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JordansBulls
11-08-2011, 11:50 AM
Do the 2007 Rockets win the title with 2007 Kobe that year in place of 2007 Mcgrady?

This was the season where the Rockets lost game 7 at home vs the Jazz in round 1.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2007&p2=mcgratr01&y2=2007

When you compare the two that year Kobe had Mcgrady beat in nearly every stat.


How far do you think the Rockets go that year with 2007 Kobe in place of 2007 Mcgrady?

JDMVP
11-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Assuming they faced the cavs in the finals then YES nba champion. Understand the situation that year KOBE had Kwame Brown and Smush Parker as his C and PG respectively. To make matters worst hes backcourt partner in the playoff was Shammond Williams WTF!, enough said Kobe never had a real team. Kobe with a productive center in YAO and with a real team they could have won a nba championship.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2011, 05:19 PM
Spurs would have knocked them out in the WCF's. The Rockets were getting killed on the glass by freakin' Boozer. Imagine what Duncan and co. would have done to them. The Spurs also had the ability to slow Ming on the offensive end.

Bruno
11-08-2011, 06:07 PM
Alston/Head
Bryant/Wells
Battier/Wells
Hayes/Howard
Yao/Mutombo

Without Bryant the 2007 Rockets were the 3rd ranked defensive team, 15th ranked offensive team for the season. They were 4th in SRS. Substitute a prime, uninjured Bryant for a slightly hobbled and extremely inefficient McGrady and the difference would have been huge.

In 2007 McGrady lead the league in usage %, on a TS% clip of .515. He had a PER of 23.2, a WS of 8.6 on a WS/48 of 0.163.

In 2007 Bryant had a TS% of .58, a PER of 26.1, a WS of 13.0 and a WS/48 of 0.199. Miles ahead of Mcgrady in efficiency, and significantly better in overall production. Had Bryant been on the 2007 Rockets, he most likely would have won MVP. He would have transformed the Rockets from the 15th ranked offense, possibly to the top five. I think his impact on their offense would have been that big. Look at the 2007 Lakers for example; only two games over .500, but they were the 7th ranked offensive team for the season (with a team of scrubs, along with Odom and a 19 year old Bynum). Their SRS would have been even more dominant.

With Battier and Bryant both available to hound Ginobli, and the speed at PG to hound Parker it would have been a matter of stopping Duncan. I like Yaos/Mutombos/Hayes combined chances of slowing him down. I also like 28 year old Bryants chances against a 35 year old Bowen.

I think they could have had the personnel to get past past the 2007 Spurs; would have been a hell of a series, very close- could go either way. They would have dominated the Cavs in the finals.

Cool hypothetical JB. With the SRS they posted, that team had no business getting knocked out of the first round.

Matter.
11-08-2011, 06:28 PM
Kobe.... Anyday..... His stats alone were too good,even with that line up.

truther
11-08-2011, 06:33 PM
chances yao would be healthy for the whole playoffs,i would say slim.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2011, 06:47 PM
Alston/Head
Bryant/Wells
Battier/Wells
Hayes/Howard
Yao/Mutombo

Without Bryant the 2007 Rockets were the 3rd ranked defensive team, 15th ranked offensive team for the season. They were 4th in SRS. Substitute a prime, uninjured Bryant for a slightly hobbled and extremely inefficient McGrady and the difference would have been huge.

In 2007 McGrady lead the league in usage %, on a TS% clip of .515. He had a PER of 23.2, a WS of 8.6 on a WS/48 of 0.163.

In 2007 Bryant had a TS% of .58, a PER of 26.1, a WS of 13.0 and a WS/48 of 0.199. Miles ahead of Mcgrady in efficiency, and significantly better in overall production. Had Bryant been on the 2007 Rockets, he most likely would have won MVP. He would have transformed the Rockets from the 15th ranked offense, possibly to the top five. I think his impact on their offense would have been that big. Look at the 2007 Lakers for example; only two games over .500, but they were the 7th ranked offensive team for the season (with a team of scrubs, along with Odom and a 19 year old Bynum). Their SRS would have been even more dominant.

With Battier and Bryant both available to hound Ginobli, and the speed at PG to hound Parker it would have been a matter of stopping Duncan. I like Yaos/Mutombos/Hayes combined chances of slowing him down. I also like 28 year old Bryants chances against a 35 year old Bowen.

I think they could have had the personnel to get past past the 2007 Spurs; would have been a hell of a series, very close- could go either way. They would have dominated the Cavs in the finals.

