushes Bryants single season peak in WS/48.

In all I'd say their five year PER-peaks are comparable, but their TS%s, win-shares and win-shares per forty-eight minutes aren't.



5. Drexler 88-89 avg 27/8/6/2.7 steals on 49% shooting. These Brandon Roy comparisons are getting ridiculous.

Drexler '88-'89
PER: 23.6
TS%: .555%
WS: 12.6
WS/48: 0.197

Roy '08-'09
PER: 24.0
TS%: .573%
WS: 13.5
WS/48: 0.223

What's ridiculous about that comparison? Using the Drexler-peak season you chose, Roy has him beat in every major advanced statistic metric. Roy doesn't touch Drexler overall, but in a discussion of single-season peak Roy is right there with Drexler, an argument can be made in his favor.

I liked the rest of your post a lot.

Bruno
11-24-2011, 06:43 PM
Here come the Iverson haters.
At his peak, we was playing top 5 for his position. People forget just how good AI was, with no help by the way.

Look at the numbers. His squad didn't make the post-season during his best statical regular season (2005-2006). During the 2001 playoffs he posted a TS% of .480, which is far below any other players strongest post-season scoring efficiency. His WS/48 for the 2001 playoffs of 0.130 is also far below other SG's top playoff performances.

He's ranked accurately, fringe top ten, no higher than 8-9th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

i.got.the.nutz
11-24-2011, 07:39 PM
Good thread and good arguments guys. Consensus number one is obviously Jordan. Kobe, McGrady, and Wade seem to be the majority of the votes for the two, three, and four spots. An argument can be made for either.

I personally believe the number two spot goes to Wade's 08-09 season. His following year was no slouch either.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2011, 07:44 PM
Looking strictly by the numbers, without taking playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account:

1. Jordans peak year.
2. McGradys peak year.
3. Wades peak year.
4. Kobes peak year.
5. Wests peak year.
6. Gervins peak year
7. Manus peak year.
8. Roys peak year.
9. Drexlers peak year.
10. Iversons peak year.

I think the list changes when you do take playoff success/playoff games played/finals performance into account, but strictly off regular season numbers and the playoffs from those given seasons, I think the above list caters to the numbers.

For regular season, my list would look very similar. When adding playoffs, both you and I would shift around a bit. I think Wade would go to #2, Kobe #3, McGrady #4, Manu #5, Iverson #6.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2011, 07:45 PM
Good thread and good arguments guys. Consensus number one is obviously Jordan. Kobe, McGrady, and Wade seem to be the majority of the votes for the two, three, and four spots. An argument can be made for either.

I personally believe the number two spot goes to Wade's 08-09 season. His following year was no slouch either.

Yep. I also think Manu slips in to a few people's opinions when factoring in playoffs.

uchiha
11-24-2011, 08:00 PM
at this point:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade

and then whatever order you want to argue.. but I think the top three are pretty set

Hawkeye15
11-24-2011, 08:10 PM
at this point:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade

and then whatever order you want to argue.. but I think the top three are pretty set

a strong case can be made that McGrady had a better peak regular season than Kobe ever did. Wade as well.

Iodine
11-24-2011, 08:19 PM
Skywalker <3

27/4/4/2 combined blocks and steals on over 50%

Of course I have a hard on for him

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 08:25 PM
Drexler '88-'89
PER: 23.6
TS%: .555%
WS: 12.6
WS/48: 0.197

Roy '08-'09
PER: 24.0
TS%: .573%
WS: 13.5
WS/48: 0.223

What's ridiculous about that comparison? Using the Drexler-peak season you chose, Roy has him beat in every major advanced statistic metric. Roy doesn't touch Drexler overall, but in a discussion of single-season peak Roy is right there with Drexler, an argument can be made in his favor.

I liked the rest of your post a lot.

Like I said earlier we can't compare single season TS% and other stats of players who played in such different eras and say one is better because of it.

