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daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:21 PM
available courtesy of USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf

take a look and discuss...

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:23 PM
First major thing I found:


Salary Cap and Tax levels set in relation to the projected escrow level
(escrow level equals 50% of BRI, less Benefits, divided by 30) in same
proportions as under the 2005 CBA. Salary Cap and Tax levels in years
1 and 2 to be no less than their 2010-11 levels.

So cap/tax levels will be the same or more as they were last year for years 1 and 2... That is MAJOR!

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:25 PM
More key information:

In years 1 and 2, Tax rate for teams with team salary above Tax level is
$1-for-$1 (same as 2005 CBA).


Beginning in year 3, Tax rates for teams with team salary above Tax level
are as follows: Tax rates increase by $0.50 for each additional $5M above the Tax level (e.g., for team salary $20M-25M above the Tax level, the Tax rate is $3.75-for-$1). Tax rates for teams that are taxpayers in at least 4 out of any 5 seasons (starting in 2011-12) increase by $1 at each increment (e.g., for team salary $5M-$10M above the Tax level, the Tax rate for a repeat taxpayer is $2.75-for-$1 instead of $1.75-for-$1).

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:27 PM
Okay I have read the whole deal and it looks good. Everything remains nearly the same for the next two years... and then some stricter rules come into player after that. And the players have an opt out after 6 years if they don't like it.

This HAS to be accepted.

jetsfan28
11-13-2011, 08:30 PM
If I'm the players, I accept it. But I think about it for quite a bit first. I honestly don't think the league has negotiated the whole time in good faith (why did this offer take so long, why are they leaking rumors of player dissent, and why are 13 owners trying to lower the players' split to a ridiculous 47 percent, that is not in good faith). If they decertify and sue, I have no idea if they win, but I think they'd have a chance and I think they might get a better deal if owners get scared of that possibility.



The offers before this were horrendous, some of them insultingly bad. This one still isn't good, although it's probably good enough. If I'm a player I consider suing.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:31 PM
Read the full PDF... the deal actually looks pretty fair to me. I'm not sure a better deal is out there...

only thing still iffy is the excessive lux tax...

GoPacers33
11-13-2011, 08:33 PM
Why did they let this out to the public?

jetsfan28
11-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Read the full PDF... the deal actually looks pretty fair to me. I'm not sure a better deal is out there...

only thing still iffy is the excessive lux tax...

It's fair, but if I remember correctly, I believe the league is supposed to negotiate in good faith the whole time, not just the last offer. And this offer, while much better, is still below what I think the split should have been. I guess it's a question of whether what the owners did before this offer could be considered as not in good faith. I think it might be.

beasted86
11-13-2011, 08:35 PM
I don't see the players accepting this deal because of the raises, limits on mid-level to tax team, and luxury tax penalties.

Especially the raises will be a big pill to swallow. It was previously 10.5% and 8%, and the numbers are now 6.5%, 3.5%, and 3%.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:36 PM
players have no leverage though... and the league moved farther than any of us actually expected them to move... haven't they?

gotoHcarolina52
11-13-2011, 08:37 PM
This is amazing. Great find, USA Today and Daleja.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:39 PM
credit to Chris Sheridan. He sent me the link.

gwrighter
11-13-2011, 08:44 PM
take the deal players. It can't get any better, especially if games are lost.

beasted86
11-13-2011, 08:47 PM
If I'm the players, I accept it. But I think about it for quite a bit first. I honestly don't think the league has negotiated the whole time in good faith (why did this offer take so long, why are they leaking rumors of player dissent, and why are 13 owners trying to lower the players' split to a ridiculous 47 percent, that is not in good faith). If they decertify and sue, I have no idea if they win, but I think they'd have a chance and I think they might get a better deal if owners get scared of that possibility.



The offers before this were horrendous, some of them insultingly bad. This one still isn't good, although it's probably good enough. If I'm a player I consider suing.

I think you are spot on.

I think if they do put the deal to an official vote it will be a lot closer than people think. Fans have this idea that 'players just want to play, they will take the deal' when it's pretty clear a lot of supposed middle and lower end players are the ones speaking out about their dislike for the proposal.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 08:49 PM
I just fail to see what about this deal is a killer... it looks like the league has move significantly towards the player's positions on almost every issue. If they are holding out for everything they are just as bad as the owners were a couple weeks ago. Negotiating is about taking something you can live with, even if you don't love it.

YoungOne
11-13-2011, 08:56 PM
I think I like most of this deal, I hope they accept it.

Dade County
11-13-2011, 08:56 PM
This deal looks to good to be true... Somethings fishy.

