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RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 01:11 PM
Lets talk the criticism of Derrick Rose:honestly, i dont understand it, and quite frankly, there is no basis for it, its just blind hate

First off, i would like to appologize for the bashing or percieved bashing of other players in this thread, but im stating the facts, not making up stuff when i talk about them.

How exactly can you criticize Rose for the Miami series while being guarded by a player that is not only 7 inches taller than him, but pretty much as fast, and even more athletic?

where along the the critics forget this? where along the lines did people forget that Rose is 6'2-6'3 if that much, and Lebron is 6'8-6'9, and every bit the athlete that Rose is?

when did the critics forget that Rose has been in the league for just 3 seasons?

where along those lines did they forget that thibbs is a first year Head Coach, and didnt develop an offensive system that effectlvly utalized carlos boozer to his full potential?? all boozer was doing was taking those 15' jumpers, what happened to the post ups and pick and rolls he had in Utah?

Is Rose playing with another Allstar that can help space the floor?is he playing with another superstar that garners enough attention the allow him to be a higher percentage shooter and get open looks?

No, but we ignore all this because flat out, little 23 yr could MVP Derrick Rose not only sucks, but he is overated

Who is Derrick Rose?

derrick rose has been in the league for 8 years, and has managed to make only 2 game winning shots with under 12 seconds and has won 2 finals games

oh wait, Rose hasnt don any of this yet

maybe rose is the player that has been in the league that has been in the league for 8 years, and only managed to get out of the first round once, then complained that he wasnt getting enough help when his head coach got sick with cancer and the team was forced to be coached by the assistant coach?

wait...that wasnt him either

maybe its his work ethic that makes people hate him:

"That was the mindset trainer Rob McClanaghan says Rose brought last May to Santa Monica, Calif., for offseason workouts. Inside a small high school gym, Rose shot 1,000 3-pointers a day six days a week. Along with Russell Westbrook of the Thunder and Kevin Love of the Timberwolves, Rose worked out twice a day with Sundays off.

One memorable Sunday, around 8 p.m., McClanaghan's cell-phone buzzed. It was Rose texting him: Let's go work out.

That was the mindset trainer Rob McClanaghan says Rose brought last May to Santa Monica, Calif., for offseason workouts. Inside a small high school gym, Rose shot 1,000 3-pointers a day six days a week. Along with Russell Westbrook of the Thunder and Kevin Love of the Timberwolves, Rose worked out twice a day with Sundays off.

One memorable Sunday, around 8 p.m., McClanaghan's cell-phone buzzed. It was Rose texting him: Let's go work out.

"I said we're working out in like 10 hours but Derrick said, 'Let's go,' " said McClanaghan, who Rose thanked publicly. "At that point in time, I knew the league better watch out. Derrick was in that rhythm and didn't want to take a day off to lose that touch.''

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-03/sports/ct-spt-0504-haugh-derrick-rose-mvp-nb20110503_1_rose-simeon-coach-robert-smith-work-ethic/2

“I just learned from last season where my conditioning wasn’t up to par at the end of the season,” Rose said to Marc Spears of Yahoo! Sports. “That’s what I’m working on this summer, getting my conditioning right. There was just fatigue. My body wore down. Just going through the rounds, the first time being there past the first round, it was hard. I’m just learning from it.

“People will say, ‘He didn’t get that much help.' It’s always just been me. I put a lot of pressure [on myself]. What would have happened if I was in better condition? How would I have played? You never know how it would have worked itself out.

“I’m hard on myself, very hard on myself. I think that’s why I play the way I play because I hate making mistakes.”

And he never wants to experience that failure again.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-talk/2011/07/derrick-roses-top-offseason-priority-better-conditioning/

maybe its because he puts the blame on himself rather than saying he doesnt have enough help:

“Tonight definitely it was on me,” said Rose. “I had two opportunities to end the game. Couldn’t do it. If anything, learn from it. Too many turnovers. Really was my fault, but I’m going to learn from it. As a basketball player, I know if you want to be great, you’re going to want pressure. I think that my teammates have confidence in me to go out there and play the way I play. I trust them, they trust me. Tonight was definitely a tough night where they played great defense. We did, too. But you have to find a way to finish the quarter out, finish the game off in the fourth quarter when we have the lead, and continue to play defense. One of those nights. Losing the ball, careless turnovers. Only thing I can do now is put behind me and go forward.”

Maybe hes hated because hes in his 4rd year and is trying to develop a post game, instead of being in his 9th year and just beginning to work on it:

"That's exactly what you would want to hear out of Rose, the franchise player, after such a tough loss in the East finals. In addition, could we see Rose posting up more next season? It's an area Rose tried to integrate in to his offensive repertoire late in the season, but it's still a work in progress.

"(This summer I'm) just trying to be consistent, be sharp and work on my post-up game," Rose said."

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-talk/2011/08/bulls-notes-derrick-rose-confident-in-team-title-chances/

"It appears LeBron James is finally getting serious about his post game.

While holding a charity event Monday in Ohio aimed at keeping kids in school until high school graduation, James revealed he’d been in school himself -- getting an education in how to play in the post from Hakeem Olajuwon. "

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/9359/hakeem-olajuwon-schools-lebron-james

maybe Rose isn't a true point guard, after all, he didnt take a 1.7 assist per game jump this season,or increase his ft percentage 10 points from 76 to 86%

he didnt increase his ppg by almost 5ppg per game, he didnt increase his 3pt shooting from 26 to 32 percent, he didnt take over 2 more freethrows per game

he hasnt worked hard

i guess derrick rose is the allen iverson of his position. after all, iverson sucked as well, he never won a ring, after being surrounded with soo much talent: samuel dalembert, kenny thomas, eric snow,john salmons.

iverson sucked too

but carmelo? hes great, a superstar, he is the second comming of t-mac, t-mac got out of the first round 1 time as well you know? he was an injured reserve when they advanced.

carmelo doesnt recieve criticism for anything, hes the greatest! lebron doesnt get criticism, we just laugh at him i guess, we no longer take him seriously, he doesnt show up in the 4th quarter, but hes the best player in the NBA, who knew? :shrug:

and that derrick rose kid? he sucks, his stats are horrible, he hasnt gotten better every year, he hasnt won any trophies, he isnt working on his game, we should criticize him for being in an offensive system in which he is the only player being utalized.

maybe rose isnt working hard enough? i mean look at the legendary work ethic of lebron:

“I remember one day in a film session LeBron didn't get back on defense after a missed shot. Mike Brown didn't say anything about it.
He went to the next clip and it was Mo Williams not getting back and Mike was saying, ‘Yo, Mo, we can't have that. You've got to hustle a little more.'
So Delonte West is sitting there and he's seen enough and he stands up and says, ‘Hold up, now. You can't be pussyfooting around like that. Everyone has to be accountable for what they do, not just some (of) us.'
“Mike Brown said, ‘I know, Delonte. I know.' Mike knew Delonte was right.”

-Shaq

lebron doesnt even need to improve on anything, film? who cares about that!

we should criticize rose over all these other players who have been in the league for over 6 years. we should bash Rose, Durant,Evans,Westbrook,Rondo and all the other young players, and coddle these older star players

the truth is, you have no basis to criticize rose

sure his shot selection can be improved and his turnovers should be worked on, sure, but to call him out and say he sucks, cant play pg, and that he sucks because he was guarded by a player that is 6'9? i dont think so, i wld like someone to have a valid arugment to say that rose is overated or rose sucks, please, enlighten me

gwrighter
11-09-2011, 01:14 PM
besides this being a totally subjective assessment as to what is fair. the criticism that Rose receives is because of some of the unwarranted Rose > LBJ posts that we saw during last years playoffs.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 01:17 PM
besides this being a totally subjective assessment as to what is fair. the criticism that Rose receives is because of some of the unwarranted Rose > LBJ posts that we saw during last years playoffs.

imo thats idiotic, how can you criticize a player over what fans say? do people even watch games anymore?

people letting posters influence their opinion of players??

thats what i hate about forums sometimes man

mdm692
11-09-2011, 01:24 PM
If you read beyond the lebron bashing this is actually a good post. In the next decade expect alot of durant vs rose finals matchups

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 01:26 PM
If you read beyond the lebron bashing this is actually a good post. In the next decade expect alot of durant vs rose finals matchups

yea, i realized i did bash lebron in the process, sorry

DaBUU
11-09-2011, 01:29 PM
no real need to defend DRose.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 01:31 PM
no real need to defend DRose.

i know, but i just want to know if there is any LEGIT criticism of him, something that is logical and actually makes sense. thats what i want out of this thread

PlezPlayDKnicks
11-09-2011, 01:31 PM
Carmelo > the league...

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 01:35 PM
All jokes aside, not trying to be a dick, but your post was waaaay too long.

As far as the rose criticism, I think it stems from him winning the MVP.

It seemed to me everyone in the media and alot of fans were just looking for a reason to knock Lebron off his perch because of their personal issues with him. and gave rose the mvp undeservedly.

Lebron had significantly more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, had a better fg% and 3pt fg% (he had like one assist less than Rose) for the whole year until like the last week. Routinely gaurded 4-5 different positions every night, PLAYED 4 or 5 positions everynight. But somehow because the Bulls had a few more wins than the heat and Derrick Rose was the best player on that Team (the guy is good as balls dont get me wrong) they name him the most valuable player in the league.

The criticism comes when they both square up in the playoffs and lebron is far and away the better player in that 6 game series in which he defends the smaller and supposedly quicker rose (who shot HORRIBLY).

He's Elite and will be Great, but is a victim of the media over-hyping him

mdm692
11-09-2011, 01:36 PM
Carmelo with the game on the line in the last 2 minutes > the league...

fixed

ILMindState
11-09-2011, 01:39 PM
Because haters gon hate

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 01:41 PM
All jokes aside, not trying to be a dick, but your post was waaaay too long.

As far as the rose criticism, I think it stems from him winning the MVP.

It seemed to me everyone in the media and alot of fans were just looking for a reason to knock Lebron off his perch because of their personal issues with him. and gave rose the mvp undeservedly.

