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JordansBulls
11-16-2011, 02:30 PM
http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/heatzone/2011/11/14/shaq-compares-wade-and-lebron-and-rips-bosh-does-he-get-it-right/




“LeBron, I think, was ready for it. The other two guys? I’m not sure. DWade is a clutch player, but he doesn’t like all the chatter. He wants good press. Anything negative gets him thinking about the wrong things.”

While I would agree that Wade has cultivated a generally positive image, and has generally tried to protect that image, I don’t believe that James was more ready for the pressure than Wade was, or that he was necessarily more comfortable as a villain. At least in terms of handling the media attention, Wade often took the lead, and usually seemed more poised and controlled, except for those times that he cast the Heat as a victim.

Here’s more from Shaq, on the comparison between the two:

“People ask me all the time: If you had to choose between DWade and LeBron, which would you take? Which one would you make the CEO? It’s really a tough question. LeBron is a better decision maker. DWade will hit more last-second shots. Lots of superstars in their position want and need to take the last shot. LeBron is more of an ‘opportunity’ CEO. He’s not afraid to take the last shot, but he won’t hesitate to pass it to an open Mike Miller either. So where do these two guys measure up against Kobe? Kobe is a scientific dawg. He works out every day, practices every day. Most of the other stars are just dawgs, not scientific dawgs. Me, I’m a freak-of-nature dawg because of my size. LeBron could be a scientific dawg like Kobe, but he’s got a lot going on like I did, so that’s preventing him from being one.”

O’Neal is less kind in his view of Chris Bosh:

“Some guys come into the league without a ton of props, so there’s not a whole lot of pressure on them. Then they sign a big deal and all of a sudden they’re thrown into the spotlight. Chris Bosh is like that. He’s getting all this attention, so he starts believing he’s really good. C’mon now. We know better. He’s a player who can put up some numbers, but he’s not an elite player. He was in Toronto eight years and they were never a factor, never a playoff team. Don’t get with those other two guys and start pounding your chest. I ain’t buying it, and I’m not the only one.”

Of course, Bosh did make the playoffs twice in Toronto.

But Shaq has never shied away from hyperbole.

kblo247
11-16-2011, 02:37 PM
So you going to cut the Kobe part or just use it to make a new thread as if we need 2 topics on one excerpt?

Wade - great player, killer, just doesn't like being the villain but will be when pushed into a corner

LeBron - very much like Shaq, naturally gifted, but his focus isnt basketball first, it is about being a billionaire like Shaq's was being a star in Hollywood, so he doesn't put the polish on his game just like Shaq after having years to do so and will have an ugly downfall when that natural raw ability diminsishes

Kobe -he called him a scientific dawg who lived the game of basketball, and it shows in the way he adapts, works on all aspects of his game, compensates for declining athleticism or injuries to stay relatively on par with where he always is.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 03:26 PM
So you going to cut the Kobe part or just use it to make a new thread as if we need 2 topics on one excerpt?

Wade - great player, killer, just doesn't like being the villain but will be when pushed into a corner

LeBron - very much like Shaq, naturally gifted, but his focus isnt basketball first, it is about being a billionaire like Shaq's was being a star in Hollywood, so he doesn't put the polish on his game just like Shaq after having years to do so and will have an ugly downfall when that natural raw ability diminsishes

Kobe -he called him a scientific dawg who lived the game of basketball, and it shows in the way he adapts, works on all aspects of his game, compensates for declining athleticism or injuries to stay relatively on par with where he always is.

Shouldn't we wait and see? his shot has become better year after year and he's working on his post game this summer.. he's so young.. kind of stupid to say this so early..
And I didn't know you knew what Lebron was doing during the off season..or what he was focusing on?

Birdmannn
11-16-2011, 03:31 PM
So you going to cut the Kobe part or just use it to make a new thread as if we need 2 topics on one excerpt?

Wade - great player, killer, just doesn't like being the villain but will be when pushed into a corner

LeBron - very much like Shaq, naturally gifted, but his focus isnt basketball first, it is about being a billionaire like Shaq's was being a star in Hollywood, so he doesn't put the polish on his game just like Shaq after having years to do so and will have an ugly downfall when that natural raw ability diminsishes

Kobe -he called him a scientific dawg who lived the game of basketball, and it shows in the way he adapts, works on all aspects of his game, compensates for declining athleticism or injuries to stay relatively on par with where he always is.

Good post.
Huge LBJ fan and I think the same thing, that he doesn't live and breath basketball. Amazing player and huge talent since he came into the league. Just seems slow on improving.
Just my opinion, but I hope that loss on the center stage in a series which I believe the HEAT could have easily taken it, will make him mature and come back with that drive to destroy the competition every night.

kblo247
11-16-2011, 03:49 PM
Shouldn't we wait and see? his shot has become better year after year and he's working on his post game this summer.. he's so young.. kind of stupid to say this so early..
And I didn't know you knew what Lebron was doing during the off season..or what he was focusing on?

The Kobe, T-Mac, JO, and KG rule of miles applies. They are all young still especially compared to the generation before them but they have miles from making the high school jump

It isnt unfair to say that when LeBron has been in the league for going on 8 ears and hasn't developed a post game, ability to play of the ball for long stretches, and so on . Those holes are will there after years. Kobe and T-Mac for example at a younger age and with less years were much more refined fundamental wise.

Lebron has said his goal is to be a billionaire when he was asked the question. He didn't spout off champion, GOAT, or anything first. That came out his own mouth as his brand is important to him. Not saying his priories are all wrong or that it has stopped him from dominating, but it has hurt his natural progression of rounding off his skills that the likes of Kobe had at 24. His focus is divided like Shaq but he can afford for it to be because he is a natural beast who can dominate most with his niche just like Shaq could, until that same dominance and weight he carries on that frame started weighing him down because that lift, step, and explosion diminsihed. In fact of you want proof just look at last year was a step slower especially in the finals when it came to getting by people

nickdymez
11-16-2011, 03:53 PM
Shouldn't we wait and see? his shot has become better year after year and he's working on his post game this summer.. he's so young.. kind of stupid to say this so early..
And I didn't know you knew what Lebron was doing during the off season..or what he was focusing on?

Shouldnt we wait and see????? Its been 8 years.. We still gotta wait and see?

Sactown
11-16-2011, 03:55 PM
The Kobe, T-Mac, JO, and KG rule of miles applies. They are all young still especially compared to the generation before them but they have miles from making the high school jump

It isnt unfair to say that when LeBron has been in the league for going on 8 ears and hasn't developed a post game, ability to play of the ball for long stretches, and so on . Those holes are will there after years. Kobe and T-Mac for example at a younger age and with less years were much more refined fundamental wise.

Lebron has said his goal is to be a billionaire when he was asked the question. He didn't spout off champion, GOAT, or anything first. That came out his own mouth as his brand is important to him. Not saying his priories are all wrong or that it has stopped him from dominating, but it has hurt his natural progression of rounding off his skills that the likes of Kobe had at 24. His focus is divided like Shaq but he can afford for it to be because he is a natural beast who can dominate most with his niche just like Shaq could, until that same dominance and weight he carries on that frame started weighing him down because that lift, step, and explosion diminsihed. In fact of you want proof just look at last year was a step slower especially in the finals when it came to getting by people
You're still making the assumption his career is going to end that way. As if he doesn't have time to adjust.. he is not nearly as injury prone as shaq was which is a big difference as well

Sadds The Gr8
11-16-2011, 04:01 PM
agree on his opinions of RUPAUL.

nickdymez
11-16-2011, 04:11 PM
smh

JordansBulls
11-16-2011, 04:16 PM
So you going to cut the Kobe part or just use it to make a new thread as if we need 2 topics on one excerpt?

Wade - great player, killer, just doesn't like being the villain but will be when pushed into a corner

LeBron - very much like Shaq, naturally gifted, but his focus isnt basketball first, it is about being a billionaire like Shaq's was being a star in Hollywood, so he doesn't put the polish on his game just like Shaq after having years to do so and will have an ugly downfall when that natural raw ability diminsishes

Kobe -he called him a scientific dawg who lived the game of basketball, and it shows in the way he adapts, works on all aspects of his game, compensates for declining athleticism or injuries to stay relatively on par with where he always is.

Not sure, I was iffy on if I should use Kobe in the title since the link basically just uses Wade and Lebron in the title. Didn't want the thread to go haywire. But if you like we can add Kobe to the thread title.

Chronz
11-16-2011, 04:16 PM
Shaq lasted 18 years and is currently tied for All-NBA/All-Star births, his career was plenty long. Im pretty sure both of them put basketball as the #1 priority.

Miami316Heat
11-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Shouldnt we wait and see????? Its been 8 years.. We still gotta wait and see?

How long you wait till Jordan win first ring??? just askin

Shmontaine
11-16-2011, 04:39 PM
Shaq lasted 18 years and is currently tied for All-NBA/All-Star births, his career was plenty long. Im pretty sure both of them put basketball as the #1 priority.

kazaam! was obviously shaq's first priority..

Sactown
11-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Shouldnt we wait and see????? Its been 8 years.. We still gotta wait and see?

Yes and he's shown improvement each year, so stfu

Shmontaine
11-16-2011, 05:25 PM
Yes and he's shown improvement each year, so stfu


he's regressed the last two years in the postseason, when it matters most IMO

Sactown
11-16-2011, 05:51 PM
he's regressed the last two years in the postseason, when it matters most IMO

His postseason numbers aren't even bad.. 23.7 8.4 5.9
his game has evolved

kblo247
11-16-2011, 05:56 PM
Yes and he's shown improvement each year, so stfu

He got better at doing what he already did well dating back to high school. Bulldoze people on the way to the rim for dunks, be streaky from 3, draw free throws, rebound, pass, and block shots. He just made his niche stronger as his athletic ability peaked and progressed.