I just want the NBA season to start already, so I can fast forward to the playoffs; I wont be satisfied until the HEAT win it ALL!

beasted86
11-13-2011, 08:57 PM
I just fail to see what about this deal is a killer... it looks like the league has move significantly towards the player's positions on almost every issue. If they are holding out for everything they are just as bad as the owners were a couple weeks ago. Negotiating is about taking something you can live with, even if you don't love it.

Ignore the posturing by David Stern. A majority of owners L-O-V-E this deal.

With the BRI split, significantly lowered raises and 2 yr smaller contracts all around... and this is all before we started talking about revenue sharing? I find it hard to believe you can find more than 10 owners who dislike that offer.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 09:01 PM
but the owners were always going to win this CBA...

for a while it looked like it might be a route... league let up and gave the players a lot of what they were looking for... now the players have a system that is nearly the same as it was in the past.

players have to accept this defeat graciously and take the deal... it could be A LOT worse.

akesh99
11-13-2011, 09:03 PM
curious to hear what peoples thoughts are on the amnesty clause?

jetsfan28
11-13-2011, 09:16 PM
I just fail to see what about this deal is a killer... it looks like the league has move significantly towards the player's positions on almost every issue. If they are holding out for everything they are just as bad as the owners were a couple weeks ago. Negotiating is about taking something you can live with, even if you don't love it.

No it's not. It's about getting the best deal you can get. There's no single thing about this deal that is a killer, it's just not a very good deal. They should be getting more than 50/50, and without getting more with that they should be getting more in system issues. And their possible leverage is the decertification. Notice when the owners' offer got better. It was when the threat of decertifying became real. Even the NFL owners, who negotiated in much better faith than the NBA owners, didn't make a ton of progress until the NFLPA decertified. The owners just might be legitimately scared of that for a reason, and that reason might be that they'll lose in a lawsuit.

ink
11-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Why did they let this out to the public?

To make it clear to the public that it is a fair deal. In fact, it's a deal that doesn't go nearly far enough but it's all they could accomplish.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Again... how is the system really all that different? people are saying the system has to be right to take 50-50... well the system looks right.

The only thing that has really changed is that the tax got steeper...

daleja424
11-13-2011, 09:20 PM
I will not fight for the players just to do so. When I thought the players were right I fought hard for them... but now the owners have made the moves towards the players that I think needed to be made to get this done. Time to end this.

CeeDub15
11-13-2011, 09:20 PM
When could we hear the verdict on this? If they accept or not?

ink
11-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Ignore the posturing by David Stern. A majority of owners L-O-V-E this deal.

With the BRI split, significantly lowered raises and 2 yr smaller contracts all around... and this is all before we started talking about revenue sharing? I find it hard to believe you can find more than 10 owners who dislike that offer.

Highly doubtful. The cap system is still as flawed as ever. They are plugging their noses and passing it, just like the players have to do. It's nearly a status quo deal that accomplished little more than a reduction of BRI for the players.

jetsfan28
11-13-2011, 09:21 PM
curious to hear what peoples thoughts are on the amnesty clause?

It's dumb. How does it make sense, when you're making a deal that basically just protects you from yourself because you're terrible in management, to then pay people to do absolutely nothing? And how does it make sense, when you claim to be trying to get competitive balance, to add a clause that hurts small market teams in OKC, Chicago (not small market, but not big either), Houston, Memphis, Minnesota, New Orleans, and Sacramento, among others, while tremendously helping the Lakers, Heat (even cutting someone like House helps them), and Nets (someone who will soon be a big market team)?

ink
11-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Again... how is the system really all that different? people are saying the system has to be right to take 50-50... well the system looks right.

The only thing that has really changed is that the tax got steeper...

Almost no system innovation or change, just amendments. Yep, the system isn't really that different at all.

daleja424
11-13-2011, 10:00 PM
and the players should take that and run!

Nyc4You
11-13-2011, 10:01 PM
and the players should take that and run!

Any word on what the majority of the players think of this deal?

daleja424
11-13-2011, 10:02 PM
who knows... but right now idiocy is being the loudest. I can't imagine any of these players spouting off about how bad this deal is has actually read it.

Nyc4You
11-13-2011, 10:03 PM
who knows... but right now idiocy is being the loudest. I can't imagine any of these players spouting off about how bad this deal is has actually read it.

is this the new proposal? like was it just proposed recently? by recently i mean today lol

Nyc4You
11-13-2011, 10:05 PM
nvm found it.

arkanian215
11-13-2011, 10:08 PM
Tiered tax system + $3 million total that can be sent annually in trades. That looks like they're trying to limit the influence of the Cubans of the NBA.

ink
11-13-2011, 10:12 PM
who knows... but right now idiocy is being the loudest. I can't imagine any of these players spouting off about how bad this deal is has actually read it.