Lets compare their league average TS% to their respective TS%

Brandon Roy

TS% eFG%
Season League Roy League Roy
2009-10 0.543 0.568 0.501 0.508
2008-09 0.545 0.573 0.499 0.512
2007-08 0.540 0.531 0.498 0.485
2006-07 0.541 0.548 0.496 0.492

Clyde Drexler

TS% eFG%
Season League Drexler League Drexler
1996-97 0.536 0.548 0.493 0.508
1995-96 0.542 0.551 0.498 0.484
1994-95 0.543 0.577 0.500 0.521
1993-94 0.528 0.514 0.485 0.460
1992-93 0.536 0.517 0.491 0.448
1991-92 0.532 0.560 0.487 0.509
1990-91 0.534 0.563 0.488 0.505
1989-90 0.536 0.551 0.489 0.505
1988-89 0.537 0.555 0.489 0.504
1987-88 0.538 0.564 0.489 0.509
1986-87 0.538 0.552 0.488 0.506
1985-86 0.541 0.530 0.493 0.480
1984-85 0.543 0.534 0.497 0.497

At their respective peaks Roy was +2.8 in terms of TS% and +1.3 in terms of eFG% while Drexler +2.2 in terms of TS% and +1.5 in terms of eFG%.

Is Roy more efficient as compared to his respective counter parts? Yes he is but does that make up for everything else there is. There are literally too many alternatives in this argument to make a case for Roy. The only medium in which Roy has a case against Drexler is from an advanced statistical POV. When we take all into consideration (intangible worth, competition at the SG, rule changes, intangible worth etc) I honestly see no way Roy could match up with Clyde.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 08:32 PM
Look at the numbers. His squad didn't make the post-season during his best statical regular season (2005-2006). During the 2001 playoffs he posted a TS% of .480, which is far below any other players strongest post-season scoring efficiency. His WS/48 for the 2001 playoffs of 0.130 is also far below other SG's top playoff performances.

He's ranked accurately, fringe top ten, no higher than 8-9th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

C'mon his team didn't make the post season? Kareem's team didn't make the post season in the prime of his career and he's 5 times the player A.I. was. There were also less teams in the league at the time. It takes a team to be successful not a single man.

I'm not as high on A.I. peak as most fanboys but I seriously can't see the fact that he missed the post season as a valid argument when many of those who you may rank above him would have came away with the same results. That team was horrendous, but it was the first time he ever played with a player who was an actual threat on offense thus helping his efficiency. Had A.I. had real offensive support in his earlier years he would have had his true peak around the time of his MVP.

bringinwood
11-24-2011, 08:35 PM
You're essentially asking for the top 10 single best seasons by a SG in NBA history...

Statistically, I don't think Kobe cracks the top 10...

I'd say Iverson's 01 season beats any year Kobe has had...

Not trying to start an argument, but it's an honest assessment...

LA_Raiders
11-24-2011, 08:58 PM
1-MJ/Kobe
2-TMc
3-Wade
4-West
5-Gervin

Chronz
11-24-2011, 09:01 PM
JJH has read the West bio, ask him.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 09:02 PM
Well all that sounds like a SG to me, at least his early days do. His later days leading up to playing with Goodrich are when he really transitioned into more of a traditional PG.

So Walt a SG? How about Payton? and Oscar or Rose hell even Magic at times. In his early days he was his teams' primarily ball handler (with the exception of his rookie season when Baylor handled those responsibilities) and lead his team in assists every single season as a Laker.


Like the way Magic, Oscar and Cousy play is more in line with traditional PG. To me Tiny was just a scoring PG who cant qualify as a 2 because he didnt have the off-the ball skills or the size to defend the position.

What defines a traditional PG? This is an age old argument that is all a matter of perception. West once led the league in APG. The only players to accomplish that are PGs. While he led his team in assists every single season in which he played (primary creator on offense) Magic himself wasn't even able to do that falling 2nd to Norm Nixon on one occasion. So how can West not be seen as a traditional PG? Because he shot first?


That West usually defended 2's and focused more on scoring than everyone else is what stands out to me, he didnt have the same mindset. Hell he played F in College so when he came to the pros he talked about the adjustment to the position so its not like he came in with a distributing mentality the way all those others guys did.

He didn't have the same mind set but again does that mean he's not a PG. IMO no it does not. Can he not be a different kind of PG?


Im as lost as anyone else is when it comes to defining positions from those days. I always wanted to pigeonhole West as a PG (because I think his body type would be freakish at that position) by todays standards but his lack of a left hand screams SG to me. His overall mentality in his youth was more in line with a SG. I dont think you could have taken a young West and told him to play PG the way we define it. He was better as a scorer than a distributor. Oscar/Cousy/Clyde were the opposite, they were always better passers than they were scorers.

So are you essentially saying that Drexler would be a better PG than he was as an SG?

