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Anilyzer
11-18-2011, 06:14 PM
New article by Kurt Helin on MSNBC.com

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/18/nba-owners-going-to-sit-back-wait-out-players/related/

First two thirds of the article are fine. Then this:


"The owners are done talking, the hardliners have won and they are looking to break the union."

But, the players have already voted to decertify the union, and have also formally disavowed the union, as I understand it. As of a few days ago, the union is officially not representing the players.

So, why are we talking about the owners "breaking the union"? This is ridiculous.

A union is an organization of employees that fights for employee rights and salaries. It is NOT some kind of control mechanism for the "owners" of a particular industry to collectively limit compensation, price-fix wages and control worker movement.

The fact that the "owners" will ONLY allow the players to have a season if they have a "union", and if that "union" agrees to whatever collective terms the owners want, means that they are transparently in violation of many fairly simple anti-trust laws and regulations.

That the media reports that "the owners are trying to wait it out and break the union" seems to me to be intentionally incorrect, framing the situation as a union (labor) holding out for more compensation against the owners, when actually that couldn't be farther from the truth.

It is the "owners" who have locked out the players! And it is the owners who won't allow the basketball industry to exist at all unless they can collectively control all compensation and player movement. Get it right!

Unless the players have a union, and unless that union agrees to whatever terms the owners want, there won't be a season. The only tragedy for the players is that they didn't start these legal challenges until now.

From what I understand, the players will win these court cases hands down, but the NBA is determined to drag it through a process of appeals that could take years, just to stall.

Isn't it amazing, that after all these years, all the shady refereeing and questionable decisions, that it is David Stern who ends up as the one who destroys pro basketball in America?

Let me tell you, after the Joe Paterno (LoL "Joe Pa") **** stained mess, I have almost zero respect for authority figures who show even the slightest sign of being corrupt or untrustworthy. How many more "Joe Pa's" are there out there, pretending to be leaders of morality? If David Stern allows NBA basketball to be destroyed, or even for this season to be lost, then his "career" as head of the NBA is a complete failure and joke.

mdm692
11-18-2011, 06:22 PM
I think what he means is the owners are done talking and trying to get a deal done instead they will waot for players to miss more paychecks so they can go back to the union and accept and even crappier deal which is what will happen. As of today the owners met to discuss their next move which included looking over the lawsuit which is basically bs considering the players decertified and almost every judge will side with owners(they can buy their way).

bholly
11-18-2011, 06:43 PM
FWIW, you're reporting it wrong too. They didn't decertify, they filed a disclaimer of interest. Same effect in the end, but very different right now (no 45 day waiting period for a second vote, for starters).

Regardless, I think they're using 'union' to refer to the players collectively, not the legal entity that has been dissolved - which I agree is confusing. By 'break the union' they don't mean force them to decertify, they mean break down the players' resolve so that they (the hardliners) can end up with the deal they want.
From everything I've read, just because the union dissolved doesn't mean there can't be a deal - if the owners offered something great to Billy Hunter (or the union attorneys, or whoever is now the point man for the players), they could re-unionize and sign it without too much trouble.

So yeah, the language can be misleading, but I don't think the overall thing is entirely wrong.

Anilyzer
11-18-2011, 07:17 PM
FWIW, you're reporting it wrong too. They didn't decertify, they filed a disclaimer of interest. Same effect in the end, but very different right now (no 45 day waiting period for a second vote, for starters).

Regardless, I think they're using 'union' to refer to the players collectively, not the legal entity that has been dissolved - which I agree is confusing. By 'break the union' they don't mean force them to decertify, they mean break down the players' resolve so that they (the hardliners) can end up with the deal they want.
From everything I've read, just because the union dissolved doesn't mean there can't be a deal - if the owners offered something great to Billy Hunter (or the union attorneys, or whoever is now the point man for the players), they could re-unionize and sign it without too much trouble.

So yeah, the language can be misleading, but I don't think the overall thing is entirely wrong.

