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KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 08:29 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7274143/nba-lockout-new-nba-talks-aimed-resolving-lawsuits-sources-say

The sides in the NBA labor dispute, which reached its 146th day Wednesday, have re-opened negotiations aimed at resolving the lawsuits recently filed by players, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.

The two sides agreed Monday to resume talks for the first time in nearly two weeks, sources said, with discussions commencing Tuesday and continuing Wednesday.





NBA Lockout

The NBA owners have locked out the players, and little progress has been made in negotiations. ESPN.com Topics keeps you up to date with all of the latest on the NBA's ongoing lockout. Topics Page


The primary push for the talks, according to The New York Times, is a desire to make one last run at ending the five-month labor dispute in time to start the season on Christmas. But the latest negotiations are considered part of settlement talks relating to the litigation, according to the Times.

The Times also reported that the league has a 66-game season in mind if the sides can agree to the outline of a new labor deal in time for Christmas Day games. NBA commissioner David Stern has said on numerous occasions that the league needs a month after the sides shake hands to finish putting a new labor deal in writing and allow for a compressed training camp and free agency period before the regular season begins.

Lawyers from both sides are primarily involved in the new negotiations, sources said, along with Stern and NBA Players Association executive director Billy Hunter.

Yahoo! Sports, which first reported the resumption of talks Wednesday, reported that union president Derek Fisher was not part of this week's negotiations. The union filed a "disclaimer of interest" last week to dissolve itself and file a series of anti-trust suits against the NBA in California and Minnesota following the latest breakdown in talks.

The NBA said Wednesday that "it remains in favor of a negotiated resolution (to the lockout)" but declined to comment further.

Christmas games generally are considered the launching pad for the NBA's national TV schedule. There were three games on the original Dec. 25 schedule -- Boston at New York at noon ET on ESPN, followed by an ABC doubleheader featuring an NBA Finals rematch pitting Miami at Dallas (2:30 p.m.) and Chicago visiting the Los Angeles Lakers (5 p.m.) -- but league officials are expected to draft an entirely new schedule if a deal can be struck to save the season.

Sources close to the situation told ESPN.com that Stern has privately surveyed a handful of owners about their willingness to ease the restrictions on the proposed mid-level exception in a new labor agreement, one of the biggest areas of contention on the players' side.

The players continue to push for the full mid-level exception to be made available to all teams -- not just teams under the luxury-tax threshold -- and sources say league officials have discussed whether to make that concession in their next proposal to the players.

Based on the league's most recent proposal rejected by the union on Nov. 13, teams that stay out of luxury-tax territory would be able to offer free agents the full mid-level exception, worth $5 million annually for a maximum of four years. But tax teams would be restricted to offer a so-called "mini" mid-level worth a maximum of $3 million annually over three seasons.

It is believed the league's next proposal to the players will contain tweaks to some of the "system" issues that the players have strongly objected to in recent negotiations. The players have long insisted -- in exchange for accepting a 50/50 split of annual basketball-related income after earning a 57-percent share of BRI in the final year of the previous labor deal -- that the league's proposed restrictions against luxury-tax teams must be relaxed.

Information from ESPN.com's Marc Stein, ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard and The Associated Press was used in this report.

jimbobjarree
11-24-2011, 12:22 AM
toying with our emotions again.

Cant help thinking about how awesome a christmas day would be combined with opening day for the NBA season though.

mzgrizz
11-24-2011, 12:26 AM
Meh, I'll believe it when it happens.
When you have made me a non believer, NBA, you have really ****ed up.

GoPacers33
11-24-2011, 12:29 AM
toying with our emotions again.

Cant help thinking about how awesome a christmas day would be combined with opening day for the NBA season though.

Hell yes

GIANTKNICK
11-24-2011, 02:32 AM
Here we go again. Dam u owners give them something or nobody gets nothing.

lakers4sho
11-24-2011, 04:48 AM
no progress, same ****

mdm692
11-24-2011, 05:20 AM
MIA, ORL, LA, PHX, BOS. These teams are pushing the hardest to get a deal done, owners should score alot of points with FA and rest of players specially if players get their way in some of the system issues.

Tom Stone
11-24-2011, 08:37 AM
The only thing that would make me mad... is if they were not talking at all......This is a good sign............Basketball on Christmas would be huge

Mr Costanza
11-24-2011, 09:30 AM
If the 30 days to get ready statement was real they will have to get this done by tomorrow to have Christmas day games.

Hellcrooner
11-24-2011, 10:21 AM
lol, rocket sience.

rise a bit the mle and not make distinction between lt teams and non lt teams.

allow sign and trade for lt teams.

Its a deal.

**** michael jordan.

owners really willing to lose a season over those little things?

gwrighter
11-24-2011, 01:59 PM
LEGGGOOOOOOO

Get the deal DONE!

GodsSon
11-24-2011, 02:14 PM
LEGGGOOOOOOO

Get the deal DONE!

Now!!!

MJ-BULLS
11-24-2011, 02:18 PM
meh, this is nothing.

gwrighter
11-24-2011, 02:36 PM
meh, this is nothing.

:speechless:

this is actually fairly significant. If they are willing to talk then obviously they are not willing for this to go to trial. Which means that there is an increased chance of their being a season. I know its hard to have any hope until a deal is done but we won't have ANY indication of a deal being close to done until it is actually accepted.

PleaseBeNice
11-24-2011, 02:37 PM
yawn. ill be sleeping over here

Big Zo
11-24-2011, 02:43 PM
yawn. ill be sleeping over here

Liar! Anyone who is still viewing this forum has their hopes up again!

ink
11-24-2011, 03:02 PM
:speechless:

this is actually fairly significant. If they are willing to talk then obviously they are not willing for this to go to trial. Which means that there is an increased chance of their being a season. I know its hard to have any hope until a deal is done but we won't have ANY indication of a deal being close to done until it is actually accepted.

