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AsiandudePH
11-08-2011, 07:24 PM
Link to video:
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/11/08/20111108_230p_labor_sot.nba/

EDIT*Added an article


NEW YORK – After meeting with player representatives of 29 of the NBA’s 30 teams, Players Association officials reiterated their refusal to accept the league’s latest labor proposal with the hope the sides can resume negotiations ahead of the owners’ Wednesday evening deadline.

“Our orders are clear, the current offer that is on the table from the NBA is not one that we can accept,” union president Derek Fisher(notes) said after the three-hour meeting.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_players_meeting_110811

ink
11-08-2011, 07:28 PM
Maybe we're on the way to a better deal: 53-47%, hard cap, rolled back salaries.

This user comment on ESPN summed it up:


Wow. Hey Fisher and Hunter, here is a quick economic lesson for you:

50% of $1 billion is a lot more than 52% of nothing!

DerekRE_3
11-08-2011, 07:34 PM
Sweet. I'll go back to worshipping Jim Harbaugh now.

GiantsSwaGG
11-08-2011, 07:38 PM
:dance:

iggypop123
11-08-2011, 07:43 PM
a deal is ready to be made. it is just a matter of the hardline owners. the players went down as far as they can go. 50 50, they caved on the stern suggestion. now its basically up to the system to be fixed a bit and the deal should be signed tomorrow if they want to. im worried though that stern dosnt have the owners in check. he is their puppet not the other way around. its down to 2 issues in my analysis. sign and trade for tax paying teams. dont know why this is a big one for the owners, the only ones done by tax payers have been marion to dallas. that scares them? and the one that does extend and trade aka the melo rule. that should be banned and my guess is the union could cave on that because they want the MLE for tax payers. no mini exception. if thats done stern will run to the podium to announce its a done deal.

smith&wesson
11-08-2011, 07:45 PM
the players are going to regret not taking this offer. its a dam shame. :mad:

oldfishermen
11-08-2011, 07:47 PM
The diamond earring stores and tattoo artists are very disappointed the players did not take a league wide vote on the latest owner’s proposal.

Punk
11-08-2011, 07:47 PM
They reject the proposal itself, however they are willing to go to 50-50. They will meet tomorrow to talk about the system which is the last hurdle.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
11-08-2011, 07:50 PM
a deal is ready to be made. it is just a matter of the hardline owners. the players went down as far as they can go. 50 50, they caved on the stern suggestion. now its basically up to the system to be fixed a bit and the deal should be signed tomorrow if they want to. im worried though that stern dosnt have the owners in check. he is their puppet not the other way around. its down to 2 issues in my analysis. sign and trade for tax paying teams. dont know why this is a big one for the owners, the only ones done by tax payers have been marion to dallas. that scares them? and the one that does extend and trade aka the melo rule. that should be banned and my guess is the union could cave on that because they want the MLE for tax payers. no mini exception. if thats done stern will run to the podium to announce its a done deal.

I'm pretty confused right now... How is a deal ready to be made if the NBPA just rejected Sterns offer?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
11-08-2011, 07:52 PM
They reject the proposal itself, however they are willing to go to 50-50. They will meet tomorrow to talk about the system which is the last hurdle.

So they've been trying to get 52% this whole time... reject Sterns offer of 51% and now are willing to accept 50%? I'm confused A F right now. :crazy:

GoPacers33
11-08-2011, 07:52 PM
They want to make decisions to the mle and other contract things but they agreed to go down to 50-50 on the bri^^

iggypop123
11-08-2011, 07:54 PM
I'm pretty confused right now... How is a deal ready to be made if the NBPA just rejected Sterns offer?

they said no thanks, but we are set on bri lets talk system. if you want to talk lets talk. insiders have said stern wants to make a deal. hunter said he will call him. they can negotiate tomorrow. all thats left is the system. thats why i said its ready to be made. of course if the owners just hold their ground its gonna fall apart. its like the players say lets negotate the owners how about no and thats the end of that.

smith&wesson
11-08-2011, 07:59 PM
They reject the proposal itself, however they are willing to go to 50-50. They will meet tomorrow to talk about the system which is the last hurdle.

Lets call that the mj and hard line owners hurdle.

GoPacers33
11-08-2011, 08:09 PM
Stern said on nbatv that there will be another offer tomorrow but they isn't much wiggle room for "system changes"

AsiandudePH
11-08-2011, 08:10 PM
At the end of the day, it's us fans who are really suffering with games being lost. It's a damn shame.

mzgrizz
11-08-2011, 08:13 PM
I'd like to ***** slap the lot of ALL of them !