This is how I look at it your PG is supposed to run your team and make a majority of decisions about how plays will be run and who will get a shot on an offense. From 1962, to 1973, Jerry West shot .479 and went to the line 9.9 times a game. The rest of his teammates shot .452. If youíre Jerry West and youíre the PG, you want your best shooter and/or guy most likely to draw a foul taking the shot a lot of the time. The decision that Jerry West made was that Jerry West should shoot. Given the results, I think itís a smart decision. I personally don't think that because of this he was a SG. He was his team's best scorer as well as their best shooter. He was in the right to play the way he did.

I think in his early years, he was closer to a combo guard. But for pretty much off all of the last half of his career, he was close to 100% PG.

Swashcuff
11-24-2011, 09:04 PM
1-MJ/Kobe
2-TMc
3-Wade
4-West
5-Gervin

How in heaven's name can Kobe's peak be comparable to MJ? Lemme guess 81? :rolleyes:

i.got.the.nutz
11-24-2011, 09:17 PM
How in heaven's name can Kobe's peak be comparable to MJ? Lemme guess 81? :rolleyes:

Maybe if the thread was renamed greatest stat line in a single game by a shooting guard ever :D.

Chronz
11-25-2011, 05:58 AM
So Walt a SG? How about Payton? and Oscar or Rose hell even Magic at times. In his early days he was his teams' primarily ball handler (with the exception of his rookie season when Baylor handled those responsibilities) and lead his team in assists every single season as a Laker.
Nah I dont think those guys fit the bill the way West does. Tmac has led his team in assists and I dont think anyone would confuse him for his teams point guard.



What defines a traditional PG? This is an age old argument that is all a matter of perception.
Well yea, thats kind of the point behind all these labels.


West once led the league in APG. The only players to accomplish that are PGs.
Yea, we are in agreement on his olden days being more in line with typical point-men.


While he led his team in assists every single season in which he played (primary creator on offense) Magic himself wasn't even able to do that falling 2nd to Norm Nixon on one occasion.
Thats why Magic wanted Nixon gone, before that Magic was basically all over the court. He spent some time at the forward spots and some as a SG. Once Nixon was gone, Magic was the full time PG.


So how can West not be seen as a traditional PG? Because he shot first?
I gave more reasons than that but pretty much, those other guys were less scorers and more set-up men, that he was pretty much defending SG's anyways doesnt hurt.


He didn't have the same mind set but again does that mean he's not a PG. IMO no it does not. Can he not be a different kind of PG?

Sure but is that really a definition most people would agree upon?


So are you essentially saying that Drexler would be a better PG than he was as an SG?

Far from it, Portland tried that


This is how I look at it your PG is supposed to run your team and make a majority of decisions about how plays will be run and who will get a shot on an offense. From 1962, to 1973, Jerry West shot .479 and went to the line 9.9 times a game. The rest of his teammates shot .452. If you’re Jerry West and you’re the PG, you want your best shooter and/or guy most likely to draw a foul taking the shot a lot of the time. The decision that Jerry West made was that Jerry West should shoot. Given the results, I think it’s a smart decision. I personally don't think that because of this he was a SG. He was his team's best scorer as well as their best shooter. He was in the right to play the way he did.

But wouldnt you expect your SG to take the most shots and the PG to defer? That West didnt makes him more of a SG than those other guys.


I think in his early years, he was closer to a combo guard. But for pretty much off all of the last half of his career, he was close to 100% PG.

Thats why hes in the discussion.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 11:34 AM
For regular season, my list would look very similar. When adding playoffs, both you and I would shift around a bit. I think Wade would go to #2, Kobe #3, McGrady #4, Manu #5, Iverson #6.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westje01&y1=1966&p2=ginobma01&y2=2005

Manu has easily the weakest regular season argument out of any player mentioned so far. His postseason may close the gap but West is far superior in overall production for a season.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 11:37 AM
Like I said earlier we can't compare single season TS% and other stats of players who played in such different eras and say one is better because of it.