Lebron had significantly more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, had a better fg% and 3pt fg% (he had like one assist less than Rose) for the whole year until like the last week. Routinely gaurded 4-5 different positions every night, PLAYED 4 or 5 positions everynight. But somehow because the Bulls had a few more wins than the heat and Derrick Rose was the best player on that Team (the guy is good as balls dont get me wrong) the name him the most valuable player in the league.

The criticism comes when they both square up in the playoffs and lebron is far and away the better player in that 6 game series in which he defends the smaller and supposedly quicker rose (who shot HORRIBLY).

He's Elite and will be Great, but is a victim of the media over-hyping him

yea, i make a lot of long posts, so i try to bold things so its kind of a subhead so people can skim a bit if they want

lebron was far and away better, but hes been in the league for 8 years, what does that show? its like comparing tyreke evans and kobe or something, a player that is developing, vs a player that is developed already. no argument there

rose got the mvp because he had less help, where as lebron had 2 stars around him, and rose beat lebrons team 3 or 4 times in the regular season, by himself pretty much, as rose never had much help against boston or miami

i dont see how lebron would have deserved the mvp at all, makes no sense to me

ILMindState
11-09-2011, 01:42 PM
All jokes aside, not trying to be a dick, but your post was waaaay too long.

As far as the rose criticism, I think it stems from him winning the MVP.

It seemed to me everyone in the media and alot of fans were just looking for a reason to knock Lebron off his perch because of their personal issues with him. and gave rose the mvp undeservedly.

Lebron had significantly more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, had a better fg% and 3pt fg% (he had like one assist less than Rose) for the whole year until like the last week. Routinely gaurded 4-5 different positions every night, PLAYED 4 or 5 positions everynight. But somehow because the Bulls had a few more wins than the heat and Derrick Rose was the best player on that Team (the guy is good as balls dont get me wrong) they name him the most valuable player in the league.

The criticism comes when they both square up in the playoffs and lebron is far and away the better player in that 6 game series in which he defends the smaller and supposedly quicker rose (who shot HORRIBLY).

He's Elite and will be Great, but is a victim of the media over-hyping him

LeBron's numberd don't matter. He took himself out of the MVP discussion the day of the pep rally. He'll lose votes because of who's on his team.

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 01:43 PM
on a side note, whats with all the man love in soccer after a goal? i understand the emotion and stuff, but do you really have to voluntarily make pile up ontop of a bunch of men and rub their face?

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 01:54 PM
we both have that problem when we write..


First, i think the number of years doesnt matter, regardless of how long rose has been here, they are both in the nba that year (you cant give him special consideration because he's doing it at a young age). Remember they are only being compared because they were up for the same award last year.

Secondly, i would argue lebron had less help than Rose. I watched every heat game last year, i saw the most top heavy line up on a court i have ever seen.

Yea Wade is incredible and when you START A TEAM with those two you know you'll probably end up with a powerhouse, but they were alonealone (not trying to count out Chris Bosh, but he was very inconsistent most of the year, especially on D) they have 3 other guys on the court who have to do their part and provide alot of things that a human doesnt have the energy to provide himself (such as consistent rebounding, a low post pressence, and the obvious, they cant d up everyone at the same time) we had alot of old players who were past their prime and were really stop gaps because of the salary cap limitations until this year when we could add MLE players, or other players who maybe weren't in their prime but good enough to produce (ala steve nash or someone like that).
Lebron had to play all those positions too make up for our lack of depth. the only young in their prime types we had were Haslem (we know what happened to him most of the year) and mike miller who came late cuz of injury and never really produced.

Rose had a team full of good defensive players (evident by the way they led the league in a lot of team defense categories), and was not a particularly good defender and they had more depth and athleticism (i dont think you know how frustrating it is too have Mario chalmers or Arroyo as your PGs).

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 01:57 PM
um, every great player in sports must endure criticism. Much of it stems from Rose winning the MVP so young, with better players in the NBA. But none of that matters. I don't think he gets unwarranted criticism outside forums really.

We always look for imperfections in athletes, no matter how amazing they are.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 02:03 PM
we both have that problem when we write..


First, i think the number of years doesnt matter, regardless of how long rose has been here, they are both in the nba that year (you cant give him special consideration because he's doing it at a young age). Remember they are only being compared because they were up for the same award last year.

Secondly, i would argue lebron had less help than Rose. I watched every heat game last year, i saw the most top heavy line up on a court i have ever seen.

Yea Wade is incredible and when you START A TEAM with those two you know you'll probably end up with a powerhouse, but they were alonealone (not trying to count out Chris Bosh, but he was very inconsistent most of the year, especially on D) they have 3 other guys on the court who have to do their part and provide alot of things that a human doesnt have the energy to provide himself (such as consistent rebounding, a low post pressence, and the obvious, they cant d up everyone at the same time) we had alot of old players who were past their prime and were really stop gaps because of the salary cap limitations until this year when we could add MLE players, or other players who maybe weren't in their prime but good enough to produce (ala steve nash or someone like that).
Lebron had to play all those positions too make up for our lack of depth. the only young in their prime types we had were Haslem (we know what happened to him most of the year) and mike miller who came late cuz of injury and never really produced.

Rose had a team full of good defensive players (evident by the way they led the league in a lot of team defense categories), and was not a particularly good defender and they had more depth and athleticism (i dont think you know how frustrating it is too have Mario chalmers or Arroyo as your PGs).

on that note, and the fact that you are attmepting to down rose because he was a 3rd year player in comparision to a 8th year player, im done,lol

the mere fact that rose was considered for an mvp in his 3rd year, and beat out everyone else speaks volumes to him as a player in comparison to lebron, but you cannot compare them to each other because rose hasnt even played 5 years yet, whern he plays 5 years, then we can discuss this

and lmao at rose having more help than lebron, his front line and bench sucked, but he played with 2 allstars, rose played with none

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 02:03 PM
LeBron's numberd don't matter. He took himself out of the MVP discussion the day of the pep rally. He'll lose votes because of who's on his team.

he took himself out of the discussion when he teamed up with another superstar

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 02:11 PM
he took himself out of the discussion when he teamed up with another superstar

for MVP? No he didn't. Not if you agree the MVP should be the best player in the NBA, even if you do have minimums for it (top 5 record, etc).

That is how I view MVP personally, but obviously I understand others may not.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 02:13 PM
for MVP? No he didn't. Not if you agree the MVP should be the best player in the NBA, even if you do have minimums for it (top 5 record, etc).

That is how I view MVP personally, but obviously I understand others may not.

if you have a team of howard,lebron,dirk,rose,and wade and that team wins 60 games and rose has the best stats

and you have a team like the kings, and evans has almost as good stats as rose, and has 63 wins, and plays with no other stars, ur going to give it to rose?

this is essentially what happened last season, rose not only had more wins, but less help

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 02:15 PM
if you have a team of howard,lebron,dirk,rose,and wade and that team wins 60 games and rose has the best stats

and you have a team like the kings, and evans has almost as good stats as rose, and has 63 wins, and plays with no other stars, ur going to give it to rose?

this is essentially what happened last season, rose not only had more wins, but less help

none of that matters imo. If a player is clearly superior to every other player, and plays on a top team, they are my MVP. I am not stupid, I know the media picks and chooses who gets it, but I question multiple MVP's given over the past 20 years.

Just personal choice. I am fine with Rose winning it this year, but I don't think he was even a top 5 player honestly.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 02:21 PM
none of that matters imo. If a player is clearly superior to every other player, and plays on a top team, they are my MVP. I am not stupid, I know the media picks and chooses who gets it, but I question multiple MVP's given over the past 20 years.

Just personal choice. I am fine with Rose winning it this year, but I don't think he was even a top 5 player honestly.

everyone is entitled to their opinion

i dont believe dirk deserved his mvp, it shld have gone to nash

my top 5:

wade
lebron
dirk
howard
rose

Da Knicks
11-09-2011, 02:25 PM
Carmelo > the league...

THIS!:p

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 02:37 PM
Carmelo > the league...

try adding something of substance that would spark an actual logical discussion when you post in threads, otherwise you just come off as a troll looking to get ur post count up

THE GIPPER
11-09-2011, 02:51 PM
did you seriously write, "lebron doesnt get criticism." ? half of your post was criticizing lebron.

gwrighter
11-09-2011, 02:53 PM
imo thats idiotic, how can you criticize a player over what fans say? do people even watch games anymore?

people letting posters influence their opinion of players??

thats what i hate about forums sometimes man

lol no, it was the fact that they were stating their opinions as fact.

truther
11-09-2011, 02:56 PM
if you're making excuses for rose like number of seasons hes been in the league,age,height. than maybe rose isn't ready to be considered elite? or the superstar you think he is.

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 02:59 PM
Yea because playing in the midwest division, you better have a great front line. The Bulls play in the worst division in basketball, its like the NFC West of the NBA. He got to go against the bucks, pistons, and cavs 3 or 4 games out of the year.

did you even read what i wrote? in no way did i down rose for being a 3rd year player. i simply stated you cant use the fact that he is that good at that age as a credential for winning an MVP, thats like saying "well player A and B have the same stats, but player A is doing it a 40 yrs old, thats more impressive so he should win it. thats all.

And as far as the team goes. its a team sport, the bench always comes into play, lebron and wade cant play 48 a night. we have 2 great players, 1 very good one, udonis haslem (who barely played) and a bunch of garbage (not by choice, but its a young mans game and if u physically can't keep up, it doesnt matter how good you are.

And by the way, Lebrons numbers were way better than Rose's, NOT a little better

"LOL" Its obvious in your posts that your getting defensive"LOL", so ill just leave it alone "LOL". we'll just agree to disagree "LOL".

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 03:01 PM
none of that matters imo. If a player is clearly superior to every other player, and plays on a top team, they are my MVP. I am not stupid, I know the media picks and chooses who gets it, but I question multiple MVP's given over the past 20 years.