Mr Costanza
11-08-2011, 08:21 PM
Its too bad that once this is all over all will be forgiven and the fans will spend just as much money as they ever would have.

I wish there was a way to unite the fans and show them that doing this is unacceptable. Unfortunately its just common practice with pro sports and labor negociations.

Publically they will apoligize to us saying we are really the ones who are hurting from this. Behind closed doors they are saying how we are loyal to them and will continue to support them regardless to how long this will take. They will put "thank you fans!" on the court, have a few more giveaways at the games and next year will be a record year for ticket and merchandise sales.

blahblahyoutoo
11-08-2011, 08:27 PM
At the end of the day, it's us fans who are really suffering with games being lost. It's a damn shame.

no, the local businesses that depend on games are really suffering.
i care a lot more about my local economy, much more than any enjoyment i could possibly get out of watching a basketball game.

CousinsEvansDUO
11-08-2011, 08:27 PM
If the NBA don't compromise with them and take this rejection as an insult and continue with their promise and start implying the 47%,... then I'm sure the season will be lost 100%.

I'm already begging to cry now. We were suppose to get the kings for one more season but now they will move to Anaheim and we won't get to see Evans/Cousins dominate the lakers :|

gotoHcarolina52
11-08-2011, 08:29 PM
If the NBA don't compromise with them and take this rejection as an insult and continue with their promise and start implying the 47%,... then I'm sure the season will be lost 100%.

This exactly. If the owners are reasonable, a deal will get done tomorrow. If not, goodbye NBA.

Kevj77
11-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Watching the videos in the link the OP provided it seem the players are willing to compromise on BRI, but now system issues are the sticking point. This isn't the time for owners to take a hardline stance a deal could be close.

If these talks fall apart this time it will be on the owners not the players. They have already made concessions about contracts length and the luxury tax.

smith&wesson
11-08-2011, 08:43 PM
Its too bad that once this is all over all will be forgiven and the fans will spend just as much money as they ever would have.

I wish there was a way to unite the fans and show them that doing this is unacceptable. Unfortunately its just common practice with pro sports and labor negociations.

Publically they will apoligize to us saying we are really the ones who are hurting from this. Behind closed doors they are saying how we are loyal to them and will continue to support them regardless to how long this will take. They will put "thank you fans!" on the court, have a few more giveaways at the games and next year will be a record year for ticket and merchandise sales.

when the post office goes on strike in your town do you take it personal ? or the garbage man ?

you shouldnt take it personal. this is a dispute between the nba and its union. it had to be done.

we all love the sport and thats why were here posting in the forums. its not because were bitter and we think that the nba is doing this to spite us. they have serious problems that need to be sorted out. from financial to systematic issues that need to be adressed. its for the good of the game and the future of the league. its become a **** show no doubt but what do we do give up on our teams ? forget about nba basketball ? thats like asking me to change my religion. if i was religious.

Mr Costanza
11-08-2011, 08:50 PM
when the post office goes on strike in your town do you take it personal ? or the garbage man ?

you shouldnt take it personal. this is a dispute between the nba and its union. it had to be done.

we all love the sport and thats why were here posting in the forums. its not because were bitter and we think that the nba is doing this to spite us. they have serious problems that need to be sorted out. from financial to systematic issues that need to be adressed. its for the good of the game and the future of the league. its become a **** show no doubt but what do we do give up on our teams ? forget about nba basketball ? thats like asking me to change my religion. if i was religious.

If the garbage men went in strike your damn right id take it personally. The taxes i pay this county if they went on strike i dont know what i would do.
But i do see your point.

ewmania
11-08-2011, 09:07 PM
if players are willing to go 50-50 and drop down 7% than they should be able get what they want out of the system

seems like owners want to have they cake and eat it too... not only do they want to gain more BRI but they want to stop players from having freedom.. thats not a fair deal

GiantsSwaGG
11-08-2011, 09:13 PM
Derek Fisher is a *****

SteBO
11-08-2011, 09:19 PM
There won't be a hard cap anyway, so the players at least get that, but as far as everything else, the owners have won already. I don't really blame the players for rejecting this offer, but at the same time this is a very risky decision. The owners aren't being fair and are even being a little spiteful, but what can you do....that's the owners for you. They want to be rewarded for inept management...what a joke.

ink
11-08-2011, 09:20 PM
This exactly. If the owners are reasonable, a deal will get done tomorrow. If not, goodbye NBA.

