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mzgrizz
11-12-2011, 05:34 PM
Now that Stern has cautioned the agents about decertification ramifications, and we know that the players are meeting Monday to decide on the LAST NBA offer, which of these 3 parties are most to blame for the continuing lockout? Or will will have a deal this coming week?

Tony_Starks
11-12-2011, 05:57 PM
At the end of the day all the agents want is to get paid, so I don't even really count them in the equation. They are going to push for whatever deal gets the players the most money and ensures they get their nice cut so if a player is letting them get in their ear thats just foolish.

Point blank the owners are holding up the season. When this is the closest both sides have been in years and you basically go for the jugular and dish out threats then its pretty much sabotaging the season.

From what I've been reading from the players is if the owners weren't being so unreasonable with this "take it or it gets worse" mess they think something could be worked out........

Kevj77
11-12-2011, 06:00 PM
The owners have creamed the players in the negotiations, 50/50 is more than fair, they have also won on system issues like shorter contracts, smaller exceptions and a more punative luxury tax. At this point the players are just trying to minimize their losses.

The only question is will the owners let the players feel like they saved anything in the negotiations so they can get the votes to pass the CBA or do they have to completely crush them.

smith&wesson
11-12-2011, 06:06 PM
the obvious answer is the players & the owners.

- the owners want more control over a players career. the players dont want more but they want to keep the control they have.

-the nba wants a hard cap. the nbpa is reluctant to give in to a hard cap.

-nba wants to raise the age limit for players entering the league. players want to be able to chose if they want to stay in school or opt out and enter the draft.

- owners want more of the revenue. the players seem to be somewhat ok with that but still remains a question and nothings been finalized in that regard.

i can go on all day. but lets just put it this way. the owners want change. the players want the cba to remain the same as much as possible.

whos to blame for no deal ? obiously both sides because they want different things. and there is no common ground where either side is willing to meet.

they are both to blame. and that should be an option in the poll.

smith&wesson
11-12-2011, 06:07 PM
The owners have creamed the players in the negotiations, 50/50 is more than fair, they have also won on system issues like shorter contracts, smaller exceptions and a more punative luxury tax. At this point the players are just trying to minimize their losses.The only question is will the owners let the players feel like they saved anything in the negotiations so they can get the votes to pass the CBA or do they have to completely crush them.

and by not agreeing to a the deal they are actually doing the exact opposite. this current deal is reliant on a 72 game season that the owners still want to have. but if that hope is lost the owners will get more agressive and the deals from here on out will be much worse

Tony_Starks
11-12-2011, 06:14 PM
and by not agreeing to a the deal they are actually doing the exact opposite. this current deal is reliant on a 72 game season that the owners still want to have. but if that hope is lost the owners will get more agressive and the deals from here on out will be much worse


Not really. They've already shown willingness to negotiate. If they reject the deal and the owners go to a even harder stance then its completely one sided at that point and the pressure shifts......

Tony_Starks
11-12-2011, 06:20 PM
The owners have creamed the players in the negotiations, 50/50 is more than fair, they have also won on system issues like shorter contracts, smaller exceptions and a more punative luxury tax. At this point the players are just trying to minimize their losses.

The only question is will the owners let the players feel like they saved anything in the negotiations so they can get the votes to pass the CBA or do they have to completely crush them.


Thats how I feel. The owners have obviously won the battle but they are putting the union in a position where they can't even go back to the players and endorse the deal.

If they would've given them a true revised offer instead of just semantics then the union at the very least could've came back and said "hey you guys wanted some changes, they've substantially moved off of these positions, and we would suggest you take the deal."

Now its basically like "hey this is pretty much the same deal you rejected last time but they're saying this is as good as it gets...."

mzgrizz
11-12-2011, 07:51 PM
the obvious answer is the players & the owners.

- the owners want more control over a players career. the players dont want more but they want to keep the control they have.

-the nba wants a hard cap. the nbpa is reluctant to give in to a hard cap.

-nba wants to raise the age limit for players entering the league. players want to be able to chose if they want to stay in school or opt out and enter the draft.

- owners want more of the revenue. the players seem to be somewhat ok with that but still remains a question and nothings been finalized in that regard.

i can go on all day. but lets just put it this way. the owners want change. the players want the cba to remain the same as much as possible.

whos to blame for no deal ? obiously both sides because they want different things. and there is no common ground where either side is willing to meet.

they are both to blame. and that should be an option in the poll.