Well they did, actually, vote to decertify. From what I understand it passed unanimously. They also filed the disclaimer of interest as you said, and at that point, when it was accepted by the union, the union effectively ceased to exist.

But the main irony here is that the "union" is something that the "owners" are using to price-fix salaries, collude and control player/worker movement. For instance, the players are in a "union", but if they leave the union, OR if the union doesn't accept the unilateral terms proposed by ownership/management, then all the players/workers are effectively FIRED on the spot. That in itself is transparently illegal.

So yeah, if a joe schmoe like me can see that, then MSNBC's top NBA reporter shouldn't be posting big, flashy, national news articles that scream "the owners are trying to bust the union!"

gwrighter
11-19-2011, 07:33 PM
The union should have passed along the CBA agreements to all the players and held a vote among the people they represent.

still a fan
11-19-2011, 07:50 PM
They did not vote to decertify there was no need to when they filed the disclaimer of interest, which by the way doesn't need all the players vote, go figure??

To decertify all players must vote, and no that never happened.

Its not just the media passing along misinformed information, it is fans who don't understand all the in's and outs who just keep passing along more and more false information and having fans actually believe what they say.

Sorry to be such a hard nose about it, but that is what is exactly whats happening.


In my opinion, fans including me are the dumb ones, we just stand by and let the owners and the players manipulate us.

We pay the owners who in turn pay the players, we should unite and give them either sign by such a date or we don't show up, we don't pay for any NBA gear, jersey's , t-shirts, etc....

We should control this lockout, but we stand by and simply wait, and now the season appears lost because we fans are just pawns moved from place to place and do whatever the owners and players decide on.

To me its all BS, the two sides should have figured out a way to close the gap, come to terms and play the game we support and pay for.

We the fans failed, not the players, not the owners and not the media.

Me and everyone else just talk about what everyone leads us to believe, we should for once and for all say enough is enough and make demands ourselves.

Maybe this is the site to it, maybe its not, but till someone tries you never know.

ink
11-19-2011, 09:13 PM
The union should have passed along the CBA agreements to all the players and held a vote among the people they represent.

Exactly. They should have at least used the democratic mechanism their union actually gives them and voted.

Regarding the media and this article, it's simple. The players turned down this offer and then turned this into a legal case out of protest. All the article is saying is the truth: the owners are apparently not going to go to the players, they are going to wait out the players. In the meantime they will undoubtedly waste a lot of time and money on this bogus anti-trust case. But they've been completely clear about the fact that they've nickeled and dimed this deal to death and they're not going to do that anymore.

Where's the beef? I don't see one.

What, are the owners supposed to keep proposing deal after deal and get each one turned down? At what point do you say fine, have your anti-trust case, we'll talk to you when you're ready.

NBA_Starter
11-19-2011, 09:14 PM
Crap

ink
11-19-2011, 09:17 PM
They did not vote to decertify there was no need to when they filed the disclaimer of interest, which by the way doesn't need all the players vote, go figure??

To decertify all players must vote, and no that never happened.

Its not just the media passing along misinformed information, it is fans who don't understand all the in's and outs who just keep passing along more and more false information and having fans actually believe what they say.

Sorry to be such a hard nose about it, but that is what is exactly whats happening.


In my opinion, fans including me are the dumb ones, we just stand by and let the owners and the players manipulate us.

We pay the owners who in turn pay the players, we should unite and give them either sign by such a date or we don't show up, we don't pay for any NBA gear, jersey's , t-shirts, etc....

We should control this lockout, but we stand by and simply wait, and now the season appears lost because we fans are just pawns moved from place to place and do whatever the owners and players decide on.

To me its all BS, the two sides should have figured out a way to close the gap, come to terms and play the game we support and pay for.

We the fans failed, not the players, not the owners and not the media.

Me and everyone else just talk about what everyone leads us to believe, we should for once and for all say enough is enough and make demands ourselves.

