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View Full Version : Redraft voting (NYK forum) 1) Albany vs 4) Middletown



NYKalltheway
11-22-2011, 04:23 PM
Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the playoff voting for the PSD Knicks Forum NBA Redraft. You will notice that all teams are representing the state of New York and that they are fictional.
Please take the time to review both teams, look at the depth chart and read the write ups to formalize your own opinion on which team would win a 7 game series.
Thank you for voting and enjoy the match ups.

Clubhouses link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=662405)

Albany has home court advantage

Albany:


Depth Chart
C- Nene
PF- Ibaka
SF- Battier
SG- Martin
PG- Paul

6th- Roy
PG- Lawson
SG- Ronnie Brewer
PF/SF- Ty Thomas
PF/SF- Hedo Turkoglu
PF- Anderson
C- Asik

A quick write up for our team. We were the top ranked team in our conference, and with good reason. Cheif among them Being Chris Paul aka Mr Everything. There is no more well rounded player running a team today. As a PG he has demonstrated that he can boost the efficeincy of everyone he plays with. And that is the key to our team. Efficiency. Paul has never had the best supporting case, but he has taken advantage of the strengths of his team mates.
On offense, if you chose to leave him one on one no one on Middletown can stop Paul. If you collapse Paul has good big men to lob it up to and work the pick and roll with. Ibaka can also step out to provide spacing for a big man. This is often over looked as spacing is usually only thought of as a perimeter shooters role. For the perimeter we have a host of excelent shooters, at multiple positions. many don't realize how deadly accurate Kevin Martin is. If the defense collapses on Paul martin will have wide open attempts, something he has been great at all his career.
On defense Martin is the weak link of the team, however he is covered by good defenders on the perimeter. Battier's defense has also been held in high regaurd. While we are not going to come out and call him the Kobe stopper he can help limit him and drive him downlow where we good help defenders. We can go with several great defensive line ups. And in the playoffs that matters.
So we expect to win thanks to defense and efficiency.

Middletown:


Starters

PG: Andre Miller
SG: Kobe Bryant
SF: Danny Granger
PF: Carlos Boozer
C: Andrew Bogut

Bench

6th: Stephen Jackson
7th: DeAndre Jordan
8th: J.J Barea
9th: Marcus Thornton
10th: J.J Hickson
11th: Beno Udrih
12th:Shawn Williams

Did not send a write up

PatsSoxKnicks
11-22-2011, 04:53 PM
Middletown has no one who can guard CP3, who literally has no weaknesses (the only such player in the NBA)- he is clutch, he can shoot the 3, he has a high % midrange game, he can penetrate, he can dish, he can rebound, he can play excellent defense, he can finish at the rim. And we'll slow down Kobe by putting Battier and Ronnie Brewer (who was 1 of the best defenders last year). We also have excellent spacing- Paul, Martin, Lawson, Hedo, and Anderson are all excellent 3 point shooters. So if Middletown tries collapsing on Paul, he can kick it out to a number of different 3 point shooters. We also have a number of good defenders- Nene, Ibaka, Battier, Paul, Ty Thomas, Ronnie Brewer and Asik.

Meanwhile, Middletown has Boozer, who doesn't play a lick of defense and at an important position defensively. Bogut is always injured. Andre Miller is a good role player but doesn't have a hope of guarding CP3. Kobe is not the same player he used to be.

Also, we have homefield advantage.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-22-2011, 05:01 PM
Wow, down 4-0. Kind of ridiculous. Middletown didn't even send in a write-up.

knicks=love
11-22-2011, 05:48 PM
Wow, down 4-0. Kind of ridiculous. Middletown didn't even send in a write-up.

which is why they don't get my vote.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-22-2011, 06:06 PM
Actually, something we need to point out is that we'd put Martin on Andre Miller and have CP3 guard Kobe and Battier on Granger. When Martin comes out, we'd bring in Ronnie Brewer to guard Kobe.

mightybosstone
11-22-2011, 06:11 PM
Actually, something we need to point out is that we'd put Martin on Andre Miller and have CP3 guard Kobe and Battier on Granger. When Martin comes out, we'd bring in Ronnie Brewer to guard Kobe.

Hmm... as bad of a defender as Martin is and as good as CP3 is, I'm still not sure I like that move. Paul will give up a good 6-7 inches to Kobe and he'll be exhausted from anchoring both ends of the floor. Martin will also get killed by Miller driving past him all game. If I were you, I'd probably stick with what you've got and just switch Battier on whoever is the hotter player between Kobe and Granger.

I voted for you, but mainly because the other team didn't send in a writeup. I think the other team has more overall talent, more offensive weapons and matches up extremely well with you.