Just personal choice. I am fine with Rose winning it this year, but I don't think he was even a top 5 player honestly.

couldnt have said it better myself

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:01 PM
did you seriously write, "lebron doesnt get criticism." ? half of your post was criticizing lebron.

its more of a joke when people talk about lebron, imo, they laugh at it, milk cartos saying lebron is missing, etc.because we expect him to not rise to the occasion after watching the 2011 regular season. with rose, its more of a serious discussion because people dont have their facts straight

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:02 PM
lol no, it was the fact that they were stating their opinions as fact.

lol

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:06 PM
if you're making excuses for rose like number of seasons hes been in the league,age,height. than maybe rose isn't ready to be considered elite? or the superstar you think he is.

how can you criticize a player that hasnt developed yet?

its like calling demrcus cousins or favors a draft bust, when they only played 1 season

the mere fact that rose is a superstar, and has only played 3 seasons speaks volume to his ability, but to criticize him or call him overated at this stage is idiotic

in comparison to lebron,melo,dirk,wade,bosh,pierce, etc, players that are in or past their prime, meaning their games are pretty much done developing and and they are who they will be in the future, they cannot add much to their game

where as rose, in his 4th year, only 23 years of age, has alot of room to grow,we probably wont see him at his true potential till he is about 27 or 28

same for durant, durant is unbelievably raw, he doesnt have a post game, he is basically a athletic jump shooter

same thing with blake griffin, how could you criticize him for having no post game and being a poor defender after playing only 1 nba season?

my limit is 5 years in the league, then you can criticize players for what they have/havent improved on, and what they have won and what they havent

gwrighter
11-09-2011, 03:07 PM
lol

you should have seen it man, it was the attack of the Bulls homers. Add on to the general consensus that Rose wasn't really deserving of his MVP & you got yourself some long lasting criticism. IMO Dwight Howard should have been MVP last year & it's not even close.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:14 PM
Yea because playing in the midwest division, you better have a great front line. The Bulls play in the worst division in basketball, its like the NFC West of the NBA. He got to go against the bucks, pistons, and cavs 3 or 4 games out of the year.

did you even read what i wrote? in no way did i down rose for being a 3rd year player. i simply stated you cant use the fact that he is that good at that age as a credential for winning an MVP, thats like saying "well player A and B have the same stats, but player A is doing it a 40 yrs old, thats more impressive so he should win it. thats all.

And as far as the team goes. its a team sport, the bench always comes into play, lebron and wade cant play 48 a night. we have 2 great players, 1 very good one, udonis haslem (who barely played) and a bunch of garbage (not by choice, but its a young mans game and if u physically can't keep up, it doesnt matter how good you are.

And by the way, Lebrons numbers were way better than Rose's, NOT a little better

"LOL" Its obvious in your posts that your getting defensive"LOL", so ill just leave it alone "LOL". we'll just agree to disagree "LOL".

lebron plays the 3 on a team that doesnt have any true rebounders outside of wade and bron.. i dont really count bosh, hes a stat whore at the 4 position because hes not playing with a 5 that can actually rebound, ex: bosh's career high rebounding years came when he played with ardrea bargiani of the raptors who averaged what? 5 rebs a game when they played together?and now bosh is laying in miami, and what does he average: 8.3 "LOL"


so you can forget trying to tell me about lebron's rebounding, the team has no rebounders so he, as a 6'9 player picks up the slack, as with rose, a 6'2 player, has 2 rebounders in the starting 5 capable of AVERAGING 10 boards a night. as a passer? lebron is a pg basically, and has played in the league 8 years, he has developed as a player farther than rose has because rose has only played 3 years. rose rose 1.7 assists per game last year

lebron didnt even average 7 assists per game in his 3rd season

"LOL"

if you ever watched a bulls game, rose is the offense, he has no offensive help, defensively, il give you that, but look where the heat ranked on defense and then talk to me "LOL"

:facepalm:

Birdmannn
11-09-2011, 03:14 PM
To the guy that started this thread.

I just want you to go look at LBJ third year stats and I want you too know he was a year younger then Rose too.

Why would you make a thread thats complaining about bashing when half of your post was bashing others.

There is always going to be someone that has bad things to say about everyone.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:15 PM
you should have seen it man, it was the attack of the Bulls homers. Add on to the general consensus that Rose wasn't really deserving of his MVP & you got yourself some long lasting criticism. IMO Dwight Howard should have been MVP last year & it's not even close.

lmao

thats a funny one

heck, why not go give it to kevin love?

he had great stats i believe

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 03:16 PM
lmao

thats a funny one

heck, why not go give it to kevin love?

he had great stats i believe

I think Dwight deserved it over Rose as well. Dwight is a top 3 player, and was more important to his team's win total than any single player in the NBA last year most likely (when we talk upper tier teams obviously).

truther
11-09-2011, 03:18 PM
how can you criticize a player that hasnt developed yet?

its like calling demrcus cousins or favors a draft bust, when they only played 1 season

the mere fact that rose is a superstar, and has only played 3 seasons speaks volume to his ability, but to criticize him or call him overated at this stage is idiotic

in comparison to lebron,melo,dirk,wade,bosh,pierce, etc, players that are in or past their prime, meaning their games are pretty much done developing and and they are who they will be in the future, they cannot add much to their game

where as rose, in his 4th year, only 23 years of age, has alot of room to grow,we probably wont see him at his true potential till he is about 27 or 28

same for durant, durant is unbelievably raw, he doesnt have a post game, he is basically a athletic jump shooter

same thing with blake griffin, how could you criticize him for having no post game and being a poor defender after playing only 1 nba season?

my limit is 5 years in the league, then you can criticize players for what they have/havent improved on, and what they have won and what they havent

so basically at this stage in his career he isn't at their level if he can't be crticized like them, no one is saying rose won't get better we're talking about him as a player today and if he wants to be mentioned as some one at the level of bron,wade,dwight than excuses of age and such can't be used, if he wants to be a 2nd tier star than we can say okay he;ll get better eventually.

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 03:19 PM
If your giving him an award for his CURRENT play, then obviously you bring up his CURRENT strengths and weakneses. so the fact that he lacks this and that is VERY relevant, even if he is a rookie.

Birdmannn
11-09-2011, 03:19 PM
I also agree Dwight had more of a reason to win it.

Were the heat not the second best defensive team?

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:23 PM
To the guy that started this thread.

I just want you to go look at LBJ third year stats and I want you too know he was a year younger then Rose too.

Why would you make a thread thats complaining about bashing when half of your post was bashing others.

There is always going to be someone that has bad things to say about everyone.

lets go by age first:

22 yr old lebron averaged 27,6.7 and 6 assists

22 year old rose averaged 25,4, and 7.7 assists

now by year:

year 3 lebron: 31,7, and 6 on a team that featured: donyell marshall, big Z, drew gooden,damon jones,eric snow, and larry hughes

year 3 rose:averaged 25,4, and 7.7 assists on a team with: boozer,deng,noah,gibson,korver,thomas,asik,brewer

:shrug:

look at 2007 lebron(aka 22 yr old lebron)'s
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

lebron played with crap, got better stats, rose played with good players, not great, and got good stats

lemme know when you have a valid argument tho

pd1dish
11-09-2011, 03:24 PM
i never understood the Rose bashing. hes a great player to watch and easily one of the most exciting players in the game. he never shifts the blame towards anyone else, he knows how to act towards the media unlike many other players, and hes a soft spoken, humble guy who is respected by the whole league. his raw talent is so ridiculous and his work ethic so off the charts that i cant wait until Rose is actually in his prime. i just dont understand what warrants ANY hate towards this player.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:26 PM
so basically at this stage in his career he isn't at their level if he can't be crticized like them, no one is saying rose won't get better we're talking about him as a player today and if he wants to be mentioned as some one at the level of bron,wade,dwight than excuses of age and such can't be used, if he wants to be a 2nd tier star than we can say okay he;ll get better eventually.

as i said, he is going to be a 4th year player, who hasnt fully developed, and is a top 7 NBA player as it is.

he hasnt even fully developed his game and has a MVP, where as it took kobe and lebron how long to get theirs?

rose is practibly a baby compared to those guys in age and playing time, in a few years, if you want to criticize him, sure, go ahead, but to criticize a 3rd year player??

makes no sense to me

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 03:30 PM
If your giving him an award for his CURRENT play, then obviously you bring up his CURRENT strengths and weakneses. so the fact that he lacks this and that is VERY relevant, even if he is a rookie.

im not saying dont bring him up, but to blatantly bash him for being a 3rd year player, thats not playing with stars, that hasnt even come close to fulfulling his full potential is idiotic

when u have players like dwight who fully developed his post game(looks to me like blake has a better post game than howard), melo who cant defend for his life,lebron who isnt clutch, chris bosh and stoudemire who cant rebound.

criticize htose players, they have been in the game 6+ years

how is it that rose is developing his post game in his 4th year, and lebron in his 9th is just beginning to start?

what was he doing all those years? partying?

what has howard been doing? didnt he just start working with hakeem a year ago?

whats stoudemires excuse? what kind of pf cant average 10 boards?

29$JerZ
11-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Rose gets bashed on PSD strictly because of a large chunk of the bulls fanbase who thinks he can do no wrong and is a top 5 player. Other than that you can't really say nothing bad about Rose. Sky is the limit and he has the perfect scenario to improve his defense and outside shot.

Same hate is why Melo, Lebron, and Kobe/Rose can't be discussed in the NBA forum Not enough level headed people here to discuss things like this.

Birdmannn
11-09-2011, 03:34 PM
He is over loved and over hyped by the media alike.
He plays bad defense on the best defensive team.
He plays good offensive on a bad offensive team.
The team is built for him. When no one else on the team can hit the bottom of the net or pass you better have good stats.
You just have to much love in your eyes for Rose.
He is great player and I agree with that but he doesn't get criticized much at all compared to better players, ex. dirk and lbj

Heatcheck
11-09-2011, 03:37 PM
your right, the blind bashing is wrong.

But how many people just randomly criticize Rose for his deficiencies? its usually when the topic of MVP comes up that this happens, and when comparing to players, its impossible to not criticize.

truther
11-09-2011, 03:38 PM
as i said, he is going to be a 4th year player, who hasnt fully developed, and is a top 7 NBA player as it is.

he hasnt even fully developed his game and has a MVP, where as it took kobe and lebron how long to get theirs?
rose is practibly a baby compared to those guys in age and playing time, in a few years, if you want to criticize him, sure, go ahead, but to criticize a 3rd year player??

makes no sense to me

lol really, do you see anthing wrong with that sentence. are you actually using it against them because lebron and kobe had MULTIPLE seasons that were more mvp worthy than rose this season.

okay i get what you're saying but to those who try to overatte rose and say he's top 4-5 can't use age/experience as an excuse because you're already putting him at a special group.

magichatnumber9
11-09-2011, 03:43 PM
Why defend anyone you don't know

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 03:44 PM
Reke, I will type it again for you:

um, every great player in sports must endure criticism. Much of it stems from Rose winning the MVP so young, with better players in the NBA. But none of that matters. I don't think he gets unwarranted criticism outside forums really.

