PDA

View Full Version : You are 21-29 once...



ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 09:37 AM
Why don't Fans understand these players are human and they dont want to waste years on a bad team?...for christ sake you are only 21-29 once in your life you dont get those years back no matter how much money you make!! Just to show some damn loyaty to some fans that only like you because you can play ball better than some others?...with todays media you dont win a 5 rings by your 5-6th year you a bust and should not be able to smile or have some type of fun until you do?..theses guys do not want to go down like that... if you was any one of them and seen what the older legends have had like bird and that front line and magic and his top 50 teamates ...what would you want?

KnicksorBust
11-05-2011, 10:00 AM
Well I think the thing is guys like Dwight and LeBron do still sign their first team extention and if in 7 years you can't surround them with 1 teammate good enough to help them win a ring then it's justifiable.

TheNumber37
11-05-2011, 10:14 AM
If an Nba players doesn't believe he can compete on a championship team over the age of 30, than he really doesn't deserve a spot on a roster. I understand that they won't be in their physical primes for ever, but if by age 30 if you are an all star level talent and you decide to make it easier on yourself by walking or forcing a trade to a team where you beleive you have a better chance at winning it all, than it's no suprise why they wouldn't have ring at this point. It's actually not about winning, it's about taking on a challenge and overcoming it. If they don't have the desire to overcome odds to win it all then they don't really have the true heart of a champion and don't deserve rings

nate2usmc
11-05-2011, 10:26 AM
^^^^^ Yeah AI did that with an average team...does he have a ring?

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 10:44 AM
What most dont understand a good portion of it is not in your control..if your teammate miss a defensive rotation and allows a lay-up in the last 30 seconds is it your fault that the team lost? Or your last second jumper rimmed out your a loser? its a team game take your life in your own hands and if your team had 7 years to give you a soild teammate that can at least draw a double team and could not do it you would at least think about moving right?...i just dont get it barkley gets the you did not win a title in his face almost every day..you dont think these players dont pay attention? remember lebron and these guys watch and learn and when he said the 80's teams had monter teams was he wrong? ..go back and look at those rosters you will be amazed who was on those teams at the same time!

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 10:50 AM
Also Iverson did it all by his self and what did he run into? shaq kobe and glen rice!!! if he had a bad shooting night the 76'rs was done you need help damn!! there is no such thing as you did it it your self...and to those that said MJ,Magic and bird would not be on the same team ..when they came in it was damn near slave deals...magic had a 20 year contract..bird never was a free agent!! and they came in in 79-80...MJ had a 10 year contract and he damn near was a knick look it up!

mdm692
11-05-2011, 10:59 AM
Didnt magic and bird hate each other since college?? Im pretty sure they would not team up. MJ was too much of a competitor to team up with any superstar of his era but we will never know.

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 11:00 AM
Those 80s teams were stacked from top to bottom. Hall of famers all over the place

SeoulBeatz
11-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Didnt magic and bird hate each other since college?? Im pretty sure they would not team up. MJ was too much of a competitor to team up with any superstar of his era but we will never know.

Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 11:33 AM
Whats also funny is that have you wonder why Wilt the most dominante plaer ever with all those records only have one title and had to join the lakers with a jerry west to get it?...because you need help!!!...and stop it with the ebird and magic hated each other they would never get together ...magic and bird landed on already made teams!! for christ sake...none of theses guys including kobe have never had to drafted to a team with 17 damn wins!! thats starting form nothing..look who was there when those people got there..magic did not want to get drafted by the bulls...why because they sucked thats why!!..carmelo lebron and wade and bosh ended on teams with nothing wade got a title because riley got him a 31 year old Shaq..it takes pressure off the star player not to hit every damn shot or grab every rebound whats so hard to understand its a damn team game?