Cool hypothetical JB. With the SRS they posted, that team had no business getting knocked out of the first round.

what was Dallas' SRS when GS knocked them off?

I am sure Chronz would be more than happy to break down the Houston-Jazz series for us, but looking at the numbers, and from what I remember, Ming couldn't even keep Carlos Boozer from dominating the boards late in that series, and it doomed the Rox. They would have run into far greater problems in the WCF, when they met a team that was stronger up and down, even when we replace McGrady with Kobe, in the Spurs.

WCF knockout with Kobe instead of McGrady. Alston and the Rox frontcourt would have been shredded. Kobe isn't a monster upgrade over playoff Manu/Finley combo (that year), and Duncan and Parker would be too much.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2011, 06:48 PM
wish the voting was public. Would love to see how many Laker fans will come in here and automatically punch "Championship" without even thinking of all the series/matchups/rosters

Chronz
11-08-2011, 07:46 PM
Spurs would have knocked them out in the WCF's. The Rockets were getting killed on the glass by freakin' Boozer. Imagine what Duncan and co. would have done to them. The Spurs also had the ability to slow Ming on the offensive end.
Nah, Spurs were a better matchup for the Rockets. Utah was Yao's worst nightmare, it left him with no one to guard and no way to anchor the D. Against the Spurs he would have been able to play his game and he wouldnt have to worry about his man torching him.

iggypop123
11-08-2011, 07:56 PM
prime kobe without the finger issues and a good big. i think its easy to see what the result would have been. especially since the east was remarkably weak that year.

Chronz
11-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Cool hypothetical JB. With the SRS they posted, that team had no business getting knocked out of the first round.
You have to think about the matchups, the strength of the Rockets SRS was built on its defensive foundation. Alston, Hayes, Yao, Battier were the key contributors here. The matchups Utah was able to throw at the Rox rendered many of those strengths a liability.
JVG had to make the choice of sticking Yao on Okur and lose the only rim anchor he had or put him on Boozer and hope he doesnt get abused individually. We both know what choice he made and what Boozer produced as a result. Hayes did as good as can be expected for someone who was rotating everywhere and having to contest the shot of a 7ft 3pt shooter on his close outs. The following year Adelman choose to stick his stopper on Boozer and left Deke/Scola to guard Okur, Boozer struggled as a result but Deron found it easier to score in the paint against a smaller frontline, the Rockets were outclassed talent wise anyways but the fact that they stretched it to 6 does make you wonder if JVG made a mistake.


Thats not where it ended, Battier had really blossomed as a stopper that year, he was a better overall defender in Memphis but he was more of an anchor there, with Houston already bursting with smart help defenders he gambled less. Problem being, who on Utah fits the description as a perimeter scorer? So basically Battiers strength of zoning in on star scorers was irrelevant this series. In fact he was often outplayed by Harpring/AK47, he was suppose to be Houstons 3rd most impactful player.

So Houstons frontcourt was in a mismatch all over the floor, this is why the Spurs were a better matchup. In a series vs the Spurs they can put their stoppers on players management had hoped they would be useful against. In fact whenever the Spurs played the Rockets, Battier would tell JVG to match his minutes with Manu, bring him off the bench the same way he did. He made it a point to want to spend his energy limiting Manu.

Rafer did an excellent job as usual, his on ball defense and underrated strength (dude had guns) often got overlooked in the sea of Rafer hate back in those days.

Also Tmac wasnt the same by the end of the year, by the playoffs he was delaying shoulder/knee surgery after carrying a load far too great for his Talent at the time. He had a brilliant passing year and it really helped Yao's game, Id argue Yao becomes less efficient under Kobe but your right in thinking the overall offensive efficiency is greatly enhanced.

Yao had his inconsistencies with injuries.

Basically this is the team the 2 players should have had just 1-2 years sooner.




Still those JVG Rocket squads are underrated, lots of 2nd round teams were less worthy of advancing than the Rockets were.

amos1er
11-08-2011, 08:20 PM
Spurs would have knocked them out in the WCF's. The Rockets were getting killed on the glass by freakin' Boozer. Imagine what Duncan and co. would have done to them. The Spurs also had the ability to slow Ming on the offensive end.