We always look for imperfections in athletes, no matter how amazing they are.

truther
11-09-2011, 03:44 PM
im not saying dont bring him up, but to blatantly bash him for being a 3rd year player, thats not playing with stars, that hasnt even come close to fulfulling his full potential is idiotic

when u have players like dwight who fully developed his post game(looks to me like blake has a better post game than howard), melo who cant defend for his life,lebron who isnt clutch, chris bosh and stoudemire who cant rebound.

criticize htose players, they have been in the game 6+ years

how is it that rose is developing his post game in his 4th year, and lebron in his 9th is just beginning to start?

what was he doing all those years? partying?

what has howard been doing? didnt he just start working with hakeem a year ago?

whats stoudemires excuse? what kind of pf cant average 10 boards?

im sorry but whats the point of a post game for rose, he has sooooo many other things he should be focusing on before he even touches that ie: defense,passing,iq,running offenes,shooting(good but can improve),range(improved a lot this year but can perfect it)

PlezPlayDKnicks
11-09-2011, 03:46 PM
try adding something of substance that would spark an actual logical discussion when you post in threads, otherwise you just come off as a troll looking to get ur post count up

It was obvious sarcasm. Since you've joined this site I've seen nuthin but shots at the Knicks. The jabs @ Melo are a joke. Melo has been bashed mercilessly here and that's no lie. Every1 gets criticism. Because u are a bulls fan in ny u take ur frustration out in PSD. Rose is a beast and lead a Bulls team with very little offensive help but had a great team defense. This thread is another made to get Rose bromance posts. Imagine if a knick fan made this 4 Melo

SteBO
11-09-2011, 03:46 PM
Reke, I will type it again for you:

um, every great player in sports must endure criticism. Much of it stems from Rose winning the MVP so young, with better players in the NBA. But none of that matters. I don't think he gets unwarranted criticism outside forums really.

We always look for imperfections in athletes, no matter how amazing they are.
um, this. Every great player has to go through it. That's just the way it is not only in sports, but in life as well.

NickyNick
11-09-2011, 03:48 PM
threads like this make people hate on rose....no one needs to defend him, hes legit

PlezPlayDKnicks
11-09-2011, 03:49 PM
He is over loved and over hyped by the media alike.
He plays bad defense on the best defensive team.
He plays good offensive on a bad offensive team.
The team is built for him. When no one else on the team can hit the bottom of the net or pass you better have good stats.
You just have to much love in your eyes for Rose.
He is great player and I agree with that but he doesn't get criticized much at all compared to better players, ex. dirk and lbj

You hit the nail on the head.

mjm07
11-09-2011, 03:53 PM
he took himself out of the discussion when he teamed up with another superstar

So according to you the following players are automatically removed from MVP contention moving forwards:

(in no particular order)

1. LBJ
2. Carmelo
3. Wade
4. Amar'e
5. Bosh
6. Chris Paul ( he's most likley going to leave his current team to team up with a superstar i.e. Knicks, )
7. Dwight Howard ( same as CP3 rumored to go the Nets, Knicks, Lakers etc)


Even though Carlos Boozer is a former all star and signed a max contract (hightest paid player on the bulls) similar to other superstars, as well as Loul Deng, that obviously doesn't hinder D Rose in future MVP votings.

Now i'm starting to understand. :rolleyes:

Da Knicks
11-09-2011, 04:01 PM
It was obvious sarcasm. Since you've joined this site I've seen nuthin but shots at the Knicks. The jabs @ Melo are a joke. Melo has been bashed mercilessly here and that's no lie. Every1 gets criticism. Because u are a bulls fan in ny u take ur frustration out in PSD. Rose is a beast and lead a Bulls team with very little offensive help but had a great team defense. This thread is another made to get Rose bromance posts. Imagine if a knick fan made this 4 Melo

Funny he attacked me with the same sentence on another thread.:facepalm:

Sinestro
11-09-2011, 04:23 PM
Reke, I will type it again for you:

um, every great player in sports must endure criticism. Much of it stems from Rose winning the MVP so young, with better players in the NBA. But none of that matters. I don't think he gets unwarranted criticism outside forums really.

We always look for imperfections in athletes, no matter how amazing they are.

This...the forums on here tend to make you hate or dislike a player when under normal circumstances you may not, all the big market players, Rose, LeBron, Kobe, Melo are all constantly destroyed on here because there are so many fans who proclaim them to be the best that it gets annoying and people begin to dislike them and rip them down.

That being said Rose is still young no matter which way you look at it he didn't play that well against Miami and LeBron locked him down. Whether he was tired from the long season or his teammates didn't contribute doesn't matter he got shut down and didn't play well at all. I'm ok with him getting destroyed and having to go through this. I know his fire and his desire to get better will help him, I think he'll come back stronger next year because of it.

RZZZA
11-09-2011, 04:29 PM
How does the myth that Rose is a bad defender keep getting perpetuated. You're wrong, get over it.

hugepatsfan
11-09-2011, 04:30 PM
Are you saying Rose deserves no criticism? That means you think he's a perfect player, which makes you a blatant homer.

Chronz
11-09-2011, 04:37 PM
How exactly can you criticize Rose for the Miami series while being guarded by a player that is not only 7 inches taller than him, but pretty much as fast, and even more athletic?
Bron isnt as fast or quick as Rose, no way. He just used his smarts to lead him into the help, and he had plenty of it. Bron is a superb defender so Rose's struggles are understandable.


when did the critics forget that Rose has been in the league for just 3 seasons?

When Bill Russell won his first title, his first year. Or Magic etc... Point being, if you have the team your age being an excuse only lessens your greatness, its one thing to blame the team, thats totally understandable, but using your youth as an excuse only tells people you have a slower learning curve.


where along those lines did they forget that thibbs is a first year Head Coach, and didnt develop an offensive system that effectlvly utalized carlos boozer to his full potential?? all boozer was doing was taking those 15' jumpers, what happened to the post ups and pick and rolls he had in Utah?

They were replaced by a PG who cannot operate the Flex in the same manner Deron could. No biggie but your point about Boozers struggles being a result of less post-ups/PnR is false. He was actually forced to create more on his own than he ever had to in Utah. Boozer being a post player was the biggest misconception going into the season, he thrives off of movement, and set shots. In Chicago they had most of the same talent Utah had in order to run an effective Flex, but Rose is not Deron so Thibs had to alter most of the offense depending on who was healthy.


Is Rose playing with another Allstar that can help space the floor?is he playing with another superstar that garners enough attention the allow him to be a higher percentage shooter and get open looks?

Its not that simple but yes he could use more help, that much is obvious.


As for the rest of your drawn out diatribe, you make some decent points but I dont buy into everything people say so it doesnt concern me. Still those points above had to be corrected.

chipurmunki
11-09-2011, 04:39 PM
All jokes aside, not trying to be a dick, but your post was waaaay too long.

no, your post was waaaaay too long. you want him to gloss over his points and miss context and where he got his conclusions from? his post was thoughtful and informative and he backed up his opinions and gave sources for quotes.... he was thorough. you should take notes.

Slimsim
11-09-2011, 04:43 PM
rose is the only thing I like about Chicago

Sinestro
11-09-2011, 04:51 PM
How does the myth that Rose is a bad defender keep getting perpetuated. You're wrong, get over it.

Enough people repeat it then people begin to believe it, at this point in his career he's at bare minimum a decent defender

Chronz
11-09-2011, 04:53 PM
Enough people repeat it then people begin to believe it, at this point in his career he's at bare minimum a decent defender

Yup, its the same way every basketball cliche ever got started.

GhostfaceDrilla
11-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Dirk was triple teamed for alot of the GS series in 07 yet he was still criticized. Why should we give Rose a break for having one player guard him?

GhostfaceDrilla
11-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Dirk and Howard both deserved the MVP over Rose last year as well....

Raph12
11-09-2011, 06:39 PM
He's a top 10 player, but there are fans out there claiming he was among the best in the league (top 5 or better) and others claiming he was most deserving for MVP and others claiming he's the best PG in the league... All three statements are false yet backed by the die-hard fans and for that he receives much of the criticism.

If fans could say he had a great 3rd season, played above expectations and looks like he has a great future ahead of him; no one would have said anything negative to those guys.

KingPosey
11-09-2011, 06:50 PM
imo thats idiotic, how can you criticize a player over what fans say? do people even watch games anymore?

people letting posters influence their opinion of players??

thats what i hate about forums sometimes man

Lol trust me, no matter what's presented, everyone's minds on PSD are already made up.

Ovratd1up
11-09-2011, 06:52 PM
He's a top 10 player, but there are fans out there claiming he was among the best in the league (top 5 or better) and others claiming he was most deserving for MVP and others claiming he's the best PG in the league... All three statements are false yet backed by the die-hard fans and for that he receives much of the criticism.

I would say he had a top 5 performance last regular season, pretty sure top 3/4 too.


If fans could say he had a great 3rd season, played above expectations and looks like he has a great future ahead of him; no one would have said anything negative to those guys.

But stuff like that is what Derrick says. If you don't like what fans say, pick on the fans, not the players.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 06:52 PM
lol really, do you see anthing wrong with that sentence. are you actually using it against them because lebron and kobe had MULTIPLE seasons that were more mvp worthy than rose this season.

okay i get what you're saying but to those who try to overatte rose and say he's top 4-5 can't use age/experience as an excuse because you're already putting him at a special group.

oh of course, kobe deserved that mvp over cp3, no doubt :rolleyes:

it took those guys years to get theirs, rose is the youngest mvp of all time, and hes not even near his prime, hes just starting

he is in a special group, because i genuinly believe he is the 5th best player in the nba, how could i put cp3, carmelo, williams, stoudemire, etc ahead of him???