Lets compare their league average TS% to their respective TS%

Brandon Roy

TS% eFG%
Season League Roy League Roy
2009-10 0.543 0.568 0.501 0.508
2008-09 0.545 0.573 0.499 0.512
2007-08 0.540 0.531 0.498 0.485
2006-07 0.541 0.548 0.496 0.492

Clyde Drexler

TS% eFG%
Season League Drexler League Drexler
1996-97 0.536 0.548 0.493 0.508
1995-96 0.542 0.551 0.498 0.484
1994-95 0.543 0.577 0.500 0.521
1993-94 0.528 0.514 0.485 0.460
1992-93 0.536 0.517 0.491 0.448
1991-92 0.532 0.560 0.487 0.509
1990-91 0.534 0.563 0.488 0.505
1989-90 0.536 0.551 0.489 0.505
1988-89 0.537 0.555 0.489 0.504
1987-88 0.538 0.564 0.489 0.509
1986-87 0.538 0.552 0.488 0.506
1985-86 0.541 0.530 0.493 0.480
1984-85 0.543 0.534 0.497 0.497

At their respective peaks Roy was +2.8 in terms of TS% and +1.3 in terms of eFG% while Drexler +2.2 in terms of TS% and +1.5 in terms of eFG%.

Is Roy more efficient as compared to his respective counter parts? Yes he is but does that make up for everything else there is. There are literally too many alternatives in this argument to make a case for Roy. The only medium in which Roy has a case against Drexler is from an advanced statistical POV. When we take all into consideration (intangible worth, competition at the SG, rule changes, intangible worth etc) I honestly see no way Roy could match up with Clyde.

I think taking a look at the league comparison is definately relevant but all that showed me is that Roy is still better than Drexler in advanced metrics and distanced himself even more from his peers. Roy was a complete SG who could do it all and was a better shooter than Drexler. I don't think the comparison is a farce at all. I'd love to hear you elaborate on intangible worth, competition at SG, rule changes, and again on intangible worth which you listed twice. :)

llemon
11-25-2011, 12:43 PM
West over Wade and McGrady

Underdogz∞
11-25-2011, 02:57 PM
It's pretty clear Jordan would own at least 5 of the top 10 seasons for a SG, so this is a thrown together list excluding repeaters:

1. Jordan '88
2. Iverson '01
3. Bryant '06
4. Wade '09
5. Drexler '89
6. McGrady '03
7. Gervin '80
8. Maravich '77
9. Allen '06
10. Carter '01

Ding Ding Ding heres the most correct answer and because he has the years it tells me he has already pulled the numbers besides it just looks right. :D

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 04:04 PM
I think taking a look at the league comparison is definately relevant but all that showed me is that Roy is still better than Drexler in advanced metrics and distanced himself even more from his peers. Roy was a complete SG who could do it all and was a better shooter than Drexler. I don't think the comparison is a farce at all. I'd love to hear you elaborate on intangible worth, competition at SG, rule changes, and again on intangible worth which you listed twice. :)

Why should I have to elaborate though? Shouldn't that be common knowledge? I mean seriously any who knows anything about Clyde Drexler (which I am quite sure you do) would know that in terms of none statistical production he is on another league compared to Roy. Drexler was a better leader, he was a more athletic player thus adding to his defensive advantages,

In terms of competition I highly doubt you think the defenders Roy faced could ever dream of matching up with MJ, Pippen, Dumars, Rodman, Robertson, Payton, Cooper, Moncrief, etc. There were just better perimeter defensive players and better defensive teams when Drexler played.

As for the rule changes c'mon bro. Perimeter play was tougher back when Drexler was in his prime.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 04:09 PM
Why should I have to elaborate though? Shouldn't that be common knowledge? I mean seriously any who knows anything about Clyde Drexler (which I am quite sure you do) would know that in terms of none statistical production he is on another league compared to Roy. Drexler was a better leader, he was a more athletic player thus adding to his defensive advantages,

In terms of competition I highly doubt you think the defenders Roy faced could ever dream of matching up with MJ, Pippen, Dumars, Rodman, Robertson, Payton, Cooper, Moncrief, etc. There were just better perimeter defensive players and better defensive teams when Drexler played.

As for the rule changes c'mon bro. Perimeter play was tougher back when Drexler was in his prime.

You bring up a good point about Clyde having to go against unbelievable defenders like Jordan and Alvin Robertson. Can you imagine how destructive a backcourt of those two players would be? Wow. :speechless:

Hawkeye15
11-25-2011, 05:07 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westje01&y1=1966&p2=ginobma01&y2=2005

Manu has easily the weakest regular season argument out of any player mentioned so far. His postseason may close the gap but West is far superior in overall production for a season.

oh I agree, which is why I said if you include playoffs, Manu moves by a couple guys on my list.

Chronz
11-25-2011, 05:21 PM
You bring up a good point about Clyde having to go against unbelievable defenders like Jordan and Alvin Robertson. Can you imagine how destructive a backcourt of those two players would be? Wow. :speechless:

Brandon Roy at his peak is definitely in the convo with Clyde. The talk of eras is negligible without evidence stating otherwise. I saw Roy tear the Battier/Artest duo to shreds. That was one of the better defensive swings of ANY ERA, so why exactly am I doubting the man?