Maybe this is the site to it, maybe its not, but till someone tries you never know.

Great post. I wish there was an effective way to tell them both that they've screwed themselves by alienating their fan base to such a degree.

The sad thing is that these things never work and protests never last. Fans are just dying to line up and worship again. Sad thing is they don't worship the game; they worship the manufactured stars. THAT is what is most appalling about fan behaviour.

Hawkeye15
11-19-2011, 09:19 PM
Exactly. They should have at least used the democratic mechanism their union actually gives them and voted.

Regarding the media and this article, it's simple. The players turned down this offer and then turned this into a legal case out of protest. All the article is saying is the truth: the owners are apparently not going to go to the players, they are going to wait out the players. In the meantime they will undoubtedly waste a lot of time and money on this bogus anti-trust case. But they've been completely clear about the fact that they've nickeled and dimed this deal to death and they're not going to do that anymore.

Where's the beef? I don't see one.

What, are the owners supposed to keep proposing deal after deal and getting each one turned down? At what point do you say fine, have your anti-trust case, we'll talk to you when you're ready.


exactly. The owners also know that historically speaking, the players are the ones that stand to lose the most now. So why bother? When the players are done standing up to them, and realize there isn't anywhere they can make the insane money they make in the NBA, they can initiate talks.

NBA_Starter
11-19-2011, 09:21 PM
The players will give in eventually.

still a fan
11-19-2011, 09:26 PM
If the players do not come to terms what will happen is those who are foreigners will go back (some have already) to their respective countries and play there, the stars will get offers which they are already, and even some mid tier players are getting offers.

When those not lucky enough to get asked to play in Europe, they will then say alright if I don't think of ME, the others obviously aren't who else will?

You will then see Players ban together who were left behind and we will in fact see basketball.

I remember the NFL strike years back and LT crossing with some other stars, it was great, and quickly guess what players gave in.

all it takes is one big Icon to cross, thats all it takes...........

Who has the balls, thats the millions of dollars question.

SteBO
11-19-2011, 09:27 PM
I've honestly reached the point where I just don't care anymore. Wake me up when they decide they want to have a season....

iggypop123
11-20-2011, 12:37 AM
billionares will always beat the millionares. this is about power. in the nba last year especially the millionares controlled the billionares. lebron controlled the nba, melo did what he wanted. this is why you see those slave hyperbole rhetoric. these guys are supposed to know their roles this lockout is all about that.
think of it this way its a staring match underwater. the nba has a months worth of oxygen, the players 2 weeks.

Dade County
11-20-2011, 12:50 AM
billionares will always beat the millionares. this is about power. in the nba last year especially the millionares controlled the billionares. lebron controlled the nba, melo did what he wanted. this is why you see those slave hyperbole rhetoric. these guys are supposed to know their roles this lockout is all about that.
think of it this way its a staring match underwater. the nba has a months worth of oxygen, the players 2 weeks.


Lbj was a free agent.... I think you mean Melo (Oh NO, hear it comes, I said Melo "NY Fans" and just pointed out that Lbj was a free agent... the world/psd is going to come crashing down on me) :hide:



These players are taking in personal, they should see it as, it's just business!
Who ever has the most money wins the game ( OWNERS )

D1JM
11-20-2011, 01:03 AM
I've honestly reached the point where I just don't care anymore. Wake me up when they decide they want to have a season....

That's exactly how I feel.