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 06:54 PM
im sorry but whats the point of a post game for rose, he has sooooo many other things he should be focusing on before he even touches that ie: defense,passing,iq,running offenes,shooting(good but can improve),range(improved a lot this year but can perfect it)

why not add a piece to your game that could give you a huge advantage over other pgs?

i guess you thought jordan and kobe should have neglected getting a post game as well, after all, they are guards too, guards should only shoot

rose is working on all facets of his game and incorperating a post game, and in the summer of 2010 i believe it was, he said something around the grounds that he had "the perfect teacher for it"

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 06:57 PM
So according to you the following players are automatically removed from MVP contention moving forwards:

(in no particular order)

1. LBJ
2. Carmelo
3. Wade
4. Amar'e
5. Bosh
6. Chris Paul ( he's most likley going to leave his current team to team up with a superstar i.e. Knicks, )
7. Dwight Howard ( same as CP3 rumored to go the Nets, Knicks, Lakers etc)


Even though Carlos Boozer is a former all star and signed a max contract (hightest paid player on the bulls) similar to other superstars, as well as Loul Deng, that obviously doesn't hinder D Rose in future MVP votings.

Now i'm starting to understand. :rolleyes:

yes, if you team up with 2 other stars: ex.pierce, garnett, allen, bron,wade,bosh i would definately have to take you into less consideration in comparison to players playing with 1 star or 0.

its pretty simple really, look at boozers stats in the 2nd half of the season and tell me if he played like a star

luol deng is probably my favorite bull, he isnt a star, but hes one of the best 3's in the league imo top 7 or so

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Are you saying Rose deserves no criticism? That means you think he's a perfect player, which makes you a blatant homer.

try reading the bottom of my first post

i wld love to make a contract with you, u wld never bother to read the fine print :laugh2:

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 07:00 PM
no, your post was waaaaay too long. you want him to gloss over his points and miss context and where he got his conclusions from? his post was thoughtful and informative and he backed up his opinions and gave sources for quotes.... he was thorough. you should take notes.

thanks for the respect man!!! :clap:

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 07:02 PM
Lol trust me, no matter what's presented, everyone's minds on PSD are already made up.

im not trying to convince them, i want them to convince me that people are valid for criticizing him for his performance, when in the large part, its because of the system, and the fact that he hasnt developed as yet

i cant wait to see what he will become in the next 4 years, i think he can retire with 2-3 mvps for his career after this very nice start

ClippersE.G
11-09-2011, 07:03 PM
I am a Clippers fan but even I will admit Rose is ALL The Bulls have. Take a good look at The Bulls roster and it is really amazing incredible stuff that they made it as far as they did. All you have to worry about with the Bulls is Rose, Carlos Boozer sucks, Keith Bogans? Take a good look at it and replace Rose with a generic sorry Point Guard and the team would be one of the worst in the league. Sometimes I think him and Noah alone help em notch more Ws based on their adrenaline and hustle alone....

Chronz
11-09-2011, 07:12 PM
Lol trust me, no matter what's presented, everyone's minds on PSD are already made up.

Thats not true, dont be so pessimistic

Chronz
11-09-2011, 07:13 PM
I am a Clippers fan but even I will admit Rose is ALL The Bulls have. Take a good look at The Bulls roster and it is really amazing incredible stuff that they made it as far as they did. All you have to worry about with the Bulls is Rose, Carlos Boozer sucks, Keith Bogans? Take a good look at it and replace Rose with a generic sorry Point Guard and the team would be one of the worst in the league. Sometimes I think him and Noah alone help em notch more Ws based on their adrenaline and hustle alone....
Im a Clippers fan and even I will admit I dont believe anything you just said

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 07:13 PM
I am a Clippers fan but even I will admit Rose is ALL The Bulls have. Take a good look at The Bulls roster and it is really amazing incredible stuff that they made it as far as they did. All you have to worry about with the Bulls is Rose, Carlos Boozer sucks, Keith Bogans? Take a good look at it and replace Rose with a generic sorry Point Guard and the team would be one of the worst in the league. Sometimes I think him and Noah alone help em notch more Ws based on their adrenaline and hustle alone....

i agree, except where u say boozer sucks, i believe he wasnt used properly, the next season we will see if he does suck, because he only played 1 year with us

luol deng is a great defender, great mid range shooter, but he isnt a guy we can depend on for 20 a night

keith bogans?? we got torches and pitch forks ready for him

noah, hes overated defensvely imo, but a very very good center in todays NBA

all we need is OJ mayo, or hamilton, and a backup pg, and i think we can show the league what we are capable of

JEDean89
11-09-2011, 07:43 PM
how does melo not get criticism? everyone has been bashing him saying he'll never win a title and that he doesn't play defense. Wasn't he ranked like 15th on ESPN? Rose is IMO overrated and this year he can't really get to much better as a scorer and will have no chance to win the MVP. Look at lebron's stat line, then look at droses stat line, lebron is better in every category. This year the heat will definitely win more games than the bulls. Chicago is screwed, the overpayed boozer and will have to pay Rose to stay too, they need a solid offensive 2 guard and I think JR is your guy, if there is any coach who could turn JR into the 20 ppg player he should be its Thibadeou.

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 07:49 PM
I was reading nbaplaybook the other day and they had a segment on how teams defend certain PGs running a Pick and Roll:

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/10/31/how-top-point-guards-in-the-pick-and-roll-are-defended-and-why/


Derrick Rose

How Teams Defend Him

Teams defended Derrick Rose by trying to get the basketball out of his hands. When coming off of a ball screen Rose was single covered, meaning there wasn’t an extra defender sent his way, just 34.8% of the time.

Why?

Rose’s situation with his Bulls is almost the exact opposite situation that Rajon Rondo has with the Celtics. Rose is so good with the basketball in his hands that defenses would much rather let Rose’s teammates try to beat them. To do so, they throw extra defenders at him and make Rose pass the basketball. When defenses committed to Derrick Rose, they were able to force him to pass it 91.3% of the time and on those passes, his teammates scored only 0.946 points per possession on just 43.6% shooting

As Rose comes off of a ballscreen, he more often than not sees a second defender looking him right in the face as teams overload in his direction, leaving teammates open and willing to deal with the consequences. Rose is a smart player and he doesn’t force the issue a whole lot, so teams were able to get the ball out of his hands more often that not as Rose made the right direction, hitting the open man. Unfortunately for Rose and the Bulls, his teammates couldn’t knock down the open shot consistently.


You can't rack up a Chris Paul assist totals when your teammates miss open shots (unless your scorekeeper inflates stats ;))

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 07:52 PM
im sorry but whats the point of a post game for rose, he has sooooo many other things he should be focusing on before he even touches that ie: defense,passing,iq,running offenes,shooting(good but can improve),range(improved a lot this year but can perfect it)

This pretty much sums it up. It is not bad that he is attempting to develop a post game, but there are a myriad of better skills he should perfect first. A jack of all trades is a master of none. He should focus on the most critical aspects to his position first and then expand. He needs a better shot, he is not bright (IQ), he is not an exceptional passer, his ability to run an offense is suspect, etc. A post game would be great, but not now...not yet.

Also, his criticism is very fair. His FG% was a career low last year, when you attempt that many 3s and only make 32%(and that is your career high) you need to stop shooting them or take less regardless of if you have improved. He is turnover prone. He is NOT humble despite what many believe. He may say the correct things many times, but he is in no way humble. I know many people that went to Memphis and played with him. The guy is conceited as Lebron, yet everyone was under the same guise that he was humble as well. Rose DOES deflect. To blame his poor playoff performance on conditioning may be true, but it is also definitely an excuse in the way he presented it.

Look, the kid is good. He has loads of potential, and is a future star/carrier of this league. With that being said he is vastly overrated by his fans, potentially underrated by many others, and is just beginning to come into his own. His peak years are not his 27-32 years. His peak stats will come now to 27yrs. There can be no argument to make an asterisk because of age because that is an excuse. MVP winners should make none of those and expect NOT to be criticized. Especially when many others have performed exponentially more superior and not been awarded the MVP.

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 07:56 PM
im sorry but whats the point of a post game for rose, he has sooooo many other things he should be focusing on before he even touches that ie: defense,passing,iq,running offenes,shooting(good but can improve),range(improved a lot this year but can perfect it)

It's simple, when you have a huge physical advantage over just about anyone at the position, developing a post game is smart and efficient way to score. Jordan did, recently we saw Chauncey Billups do it at the PG position, shame Lebron hasn't developed one yet but he will when his athletic advantage slips.

That Michael Jordan guy had a decent post game too...

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 07:57 PM
This pretty much sums it up. It is not bad that he is attempting to develop a post game, but there are a myriad of better skills he should perfect first. A jack of all trades is a master of none. He should focus on the most critical aspects to his position first and then expand. He needs a better shot, he is not bright (IQ), he is not an exceptional passer, his ability to run an offense is suspect, etc. A post game would be great, but not now...not yet.

Also, his criticism is very fair. His FG% was a career low last year, when you attempt that many 3s and only make 32%(and that is your career high) you need to stop shooting them or take less regardless of if you have improved. He is turnover prone. He is NOT humble despite what many believe. He may say the correct things many times, but he is in no way humble. I know many people that went to Memphis and played with him. The guy is conceited as Lebron, yet everyone was under the same guise that he was humble as well. Rose DOES deflect. To blame his poor playoff performance on conditioning may be true, but it is also definitely an excuse in the way he presented it.

Look, the kid is good. He has loads of potential, and is a future star/carrier of this league. With that being said he is vastly overrated by his fans, potentially underrated by many others, and is just beginning to come into his own. His peak years are not his 27-32 years. His peak stats will come now to 27yrs. There can be no argument to make an asterisk because of age because that is an excuse. MVP winners should make none of those and expect NOT to be criticized. Especially when many others have performed exponentially more superior and not been awarded the MVP.

C'mon dude, are you for real?

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 07:59 PM
It's simple, when you have a huge physical advantage over just about anyone at the position, developing a post game is smart and efficient way to score. Jordan did, recently we saw Chauncey Billups do it at the PG position, shame Lebron hasn't developed one yet but he will when his athletic advantage slips.