JordansBulls
11-25-2011, 05:24 PM
Starting list (Not sure whether to include Big O so I wont) Im having trouble identifying Vinces best season, and trying to decide if Julius/Penny played enough SG to qualify.

MJ '91
Kobe '01
Wade '06
West '65
Tmac '03
Sam Jones '65
Gervin '79
Drexler '92
Iverson '01
Ray Allen '01
Moncrief '83
Manu '05


MJ's 1991 is the greatest season ever all time IMO. Not sure why people think MJ in 1988 was better than 1991. He had higher WS in 1988 and a 31.7 to 31.6 in 1988 to 1991 in PER but he had a higher WS/PER 48 minutes in 1991 and his 1991 playoffs was the best ever for a player that won the title.

NJBASEBALL22
11-25-2011, 07:10 PM
I think taking a look at the league comparison is definately relevant but all that showed me is that Roy is still better than Drexler in advanced metrics and distanced himself even more from his peers. Roy was a complete SG who could do it all and was a better shooter than Drexler. I don't think the comparison is a farce at all. I'd love to hear you elaborate on intangible worth, competition at SG, rule changes, and again on intangible worth which you listed twice. :)

Imo, I don't like PER all that much... not to say that it is worthless, but it has it's flaws. The main flaw is it's reliance on shooting percentages or, in better terms, points per shot. And that is the only real aspect of Roy's game that he has over Clyde. Roy is a better 3 pt. shooter than Clyde. Roy was a better rebounder, scorer, and defender. I would call it a wash at distributing, however, with Clyde's ability to drive, I think he was a better creator than Roy was in 08-09. Take for instance, Clyde averaged 6 assists a game that season with Terry Porter being the main ball-handler and averaging 10 assists a game himself (good for 4th in total assists that season). In 08-09, Roy was the main ball handler and creator and finished with less assists than Clyde. Clyde's team played a bit more up tempo though.

Defensively, it isn't even close. I will be the first to admit and actually praise that blocks and steals don't equal being a great defender (see Dennis Rodman as best defender of all time) but in Clyde's case it does. 255 combined steals and blocks compared to Roy's 110. Roy could hold his own on the ball (but still not as good has Clyde), but defending the passing lanes and help side D, Roy couldn't touch Clyde- not many ppl could. Clyde was longer and much more athletic (faster and could jumper higher) than Roy which meant he could just do more than Roy on Defense. This is just what I saw.

basketfan4life
11-25-2011, 07:14 PM
a strong case can be made that McGrady had a better peak regular season than Kobe ever did. Wade as well.

let me guess, he has a better per?

That is his strong argument :)

basketfan4life
11-25-2011, 07:18 PM
How in heaven's name can Kobe's peak be comparable to MJ? Lemme guess 81? :rolleyes:you see problem with this post but...


You're essentially asking for the top 10 single best seasons by a SG in NBA history...

Statistically, I don't think Kobe cracks the top 10...

I'd say Iverson's 01 season beats any year Kobe has had...

Not trying to start an argument, but it's an honest assessment...
you dont see a problem with this right, that is bias...

the idea of kobe tying mj is less absurd then the idea of kobe not being top ten...you guys rock ...

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 07:58 PM
Like I said earlier we can't compare single season TS% and other stats of players who played in such different eras and say one is better because of it.

Lets compare their league average TS% to their respective TS%

Brandon Roy

TS% eFG%
Season League Roy League Roy
2009-10 0.543 0.568 0.501 0.508
2008-09 0.545 0.573 0.499 0.512
2007-08 0.540 0.531 0.498 0.485
2006-07 0.541 0.548 0.496 0.492

Clyde Drexler

TS% eFG%
Season League Drexler League Drexler
1996-97 0.536 0.548 0.493 0.508
1995-96 0.542 0.551 0.498 0.484
1994-95 0.543 0.577 0.500 0.521
1993-94 0.528 0.514 0.485 0.460
1992-93 0.536 0.517 0.491 0.448
1991-92 0.532 0.560 0.487 0.509
1990-91 0.534 0.563 0.488 0.505
1989-90 0.536 0.551 0.489 0.505
1988-89 0.537 0.555 0.489 0.504
1987-88 0.538 0.564 0.489 0.509
1986-87 0.538 0.552 0.488 0.506
1985-86 0.541 0.530 0.493 0.480
1984-85 0.543 0.534 0.497 0.497

At their respective peaks Roy was +2.8 in terms of TS% and +1.3 in terms of eFG% while Drexler +2.2 in terms of TS% and +1.5 in terms of eFG%.