KnicksorBust
11-22-2011, 06:54 PM
Middletown has no one who can guard CP3, who literally has no weaknesses (the only such player in the NBA)- he is clutch, he can shoot the 3, he has a high % midrange game, he can penetrate, he can dish, he can rebound, he can play excellent defense, he can finish at the rim. And we'll slow down Kobe by putting Battier and Ronnie Brewer (who was 1 of the best defenders last year). We also have excellent spacing- Paul, Martin, Lawson, Hedo, and Anderson are all excellent 3 point shooters. So if Middletown tries collapsing on Paul, he can kick it out to a number of different 3 point shooters. We also have a number of good defenders- Nene, Ibaka, Battier, Paul, Ty Thomas, Ronnie Brewer and Asik.

Meanwhile, Middletown has Boozer, who doesn't play a lick of defense and at an important position defensively. Bogut is always injured. Andre Miller is a good role player but doesn't have a hope of guarding CP3. Kobe is not the same player he used to be.

Also, we have homefield advantage.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=millean02&p2=paulch01

Paul has bombed out numerous times vs. Andre both early in his career and recently. Career averages vs. Miller of 13ppg on 40% from the field. Good 3pt and Ft numbers but his overall TS% would still be terrible. And Middletown can throw Kobe on him for stretches of the game like LA did in last year's playoffs. Meanwhile Kobe destroys Martin and would abuse CP3 in the post all game if you wasted Paul on him.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-23-2011, 01:49 AM
Are you sure about that?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=millean02&p2=paulch01

Paul has bombed out numerous times vs. Andre both early in his career and recently. Career averages vs. Miller of 13ppg on 40% from the field. Good 3pt and Ft numbers but his overall TS% would still be terrible. And Middletown can throw Kobe on him for stretches of the game like LA did in last year's playoffs. Meanwhile Kobe destroys Martin and would abuse CP3 in the post all game if you wasted Paul on him.

Eh, small sample size for recently- it also includes the brief stretch where CP3 struggled this year due to injury if I remember correctly. And I don't think that is the same as playing 7 consecutive games (or 4 or 5 or however long the series goes) against the same player.

Also, if we're going to bring up that, then:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bogutan01&p2=hilarne01

Bogut's numbers vs. Nene are awful. And Nene has still shot the ball at nearly 60% despite Bogut being a good defender.

And throwing Kobe on CP3 last year didn't help the Lakers that much as CP3 was in beast mode for basically the whole series. Don't forget, this guy (CP3) took a vastly inferior talented team and took the Lakers to 6 games. I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating CP3's abilities.

The Middletown team is inferior talent wise to the Lakers last year and the team CP3 has is easily superior to the Hornets talent wise. Add it up, and there's a good reason to believe that CP3 with much better players around him, could beat Kobe and Middletown. Honestly, it seems as if people are remembering 09-10 version of Kobe, whereas last year's version actually had a below average WS/48 in the playoffs, a pretty subpar ORtg/TS%, etc. He was not that great in the playoffs last year an CP3 was just a monster.


Hmm... as bad of a defender as Martin is and as good as CP3 is, I'm still not sure I like that move. Paul will give up a good 6-7 inches to Kobe and he'll be exhausted from anchoring both ends of the floor. Martin will also get killed by Miller driving past him all game. If I were you, I'd probably stick with what you've got and just switch Battier on whoever is the hotter player between Kobe and Granger.

I voted for you, but mainly because the other team didn't send in a writeup. I think the other team has more overall talent, more offensive weapons and matches up extremely well with you.

Yeah, we could do that too. Don't forget, we also have Ronnie Brewer off the bench and Ronnie was one of the better defenders in the NBA last year.

Also, something you guys are discounting: CP3 may be perhaps the most clutch player in the NBA, while Kobe, over time has been closer to average.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

CP3 is 2nd behind Melo in last possession situations. Also:
http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2010/03/18/could-chris-pauls-clutch-play-account-for-the-teams-disparity-in-wins-and-wins-produced/

While I don't think much of the Wins Produced stat (it is really garbage), I'm sure the point would be the same if you were to look at any other stat. But how about this:


From 05-06 until 63 games into this season, the Hornets have gone 70-35 in games decided by five points or less. The average team wins 50% of their games decided by that margin. Using that rationale, the Bees have won 17.5 more games than they were expected to since Chris Paul was drafted.

Close games are usually toss ups (better teams win in blowouts) and as long as we're close, history has proven that with CP3 on our team, we stand an excellent shot at coming away with the victory. And as I pointed out, CP3 has much better talent around him on this team. He has a shooter/scorer in Martin, a number of good bench scorers, a bunch of guys that can space the floor and 3 very good defenders up front.