It is significant but it's also dangerous. The league already diluted the system progress they were hoping for. Sometimes people do really ****ing stupid things to broker deals and I'm concerned that will happen here. The LT can't be declawed. It's the only part of the deal left standing that will keep the big spenders from routinely dominating the league. I would rather see them let the season go than see a repeat of the last few CBA last-minute panic deals ...

It's funny. So many people on here ridicule the GMs that cave and give in to stupid contract offers for poor players. We're seeing basically the same scenario right now where a poor deal is imminent, and yet people are cheering it on! This is exactly how the so-called poor GMs get rail-roaded into terrible deals, terrible contracts, and terrible CBAs. So, for those people who love to ridicule the GMs whose clubs are in trouble, remember that you participated in the brokering of those terrible deals.

Anything for a season (bad CBA or not).
Anything for a free agent (bad or not).
Anything for a MLE player (bad or not).

This CBA negotiation may have been the best chance the league will ever have had to right itself and regain control of itself.

If they squander it they may never get another chance.

smith&wesson
11-24-2011, 03:07 PM
whatever. these guys need to get over themselves. im over it ... let me know when the nba is back up and running.

gwrighter
11-24-2011, 03:49 PM
It is significant but it's also dangerous. The league already diluted the system progress they were hoping for. Sometimes people do really ****ing stupid things to broker deals and I'm concerned that will happen here. The LT can't be declawed. It's the only part of the deal left standing that will keep the big spenders from routinely dominating the league. I would rather see them let the season go than see a repeat of the last few CBA last-minute panic deals ...

It's funny. So many people on here ridicule the GMs that cave and give in to stupid contract offers for poor players. We're seeing basically the same scenario right now where a poor deal is imminent, and yet people are cheering it on! This is exactly how the so-called poor GMs get rail-roaded into terrible deals, terrible contracts, and terrible CBAs. So, for those people who love to ridicule the GMs whose clubs are in trouble, remember that you participated in the brokering of those terrible deals.

Anything for a season (bad CBA or not).
Anything for a free agent (bad or not).
Anything for a MLE player (bad or not).

This CBA negotiation may have been the best chance the league will ever have had to right itself and regain control of itself.

If they squander it they may never get another chance.

I agree that it can't be declawed, its pretty much the only thing that encourages parity. I hope they leave the lux tax how it is and recede on the BRI demands instead, give the players more money in turn for having more parity.

in response to your second paragraph:

That is exactly the circular argument that is being put forth when posters talk about blaming mgmt. Not knowing that it is the pressure that players & their entourage put on the owners & MGMT that lead to bad decision making.

PlezPlayDKnicks
11-24-2011, 03:59 PM
Lose the season to save the small markets or save the season , get paid and Capitolize on a great season. I know my answer

ink
11-24-2011, 04:03 PM
I agree that it can't be declawed, its pretty much the only thing that encourages parity. I hope they leave the lux tax how it is and recede on the BRI demands instead, give the players more money in turn for having more parity.

in response to your second paragraph:

That is exactly the circular argument that is being put forth when posters talk about blaming mgmt. Not knowing that it is the pressure that players & their entourage put on the owners & MGMT that lead to bad decision making.

People just don't learn. They're about to make the same mistakes all over again. :facepalm:

GiantsSwaGG
11-24-2011, 04:21 PM
There won't be an NBA season so it's kind of pointless to start a thread about the owners and players resuming talks since it's gonna end the same way it did last time!

Arch Stanton
11-25-2011, 02:00 AM
It is significant but it's also dangerous. The league already diluted the system progress they were hoping for. Sometimes people do really ****ing stupid things to broker deals and I'm concerned that will happen here. The LT can't be declawed. It's the only part of the deal left standing that will keep the big spenders from routinely dominating the league. I would rather see them let the season go than see a repeat of the last few CBA last-minute panic deals ...

It's funny. So many people on here ridicule the GMs that cave and give in to stupid contract offers for poor players. We're seeing basically the same scenario right now where a poor deal is imminent, and yet people are cheering it on! This is exactly how the so-called poor GMs get rail-roaded into terrible deals, terrible contracts, and terrible CBAs. So, for those people who love to ridicule the GMs whose clubs are in trouble, remember that you participated in the brokering of those terrible deals.

Anything for a season (bad CBA or not).
Anything for a free agent (bad or not).
Anything for a MLE player (bad or not).

This CBA negotiation may have been the best chance the league will ever have had to right itself and regain control of itself.

If they squander it they may never get another chance.

So true. I hate when people pull that card or "They didn't surround such player with enough talent." Like it's so easy.

Arch Stanton
11-25-2011, 02:04 AM
People just don't learn. They're about to make the same mistakes all over again. :facepalm:

Ink, do you really think the NBA is going to go forward with the overhaul you desire? Based on some of your responses it almost seems like you're asking for a cultural shift.

iggypop123
11-25-2011, 02:07 AM
sunday night expect either a breaking news deal done or talks end season in danger.
i fear this is stern trolling the players about the pull the rug on them. the owners are really set on screwing the union and the league over.

devilsheat25
11-25-2011, 02:26 AM
No way a deal gets done anytime soon. Not sure why the players would even risk it when you have a lawsuit filed.

ink
11-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Ink, do you really think the NBA is going to go forward with the overhaul you desire? Based on some of your responses it almost seems like you're asking for a cultural shift.

I doubt they will but I know they need a major cultural shift. The players need to understand for starters that it's a privilege to play in this league. There are a handful of players for whom that may not be completely true -- the top 10 say. But their mercenary attitude is spreading throughout the league. That needs to be changed, and some of the new ideas the league wants would change that attitude over time.