That Michael Jordan guy had a decent post game too...

exactly

i remember a few games this season when rose posted up, i see great potential, hes a little unconventional, i believe he had a post up, turn around floater to the right, it was beautiful, but unconventional

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 08:07 PM
C'mon dude, are you for real?

About what do you disagree?

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 08:10 PM
About what do you disagree?

give me a minute

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 08:12 PM
C'mon dude, are you for real?

dont waste your time arguing with him, point guards dont need post games, power forwards dont need jumpshots, shooting guards dont need to be able to layup

use ur head man, they shld stick to what their job is, point guards should only be allowed to play pg if they can get 11 assists per game

centers shouldnt score, just rebound

go with the flow man!

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 08:12 PM
give me a minute

That' fine. However I admit I made a mistake. He shot 33% which is average. However, he shot almost 5 a game. Plus, his post allstar he shot less than 30% and attempted an even higher amount than pre allstar

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 08:15 PM
dont waste your time arguing with him, point guards dont need post games, power forwards dont need jumpshots, shooting guards dont need to be able to layup

use ur head man, they shld stick to what their job is, point guards should only be allowed to play pg if they can get 11 assists per game

centers shouldnt score, just rebound

go with the flow man!

That is not at all what I said. If you actually read what I wrote, the first paragraph said that it is great to have a post game. However, there are priorities that are higher n the list IMO...I can have one of those too. Can't I? Or is it that only Rose FANS can have an opinion on him?

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 08:16 PM
That is not at all what I said. If you actually read what I wrote, the first paragraph said that it is great to have a post game. However, there are priorities that are higher n the list IMO...I can have one of those too. Can't I? Or is it that only Rose FANS can have an opinion on him?

rose himself said that he is working on all facets of his game and adding a post game so i really dont see ur problem

unlike lebron, he isnt waiting till his 9th season to add a new section to his game

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 08:19 PM
rose himself said that he is working on all facets of his game and adding a post game so i really dont see ur problem

unlike lebron, he isnt waiting till his 9th season to add a new section to his game

Have you ever looked at Lebron's points per post attempt? He scores more efficiently than Kobe and the VAST majority of the league.

It is not humanly possible to make drastic strides in everything in one summer. Many of the greats have said they only attempted to improve one or two aspects at a time. Kobe in particular focused one summer solely on his post game.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 08:23 PM
Have you ever looked at Lebron's points per post attempt? He scores more efficiently than Kobe and the VAST majority of the league.

It is not humanly possible to make drastic strides in everything in one summer. Many of the greats have said they only attempted to improve one or two aspects at a time. Kobe in particular focused one summer solely on his post game.

you may have a point there, on the points per attempt, but how often does he post up? if he can develop some actual moves he could have that as a huge facet of his game.

we all know about the legendary post game of kobe, imagine if lbj had a post game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
but i guess im the only one who finds it funny that he spent 8 years on his jumper, and now he finally realizes that hes bigger than most sfs and shld post up to gain a bigger advantage

mdm692
11-09-2011, 08:28 PM
Off topic and homerish but nash should be MVP until he retires or signs with another team.

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 08:34 PM
you may have a point there, on the points per attempt, but how often does he post up? if he can develop some actual moves he could have that as a huge facet of his game.

we all know about the legendary post game of kobe, imagine if lbj had a post game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
but i guess im the only one who finds it funny that he spent 8 years on his jumper, and now he finally realizes that hes bigger than most sfs and shld post up to gain a bigger advantage

I forget how often he actually posts. I think Kobe had about twice as many attempts at a moderately worse efficiency. Regardless, I do agree that Lebron DEFINITELY should look to improve his post game further and utilize it.

I detest Lebron, so it is odd to defend him, but it makes sense to learn to shoot when your best attribute is getting to the rim. It makes getting to the rim easier for a player like that because he will have the ball in his hands the majority of the time. Posting is not always an option until he decides to finally play off ball more.


Off topic and homerish but nash should be MVP until he retires or signs with another team.

hahaha....funny:rolleyes:

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 08:39 PM
This pretty much sums it up. It is not bad that he is attempting to develop a post game, but there are a myriad of better skills he should perfect first. A jack of all trades is a master of none. He should focus on the most critical aspects to his position first and then expand. He needs a better shot, he is not bright (IQ), he is not an exceptional passer, his ability to run an offense is suspect, etc. A post game would be great, but not now...not yet.

I made a post in this thread on why I think it's valuable to develop a post game. Just to sum it up, Rose's physical advantage over basically every PG makes him a perfect candidate for post play.

This past season Rose cut down on his mid-range attempts (coach Thibodeau recognizes the low value of mid range jumpers) and a higher percentage of Rose's mid-range jumpers were forced/contested/etc. In previous seasons, Rose was at or near the top in attempts from mid-range as well as FG% from mid-range. His jump shot is very good from mid-range.



Also, his criticism is very fair. His FG% was a career low last year, when you attempt that many 3s and only make 32%(and that is your career high) you need to stop shooting them or take less regardless of if you have improved.

33% from 3 is equivalent to shooting 50% on two point field attempts. I'm okay with Rose taking that shot as it also expands the area Derrick's opponents have to defend, opening the court for teammates and/or creating better driving lanes. With more practice/experience and better conditioning, I expect Rose's 3P% to rise.



He is turnover prone.

Rose had one of the lowest turnover rates of any PG last year, lower than Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rondo, Westrbrook or anyone considered to be in Rose's league.



He is NOT humble despite what many believe. He may say the correct things many times, but he is in no way humble. I know many people that went to Memphis and played with him. The guy is conceited as Lebron, yet everyone was under the same guise that he was humble as well.


I don't know if humble is the right word to describe any NBA player. That said, Rose came up through AAU not willing to shot. It got to the point where one of his coaches (I believe his HS coach) had to enact a rule, if Rose did not attempt at least 10 field goals in the game, the entire team would have to run.

When Rose first joined the Bulls, he deferred. It was not until the Bulls let go of Hinrich and Gordon that Rose really exploded and took control of the ball. I don't know your Memphis friends but they would've only played a season with Derrick as opposed to everything we know about Rose in HS/AAU and the NBA.

oh and there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-BK1DKn73s



Rose DOES deflect. To blame his poor playoff performance on conditioning may be true, but it is also definitely an excuse in the way he presented it.

I didn't take it as that, and I remember the thread on PSD with that quote and it seemed like most people recognized it as Rose shouldering the blame, recognizing his own weakness, and vowing to correct said weakness.

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 08:40 PM
Off topic and homerish but nash should be MVP until he retires or signs with another team.

Nash is so underrated that it should be considered a federal offense.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 08:48 PM
I was reading nbaplaybook the other day and they had a segment on how teams defend certain PGs running a Pick and Roll:

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/10/31/how-top-point-guards-in-the-pick-and-roll-are-defended-and-why/



You can't rack up a Chris Paul assist totals when your teammates miss open shots (unless your scorekeeper inflates stats ;))

I bet Paul would take Rose's teammates 7 days out of 7 if given the chance compared to what he has.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 08:57 PM
I forget how often he actually posts. I think Kobe had about twice as many attempts at a moderately worse efficiency. Regardless, I do agree that Lebron DEFINITELY should look to improve his post game further and utilize it.

I detest Lebron, so it is odd to defend him, but it makes sense to learn to shoot when your best attribute is getting to the rim. It makes getting to the rim easier for a player like that because he will have the ball in his hands the majority of the time. Posting is not always an option until he decides to finally play off ball more.



hahaha....funny:rolleyes:

atleast we can agree on something huh?

But i dont detest lebron, i pity him, i used to dislike him, but i just pity him now, he didnt realize the results of his actions for the things he says and does, and the way he acts

Raph12
11-09-2011, 08:57 PM
I would say he had a top 5 performance last regular season, pretty sure top 3/4 too.

Lebron, Dwight, Wade, CP3 and Durant all played better than Rose last season; Rose was playing on the same level, yet still slightly beneath Dirk and Kobe.


But stuff like that is what Derrick says. If you don't like what fans say, pick on the fans, not the players.

I don't pick on Rose, the fact that fans say "he's all the Bulls have" or "he was the most deserving for MVP" is exactly why I point out all of his flaws and all of his teammates good qualities... It's to shine perspective onto the issue so that those ill-informed fans can see both sides.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 08:58 PM
Nash is so underrated that it should be considered a federal offense.

i want to see him have a chance at a ring before he retires, like if they amnesty him and the lakers pick him up or something

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 08:59 PM
I bet Paul would take Rose's teammates 7 days out of 7 if given the chance compared to what he has.

I bet you are right about that.

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:01 PM
I made a post in this thread on why I think it's valuable to develop a post game. Just to sum it up, Rose's physical advantage over basically every PG makes him a perfect candidate for post play.

Agreed. Just not yet. He still should become complete as a PG if he is to be the PG IMO.

This past season Rose cut down on his mid-range attempts (coach Thibodeau recognizes the low value of mid range jumpers) and a higher percentage of Rose's mid-range jumpers were forced/contested/etc. In previous seasons, Rose was at or near the top in attempts from mid-range as well as FG% from mid-range. His jump shot is very good from mid-range.

His J is very good from mid range and only suspect from outside the arc. He took nearly 5 from outside the arc though, and yes I acknowledge that 33% from outside is the same as 50% from 2, it still provides more opportunities for rebounds. Thus, more chances for the other team to look for early breaks. Additionally, to warrant shooting that volume of 3s you need to shoot them on the plus side of 33% IMO. In contrast, after the AS break he shot below 30% while shooting above 5.5 per game.

33% from 3 is equivalent to shooting 50% on two point field attempts. I'm okay with Rose taking that shot as it also expands the area Derrick's opponents have to defend, opening the court for teammates and/or creating better driving lanes. With more practice/experience and better conditioning, I expect Rose's 3P% to rise.

I hope it does. That is really all I can say.

Rose had one of the lowest turnover rates of any PG last year, lower than Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rondo, Westrbrook or anyone considered to be in Rose's league.

I would have to confirm this. However, his turnover total was higher than a few of theirs if I remember correctly. Still, I concede if you are correct on this.

I don't know if humble is the right word to describe any NBA player. That said, Rose came up through AAU not willing to shot. It got to the point where one of his coaches (I believe his HS coach) had to enact a rule, if Rose did not attempt at least 10 field goals in the game, the entire team would have to run.