No way....They destroyed the Spurs the next year when Kobe had Pau Gasol. Give Kobe Yao in his prime and they are going all the way for sure.

cbs134679
11-08-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't see them going any further even with kobe, having another sg is not going to stop boozer and okur from torching yao on offense and getting all the rebounds not to mention alston couldn't contain d.will at all, battier was useless he didn't have wing scorers to guard..jazz were just a all around bad match-up for the rockets.

truther
11-08-2011, 08:39 PM
they would have made the finals, than yao would have been injured in game 2 of the finals, than lebron would have proceeded to rape whats left of the interior defense.

Chronz
11-08-2011, 09:18 PM
No way....They destroyed the Spurs the next year when Kobe had Pau Gasol. Give Kobe Yao in his prime and they are going all the way for sure.

I do think Kobe could have won a title but just remember those Spurs had an injured Manu and that was Duncans first decline year. In other words, those werent the same Spurs.

smith&wesson
11-08-2011, 09:52 PM
i think they would have gone to the finals. kobe >>tmac.

basketfan4life
11-08-2011, 09:54 PM
seeing Kobe torching thee jazz and the spurs whenever they meet in the playoffs, i think rockets would made the finals and cavs were no biggy.

Avenged
11-08-2011, 11:34 PM
Tough to say.. If they could get past the WC teams then they most likely would have won it all against the Cavs.

Rockets w/ Kobe vs. Spurs would have been a good series though.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2011, 11:59 PM
Nah, Spurs were a better matchup for the Rockets. Utah was Yao's worst nightmare, it left him with no one to guard and no way to anchor the D. Against the Spurs he would have been able to play his game and he wouldnt have to worry about his man torching him.

for sure man. The Jazz were indeed a bad matchup, but the fact is, replacing McGrady with Kobe didn't take away their weakness.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 12:03 AM
No way....They destroyed the Spurs the next year when Kobe had Pau Gasol. Give Kobe Yao in his prime and they are going all the way for sure.

and now you are factoring in one roster player swap. Look at the whole roster please.

IBleedPurple
11-09-2011, 12:51 AM
chances yao would be healthy for the whole playoffs,i would say slim.

This

Chronz
11-09-2011, 04:21 AM
for sure man. The Jazz were indeed a bad matchup, but the fact is, replacing McGrady with Kobe didn't take away their weakness.
So? They went 7 despite those weaknesses, adding Kobe improves their chances, not by shoring up their rebounding but enhancing their offense.
Then when they get to San Antonio they actually match up well with them. Kobe could have won a title with this cast, hell Tmac could have come alot closer had he not let the injuries (And possibly nerves) effect him so much. That was the worst Ive ever seen Tmac play in a playoff series (Toronto included)

todu82
11-09-2011, 11:19 AM
I think they would have lost the West finals in 7 to San Antonio.

JordansBulls
11-09-2011, 11:42 AM
Kobe.... Anyday..... His stats alone were too good,even with that line up.

What the hell does this mean? We know Kobe was better than Tmac we are saying how far do the Rockets go with him over Tmac?

JordansBulls
11-09-2011, 11:44 AM
seeing Kobe torching thee jazz and the spurs whenever they meet in the playoffs, i think rockets would made the finals and cavs were no biggy.

Well remember Kobe is used to one particular offense, does he play differently in a JVG offense as the Rockets was a walk it up and down team.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 11:45 AM
So? They went 7 despite those weaknesses, adding Kobe improves their chances, not by shoring up their rebounding but enhancing their offense.
Then when they get to San Antonio they actually match up well with them. Kobe could have won a title with this cast, hell Tmac could have come alot closer had he not let the injuries (And possibly nerves) effect him so much. That was the worst Ive ever seen Tmac play in a playoff series (Toronto included)

Which is why I voted WCF's. I think they would have beat the Jazz, then GS, and been beaten by the Spurs. I agree Kobe COULD have won a title with that cast, but I don't see them getting by the Spurs. Obviously Okur was a terrible matchup for the Rox, but Parker and Duncan would have been a terrible matchup as well.

nickdymez
11-09-2011, 12:17 PM
This could have been a cool topic

Ebbs
11-09-2011, 01:07 PM
Honestly I still think they lose in the first.

jimbobjarree
11-09-2011, 02:13 PM
still wouldn't have got past the mighty Gordon Giricek and the Jazz

Chronz
11-09-2011, 04:43 PM
Which is why I voted WCF's. I think they would have beat the Jazz, then GS, and been beaten by the Spurs. I agree Kobe COULD have won a title with that cast, but I don't see them getting by the Spurs. Obviously Okur was a terrible matchup for the Rox, but Parker and Duncan would have been a terrible matchup as well.

Im comfortable with Rafer on Parker and Hayes on Duncan. Those guys are matchup problems for every team but on a team with designated post and perimeter stoppers, they are less of a problem. Dont blame you for favoring the guys who actually won the title tho.

kblo247
11-09-2011, 04:56 PM
Spurs would have knocked them out in the WCF's. The Rockets were getting killed on the glass by freakin' Boozer. Imagine what Duncan and co. would have done to them. The Spurs also had the ability to slow Ming on the offensive end.

Too bad the only time the Sours have slowed Kobe since 2000 was on a knee and shooting shoulder that he needed surgery for. He kills them and owns Duncan far more often than not. They beat the Spurs and Cavs assuming they make it.

Lakers don't make the playoffs relying on McGrady though to defend the best player, facilitate, and carry the offensive load.

Like Horry would say, y'all better go pick up a paper or something and read the stats he put on the Spurs head in 01, 02, 04, 08, and even hurt in 03. He was the best player on both sides by even Shaqs own admission in every year but 03.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Im comfortable with Rafer on Parker and Hayes on Duncan. Those guys are matchup problems for every team but on a team with designated post and perimeter stoppers, they are less of a problem. Dont blame you for favoring the guys who actually won the title tho.

The only problem with the Duncan-Hayes matchup is Hayes derives his great defensive play with lower body strength, getting guys out of their areas, etc. Duncan is so patient, and can just turn and shoot over him. At least that is my theory. Alston on Parker si what it is. Alston was a pretty good defender, but Parker was just so good at finding ways into the lane, or selling contact, Alston loses that matchup.

I think its entirely possible that a Kobe led Rox win it all. That Spurs team wasn't the same team from 99'-05'. But it was good enough I thought.

I guess its a matter of opinions on matchups. I also factor in Bowen holding Kobe to slightly under his playoff levels from that season in a series. Even though there were times Kobe absolutely lit Bowen up lol

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 05:02 PM
Too bad the only time the Sours have slowed Kobe since 2000 was on a knee and shooting shoulder that he needed surgery for. He kills them and owns Duncan far more often than not. They beat the Spurs and Cavs assuming they make it.

Lakers don't make the playoffs relying on McGrady though to defend the best player, facilitate, and carry the offensive load.

Like Horry would say, y'all better go pick up a paper or something and read the stats he put on the Spurs head in 01, 02, 04, 08, and even hurt in 03. He was the best player on both sides by even Shaqs own admission in every year but 03.

oh I am aware of the numbers Kobe has put up on the Spurs man. I just don't think the Rox with that makeup are favorable matchups to stop the Spurs on the other end from executing.

beliges
11-09-2011, 05:05 PM
With that roster Rockets would have made it to the Finals. Kobe has always owned the Spurs in the playoffs and against the Cavs, Rockets would most likely win the title that year.

kblo247
11-09-2011, 05:07 PM
oh I am aware of the numbers Kobe has put up on the Spurs man. I just don't think the Rox with that makeup are favorable matchups to stop the Spurs on the other end from executing.

I do think they could pull it off. Manu wasn't fully there that year. To me it comes down to Parker much like the Spurs 04 chances came down to him when Malone was on Duncan pushing him out is comfort zone. Duncan on the glass doesn't scare me. The fact is Kobe was the number 2 rebounder beside Shaq for those past series so it isn't like he wouldn't pick up the slack with Yao, and Duncan would simply pull down 10-15 or so every night.

I'd consider the Spurs having a much better chance if Manu was right that year, like when they beat the Pistons, but he wasn't and Horry wasnt the same Horry

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 05:22 PM
I do think they could pull it off. Manu wasn't fully there that year. To me it comes down to Parker much like the Spurs 04 chances came down to him when Malone was on Duncan pushing him out is comfort zone. Duncan on the glass doesn't scare me. The fact is Kobe was the number 2 rebounder beside Shaq for those past series so it isn't like he wouldn't pick up the slack with Yao, and Duncan would simply pull down 10-15 or so every night.

I'd consider the Spurs having a much better chance if Manu was right that year, like when they beat the Pistons, but he wasn't and Horry wasnt the same Horry

of course they COULD pull it off. I am with you on that.

You have to consider the makeup of the Rox for Kobe, the difference in offense, etc. You can't just put Kobe from the Lakers on that team and expect the exact same thing. I think the Rox would have issues keeping penetration under control, and would be beat up depth wise by that Spurs team.

But we are in speculation world in this thread. A case, or many cases that is, can be made for both ways.

RaiderLakersA's
11-09-2011, 05:40 PM
How many more points does "the will of the man" equate to? Can we quantify that? And how many less points do the Rockets' opponents score, being that Kobe was, is and always will be a better defender than TMac (which also plays a factor into "help" defense)? And lastly, how do we factor the impact of a player who clearly makes others around him better, again, something that Kobe did, but we're not so certain that TMac could do to the same extent?

kblo247
11-09-2011, 05:55 PM
of course they COULD pull it off. I am with you on that.

You have to consider the makeup of the Rox for Kobe, the difference in offense, etc. You can't just put Kobe from the Lakers on that team and expect the exact same thing. I think the Rox would have issues keeping penetration under control, and would be beat up depth wise by that Spurs team.

But we are in speculation world in this thread. A case, or many cases that is, can be made for both ways.

You forget that LA has had Fisher as their PG, lol? And that he has been the best PG defender we had to stop penetration because we had Smush, Atkins, Farmar, and Payton with a hole in his glove? Rafter has a hard time struggling worse imo

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 06:07 PM
You forget that LA has had Fisher as their PG, lol? And that he has been the best PG defender we had to stop penetration because we had Smush, Atkins, Farmar, and Payton with a hole in his glove? Rafter has a hard time struggling worse imo

Rox ran a much different offense where their PG had to do more than simply dribble the ball up the floor then get the hell out of the way and hit open jumpers if needed. The PG is not as necessary in the triangle.

Chronz
11-09-2011, 06:24 PM
The only problem with the Duncan-Hayes matchup is Hayes derives his great defensive play with lower body strength, getting guys out of their areas, etc. Duncan is so patient, and can just turn and shoot over him. At least that is my theory.
Everyone could shoot over Hayes back in the day, and those guys that had great or streaky midrange/longrange games could get the best of him, but that happened so infrequently that his ability to completely take away your deep post game made him an effective defender. Morey used to allude to a number of key stats his team tracked and individual stops in the post was among the many Hayes excelled at.

What your relegating Duncan to is basically a poor mans Okur. Duncan still needed and got plenty of low post touches back in those days, it is in those possessions that Hayes will be able to maximize his worth. I have no doubt Duncan would dominate, but just like the effect Bruce Bowen had on Kobe, the extent of his domination isnt as devastating. Him being short didnt stop him from abusing taller post players, I remember him really shutting down KG both in Minny and Boston IIRC.


Alston on Parker si what it is. Alston was a pretty good defender, but Parker was just so good at finding ways into the lane, or selling contact, Alston loses that matchup.

Im biased so Alston was a great on-ball defender who could still rack up steals but Ill admit I dont remember how TP performed against him. Its obvious he loses the matchup individually, I dont see anything in my post that would make you think otherwise. TP had a great Finals but his entire playoff history is riddled with inconsistent play, the Spurs need to win off the brilliance of Manu/Duncan in this one. Believe me when I say the Rockets were built with the intention of defeating a team like the Spurs. They emulated them as best they could, Tmac just couldnt lead them beyond year 1. Kobe was the superstar capable of leading that championship support home.


I think its entirely possible that a Kobe led Rox win it all. That Spurs team wasn't the same team from 99'-05'. But it was good enough I thought.

I guess its a matter of opinions on matchups. I also factor in Bowen holding Kobe to slightly under his playoff levels from that season in a series. Even though there were times Kobe absolutely lit Bowen up lol

I take it I dont have to tell you Kobe wins that matchup as you did earlier, this is the same effect Hayes would have on Duncan and Battier on Manu. Both Kobe and Yao would get to rest on D with only Kobe really having to work against an elite defender on the other end. It just sounds so favorable. TP is a wild card tho

Hawkeye15
11-09-2011, 06:29 PM
Everyone could shoot over Hayes back in the day, and those guys that had great or streaky midrange/longrange games could get the best of him, but that happened so infrequently that his ability to completely take away your deep post game made him an effective defender. Morey used to allude to a number of key stats his team tracked and individual stops in the post was among the many Hayes excelled at.

What your relegating Duncan to is basically a poor mans Okur. Duncan still needed and got plenty of low post touches back in those days, it is in those possessions that Hayes will be able to maximize his worth. I have no doubt Duncan would dominate, but just like the effect Bruce Bowen had on Kobe, the extent of his domination isnt as devastating. Him being short didnt stop him from abusing taller post players, I remember him really shutting down KG both in Minny and Boston IIRC.


Im biased so Alston was a great on-ball defender who could still rack up steals but Ill admit I dont remember how TP performed against him. Its obvious he loses the matchup individually, I dont see anything in my post that would make you think otherwise. TP had a great Finals but his entire playoff history is riddled with inconsistent play, the Spurs need to win off the brilliance of Manu/Duncan in this one. Believe me when I say the Rockets were built with the intention of defeating a team like the Spurs. They emulated them as best they could, Tmac just couldnt lead them beyond year 1. Kobe was the superstar capable of leading that championship support home.


I take it I dont have to tell you Kobe wins that matchup as you did earlier, this is the same effect Hayes would have on Duncan and Battier on Manu. Both Kobe and Yao would get to rest on D with only Kobe really having to work against an elite defender on the other end. It just sounds so favorable. TP is a wild card tho

I agree with every single point you make here man. I do. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Rox were able to win a championship with Kobe instead of TMac that year. I simply think the Spurs would have outlasted them in a series that postseason. Kobe would have got his, but I never had the faith in Ming to string together a great postseason performance when it mattered most, and the Rox didn't have the ability to get scoring from others.

I simply think the Spurs would have been too much for them. The Texans have been putting a team together for years to finally beat the Colts. They still couldn't beat them. I know basketball and football are different sports, but just because a team is building itself to model another team doesn't mean it will/has overtaken that team.

Spurs in 7 in the WCF's imo.

astrosmaniac
11-09-2011, 06:41 PM
what was Dallas' SRS when GS knocked them off?

I am sure Chronz would be more than happy to break down the Houston-Jazz series for us, but looking at the numbers, and from what I remember, Ming couldn't even keep Carlos Boozer from dominating the boards late in that series, and it doomed the Rox. They would have run into far greater problems in the WCF, when they met a team that was stronger up and down, even when we replace McGrady with Kobe, in the Spurs.

WCF knockout with Kobe instead of McGrady. Alston and the Rox frontcourt would have been shredded. Kobe isn't a monster upgrade over playoff Manu/Finley combo (that year), and Duncan and Parker would be too much.

the jazz dominated the boards because their C and PF both played 15 feet away from the basket on offense. it pulled yao out and then they beat him laterally to the ball he'd have been fine anchoring down on duncan. plus the rockets were a dominate defense with mcgrady. think of how much better they would have been with kobe defensively. and the offense obviously would be better with kobe

Chronz
11-09-2011, 06:53 PM
Too bad the only time the Sours have slowed Kobe since 2000 was on a knee and shooting shoulder that he needed surgery for. He kills them and owns Duncan far more often than not. They beat the Spurs and Cavs assuming they make it.
Your underestimating the effect Bowen had on Kobe.

Consider that Kobe TORCHED the Spurs in their 2001 encounter, he dropped 45 in the opener, 28, 36, 24 on 51% shooting (36.1 GameScore).

The very next year the Lakers stilled destroyed the Spurs, and Kobe was still brilliant but Bowen clearly gave the Spurs reason to keep him despite his offensive limitations as Kobes #'s dropped significantly that year.

In 2003 Kobe had by far his greatest regular season but fizzled out against the Spurs. The toll of carrying that added beef and Im sure various other injuries played a role but there is no denying Kobe was mortal this year.

I remember the 2004 Series being more about the Lakers finally deciding to swarm Duncan or was it TP? I remember GP griping about needing help defending TP but I dont know if they were sending that help towards Duncan or not. I do remember Malone doing a commendable job 1 on 1 but I think they really tilted the floor on Duncan, I recall the Spurs going after Brent Barry that off-season because of how the Lakers defended them.

By 2005, Bowen had begun to slow down but he was still worth mentioning as a stopper.



Lakers don't make the playoffs relying on McGrady though to defend the best player, facilitate, and carry the offensive load.

I dont value the defense Kobe played during that time period as highly as you do, and Tmac was arguably carrying a greater offensive load because of his playmaking responsibilities, in fact he would have handled that role better than Kobe (he wouldnt have been so turnover prone thats for sure) but he wouldnt be as efficient and that team sucked *** with Kobe but I dont think it makes much of a difference on this level as it would on the Rockets during that time period.


Like Horry would say, y'all better go pick up a paper or something and read the stats he put on the Spurs head in 01, 02, 04, 08, and even hurt in 03. He was the best player on both sides by even Shaqs own admission in every year but 03.