Let me put it this way, imagine how deflating it is to teams when your star wants to leave or when you are constantly being put down by the arrogant few. That doesn't happen as often in other sports with more league balance. I really think that attitude can shift when players realize that part of the obligation they have to the league is to support ALL PARTS of the league and be more professional. That sense could be created by making it impossible for big spenders to stack teams. That's why a hard cap is preferable but a luxury tax that really prohibits the LT teams from having the full MLE could really help. Players would learn that they are PART of a league, not just out for themselves, or for their "ring". Their job and their pay grade should obligate them to think of more than themselves. And without the ability to just bail on their teams and join the perennially stacked teams, they would have to accept it or not be part of the league. Oh, I know, such hardship. ;)

Over just a few years, players would accept the inevitable and the culture change would begin. Remember, there are tons of great character people in the NBA. They're just not the most influential. The most influential are the most disloyal now. That can change and it will benefit ALL fans.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 01:11 PM
It is significant but it's also dangerous. The league already diluted the system progress they were hoping for. Sometimes people do really ****ing stupid things to broker deals and I'm concerned that will happen here. The LT can't be declawed. It's the only part of the deal left standing that will keep the big spenders from routinely dominating the league. I would rather see them let the season go than see a repeat of the last few CBA last-minute panic deals ...

It's funny. So many people on here ridicule the GMs that cave and give in to stupid contract offers for poor players. We're seeing basically the same scenario right now where a poor deal is imminent, and yet people are cheering it on! This is exactly how the so-called poor GMs get rail-roaded into terrible deals, terrible contracts, and terrible CBAs. So, for those people who love to ridicule the GMs whose clubs are in trouble, remember that you participated in the brokering of those terrible deals.

Anything for a season (bad CBA or not).
Anything for a free agent (bad or not).
Anything for a MLE player (bad or not).

This CBA negotiation may have been the best chance the league will ever have had to right itself and regain control of itself.

If they squander it they may never get another chance.

I don't understand this "sky is falling" attitude about big markets dominating small markets. There are plenty of examples of top spending teams that have failed and small market teams that have had success. Baseball survives without this desperate attempt at parity. Aren't owners aware of the soft cap when their purchase their franchises? You buy a business and don't put money into it, you might not succeed. It's that simple. These owners are billion business men and yet we need a commissioner to step in, protect them from themselves and make them all "play fair."

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 01:19 PM
^ thats a killer redraft team, you should win hands down.

ink
11-25-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't understand this "sky is falling" attitude about big markets dominating small markets. There are plenty of examples of top spending teams that have failed and small market teams that have had success. Baseball survives without this desperate attempt at parity. Aren't owners aware of the soft cap when their purchase their franchises? You buy a business and don't put money into it, you might not succeed. It's that simple. These owners are billion business men and yet we need a commissioner to step in, protect them from themselves and make them all "play fair."

Says the big market fan. ;)

I don't think people should get their hopes up about a quick resolution.

If they compromise any more we'll have another terrible CBA. Remember, all the players are giving up is money. What the league is giving up is organizational integrity. They can't do that out of a sense of panic. I'm concerned they will. I'm hoping a bad deal isn't brokered at the last minute like the last two CBAs were. Why have a lockout in the first place if you achieve nothing with it?

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 01:28 PM
^ says the big market ( who would do much better on a free market) fan too.

ink
11-25-2011, 01:34 PM
^ says the big market ( who would do much better on a free market) fan too.

I'm aware Toronto is a big market. I'm not into this polarizing big market vs small market or owners vs players garbage. The only reason we do that is because sports fans have a hard time conceiving of more than two sides, black and white, to a topic. It always has to be a comparison or a competition.

Unfortunately this kind of thinking won't build a strong league. For THEIR OWN GOOD they need to figure out a way to create a level playing field in the NBA. They have to think outside of their own biases. Players have to think beyond getting rings and making max dollars, and owners have to think beyond their own interests. The big spenders have to consider the value of the 20 teams right now that have no shot at a championship. I'm pretty sure the small markets are already quite aware of the value of the most successful franchises to their box office take. They are working together and you have to give David Stern a ton of credit for brokering that cooperation within the owners' ranks.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 01:36 PM
^ thats a killer redraft team, you should win hands down.

Agreed. Now make sure you stay active the next week or so so you can share that opinion in my matchups. :laugh:


Says the big market fan. ;)

I don't think people should get their hopes up about a quick resolution.

If they compromise any more we'll have another terrible CBA. Remember, all the players are giving up is money. What the league is giving up is organizational integrity. They can't do that out of a sense of panic. I'm concerned they will. I'm hoping a bad deal isn't brokered at the last minute like the last two CBAs were. Why have a lockout in the first place if you achieve nothing with it?

I remember reading that a 53%/47% BRI split would have had the owners break even. With them sending the players all the way down from 57% to a 50/50 split, wouldn't that have been a huge accomplishment on the owners side? Plus they have limitted S&T, changed the MLE, toughened the luxury tax. I think the owners should make a few concessions to save the season.

ink
11-25-2011, 01:45 PM
Agreed. Now make sure you stay active the next week or so so you can share that opinion in my matchups. :laugh:



I remember reading that a 53%/47% BRI split would have had the owners break even. With them sending the players all the way down from 57% to a 50/50 split, wouldn't that have been a huge accomplishment on the owners side? Plus they have limitted S&T, changed the MLE, toughened the luxury tax. I think the owners should make a few concessions to save the season.

I really don't think the money issue is the biggest issue. Their accomplishments have been very small considering how much the league needs its imbalance addressed.