The league needs change. The owners have actually compromised completely, giving up the hard cap they went into these negotiations wanting. It's doubtful they're going to waste much more time with this ridiculous tinkering.

ewmania
11-08-2011, 09:28 PM
The league needs change. The owners have actually compromised completely, giving up the hard cap they went into these negotiations wanting. It's doubtful they're going to waste much more time with this ridiculous tinkering.

the hard-cap to me was a decoy... they low key wanted the BRI more than anything

and now they are trying to see how far they can fit they hand in the cookie jar

Kevj77
11-08-2011, 09:29 PM
If there is no NBA it's time to blame the right people the hardline owners. The players have made comcession on BRI, contract length, luxury tax and the size of the mle already. Big market owners are willing to pay higher luxury tax and share more revenue. At this point it is all about hardline owners.

They will never get a hard cap, I doubt they will get better than 50/50. It seems players biggest concern now is the right to keep all teams viable options for free agency and trades. What hardline owners really want is to restrict player movement.

xxplayerxx23
11-08-2011, 09:35 PM
It wasnt 51 percent they rejected it was up to 51percent, It could of been 49 percent I dont blame the players for rejceting Im just sad I want this NBa season. Hopefully the owners could do something And they can get a deal done doubt it. :[

smith&wesson
11-08-2011, 09:39 PM
the hard-cap to me was a decoy... they low key wanted the BRI more than anything

and now they are trying to see how far they can fit they hand in the cookie jar

its theyre own cookie jar though they own it!!

the players should have taken the deal. if this thing goes to court theres no way they come out on top or with a better deal then the one they just rejected

VillaMaravilla
11-08-2011, 09:43 PM
no, the local businesses that depend on games are really suffering.
i care a lot more about my local economy, much more than any enjoyment i could possibly get out of watching a basketball game.

very rarely i agree with a Heat fan but this post my friend is one of the best when its comes to this whole mess because its real life and everyone is forgetting how many people are hurting financially over this lockout, forget about the player and owners their just fine and if they aint its their own damn fault, worry about the the mom or dad who is not working or is making less due to this lockout

ink
11-08-2011, 09:44 PM
the hard-cap to me was a decoy... they low key wanted the BRI more than anything

and now they are trying to see how far they can fit they hand in the cookie jar

I really don't think that is what is happening.


If there is no NBA it's time to blame the right people the hardline owners. The players have made comcession on BRI, contract length, luxury tax and the size of the mle already. Big market owners are willing to pay higher luxury tax and share more revenue. At this point it is all about hardline owners.

They will never get a hard cap, I doubt they will get better than 50/50. It seems players biggest concern now is the right to keep all teams viable options for free agency and trades. What hardline owners really want is to restrict player movement.

There's no reason to blame either side. These are business negotiations between two parties with completely different and conflicting ideas about what they want from the league. The deal they've reached is terrible so I am hoping it collapses. Something like 79% of North Americans surveyed today couldn't care less if there's an NBA. So it doesn't look like many but the hardcore will miss the league. I know I'm not concerned and am happy to wait it out.

king4day
11-08-2011, 09:52 PM
I just saw on ESPN bottom line that the players are willing to accept 50/50 but with more concessions.
Anyone know anything about this? Or what it means?
I wonder if this is what the players will bring up in the meeting tomorrow. Owners better not botch this.

PC
11-08-2011, 09:58 PM
I just saw on ESPN bottom line that the players are willing to accept 50/50 but with more concessions.
Anyone know anything about this? Or what it means?
I wonder if this is what the players will bring up in the meeting tomorrow. Owners better not botch this.

System issues mainly

ewmania
11-08-2011, 10:00 PM
its theyre own cookie jar though they own it!!

the players should have taken the deal. if this thing goes to court theres no way they come out on top or with a better deal then the one they just rejected

technically its the NBA's cookie jar not the team owners cookie jar... owners can be replaced just like players and coaches and gm's, etc.

so you think players should not only give up a high percent in BRI, but also be forced to play where they don't wanna play because they are stopping big market teams from affording these players... that's insane

heatwave
11-08-2011, 10:01 PM
these guys are fighting over millions and the 99% would be happy with a couple hundred ridiculous the people that live from this to eat and feed their families in the surrounding areas are the ones who will suffer .

xxplayerxx23
11-08-2011, 10:02 PM
You would think with the owners getting a 50 50 split in the Bri they would listen about system issues but they prob wont :facepalm:

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 10:04 PM
Didn't see that one coming :shrug:

ink
11-08-2011, 10:04 PM
technically its the NBA's cookie jar not the team owners cookie jar... owners can be replaced just like players and coaches and gm's, etc.