When Rose first joined the Bulls, he deferred. It was not until the Bulls let go of Hinrich and Gordon that Rose really exploded and took control of the ball. I don't know your Memphis friends but they would've only played a season with Derrick as opposed to everything we know about Rose in HS/AAU and the NBA.

oh and there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-BK1DKn73s

Humble probably is never the right word to use for any star and most players. I definitely agree.

I didn't take it as that, and I remember the thread on PSD with that quote and it seemed like most people recognized it as Rose shouldering the blame, recognizing his own weakness, and vowing to correct said weakness.

I definitely took it as him taking the easy way out. A better statement would have been that it was tough, and he was outplayed. That's it. An MVP candidate let alone winner should not have said he was not conditioned. Kobe is significantly older and battling injuries, yet has he ever said he was tired? Kobe has played in many more games each season plus the offseason in 08 and still never made that excuse. I am just throwing Kobe out as an example since he is used so frequently. To give a better example, Magic won his first year and never complained of fatigue. Literally EVERY player is tired, so claiming fatigue is like saying you did not or should not have made it as far as you did.

too lazy to do the multi-quote response

evadatam5150
11-09-2011, 09:06 PM
on a side note, whats with all the man love in soccer after a goal? i understand the emotion and stuff, but do you really have to voluntarily make pile up ontop of a bunch of men and rub their face?

I'm liking where you're going with this..!!!!! :clap:

Do continue, please.. I mean you haven't even touched on the *Oil Checking* or the jock *Power Tug*.. :D

ChiSox219
11-09-2011, 09:10 PM
too lazy to do the multi-quote response

Here's a link to the turnover rates, only 8 PGs finished better, none of them particularly good:

http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2011&gp=40&mins=20


On 3 pointers: I'd rather Rose be hitting 33% from 3 than 40% from mid range. I was happy to see his mid range attempts drop and three point attempts raise. The quantity he took while maintaining the 33% is encouraging for the future.

Also, the two most often offensive rebounded shot types are at the basket and 3 pointers. You are more likely to see a fastbreak from Rose missing a layup than missing a 3.

YungDaSensai
11-09-2011, 09:20 PM
lets go by age first:

22 yr old lebron averaged 27,6.7 and 6 assists

22 year old rose averaged 25,4, and 7.7 assists

now by year:

year 3 lebron: 31,7, and 6 on a team that featured: donyell marshall, big Z, drew gooden,damon jones,eric snow, and larry hughes

year 3 rose:averaged 25,4, and 7.7 assists on a team with: boozer,deng,noah,gibson,korver,thomas,asik,brewer

:shrug:

look at 2007 lebron(aka 22 yr old lebron)'s
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

lebron played with crap, got better stats, rose played with good players, not great, and got good stats

lemme know when you have a valid argument tho

Yea you got'em with this one

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:21 PM
atleast we can agree on something huh?

But i dont detest lebron, i pity him, i used to dislike him, but i just pity him now, he didnt realize the results of his actions for the things he says and does, and the way he acts

Honestly, I am beginning to respect him more for his choice. I detest his immaturity more than anything. However, I respect that he chose MIA because it was what HE wanted to do. Say what you will about race, but I read an article stating maybe he is so hated because the way he went about it, but also because his actions were so diverse to the mold. I cannot find the ESPN article, but it basically said just viewing the event from a different perspective maybe the decision was so disliked because it was a young black man saying he is in control of his life. That he is no longer bound by a league owner and that no man, white black or indifferent, could shape his life for him. The concept that he could be so hated for self empowerment never crossed my mind until then, and the theory alone made me have some respect for him.

I cannot say I pity him because he is a grown man. He should have awareness and maturity enough to be mindful of his actions...or do the Charles Barkley thing and say F it. lol

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:25 PM
Here's a link to the turnover rates, only 8 PGs finished better, none of them particularly good:

http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2011&gp=40&mins=20


On 3 pointers: I'd rather Rose be hitting 33% from 3 than 40% from mid range. I was happy to see his mid range attempts drop and three point attempts raise. The quantity he took while maintaining the 33% is encouraging for the future.

Also, the two most often offensive rebounded shot types are at the basket and 3 pointers. You are more likely to see a fastbreak from Rose missing a layup than missing a 3.

Very informative and interesting. I hope he continues his development.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 09:26 PM
Honestly, I am beginning to respect him more for his choice. I detest his immaturity more than anything. However, I respect that he chose MIA because it was what HE wanted to do. Say what you will about race, but I read an article stating maybe he is so hated because the way he went about it, but also because his actions were so diverse to the mold. I cannot find the ESPN article, but it basically said just viewing the event from a different perspective maybe the decision was so disliked because it was a young black man saying he is in control of his life. That he is no longer bound by a league owner and that no man, white black or indifferent, could shape his life for him. The concept that he could be so hated for self empowerment never crossed my mind until then, and the theory alone made me have some respect for him.

I cannot say I pity him because he is a grown man. He should have awareness and maturity enough to be mindful of his actions...or do the Charles Barkley thing and say F it. lol

i pity him and the rest of the heat because they only thought that toronto and cleveland would hate them :rolleyes:

they didnt understand the magnitude of their actions at the time

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:27 PM
^IDK. I'm sure someone told them that every team they passed over would feel disdain, but I see your point. I just still can't pity them for it.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 09:30 PM
^IDK. I'm sure someone told them that every team they passed over would feel disdain, but I see your point. I just still can't pity them for it.

he was in a lose-lose situaiton: go back to cleveland, dont win a championship and the teams he passed over hate him, go to another team,cleveland hates him, go to the Heat with 2 other stars, the entire world hates him

he had no choice

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:38 PM
^This is true. However, those that hate him don't matter to him. His name will suffer, but rings cure that. His name alone draws critics and publicity, but as they say there is no such thing as bad publicity.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 09:40 PM
^This is true. However, those that hate him don't matter to him. His name will suffer, but rings cure that. His name alone draws critics and publicity, but as they say there is no such thing as bad publicity.

yea, lets see him win 3 finals games first tho, his career high for finals series wins is currently 2

baby steps

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 09:46 PM
yea, lets see him win 3 finals games first tho, his career high for finals series wins is currently 2

baby steps

Indeed! Personally, I hope he never gets there because I do feel he is too immature. Still, we digress from the topic. lol. Back to Rose, some criticism will always be there. Criticism can be very positive. If there was nothing to criticize, players would probably have no reason to continue to develop.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 09:54 PM
Indeed! Personally, I hope he never gets there because I do feel he is too immature. Still, we digress from the topic. lol. Back to Rose, some criticism will always be there. Criticism can be very positive. If there was nothing to criticize, players would probably have no reason to continue to develop.

yea, but im mainly talking about the hate, its stupid to criticize him and say he cant win or he doesnt play his position properly when his stats say the complete opposite, his stats have gone up in every category every year

if people want to criticize him, i find it idiotic, heck, i might as well make a thread about demarcus cousins talking about how he needs a better post game etc. it doesnt make sense, these players are babies in the NBA

truther
11-09-2011, 10:05 PM
yea, but im mainly talking about the hate, its stupid to criticize him and say he cant win or he doesnt play his position properly when his stats say the complete opposite, his stats have gone up in every category every year

if people want to criticize him, i find it idiotic, heck, i might as well make a thread about demarcus cousins talking about how he needs a better post game etc. it doesnt make sense, these players are babies in the NBA

if he's a baby than i don't know how you can consider him top 5, its like a son who goes of own his own than comes back crying to his parents complaining the real world was too tough,if you want to be mentioned among the men than you gotta start being treated like them, cousins ins't considered a top player in this league so you can say that for him he's just isn't ready rose on the other hand you would say is ready to be there with the upper echelon of players and than in that case you can't really be using excuses for him when he falls short. he's simply isn't good enough... yet

barreleffact
11-09-2011, 10:08 PM
yea, but im mainly talking about the hate, its stupid to criticize him and say he cant win or he doesnt play his position properly when his stats say the complete opposite, his stats have gone up in every category every year

if people want to criticize him, i find it idiotic, heck, i might as well make a thread about demarcus cousins talking about how he needs a better post game etc. it doesnt make sense, these players are babies in the NBA

We have different interpretations of the word criticism. You describe blind hate. People said for years MJ would never win as a scoring champion. They doubted Wade during his injuries. People love to throw around hate, as awkward as that sounds.

Criticism is different. To me it just means you say that he did not deserve the MVP because X had more impact, or he still needs to improve a skill because of whatever. To claim he cannot win or that he is a black hole (like many used to label ZBo) is unfounded based on his age and just in general. People said Dirk would never win too. Chalk it up to the game I suppose.

As far as saying Rose doesn't play PG, that is dependent on the person. I feel he is a SG in a PG body much like AI. I just prefer my PG t distribute ala Paul, Rondo, Deron, etc. It's just a preference.

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 10:18 PM
if he's a baby than i don't know how you can consider him top 5, its like a son who goes of own his own than comes back crying to his parents complaining the real world was too tough,if you want to be mentioned among the men than you gotta start being treated like them, cousins ins't considered a top player in this league so you can say that for him he's just isn't ready rose on the other hand you would say is ready to be there with the upper echelon of players and than in that case you can't really be using excuses for him when he falls short. he's simply isn't good enough... yet

try convincing someone else tho

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 10:22 PM
We have different interpretations of the word criticism. You describe blind hate. People said for years MJ would never win as a scoring champion. They doubted Wade during his injuries. People love to throw around hate, as awkward as that sounds.

Criticism is different. To me it just means you say that he did not deserve the MVP because X had more impact, or he still needs to improve a skill because of whatever. To claim he cannot win or that he is a black hole (like many used to label ZBo) is unfounded based on his age and just in general. People said Dirk would never win too. Chalk it up to the game I suppose.

As far as saying Rose doesn't play PG, that is dependent on the person. I feel he is a SG in a PG body much like AI. I just prefer my PG t distribute ala Paul, Rondo, Deron, etc. It's just a preference.

well, i think by now u see where im coming from regardless of the wordage right?