Put it this way: the money split is a temporary solution at best; money gets spent and then you have nothing, no permanent improvements in the league. And the progress they made on system change is relatively minor and all hinges on old, dysfunctional CBA terms. They need to distance themselves from the old CBAs. The players will fight that to the end because it's in their interest to preserve the unbelievable luxury they have had over the last few years.

The biggest danger right now is that if the two sides don't talk they will be in the hands of some random judges and some technical legal points that somehow turn this whole thing inside out. We know that a good lawyer can get OJ off for murder, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that a good lawyer from the players' side could get an anti-trust decision in their favour, whether it's deserved or not.

I'm sure the league has its concerns about that very scenario and that is what keeps their feet to the fire right now. I hope they don't give away any more or sign a bad deal out of panic.

ewmania
11-25-2011, 01:56 PM
i don't know man

last time I checked only 15 players can join a team and its like over 300 players..

who cares if guys want to go anywhere they want... its tons of players who need work

lebron wade bosh aren't the only talent lurking around

YoungOne
11-25-2011, 02:12 PM
glad I'm on the road during this one, when I'm home I assume reading "No Deal"...

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:12 PM
no matter wich rules you use there will NEVER be more than 8 teams with a shot at the title, specially if star calls are not removed.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:24 PM
no matter wich rules you use there will NEVER be more than 8 teams with a shot at the title, specially if star calls are not removed.

Which 8 teams are the only ones that can win a title? Please list them.

ink
11-25-2011, 02:28 PM
no matter wich rules you use there will NEVER be more than 8 teams with a shot at the title, specially if star calls are not removed.

But those 8 teams don't always have to be the same 8 teams. And it isn't always about titles, it's about being more balanced and competitive. I doubted it would work with the NHL but after 5 years I can see clearly how well it can work. So I have zero doubts that this is the way to go for a league that wants to be competitive across the board.

Last year Ottawa, Florida, Edmonton, and Toronto were poor to pathetic. This year they're among the leaders. Only one of those markets is a big market. There is a chance for renewal for weak teams that is far more attractive to local fans, which is EXACTLY the point. They're not guaranteeing rings, they're trying to ensure competitiveness at the start of every season.

Right now, the NBA is the no-hope league for about 15-20 teams every year, just like it is in MLB, which free market fans like to use as an example. The NHL, with the cap system the NBA wants to implement, gives teams a chance to compete every year. So does the NFL.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Which 8 teams are the only ones that can win a title? Please list them.

its an idea not a reality imagine if the top 30 players would be "ideally" one in each franchise ( wich would never happen anyway unless theres a redraft each seasons begin)

ok, the Wade, kObe, Lebron, Rose, Durant, Howard teams Have a good chance to win, the Melo//dirk//Paul/ have a slight chance.

thats 9 teams with a chance.


or do you honestly think that the Pau team, the Manu team or the Pierce team would have a chance to win?


thats why all the parity talk is B:S

not to mention if you take parity measures NOW without disbanding teams, we are bound to be watchign thunder vs heat finals till we get sick of it.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:34 PM
But those 8 teams don't always have to be the same 8 teams. And it isn't always about titles, it's about being more balanced and competitive. I doubted it would work with the NHL but after 5 years I can see clearly how well it can work. So I have zero doubts that this is the way to go for a league that wants to be competitive across the board.

Last year Ottawa, Florida, Edmonton, and Toronto were poor to pathetic. This year they're among the leaders. Only one of those markets is a big market. There is a chance for renewal for weak teams that is far more attractive to local fans, which is EXACTLY the point. They're not guaranteeing rings, they're trying to ensure competitiveness at the start of every season.

Right now, the NBA is the no-hope league for about 15-20 teams every year, just like it is in MLB, which free market fans like to use as an example. The NHL, with the cap system the NBA wants to implement, gives teams a chance to compete every year. So does the NFL.

In the last 20 years we've had 17 different teams make it to the finals. In the last 12 years we've had 12 different teams make it to the finals. That's not enough change? Any good GM can draft, sign, and trade their way up the ladder in the NBA so I don't buy this "8 elite teams" or "20 dead teams" BS.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:38 PM
its an idea not a reality imagine if the top 30 players would be "ideally" one in each franchise ( wich would never happen anyway unless theres a redraft each seasons begin)

ok, the Wade, kObe, Lebron, Rose, Durant, Howard teams Have a good chance to win, the Melo//dirk//Paul/ have a slight chance.

thats 9 teams with a chance.


or do you honestly think that the Pau team, the Manu team or the Pierce team would have a chance to win?


thats why all the parity talk is B:S

not to mention if you take parity measures NOW without disbanding teams, we are bound to be watchign thunder vs heat finals till we get sick of it.

First of all, are dynasties really that bad for sports? Bulls-Yankees-Patriots all brought big ratings to their sports and created phenomenal rivalries. I couldn't turn away from MJ vs. the Knicks.

Second of all, your key example for lack of parity is a finals matchup THAT HAS NEVER EVEN HAPPENED! How can we be "sick" of some matchup that we haven't even seen yet? Was Bird-Magic really that boring for people in the 80s? I love a good rivalry and you don't get those unless teams repeatedly face each other at the highest level.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:39 PM
First of all, are dynasties really that bad for sports? Bulls-Yankees-Patriots all brought big ratings to their sports and created phenomenal rivalries. I couldn't turn away from MJ vs. the Knicks.

Second of all, your key example for lack of parity is a finals matchup THAT HAS NEVER EVEN HAPPENED! How can we be "sick" of some matchup that we haven't even seen yet? Was Bird-Magic really that boring for people in the 80s? I love a good rivalry and you don't get those unless teams repeatedly face each other at the highest level.

hey im actually calling b.s on the "parity" stupidness from the owners.

its ridiculous.

ink
11-25-2011, 02:41 PM
In the last 20 years we've had 17 different teams make it to the finals. In the last 12 years we've had 12 different teams make it to the finals. That's not enough change? Any good GM can draft, sign, and trade their way up the ladder in the NBA so I don't buy this "8 elite teams" or "20 dead teams" BS.