LakersIn5
11-23-2011, 10:16 AM
when i saw albany's lineup i was like "damn so thats why they are ranked no.1" but when i saw middletowns lineup i was like "okay they get my vote". starting 5 is an absolute beast plus that great bench. both team actually does but i just think that middletown is better

KnicksorBust
11-23-2011, 07:29 PM
Eh, small sample size for recently- it also includes the brief stretch where CP3 struggled this year due to injury if I remember correctly. And I don't think that is the same as playing 7 consecutive games (or 4 or 5 or however long the series goes) against the same player.

Also, if we're going to bring up that, then:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bogutan01&p2=hilarne01

Bogut's numbers vs. Nene are awful. And Nene has still shot the ball at nearly 60% despite Bogut being a good defender.

And throwing Kobe on CP3 last year didn't help the Lakers that much as CP3 was in beast mode for basically the whole series. Don't forget, this guy (CP3) took a vastly inferior talented team and took the Lakers to 6 games. I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating CP3's abilities.

The Middletown team is inferior talent wise to the Lakers last year and the team CP3 has is easily superior to the Hornets talent wise. Add it up, and there's a good reason to believe that CP3 with much better players around him, could beat Kobe and Middletown. Honestly, it seems as if people are remembering 09-10 version of Kobe, whereas last year's version actually had a below average WS/48 in the playoffs, a pretty subpar ORtg/TS%, etc. He was not that great in the playoffs last year an CP3 was just a monster..

The problem with your example of Nene-Bogut is 3 fold:

1. Bogut is nowhere near as important to his offense as Paul is to your offense.
2. Paul and Miller is a much larger sample size. Double the games.
3. Neither Bogut nor Nene even averaged 30mpg in their matchups.

Paul was in "beast mode" when Kobe was a help defender but he cooled off in a big way after the switch:

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=6406273

The hornets were producing 1.19 points per possesion with Fisher or others on Paul and then produced a pitiful 0.85 points per possesion with Kobe on him. He averaged only 15ppg on less than 40% FG the last two games. Throw in the fact that Miller has been wildly successful and your taunts about Paul's unstoppability seem more and more exaggerated vs. this team.



Yeah, we could do that too. Don't forget, we also have Ronnie Brewer off the bench and Ronnie was one of the better defenders in the NBA last year.

Also, something you guys are discounting: CP3 may be perhaps the most clutch player in the NBA, while Kobe, over time has been closer to average.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

CP3 is 2nd behind Melo in last possession situations. Also:
http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2010/03/18/could-chris-pauls-clutch-play-account-for-the-teams-disparity-in-wins-and-wins-produced/

While I don't think much of the Wins Produced stat (it is really garbage), I'm sure the point would be the same if you were to look at any other stat. But how about this:
.



Close games are usually toss ups (better teams win in blowouts) and as long as we're close, history has proven that with CP3 on our team, we stand an excellent shot at coming away with the victory. And as I pointed out, CP3 has much better talent around him on this team. He has a shooter/scorer in Martin, a number of good bench scorers, a bunch of guys that can space the floor and 3 very good defenders up front.

In a close game the team with the best player usually wins out and your worst defender is matched up on his best player. I don't doubt for a second that Kobe being guarded by Paul/Martin is the bigger advantage advantage in this series.

Sportfan
11-23-2011, 09:25 PM
wtf is this? Albany is 5

jrice9
11-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Middleton because they have the better big men, bench and Martin is going to cancle out whatever great offense he provides by letting Kobe/Granger murder him. Once he's out of the game, Paul's supporting cast lacks a real #2 option for this league.

Middleton has good defenders at the positions needed (Kobe on Martin, Bogut on Nene and even Andre Miller is crafty for CP3).

PatsSoxKnicks
11-24-2011, 03:10 AM
The problem with your example of Nene-Bogut is 3 fold:

1. Bogut is nowhere near as important to his offense as Paul is to your offense.
2. Paul and Miller is a much larger sample size. Double the games.
3. Neither Bogut nor Nene even averaged 30mpg in their matchups.

Paul was in "beast mode" when Kobe was a help defender but he cooled off in a big way after the switch:

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=6406273

The hornets were producing 1.19 points per possesion with Fisher or others on Paul and then produced a pitiful 0.85 points per possesion with Kobe on him. He averaged only 15ppg on less than 40% FG the last two games. Throw in the fact that Miller has been wildly successful and your taunts about Paul's unstoppability seem more and more exaggerated vs. this team.

As I said in my original post though, I don't put much stock into random games played over multiple years so my Nene-Bogut example wasn't trying to prove any point (which is why I said, for what its worth). Again, playing 20 games or whatever over 5 years is NOT the same as playing 5 or 6 consecutive games over a playoff series. Players get in slumps/streaks and over the course of a playoff series, adjustments are made, etc. Maybe Miller starts out doing a good job on CP3 but CP3 starts to see a particular offensive strategy that works well and starts to use it in game 3 or 4.