Um, not so much. There are a **** load of players coming out of college every year playing at a very high level. There are only so many billionaires willing to invest in a league that loses money.


so you think players should not only give up a high percent in BRI, but also be forced to play where they don't wanna play because they are stopping big market teams from affording these players... that's insane

They're not giving up anything. That is one of the biggest myths the players are selling people. The old terms of the last CBA are defunct. They are only now negotiating terms. Since there is no current CBA there was a clean slate at the beginning of the negotiating period. Sure there were precedents but it's not the same thing as "giving up" anything. And the deals they ACTUALLY HAVE right now contain terms that are progressively getting worse while the players refuse to understand this point.

ink
11-08-2011, 10:07 PM
You would think with the owners getting a 50 50 split in the Bri they would listen about system issues but they prob wont :facepalm:

Why would they? The system changes they've achieved in this deal are already unacceptably watered down. Watering them down further isn't going to help the NBA.

xxplayerxx23
11-08-2011, 10:08 PM
Why would they? The system changes they've achieved in this deal are already unacceptably watered down. Watering them down further isn't going to help the NBA.

To get this season underway. they got there 50 50 split, Idk Man I just want a season so bad, And it doesnt look good. :cry:

Kevj77
11-08-2011, 10:16 PM
I just saw on ESPN bottom line that the players are willing to accept 50/50 but with more concessions.
Anyone know anything about this? Or what it means?
I wonder if this is what the players will bring up in the meeting tomorrow. Owners better not botch this.It is all about restricting player movement at this point. Mainly involving luxury tax teams being able to use the mle and sign and trades. If the players get that they will take the deal.


Players are willing to negotiate further on the revenue split if they get some concessions on the salary cap system. Without them, Fisher said "we don't see a way of getting a deal done between now and end of business" Wednesday.

The league is seeking to limit the spending options of teams above the luxury tax threshold, believing that would lead to greater competitive balance. Players want all teams to be options for free agents


After previously saying they wouldn't go below 52.5 percent of BRI, players said Saturday they would be willing to go down to about 51 percent, with 1 percent going to a fund for retired player benefits.

They might go even further, but only with some movement on the system issues.

"We're open to discussions, open to negotiation," Fisher said. "We're open minded about potential compromises on our number, but there are things in the system that are not up for discussion that we have to have in order to able to get this season going."

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/08/nba-players-reject-latest-labor-deal-from-owners/print

This is all that is standing in the way of a deal right now. We are so close, but if the hardline owners force Stern to take steps back in negotiations player will probably decertify and kiss the season goodbye.

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Hopefully they meet tomorrow

iggypop123
11-08-2011, 10:18 PM
its theyre own cookie jar though they own it!!

the players should have taken the deal. if this thing goes to court theres no way they come out on top or with a better deal then the one they just rejected

but the players bake the cookie

ewmania
11-08-2011, 10:30 PM
Um, not so much. There are a **** load of players coming out of college every year playing at a very high level. There are only so many billionaires willing to invest in a league that loses money.



They're not giving up anything. That is one of the biggest myths the players are selling people. The old terms of the last CBA are defunct. They are only now negotiating terms. Since there is no current CBA there was a clean slate at the beginning of the negotiating period. Sure there were precedents but it's not the same thing as "giving up" anything. And the deals they ACTUALLY HAVE right now contain terms that are progressively getting worse while the players refuse to understand this point.


yea owners so-called losing money but yet won't show the books on that fact... well with a 50-50 split they will be gaining tons more money now.. so why not make a fair system... the way they want the system has nothing to do with money lost... its basically for players like lebron james to not have anymore summer decisions

Kevj77
11-08-2011, 10:41 PM
Exactly ewmania the hardline owners want guaranteed profits, which has been accomplished by greater revenue sharing by large markets and the players being willing to agree to a 50/50 BRI split. That isn't enough for the hardline owners though, they want to be able to tell players where they can play and that will be the deal breaker for the players.

beasted86
11-08-2011, 10:45 PM
As much as a fan I'd love to see games this year, I can understand the players resolve to get a fair deal and not get strong armed by the NBA owners.

This really tells us all players are together in this and there is no "rank and file" divide in the union, and that players are looking past temporary personal loss and looking out for the benefit of all players future and present.

MJ-BULLS
11-08-2011, 10:50 PM
**** this ****.

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 10:54 PM
It's up to the owners now!