Again the strawman argument that it's only about finals. It's about renewal and the chance to turn your team around. That is happening in the NHL. The model is right there to look at. Last year another perennial loser turned it around and became a force to be reckoned with: the Tampa Bay Lightning, another small market team. It makes for a very exciting league. Something I don't find with the MLB. Basically the MLB is a feeder league for about 4-5 big market teams. That's the way the NBA is headed too and it blows.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:44 PM
^ mmmm theres 0 teams that have not been to playoffs last decade in the nba.

and in the last five years only wolves have not been in the playoffs.


so?

kjoke
11-25-2011, 02:47 PM
NBPA Executive committee members privately expressing unprecedented optimism that a deal will get done this time. League sources too.

Sam Amick

Don't toy with me please

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:49 PM
^ mmmm theres 0 teams that have not been to playoffs last decade in the nba.

and in the last five years only wolves have not been in the playoffs.


so?

Exactly. That's enough competitive balance for me. Ink, what are you really looking for? 5 new teams to make the playoffs every season? That's not realistic in any sport.

ink
11-25-2011, 02:50 PM
First of all, are dynasties really that bad for sports? Bulls-Yankees-Patriots all brought big ratings to their sports and created phenomenal rivalries. I couldn't turn away from MJ vs. the Knicks.

Second of all, your key example for lack of parity is a finals matchup THAT HAS NEVER EVEN HAPPENED! How can we be "sick" of some matchup that we haven't even seen yet? Was Bird-Magic really that boring for people in the 80s? I love a good rivalry and you don't get those unless teams repeatedly face each other at the highest level.

People do this all the time. Justify an entire dysfunctional system by talking selectively about one key rivalry or a couple of dynasty teams. It's not what parity or competitive balance is about. Dynasties continue to exist. The thing that changes is that the league behind the dynasties is more competitive. And it is happening in the NHL right now. The Red Wings are a dynasty and have been before the hard cap and after the hard cap. The Lakers could be too if they are well managed. Nothing changes for them except that they can't use their FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE anymore. They have to win using their talent assessment acumen, which they will because they are one of the best teams in the league in that department. It's big market teams like the Knicks who will struggle the most because they won't be able to throw money at their problems any more. No dig intended, so please don't take it that way.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:52 PM
People do this all the time. Justify an entire dysfunctional system by talking selectively about one key rivalry or a couple of dynasty teams. It's not what parity or competitive balance is about. Dynasties continue to exist. The thing that changes is that the league behind the dynasties is more competitive. And it is happening in the NHL right now. The Red Wings are a dynasty and have been before the hard cap and after the hard cap. The Lakers could be too if they are well managed. Nothing changes for them except that they can't use their FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE anymore. They have to win using their talent assessment acumen, which they will because they are one of the best teams in the league in that department. It's big market teams like the Knicks who will struggle the most because they won't be able to throw money at their problems any more. No dig intended, so please don't take it that way.
because throwing money at it has led knicks to a lot of success......oh wait:o


cuban has spend a decade of overspending like hell and it has gotten him the grand total of 1 ring for the mavs...

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 02:52 PM
Sam Amick

Don't toy with me please

Thanks for officially turning this into a day of distraction. I just spent the last 5 minutes googling "ric bucher twitter" "marc stein twitter" "stephen a smith twitter"

ink
11-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Exactly. That's enough competitive balance for me. Ink, what are you really looking for? 5 new teams to make the playoffs every season? That's not realistic in any sport.

It's really hard to get you guys to see that it's not about the end of the season. It's about putting on 1230 competitive games during the regular season. It's about hope at the BEGINNING of the season. I am not sure why you guys block this out but I guess it has to do with being defensive about being in a big market. You need to justify the status quo by denying the obvious: that a lot of teams START the season every year with no hope. That ISN'T the case in the NHL or the NFL.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 02:58 PM
It's really hard to get you guys to see that it's not about the end of the season. It's about putting on 1230 competitive games during the regular season. It's about hope at the BEGINNING of the season. I am not sure why you guys block this out but I guess it has to do with being defensive about being in a big market. You need to justify the status quo by denying the obvious: that a lot of teams START the season every year with no hope. That ISN'T the case in the NHL or the NFL.
mmm i disagree.

the teams that are rebuilding and did horribel the season before they have HOPE too.

they hope their lottery rookies pan out and ahve a good season and to be in playoffs the sooner the better. they hope to see progress in their team.

ink
11-25-2011, 02:59 PM
because throwing money at it has led knicks to a lot of success......oh wait:o

Re-read my post. That was my point in bringing up the Knicks. But it's not just about the extremes -- winners and losers. It's about creating competitiveness in the middle. Once the financial advantage is taken away from the big spenders, the teams in the middle who are well managed will have a greater shot at success. And there are a lot more teams in the middle than there are at the top or bottom of the league.

ink
11-25-2011, 03:00 PM
mmm i disagree.

the teams that are rebuilding and did horribel the season before they have HOPE too.

they hope their lottery rookies pan out and ahve a good season and to be in playoffs the sooner the better. they hope to see progress in their team.

Yes, that is hope, but it is too far off. And those teams often find themselves merely developing talent that will be skimmed off by the big spenders a few years down the road. It's pointless for a league to operate that way.

Hellcrooner
11-25-2011, 03:05 PM
Yes, that is hope, but it is too far off. And those teams often find themselves merely developing talent that will be skimmed off by the big spenders a few years down the road. It's pointless for a league to operate that way.

thats what they get for being stupid and stubborn.