That's the problem. The reps and the union have done a really poor job (some think intentional) of spreading information. So we won't know until the vote whether the players actually know anything about the deal.

Maybe that's why Stern released the deal. That way at least the players will get to see what they're voting on. lol.

Red222
11-13-2011, 10:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4zaisIRxQ&feature=channel_video_titlethe details proposal on youtube

Cosmic_Canon
11-13-2011, 10:15 PM
Okay I have read the whole deal and it looks good. Everything remains nearly the same for the next two years... and then some stricter rules come into player after that. And the players have an opt out after 6 years if they don't like it.

This HAS to be accepted.

I don't feel like reading the whole deal, but looking at the quotes, it seems fair aside from the pay cut. Yes, the new tax laws will punish teams over the cap tremendously, but it's trying to get owners to spend more conservatively.

Tony_Starks
11-13-2011, 10:19 PM
Good looking out with this info sir!

I believe this is as good a deal as they will offer but at the same time I see why the players still are hesitant to sign off. A few things that caught my eye were no S & T for tax payers, reducing 1st round picks salaries by 12%, no picking up of amnesty players by tax payers, and no more sign and extends i.e. the Melo rule. Salary wise the main ones that will feel this are the middle tier players and the rookies, and that sucks.

The tax rate gets pretty astronomical as well but what can I say, thats pretty much where the "save the owners from themselves" logic comes in to play. Im also of the belief the big boys have a wink wink deal from the nba that they are still going to keep the lions share of their profits thus no specifics on profit sharing.

All in all I pretty much agree with what Billy said its not the greatest deal in the world but at a certain point I think they need to get over having their feelings hurt by the ultimatum shenanigans and threats and just take that L so they can get back to business......

likemystylez
11-13-2011, 10:20 PM
Any word on what the majority of the players think of this deal?

the majority of players are probably annoyed enough that they would sign almost anything at this point. Unfortunately the team reps might be a slightly tuffer sell, but nothing in this proposal looks horrible (considering how negotiations have been going all along)

NY007
11-13-2011, 10:27 PM
When are the players expected to answer?

daleja424
11-13-2011, 10:28 PM
alternate link (with other proposals as well):
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/14/sports/basketball/20111114-nba-proposals.html?src=tp

Nyc4You
11-13-2011, 10:31 PM
if the players don't accept this.. idk what i'll do lol

daleja424
11-13-2011, 10:39 PM
I just think it is a huge win for players that league isn't lowering cap/tax this year or next... simply freezing them at current level until revenue catches up.

That is BIG!

daleja424
11-13-2011, 10:40 PM
given that most of the deal doesn't kick in until year 3 anyways... the players are only looking at 4 years with this new deal before they can opt out again if it isn't working.

LA_Raiders
11-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Players need to take this deal. They are hurting the sport with their greed...

gotoHcarolina52
11-13-2011, 10:51 PM
It's time to roll out the fountain pens.

Tony_Starks
11-13-2011, 10:51 PM
I just think it is a huge win for players that league isn't lowering cap/tax this year or next... simply freezing them at current level until revenue catches up.

That is BIG!


Yeah our superstars are pretty much set. I bet the next generation of stars is going to look back to the era before this deal was made and say "those lucky bastards!"

daleja424
11-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Players need to take this deal. They are hurting the sport with their greed...

that is too far... the players have made all the concessions here... no doubt...and the league is winning this by a lot.

29$JerZ
11-13-2011, 11:10 PM
My only complaint is the harsh penalty for going over the Cap after 15 million

Them essentially keeping the system the same for the next 2 years definetely helps the Knicks. Gives us a chance to trade for a 3rd star before year 3 when it becomes impossible.

I really want to see who teams use their Amnesty on. Miami, NY, Chicago and LA are going to get some amazing opportunities given their CAP problems; especially NY and Chicago

29$JerZ
11-13-2011, 11:12 PM
that is too far... the players have made all the concessions here... no doubt...and the league is winning this by a lot.

Yeah you can telby reading this owners are getting protected from themselves while the players lose out but it was going to happen eventually. If anything positive can happen from this lockout it's the end of the next Eddy Curry, Gilbert Arenas and Jared Jeffries signings.

specialiststeve
11-14-2011, 12:05 AM
Looks pretty good overall. Only thing that hasn't been brought up that I saw is it sounds as if the "sign and trade" is about gone. Tax system is good as what the heck is a cap for if there is not deterent to keeping it.