FlakeyFool
11-08-2011, 10:55 PM
Hard



Cap

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 10:57 PM
Owners give in please!

mttwlsn16
11-08-2011, 11:01 PM
idiots

LOOTERX9
11-08-2011, 11:03 PM
As much as a fan I'd love to see games this year, I can understand the players resolve to get a fair deal and not get strong armed by the NBA owners.

This really tells us all players are together in this and there is no "rank and file" divide in the union, and that players are looking past temporary personal loss and looking out for the benefit of all players future and present.


I don't care what side wins or loses. They are slapping fans in the face with this bull ****. They should have done this way before season was bout to start. They have one job and that's to play basketball and entertain fans, if they are not playing games then no fans should care bout any of the NBA players cause they are not doing what we pay to see. They are out of sight, out of mind.

NYKnicksAllDay
11-08-2011, 11:04 PM
Owners give in please!

I feel like that is Fisher's and Hunter's negotiating tactics. Just beg them to give in.

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 11:10 PM
I feel like that is Fisher's and Hunter's negotiating tactics. Just beg them to give in.

Just so long as they Get er done somehow!

Mishmin
11-08-2011, 11:27 PM
I think we lose the season.

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 11:29 PM
I think we lose the season.

Sadly, me too :(

nate2usmc
11-08-2011, 11:43 PM
**** this ****.

This.

But I still have hope until 5pm Wednesday. If no deal after deadline, **** this ****.

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 11:44 PM
If no deal before deadline, no season

likemystylez
11-08-2011, 11:47 PM
If no deal after deadline, no season

do you mean no deal before deadline?

NBA_Starter
11-08-2011, 11:48 PM
do you mean no deal before deadline?

Yea, fixed my bad, I hope they get something done.

itsripcity32
11-09-2011, 12:00 AM
No deal baby!

ss5wil
11-09-2011, 01:10 AM
I say if no deal by Wed. deadline f-this players and the NBAPA and lets get replacement players and get this season started. I'm tired of all this waiting!

Kevj77
11-09-2011, 01:33 AM
The players are negotiating. Replacement players will never be the answer. I watched scab players in the NFL they played to empty stadiums. Losing an entire season would be better than scabs.

ink
11-09-2011, 01:34 AM
well with a 50-50 split they will be gaining tons more money now.. so why not make a fair system... the way they want the system has nothing to do with money lost... its basically for players like lebron james to not have anymore summer decisions

Players like him, yes. It's about every franchise having a fair chance at talent acquisition and retention. 1. it's not just about the money. 2. the luxury tax proposal that's on the table won't work. So, it's better that this deal slides into the abyss. Whatever it takes to improve the compete level across the league. Whatever it takes.

ink
11-09-2011, 01:34 AM
The players are negotiating. Replacement players will never be the answer. I watched scab players in the NFL they played to empty stadiums. Losing an entire season would be better than scabs.

I agree. NCAA will be better than scabs too. It'll be fine.

HuRRiCaNeS324
11-09-2011, 01:35 AM
There goes the season.

From the very bottom of my heart, **** you to every single owner and every single player involved in this. **** YOU!!!

akagiredsuns
11-09-2011, 01:53 AM
This forum must be the only place where people are suffering from NBA games lost cus nearly 75% of NBA fans don't care if there is a lockout. Let the season be cancelled so the players learn a hard lesson. Deal falls through. time to decertify.

akagiredsuns
11-09-2011, 01:55 AM
The whole season can't just get cancelled after tomorrow. Paul Pierce is supposedly leading a group that if the union wants to decertify, they need 130 signatures in a petition. That would take another 45 days or so to deal with. So the season won't be cancelled until at least the start of January. Relax guys. If there is no NBA, you'll live. It is what it is. In other news, Major League Soccer has surpassed the NBA in attendance. :laugh2: NBA = Greedy POS Thugs :facepalm:

Twinsfan24
11-09-2011, 02:00 AM
The whole season can't just get cancelled after tomorrow. Paul Pierce is supposedly leading a group that if the union wants to decertify, they need 130 signatures in a petition. That would take another 45 days or so to deal with. So the season won't be cancelled until at least the start of January. Relax guys. If there is no NBA, you'll live. It is what it is. In other news, Major League Soccer has surpassed the NBA in attendance. :laugh2: NBA = Greedy POS Thugs :facepalm:

:laugh::laugh::laugh: That sucks!

smood999
11-09-2011, 02:12 AM
I say if no deal by Wed. deadline f-this players and the NBAPA and lets get replacement players and get this season started. I'm tired of all this waiting!