If you know you have too much a big fish for your small swiming pool trade him while his price is up because theres no hurry.

cavs could have gotten an allstar, some promising dude and a pair of good picks for lebron if they traded him in 2008, they decided to wait, thats their problem.

and btw team that drafts the player has enough guarantees, 5 years of rookie contract then RFA wich means if someone offers him the max and you MATCH you have him another 5 years.

10 years, thats the whole learning/early prime/ prime of a player.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:09 PM
People do this all the time. Justify an entire dysfunctional system by talking selectively about one key rivalry or a couple of dynasty teams. It's not what parity or competitive balance is about. Dynasties continue to exist. The thing that changes is that the league behind the dynasties is more competitive. And it is happening in the NHL right now. The Red Wings are a dynasty and have been before the hard cap and after the hard cap. The Lakers could be too if they are well managed. Nothing changes for them except that they can't use their FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE anymore. They have to win using their talent assessment acumen, which they will because they are one of the best teams in the league in that department. It's big market teams like the Knicks who will struggle the most because they won't be able to throw money at their problems any more. No dig intended, so please don't take it that way.

None taken. They (unfortunately) are the best example to use in that scenario.


It's really hard to get you guys to see that it's not about the end of the season. It's about putting on 1230 competitive games during the regular season. It's about hope at the BEGINNING of the season. I am not sure why you guys block this out but I guess it has to do with being defensive about being in a big market. You need to justify the status quo by denying the obvious: that a lot of teams START the season every year with no hope. That ISN'T the case in the NHL or the NFL.

Who is hopeless? They are not lost children in the woods. They all have the capabilities to turn it around. I don't buy for a second that the NHL and NFL don't have lost causes at the start of each season either.

First of all, it's unreasonable to compare a league with a 16 game season to a league with an 82 game season. If you shorten the NBA to 16 games, a ton of crazy **** could happen in the standings.

Second of all, the NHL really the model for how sports should be run? How's their profit/attendance/ratings?


mmm i disagree.

the teams that are rebuilding and did horribel the season before they have HOPE too.

they hope their lottery rookies pan out and ahve a good season and to be in playoffs the sooner the better. they hope to see progress in their team.

Again I agree with this crazy bastard. If you stink, you get Blake Griffin. Then you don't stink anymore. It can be that simple. The NBA is a business and I'm fine with some teams having a slight competitive edge because they are willing to spend extra cash. This is a billion dollar industry. No one forces Robert Sarver to avoid the luxury tax like the plague and hold his teams back. He makes that decision.

ink
11-25-2011, 03:21 PM
Who is hopeless? They are not lost children in the woods. They all have the capabilities to turn it around.

Not really because over time the big spenders keep adding and adding to their talent hoard. That's how Cuban finally assembled a team that could win the championship. Given the big paydays, the often big markets, the lucrative endorsement deals that come with them, and the opportunity to play with a stacked roster, the other teams never have a chance at picking up ENOUGH quality talent to build a solid team. That's why you always get this bull **** about players not having enough "help" around them. It's the rationale they use to explain why they couldn't win a ring or the rationale they use to leave. Creating balance means that over a few years a team is able to pull together the pieces it needs to field a competitive team.


I don't buy for a second that the NHL and NFL don't have lost causes at the start of each season either.

Even the Lions are winning this year, so there's something good happening! lol. Sure there are lost causes but those are in the minority compared to the hopeless situation you get with some NBA teams. Even a decent team in the NBA often has little hope.


First of all, it's unreasonable to compare a league with a 16 game season to a league with an 82 game season. If you shorten the NBA to 16 games, a ton of crazy **** could happen in the standings.

Since that's a hypothetical there's no point in discussing it. The number of games they play is a part of the sport, always has been.


Second of all, the NHL really the model for how sports should be run? How's their profit/attendance/ratings?

No league is perfect and hockey's biggest problem is that it is not a North American sport. It is a Canadian-northern US sport. Those markets are almost all very strong (Columbus being the abject failure), and several of them are making phenomenal comebacks this year. What's really amazing about the NHL is that it has been managed well enough that even teams in non-hockey markets like San Jose, LA, Tampa, Florida, Carolina, and Nashville are doing well.

nycericanguy
11-25-2011, 03:22 PM
Sam Amick

Don't toy with me please

they are jerking us off to almost the point of climax and then they stop and walk away.

ewmania
11-25-2011, 03:24 PM
because throwing money at it has led knicks to a lot of success......oh wait:o


cuban has spend a decade of overspending like hell and it has gotten him the grand total of 1 ring for the mavs...

hahahahaha people will ignore this message because its a simple and valid point

knicks are the biggest market in the NBA... our decade was crap and we only have 2 rings to show for it overall

cuban over spends and only has 1 ring and only been to the finals twice

spurs small market team and been to the finals 4 times and won

pistons been to the finals twice this decade and was one of the top teams of the decade

clippers big market team and only been to the playoffs once this decade

don't even let me get started on utah and how much playoff success they've had since the 80s

NYKnicksAllDay
11-25-2011, 03:27 PM
they are jerking us off to almost the point of climax and then they stop and walk away.

lol. they're blue ballin' us.

ink
11-25-2011, 03:27 PM
If you stink, you get Blake Griffin. Then you don't stink anymore. It can be that simple.