Cosmic_Canon
11-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

Let's say, if Magic and Bird never had Kareem/McHale as team-mates and they were on mediocre teams for the first 8 years of their career, do you REALLY believe they would of stayed if greener pastures awaited in Free Agency? Especially, if said greener pastures allowed them to play together, it's crazy to say they wouldn't even consider it. This is why, these old players kill me about dissing Lebron/Melo/new school of players. It's one thing to say "Oh, I would never team up and leave my team", when you CONSTANTLY on great teams and RARELY had the opportunity to leave.

So let's just end the "Magic or Jordan would of never done that" talk.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 11:40 AM
Thank you somebody gets it!! @ Cosmic_Canon!!

pd1dish
11-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Well I think the thing is guys like Dwight and LeBron do still sign their first team extention and if in 7 years you can't surround them with 1 teammate good enough to help them win a ring then it's justifiable.

i agree. it was 100% justifiable for Lebron to leave Cleveland. i just dont like how he went about doing it like many others. he should have been a man and good person to an organization that had been loyal to him since they drafted him. he should have told them he was going to leave ahead of time because he knew ahead of time he was going to leave. he would have still been criticized because, for Lebron, it was a double edged sword no matter how he chose to leave Cleveland, but it wouldnt have been as bad as it actually went down.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 12:05 PM
PD1DISH..i got you on all that very true..but what is loyalty in sports? if Lebron hurt himself and cant play like he was ...do you think the front office would wait on him to heal and get back to the player he was? or trade him while they could to better the team?..Once again he was only valuable because he could play that way not because he was born there..billips was born in denver and came back to play but denver sent him packing because he fit the trade proposal not because they was loyal to him..when does the loyalty thing end ? its a joke

CousinsEvansDUO
11-05-2011, 12:11 PM
I completely agree. Demarcus Cousins and Tyreke Evans are young. Derrick rose will only be 21-29 for oh so long so he needs to join the kings and the BIG 3 KINGS will win 10 tittles in a row!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 12:17 PM
CousinsEvansDUO...do you understand that all these players signed two contracts with the team that drafted them?..7 years..how much longer do you want? be real and answer that question those guys you just said are on the rookie contract im taking about the players that are on the 3rd one..

RevisIsland
11-05-2011, 12:25 PM
Quick question, haven't put too much thought into it, but it came to mind: if the fans are who make the players successful, then don't they owe the fans at least their loyalty? Without the fans a lot of them would be flipping burgers. That's what pisses me off about players who don't respect their fans. We're the ones who made you. Without the game we've allowed to succeed you may not have a job.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 12:35 PM
RevisIsland you do owe the fans loyalty...but when does it become what you want as a person come in? never? or when your not the player you once was?...like i said being in the public eye all the time cannot be easy you have to say and do the right things every second its like you cant be human...i really think these players no matter what sports want to say what they really think and not be PC all the time..

CousinsEvansDUO
11-05-2011, 12:46 PM
CousinsEvansDUO...do you understand that all these players signed two contracts with the team that drafted them?..7 years..how much longer do you want? be real and answer that question those guys you just said are on the rookie contract im taking about the players that are on the 3rd one..

I completely agree with you a third contract is the time when people must look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves this question " why is this team not winning, what is the problem, is there a possibility to fix this issue or will i have to move my talents elsewhere"

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 12:53 PM
CousinsEvansDUO..thats all im saying its about that time where you ask those questions...and if you want to see what else is there and join a different team and see so be it..it that persons life to live not yours .. I understand the passion but not the hate....I think fans take it as a personal insult a player does not want to play in the state they love a grew up in..

KnicksorBust
11-05-2011, 01:09 PM
Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

:)

http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dream_team_71496896.jpg?w=300

Evolution23
11-05-2011, 01:33 PM
I agree you should do whatever it takes to win. People are getting behind Kevin Durant because he signed with OKC long term but would he have done the same if he didn't have Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, and good balanced team? Not every one gets lucky to have a chance to win this early on in their career.