Is Roy more efficient as compared to his respective counter parts? Yes he is but does that make up for everything else there is. There are literally too many alternatives in this argument to make a case for Roy. The only medium in which Roy has a case against Drexler is from an advanced statistical POV. When we take all into consideration (intangible worth, competition at the SG, rule changes, intangible worth etc) I honestly see no way Roy could match up with Clyde.

league averages:

Season Ast/FG Unassisted
2008-09 0.566 0.434
1988-89 0.602 0.398


I wonder if the fact that the league had more assisted field goals (generally true about that era) vs. unassisted now plays into the context. Are guys more selfish now? Or is there just an emphasis on shot creation vs. playing more team oriented ball? Either way, back in Clyde's era, his passing would've been more valued than Roy's passing in his era. On the other hand, Roy's ability to create a shot on his own would be more valued now. Or maybe I'm looking at this wrong and it's in fact the other way around.

NJBASEBALL22
11-25-2011, 08:56 PM
I wouldn't take it that far.

Bryants top five PER:
1. 2005-2006- 28.0
2. 2002-2003- 26.2
3. 2006-2007- 26.1
4. 2000-2001- 24.5
5. 2008-2009- 24.4

McGradys top five PER:
1. 2002-2003- 30.3
2. 2003-2004- 25.2
3. 2001-2002- 25.1
4. 2000-2001- 24.9
5. 2006-2007- 23.2


Bryants top five TS%:
1. 2006-2007- .580%
2. 2007-2008- .576%
3. 2004-2005- .563%
4. 2008-2009- .561%
5. 2005-2006- .559%

McGradys top five TS%:
1. 2002-2003- .564%
2. 2001-2002- .532%
3. 2004-2005- .526%
4. 2003-2004- .526%
5. 2000-2001- .521%

McGradys second highest TS% of .532% in 2002 is lower than any TS% Bryant has ever posted over his 15 year career. Be it five years, ten year, or overall Bryant crushed McGrady in scoring efficiency.

Bryants top five Win-shares:
1. 2005-2006: 15.3
2. 2002-2003: 14.9
3. 2007-2008: 13.8
4. 2006-2007: 13.0
5. 2008-2009: 12.7

Five year peak WS total: 69.7

McGradys top five Win-shares:
1. 2002-2003: 16.1
2. 2000-2001: 12.2
3. 2004-2005: 12.0
4. 2001-2002: 11.5
5. 2006-2007: 8.6

Five year peak WS total: 60.4

Edge Bryant by 9.3 win-shares over five season peaks.


Bryants top five WS/48:
1. 2005-2006: 0.224
2. 2003-2004: 0.210
3. 2002-2003: 0.210
4. 2007-2008: 0.208
5. 2008-2009: 0.206

McGradys top five WS/48:
1. 2002-2003: 0.262
2. 2001-2002: 0.189
3. 2000-2001: 0.189
4. 2004-2005: 0.180
5. 2006-2007: 0.163

McGradys second highest WS/48 in '01 and '02 would be good enough for tenth under Bryants numbers. Bryant posted a WS/48 of 0.196 or higher nine times, McGrady did it once. Although McGradys single season peak crushes Bryants single season peak in WS/48.

In all I'd say their five year PER-peaks are comparable, but their TS%s, win-shares and win-shares per forty-eight minutes aren't.




Drexler '88-'89
PER: 23.6
TS%: .555%
WS: 12.6
WS/48: 0.197

Roy '08-'09
PER: 24.0
TS%: .573%
WS: 13.5
WS/48: 0.223

What's ridiculous about that comparison? Using the Drexler-peak season you chose, Roy has him beat in every major advanced statistic metric. Roy doesn't touch Drexler overall, but in a discussion of single-season peak Roy is right there with Drexler, an argument can be made in his favor.

I liked the rest of your post a lot.