The players are negotiating. Replacement players will never be the answer. I watched scab players in the NFL they played to empty stadiums. Losing an entire season would be better than scabs.

replacement players are not allowed anyway...the owners r locking the players out...the players r not on strike..owners wouldnt be able to get replacement players legally....not only that the players, mainly the stars make the league...the league would never be successful without the star players...which is y i understand the players thinking through this..without them there is no league...they r the product, they r what ppl pay to see, they r y ppl buy jerseys, t shirts etc and other bri....put sterlings name on a clippers t shirt and see how much it sells or dolans on a knicks jersey, etc...no one pays for the owners...the owners couldnt make their nba money w/o the players...

gotoHcarolina52
11-09-2011, 02:13 AM
No deal baby!

Exactly. No deal! Am I right, Howie (http://www.mhrw.com/Resourses/mandel-nohair2.jpg)?

smood999
11-09-2011, 02:18 AM
i dont understand how some ppl think the players r just greedy...a good comparison would be movie directors and actors and actresses...the movie makes money based on the actor and the job that is done..yes the movie wouldnt be possible without the director but there is no success w/o the actor...that actor can say screw u and go elsewhere to make another movie...the only thing the nba owners have going for them is that some billionaire somewhere hasnt come along and said to the players ill pay u if u come play for my league...

ink
11-09-2011, 02:24 AM
i dont understand how some ppl think the players r just greedy...a good comparison would be movie directors and actors and actresses...the movie makes money based on the actor and the job that is done..yes the movie wouldnt be possible without the director but there is no success w/o the actor...that actor can say screw u and go elsewhere to make another movie...the only thing the nba owners have going for them is that some billionaire somewhere hasnt come along and said to the players ill pay u if u come play for my league...

Depends on the movie. People didn't go to LOTR or Harry Potter because of the actor, they went because of the story. Same thing goes for a lot of box office hits. There are all different reasons people go. Sometimes the studio that picks the big star actually ruins the movie by casting a big star when they needed a better pick for the lead role. Happens all the time. And movies are only made to bring in box office against other competition. Teams in a league aren't just out to bring in more revenue than the next team. They're in a LEAGUE. That means in financial terms they're PARTNERS.

beasted86
11-09-2011, 02:27 AM
replacement players are not allowed anyway...the owners r locking the players out...the players r not on strike..owners wouldnt be able to get replacement players legally....not only that the players, mainly the stars make the league...the league would never be successful without the star players...which is y i understand the players thinking through this..without them there is no league...they r the product, they r what ppl pay to see, they r y ppl buy jerseys, t shirts etc and other bri....put sterlings name on a clippers t shirt and see how much it sells or dolans on a knicks jersey, etc...no one pays for the owners...the owners couldnt make their nba money w/o the players...

Agreed.

Both sides need eachother, but NBA players are the product. There is no NBA, and more importantly, no NBA of this level of popularity without that 400+ group of guys. They are the best players in the world, and the reason all of us watch this game. They are not replaceable.

I think the majority of people have never been in a union, and are used to their boss telling them 'you are going to be paid $__ if you don't like it there's the door' and they are also looking at it from a standpoint of 'I wish I was making what those players are making... they are greedy'. But I'm sure people in developing countries are also reading about us 'greedy ungrateful Americans' in their news thinking the same thing and laughing about our supposed 'economic struggles'.

I say let this thing go on until both sides can get a deal they feel is reasonable instead of one side or the other getting hosed, then itching to opt out of the CBA at the next opt out date and start this painful process all over again.

ink
11-09-2011, 02:29 AM
Agreed.

Both sides need eachother, but NBA players are the product.

At least they claim to be. Actually the LAKERS are the product, as are the SPURS, the SUNS, the MAGIC, etc. Name on the front of the jersey is the product.

ink
11-09-2011, 02:33 AM
I think the majority of people have never been in a union, and are used to their boss telling them 'you are going to be paid $__ if you don't like it there's the door' and they are also looking at it from a standpoint of 'I wish I was making what those players are making... they are greedy'. But I'm sure people in developing countries are also reading about us 'greedy ungrateful Americans' in their news thinking the same thing and laughing about our supposed 'economic struggles'.

I belong to a union and I have been locked out. If it comes to real issues with real people whose lives are seriously being damaged I have a TON of sympathy for unions. These players have multi-millions and do not suffer any hardship whatsoever. That's why over 75% of North Americans polled don't care if the NBA comes back. The players are living in a wealth bubble that no one else lives in. It's actually kind of infuriating to hear them whining self-righteously about their rights and their salaries when they are so incredibly overpaid. No athlete is worth anywhere close to $10M regardless. It's obscene. And that's why there is so little sympathy for their complaints.

beasted86
11-09-2011, 02:38 AM
I belong to a union and I have been locked out. If it comes to real issues with real people whose lives are seriously being damaged I have a TON of sympathy for unions. These players have multi-millions and do not suffer any hardship whatsoever. That's why over 75% of North Americans polled don't care if the NBA comes back. The players are living in a wealth bubble that no one else lives in. It's actually kind of infuriating to hear them whining self-righteously about their rights and their salaries when they are so incredibly overpaid. No athlete is worth anywhere close to $10M regardless. It's obscene. And that's why there is so little sympathy for their complaints.

So basically all this time you just think all sport players are overpaid.

You could have just said that from the start, and I would have stopped responding to your lockout posts a long time ago.

SwatTeam
11-09-2011, 03:07 AM
I belong to a union and I have been locked out. If it comes to real issues with real people whose lives are seriously being damaged I have a TON of sympathy for unions. These players have multi-millions and do not suffer any hardship whatsoever. That's why over 75% of North Americans polled don't care if the NBA comes back. The players are living in a wealth bubble that no one else lives in. It's actually kind of infuriating to hear them whining self-righteously about their rights and their salaries when they are so incredibly overpaid. No athlete is worth anywhere close to $10M regardless. It's obscene. And that's why there is so little sympathy for their complaints.

yes and hypothetically, as a citizen of a third world country reading your complaints about a sport you watch for entertainment while people are dying in other countries from a lack of clean water and basic medicinal care makes you a spoiled whining self-righteous douche. Everything is relative man, you can't b***h about millionaires vs billionaires and complain about how the players should be grateful because everyone making less is suffering. If you have electricity and clean water you're not suffering compared to that kid in africa who doesn't know what a TV is. It makes you a hypocrite.

gotoHcarolina52
11-09-2011, 03:27 AM
At least they claim to be. Actually the LAKERS are the product, as are the SPURS, the SUNS, the MAGIC, etc. Name on the front of the jersey is the product.

Yeah, put you, me and three random scrubs in Lakers jerseys and see how many fans fill the Staples Center to watch us stink up the court.

blahblahyoutoo
11-09-2011, 09:32 AM
very rarely i agree with a Heat fan but this post my friend is one of the best when its comes to this whole mess because its real life and everyone is forgetting how many people are hurting financially over this lockout, forget about the player and owners their just fine and if they aint its their own damn fault, worry about the the mom or dad who is not working or is making less due to this lockout

hey, we're not all bad.
;)

blahblahyoutoo
11-09-2011, 09:34 AM
but the players bake the cookie

then they should find another bakery that will pay them as much as the NBA does.

daleja424
11-09-2011, 09:36 AM
yes and hypothetically, as a citizen of a third world country reading your complaints about a sport you watch for entertainment while people are dying in other countries from a lack of clean water and basic medicinal care makes you a spoiled whining self-righteous douche. Everything is relative man, you can't b***h about millionaires vs billionaires and complain about how the players should be grateful because everyone making less is suffering. If you have electricity and clean water you're not suffering compared to that kid in africa who doesn't know what a TV is. It makes you a hypocrite.

This is a fantastic point. Our lives are very situational. I spent some time in rural Equador recently doing so some volunteer work... and man...it can be really sad down there. We all have it good compared to them, but it doesn't stop us from trying to get what we have earned.

If we are worth 100k and being paid 50k... do any of us stop and say, "Hey I am better off with 50k than being an Ecuadorian farmer?" NO. We fight for what we believe is right.

daleja424
11-09-2011, 09:40 AM
anyways... at this point... all of this talk about money is moot. The players have accepted defeat from a money standpoint and are poised to "give back" over 3 billion dollars on a 10 year deal.

The owners got what they wanted from the players in that arena.

The question now is this: Will the 17 reasonable votes that are in favor of the 50-50 ultimatum deal give stern the power to throw the players a few crumbs to close this deal... or will they blow it all up b/c they want to crush the players at all costs.

ink
11-09-2011, 12:22 PM
So basically all this time you just think all sport players are overpaid.

You could have just said that from the start, and I would have stopped responding to your lockout posts a long time ago.

You've said a variation on that about 20 times and yet you keep responding. Mainly because you know that there is more than the players side; in fact, their position is weak and very hard to defend. They may throw their toys down on the ground and refuse to play this year, but that's about the only option they have left.

And regarding your point about overpayment, sure, most athletes are seriously overpaid, but in leagues where there is a hard cap system the problem is reduced. The distance between the salaries of the middle level player and the elite is not as great and it brings the team together. Which is another very positive and much needed by-product of this kind of system.

beasted86
11-09-2011, 12:23 PM
You've said a variation on that about 20 times and yet you keep responding. Mainly because you know that there is more than the players side; in fact, their position is weak and very hard to defend.

Actually I've said it once, and including this very post right here... this is the 2nd time I've responded to any of your posts since I said I would stop 3-4 days ago. But anyway, back to business as usual.

ink
11-09-2011, 12:29 PM
anyways... at this point... all of this talk about money is moot. The players have accepted defeat from a money standpoint and are poised to "give back" over 3 billion dollars on a 10 year deal.

The owners got what they wanted from the players in that arena.

The question now is this: Will the 17 reasonable votes that are in favor of the 50-50 ultimatum deal give stern the power to throw the players a few crumbs to close this deal... or will they blow it all up b/c they want to crush the players at all costs.

I doubt anyone is satisfied with this deal. The owners and the league need this to be about the system, something the players now want to make less manageable, since they realize they have gotten all the money they possibly could. Remember, they've made it about BRI all along, not the owners. The owners wanted system change and conceded on that point early. That is why there is a strong faction of owners pushing back against this bad deal.

ink
11-09-2011, 12:31 PM
Actually I've said it once, and including this very post right here... this is the 2nd time I've responded to any of your posts since I said I would stop 3-4 days ago. But anyway, back to business as usual.

In a reasonable manner I will continue to point out the errors in statements made by anyone simply repeating union talking points. You don't agree but then again you also don't defend your points well, except to repeat what the union says as if they're telling the gospel truth. They're just one party in the negotiation and they have been in a weak position all along. So it is bound to be difficult to defend their talking points.

ink
11-09-2011, 12:58 PM
yes and hypothetically, as a citizen of a third world country reading your complaints about a sport you watch for entertainment while people are dying in other countries from a lack of clean water and basic medicinal care makes you a spoiled whining self-righteous douche. Everything is relative man, you can't b***h about millionaires vs billionaires and complain about how the players should be grateful because everyone making less is suffering. If you have electricity and clean water you're not suffering compared to that kid in africa who doesn't know what a TV is. It makes you a hypocrite.

If you want to take it to an extreme, sure, I'd even agree with that. But we are within the same society as these guys, we pay for the tickets and merchandise, we are directly connected with them on a financial level. We are not a third world country so the relativist argument doesn't wash. I've posted several times before that this is where both the owners and players are actually the problem. But it is the players' salary demands which keep inflating the price of the entertainment people are foolish enough to overpay for. As others have pointed out, the best paid players of the 90s were making a small fraction of what mediocre players in today's NBA are making, and on top of that, they understood that it wasn't all about them (obvious exceptions like MJ notwithstanding). The system and the salaries have spun wildly out of control over the last decade and the fault lies mutually with the union and the league. The last two CBAs caused a HUGE amount of damage to the economy of the league and to the game itself. This silly "I'm on the good guy's side, and you are a sellout if you're on the bad guy's side" stuff is so juvenile. Not saying you are at all, I'm making the point about the level of discussion in general in here where we see people taking "a side". It's business. The league is not in good shape and it needs some solutions, it needs some change. People need to look at ways to innovate, not blame.

Sly Guy
11-09-2011, 02:23 PM
I'd have rejected the offer as well. The players are giving up too many freedoms and dollars in these proposed deals. Giving up one within reason is ok, but asking them to give up both on historic levels is asking for too much IMO. I still think the owners are right on a number of issues, but asking for a 20% paycut from the players off the top before even starting into those issues is over-doing it.

ink
11-09-2011, 02:46 PM
I'd have rejected the offer as well. The players are giving up too many freedoms and dollars in these proposed deals. Giving up one within reason is ok, but asking them to give up both on historic levels is asking for too much IMO. I still think the owners are right on a number of issues, but asking for a 20% paycut from the players off the top before even starting into those issues is over-doing it.

It's a terrible consolation prize for the owners to fall into the trap of haggling over money when system is what needed changing.

The thing with system change is that it can't be half-assed or it's not going to be much of an improvement. The deal they've come to now is half-assed. Does anyone really think the new luxury tax will prevent the historic overspenders from overspending? Nope. They'd be happy to pay double and triple what the others can afford. That's why this deal is just another bad CBA for the league. They need a complete culture change in the league and right now it is a complete battle of wills where the players who grew up with the ridiculous entitlement of this CBA are not going to willingly give it up.

That's the point of entitlement. You feel entitled to it, no matter who or what it hurts.