With that said I'm not mad at Lebron or Melo for leaving and trying to win a ring with another team because at the end of the day you have to do what ever it takes to win.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Evolution23...and thats the thing Durant did not do anything that lebron wade and carmelo and paul did....durant just signed the same contract after his rookie season that they did yet he is being a great guy and humble...they all did the same thing..they just did not sign the 3rd one

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

I remember reading somewhere that when the Lakers and Celtics would square off in the 80's, the players and their fanbases had such a deep-rooted rivalry (bordering on hatred), that when they would visit each other's arenas they would turn off the hot water in the visiting showers.

Now THAT is something you would never see today because everyone is friends. How many times do you see guys foul an opposing player and help him up? Simply put, the competitive fire in today's NBA is nowhere near where it was just 15 years ago.

IndyRealist
11-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Evolution23...and thats the thing Durant did not do anything that lebron wade and carmelo and paul did....durant just signed the same contract after his rookie season that they did yet he is being a great guy and humble...they all did the same thing..they just did not sign the 3rd one

And at the time everyone thought Melo and Lebron were great too, for signing those extensions. Perceptions might change in 5 years if Durant doesn't have a ring and jumps ship. But you're looking at it in hindsight.

ink
11-05-2011, 02:00 PM
Some win some lose. Players have only started whining like this since the last couple of crap CBAs created entitlement throughout the league. Those players should arrange meetings with the all time greats who don't have rings for some character lessons.

Sactown
11-05-2011, 02:02 PM
Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

Didn't Magic refuse to play for the bulls? If a star coming out of the draft pulled that all hell would break loose.. He wanted to be on a championship caliber team...

ink
11-05-2011, 02:05 PM
Those 80s teams were stacked from top to bottom. Hall of famers all over the place

They CREATED their hall of fame careers on the court, not in the backroom making deals to play with their BFFs. Those teams were also mainly created from within.


Yes they did.

They were rivals, they weren't bff's like Wade and Lebron.

Magic would never team up with Bird, and that's something i respect. Back when NBA rivalries were real.

Agreed. People buy into incredible phoniness today, just look at the "which side are you on?" threads that keep coming up here. You could basically take a snapshot of all fan obsessions these days and the root of it would be phony, it would be based on some kind of marketing. Remember, both the NBA and the media market their products. All the player comparison, power rankings, top 10s, advanced stats, fantasy leagues, etc should be secondary to the actual game. They're all superfluous, created largely by web media that wants higher ad revenue because of the number of hits they can get to their sites. Fans fall for this **** because they don't really follow the sports anymore, they follow all the peripheral crap. The whole understanding of the game has moved away from the actual game to the fantasy game. So people tend to fight over heroes 24/7 and this "rings" ******** comes up again and again and it has made it all the way back to the athletes. No self-respecting athlete would have ever concerned themselves with this ****, but the crop from 2000 on does. The league's credibility has imploded because of marketing priorities taking over from sport priorities. What people fight about in this forum has little to do with the actual sport.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 02:25 PM
PD1DISH..i got you on all that very true..but what is loyalty in sports? if Lebron hurt himself and cant play like he was ...do you think the front office would wait on him to heal and get back to the player he was? or trade him while they could to better the team?..Once again he was only valuable because he could play that way not because he was born there..billips was born in denver and came back to play but denver sent him packing because he fit the trade proposal not because they was loyal to him..when does the loyalty thing end ? its a joke


You're right about that, there's no loyalty from owners or fans. When Gilbert Arenas was in allstar form, knocking down game winners left and right, and taking a team that used to be a mockery consistently to the playoffs he was the toast of the town. Management had no problem giving him a monster contract. Everybody loved Gilbert. Then he got hurt and made some stupid decisions and guess what those same fans were saying "He should be banned from the league! They should void his contract!" Wait what about all that good stuff he did? Right out the window.