I would never say that T-Mac had a better career than Kobe, however, over a 5 year stretch (00-04) it is very close and I would say given the circumstances, T-Mac was playing better:

Kobe 00-04
age 22-26
games- 361
20.8 shots per game
45.2 FG%
27.1 ppg
5.96 rpg
5.5 apg
1.7 spg

T-Mac 00-04
age 21-25
games- 373
22.38 shots per game
44.3 FG%
27.62 ppg
6.83 rpg
5.4 apg
1.57 spg

Pretty similar without getting into advanced stats. Now look into the teams... It would appear that T-Mac should have better all around numbers because he was the focal point of the offense, however, in reality, Kobe benefited from having a great supporting cast and Shaq. The year Shaq left, Kobe's FG % fell to the floor and that is easily explainable. With Shaq no longer there to draw double and triple teams, teams were able to focus on Kobe... exactly what happened to T-Mac playing with the likes of Pat Garrity and a washed up 33 year old Shawn Kemp.

I hate to break it down like this because both players had such similar styles and jumpers... nearly identical. But they were in very different situations.

Advanced stats:

Their eFG% was near the same hovering in the 48% range and Kobe holds a slight lead in the true FG% but nothing insane. But the reb%, ast% and turnover% all significantly favor T-Mac.

Kobe: reb% 8.1, 7.9, 9.3, 8.3, 8.2
Tmac: reb% 10.4, 11.4, 9.5, 8.5, 8.9

Kobe: ast% 23.0, 25.9, 27.2, 24.4, 28.5
TMac: ast% 22.8, 25.8, 30.0, 28.3, 28.6

Kobe: to% 11.1, 10.7, 11.4, 10.8, 14.3
TMac: to% 9.1, 9.4, 8.4, 9.1, 9.5

The to% heavily favors T-Mac because he handled the ball so much more than Kobe despite Kobe having much higher TO rates.

So we learned that TMac is clearly a better rebounder (but who knows if he played with a big like Shaq), TMac was a slightly better passer (despite not having much to pass to), and TMac was better controlling the ball/offense. I'd take that stuff with a slightly worse shooting %. Anyway the shooting % can be misleading too, Kobe had a lot more open shots and more room to drive with teams doubling and tripling Shaq, a luxury TMac didn't have. Kobe was better defensively though.

I also don't like the winshares method... mainly because your team needs to win to have these winshares. There is a big difference between Kobe's Lakers averaging 51 wins per season and TMac's Magic averaging 40 wins a season. A better method might be winshares per team win. I don't know. So the way this works is: you find out the average amount of wins for each of their respective teams... Kobe's teams averaged 50.8 wins over the 00-04 span while TMac's averaged only 40.2. Now the next part, find the average WS each player earned over that same span... Kobe was at 11.54 [(11.3+12.7+14.9+10.7+8.1)/5=11.54], TMac was at 12.04 [(12.2+11.5+16.1+8.4+12.0)/5+12.04]. So off the bat, TMac wins the WS per season at 12.04 to Kobe's 11.54. Now... it separates even more. Take into account the average amount of wins and you realize that TMac had 10 and a half less chances to gain WS's. So divide the WS average by average wins. TMac earned .299 WS per win while Kobe averaged .227 WS per win.

I could be wrong with that last formula, that might not be how it works or whatever, but I took a stab at how I understood it. Maybe playing w/ another superstar hindered Kobe's WS total but I am not really too sure.

mrblisterdundee
11-25-2011, 09:19 PM
Some people misunderstood the question, although only using a single season makes it difficult. If we talked about the top-10 most dominant seasons, I think Oscar Robertson would have more entries than Michael Jordan.

1. Oscar Robertson (1961-62) - 30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg, 12.5 rpg
2. Michael Jordan (1988-89) - 32.5 ppg, 8 apg, 8 rpg, 2.9 spg
3. Jerry West (1955-66) - 31.3 ppg, 6.1 apg, 7.1 rpg
4. Kobe Bryant (2002-03) - 30 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.9 rpg, 2.2 spg
5. Clyde Drexler (1988-89) - 27.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.7 spg
6. Allen Iverson (2004-05) - 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg, 4 rpg, 2.4 spg
7. Tracy McGrady (2002-03) - 32.1 ppg, 5.5 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.7 spg
8. Dwayne Wade (2005-06) - 27.4 ppg, 7.5 apg, 4.7 rpg, 2.1 spg, 1.2 bpg
9. George Gervin (1979-80) - 33.1 ppg, 2.6 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.4 spg, 1 bpg
10. Pete Maravich (1976-77) - 31.1 ppg, 5.4 apg, 5.1 rpg, 1.2 spg

It's really hard leaving out guys like Vince Carter and Ray Allen, and some of these are basically interchangeable.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2011, 09:40 PM
let me guess, he has a better per?