ClippersE.G
11-09-2011, 10:49 PM
i agree, except where u say boozer sucks, i believe he wasnt used properly, the next season we will see if he does suck, because he only played 1 year with us

luol deng is a great defender, great mid range shooter, but he isnt a guy we can depend on for 20 a night

keith bogans?? we got torches and pitch forks ready for him

noah, hes overated defensvely imo, but a very very good center in todays NBA

all we need is OJ mayo, or hamilton, and a backup pg, and i think we can show the league what we are capable of

Oh yeah I forgot about Deng...but that little injured stint is going to keep him from being the type of player he was before his contract in my opinion. And I give Noah all the defensive credit in the world. As far as Boozer goes...I would cringe whenever he would shoot his J with that crazy amount of ARc because it usually meant he was going to miss. He cant dunk and becase of this he tries to lay the ball up softly and it either gets blocked or if anyone does as little as put up a hand he will miss it...for a PF he is horrible around the rim if it is not a wide open layup. And even though he is in China, I think the Bulls could use a guy like Jr Smith. That and I have no idea why they dont use Rasual butler.

Team*Chicago
11-09-2011, 10:54 PM
i know, but i just want to know if there is any LEGIT criticism of him, something that is logical and actually makes sense. thats what i want out of this thread

You don't have to defend Rose, people on here that are non-Bulls fan, haters and heat fans already know Rose is the best PG in the NBA and the world and they've seen things our(Bulls fans) way by proving them wrong argument after argument especially when there's a Rose vs Westbrooks, Rose vs Wall, Rose vs CP3, Rose vs D.Will, Rose vs Jennings, Rose vs Beasley and Rose vs whoever.

gwrighter
11-09-2011, 11:24 PM
Here's a link to the turnover rates, only 8 PGs finished better, none of them particularly good:

http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2011&gp=40&mins=20


On 3 pointers: I'd rather Rose be hitting 33% from 3 than 40% from mid range. I was happy to see his mid range attempts drop and three point attempts raise. The quantity he took while maintaining the 33% is encouraging for the future.

Also, the two most often offensive rebounded shot types are at the basket and 3 pointers. You are more likely to see a fastbreak from Rose missing a layup than missing a 3.


turnover rate means didly. Rose has the lowest turnover rate because he doesn't pass the ball lol. one of the lowest assist rates for a PG

http://www.hoopdata.com/passingstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=20

RekeHavoc
11-09-2011, 11:32 PM
You don't have to defend Rose, people on here that are non-Bulls fan, haters and heat fans already know Rose is the best PG in the NBA and the world and they've seen things our(Bulls fans) way by proving them wrong argument after argument especially when there's a Rose vs Westbrooks, Rose vs Wall, Rose vs CP3, Rose vs D.Will, Rose vs Jennings, Rose vs Beasley and Rose vs whoever.
actually, i believe that cp3 is the best point guard in the NBA, but rose is the best player at the pg position

makes sense if you think about it in regards to the supposed "true meaning of a pg" and how they are supposed to be more pass first

but rose is the best player at the pg position

Raps08-09 Champ
11-10-2011, 12:20 AM
I only criticize Rose because if I didn't, there'd be too much love for him.

Trueblue2
11-10-2011, 05:03 AM
The only legit criticism of rose I can think of is that he's a score first PG, with Noah, boozer, and deng on the floor at the same time he could have played the distributor role and gotten the defense to focus on other players and not double team rose.

I don't necessarily agree with that argument because that's his game and that's how he had to play to carry his team, but that could be where the (rational) criticism is coming from.

ChiSox219
11-10-2011, 05:19 AM
turnover rate means didly. Rose has the lowest turnover rate because he doesn't pass the ball lol. one of the lowest assist rates for a PG

http://www.hoopdata.com/passingstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=20

You are confusing assist with passes.

naps
11-10-2011, 05:33 AM
LOL. This guy was banned and now comes back and create a thread crying about Rose getting criticized while at the same time he's bashing the best player on the planet? LMAO! I am expecting his life is not gonna be too long on this forum. Another ban is on the way.

abe_froman
11-10-2011, 05:43 AM
still riding the wave of an irrational backlash due to an early spamming of the general forum by some overzealous fans years ago...such things dont die hard among fans

hell wasnt til the past few years that kobe bounced back to be respected from the beating he took because overzealous laker fans proclaiming his greatness early and often,annoyed them.missing out of appreciating his prime because the masses were to busy being in backlash mode still.

same vein here.most not allowing themselves to not even give an inch,any sort of grudging respect or praise for the sake of stuck in backlash mode.not being seen as giving into hype,that giving any would be seen as those that hyped would "win"

are there legit criticisms? sure ,but they are highlighted and made out to be bigger/worse then what they are and any good being downplayed as much as possible if they cant be spun to into a negative.fair/honest look is sadly going to escape him for the time being

bbcmillionaire
11-10-2011, 06:06 AM
Lol its called the chicago effect, anytime one of our teams/players do well, we get stones thrown at us. Sure we have some crazy fans, but what fan base doesnt? To the op, just get used to it and grow thick skin

RekeHavoc
11-10-2011, 06:32 AM
Lol its called the chicago effect, anytime one of our teams/players do well, we get stones thrown at us. Sure we have some crazy fans, but what fan base doesnt? To the op, just get used to it and grow thick skin

im asking them if they have a valid reason for it

Chronz
11-10-2011, 06:38 AM
You are confusing assist with passes.
If your passes dont lead to assists, make better passes.

Not trying to say Rose is turnover prone but there is no denying to correlation between turnovers and assists. Rose in Rondo's role would amount to Rondo like turnover rates.

abe_froman
11-10-2011, 06:41 AM
im asking them if they have a valid reason for it

there are valid criticisms,but they arent the reason for it,those are ready made excuses to reenforce their orgial opinion of him.it'll be something like this:

efficiency-say he became the most eff scorer in the league,they're argument will change to it not mattering all of a sudden

if he lead the league in assists then suddenly assists will become assists arent a good/true way to judge pg's(i already think this to a degree,but it's an argument alot believe right now)

...understand? its the old "i dislike whatever he is,even if he/it changes.so i'll change what i like/dislike to fit my hate for him"

Red222
11-10-2011, 07:30 AM
there are valid criticisms,but they arent the reason for it,those are ready made excuses to reenforce their orgial opinion of him.it'll be something like this:

efficiency-say he became the most eff scorer in the league,they're argument will change to it not mattering all of a sudden

if he lead the league in assists then suddenly assists will become assists arent a good/true way to judge pg's(i already think this to a degree,but it's an argument alot believe right now)

...understand? its the old "i dislike whatever he is,even if he/it changes.so i'll change what i like/dislike to fit my hate for him"

nice summary of the thought process by some here

RekeHavoc
11-10-2011, 08:26 AM
thanks for all the responses guys, i htink this discussion has run ites course: 56% believe the criticism of rose has been fair, 43% say its unfair

this is one of the few discussion threads ive had on psd in which people didnt come in and change the topic 10 different times

anyways, thanks for the responses!

ModernDaySavage
11-10-2011, 10:55 AM
everyone is entitled to their opinion

i dont believe dirk deserved his mvp, it shld have gone to nash

my top 5:

wade
lebron
dirk
howard
rose

That's why. People actually believe he is a top 5 player in the NBA and a better PG than Chris Paul. Most people will read stuff like that over and over each day on here and just truly grow a hatred for a certain player. But if you're looking for reasons beyond just being annoyed by fans, there really aren't any at all. D rose is a very humbled kid and imo he has an amazing career ahead of him, but most people overlook that stuff.

To answer the question I believe its unwarranted as a raw player, but because of the media/fans he will always receive criticism no matter what.

ChiSox219
11-10-2011, 11:40 AM
If your passes dont lead to assists, make better passes.

Not trying to say Rose is turnover prone but there is no denying to correlation between turnovers and assists. Rose in Rondo's role would amount to Rondo like turnover rates.

Rose's passes do lead to assists. With the rate of double teams Rose faces, teams are ready to rotate to the open man and it's on that guy to create the assist or hit the shot. Assists arent created when you are doubled 24 feet from the basket.

Regarding the Rondo comment, total hypothetical and Rondo is so one dimensional that teams force him into his high turnover rate, it's not just because he passes a lot. Defenses can't do that against Rose, he'd kill it in Rondo's place.

Meaze_Gibson
11-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Rose deserved MVP last year. He may not be the best point guard in the league BUT when he played the supposed best pgs, he outshined them. He may not be the best player in the league BUT when he went against the supposed best players, his team won. Dwight Howard should have been next but his inability to hit free throws knocks him out. As a heat fan, I def respect what he did. MVP was deserved.

mjm07
11-10-2011, 03:42 PM
yes, if you team up with 2 other stars: ex.pierce, garnett, allen, bron,wade,bosh i would definately have to take you into less consideration in comparison to players playing with 1 star or 0.

its pretty simple really, look at boozers stats in the 2nd half of the season and tell me if he played like a star

luol deng is probably my favorite bull, he isnt a star, but hes one of the best 3's in the league imo top 7 or so

So since Boozer didn't perform up to his past All Star level in the 2nd half that automatically makes him not that good anymore. (I could've told the Bulls that before he signed) and of course Luol Deng is obviously not an all-star just plain ol' solid, at best, starter. Lets not forget that Noah was a finalist for DPOY but he's def not an all star either.and didn't score enough. We all know MVP is geared more about scoring and less about defense.

Now i see why D Rose won the MVP. :rolleyes:

I wonder who would even challenge him for MVP next year? :confused:

Chronz
11-10-2011, 05:10 PM
Rose's passes do lead to assists. With the rate of double teams Rose faces, teams are ready to rotate to the open man and it's on that guy to create the assist or hit the shot. Assists arent created when you are doubled 24 feet from the basket.

Regarding the Rondo comment, total hypothetical and Rondo is so one dimensional that teams force him into his high turnover rate, it's not just because he passes a lot. Defenses can't do that against Rose, he'd kill it in Rondo's place.
The point is that they dont lead to assists as often as the others. Im not seeing the point about him being doubled, they double him because hes a scorer that teams want to make a passer, thats basically the point Im making.


As for the hypothetical I guess we will just disagree there, Rose would kill it because hes a better player but in all that I have seen I dont see someone with that kind of vision.