My bad. Gave multiple response but we do need a both

Kevj77
11-12-2011, 07:51 PM
The owners also have totally won the PR battle up to this point. Even now Stern is winning even though he is issuing ultimatums, threatening to stop all negotiation even though both sides are closer than ever and revert to the original unexceptable hardline demands.

Here is a good article by Adande about the real issues and the PR battle.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33240/finally-the-real-fight

mzgrizz
11-12-2011, 08:18 PM
The owners also have totally won the PR battle up to this point. Even now Stern is winning even though he is issuing ultimatums, threatening to stop all negotiation even though both sides are closer than ever and revert to the original unexceptable hardline demands.

Here is a good article by Adande about the real issues and the PR battle.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33240/finally-the-real-fight

Good article but it doesn't work that way for most doctors. They are not allowed to unionize by federal law and if they are employed ( not self owned) they have very restrictive non competes in their contracts. And most docs make 1/3 of a rookie salary !

todu82
11-13-2011, 10:59 AM
I think it's the owners fault now. Come on guys let's get a deal done right now.

Rocco Gandolfo
11-13-2011, 12:19 PM
This poll is ridiculous. Agents, players or owners fault? Great poll. But adding the option that an agreement will be signed? What does that haver to do with who's fault it is?

ChiSoxJuan
11-13-2011, 12:26 PM
Not the players, but their union leadership. Think back to when Fisher first suggested a 52-53% cut. Stern said that sounds reasonable. All Fisher had to do was give the owners what they wanted: a system that penalized the LT's. They cared more about that then penalizing the players. That was evident from the start but union leadership was too stupid to see it.

What could Hunter have gotten for the 52-53% cut? A higher salary cap for non LT's. That's evident now in the latest proposal with the $2.5M exemption for the near the cap crowd. There's no reason for not providing that to the well under crowd & if Hunter had been willing to strike this deal early he could've gotten that.

Look at the 12% cut in rookie & min wage now in the deal. What is the best negotiating tactic agains thtat? A luxury tax system for the draft. In exchange for getting rid of the 12% cut, they can instead get the LT's to help out with the cost of high picks for weak rev teams.

The union leadership had plenty of time to understand the focus of these negotiations. That was made evident well before last season ended. This was an owner vs owner battle from the start & it remains so. The 2/3rds majority vs the 1/3rd minority. Only a fool tries to defend the 1/3rd yet that's exactly what Hunter & Fisher have been doing all along.

mzgrizz
11-13-2011, 12:33 PM
^^^^Not surprising that billionaires can outsmart millionaires, eh?

mzgrizz
11-13-2011, 12:35 PM
This poll is ridiculous. Agents, players or owners fault? Great poll. But adding the option that an agreement will be signed? What does that haver to do with who's fault it is?

Read the poll question . Who's holding us up or will we have an agreement. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

smith&wesson
11-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Not really. They've already shown willingness to negotiate. If they reject the deal and the owners go to a even harder stance then its completely one sided at that point and the pressure shifts......

the players have been willing to negotiate all the way through. its the owners that are offering proposals and due dates. also stern has said it many times. if this deal is not acepted they propose another deal 47% for the players, 53% for the owners. thats just in regard to the split. imagine all the other things effected in the deal.

also didnt stern just come out and say if the playrs decide to take the decertification route they will lose roughly 4 billions dollars in guaranteed contracts ?

"I guess what I would say is, if the union is not in existence, then neither are $4 billion worth of guaranteed contracts that are entered into under condition that there's a union," Stern said. "So if the agents insist on playing with fire, my guess is that they would get themselves burned.""

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/david-stern-said-agents-would-be-burned-if-players-union-decertifies-588814.html

smith&wesson
11-13-2011, 01:26 PM
This poll is ridiculous. Agents, players or owners fault? Great poll. But adding the option that an agreement will be signed? What does that haver to do with who's fault it is?

u must be the stupid thread police ?

if you dont like the thread then simply dont post in it my man.

smith&wesson
11-13-2011, 01:30 PM
My bad. Gave multiple response but we do need a both

its all good bro. i just meant that personally i think both sides can take blame.

i think the players need to be more realistic and at one point see that they are not winning this battle. but also i dont blame them for not just accepting anything...

i think the owners should stop giveing these deadlines and just continue to negotiate untill a deal is done. but i understand theyre frustraition too because a change is def needed.

ink
11-13-2011, 01:30 PM
the players have been willing to negotiate all the way through. its the owners that are offering proposals and due dates. also stern has said it many times. if this deal is not acepted they propose another deal 47% for the players, 53% for the owners. thats just in regard to the split. imagine all the other things effected in the deal.

also didnt stern just come out and say if the playrs decide to take the decertification route they will lose roughly 4 billions dollars in guaranteed contracts ?