Shaq did the same exact things. He was already good at getting position, he just got better as he entered his peak those 3 peat years. He was already good at powering through contact, he just got better and smashed it harder against contact. He was always a natural passer who just got better at hitting shooters. Shaq was good at all of that at LSU and when he peaked those skills were maxed out, but he still couldn't defend pick and rolls well, rebound well night in and night out, block multiple shots nightly, or make free throws consistently.

Developing what you already have and maxing out that attribute, isn't the same as developing your fundamentals and skills into a well rounded game as a whole. They are very similar, just the obvious difference being LeBron treats his body like a tank and works it out to stay in shape, unlike Shaq who let himself get fat and happy, but for all we know if LeBron wins and proves the critics wrong he may do just the same because Shaq didn't get fat until he won his first ring and shut the same critics who were killing him during 87, 98, and 99 in the LA Times up

Cal827
11-16-2011, 05:58 PM
lol damn, he really hates Bosh.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 06:02 PM
He got better at doing what he already did well dating back to high school. Bulldoze people on the way to the rim for dunks, be streaky from 3, draw free throws, rebound, pass, and block shots. He just made his niche stronger as his athletic ability peaked and progressed.

Shaq did the same exact things. He was already good at getting position, he just got better as he entered his peak those 3 peat years. He was already good at powering through contact, he just got better and smashed it harder against contact. He was always a natural passer who just got better at hitting shooters. Shaq was good at all of that at LSU and when he peaked those skills were maxed out, but he still couldn't defend pick and rolls well, rebound well night in and night out, block multiple shots nightly, or make free throws consistently.

Developing what you already have and maxing out that attribute, isn't the same as developing your fundamentals and skills into a well rounded game as a whole. They are very similar, just the obvious difference being LeBron treats his body like a tank and works it out to stay in shape, unlike Shaq who let himself get fat and happy, but for all we know if LeBron wins and proves the critics wrong he may do just the same because Shaq didn't get fat until he won his first ring and shut the same critics who were killing him during 87, 98, and 99 in the LA Times up

Lebron James has become a better outside shooter than when he came into the league, his FG% and 3PT % have gone up, he's become an elite defender.. his Rebound numbers have gone up, as well as his asst, his scoring isn't only a result of bulldozing people over either. he is good at getting to the rim and finishing, but everything definitely evolved and that isn't just a result of his body hitting its prime.

kblo247
11-16-2011, 06:03 PM
lol damn, he really hates Bosh.

LOL usually he has to play with you and use you to carry him through parts of a season before he throws you under the bus. Or at least have you pay or coach him.

Bosh is the exception. Like he pissed in his Krispy Kreme box

Rego247
11-16-2011, 06:06 PM
agree on his opinions of rupaul.

+1

beliges
11-16-2011, 06:08 PM
Lebron James has become a better outside shooter than when he came into the league, his FG% and 3PT % have gone up, he's become an elite defender.. his Rebound numbers have gone up, as well as his asst, his scoring isn't only a result of bulldozing people over either. he is good at getting to the rim and finishing, but everything definitely evolved and that isn't just a result of his body hitting its prime.

I agree with you that Lebron is a better player now than he was as a rookie. He has evolved to an extent but his problem is that his game is still predicated on his athleticism. He does not have a reliable jumper, he has no post up game, his foot work is poor and he has no go to move. He needs to become great at every aspect of the game. For starters, he needs to develop some sort of back to the basket game. As was evidenced in the Finals last season, when teams clog the paint and prevent him from lowering his shoulder and getting to the rim he becomes unproductive. He has a lot of room for improvement still but he is young and I have no doubt he will continue to improve. But can he predicate his game around skills and fundamentals? Thats the answer we are all looking for because in a few years once his immense athleticism if gone, what is he gonna have left?

kblo247
11-16-2011, 06:08 PM
Lebron James has become a better outside shooter than when he came into the league, his FG% and 3PT % have gone up, he's become an elite defender.. his Rebound numbers have gone up, as well as his asst, his scoring isn't only a result of bulldozing people over either. he is good at getting to the rim and finishing, but everything definitely evolved and that isn't just a result of his body hitting its prime.

But his foot work, ability to be off the ball, and post moves/game were not there dating back to high school. 8 years later people are still saying he will get to that. He always was streaky as a shooter, but now can sustain the streaks longer. He was always a great rebounder for his position but can now rebound better. He always could pass just now he can with more umph and flash. And we all know what he can do if he lowers a shoulder and drives.

Shaq didn't have the ability to hit free throws, defend pick and rolls, swat a lot of shots, or kill you on the glass nightly at LSU. People said he will get to that, after an 18 year career that really didn't change because like Kareem said, Shaq was already so great a why he could do and did it better than most, so he went with the if it ain't broke, don't fix it or add to it approach.

The similarity is there to me because LeBron has to actually show, not all about, but show he fixes his holes. Shaq would talk about being ale to hit free throws, rebound, defend pick and rolls and all that, and he would say I'm going to improve on that going into summers at exit interviews. He talked but didn't do, just got better at what he was great at. LeBron has to work on that stuff and then bring it to a NBA court and season night in and night out.

The personality is also similar. It was never Shaq who was the problem or who let others down. It has never been LeBron. They both were coddled in the infancy of their careers. They both had outside interests away from the court when it came to their brand. They both loved showing people up. They hate being criticized. Now granted LeBron is more focused on work when it is tip time but they have more in common than they differ. LeBron has half a career left to change things up, he might, he might not, only time will tell but the 8 years before haven't shown he will suddenly look at his holes and develop them then translate them

Sactown
11-16-2011, 06:12 PM
But his foot work, ability to be off the ball, and post moves/game were not there dating back to high school. 8 years later people are still saying he will get to that.

Shaq didn't have the ability to hit free throws, defend pick and rolls, swat a lot of shots, or kill you on the glass nightly at LSU. People said he will get to that, after an 18 year career that really didn't change because like Kareem said, Shaq was already so great a why he could do and did it better than most, so he went with the if it ain't broke, don't fix it or add to it approach.

The similarity is there to me because LeBron has to actually show, not all about, but show he fixes his holes. Shaq would talk about being ale to hit free throws, rebound, defend pick and rolls and all that, and he would say I'm going to improve on that going into summers at exit interviews. He talked but didn't do, just got better at what he was great at. LeBron has to work on that stuff and then bring it to a NBA court and season night in and night out.

Yes, but Lebron has never needed a post game or needed to learn to play off the ball since he was the offense in Cleveland. I say we give him more time at Miami before we decide he has a poor work ethic or desire to be better.. he's had a season, let's see if he adjust before we pass judgement. That's all I have to say. Give him another season

Chronz
11-16-2011, 06:20 PM
The , T-Mac, JO, and KG rule of miles applies. They are all young still especially compared to the generation before them but they have miles from making the high school jump
Regarding those 3 players, how would you factor in genetic predisposition to a certain kind of injury? None of those players shared the same profile in terms of prospective careers. 3 players seems abit like a fluke rather than a trend, though Im sure the general idea your making (that mileage matters more than age) holds true if you expanded it to all HS players. Just saying its something that should be examined on a case by case basis.

Regardless of how long we think he can get by on his "talent", when people speak of giving him time (in comparison to traditional college players), they allude to the fact that being an 18 year old rookie isnt the same as being a 22 year old rookie in terms of preparation so you cannot fairly judge them on that scale.

Though I would agree that these past few years have marked his best days.


It isnt unfair to say that when LeBron has been in the league for going on 8 ears and hasn't developed a post game, ability to play of the ball for long stretches, and so on . Those holes are will there after years. Kobe and T-Mac for example at a younger age and with less years were much more refined fundamental wise.
If by long stretches you mean consistently rely on it then I can buy that argument, Bron hasnt mastered any one offensive aspect of his game, rather hes becomes proficient in multiple areas, so to say he hasnt developed a post game or off the ball play would depend on your comparison.
However he does go through stretches in his career when his 5-tool approach is so on point that he becomes indefensible, in the playoffs, to a degree few players can compete with. He may not put in as much work as your favorite players, and may not provide his team with what you value in a championship construct, but that wont prevent him from winning it all. The minutes are adding up though.


Lebron has said his goal is to be a billionaire when he was asked the question. He didn't spout off champion, GOAT, or anything first. That came out his own mouth as his brand is important to him. Not saying his priories are all wrong or that it has stopped him from dominating, but it has hurt his natural progression of rounding off his skills that the likes of Kobe had at 24. His focus is divided like Shaq but he can afford for it to be because he is a natural beast who can dominate most with his niche just like Shaq could, until that same dominance and weight he carries on that frame started weighing him down because that lift, step, and explosion diminsihed. In fact of you want proof just look at last year was a step slower especially in the finals when it came to getting by people

I agree, hes looking sluggish, which is why he has an underrated jumper, its literally how he scored all year last season but few acknowledge it. However, against elite Defenses, if he has no legs he cant rely on much of his game and he looks like Pippen 2.0.

As for your point about his priorities, people said the same thing when MJ was becoming an icon. They asked if all the endorsements and extra cash would effect his game and either MJ or his PR staff said something along the lines of him losing the endorsements if he doesnt win. Bron knows in order to accomplish his iconic status, he needs chips. Ergo, hes focused on winning.

kblo247
11-16-2011, 07:00 PM
The thing is Nike cashed in 90M before LeBron entered the league, let alone won anything. It is just hard to see anyone not giving him endorsements. He is the second biggest draw and icon in the league so people would be dumb not to pay him and then use his image for their own gain, no matter how you personally feel about him. I think he wants to win because it is a necessity to get the result he desires most admittedly.

I think LeBron loves the game, works hard, it just isn't his world so to speak. Nothing wrong with that for him or for Shaq, unless if it interferes with how he plays and is available on the court like with Shaq who had his priorities called out. So far it hasn't hurt his team, but I just think he could be so much better if he filled in some holes. I'm not saying master your foot work, being off the ball, or playing in the post overnight, just find a way to do a little bit of all three every night consistently and build on it every year.