The players have to do whats best for them because at the end of the day the owners and fans are just going to say what have you done for me lately....

mdm692
11-05-2011, 03:25 PM
They CREATED their hall of fame careers on the court, not in the backroom making deals to play with their BFFs. Those teams were also mainly created from within.



Agreed. People buy into incredible phoniness today, just look at the "which side are you on?" threads that keep coming up here. You could basically take a snapshot of all fan obsessions these days and the root of it would be phony, it would be based on some kind of marketing. Remember, both the NBA and the media market their products. All the player comparison, power rankings, top 10s, advanced stats, fantasy leagues, etc should be secondary to the actual game. They're all superfluous, created largely by web media that wants higher ad revenue because of the number of hits they can get to their sites. Fans fall for this **** because they don't really follow the sports anymore, they follow all the peripheral crap. The whole understanding of the game has moved away from the actual game to the fantasy game. So people tend to fight over heroes 24/7 and this "rings" ******** comes up again and again and it has made it all the way back to the athletes. No self-respecting athlete would have ever concerned themselves with this ****, but the crop from 2000 on does. The league's credibility has imploded because of marketing priorities taking over from sport priorities. What people fight about in this forum has little to do with the actual sport.

agree 100% every hof player on those teams made their own career with their hard work and contribution its not like they were hof before they signed.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 03:34 PM
I guess some fans are getting it.. I keep hearing that well those super teams where built from within... You mean those front offices that was smart and had a big market or have a tradition of winning right?... Look at the celtics and the players they drafted that's was smart and they wanted to win ... The funny thing I remember when Jordan was winning I said to myself why don't some these players come together and beat the bulls... But they all wanted money but not the ring I never understood it... Perfect example was Dom Wilkins was a free agent about 32 or 33 and the Knicks still was good in about 95 him on that team would have beaten that bulls dynasty the knicks had some cap room....what's does Wilkins do... He singed with the celtics who at that time was bad ...just for the money....know we got players who want to take a pay cut or come together and we make them villains because they did not want to jack up 45 shots a game with no help .... Wow.... What happened to a team ... Now we want them to be Jordan all over again I really think Jordan ruined the game being a one man show.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 04:16 PM
I guess some fans are getting it.. I keep hearing that well those super teams where built from within... You mean those front offices that was smart and had a big market or have a tradition of winning right?... Look at the celtics and the players they drafted that's was smart and they wanted to win ... The funny thing I remember when Jordan was winning I said to myself why don't some these players come together and beat the bulls... But they all wanted money but not the ring I never understood it... Perfect example was Dom Wilkins was a free agent about 32 or 33 and the Knicks still was good in about 95 him on that team would have beaten that bulls dynasty the knicks had some cap room....what's does Wilkins do... He singed with the celtics who at that time was bad ...just for the money....know we got players who want to take a pay cut or come together and we make them villains because they did not want to jack up 45 shots a game with no help .... Wow.... What happened to a team ... Now we want them to be Jordan all over again I really think Jordan ruined the game being a one man show.


The thing is people use this "super team" stuff as a cop out. That ridiculousness didn't even start until Miami pulled off what they did. But no one ever accused Jordan of playing on a "super team" when he was playing with the best rebounder/defender pf ever, possibly the best 2 way sf ever, a 3point shooting champ, and at the time the best euro player coming off the bench. With Phil as the coach.Then it was just MJ and the "supporting cast" and he got all the credit. Or when Detroit had 4 allstars with Chauncey,Sheed, Rip, Ben. Oh that was perfectly cool and they got praised for they're great "teamwork."


But now if you dare to play with another allstar then oh man all hell breaks loose like "what in the world are these selfish jerks doing wanting to play with other talented players? Why can't they just all stategically station themselves in small markets across the league and knock each other out in the 2nd round every year until they retire?"

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 04:22 PM
They CREATED their hall of fame careers on the court, not in the backroom making deals to play with their BFFs. Those teams were also mainly created from within.