Also, I would argue 15 games is not much of a sample size, especially considering it's over a number of years. As I also pointed out, Miller was guarding an injured CP3 for 2 of the matchups this year (if I remember correctly, which I think I do).

And of course when Kobe guarded Paul his numbers dipped. Kobe's a good defender, however you aren't willing to consider the circumstances? That Hornets team had garbage talent on it while the Lakers were probably one of the most talented teams in the league. Naturally CP3 was going to wear down by the end of the series. Everyone and their mother could have told you that. Very rarely does 1 player beat a team with much superior talent. But for comparsion's sake and how this relates to this game:

Lakers vs. Middletown
Bogut vs. Bynum- Bynum, when healthy is better
Pau vs. Boozer- Pau is by far the better player
Odom/Artest vs. Granger- Odom is better than Granger, Granger better than Artest
Kobe = Kobe
Miller vs. Fisher- Miller has the edge

The Lakers team last year was definitely more talented than Middletown is, especially in the front court.

And I shouldn't have to explain that our Albany team is better than the Hornets team from last year:
Martin is better than Bennelli
Battier is a better shooter than Ariza, though Ariza is better at creating his shot, probably =
Ibaka is better than Landry
Nene is better than Okafor

The Lakers (more talented than Middletown) were taken to 6 games by the (less talented than Albany) Hornets.

Also, our front court is better (Boozer is just atrocious on defense). Does anyone really expect Bogut to stay healthy? And if so, why aren't people willing to look at Roy on our bench? If you're going to assume Bogut is healthy, then why aren't we assuming Roy is healthy?



In a close game the team with the best player usually wins out and your worst defender is matched up on his best player. I don't doubt for a second that Kobe being guarded by Paul/Martin is the bigger advantage advantage in this series.

The best player is CP3, not Kobe. Fact. As for Martin, depending on how bad Kobe is torching him, we could always bring in either Ronnie Brewer or Roy to start at the 2. Heck, having Roy for the last couple minutes along side Paul might make more sense anyways.

I think everyone is overlooking our bench and its versatility. We have a very good defender in Ronnie Brewer, a very good scorer in Roy, a bunch of good shooters and Asik is a pretty good defender himself too. If Martin is getting absolutely abused, we could always substitute in Roy or Brewer.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-24-2011, 03:16 AM
Middleton because they have the better big men, bench and Martin is going to cancle out whatever great offense he provides by letting Kobe/Granger murder him. Once he's out of the game, Paul's supporting cast lacks a real #2 option for this league.

Middleton has good defenders at the positions needed (Kobe on Martin, Bogut on Nene and even Andre Miller is crafty for CP3).

How does Middletown have better big men? As I mentioned earlier, Bogut is injury prone and was not really healthy for most of this year. But if you're going to consider the Bogut from 2 years ago, why aren't we considering a healthy Roy? Healthy Roy is probably the 3rd best player in this series behind CP3 and Kobe. And Boozer is atrocious on defense. I'd argue that Ibaka's offense, though limited, is better than Boozer's defense. And Boozer's offense is about the same as Ibaka's defense.

Again, I'll ask, why are people willing to consider a healthy Bogut but not a healthy Roy. If you're going to look at Roy in his injured state, then the same should be done for Bogut- who was not that good of a player this year due to the injuries. Look at his final #'s.

knicks_champ
11-24-2011, 03:34 AM
Been busy with some personal problems. Didn't have time to send in the write up. I'll just let my team speak for itself I guess. *Kanye Shrug.

NYKalltheway
11-24-2011, 10:01 PM
we need more than 29 votes :)

PatsSoxKnicks
11-25-2011, 11:25 PM
Bump

RevisIsland
11-26-2011, 03:03 AM
I give middletown a SLIGHT (and I can't emphasize that enough) edge, the teams are very even, I just give Kobe the slight crunch time edge over CP3.

Birdmannn
11-26-2011, 03:35 AM
I give middletown a SLIGHT (and I can't emphasize that enough) edge, the teams are very even, I just give Kobe the slight crunch time edge over CP3.

My thoughts exactly.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-26-2011, 03:56 AM
I give middletown a SLIGHT (and I can't emphasize that enough) edge, the teams are very even, I just give Kobe the slight crunch time edge over CP3.

That's plain false (the Kobe over CP3 in clutch) and I can give you all sorts of evidence to prove my point but at this point, there's really no point.

Actually, go back 1 page and I had a couple articles that prove my point that CP3 is quite easily superior to Kobe in the clutch. Right now, it's no contest between them.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Perhaps you'll be enlightened :D.

BTW, didn't you have us as the #1 seed in the conference? So why the sudden switch? Is someone afraid to face us down the line? ;)

knicks_champ
11-26-2011, 08:52 PM
Bump