As for the high school names I used for the miles argument, I chose them because they were the guys to come out and become superstars and household names like LeBron. All of them carried varying weights and were under different microscopes but they all share the fact they went from high school player to NBA superstar and were considered the best or in JO's case 3rd best at his position (depending on what you define him and/or Duncan as really being PF or C). Like LeBron their age is still young, but they have miles on the, of veterans. LeBron has the miles on him of a vet unlike the average joe in the league at his age, and he also has the fact he carries a lot of literal weight on his frame which catches up with you later on.

beliges
11-16-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes, but Lebron has never needed a post game or needed to learn to play off the ball since he was the offense in Cleveland. I say we give him more time at Miami before we decide he has a poor work ethic or desire to be better.. he's had a season, let's see if he adjust before we pass judgement. That's all I have to say. Give him another season

Never needed to? No player ever needs to develop a post game or learn to play off the ball. You do it to improve. Lebron needed to develop a post game and learn to play off the ball in Cleavland since I dont remember him winning in Cleavland. He could have improved but he doesnt yet possess that drive that makes him drastically improve from year to year. Maybe now that he is getting older and his athleticism is slipping a bit he will start developing other parts of his game. But, only time will tell.

Cal827
11-16-2011, 07:17 PM
LOL usually he has to play with you and use you to carry him through parts of a season before he throws you under the bus. Or at least have you pay or coach him.

Bosh is the exception. Like he pissed in his Krispy Kreme box

:laugh2:

Bulls_fan90
11-16-2011, 07:26 PM
Rupaul is a joke. Decent player but I'm not sure he's mentally all there.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 07:58 PM
Never needed to? No player ever needs to develop a post game or learn to play off the ball. You do it to improve. Lebron needed to develop a post game and learn to play off the ball in Cleavland since I dont remember him winning in Cleavland. He could have improved but he doesnt yet possess that drive that makes him drastically improve from year to year. Maybe now that he is getting older and his athleticism is slipping a bit he will start developing other parts of his game. But, only time will tell.

The point was, that given the offensive system he was in, he was developing the most effective parts of his game because gaining a post game wouldn't of helped him as much as developing an outside shot, or develop his passing game/ rebound.. he developed his defense and shooting percentage, now that MIAMI needs a better post player and a player who can be successful without the ball it will be interesting to see how he develops those skills during the offense, since now they are actually needed. THAT's what a true basketball player does, he finds out what he needs to develop to help the team most and he does it.. it'll be interesting to see what he develops in the off season and there are rumors he is added a post game to his arsenal.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 07:59 PM
The thing is Nike cashed in 90M before LeBron entered the league, let alone won anything. It is just hard to see anyone not giving him endorsements. He is the second biggest draw and icon in the league so people would be dumb not to pay him and then use his image for their own gain, no matter how you personally feel about him. I think he wants to win because it is a necessity to get the result he desires most admittedly.

I think LeBron loves the game, works hard, it just isn't his world so to speak. Nothing wrong with that for him or for Shaq, unless if it interferes with how he plays and is available on the court like with Shaq who had his priorities called out. So far it hasn't hurt his team, but I just think he could be so much better if he filled in some holes. I'm not saying master your foot work, being off the ball, or playing in the post overnight, just find a way to do a little bit of all three every night consistently and build on it every year.

As for the high school names I used for the miles argument, I chose them because they were the guys to come out and become superstars and household names like LeBron. All of them carried varying weights and were under different microscopes but they all share the fact they went from high school player to NBA superstar and were considered the best or in JO's case 3rd best at his position (depending on what you define him and/or Duncan as really being PF or C). Like LeBron their age is still young, but they have miles on the, of veterans. LeBron has the miles on him of a vet unlike the average joe in the league at his age, and he also has the fact he carries a lot of literal weight on his frame which catches up with you later on.

That's what I'm saying, he's never needed to add off the ball skills to be successful, the true way to judge how hard he is willing to work is if he develops off ball skills and a post game now that they are needed

truther
11-16-2011, 08:00 PM
Shouldnt we wait and see????? Its been 8 years.. We still gotta wait and see?

lol lebrons the best player in the game i dont get why people act like he hasn't improved or is a dissapointment of such like josh smith. lebron has reached and exceeded expectations.

truther
11-16-2011, 08:02 PM
he's regressed the last two years in the postseason, when it matters most IMO

regressed, past two years he lost in the semi and conf. this year he made it to the finals and took over two series when it matter most and closed them out.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 08:03 PM
lol lebrons the best player in the game i dont get why people act like he hasn't improved or is a dissapointment of such like josh smith. lebron has reached and exceeded expectations.

people refuse to admit that he's anything more than Corey Maggette and he's all athleticism and no skill....

truther
11-16-2011, 08:14 PM
I agree with you that Lebron is a better player now than he was as a rookie. He has evolved to an extent but his problem is that his game is still predicated on his athleticism. He does not have a reliable jumper, he has no post up game, his foot work is poor and he has no go to move. He needs to become great at every aspect of the game. For starters, he needs to develop some sort of back to the basket game. As was evidenced in the Finals last season, when teams clog the paint and prevent him from lowering his shoulder and getting to the rim he becomes unproductive. He has a lot of room for improvement still but he is young and I have no doubt he will continue to improve. But can he predicate his game around skills and fundamentals? Thats the answer we are all looking for because in a few years once his immense athleticism if gone, what is he gonna have left?

he does have a reliable jumper


Yes, but Lebron has never needed a post game or needed to learn to play off the ball since he was the offense in Cleveland. I say we give him more time at Miami before we decide he has a poor work ethic or desire to be better.. he's had a season, let's see if he adjust before we pass judgement. That's all I have to say. Give him another season

EXACTLY


Never needed to? No player ever needs to develop a post game or learn to play off the ball. You do it to improve. Lebron needed to develop a post game and learn to play off the ball in Cleavland since I dont remember him winning in Cleavland. He could have improved but he doesnt yet possess that drive that makes him drastically improve from year to year. Maybe now that he is getting older and his athleticism is slipping a bit he will start developing other parts of his game. But, only time will tell.

lol are you serious, he worked to refine the skills he already has, whats the point of having a post game when you really don't need it since your at the perimeter a lot. i still believe lebron can score in the post anytime he wants you guys are acting like as if he's ******** down there and are DRASTICALLY over exagerating his supposed bad foot work. give him the ball in the post he will score 9/10 on anyone he has a size advantage over. he doesn't need some kind of fancy hook shot when he's taller and stronger than everyone else. i mean look at dwight his post game doesn't look pretty but based off pure strength and size advatage he can score on any center in the post.


The point was, that given the offensive system he was in, he was developing the most effective parts of his game because gaining a post game wouldn't of helped him as much as developing an outside shot, or develop his passing game/ rebound.. he developed his defense and shooting percentage, now that MIAMI needs a better post player and a player who can be successful without the ball it will be interesting to see how he develops those skills during the offense, since now they are actually needed. THAT's what a true basketball player does, he finds out what he needs to develop to help the team most and he does it.. it'll be interesting to see what he develops in the off season and there are rumors he is added a post game to his arsenal.

exactly, first year where a post game is needed from him and now he's training with hakeem.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 08:21 PM
he does have a reliable jumper



EXACTLY



lol are you serious, he worked to refine the skills he already has, whats the point of having a post game when you really don't need it since your at the perimeter a lot. i still believe lebron can score in the post anytime he wants you guys are acting like as if he's ******** down there and are DRASTICALLY over exagerating his supposed bad foot work. give him the ball in the post he will score 9/10 on anyone he has a size advantage over. he doesn't need some kind of fancy hook shot when he's taller and stronger than everyone else. i mean look at dwight his post game doesn't look pretty but based off pure strength and size advatage he can score on any center in the post.



exactly, first year where a post game is needed from him and now he's training with hakeem.

Other people act like since he doesn't have an absolute game he isn't working hard or he only relies on his athleticism...

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Jesus sactown way to spam every Lebron and Wade thread ...lol

Sactown
11-16-2011, 08:37 PM
Jesus sactown way to spam every Lebron and Wade thread ...lol
I'm not even a big fan of Lebron lol :o

beliges
11-16-2011, 09:09 PM
he does have a reliable jumper



EXACTLY



lol are you serious, he worked to refine the skills he already has, whats the point of having a post game when you really don't need it since your at the perimeter a lot. i still believe lebron can score in the post anytime he wants you guys are acting like as if he's ******** down there and are DRASTICALLY over exagerating his supposed bad foot work. give him the ball in the post he will score 9/10 on anyone he has a size advantage over. he doesn't need some kind of fancy hook shot when he's taller and stronger than everyone else. i mean look at dwight his post game doesn't look pretty but based off pure strength and size advatage he can score on any center in the post.



exactly, first year where a post game is needed from him and now he's training with hakeem.

His jumper is not reliable. Even casual NBA fans will state that the jumpshot is a weakness in Lebron's game. Its not something he can rely on to win games. Youre a super LBJ fan so you might disagree, but looking at it objectively, LBJ does not have a great jumper.

Lastly, yes, I AGREE that Lebron has improved from his 1st year in the league, but to say he "does not need to" work on a post game because hes a perimeter player is exactly whats wrong with Lebron. No, he doesnt need to work on it. He doesnt need to develop a post game but he would be a hell of a lot better if he did have a reliable post game. He has ZERO go to move as was evidenced by the fact he could not produce in anyway in the FInals last season. Right now, his post game is poor at best. His footwork is poor at best. His fundamentals are about average. He is not the type of player that relies on skill. He is more of an athletic player. A high flyer, a get to the rim and finish type of player. Nobody is saying Lebron is not great, because obviously, he is one of the best we have today. But, once his athleticism diminishes, he will struggle to score. Playing with Hakeem for a couple of sessions will not help him develop a post game. It takes years of work and dedication.

Look youre a LBJ fan so like i said, you might disagree but the general consensus of NBA fans know the faults of Lebron. If he wants to be an all time great, a top 10 player of all time, he needs to master every aspect of the game. So far, hes not close to doing that.