------------------------------

But in many cases those players went to teams with a good foundation of talent or smart individuals in the FO. If you're Magic there would be no point in leaving LA and the same goes for Bird.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 04:33 PM
BINGO!!!!! @ TONY STARKS!!! That's what people want!! Amazing huh!!!?

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 04:36 PM
The thing is people use this "super team" stuff as a cop out. That ridiculousness didn't even start until Miami pulled off what they did. But no one ever accused Jordan of playing on a "super team" when he was playing with the best rebounder/defender pf ever, possibly the best 2 way sf ever, a 3point shooting champ, and at the time the best euro player coming off the bench. With Phil as the coach.Then it was just MJ and the "supporting cast" and he got all the credit. Or when Detroit had 4 allstars with Chauncey,Sheed, Rip, Ben. Oh that was perfectly cool and they got praised for they're great "teamwork."


But now if you dare to play with another allstar then oh man all hell breaks loose like "what in the world are these selfish jerks doing wanting to play with other talented players? Why can't they just all stategically station themselves in small markets across the league and knock each other out in the 2nd round every year until they retire?"

Sure. But how were all of those teams created?

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 04:40 PM
Sure. But how were all of those teams created?


The same way all great teams are: competent trades, drafting, and FA signings.

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 04:53 PM
The same way all great teams are: competent trades, drafting, and FA signings.

Which is vastly different then All-Stars planning out their destinations years in advance.

Comparing the 90's Bulls or this decade's Pistons is doing a great disservice to the players and FO's of those respective teams. Could you have envisioned trading away a prime Grant Hill would land Detroit one of the best defensive players EVER in Ben Wallace who went UNDRAFTED?? Sorry to say, but those Bulls and Pistons teams had their nucleus formed organically through various routes, and it took time for them to gel and pick up steam before they dominated.

What players nowadays are doing is going behind closed doors and operating under the buddy system to try and form these "super teams" by forcing their teams hands to trade them to a destination that THEY want or walk away for nothing. That's just wrong.

Look at what Carmelo did with Denver this past year. He *****ed and whined to the media and openly said he wanted to go to NY and refused to accept a trade to NJ by rejecting the possibility of an extension. Not only did he hold his FO hostage, he held his teammates and fans hostage by being a cancer and a distraction leading up to his departure. Look what happened to Denver after he left.

Kudos to the Jazz FO for not allowing themselves to potentially be pigeon-holed by Deron and trading him while his value was still sky high in that rape of a deal with the Nets.

If everyone wants superteams then you might as well contract 20 teams in the league and let the last 10 duke it out for the ship every year. Don't think that it would cheapen the title of being crowned NBA champions?

Muttman73
11-05-2011, 04:54 PM
You know if the talented athletes just used their head and kept their mouths shut they could pretty much do whatever they wanted in their careers and nobody would care. LeBron and to a lesser extent Melo ruined that by being the biggest, most arrogant pricks they could possibly be and basically shoving it down not only management but the fans throats. The average NBA fan who simply wants to see his team win is disgusted by this new wave of player.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 04:59 PM
Once again can someboy tell me how long or how many years do a player stay with a team that he knows that the front office may or may not have the personnel to get him what he needs to win? Until his prime is over or 7-8 years? I still cannot get a good answer.... It's like they want you to stay there until he is not playing at a all-star level anymore then they trade you to "better the team or get a new superstar" that's what it seems like..Kobe and MJ had all-star and top 50 teammates and a hall of fame coach.... So did bird and magic wade only won because he had the same hall of fame coach magic did ... And a hall of fame teammate in his prime.... What did Lebron have or Carmelo shoot the more I think about it the main point is the coach is the main thing that is needed ... Riley and Jackson understood you need a team to win Even if Jordan somehow got all the credit... You need someone to set up and to pass to and someone to rebound and to set a pick it's a team game... When you do it alone you end up like iverson Vince carter and many many others... Be honest thats what these guys now are seeing.. And to those that say these guys should talk to the guys that did not win and learn that you don't always win... The guy that told Lebron to think about leaving was KG!!! He said don't waste your youth trying to be loyal on a team with now help... Those same people that say stay will spit on you for not winning... Look it up

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 05:03 PM
I just can't believe that TS is against the NBA adopting a waiver system similar to MLB. He won't even let the weakest teams get first access to players being discarded by their former teams. These teams need talent! At least 10 of them don't even have player's worthy of 6th man status on contending teams! So what is possibly wrong with giving these teams access to these players in lieu of taking on the stretch amnesty payment plan or better yet working a trade to get the player at an even lower cost? Why should these players be given immediate FA just so they can go sign under an MLE with a contender?

If you really are against that, then you are an advocate for a 20 team league, because you aren't giving these bottom 10 teams any chance at all.

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 05:07 PM
@ GODSON what do you want a player to do? If they want to move everything is out in open. It's not how it used to be of a player wants to be traded and ask the front office I bet you that will some how leak on sports center within mins!!!! And you know it !! Do you know how much crazy stuff was going on in the 80's? With magics orgy's? And barkleys fights and buying and crashing cars? If sports center was around then there would be a scandal every day!!! And the funny thing this "new wave" you speak of do not do anything like that they just twitter and tell there "fans" what they doing and thinking but that is worse huh? GTFOH

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 05:11 PM
@CHISOX... I don't mind the access but damn you can't force a player or a free human being to want to be in a city they don't want to be in! I dont have the answer to how to fix it but if a player don't want to be there they will wait to become a free agent and leave you can't stop that unless you do the slave deal that the player is there for life... Because I guess 7 years is not good enough the fans. Want more years smh

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 05:12 PM
Once again can someboy tell me how long or how many years do a player stay with a team that he knows that the front office may or may not have the personnel to get him what he needs to win? Until his prime is over or 7-8 years? I still cannot get a good answer.... It's like they want you to stay there until he is not playing at a all-star level anymore then they trade you to "better the team or get a new superstar" that's what it seems like..Kobe and MJ had all-star and top 50 teammates and a hall of fame coach.... So did bird and magic wade only won because he had the same hall of fame coach magic did ... And a hall of fame teammate in his prime.... What did Lebron have or Carmelo shoot the more I think about it the main point is the coach is the main thing that is needed ... Riley and Jackson understood you need a team to win Even if Jordan somehow got all the credit... You need someone to set up and to pass to and someone to rebound and to set a pick it's a team game... When you do it alone you end up like iverson Vince carter and many many others... Be honest thats what these guys now are seeing.. And to those that say these guys should talk to the guys that did not win and learn that you don't always win... The guy that told Lebron to think about leaving was KG!!! He said don't waste your youth trying to be loyal on a team with now help... Those same people that say stay will spit on you for not winning... Look it up

Explain the Carmelo situation to me then. Actually I'll break it down.

They had a dominant two-way (mainly defensive) front-court in Camby, Nene, K Mart and Birdman. Signed Andre Miller whom they traded for Allen Iverson, and later flipped for Chauncey Billups. The two latter names being multiple All-Stars in the league. They had one of the best 6th men in the league in JR Smith and an all-league defender/glue guy in Afflalo whose job was to shut down the opposing teams best player and make it easier on Anthony. Oh, and he also had one of the best coaches of the generation in George Karl who had finals experience and multiple DEEP playoff runs.

That Nuggets team was a WC powerhouse and was stacked, taking the Lakers to 6 games in the WCF just three years ago. They had all the supplementary pieces needed to surround a star player with, whom many claim Melo is, and yet they still couldn't win. Why? Maybe Carmelo just isn't as good as some people think. I bet if you put LeBron on that team instead of Glenn Robinson 2.0 they win at least 2 rings already.

Simply put, players nowadays just have this unearned sense of entitlement to them. Maybe deep down they suffer from insecurity and want to share the blame with another All-Star? Or maybe they realize they themselves are more hype than substance?

Kevj77
11-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Which is vastly different then All-Stars planning out their destinations years in advance.

Comparing the 90's Bulls or this decade's Pistons is doing a great disservice to the players and FO's of those respective teams. Could you have envisioned trading away a prime Grant Hill would land Detroit one of the best defensive players EVER in Ben Wallace who went UNDRAFTED?? Sorry to say, but those Bulls and Pistons teams had their nucleus formed organically through various routes, and it took time for them to gel and pick up steam before they dominated.

What players nowadays are doing is going behind closed doors and operating under the buddy system to try and form these "super teams" by forcing their teams hands to trade them to a destination that THEY want or walk away for nothing. That's just wrong.

Look at what Carmelo did with Denver this past year. He *****ed and whined to the media and openly said he wanted to go to NY and refused to accept a trade to NJ by rejecting the possibility of an extension. Not only did he hold his FO hostage, he held his teammates and fans hostage by being a cancer and a distraction leading up to his departure. Look what happened to Denver after he left.

Kudos to the Jazz FO for not allowing themselves to potentially be pigeon-holed by Deron and trading him while his value was still sky high in that rape of a deal with the Nets.

If everyone wants superteams then you might as well contract 20 teams in the league and let the last 10 duke it out for the ship every year. Don't think that it would cheapen the title of being crowned NBA champions?Melo handled it wrong in the media. Other than that I see nothing wrong with what he did. Melo played in Denver for 7 full seasons he informed the team he was not going to sign an extension and become a free agent. There was no reason for him to agree to sign an extension with a new team just to help Denver if he was willing to try his luck as a free agent after the season.

mdm692
11-05-2011, 05:15 PM
^^^Then what is the point of having a lot of teams if all the superstars/allstars will want to play only in big markets.

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 05:16 PM
Let's be honest. If every team had 2 stars there would be harmony in the league, all teams woudl be profitable, most teams would be contenders & league rev's would probably be over $5M. That should be the goal for the NBA. A 3 star team is overkill. Few champions in the league had that in the past, & it just appears as gluttonous. I think fans are just as happy over the Lakers demise in the playoffs as they are when the Heat lost to the Mavs. If the NBA exists primarly for the fans, then the NBA should devise rules to make the fans happy. It really is that simple.

So the challenge then is to devise a system that can get to a norm of 2 stars/team without severely compromising pay or movement on players. It's not easy, but again if you look at MLB it's all about weak teams getting access to player before they become stars. The draft alone can't do that. They need a supplemental draft like the Rule 5 in MLB. They need compensation for when they lose a star to FA, & they need first access to waived players that other teams can no longer afford. They also need serious revenue sharing. The bottomfeeders in MLB get as much in revenue sharing as they take in locally. All of these system changes in MLB have completely changed the competitive value of the league while the Yanks continue to sign pitchers to $23-25M/yr deals & hitters to $30M/yr deals. How many times have the Yanks won a WS in the past decade? The NBA should take a hard look at the system of MLB.

mdm692
11-05-2011, 05:18 PM
Melo handled it wrong in the media. Other than that I see nothing wrong with what he did. Melo played in Denver for 7 full seasons he informed the team he was not going to sign an extension and become a free agent. There was no reason for him to agree to sign an extension with a new team just to help Denver if he was willing to try his luck as a free agent after the season.

melo actually helped his team by asking for the ny trade look at all the pieces denver has now. Nj couldnt offer anything close to that

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 05:18 PM
^^^Then what is the point of having a lot of teams if all the superstars/allstars will want to play only in big markets.

My point exactly. Take away 20 teams and see how much that cheapens the title of being called NBA champs. It would literally become a joke bordering on CFL status.

As it currently stands (prior to the lockout) that's where the NBA was/is heading.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 05:35 PM
Which is vastly different then All-Stars planning out their destinations years in advance.