Actually that is an example of how the NBA fails. If you stink you get Blake Griffin, but then because the big spenders siphon off the best available talent all the time you can't pick up enough great pieces to build a competitive team around him. Then in a few years you lose him to one of those big spending teams when he is able to leave. That's the NBA failure cycle in a nutshell.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:38 PM
Not really because over time the big spenders keep adding and adding to their talent hoard. That's how Cuban finally assembled a team that could win the championship. Given the big paydays, the often big markets, the lucrative endorsement deals that come with them, and the opportunity to play with a stacked roster, the other teams never have a chance at picking up ENOUGH quality talent to build a solid team. That's why you always get this bull **** about players not having enough "help" around them. It's the rationale they use to explain why they couldn't win a ring or the rationale they use to leave. Creating balance means that over a few years a team is able to pull together the pieces it needs to field a competitive team.


I get your point but you need to make smart moves to get in that position in the first place. You discount the "strawman" argument of all these teams making the playoffs and making the finals (even though they both valid) and have yet to post what you would find a reasonable compromise. So what do you actually want that your so worried the deal won't have? Stricter luxury tax? The mini-MLE? What would make you feel like the league has a competitive balance?

KnicksorBust
11-25-2011, 03:40 PM
Actually that is an example of how the NBA fails. If you stink you get Blake Griffin, but then because the big spenders siphon off the best available talent all the time you can't pick up enough great pieces to build a competitive team around him. Then in a few years you lose him to one of those big spending teams when he is able to leave. That's the NBA failure cycle in a nutshell.

Griffin has DeAndre Jordan and Gordon. He's not going anywhere. Thunder aren't losing Durant. Just because LeBron left a garbage pile behind in Cleveland doesn't mean the FA process is messed up.

ewmania
11-25-2011, 05:05 PM
Actually that is an example of how the NBA fails. If you stink you get Blake Griffin, but then because the big spenders siphon off the best available talent all the time you can't pick up enough great pieces to build a competitive team around him. Then in a few years you lose him to one of those big spending teams when he is able to leave. That's the NBA failure cycle in a nutshell.

lose them?

so thunder lost durant?

didn't a small market team take boozer from cleveland a long time ago

didn't perkins sign a extension to thunder and left a championship contending big market team?

its not as bad as people try to make it out to be

they taking the 2010 FA and just running with it... its not that serious

spurs4#5
11-25-2011, 05:09 PM
i cant remember when did the 99 lockout season begin?

ink
11-25-2011, 05:13 PM
I get your point but you need to make smart moves to get in that position in the first place. You discount the "strawman" argument of all these teams making the playoffs and making the finals (even though they both valid) and have yet to post what you would find a reasonable compromise. So what do you actually want that your so worried the deal won't have? Stricter luxury tax? The mini-MLE? What would make you feel like the league has a competitive balance?

They may be "valid" but the argument is intentionally limiting and literal. The ability to improve is what's at stake. When the best are always siphoned off, your ability to improve is greatly reduced. A hard cap system would completely stop the big spenders from outspending their competition. They would have to make do with the same budget as someone from Sacramento. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's what sport should be about; not about who has the most $$$ and who can hoard, but who can create a champion out of the same budget.

ink
11-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Griffin has DeAndre Jordan and Gordon. He's not going anywhere. Thunder aren't losing Durant. Just because LeBron left a garbage pile behind in Cleveland doesn't mean the FA process is messed up.

Maybe not, but PHX lost Amare, DEN lost Melo, TOR lost Bosh, UTA lost Deron, and undoubtedly if things keep going the way they are, ORL will lose Howard and NO will lose CP3. Bailing on teams has become commonplace and no league can be healthy when that kind of crap is happening.

You guys from big markets think it's all great because you're the beneficiaries of the ****ed up system that was in place. But in the long run it kills the league. It's unsustainable. Teams are not willing to be the feeder system for the big spenders and I don't blame them at all.

btw, Durant not leaving has more to do with his character than anything else. We'll see how he handles the test of character he's about to face when he spends the next few years watching the Lakers or Knicks gobble up the MLE player he needs to win a championship. If he doesn't balk, he will be showing class, like Stockton and Miller did before him. If he bolts, he will prove to be just like Lebron. And the big point will be that the system is what failed Durant and the Thunder. They do not have the resources to compete with the league's biggest spenders.

An even better example though would be what will happen to the Grizzlies, who have a very good team now. They also have an owner who can't/won't spend into the LT. In that way they may stall just like the Suns did before them. You can't really blame owners when they don't want to flush money down the drain just like Cuban did for years until he won something. The model is brutally inefficient and badly needs reworking. You shouldn't have to waste so much capital to compete. That's the point of capping spending: to restore sanity to the spending levels and to level the playing field while you're at it.

LA_Raiders
11-25-2011, 05:43 PM
I hope we can get some NBA on early January.

iggypop123
11-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Maybe not, but PHX lost Amare, DEN lost Melo, TOR lost Bosh, UTA lost Deron, and undoubtedly if things keep going the way they are, ORL will lose Howard and NO will lose CP3. Bailing on teams has become commonplace and no league can be healthy when that kind of crap is happening.

You guys from big markets think it's all great because you're the beneficiaries of the ****ed up system that was in place. But in the long run it kills the league. It's unsustainable. Teams are not willing to be the feeder system for the big spenders and I don't blame them at all.

btw, Durant not leaving has more to do with his character than anything else. We'll see how he handles the test of character he's about to face when he spends the next few years watching the Lakers or Knicks gobble up the MLE player he needs to win a championship. If he doesn't balk, he will be showing class, like Stockton and Miller did before him. If he bolts, he will prove to be just like Lebron. And the big point will be that the system is what failed Durant and the Thunder. They do not have the resources to compete with the league's biggest spenders.