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 09:14 PM
This noobs ^^ way better than Sactown...good post man.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:16 PM
His jumper is not reliable. Even casual NBA fans will state that the jumpshot is a weakness in Lebron's game. Its not something he can rely on to win games. Youre a super LBJ fan so you might disagree, but looking at it objectively, LBJ does not have a great jumper.

Lastly, yes, I AGREE that Lebron has improved from his 1st year in the league, but to say he "does not need to" work on a post game because hes a perimeter player is exactly whats wrong with Lebron. No, he doesnt need to work on it. He doesnt need to develop a post game but he would be a hell of a lot better if he did have a reliable post game. He has ZERO go to move as was evidenced by the fact he could not produce in anyway in the FInals last season. Right now, his post game is poor at best. His footwork is poor at best. His fundamentals are about average. He is not the type of player that relies on skill. He is more of an athletic player. A high flyer, a get to the rim and finish type of player. Nobody is saying Lebron is not great, because obviously, he is one of the best we have today. But, once his athleticism diminishes, he will struggle to score. Playing with Hakeem for a couple of sessions will not help him develop a post game. It takes years of work and dedication.

Look youre a LBJ fan so like i said, you might disagree but the general consensus of NBA fans know the faults of Lebron. If he wants to be an all time great, a top 10 player of all time, he needs to master every aspect of the game. So far, hes not close to doing that.

His Jump shot isn't super reliable, but it does give him operating room and it is much improved.. and what we're trying to say is up to this point in his career adding a post game wouldn't of helped very much given Cleveland's game plan on the offensive end, but improving his jump shot and passing would. I think now he realizes that it would benefit his team so he's starting to improve it now. He'll also have to work on his off the ball skills as well and so will Wade

also no one has mastered every aspect of the game ever.. it's unreasonable to suggest anyone has.. Also he's developed something after each off season, so he's working on it.. there is no reason to expect he won't develop a post game and off ball skills as well

truther
11-16-2011, 09:18 PM
His jumper is not reliable. Even casual NBA fans will state that the jumpshot is a weakness in Lebron's game. Its not something he can rely on to win games. Youre a super LBJ fan so you might disagree, but looking at it objectively, LBJ does not have a great jumper.

Lastly, yes, I AGREE that Lebron has improved from his 1st year in the league, but to say he "does not need to" work on a post game because hes a perimeter player is exactly whats wrong with Lebron. No, he doesnt need to work on it. He doesnt need to develop a post game but he would be a hell of a lot better if he did have a reliable post game. He has ZERO go to move as was evidenced by the fact he could not produce in anyway in the FInals last season. Right now, his post game is poor at best. His footwork is poor at best. His fundamentals are about average. He is not the type of player that relies on skill. He is more of an athletic player. A high flyer, a get to the rim and finish type of player. Nobody is saying Lebron is not great, because obviously, he is one of the best we have today. But, once his athleticism diminishes, he will struggle to score. Playing with Hakeem for a couple of sessions will not help him develop a post game. It takes years of work and dedication.

Look youre a LBJ fan so like i said, you might disagree but the general consensus of NBA fans know the faults of Lebron. If he wants to be an all time great, a top 10 player of all time, he needs to master every aspect of the game. So far, hes not close to doing that.

why work on something that was useless for him at the time instead of improving on other areas of his game, its like asking derrick rose right now to work on his post game instead of improving his jumper,decision making,passing, like lebron rose is good on those skills but it does need refining.

and i dont think you can argue with cold hard facts, its like saying durant isnt a scorer when he leads the league in scoring. the casual fan doesn't know anything all they do is listen to skipp bayless call him lebrick james and not notice he has very good % from 10-15 ft and 16-23 ft. you can say his jumper from three isnt reliable but his overall jumper is reliable and it would be ignorant for you to disagree when cold hard facts are presented to you.

LAKERMANIA
11-16-2011, 09:27 PM
How long you wait till Jordan win first ring??? just askin

7 years, less than 8

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:31 PM
His jumper is not reliable. Even casual NBA fans will state that the jumpshot is a weakness in Lebron's game. Its not something he can rely on to win games. Youre a super LBJ fan so you might disagree, but looking at it objectively, LBJ does not have a great jumper.

Lastly, yes, I AGREE that Lebron has improved from his 1st year in the league, but to say he "does not need to" work on a post game because hes a perimeter player is exactly whats wrong with Lebron. No, he doesnt need to work on it. He doesnt need to develop a post game but he would be a hell of a lot better if he did have a reliable post game. He has ZERO go to move as was evidenced by the fact he could not produce in anyway in the FInals last season. Right now, his post game is poor at best. His footwork is poor at best. His fundamentals are about average. He is not the type of player that relies on skill. He is more of an athletic player. A high flyer, a get to the rim and finish type of player. Nobody is saying Lebron is not great, because obviously, he is one of the best we have today. But, once his athleticism diminishes, he will struggle to score. Playing with Hakeem for a couple of sessions will not help him develop a post game. It takes years of work and dedication.

Look youre a LBJ fan so like i said, you might disagree but the general consensus of NBA fans know the faults of Lebron. If he wants to be an all time great, a top 10 player of all time, he needs to master every aspect of the game. So far, hes not close to doing that.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7360/lebrons-evolution-on-display-down-the-stretch Please read this article, it talks a lot about which parts of his game he developed during this season with the HEAT


According to NBA.com's StatsCube, LeBron made 45 percent of his midrange jumpers this season, which is an incredibly efficient mark for a high-usage perimeter player. Paul Pierce made 44 percent of his midrange jumpers. Kobe Bryant made 42 percent. Derrick Rose made 40 percent. Dwyane Wade, 40 percent. Kevin Durant, 42 percent. Carmelo Anthony, 42 percent.
Here's a piece of it

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 09:34 PM
Based on that article with those cold hard facts, I now realize that Lebron actually has a reliable mid range jumper...lol. Thank you Sactown, ty so much.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:38 PM
Based on that article with those cold hard facts, I now realize that Lebron actually has a reliable mid range jumper...lol. Thank you Sactown, ty so much.

I'm glad you're an expert :eyebrow:
Let's see who's a more reliable source.. NBA.COM Statistics experts, or some forum troll.. It's close!

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm glad you're an expert :eyebrow:
Let's see who's a more reliable source.. NBA.COM Statistics experts, or some forum troll.. It's close!

See I've actually been watching and playing basketball since the 90's while you're probably barely 19. You calling me a troll on a forum where I'm known as being a good poster makes you seem like a idiot noob. I've actually talked basketball with actual nba players and owners while you have a hard time teaching your little cousins at family parties...lol.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:47 PM
See I've actually been watching and playing basketball since the 90's while you're probably barely 19. You calling me a troll on a forum where I'm known as being a good poster makes you seem like a idiot noob. I've actually talked basketball with actual nba players and owners while you have a hard time teaching your little cousins at family parties...lol.

Proof please? or shut the **** up

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 09:49 PM
Who's a more reliable source, your nba stats you love or Shaq? Lol, ok I thought so.

D Roses Bulls
11-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Shaq lasted 18 years and is currently tied for All-NBA/All-Star births, his career was plenty long. Im pretty sure both of them put basketball as the #1 priority.

disagree big time. there were times shaq came into camp out of shape, focused bball players don't come to camp out of shape. Shaq went to L.A. because he wanted to be a movie star-Rap star which after a couple years, thanks god he got the hint he wasn't any good, but if he had that Jordan Mentality..... OMG I can only imagine 40-20 nights on a regular basis especially during 1999-2003 when no one could stop him. He never seemed to put basketball first. He seemed to always want to be more then just a super star in the NBA.

Chronz
11-16-2011, 09:52 PM
Based on that article with those cold hard facts, I now realize that Lebron actually has a reliable mid range jumper...lol. Thank you Sactown, ty so much.
What more would you like to know?

If your going to ask why would a great shooter not show it in the Finals, well then I have to ask you why Ray Allen went cold in his Finals vs the Lakers after that 1 game?

Chronz
11-16-2011, 09:54 PM
disagree big time. there were times shaq came into camp out of shape, focused bball players don't come to camp out of shape. Shaq went to L.A. because he wanted to be a movie star-Rap star which after a couple years, thanks god he got the hint he wasn't any good, but if he had that Jordan Mentality..... OMG I can only imagine 40-20 nights on a regular basis especially during 1999-2003 when no one could stop him. He never seemed to put basketball first. He seemed to always want to be more then just a super star in the NBA.
I almost didnt recognize you feeny, whats with the change?

D Roses Bulls
11-16-2011, 09:55 PM
I almost didnt recognize you feeny, whats with the change?

just needed a change.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:57 PM
According to NBA.com's StatsCube, LeBron made 45 percent of his midrange jumpers this season, which is an incredibly efficient mark for a high-usage perimeter player. Paul Pierce made 44 percent of his midrange jumpers. Kobe Bryant made 42 percent. Derrick Rose made 40 percent. Dwyane Wade, 40 percent. Kevin Durant, 42 percent. Carmelo Anthony, 42 percent.

So he's improved his mid ranger jump shot


While it wasn't a traditional post move, it was exactly the kind of thing that LeBron has been working on with Heat assistant coach David Fizdale:
The eventual next step is a countermove, the drop-step, which James has been seen working on in the weeks before the playoffs.

He worked on his post game is continuing to work on it (rumored)


James got an off-ball screen from Chris Bosh, set a ball screen for Wade, and found himself with space at the free throw line when Delonte West and Paul Pierce went to trap Wade. Wade slithered through the trap and found James, forcing Kevin Garnett to rotate over to James and leave Bosh wide open at the rim; James passed to Bosh for a dunk that put the Heat up for good.

Here's some instances where the HEAT are learning to use Lebron off the ball


scoring 11 of the Heat's final 13 points in regulation and scoring or assisting on the first two baskets of overtime.

More important, LeBron's late-game heroics weren't just about his overcoming the late-game struggles that have plagued him. They were an exhibition of all the ways he's evolved as a player since coming into the league eight years ago:

And he's more clutch than people would like to think (this is referring to game 4 of the series)

And it's a synopsis of his growth throughout the last 8 years

Sactown
11-16-2011, 09:59 PM
What more would you like to know?

If your going to ask why would a great shooter not show it in the Finals, well then I have to ask you why Ray Allen went cold in his Finals vs the Lakers after that 1 game?

there's no point in arguing with him
he's just a troll

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 10:00 PM
Indeed, and he's got a lot of improving to do!

Sactown
11-16-2011, 10:00 PM
Who's a more reliable source, your nba stats you love or Shaq? Lol, ok I thought so.

Facts are always greater than opinion.. so the NBA facts..

mlisica19
11-16-2011, 10:04 PM
I make a logical assumption on LeBrons work ethic, and people go crazy saying what do I know what he does. Like I know his entire life.

Well its funny for this thread to come out and basically prove me right.

Shaq, very well said on LeBron. He doesnt put basketball first anymore...

Except to say that its at fault because he has a lot of stuff going on is far from an excuse. Shaq you said earlier in your book that the biggest worry you had in LA was getting a new contract. Are you kidding? That is your biggest worry? So to say LeBron is like you and has stuff going on... well what does he have to worry about? Makin 5 more million dollars?

Zefflin
11-16-2011, 10:08 PM
Kobe 5 Rings Lebron 0
Kobe consistent for over a decade Lebron working on trying to be consistent
Kobe says he could beat Lebron in his sleep Lebron says Kobe is best player in league quoted 3 or 4 times saying so
Majority of NBA players and coaches pick Kobe over Lebron

Lebron is great and all, but get off his bone is all I'm saying, lol, else I bring the belt out.

truther
11-16-2011, 10:09 PM
I could list some factual differences between Kobe and Lebron but I'm not boring and unoriginal like you my friend.

no one wants you to do that,dont know why everything has to be kobe vs lebron.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 10:14 PM
Oh and let's not forget how Kobe Bryant was clearly #2 on his team when he won his first 3 rings

mlisica19
11-16-2011, 10:19 PM
This is exactly what I was trying to explain to all of you.

Kobe is a scientific work dog. He will study the game, the opponent, himself and train himself accordingly. Hes getting older, but hes also getting smarter.

LeBron has all the talent and his body is able to physically dominate the competition. But basketball is not his main priority. He will never tell you that because hes a smart man when it comes to his public image and the media.

Shaq also was a dominating figure. But he wanted more $$$$, more fame. Basketball wasnt his main priority. Except he was more of a physical dominating figure, so like leBron he went onto great teams and won a few.

Except Shaq wasnt invisible in the 4th quarter... and was a lil bit more offensively dominating. LeBrons passing is on point... but not every pass turns into a basket. When Shaq got the ball, it was practically guaranteed a basket. And a rebounding and defensive monster...

Sactown
11-16-2011, 10:25 PM
This is exactly what I was trying to explain to all of you.

Kobe is a scientific work dog. He will study the game, the opponent, himself and train himself accordingly. Hes getting older, but hes also getting smarter.

LeBron has all the talent and his body is able to physically dominate the competition. But basketball is not his main priority. He will never tell you that because hes a smart man when it comes to his public image and the media.

Shaq also was a dominating figure. But he wanted more $$$$, more fame. Basketball wasnt his main priority. Except he was more of a physical dominating figure, so like leBron he went onto great teams and won a few.

Except Shaq wasnt invisible in the 4th quarter... and was a lil bit more offensively dominating. LeBrons passing is on point... but not every pass turns into a basket. When Shaq got the ball, it was practically guaranteed a basket. And a rebounding and defensive monster...
Did you read the article I posted? It shows how Lebrons been working his *** off on all aspects of his game? How can you refute that with this response? we all know Kobe has the greatest work ethic according to the public's knowledge, but the constant slam on Lebrons main focus not being on basketball is ridiculous, you can't be back to back MVP's and an elite defender without studying the opposition and developing your game.

Also I read somewhere the Kobe stopped practicing with the team during the end of the season because his knee's were running low and they didn't want to over work them, but I'm not 100% sure on it so I'll probably have to look into it, Kobe is slowing down and probably has 1-3 years left in the tank of being all star worthy

Sactown
11-16-2011, 10:31 PM
we were arguing why lebron is a good jumpshooter where the hell did kobe come from did i even mention kobe

Lebron 45% and Kobe 42% from mid range, just sayin

mlisica19
11-16-2011, 10:44 PM
Oh and let's not forget how Kobe Bryant was clearly #2 on his team when he won his first 3 rings

#2 #3 #4... who cares. He was a significant piece of those championship teams. Without Kobe, you dont know how those championships would have handled themselves. Plus you forget that he was extremely young during those times, and immature.

The guy is still a work horse. Always studying, always training.

I dont care where you guys rank him amongst the NBA legends... i would have no problem choosing him now over LeBron now.

Sactown
11-16-2011, 10:51 PM
#2 #3 #4... who cares. He was a significant piece of those championship teams. Without Kobe, you dont know how those championships would have handled themselves. Plus you forget that he was extremely young during those times, and immature.

The guy is still a work horse. Always studying, always training.

I dont care where you guys rank him amongst the NBA legends... i would have no problem choosing him now over LeBron now.

Most could be said about Lebron, and I don't believe you would choose Kobe now for your franchise than Lebron

naps
11-16-2011, 11:33 PM
Is that a coincidence that in every LeBron James thread there are some specific Lakers and Bulls fans jump in and start mumbling the same stuff over and over again?

nickdymez
11-16-2011, 11:50 PM
Is that a coincidence that in every LeBron James thread there are some specific Lakers and Bulls fans jump in and start mumbling the same stuff over and over again?

And every Lebron fan runs in with cape on to save the day!!

Sactown
11-17-2011, 12:49 AM
And every Lebron fan runs in with cape on to save the day!!

I've honestly just been trying to post articles on LBJ's work ethic and dedication to the game, as well as his development, I'm not trying to bash Kobe..

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 01:00 AM
I've honestly just been trying to post articles on LBJ's work ethic and dedication to the game, as well as his development, I'm not trying to bash Kobe..

Why you tellin me about Kobe?

CousinsEvansDUO
11-17-2011, 01:06 AM
Why you tellin me about Kobe?

Because Kobe is overpaid, is 34 years old, will start sucking major balls the next several years and the Lakers are done. Start crying and start hoping you get a top pick in the draft because that will be your only shining light and bringing your team back to its former glory.

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 01:10 AM
Because Kobe is overpaid, is 34 years old, will start sucking major balls the next several years and the Lakers are done. Start crying and start hoping you get a top pick in the draft because that will be your only shining light and bringing your team back to its former glory.

I still dont get it.. Are you trying to "bait" or "troll" me?

naps
11-17-2011, 01:54 AM
And every Lebron fan runs in with cape on to save the day!!

Well, you just proved what I said. Another insecure kobephine who spends 98% of his time here on bashing LeBron.

LakersIn5
11-17-2011, 07:41 AM
lebron is the best right now period

kArSoN RyDaH
11-17-2011, 08:10 AM
Kblo be killin it. lmao..

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 10:00 AM
Most could be said about Lebron, and I don't believe you would choose Kobe now for your franchise than Lebron

Than you dont understand who I really am.

I respect hard work. I am amazed at ones work ethic over ones god given talent any day of the week. I grew up with the eye of the tiger... you know Rocky movies, the will to fight and never to give up. Its true what they say, you can tell the difference between the players who want it more.

I think LeBron James is an immature athlete, Ive said it now for a few years... hes a kid in a mans body. He doesnt take basketball serious. I feel as though he thinks more about what hes doing after the game, how he and his team should enter the game, what jerseys they should wear for the game 2nite etc etc over the actual game tonight. These are assumptions I make off choices he makes that I see, logical guesses.

Except that my guesses are practically proven correct when people come out and say...
1) LeBron James almost kicked off USA team for his improper behavior. Coach K had enough of his arrogance and wanted him off the team.
2) Sponsors were afraid of his ignorance at an early age and sent letters home saying change up or were dropping you.
3) when Shaq comes out and says that the Cavs were allowing him to blow defesnive assignments and do whatever he wants
4) When he leaves his old team, without much notice, to go on ESPN for a 1 hour inteview about his decision
5) When he comes out with just Bosh and Wade for a Rock Concert to unveil their new trio. States they will win more than 7... or none, however you wanna put it. We all know he meant he will break records on this team
6)When Shaq comes out and says he doesnt make basketball his #1 priority.

All of these and more, I dont care how talented the man is. It just has seemed for the last 5 years or so that basketball isnt the main priority for him.

So why would I choose my franchise player, the center guy around my team... to be a guy who doesnt go 120% each and every day? Why would I want kobe over LeBron? Because Kobe is a better leader, a more experienced player. A better teacher and a better learner. Hes the first one into practice and meetings and the last one out. The one asking all the questions and ready to improve himself. He too was immature at one point, but at an early age he learned from his mistakes and became the elite player he is today. So I should give Lebron credit because hes so young, face it guys, he isnt getting younger. Hes getting older each day but more immature as well. If LeBron can mature like Jordan did at the age of 24 (realizing it wasnt all about him and flashy dunks), if he can mature like Kobe at 26 (realizing its not all about him, trusting in his coaches and teammates) than maybe he can be the best of all time. Except leBrons problem is that he doesnt think its all about him... he just doesnt focus all of his attention to basketball.

Dont expect links or proof from any of the above statements... why? Cuz i already made this point 100x on 100 other threads. Its quite easy to look up anything I said... But face it, and believe it... I dont respect leBron, so why would i make a team around him? I would choose a 5 players over LeBron, maybe more. I really dont want his kind of attitude on my team

truther
11-17-2011, 10:17 AM
if you hate lebron so much why are you posting essays each time lebron is brought up, your posts seem whiney. people need pills to get over their obsession with lebron.

heyman321
11-17-2011, 10:29 AM
A leprechaun told me that Lebron James is why world hunger and poverty exists.

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 10:30 AM
Well, you just proved what I said. Another insecure kobephine who spends 98% of his time here on bashing LeBron.

If you consider what i said about Lebron "Bashing", then your a sensitive man.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 10:50 AM
if you hate lebron so much why are you posting essays each time lebron is brought up, your posts seem whiney. people need pills to get over their obsession with lebron.


You kind of answered your own question buddy. The reason I post about LeBron is because I dont respect him. This is a sports talk, I will talk about LeBron. An athlete. Your post is talking about posts others are making about sports.

I try not to write essays, but when people say they dont believe me, or they dont understand why I hate LeBron. Your going to get my answer. Even in my LONG post, I stated I could go on and on and on... but I choose not to, really anything shorter of a post wouldnt get my point across.

How does one say they Like or Hate something/someone and then explain it in less than sentence?

Would a post saying I hate LeBron because hes arrogant mean much to you? No, so I explain.... Oh wait, is this an essay too... Get over it. A true logical sports argument or debate or talk is done with detail. Not quick to the point statements.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 10:54 AM
Heres a better way to explain it without sounding whiney.

LeBron is an arrogant, immature athlete. I am not jealous of his skill, nor am I amazed at it. I respect hard work over talent anyday of the week. There are hundreds of reasons I have come to this and I would not want James on my team.

Better? Yes... except then I get replies saying SHOW ME PROOF, how can you say that? Oh so you know how LeBron acts behind closed doors.

But I wont go into it again. at least into this thread. You go ahead and love the guy, look up to him as a god amongst men, he is nothing special to me.

truther
11-17-2011, 11:50 AM
maybe you shouldnt treat your opinions as facts, i dont really care for the reasons why you hate someone you never met and know nothing about. thats your problem.

i personally dont give a **** whether lebron is arrogant or a douche, all i care about is him as a basketball player, i believe hes going to go down as one of the greatest players of all time.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 12:53 PM
The thing is Nike cashed in 90M before LeBron entered the league, let alone won anything.
The thing is, Nike did the same for MJ, only difference (save for proportions) is that Nike took an even greater risk with MJ because they were a small time company back then, and there was no precedence set.


It is just hard to see anyone not giving him endorsements. He is the second biggest draw and icon in the league so people would be dumb not to pay him and then use his image for their own gain, no matter how you personally feel about him. I think he wants to win because it is a necessity to get the result he desires most admittedly.
I didnt mean to imply he would lose everything, only that winning influences his brand appeal.


I think LeBron loves the game, works hard, it just isn't his world so to speak. Nothing wrong with that for him or for Shaq, unless if it interferes with how he plays and is available on the court like with Shaq who had his priorities called out. So far it hasn't hurt his team, but I just think he could be so much better if he filled in some holes. I'm not saying master your foot work, being off the ball, or playing in the post overnight, just find a way to do a little bit of all three every night consistently and build on it every year.

Well first of all the position and the amount of physical punishment the 2 endure is not the same so how he treats his mind and body is not comparable. Bron could become a Kobe like hard worker and I would still consider him lucky if he could match Shaq's career worth. And what your asking for hes already done, you just want it to progress at a faster rate. But its not like hes only been working out in the gym, in fact its funny you mention it because according to Bron lifting weights didnt become a serious part of his training regimen until later in his career. So if he wasnt lifting weights and isnt improving his game (According to you), how exactly is he getting this good? Solely by sitting on his *** with only game time as his only experience?


As for the high school names I used for the miles argument, I chose them because they were the guys to come out and become superstars and household names like LeBron.
So were Moses/Kobe


Like LeBron their age is still young, but they have miles on the, of veterans. LeBron has the miles on him of a vet unlike the average joe in the league at his age, and he also has the fact he carries a lot of literal weight on his frame which catches up with you later on.
Agreed, just making sure you understand its a tricky subject. When people speak about giving him time its not just physical, its mental. He may have had 8 years in the league but those 8 years came with a less prepared mind.

I dont know how the balance works but we both know there is a difference when comparing an 18 year old rookie to a 22 year old rookie. In terms of mileage they may be identical but in terms of preparation they are not.

I agree Bron doesnt have as long as people who are stuck into the old ways think he does. Mileage is more important but age is still relevant.




kazaam! was obviously shaq's first priority..
Thats what the critics said even when Shaq was working hard on his game.


His postseason numbers aren't even bad.. 23.7 8.4 5.9
his game has evolved
Those are 3 #'s.



He got better at doing what he already did well dating back to high school. Bulldoze people on the way to the rim for dunks, be streaky from 3, draw free throws, rebound, pass, and block shots. He just made his niche stronger as his athletic ability peaked and progressed.
His shooting, post, off the ball play have all improved, just not at a rate you prefer. That these things improved have to do with his improving IQ, skillset along with him realizing his athletic abilities.


Shaq did the same exact things. He was already good at getting position, he just got better as he entered his peak those 3 peat years. He was already good at powering through contact, he just got better and smashed it harder against contact. He was always a natural passer who just got better at hitting shooters. Shaq was good at all of that at LSU and when he peaked those skills were maxed out, but he still couldn't defend pick and rolls well, rebound well night in and night out, block multiple shots nightly, or make free throws consistently.

Totally and utterly false, rookie Shaq was completely different from even year 2 Shaq, rookie Shaq couldnt handle double teams very well. I will admit him not being able to throw those elbows around probably had something to do with it, but its fair to say how he read defenses went from good to elite in LA. I dont know how you evaluate footwork, its true Shaq has always had good footwork but depending on his frame he has had to use his body in different ways. Younger Shaq had more range and his footwork would be applied in more slashing attempts, as he got bigger he really began to master the drop-steps and counters.

Still the fact that he was good at ALL these things before entering the league is somehow a negative? Its as if he would get more credit if he was less of a prodigy, if had more holes in his game coming in like Kobe did and worked on them in the NBA, then you would give him credit? Why not credit him for being a superior passer from the get go?

Every player has flaws, and no player ever perfects them all, god knows Kobe hasnt. So what exactly is the point here? If its that he hasnt developed his post/in between game (not midrange) as well as Kobe then so be it, if its that he doesnt work as hard as Kobe, so what lots of superior players havent worked as hard as Kobe.


But his foot work, ability to be off the ball, and post moves/game were not there dating back to high school. 8 years later people are still saying he will get to that.
It doesnt mean he hasnt improved upon that part of his game, he really has in the last 3 years. The reason people dont realize how much Bron has improved, is because hes probably trying to improve at more than just 1 area of his game. This slow gradual growth is hard to notice as opposed to a poor 3pt shooter becoming a decent one like Rose did.


He always was streaky as a shooter, but now can sustain the streaks longer.
LOL again a sign of an improving jumpshot.


He was always a great rebounder for his position but can now rebound better.
Players rarely improve on this skillset, its why rebound rate translates well across all leagues/era's. Your basically as good as your going to get on that end.


He always could pass just now he can with more umph and flash. And we all know what he can do if he lowers a shoulder and drives.

This is like saying Kobe could always shoot FT's, could always score. BTW, his passing improved but according to him it was due to lasik eye surgery.


Shaq didn't have the ability to hit free throws, defend pick and rolls, swat a lot of shots, or kill you on the glass nightly at LSU.
I dont believe a word your saying and I highly doubt you saw young LSU Shaq regularly enough to compare him to even Orlando Shaq. Sounds more like your taking the later years where his diminishing mobility allowed his PnR defense to suffer and extrapolating throughout his entire career.

It wasnt a problem in his youth. He wasnt a dominant defender so you could still argue he could have done better just as I can argue every other player in existence should have done something better, but saying he couldnt defend PnR or swat shots sounds like BS. For one, his mere presence prevented people from coming into the lane so if your comparing his shot blocking ability that has to be noted. Alot of great shot blockers dont have that interior presence so his lack of shot blocking can be ignored. However if your comparing him to Hakeem or someone who was great in every aspect of D, then yes, Shaq falls short.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 01:01 PM
That's what I'm saying, he's never needed to add off the ball skills to be successful, the true way to judge how hard he is willing to work is if he develops off ball skills and a post game now that they are needed

Dont make excuses when none need apply. If what you were saying were true then I would still think less of LeBron. You ALWAYS need to develop these skills, it gives your teams more options. He just hasnt developed them at a rate some would like. Which is totally their prerogative.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:01 PM
My opinion on someone is always based off someones decision. And not just the decision, by how they go about that decision and multiple decisions.

His decision to leave Cavs, okay whatever. His decision to go on ESPN to inform the world that he is leaving for South beach... a little snotty? Media whore. His decision to leave for a team THAT had just signed two other big time agents... homer much? His decision to go on stage with only two other Miami palyers (not the entire team) to unveil their trio... to state they will win not 6 not 7... etc etc... a lil arrogant huh?

My opinion of the guy is based of fact.

You may not understand it yet, or never will, but your character has a lot to do with who you are and has a lot to do with your success as an individual no matter what sport you play your job you have.

Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Chambs, Kareem... These guys are legends for a reason, they worked hard at what they do. They made sure at the end of the day, they were the player working the hardest or today was a failure.

Its beyond the stats and the awards and the achievements. When I look at these players, I see the will to fight.

James has the most athleticism in the game today, maybe of any athlete. Except, your skill and talent DO NOT MATTER when you do not apply the most to it. Like Shaq stated in his book and others have said about him... LeBron does not have Basketball has his main priority at all times.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 01:03 PM
His jumper is not reliable. Even casual NBA fans will state that the jumpshot is a weakness in Lebron's game.
LMFAO, and thats suppose to help your argument? So the guy who has no basis for comparison and doesnt even watch enough games to make his subjective opinion count, that guy is suppose to sway people?