What stats?

Chronz
11-09-2011, 07:01 PM
I do think they could pull it off. Manu wasn't fully there that year. To me it comes down to Parker much like the Spurs 04 chances came down to him when Malone was on Duncan pushing him out is comfort zone. Duncan on the glass doesn't scare me. The fact is was the number 2 rebounder beside Shaq for those past series so it isn't like he wouldn't pick up the slack with Yao, and Duncan would simply pull down 10-15 or so every night.

I'd consider the Spurs having a much better chance if Manu was right that year, like when they beat the Pistons, but he wasn't and Horry wasnt the same Horry
Manu was still there, TP had blown up is what clouds that memory. But I agree it would probably come down to TP

kblo247
11-09-2011, 07:11 PM
Your underestimating the effect Bowen had on Kobe.

Consider that Kobe TORCHED the Spurs in their 2001 encounter, he dropped 45 in the opener, 28, 36, 24 on 51% shooting (36.1 GameScore).

The very next year the Lakers stilled destroyed the Spurs, and Kobe was still brilliant but Bowen clearly gave the Spurs reason to keep him despite his offensive limitations as Kobes #'s dropped significantly that year.

In 2003 Kobe had by far his greatest regular season but fizzled out against the Spurs. The toll of carrying that added beef and Im sure various other injuries played a role but there is no denying Kobe was mortal this year.

I remember the 2004 Series being more about the Lakers finally deciding to swarm Duncan or was it TP? I remember GP griping about needing help defending TP but I dont know if they were sending that help towards Duncan or not. I do remember Malone doing a commendable job 1 on 1 but I think they really tilted the floor on Duncan, I recall the Spurs going after Brent Barry that off-season because of how the Lakers defended them.

By 2005, Bowen had begun to slow down but he was still worth mentioning as a stopper.



Prolly not, they prolly hover above .500 because I dont value the defense Kobe played during that time period as highly as you do, and Tmac was arguably carrying a greater offensive load than Kobe, he just wasnt as efficient as him.


What stats?

Kobe's game numbers in the 02 series dropped when he smacked the hell out that backboard versus San Antonio in one of the games and had to have it taped up the rest of the way. He still closed them out very well and there was play in particular I remember from that series of hi, rebounding a Fisher late miss over Robinson and Duncan and putting it back to basically give LA momentum; that play pretty much summed up the series when they played, in the words of Tex Winters, Kobe kept coming at them because he still holds a grudge for the Spurs players bragging about shutting down the forum and questioning the legitimacy of is first title.

I'll give you 2003, but im not sure what you mean about added beef since he wasnt that big. Kobe had a load he was not used to. He broke down in trying to make that 4th run. Fisher, Fox, Horry, and George all did as well because of someone healing on company time.

As for 2004, it was Parker. Payton was livid, rightfully so, because the media kept asking about how Parker torched him, the same question over and over in different forms, after the first two games. Phil changed up the lineups a bit and put more Fisher, Payton, Kobe, Karl, and Shaq. Fisher shaded him better and Karl would step out and in his words "make Tony feel him and think about coming in the lane twice". Duncan was good, but Karl really held his own against every big that postseason whether it was Yao, KG, or Tim. Just thinking about it makes me sad about him going down in the finals and Grant not being able to play.

I was talking about the postseason series stats he had versus the Spurs over the years. He has perhaps had his best and most consistent numbers in those series, when you factor in a repeat playoff opponent.

I don't think Bowen in 2007, not 2005 would give Kobe as hard a time as he could years ago. Kobe was at I would call his peak in terms of his basketball skills meeting his athleticism (think his athletic peak was 03 personally). I also just don't think the Spurs could offset the damage he would do with that Ginobili and Horry, who were a step slower than their last title run. To me the Spurs chance to win would fall on if Parker could score between 20-30 every night

Chronz
11-09-2011, 07:30 PM
's game numbers in the 02 series dropped when he smacked the hell out that backboard versus San Antonio in one of the games and had to have it taped up the rest of the way. He still closed them out very well and there was play in particular I remember from that series of hi, rebounding a Fisher late miss over Robinson and Duncan and putting it back to basically give LA momentum; that play pretty much summed up the series when they played, in the words of Tex Winters, Kobe kept coming at them because he still holds a grudge for the Spurs players bragging about shutting down the forum and questioning the legitimacy of is first title.
Saying his #'s dropped would suggest that they approached those lofty highs to begin with, and compared to the year prior they had not. The point isnt that Kobe becomes irrelevant, hell even a really young Kobe did pretty good against the Spurs in those days. But Bowen definitely made his presence felt.



I'll give you 2003, but im not sure what you mean about added beef since he wasnt that big. Kobe had a load he was not used to. He broke down in trying to make that 4th run. Fisher, Fox, Horry, and George all did as well because of someone healing on company time.

Better they break down than the guy who took the most punishment of anyone. If anyone didnt do their job it was management who rested on its laurels and allowed the supporting cast around the duo to wither away to the point where Shaq being around for 67+ games + playoffs isnt enough then it shows how depleted the team is. I highly doubt all those players were injured because Shaq wasnt around.

And I recall the fanfare around me when the preseason games started and Kobe looked MUCH bigger than ever before.


As for 2004, it was Parker. Payton was livid, rightfully so, because the media kept asking about how Parker torched him, the same question over and over in different forms, after the first two games. Phil changed up the lineups a bit and put more Fisher, Payton, Kobe, Karl, and Shaq. Fisher shaded him better and Karl would step out and in his words "make Tony feel him and think about coming in the lane twice". Duncan was good, but Karl really held his own against every big that postseason whether it was Yao, KG, or Tim. Just thinking about it makes me sad about him going down in the finals and Grant not being able to play.

Yea I remember, everything did change after G2 and the gamelogs probably support the notion that it was TP who felt the effects. And yes, them losing Grant was a bad sign of things to come.


I was talking about the postseason series stats he had versus the Spurs over the years. He has perhaps had his best and most consistent numbers in those series, when you factor in a repeat playoff opponent.

I don't think Bowen in 2007, not 2005 would give Kobe as hard a time as he could years ago. Kobe was at I would call his peak in terms of his basketball skills meeting his athleticism (think his athletic peak was 03 personally). I also just don't think the Spurs could offset the damage he would do with that Ginobili and Horry, who were a step slower than their last title run. To me the Spurs chance to win would fall on if Parker could score between 20-30 every night

Not sure what you mean at top but yea the 2005 thing was a typo.

naps
11-09-2011, 07:44 PM
wish the voting was public. Would love to see how many Laker fans will come in here and automatically punch "Championship" without even thinking of all the series/matchups/rosters

LMFAO @ the poll. I am pretty sure 90% of those 18 votes are Kobe fanboys that voted for "NBA Champion."

HiphopRelated
11-09-2011, 07:46 PM
LOL @ anyone thing Yao's feet survive to the WCFs muchless Finals

kblo247
11-09-2011, 07:48 PM
Yeah, I would never say that Kobe didn't work for his versus Bowen. Bruce made him earn everything, but good offense always beat his good defense 9/10 times when they met, he just contained the bleeding.

I could be mistaken, but I don't remember 03 Kobe being big, just 04 Kobe being puny between Colorado and the surgeries and making him seem larger the year before. That is just my opinion though about is physical frame. I would never deny that I felt he could do things athletically that year that made me saw wow in comparison to the others.

And I agree that LA's management were terrible with the way the Kobe/Shaq 3 pest team deteriorated depth wise. They never really tired to reload. They basically had Madsen to backup Shaq and hoped that Slava would pan out enough to conserve Horry. Horry logged too many minutes early that year and his 3 ball just disappeared that postseason. Fox also put in some PF time that year and his feet gave out. George really was counted on that year for the first time to make that deal he got seem reasonable, and his ankle gave out. Kobe and Fisher basically wore down because they had no guards behind them who could be trusted aside from an aged Shaw who couldn't hide that the other two rotation guards sucked like he did for Hunter and Richmond the year before. They could have done so much more to boost that team, heck getting Grant to not retire would have been wonderful. Shaq being ready to play, in shape, and taking care of himself and the investment they made in him would have given them all a slightly better chance to stay healthy and make history IMO.

Raph12
11-09-2011, 09:13 PM
WCFs only to lose to the Spurs...

xxplayerxx23
11-09-2011, 09:54 PM
Lebron might of had his first ring if they went to the finals lol

ClippersE.G
11-09-2011, 10:52 PM
Spurs would have knocked them out in the WCF's. The Rockets were getting killed on the glass by freakin' Boozer. Imagine what Duncan and co. would have done to them. The Spurs also had the ability to slow Ming on the offensive end.

Will the Spurs hype ever end.