An even better example though would be what will happen to the Grizzlies, who have a very good team now. They also have an owner who can't/won't spend into the LT. In that way they may stall just like the Suns did before them. You can't really blame owners when they don't want to flush money down the drain just like Cuban did for years until he won something. The model is brutally inefficient and badly needs reworking. You shouldn't have to waste so much capital to compete. That's the point of capping spending: to restore sanity to the spending levels and to level the playing field while you're at it.

phoenix let him leave. they offerd him a pretty bad deal they didnt even want to guarantee some money, williams was traded, he didnt even request it. this lockout i agree is all about power about the 2010 player exodus. the millionaires are not supposed to control the billionaires. they want it back to normal. if a guy is in a crap squad he should not be able to have freedom. its as simple as that for the owners. thats why you hear all of this hyperbole slavery comments.

Bramaca
11-25-2011, 06:04 PM
Maybe not, but PHX lost Amare, DEN lost Melo, TOR lost Bosh, UTA lost Deron, and undoubtedly if things keep going the way they are, ORL will lose Howard and NO will lose CP3. Bailing on teams has become commonplace and no league can be healthy when that kind of crap is happening.

You guys from big markets think it's all great because you're the beneficiaries of the ****ed up system that was in place. But in the long run it kills the league. It's unsustainable. Teams are not willing to be the feeder system for the big spenders and I don't blame them at all.

btw, Durant not leaving has more to do with his character than anything else. We'll see how he handles the test of character he's about to face when he spends the next few years watching the Lakers or Knicks gobble up the MLE player he needs to win a championship. If he doesn't balk, he will be showing class, like Stockton and Miller did before him. If he bolts, he will prove to be just like Lebron. And the big point will be that the system is what failed Durant and the Thunder. They do not have the resources to compete with the league's biggest spenders.

An even better example though would be what will happen to the Grizzlies, who have a very good team now. They also have an owner who can't/won't spend into the LT. In that way they may stall just like the Suns did before them. You can't really blame owners when they don't want to flush money down the drain just like Cuban did for years until he won something. The model is brutally inefficient and badly needs reworking. You shouldn't have to waste so much capital to compete. That's the point of capping spending: to restore sanity to the spending levels and to level the playing field while you're at it.

Good post, a lot of people don't get this though.

ewmania
11-25-2011, 06:11 PM
phoenix let him leave. they offerd him a pretty bad deal they didnt even want to guarantee some money, williams was traded, he didnt even request it. this lockout i agree is all about power about the 2010 player exodus. the millionaires are not supposed to control the billionaires. they want it back to normal. if a guy is in a crap squad he should not be able to have freedom. its as simple as that for the owners. thats why you hear all of this hyperbole slavery comments.

good post... but people will ignore this

ink
11-25-2011, 11:50 PM
good post... but people will ignore this

Why would we? The point gets made all the time but it doesn't change anything. The system makes it impossible for teams to retain talent at times so there's sometimes no point in trying.


phoenix let him leave. they offerd him a pretty bad deal they didnt even want to guarantee some money, williams was traded, he didnt even request it. this lockout i agree is all about power about the 2010 player exodus. the millionaires are not supposed to control the billionaires. they want it back to normal. if a guy is in a crap squad he should not be able to have freedom. its as simple as that for the owners. thats why you hear all of this hyperbole slavery comments.

There's no point in being simplistic about this and saying that "letting them walk" or trading them away proves they were either incompetent or blew their chance. No it doesn't at all.

In both cases it was really clear that the teams had to read the league situation and do some damage control. Again, it's the system that forced their hand. In fact, your point re-emphasizes the need for change to that dysfunctional system.

Yes, I agree that this lockout is all about power after the (pathetic) 2010 player exodus. As a fan I don't ever want to witness anything like that again. That doesn't mean that the players should have no freedom; it means that I never want to see the players DICTATE moves, essentially running the league. There is no way I want the guys whose skill set are physical doing the work that requires mental, organizational, and business skill.

Sactown
11-26-2011, 12:20 AM
I think the first problem is the league isn't profitable, teams can't continue to spend when they continue to lose money

The 2nd thing is, the owners don't want to make it competitive at the end of the season, because let's face it, good gms beat out bad Gm's it's as simple as that, but the key is to make it competitive during the off season, to make it so big market teams can't sign players for the MLE when they're way above the cap and to make the flex cap harder, to give small market teams a better chance at resigning their stars. I think that's what they're trying to do

mets77
11-26-2011, 12:37 AM
Hope something gets done, but I feel like I've heard this same story a million times already.

jimbobjarree
11-26-2011, 01:05 AM
I get your point but you need to make smart moves to get in that position in the first place. You discount the "strawman" argument of all these teams making the playoffs and making the finals (even though they both valid) and have yet to post what you would find a reasonable compromise. So what do you actually want that your so worried the deal won't have? Stricter luxury tax? The mini-MLE? What would make you feel like the league has a competitive balance?

I think the Jazz, although they've been pretty quiet during the lockout (which I've liked) are a good example as to why the old bargaining agreement was so bad. Yes we are a small market team, but we've always been competitive. Under the last CBA however, to sustain this and to keep the product on the court that the fans expect the price has just kept going up and up. Well over the luxury the last few seasons, yet there were teams who had higher payrolls who kept beating us, and thus we spent and came no where close to a ring. Its pretty much fact that if that CBA was kept in place, the Jazz would have had to relocate to remain profitable (hence the rumors that the Millers want to sell).

Yes you need to make smart decisions, which we have to get into the position we were in, but sometimes money forces your hand (Wes Matthews, Carlos Boozer, Kyle Korver, Brewer traded to save money, Maynor traded to save money, not being able to use our MLE in forever). As a fan its furstrating. I know its a free agency, but if the new CBA puts us in a position to at least be able to attempt to keep the players we need, and keep us in Utah, then I'm happy to wait as long as it takes.

I agree with you though, not all small market teams should be clumped together, some are run by complete retards that do make terrible moves, and its a shame that the new CBA will help them.