That is his strong argument :)

Manu has had a couple of incredible playoff runs, individually. That is why.

Swashcuff
11-25-2011, 10:35 PM
you see problem with this post but...


you dont see a problem with this right, that is bias...

the idea of kobe tying mj is less absurd then the idea of kobe not being top ten...you guys rock ...

So wait because I don't have an issue with that I am wrong? It's more foolish to say Kobe's peak is as great as Jordan's than to say that A.I. peak was greater than Kobe's.

It's funny because you saw an issue with my post but not with the one that said Kobe was comparable to MJ.

That is bias.

You can't call me out for being biased you must be a crazy person. I myself said that Kobe's peak is better than A.I.'s so why on earth would I bother myself arguing against.

You blatantly biased posters should be the last ones looking to call anyone out.

KnicksorBust
11-26-2011, 12:58 AM
Some people misunderstood the question, although only using a single season makes it difficult. If we talked about the top-10 most dominant seasons, I think Oscar Robertson would have more entries than Michael Jordan.

1. Oscar Robertson (1961-62) - 30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg, 12.5 rpg
2. Michael Jordan (1988-89) - 32.5 ppg, 8 apg, 8 rpg, 2.9 spg
3. Jerry West (1955-66) - 31.3 ppg, 6.1 apg, 7.1 rpg
4. Kobe Bryant (2002-03) - 30 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.9 rpg, 2.2 spg
5. Clyde Drexler (1988-89) - 27.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.7 spg
6. Allen Iverson (2004-05) - 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg, 4 rpg, 2.4 spg
7. Tracy McGrady (2002-03) - 32.1 ppg, 5.5 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.7 spg
8. Dwayne Wade (2005-06) - 27.4 ppg, 7.5 apg, 4.7 rpg, 2.1 spg, 1.2 bpg9. George Gervin (1979-80) - 33.1 ppg, 2.6 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.4 spg, 1 bpg
10. Pete Maravich (1976-77) - 31.1 ppg, 5.4 apg, 5.1 rpg, 1.2 spg

It's really hard leaving out guys like Vince Carter and Ray Allen, and some of these are basically interchangeable.

Is this the consensus Wade year or do most people prefer his '09?

PatsSoxKnicks
11-26-2011, 01:16 AM
Is this the consensus Wade year or do most people prefer his '09?

I would go with 06 because he had a MJ like Finals performance (help from the officials or not).

basketfan4life
11-26-2011, 07:04 AM
So wait because I don't have an issue with that I am wrong? It's more foolish to say Kobe's peak is as great as Jordan's than to say that A.I. peak was greater than Kobe's.

It's funny because you saw an issue with my post but not with the one that said Kobe was comparable to MJ.

That is bias.

You can't call me out for being biased you must be a crazy person. I myself said that Kobe's peak is better than A.I.'s so why on earth would I bother myself arguing against.

You blatantly biased posters should be the last ones looking to call anyone out.

i'm not talking about iverson-kobe,i'm talking about the guy saying kobe doesn't have top 10 peak of a sg, those two posts are above/under each other but you choose to bash the one with Kobe tying mj's peak, now tell me which is more ridicuolus?

and i'm not biased at all, mj's peak is well above kobe's peak, Kobe's peak is definitely in top 10 among sg's, top 3 actually(i take him at 2 but that can change for every person )..,i am biased? ********.

oh by the way you did a real great job stating that kobe has a better peak than iverson...way to go :)

Heediot
11-26-2011, 07:09 AM
Jordan
Kobe
Reggie miller
Ray allen
T-mac
Vince carter
Joe dumars
Drexler
Dwayne
In no particular order. Except for top 2

No Jerry West?

basketfan4life
11-26-2011, 07:25 AM
Manu has had a couple of incredible playoff runs, individually. That is why.

i'm talking about tmac

Swashcuff
11-26-2011, 08:12 AM
i'm not talking about iverson-kobe,i'm talking about the guy saying kobe doesn't have top 10 peak of a sg, those two posts are above/under each other but you choose to bash the one with Kobe tying mj's peak, now tell me which is more ridicuolus?

and i'm not biased at all, mj's peak is well above kobe's peak, Kobe's peak is definitely in top 10 among sg's, top 3 actually(i take him at 2 but that can change for every person )..,i am biased? ********.

oh by the way you did a real great job stating that kobe has a better peak than iverson...way to go :)

:nod: