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View Full Version : Do we really want star player to stay?...



ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 07:15 PM
With a team he does not want to stay with so the city to be happy? Damn that players dreams or wants?...If he does not want to be there he will leave there is nothing that can change that ..the only way is to get rid of free agency all together and just make 15 year contracts..I just dont get what people want from these players.

Tony_Starks
11-07-2011, 07:25 PM
Man the notion that a player is somehow obligated to stay with the team that drafted him regardless of how they run it is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

But let these guys tell it superstars should pretty much just sign a lifetime contract and be done with it!

gwrighter
11-07-2011, 07:27 PM
It's bigger than that, not going to explain tho. there are a multitude of threads you can look over.

Sactown
11-07-2011, 07:28 PM
With a team he does not want to stay with so the city to be happy? Damn that players dreams or wants?...If he does not want to be there he will leave there is nothing that can change that ..the only way is to get rid of free agency all together and just make 15 year contracts..I just dont get what people want from these players.

We want the Star Players to think about the fans who spend thousands of dollars on them every season and cheer for them during every single game.. and think about how we feel before they say "see ya later I'm out!" Because without us they wouldn't be living the life style the want to live.. we make their dreams come true.. and they need to remember that

barreleffact
11-07-2011, 07:39 PM
^there will be fans in any city they choose to go. Honestly if I was in their position I would go whenever I chose to at the first chance I got. I would only sign the minimum contract even for restricted FA if I chose. The lost money would be made back in subsequent years. Fans want too much, and in all truth it is dumb. If a team were to eliminate FA and sign them to a guaranteed contract for an extended time, or even if they were just told they could not sign elsewhere ever, the player would likely begin to perform less efficiently.

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 07:46 PM
@SACTOWN when is enough is enough? because when that said player is old and knees going out you as a fan will be looking at the next stud player coming out and "love" him and want never ending "loyalty" but ask the aging player to move on...kind of brutal huh?

barreleffact
11-07-2011, 07:55 PM
@sactown when is enough is enough? Because when that said player is old and knees going out you as a fan will be looking at the next stud player coming out and "love" him and want never ending "loyalty" but ask the aging player to move on...kind of brutal huh?

+1

Sactown
11-07-2011, 07:57 PM
@SACTOWN when is enough is enough? because when that said player is old and knees going out you as a fan will be looking at the next stud player coming out and "love" him and want never ending "loyalty" but ask the aging player to move on...kind of brutal huh?

As a Kings fan I still cherish the time we had during the early 2000's and we still enjoying seeing Doug Christie and Bobby Jackson at Arco.. we still cheer when Chris Webber walks in.. even though he didn't win a ring and went out on one knee.. you will still see kings fans wearing his jersey.. and when it came a point where he wasn't a star anymore we tried to trade him to a championship caliber team. He will always be remember in this organization, and that's why we retired his jersey. That's what WE fans want to see

Tony_Starks
11-07-2011, 08:20 PM
As a Kings fan I still cherish the time we had during the early 2000's and we still enjoying seeing Doug Christie and Bobby Jackson at Arco.. we still cheer when Chris Webber walks in.. even though he didn't win a ring and went out on one knee.. you will still see kings fans wearing his jersey.. and when it came a point where he wasn't a star anymore we tried to trade him to a championship caliber team. He will always be remember in this organization, and that's why we retired his jersey. That's what WE fans want to see


What you're talking about is blind emotional allegiance to the fans no matter what. That sounds great in a perfect world but ask yourself a question: if that player has a career altering injury will management have that same allegiance to him? Or forget injury, if management just feels they can get a better younger player at a cheaper price and it means shipping him out across the country uprooting his family will they be loyal to the player then? Of course not, then its all business right? OR when they've given their best years to the organization and are now on the downside of their career? Where is the loyalty then?

You're asking a player to basically say "Im just going to basically stay loyal to these fans, put my career in the owners hands, and hope they do the right thing." Thats not reasonable, realistic, or smart.

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Bingo @ tony-starks!!!

Sactown
11-07-2011, 08:30 PM
What you're talking about is blind emotional allegiance to the fans no matter what. That sounds great in a perfect world but ask yourself a question: if that player has a career altering injury will management have that same allegiance to him? Or forget injury, if management just feels they can get a better younger player at a cheaper price and it means shipping him out across the country uprooting his family will they be loyal to the player then? Of course not, then its all business right? OR when they've given their best years to the organization and are now on the downside of their career? Where is the loyalty then?

You're asking a player to basically say "Im just going to basically stay loyal to these fans, put my career in the owners hands, and hope they do the right thing." Thats not reasonable, realistic, or smart.

I don't have a problem with a player like KG, who stays with the T-Wolves for most of his career until he realizes that he is incapable caring a team by himself.. so he asks for a trade to a competing team and doesn't leak the fact that he's only going to go to one location... and kill his trade value.. so he leaves and goes for a ring.. he has had a great career and I doubt he would say he hasn't he has been loyal to a team and has his ring.. he's going to be known as one of the greats and is going to be cherished by Celtics and T-wolves fan forever.. I have a problem with Chris Paul giving up on the Hornets at the age of 26... Or Dwight Howard who has been to the finals with Magic and is now saying "I don't know what else I could do"
And when Chris Webber got injured we weren't turning our back on him... we sent to a location that he was happy to go to.. we let him have what he wanted.
Give me 10 mil a year and I'll happily be willing to move every 3 years.. it comes with the job...

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 08:39 PM
Also at SACTOWN ...webber did not want to be there at first..but the team built around him in a hurry!!! these guys know that they have ten years tops...thats why they dont want to waste years being on a nowhere team..can you understand that?

Sactown
11-07-2011, 08:55 PM
Also at SACTOWN ...webber did not want to be there at first..but the team built around him in a hurry!!! these guys know that they have ten years tops...thats why they dont want to waste years being on a nowhere team..can you understand that?

Can you understand that if a player commits to staying to an organization, then the organization won't make stupid deals to try and keep the player and then the organization has a chance at being competitive.. IE Kings, IE San Antonio, IE Dallas

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 08:55 PM
@SACTOWN what KG did not get traded to the celtics he would have rotted there!! dont you think he wanted to win a title? This is a business and we as fans need to understand that. I do

Sactown
11-07-2011, 08:58 PM
@SACTOWN what KG did not get traded to the celtics he would have rotted there!! dont you think he wanted to win a title? This is a business and we as fans need to understand that. I do

And what I'm saying is KG was loyal! he spend the prime of his career competing for a championship with the Wolves and had a legit shot at getting a ring... when he realized it was to late to do it with the wolves he moved to the Celtics RESPECTFULLY

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 09:00 PM
Also in the same vein if a player commits long term there is no pressure to get a real team or help they can just say hey i got a superstar so i can take my time...look at the clippers and the suns they look at money not the team. players see that imagine your lebron..you bring in almost $200 million into a city with your likeness but you cant get a player next to you that can put up at least 17 points a game?

Chronz
11-07-2011, 09:04 PM
As a Kings fan I still cherish the time we had during the early 2000's and we still enjoying seeing Doug Christie and Bobby Jackson at Arco.. we still cheer when Chris Webber walks in.. even though he didn't win a ring and went out on one knee.. you will still see kings fans wearing his jersey.. and when it came a point where he wasn't a star anymore we tried to trade him to a championship caliber team. He will always be remember in this organization, and that's why we retired his jersey. That's what WE fans want to see

You have a very fond recollection of Webbers return and subsequent trade after his injuries. They didnt try to trade him to a championship team at all, since when is a .500 team a championship caliber team anyways? Webber wanted to remain the man and his team wanted him to move on, he refused and it really hurt their chemistry. They had no choice but to trade Webber, ownership doesnt care if the fans love him, they know the fans love winning even more and will move on no matter how great their former stars used to be.

daleja424
11-07-2011, 09:05 PM
I wouldnt want a guy on my team that didnt want to be there...

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 09:06 PM
KG was not loyal he got paid and he played like a employee...plain and simple...why do we have this fantasy that the player should bleed the team colors like the fans do..they get paid to play just like you get paid to go to work..and dont bring up the amount of money they get its supply and demand..they bring in so much money from jerseys with there name on the back or shoes they sell or playing cards what ever they dont see lebron and kobe generate close to 900 million dollars alone.

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:09 PM
Also in the same vein if a player commits long term there is no pressure to get a real team or help they can just say hey i got a superstar so i can take my time...look at the clippers and the suns they look at money not the team. players see that imagine your lebron..you bring in almost $200 million into a city with your likeness but you cant get a player next to you that can put up at least 17 points a game?

The cavs were trying to win a title and if you honestly believe Dan Gilbert was okay with constantly coming into second just to make more money you're insane.. They were over 20mil OVER the cap.. he wasn't just rolling around in cash.. the Suns were competitive through most of this decade and they weren't sitting under the cap either.. teams have been spending.. not just sitting there and that's because they want to win! the owners are multi millionaires/billionaires ... they didn't decide to own an NBA team because they need the money.

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:11 PM
You have a very fond recollection of Webbers return and subsequent trade after his injuries. They didnt try to trade him to a championship team at all, since when is a .500 team a championship caliber team anyways? Webber wanted to remain the man and his team wanted him to move on, he refused and it really hurt their chemistry. They had no choice but to trade Webber, ownership doesnt care if the fans love him, they know the fans love winning even more and will move on no matter how great their former stars used to be.

I recall Iverson saying he just needed one more star to get over the hump and thought Webber could be it.. :eyebrow:

daleja424
11-07-2011, 09:11 PM
he spent money... but he did it horribly.

He had a chance to keep Lebron... but he decided he didnt want to trade hickson for amare :rolleyes:

Gilbert certainly through money at the problem...but he never put anything around Lebron.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-07-2011, 09:14 PM
With a team he does not want to stay with so the city to be happy? Damn that players dreams or wants?...If he does not want to be there he will leave there is nothing that can change that ..the only way is to get rid of free agency all together and just make 15 year contracts..I just dont get what people want from these players.

It's more about the team not being screwed over if they leave.

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 09:15 PM
17 wins...thats how much the cavs had when lebron got there...kobe and the lakers already had shaq...bird had mchale the magic had kareem....where was lebrons co-star?...I really think the public wanted him to be jordan taking 30 shots a game when he wanted to play team ball and thats where the disconect was ...sure he could do it but thats not how HE wanted to play.

Tony_Starks
11-07-2011, 09:16 PM
Forreal its not like Minnesota was intentionally trying to do KG this huge solid by getting him to a contender. They actually had a better deal on the table from the Lakers. It was a handshake deal between two old Celtic buddies and at the time Boston was a laughingstock of a team with fans with bags on their heads, and Rondo was a scrub nobody. Just so happens they worked another trade later to get Ray and had the perfect storm but that was by no means some loyal move to get a longtime faithful player a ring. The turnaround that Boston did has happened like twice in the history of the nba.


Lets not re-write history after the fact.

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:19 PM
Forreal its not like Minnesota was intentionally trying to do KG this huge solid by getting him to a contender. They actually had a better deal on the table from the Lakers. It was a handshake deal between two old Celtic buddies and at the time Boston was a laughingstock of a team with fans with bags on their heads, and Rondo was a scrub nobody. Just so happens they worked another trade later to get Ray and had the perfect storm but that was by no means some loyal move to get a longtime faithful player a ring. The turnaround that Boston did has happened like twice in the history of the nba.


Lets not re-write history after the fact.

If you honestly think putting KG next to Paul Pierce is going to have a bad outcome then you've got to be kidding me.

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:19 PM
he spent money... but he did it horribly.

He had a chance to keep Lebron... but he decided he didnt want to trade hickson for amare :rolleyes:

Gilbert certainly through money at the problem...but he never put anything around Lebron.

But money wasn't an option if winning was the outcome...

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:22 PM
17 wins...thats how much the cavs had when lebron got there...kobe and the lakers already had shaq...bird had mchale the magic had kareem....where was lebrons co-star?...I really think the public wanted him to be jordan taking 30 shots a game when he wanted to play team ball and thats where the disconect was ...sure he could do it but thats not how HE wanted to play.

You've got to be kidding me :eyebrow: you think Lebron didn't have another star because ESPN wanted to paint him out as the next MJ? and you honestly think the best players in the draft should be drafted next to super stars?

mdm692
11-07-2011, 09:26 PM
Unfortunately not every franchise can have a "steve nash" type player who chooses to stay with a mediocre team eventhough the FO refuses to replace the other stars that have left via FA or trades. I respect nash more than any champion who ran around chasing rings as much as i would love to see hill and nash play in okc or nyc and compete for a ring im proud to see there are some players who actually have loyalty to their franchises.

Tony_Starks
11-07-2011, 09:28 PM
If you honestly think putting KG next to Paul Pierce is going to have a bad outcome then you've got to be kidding me.



Who said bad outcome? You made it seem like they sent him off to a contender and Im saying at the time with just him and Pierce and a unproven Rondo they were far from it.....

mdm692
11-07-2011, 09:30 PM
But money wasn't an option if winning was the outcome...

then why didnt they trade for amare suns were willing to take on jjhickson but cavs declined

ink
11-07-2011, 09:34 PM
There's nothing wrong with free agency. It just needs to be balanced so we don't have the 2010 phenomenon again and all the superstars watch each other bailing on their teams.

One thing none of us has talked about is how the "dream team" Olympic phenomenon has ended up backfiring on the league. The idea was to form a team to win gold for your country, and these guys missed the message and got the distorted notion that colluding to win is all that matters. So they decided to go out and create their own super teams. Backfire on the league.

ajnapoleon
11-07-2011, 09:44 PM
@Ink how do you balance free agency...tell said player that you cant go to that team because the other guy on that team is to good? meanwhile a team like the lakers with a very smart front office can stack players and have two seven footers that can play?

Sactown
11-07-2011, 09:46 PM
then why didnt they trade for amare suns were willing to take on jjhickson but cavs declined

I think that was a poor evaluation of talent rather than a money issue as JJ was only owed 1.6 mil.

ink
11-07-2011, 10:24 PM
@Ink how do you balance free agency...tell said player that you cant go to that team because the other guy on that team is to good? meanwhile a team like the lakers with a very smart front office can stack players and have two seven footers that can play?

That's the million dollar question isn't it? Just because the answer is difficult doesn't mean that they shouldn't work towards that goal and just let talent head for the biggest markets over and over again.

One interesting idea I saw recently (in the NY Times) suggested that players could be offered equity in the franchises, not final say equity, but equity so that it was in their own interests to make the team successful. Money talks to these guys right?

gwrighter
11-07-2011, 10:34 PM
That's the million dollar question isn't it? Just because the answer is difficult doesn't mean that they shouldn't work towards that goal and just let talent head for the biggest markets over and over again.

One interesting idea I saw recently (in the NY Times) suggested that players could be offered equity in the franchises, not final say equity, but equity so that it was in their own interests to make the team successful. Money talks to these guys right?

That's a conflict of interest imo. If this happened then these players would cease to be players & now become owners and players. That would create a rift among 'equity' players & regular players. I also think it's bad for the league when players are playing the team building role.

Kevj77
11-07-2011, 10:36 PM
There's nothing wrong with free agency. It just needs to be balanced so we don't have the 2010 phenomenon again and all the superstars watch each other bailing on their teams.

One thing none of us has talked about is how the "dream team" Olympic phenomenon has ended up backfiring on the league. The idea was to form a team to win gold for your country, and these guys missed the message and got the distorted notion that colluding to win is all that matters. So they decided to go out and create their own super teams. Backfire on the league.That is really what all this boils down to the free agent class of 2010, Melo not want to sign an extension, and the possibility that Howard and CP3 might try to bolt on their teams.

I don't know if there is a way to stop this. It seems like teaming up is just part of the mindset of this generation of players.

ink
11-07-2011, 10:40 PM
That's a conflict of interest imo. If this happened then these players would cease to be players & now become owners and players. That would create a rift among 'equity' players & regular players. I also think it's bad for the league when players are playing the team building role.

I could be wrong on this one but I think the NHL set precedent on this one again with Mario Lemieux. The Penguins were insolvent and the league arranged a pay out of the massive amounts that were still owed to him by giving him part ownership of the club while he was still a player. Lemieux was owed about $32 million in deferred salary, he forgave about $7M, and settled on $25M equity in the team. I know that's a special circumstance but it has been done before.

astrosmaniac
11-07-2011, 10:50 PM
Also in the same vein if a player commits long term there is no pressure to get a real team or help they can just say hey i got a superstar so i can take my time...look at the clippers and the suns they look at money not the team. players see that imagine your lebron..you bring in almost $200 million into a city with your likeness but you cant get a player next to you that can put up at least 17 points a game?

i just think the clippers have an inept FO, not a disrespect for the players.

and the suns did just about everything they could to try and contend by surrounding nash with all-star level talent like marion, amare, shaq (he wasnt the old shaq but still played well there). it just didnt work out


my main issue is guys saying, "i want out, but im only going to to to team A or team B". if you want to go to those teams bad enough, play out your contract and sign there. otherwise request a trade off the team and STFU. beggars can't be choosers

topdog
11-07-2011, 10:53 PM
Oh poor players! Lebron's dreams of kickin' it in South Beach could one day be just a memory...

Seriously, the dream is to play in th NBA. If you want that job, you go where it calls you. It's not unlike other jobs. Example: my brother has a business degree, he went to a job fair shortly after college, gets an interview and more-or-less gets a job offer BUT the job they were offering was in Nebraska. If he wanted THAT JOB he would have to move.

gwrighter
11-07-2011, 10:53 PM
I could be wrong on this one but I think the NHL set precedent on this one again with Mario Lemieux. The Penguins were insolvent and the league arranged a pay out of the massive amounts that were still owed to him by giving him part ownership of the club while he was still a player. Lemieux was owed about $32 million in deferred salary, he forgave about $7M, and settled on $25M equity in the team. I know that's a special circumstance but it has been done before.

In that case I can see this kind of compensation being adequate if a team owes a player that much money. But to transfer equity to some 19 year old rookie phenom before it is owed sounds like a disaster waiting to happen lol. that gives these players too much power imo.

Kevj77
11-07-2011, 11:05 PM
Oh poor players! Lebron's dreams of kickin' it in South Beach could one day be just a memory...

Seriously, the dream is to play in th NBA. If you want that job, you go where it calls you. It's not unlike other jobs. Example: my brother has a business degree, he went to a job fair shortly after college, gets an interview and more-or-less gets a job offer BUT the job they were offering was in Nebraska. If he wanted THAT JOB he would have to move.NBA players already have to do that, their first job is from the team that drafts them. Not letting them decide where to go as free agents is different. It would be like your brother getting work experience for 7 years, while at the same time getting a graduate degree then telling him he couldn't interview with certain companies.

mdm692
11-07-2011, 11:17 PM
And what I'm saying is KG was loyal! he spend the prime of his career competing for a championship with the Wolves and had a legit shot at getting a ring... when he realized it was to late to do it with the wolves he moved to the Celtics RESPECTFULLY

This is the difference between the players now and before. Players such as lebron make a mockery of chasing rings embarrassing the nba and franchises such as the cavaliers. While you guys think im just hating, i really am not there is certain way to do business and chase rings and i assure you that using the media to blow things out of proportion is not the right way. You either give it all to win a ring or go to your front office and ask for a trade or better pieces to help your team reach the desired goal of winning it all

ink
11-07-2011, 11:53 PM
In that case I can see this kind of compensation being adequate if a team owes a player that much money. But to transfer equity to some 19 year old rookie phenom before it is owed sounds like a disaster waiting to happen lol. that gives these players too much power imo.

For the record, here's the article - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/sports/basketball/nba-needs-a-drastically-different-model.html?pagewanted=all

Lord Leoshes
11-08-2011, 12:01 AM
The NBA where comunisum still lives. :facepalm:


Whats next, is D Stern going to change everyones name to tobi? :(

Tony_Starks
11-08-2011, 12:05 AM
That's the million dollar question isn't it? Just because the answer is difficult doesn't mean that they shouldn't work towards that goal and just let talent head for the biggest markets over and over again.

One interesting idea I saw recently (in the NY Times) suggested that players could be offered equity in the franchises, not final say equity, but equity so that it was in their own interests to make the team successful. Money talks to these guys right?


I got the simple answer for you. You can't stop it. You can try to make it as difficult as possible for something like that to happen again but if guys want to play together there's nothing that can be done about it. As there shouldn't be. Thats why its called FREE agency.

So if so called "super teams" and "collusion" seriously bothers you then you are in for some difficult years ahead my friend.......

Sactown
11-08-2011, 12:07 AM
This is the difference between the players now and before. Players such as lebron make a mockery of chasing rings embarrassing the nba and franchises such as the cavaliers. While you guys think im just hating, i really am not there is certain way to do business and chase rings and i assure you that using the media to blow things out of proportion is not the right way. You either give it all to win a ring or go to your front office and ask for a trade or better pieces to help your team reach the desired goal of winning it all

Ring chasing has started earlier than Lebron.. look at magic when he refused to go to the bulls... and shaqs been ring chasing for years...

Tony_Starks
11-08-2011, 12:13 AM
The amount over people that are seriously still bent out of shape over the notion of friends wanting to play and win together is truly alarming. I got the initial alarm of it but for it to continue to be this "thats whats wrong with the league today" sort of mantra is kind of sad and depressing........

It kind of reminds me of when everyone was first getting tatted it was "thats whats wrong with the nba today!!" Come on people, the game changes and evolves just like society. Enjoy it or stop watching.

ink
11-08-2011, 12:26 AM
I got the simple answer for you. You can't stop it. You can try to make it as difficult as possible for something like that to happen again but if guys want to play together there's nothing that can be done about it. As there shouldn't be. Thats why its called FREE agency.

So if so called "super teams" and "collusion" seriously bothers you then you are in for some difficult years ahead my friend.......

That's pretty cynical. Collusion FTW!!! :rock:

I'm going with the optimistic approach that we already hit rock bottom in 2010 and can only go up from here. :D

Sinestro
11-08-2011, 12:29 AM
IMO owners are terrified of the power that "Star" players have in crippling their franchies by leaving them, that being said the NBA is a business and should be conducted as such, an owner gives a player a contract as long as they fulfill it they should be allowed to go where they wish

Kevj77
11-08-2011, 12:30 AM
Yes it is sad. So is the idea players shouldn't get to decide where they play as free agents because they prefer certain destinations, or saying Magic refused to play for the Bulls when they never had the first pick. All Magic said was if they did, which was a hypothetical question he would have stayed in school. He was only 19, a sophmore on the national champs would staying in school have been so terrible.

It seems like certain people don't think these players can make decisions for themselves.

Tony_Starks
11-08-2011, 12:34 AM
^Whats even worse its they don't want them to make their own decisions. When they do its like, "the nerve of these selfish bastards!"

I really miss the good ol days of just enjoying basketball when people would just cheer for their team win lose or draw, and nobody was crying about what players were going where or how much certain players were getting paid.

Now we're a part of the "THATS NOT FAIR" era.....

ink
11-08-2011, 12:35 AM
Whats even worse its they don't want them to make their own decisions. When they do its like, the nerve of these selfish bastards!

Strawman.

Bruno
11-08-2011, 12:46 AM
Players should be able to go wherever they want, so long as they give their teams the opportunity to get fair value for them in return. When players make is seem like they are staying for good, and bolt with no prior notice when FA hits, there's conflict.

If star players move, their teams should get fair value in return. See the Melo trade.

mdm692
11-08-2011, 01:53 AM
Ring chasing has started earlier than Lebron.. look at magic when he refused to go to the bulls... and shaqs been ring chasing for years...

yeah ring chasing is ok theres just a certain way to approach everything.

abe_froman
11-08-2011, 03:36 AM
if they dont want to? no.its unamerican.if i'm unhappy at my job ,i'm not forced to stay;if i want to move to another city,i can.so why should i want to deny others to the same rights

astrosmaniac
11-08-2011, 11:45 AM
exactly, you arent forced. and neither are players. they can leave the nba. they can work somewhere else. if a player wants to leave in FA, fine. my biggest issue is people who sign huge contracts (say in the 6 years, $100+ million range) and then decide 3 years later they want out and say "trade me to team A". thats not how it works. you made the conscious decision to sign there, live up to your end of the deal

ajnapoleon
11-08-2011, 12:30 PM
@astromaniac lebron did that and he was still hated he never asked for a trade or ask to be let out of his contract he was free to leave but the cavs want picks in return? that dont make and sense. the contract was over