Chronz
11-14-2011, 12:37 AM
Sounds fair to me

Dade County
11-14-2011, 12:48 AM
I need confirmation that Amnesty players can't resign with their teams... Thank you.

edit:

14. Amnesty
• Each team permitted to waive 1 player prior to any season of the CBA
(only for contracts in place at the inception of the CBA) and have 100% of
the player’s salary removed from team salary for Cap and Tax purposes.
• Salary of amnestied players included for purposes of calculating players’
agreed-upon share of BRI.
• A modified waiver process would be utilized for players waived pursuant
to the Amnesty rule, under which teams with Room under the Cap could
submit competing offers to assume some but not all of the player’s
remaining contract. If a player’s contract is claimed in this manner, the
remaining portion of the player’s salary will continue to be paid by the
team that waived him.

Ok, so other teams can claim Amnesty players ...

Sactown
11-14-2011, 01:38 AM
I don't like how they can opt out after 6 years when it doesn't really take affect till year 3...

Tony_Starks
11-14-2011, 01:52 AM
I need confirmation that Amnesty players can't resign with their teams... Thank you.

edit:

14. Amnesty
• Each team permitted to waive 1 player prior to any season of the CBA
(only for contracts in place at the inception of the CBA) and have 100% of
the player’s salary removed from team salary for Cap and Tax purposes.
• Salary of amnestied players included for purposes of calculating players’
agreed-upon share of BRI.
• A modified waiver process would be utilized for players waived pursuant
to the Amnesty rule, under which teams with Room under the Cap could
submit competing offers to assume some but not all of the player’s
remaining contract. If a player’s contract is claimed in this manner, the
remaining portion of the player’s salary will continue to be paid by the
team that waived him.

Ok, so other teams can claim Amnesty players ...


Yeah but it looks like tax playing teams can't sign them, which kind of sucks.....

Sactown
11-14-2011, 02:05 AM
To make it clear to the public that it is a fair deal. In fact, it's a deal that doesn't go nearly far enough but it's all they could accomplish.

I agree..
This deal hardly affects players who signed large contracts over the past two years
IE Miami's big three won't have to face renewing contracts till 5 years from now and they can sign a one year contract and opt out of the next CBA deal after 6 years... now I understand why the BRI plays a large part in many of these players mind.. It might be the only thing affecting many contracts.. I don't like the idea of them only having the CBA for 6 years..

And the harsher tax penalties will only be in affect for 4 years.,.. they better not **** up the next CBA :facepalm:

Vincent33
11-14-2011, 02:06 AM
Not sure exactly what more the players are expecting from the owners, but this looks like as good as it will get and the deal seems fair.

If the players don't accept, they will be getting a large amount of blame for risking the loss of the season especially with the PDF copy of the proposal out in the public.

Take the deal and start the season already you greedy bastards!(**** you too owners....I hate both sides for dragging this out) You're still the highest paid athletes among the big 4 pro sports in the country.

bholly
11-14-2011, 03:59 AM
Yeah but it looks like tax playing teams can't sign them, which kind of sucks.....

It says they can't claim them under the waiver process, but I'm assuming if an amnestied player goes unclaimed then any team could sign them if they have enough room or an exception or whatever.

Having said that, anyone worth claiming will be claimed, because teams with room will offer at least a min-salary in hopes of getting them cheap.

I love it, and actually suggested pretty much exactly this in a previous thread. I think it's great.

SteBO
11-14-2011, 08:42 AM
The players have to accept this. I think the owners have moved towards the players more than I even expected them too. The NBPA are gathering today to discuss it, and hopefully they take a vote.......If they do indeed vote on it, then "goodbye lockout".

todu82
11-14-2011, 12:43 PM
Skimmed through the proposed deal but it's a deal that I think the players have to accept, if this doesn't get accepted then I think we might as well cancel the season.

hebegebe
11-14-2011, 01:24 PM
I wanted to see a hard cap

beasted86
11-14-2011, 05:00 PM
People keep saying "players have to take this deal, it's fair" , "players can't hold out without a salary", "the majority of players want to take this deal".....

Except the players keep proving you people wrong.

It's a bad deal because owners overreached. You can't ask for a 15% rollback on player salaries across the board + a 50% rollback on raises + a 40% rollback on contract lengths + a 40% rollback on the amount tax teams can sign with the MLE.

It's just too much. This doesn't affect the stars of the league... instead this affects the other 80% of players which is why the majority don't want this deal. It's not just a few players like people keep thinking, it's the grand majority of them that think it's a bad deal.