ClippersE.G
11-20-2011, 02:11 AM
**** It.

gwrighter
11-20-2011, 03:00 AM
When the star players collude while still under contract & decide to join forces thats OKAY. But when the owners band together because of losses the players run to litigate them for antitrust violations? Excuse me but texting your star player friends about teaming up is violating antitrust legislation AS WELL. These players want to be payed like owners but don't want to be held up to the same standards? These guys simply have no clue. They legitimately don't understand, & I pity them for making themselves look like idiots in the public eye. I never use it but these players deserve one: :facepalm:

Dade County
11-20-2011, 03:19 AM
When the star players collude while still under contract & decide to join forces thats OKAY. But when the owners band together because of losses the players run to litigate them for antitrust violations? Excuse me but texting your star player friends about teaming up is violating antitrust legislation AS WELL. These players want to be payed like owners but don't want to be held up to the same standards? These guys simply have no clue. They legitimately don't understand, & I pity them for making themselves look like idiots in the public eye. I never use it but these players deserve one: :facepalm:

Are you saying that the HEAT trio, is the main reason for this lockout!!! :mad:

lol :D

Your not going to blame the Lakers, Boston, Melo, stern, Cp3 trying to form a big 3 in NY, out in the open, Howard being a future free agent, hating *** GM's not doing their jobs, bad owners, Espn... etc!

gwrighter
11-20-2011, 03:32 AM
Are you saying that the HEAT trio, is the main reason for this lockout!!! :mad:

lol :D

Your not going to blame the Lakers, Boston, Melo, stern, Cp3 trying to form a big 3 in NY, out in the open, Howard being a future free agent, hating *** GM's not doing their jobs, bad owners, Espn... etc!

It was directed at any star player who's done that, I don't feel like talking about the heat.

players demand to win, when their GM's take risks to put a team around them & it doesn't succeed people call them bad GM's. When they take risks & they pay off, people call them good GM's. Its all BS. If a team could lock down there star without having to please their every little demand then maybe they could focus on building a team properly over a longer period of time.

The point that I am trying to make that people don't understand is what the owners & MGMT do under the current CBA is try to please the players. & when the players don't get what they want they do what they normally do. ***** & whine until they get what they want, well this time its different.

ink
11-20-2011, 03:33 AM
It was directed at any star player who's done that, I don't feel like talking about the heat.

players demand to win, when their GM's take risks to put a team around them & it doesn't succeed people call them bad GM's. When they take risks & they pay off, people call them good GM's. Its all BS. If a team could lock down there star without having to please their every little demand then maybe they could focus on building a team properly over a longer period of time.

The point that I am trying to make that people don't understand is that what the owners & MGMT do now is try to please the players. & when they don't get what they want they do what they normally do. ***** & whine until they get what they want, well this time its different.

Great post. Totally agree.

Dade County
11-20-2011, 04:11 AM
It was directed at any star player who's done that, I don't feel like talking about the heat.

players demand to win, when their GM's take risks to put a team around them & it doesn't succeed people call them bad GM's. When they take risks & they pay off, people call them good GM's. Its all BS. If a team could lock down there star without having to please their every little demand then maybe they could focus on building a team properly over a longer period of time.

The point that I am trying to make that people don't understand is what the owners & MGMT do under the current CBA is try to please the players. & when the players don't get what they want they do what they normally do. ***** & whine until they get what they want, well this time its different.

Hold on...

How are they going to LOCK this star player down:confused: Are you trying to imply, that the players shouldn't be able to be free agents?

Even worse... If a team drafts a player, if that player turns out to be a star, are you saying he can never sign anywhere else, as long as that team that drafted him, says so?

two letters for you... KG

I can go one and one and one.

I just would like to know, what you mean by ( If these teams can LOCK down their players )... thank you.

Dade County
11-20-2011, 04:13 AM
Great post. Totally agree.

What do you agree with:confused:

A carrier franchise TAG :shrug:

PrettyBoyJ
11-20-2011, 04:47 AM
Hold on...

How are they going to LOCK this star player down:confused: Are you trying to imply, that the players shouldn't be able to be free agents?

Even worse... If a team drafts a player, if that player turns out to be a star, are you saying he can never sign anywhere else, as long as that team that drafted him, says so?

two letters for you... KG

I can go one and one and one.

I just would like to know, what you mean by ( If these teams can LOCK down their players )... thank you.

He Doesn't mean locking a player down so they can't leave but signing a star player without any threats off jumping ship when their demands are not met.. With that in place GMs can focus on building a team instead of worrying if X players is happy or not

gwrighter
11-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Hold on...

How are they going to LOCK this star player down:confused: Are you trying to imply, that the players shouldn't be able to be free agents?

Even worse... If a team drafts a player, if that player turns out to be a star, are you saying he can never sign anywhere else, as long as that team that drafted him, says so?

two letters for you... KG

I can go one and one and one.

I just would like to know, what you mean by ( If these teams can LOCK down their players )... thank you.

The KG example was under the old system that favours large markets with big spending owners. With a new fairer system that doesn't favour big spenders good players will have a better chance than before at winning with the team that drafted them & making the most money in the process. Make it more alluring for the star players to stay with their current team. A harder cap, less spending options for all teams. So owners & MGMT don't have to worry about their star fleeing to go play somewhere else & thus don't have to cave into their demands to win now. They can build a team properly by taking a long run approach & taking that approach doesn't guarantee losses, almost like it does now. "rebuilding"

AndyfromNeptune
11-20-2011, 11:35 AM
They did not vote to decertify there was no need to when they filed the disclaimer of interest, which by the way doesn't need all the players vote, go figure??

To decertify all players must vote, and no that never happened.

Its not just the media passing along misinformed information, it is fans who don't understand all the in's and outs who just keep passing along more and more false information and having fans actually believe what they say.

Sorry to be such a hard nose about it, but that is what is exactly whats happening.


In my opinion, fans including me are the dumb ones, we just stand by and let the owners and the players manipulate us.

We pay the owners who in turn pay the players, we should unite and give them either sign by such a date or we don't show up, we don't pay for any NBA gear, jersey's , t-shirts, etc....

We should control this lockout, but we stand by and simply wait, and now the season appears lost because we fans are just pawns moved from place to place and do whatever the owners and players decide on.

To me its all BS, the two sides should have figured out a way to close the gap, come to terms and play the game we support and pay for.

We the fans failed, not the players, not the owners and not the media.

Me and everyone else just talk about what everyone leads us to believe, we should for once and for all say enough is enough and make demands ourselves.

Maybe this is the site to it, maybe its not, but till someone tries you never know.

Great Post.

NYY09
11-20-2011, 12:06 PM
Lbj was a free agent.... I think you mean Melo (Oh NO, hear it comes, I said Melo "NY Fans" and just pointed out that Lbj was a free agent... the world/psd is going to come crashing down on me) :hide:



These players are taking in personal, they should see it as, it's just business!
Who ever has the most money wins the game ( OWNERS )

Normally, this is true 99% of the time. In this case however you're talking about 29 Owner with different degrees of wealth, and clearly not all agree on the majority of the issues.

If it was plain and simple business between two entities, employer-employee, then you can make a case for business as usual but when you drag in Unions and the media there's more to it, obviously. Ego's, reputations, power along with money are driving this ship, and the Captain is laughing the hardest, Stern, he has a job irreguardless.

Also, believe me there are owners whose best interest is far from having a canceled season.

still a fan
11-20-2011, 03:07 PM
Players will always have the rigt to be FA's, and Bird rights with S&T's is what hurt the teams losing star players.

This was an error by the NBA, and just two years in to that CBA contract stated it will change, now that the new CBA is here they are trying to correct their mistakes.

Some fans say well the players had it already why take it away? Without change one way or the other you will fail. Its just the players want to put themselves in the position of never failing getting what they want and get paid the highest amount possible.

Reality, this is not 2004, this is almost 2012 and the economy is in real bad shape. Most people have taken some sought of hit, be it salary, benefits, 401 plans, or even lost jobs, yet the players want to be free to go where they want no matter how it affects the team they are losing.

Now I'll agree they can be FA's but I'll agree with the owners why to a team that is paying luxury tax???

Fans realize the owners aren't taking away the players right to be free, they can go to another team but not one that already has a roster over 70MIL....

Is this getting understood now? If a team is over the cap by 18 mil the NBA is saying okay enough you can't now S&T to get a great player, let the other teams who aren't spending near the cap at 58 MIL have an opportunity.

This is so damn logical you have to put your fan hood aside and stop thinking the NBA players are God's and the owners need to be successful as well, at least given the opportunity.


The NBA can also copy other sports and in FA if you get a star player you have to compensate them with a pick 1st round, if the player is say a MLE type player then a 2nd round pick.

At least this way the teams losing players they drafted get some sought of compensation back.

ink
11-20-2011, 03:17 PM
Players will always have the rigt to be FA's, and Bird rights with S&T's is what hurt the teams losing star players.

This was an error by the NBA, and just two years in to that CBA contract stated it will change, now that the new CBA is here they are trying to correct their mistakes.

Some fans say well the players had it already why take it away? Without change one way or the other you will fail. Its just the players want to put themselves in the position of never failing getting what they want and get paid the highest amount possible.

Reality, this is not 2004, this is almost 2012 and the economy is in real bad shape. Most people have taken some sought of hit, be it salary, benefits, 401 plans, or even lost jobs, yet the players want to be free to go where they want no matter how it affects the team they are losing.

Now I'll agree they can be FA's but I'll agree with the owners why to a team that is paying luxury tax???

Fans realize the owners aren't taking away the players right to be free, they can go to another team but not one that already has a roster over 70MIL....

Is this getting understood now? If a team is over the cap by 18 mil the NBA is saying okay enough you can't now S&T to get a great player, let the other teams who aren't spending near the cap at 58 MIL have an opportunity.

This is so damn logical you have to put your fan hood aside and stop thinking the NBA players are God's and the owners need to be successful as well, at least given the opportunity.


The NBA can also copy other sports and in FA if you get a star player you have to compensate them with a pick 1st round, if the player is say a MLE type player then a 2nd round pick.

At least this way the teams losing players they drafted get some sought of compensation back.

Very solid post. :clap:

nycericanguy
11-20-2011, 03:18 PM
I've honestly reached the point where I just don't care anymore. Wake me up when they decide they want to have a season....

same here, only check up on this in my downtime when i'm really bored. I used to check feverishly..lol

Dade County
11-21-2011, 04:02 PM
The KG example was under the old system that favours large markets with big spending owners. With a new fairer system that doesn't favour big spenders good players will have a better chance than before at winning with the team that drafted them & making the most money in the process. Make it more alluring for the star players to stay with their current team. A harder cap, less spending options for all teams. So owners & MGMT don't have to worry about their star fleeing to go play somewhere else & thus don't have to cave into their demands to win now. They can build a team properly by taking a long run approach & taking that approach doesn't guarantee losses, almost like it does now. "rebuilding"

Ok... as long as you were not saying, that players couldn't leave their team for what ever reason.

But that star player could realize that he is never going to win in his current surroundings, and still leave, & take less. You never know, it could happen:D

Dade County
11-21-2011, 04:09 PM
He Doesn't mean locking a player down so they can't leave but signing a star player without any threats off jumping ship when their demands are not met..


How does that work?

What do you mean by jumping ship.... You just stated that the player signed a contract, he isn't going anywhere until that CONTRACT is up.



With that in place GMs can focus on building a team instead of worrying if X players is happy or not

WHAT?*The player is under contract (tell him to shut the **** up). When that contract is up, he can leave. ( I HOPE that player leaving is not a problem for YOU).

gwrighter
11-21-2011, 06:15 PM
Ok... as long as you were not saying, that players couldn't leave their team for what ever reason.

But that star player could realize that he is never going to win in his current surroundings, and still leave, & take less. You never know, it could happen:D

Yep it could happen. You can't make them sign more expensive contracts lol. But usually their family members/agents/girlfriend/friends make them take as much as possible.

The point is that if they want to go somewhere else they will be declining a significant amount of money in the process. They can't get paid Max & play where they want with who they want.