Its not something he can rely on to win games. Youre a super LBJ fan so you might disagree, but looking at it objectively, LBJ does not have a great jumper.
Show me this OBJECTIVE evidence

smith&wesson
11-17-2011, 01:20 PM
at least he showing love to kobe

Chronz
11-17-2011, 01:24 PM
Jordan, , Magic, Bird, Chambs, Kareem... These guys are legends for a reason, they worked hard at what they do. They made sure at the end of the day, they were the player working the hardest or today was a failure.
Those players arent perfect either, they worked hard at certain things other worked hard at others. Like Larry Bird is a hard worker but he never worked hard on his body until it was too late. Why no mention of that? In my book is because no player is perfect so attempting to judge a player by a standard that cant be achieved is foolish. MJ/KAJ/Wilt are my personal 3 when it comes to achieving near perfection, MJ being #1. So yes Bron probably does fall short compared to most of the guys you listed, but what I want to know is, where is the cutoff? What makes you list those guys, why is Bron not in their league in terms of work ethic/character?


James has the most athleticism in the game today, maybe of any athlete. Except, your skill and talent DO NOT MATTER when you do not apply the most to it. Like Shaq stated in his book and others have said about him... LeBron does not have Basketball has his main priority at all times.

Where does Shaq state this? I thought he said he has more on his table, just like he did. I dont see where he states its not his MAIN priority, just that its not his sole priority. Which given his abilities is impressive, it may not be what you value but there is worth in it for others. Just as others dont care for things you value, personally I honestly dont care about expectations, potential. I may have them, but if players dont reach them I dont hold it against them.

If you gave me the decision between choosing the hard worker or the superior player, I will go for the latter every time. So all I care about are results, I could give 2 ***** if you accomplished this by being a freak of nature who never worked on his game one bit or if you were the 5"10 SG who made every perimeter shot.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:26 PM
How can I say this? He works out, he obviously trains. But its near the bare minimum at most times of the year.

When I talk about work ethic, I talk about Jordan and Kobe. Guys you will hear that work on their game 24/7. Players/owners/coaches are in love or truly respect their work ethic. For gods sake, Spike Lee did an entire documentary on Kobes work ethic and game situations.

When James is mentioned in work ethic, owners/coaches/teammates/players will say hes doing the bare minimum, hes getting away with stuff other players couldnt.

So its obviously a difference in work ethic. And work ethic can not only improve you as an individual but inspire your team and improve your club as a whole.

So thats where it differs.
Shaq, Coach K, team USA staff... talks about how hes been late to some meetings and film meetings. Kobe is said by coaches, teammates and opponents and analsysts to being in love with stuff like that. He loves to be the first one their, he loves to learn more and practice on his game. His body and his mind.

Though superstars like Jordan and Kobe have been known to be immature or obnoxious at times, early in their career, they were never thought to be lazy or not give 100% to their careers.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:29 PM
Larry Bird didnt work on his body? He won enough rings and did enough for his team to prove he was in the best shape.

He hustled at every instant of his career. There was never an instant anyone could say Larry bird didnt put enough into that series or into that year.

Not everything has to be compared to how big and powerful you are. Larry Bird was in shape, he worked on his game so much. When college players started to cover his strong hand shooting side, he worked on his weak side and started to score points off both at any range.

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:31 PM
I understand what you mean with the cutoff, but cmon... I can go on and on.

I am not trying to say LeBron is bad. I am saying he needs to be willing to work harder,m but he simply doesnt have it. I respect those who fight for it, not those who have the skill and work off that. Obviously he is working out and training, but where is that cutoff?

You can see hes obviously not putting ALL he can into his game. Its like WWE with James. He wants to make an entrance, wants to make the good headlines. Winning is in his head, but how bad does he want it?

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:36 PM
If you gave me the decision between choosing the hard worker or the superior player, I will go for the latter every time. So all I care about are results, I could give 2 ***** if you accomplished this by being a freak of nature who never worked on his game one bit or if you were the 5"10 SG who made every perimeter shot.

If you read the previous thread... their was one which stated that when Shaq played with James in Cle. Things came easy for James. He was given a shortcuts and allowed to get away with a whole lot of stuff because the Cavs were trying to do whatever they can to keep their most prized possession.

Brown would talk about how Shaq did something wrong in the film room. Then in the film it would show LeBron blowing a defensive assignment. Brown skipped over it. Then another player was critiqued on his play. So he stood up and said this is unfair! You cant just skip players like that because hes an all star. Brown gave them a face of dissapointment, realzing he was right but there was nothing he could do. The owners gave him no choice...


That is what shaq said in his book, paraphrased. Look it up, there was a thread about it earlier

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 01:47 PM
I am done with this...

We should all understand this,
Like every other athlete in the world, James has some issues in his game he needs to work on. Except when I look at a player of his skill and caliber, I am not amazed. A player of his caliber could be so much more if he applied himself MORE. But he doesnt. It took a while for me to realize it, but I started to realize when he was on the Cavs that it looked like he was spending more time trying to plan out the teams/his entrance than actually preparing for the game at hand.

I am sure its not exactly true, but things have been said and done that we all know about. Coach K, Shaq, teammates, owners and others have come out and said it in their own way. His own actions have made me also believe this for a long time now. (For example, rock concert to showcase him and his friends of the new Miami team). TOO ME, it seems he does not take basketball, his career, as his main priority. At least not at the majority of the year or season.

You can believe what you want, but I refuse to root for his type of character.

Only if James can realize that basketball is not just a business, its a game. Its a sport and you need to be the best you can be. He says he wants it, but how bad does he want it. I believe he doesnt want it as bad as he thinks he does. He should be at every meeting and practice as the first one in and last one out. He should be constantly working on his game, sadly I dont see it yet. He has time to change but as the years go by. I see him getting worse.

Sorry, I do not love the guy for his athleticism alone. I respect that of a hard worker. I look to see my players being more like Kobe and less like James. Why? Because of what he does. First one in practice, last one out. (dont take me literal, I am sure he isnt always the first or last but its the consistency and how others see him as because of his decisions). Hes always talking to teammates privately about how they can improve with a lil change in their game.

Always studying his opponents and the game. Watching film, talking and playing against other players (like Duncan) to learn more. Not just to beat them.

Idk, what can i say? Am i wrong? Its the same reason why I respect Tebow and think he will do great. Its the work ethic, doing all you can to be abetter you. James just doesnt do it for me


For me its like looking at a hot women, being like Dam. But talking to her and realizing shes dumb or arrogant or has her nose up in the clouds. Appearance is only a part of the final product

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:16 PM
If you read the previous thread... their was one which stated that when Shaq played with James in Cle. Things came easy for James. He was given a shortcuts and allowed to get away with a whole lot of stuff because the Cavs were trying to do whatever they can to keep their most prized possession.

Brown would talk about how Shaq did something wrong in the film room. Then in the film it would show LeBron blowing a defensive assignment. Brown skipped over it. Then another player was critiqued on his play. So he stood up and said this is unfair! You cant just skip players like that because hes an all star. Brown gave them a face of dissapointment, realzing he was right but there was nothing he could do. The owners gave him no choice...


That is what shaq said in his book, paraphrased. Look it up, there was a thread about it earlier
What does that have to do with the paragraph you quoted? What you paraphrased is definitely what I recalled reading and definitely not what you were alluding to.

Again, there is a difference between something being a main priority and not just the sole priority. No where in that excerpt does he state basketball isnt a main priority, only that (like shaq) it wasnt their SOLE priority.

As for that film session, what exactly are you attempting to extrapolate from that? The way I see it, Bron is one of the greatest team defenders at his position, the amount of ground he covers and still keeps his man in check is something few players can replicate, even fewer are those with the willingness to do so. So in terms of defensive effort, him not getting flack for a missed rotation from a single film session based on Shaq's recollection is a joke.

Whatever you want to take out of that instance, it pales in comparison to the amount work he puts in defensively. Quite simply, no one on his team has ever worked as hard as he does on both ends, I would love to have seen how that moment played out, I cant imagine it ended with Bron not saying anything.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:23 PM
I understand what you mean with the cutoff, but cmon... I can go on and on.
I dont think you understand my point, no doubt that list could go on, my point is that it would be filled with inconsistencies, which is why I was wondering how you even come about a cutoff?


I am not trying to say LeBron is bad.
Can you please spare me the strawman arguments, I never understood why people do this, nobody ever said you said that, only a ****** would think Bron is a bad player, and nobody here is that ********. Therefore this does not constitute an argument.


I am saying he needs to be willing to work harder,m but he simply doesnt have it. I respect those who fight for it, not those who have the skill and work off that. Obviously he is working out and training, but where is that cutoff?
What gives you the right though? By definition many of those players you listed werent willing to work harder, because they ALL had shortcomings. Bird didnt start working on his body until it was too late, wouldnt this be a sign of someone not willing to work harder? Thats my point, your holding Bron to a standard you wouldnt know a thing about because your not following these guys around. Which is why I try to stay away from that aspect of a players career and focus entirely on his accomplishments. No matter what, every player could have done something better.


You can see hes obviously not putting ALL he can into his game. Its like WWE with James. He wants to make an entrance, wants to make the good headlines. Winning is in his head, but how bad does he want it?

Its not so obvious to me, only thing obvious to me is that whatever it is your seeing is in your head. This gold standard doesnt exist

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:31 PM
How can I say this? He works out, he obviously trains. But its near the bare minimum at most times of the year.
I dont believe you, you have no way of knowing what he does in his off time, you dont know how hard he works on his game. You only have a few snippets of information that when pieced together can hint at something, but certainly not enough to be able to claim its the "bare minimum".


When I talk about work ethic, I talk about Jordan and . Guys you will hear that work on their game 24/7. Players/owners/coaches are in love or truly respect their work ethic. For gods sake, Spike Lee did an entire documentary on Kobes work ethic and game situations.
When James is mentioned in work ethic, owners/coaches/teammates/players will say hes doing the bare minimum, hes getting away with stuff other players couldnt.

When you talk about work ethic you have very little to base it on.


Shaq, Coach K, team USA staff... talks about how hes been late to some meetings and film meetings. Kobe is said by coaches, teammates and opponents and analsysts to being in love with stuff like that. He loves to be the first one their, he loves to learn more and practice on his game. His body and his mind.

Yes Kobe is a harder worker, that much is sure. Im not seeing how all the players you listed fall into that category nor would it prevent Bron from being the superior player.


Though superstars like Jordan and Kobe have been known to be immature or obnoxious at times, early in their career, they were never thought to be lazy or not give 100% to their careers.

This may be important to you, but for someone who only values the end result of whatever amount of work that player does put in, it is truly irrelevant. Again, you can be the hardest worker, Ill always take the guy who makes the game look easy.

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 02:34 PM
End result is getting a championship ring to your team. Kobe and Jordan has done that.. Numerous times.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:38 PM
Larry Bird didnt work on his body?
What are you asking here?


He won enough rings and did enough for his team to prove he was in the best shape.

LMFAO, so all Bron has to do is win chips and this takes away all of your prior complaints? Now your argument is really falling apart.


He hustled at every instant of his career. There was never an instant anyone could say Larry bird didnt put enough into that series or into that year.
We can agree to disagree on this matter because from various sources I recall Bird came back one year noticeably more athletic than he had been in years, so much so that in his first preseason game he shocked an entire Boston crowd with a dunk few thought he had in him. Afterwards he credited it to his new off-season regimen. To this day Bill Simmons wonders what Bird could have been had taken care of his body before it was too late.


Not everything has to be compared to how big and powerful you are. Larry Bird was in shape, he worked on his game so much. When college players started to cover his strong hand shooting side, he worked on his weak side and started to score points off both at any range.

Everything? When discussing work ethic and character, it factors in. PERIOD. Bron works on his game too, he works on his body (Im guessing here), but he has a problem with professionalism. Like I said, how would you even make a cutoff when different people favor different aspects of their work ethic?

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:42 PM
I am done with this...

We should all understand this,
Like every other athlete in the world, James has some issues in his game he needs to work on. Except when I look at a player of his skill and caliber, I am not amazed.
We should all understand your point of view? OK well I understand your opinion, my opinion (that you should understand) is that I dont care. I only care about the end result, not how much work it took for you to get there.


A player of his caliber could be so much more if he applied himself MORE. But he doesnt. It took a while for me to realize it, but I started to realize when he was on the Cavs that it looked like he was spending more time trying to plan out the teams/his entrance than actually preparing for the game at hand.

Considering you have no way of knowing how Bron prepares for the game at hand this is even less relevant than your prior complaint.


I am sure its not exactly true, but things have been said and done that we all know about. Coach K, Shaq, teammates, owners and others have come out and said it in their own way. His own actions have made me also believe this for a long time now. (For example, rock concert to showcase him and his friends of the new Miami team). TOO ME, it seems he does not take basketball, his career, as his main priority. At least not at the majority of the year or season.
You can believe what you want, but I refuse to root for his type of character.

Yes, we can all have opinions. Totally your right as a fan.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 02:45 PM
End result is getting a championship ring to your team. Kobe and Jordan has done that.. Numerous times.

Agreed. That is the optimal team result.

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 02:48 PM
Agreed. That is the optimal team result.

Again, great players make GOOD teams great.

koberulesall
11-17-2011, 03:10 PM
How long you wait till Jordan win first ring??? just askin


Lebron isnt Jordan and never will be

beliges
11-17-2011, 03:51 PM
Agreed. That is the optimal team result.

Individual statistics is also a team result. A player's PPG or RPG or APG is a team result. But without great individual play, a "team" does not win titles. Great players find ways to win championships. The top players of all time are all guys with championships. They all found ways to win.

Sactown
11-17-2011, 04:02 PM
Individual statistics is also a team result. A player's PPG or RPG or APG is a team result. But without great individual play, a "team" does not win titles. Great players find ways to win championships. The top players of all time are all guys with championships. They all found ways to win.

Yes, and when it's all said and done, Lebron will have found a way I'm sure..

Chronz
11-17-2011, 04:13 PM
Again, great players make GOOD teams great.
Yep, but no 1 player transforms another. Good to be agreeing with you for once.

nickdymez
11-17-2011, 04:19 PM
Yep, but no 1 player transforms another. Good to be agreeing with you for once.

Exactly. Its the right mixture of personalities coming together. Everyone has to have that winning formula. Look at all the recent championship teams. Look at the make-up. In the last 8 years, i think these Lakers teams were the least motivated Championship teams. But i do agree with you. Im not here to just argue with people, i enjoy a good debate.

Chronz
11-17-2011, 04:25 PM
Individual statistics is also a team result.
Far more the doing of the individual in this comparison.


A player's PPG or RPG or APG is a team result.
Not sure what your trying to get at, those stats are a result of a variety of things, most of which have to do with the individual.


But without great individual play, a "team" does not win titles.
Obviously if they won the title quite a few players would have to have played great.


Great players find ways to win championships. The top players of all time are all guys with championships. They all found ways to win.
I agree championships are a prerequisite for ultimate greatness, the standard MJ has set is such that it takes both individual and team dominance to even have a shot at his tier.
But we do not live life in a vacuum where each and every circumstance is comparable, I try to measure players by what they get out of their situation.

Because although you can claim great players find ways to win championships, there have ALSO been LESSER players to win championships. For example, Elvin Hayes has a title but only someone who thinks the equation for greatness is as simple as rings+all-star stats would think he was a greater player than Charles Barkley or Karl Malone.

I can only speculate but Im fairly certain Elvin couldnt have won a title in MJ's era and Im pretty sure either Malone/Charles could have won a chip playing with his supporting cast in their era.

Sactown
11-17-2011, 04:43 PM
Championship teams aren't just teams with great players, but teams with great balance..

mlisica19
11-17-2011, 04:45 PM
You act like LeBrons world is entirely closed off. He practically lets us into his life on a regular basis, teammates and owners have said multiple things on or about LeBron James. We are not discussing some private CEO, we are talking about one athlete who loves the media attention.

My opinion that LeBron does not make basketball his "sole" or "main" priority is just that of an opinion. We can look at the stats and the resume and the award and etc etc but at the end of the day we have to look into ourselves to find the answer.

So when someone asks me, would I really not want LeBron James on my team... its true, because from everything Ive seen myself... he isnt the type of leader or player I want on my team.

So you will ask me why... and I can go on and on about the things he has done that has proven to me that he isnt ready to make winning his SOLE priority.

Of course the PRO athlete works out. I bet he works out 6x a week for a few hours at a time. But working out is only a part of your game. Attending mandatory film or meetings and practices isnt everything. My leader, my franchise leader, my roster should be filled with players who are willing to give it their all. And James has not proved to me yet that he willing to do it all.

The things Shaq said in his book, are not by any means a compliment to James. Saying hes been given a free ride with the Cavs, saying he isnt a scientific work dog. Saying hes got other things on his mind... Thats bogus, basketball is your job. You can do two things with it.

Give it your all, or just play second fiddle and do the bare minimum.

mjt20mik
11-17-2011, 04:57 PM
Championship teams aren't just teams with great players, but teams with great balance..

great quote

Chronz
11-17-2011, 05:18 PM
You act like LeBrons world is entirely closed off. He practically lets us into his life on a regular basis, teammates and owners have said multiple things on or about LeBron James. We are not discussing some private CEO, we are talking about one athlete who loves the media attention.
My claim is more that the portion of his world that he lets you see is minuscule when compared to the time he has to himself. And in order to have a basis for comparison you need more than a pool of a few players who let you see some of their life.


My opinion that LeBron does not make basketball his "sole" or "main" priority is just that of an opinion.
Except that you alluded to it also being Shaq's opinion, which wasnt true.


Of course the PRO athlete works out. I bet he works out 6x a week for a few hours at a time.
LOL speaking as if it was a given, so what then do you make of him admitting he never really seriously worked out earlier in his career? That he only began lifting weights like a PRO a few years into the league. Can you elaborate on when he decided to start working out since you seem to know these players so well? Of course not but the point your getting to (that its more than just working out) is the point Ive already made. There are ALOT of factors that go into ones work ethic. This diversity is what makes the idea of your list so ridiculous.


But working out is only a part of your game. Attending mandatory film or meetings and practices isnt everything. My leader, my franchise leader, my roster should be filled with players who are willing to give it their all. And James has not proved to me yet that he willing to do it all.

Thats because your not around for him to prove it to you. You only go off of a few snippets here and there and compare him (highly subjectively I might add) to a group of other players you also know very little about.


The things Shaq said in his book, are not by any means a compliment to James. Saying hes been given a free ride with the Cavs, saying he isnt a scientific work dog. Saying hes got other things on his mind... Thats bogus, basketball is your job. You can do two things with it.

In Shaq's own words he openly compares himself to Bron in their approach. You think hes damning himself? Its not a compliment but its not an omission of great work ethic either.


Give it your all, or just play second fiddle and do the bare minimum.
Anyone who deals in absolutes doesnt live in reality. There is a middle ground. There is alot in between going all out and bare minimum. Brons strikes me as someone with great work ethic, just not Kobe Bryant great. Which is fine, he doesnt need his work ethic to end up the superior player.

beliges
11-17-2011, 07:51 PM
Championship teams aren't just teams with great players, but teams with great balance..

Great players know how to make team's balanced. Great player know how to manage their teammates and put them in the best position to succeed. Great players win championships. The best of the best in the NBA have all won titles. Its just how it is. Thats what separates basketball from other team sports. In basketball, ONE individual can have a much bigger impact on the outcome of the game than in any other team sport. True, championship teams need talent and balance, but a team with talent and balance is nothing without a go to guy. Its a combination of both. Its not just a team accomplishment because the individual will always carry a team. But just like any other individual accomplishment, its all a team accomplishment. The PPG a player averages or the APG they average is based on how the team performs. Its all a team accomplishment but the greats always win.