"I guess what I would say is, if the union is not in existence, then neither are $4 billion worth of guaranteed contracts that are entered into under condition that there's a union," Stern said. "So if the agents insist on playing with fire, my guess is that they would get themselves burned.""

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/david-stern-said-agents-would-be-burned-if-players-union-decertifies-588814.html

Problem is that they've been working at cross-purposes.

The players' idea of negotiating is how to get back as much of their money and rights as possible, how to claw back the advantages they had from the old CBA.

The owners' idea of negotiating was to create a new system. Since they were blocked immediately from even discussing this, they set about to create amendments to the old thinking that would give them something like the system they wanted.

The dialogue just became about haggling over how much change would be allowed. It was never about innovating as it needed to be.

So, yes, the players were willing to negotiate, but they were speaking a different language than the owners, an out-of-date language that torpedoed any progress.

mzgrizz
11-13-2011, 03:12 PM
its all good bro. i just meant that personally i think both sides can take blame.

i think the players need to be more realistic and at one point see that they are not winning this battle. but also i dont blame them for not just accepting anything...

i think the owners should stop giveing these deadlines and just continue to negotiate untill a deal is done. but i understand theyre frustraition too because a change is def needed.

I'm with you, s&w.....meant to add a both but it came out "multiple choices" :o

smith&wesson
11-13-2011, 03:44 PM
I'm with you, s&w.....meant to add a both but it came out "multiple choices" :o

I noticed your name is mzgrizz.if you are a female im sorry for calling you bro. its a bad habbit lol. ill call ya sis lol ... but ya i think both sides are to blame.

i do favour the owners personally but i cant really put all blame on one side. i think both sides have a conflict of interest.

Captain Moroni
11-13-2011, 03:47 PM
There will be no agreement. This is over. Miami fans must be dying losing a year of the big three like this...ouch.


Does Dantoni ever coach the Knicks again?
I am all for Jerry Sloan coming in here and winning us a championship. That would improve the defense immediately

Cosmic_Canon
11-13-2011, 03:56 PM
the obvious answer is the players & the owners.

- the owners want more control over a players career. the players dont want more but they want to keep the control they have.

-the nba wants a hard cap. the nbpa is reluctant to give in to a hard cap.

-nba wants to raise the age limit for players entering the league. players want to be able to chose if they want to stay in school or opt out and enter the draft.

- owners want more of the revenue. the players seem to be somewhat ok with that but still remains a question and nothings been finalized in that regard.

i can go on all day. but lets just put it this way. the owners want change. the players want the cba to remain the same as much as possible.

whos to blame for no deal ? obiously both sides because they want different things. and there is no common ground where either side is willing to meet.

they are both to blame. and that should be an option in the poll.

:clap::clap::clap:

mzgrizz
11-13-2011, 07:23 PM
I noticed your name is mzgrizz.if you are a female im sorry for calling you bro. its a bad habbit lol. ill call ya sis lol ... but ya i think both sides are to blame.

i do favour the owners personally but i cant really put all blame on one side. i think both sides have a conflict of interest.

Yes I am woman!!! And an avid basketball fan.......so starved for basketball I've been to the Memphis Tigers and Lady Tigers games this weekend !!
I do agree that they are both to blame at this point, but I do believe the pissing contest has been won by the owners and if we are to see a season, ALL the players need a vote before the majority are seriously financially hurting. Not to mention us diehard NBA fans.

smith&wesson
11-13-2011, 08:01 PM
Yes I am woman!!! And an avid basketball fan.......so starved for basketball I've been to the Memphis Tigers and Lady Tigers games this weekend !!
I do agree that they are both to blame at this point, but I do believe the pissing contest has been won by the owners and if we are to see a season, ALL the players need a vote before the majority are seriously financially hurting. Not to mention us diehard NBA fans.

I have been following the leafs as of late. which is somthing i promiced myself i wouldnt do. but hey no basketball will make you do things you dont want to do i guess lol

I would hate for there to be no season. but i understand that the game and the league needs,requires change. but i sure do hope that its all done soon.