Comparing the 90's Bulls or this decade's Pistons is doing a great disservice to the players and FO's of those respective teams. Could you have envisioned trading away a prime Grant Hill would land Detroit one of the best defensive players EVER in Ben Wallace who went UNDRAFTED?? Sorry to say, but those Bulls and Pistons teams had their nucleus formed organically through various routes, and it took time for them to gel and pick up steam before they dominated.

What players nowadays are doing is going behind closed doors and operating under the buddy system to try and form these "super teams" by forcing their teams hands to trade them to a destination that THEY want or walk away for nothing. That's just wrong.

Look at what Carmelo did with Denver this past year. He *****ed and whined to the media and openly said he wanted to go to NY and refused to accept a trade to NJ by rejecting the possibility of an extension. Not only did he hold his FO hostage, he held his teammates and fans hostage by being a cancer and a distraction leading up to his departure. Look what happened to Denver after he left.

Kudos to the Jazz FO for not allowing themselves to potentially be pigeon-holed by Deron and trading him while his value was still sky high in that rape of a deal with the Nets.

If everyone wants superteams then you might as well contract 20 teams in the league and let the last 10 duke it out for the ship every year. Don't think that it would cheapen the title of being crowned NBA champions?


Chicago went to FA Rodman, who was still the best rebounding PF in the game, and Phil recruited him to come to Chicago. Rodman and Pippen talked, and he came. They had already had 2 of the best players in the league at the time and a host of good role players on a championship experienced team, yet nobody had a problem.

Now say the Lakers recruited a FA Steve Nash and he came over to a already good Laker squad today and they 3peated, everyone would be crying "Unfair! Unfair!" and people would be trying to change the rulesand crying about "superteams."

Same thing, only difference is now the league is more watered down so fans get mad that these guys don't want to go to the Torronto's or Indianna's of the world. But if you're a perinneal respected contender in a great location you're always going to be the first option....

ajnapoleon
11-05-2011, 05:38 PM
Once again these guys are human you can't force a player to be happy in a city he does not want to be and and smile about it... Just because he is getting money he is not happy he is not happy... Point blank

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 05:38 PM
Comparing the value of Rodman to the Bulls in their 2nd 3-peat to that of Nash joining the Lakers is a joke. Rodman was 1/2 a player. An all-star defender & a bust scorer. That in no way comes close to a 3 star combo like the Heat have or the Lakers would have with Kobe, Gasol, & Nash.

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 05:43 PM
Since a player's happiness index is what's most important to you, the owner's should ask the players to name 10-20 of their happiest places where the NBA plays. The rest of the teams get shutdown & 150-300 players get axed. Happy now?

GodsSon
11-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Chicago went to FA Rodman, who was still the best rebounding PF in the game, and Phil recruited him to come to Chicago. Rodman and Pippen talked, and he came. They had already had 2 of the best players in the league at the time and a host of good role players on a championship experienced team, yet nobody had a problem.

Rodman was a glorified role player who just happened to be the best ever at this role. Not to mention he joined an already stacked Bulls teams who had completed a 3 peat just a few years prior to his arrival. Not the same.


Now say the Lakers recruited a FA Steve Nash and he came over to a already good Laker squad today and they 3peated, everyone would be crying "Unfair! Unfair!" and people would be trying to change the rulesand crying about "superteams."

I think more people would be happy for Nash then anything. For years the guy has been on good teams that weren't good enough to get over the hump and has never *****ed about ANYTHING. Even now that PHX is declining at a rapid pace the guy still hasn't requested a trade and has said he plans on honouring his contract. If a 38 year old Nash with 2 years left in the gas tank wants to join the Lakers for a chance to FINALLY win a title, I don't think anyone would be upset.


Same thing, only difference is now the league is more watered down so fans get mad that these guys don't want to go to the Torronto's or Indianna's of the world. But if you're a perinneal respected contender in a great location you're always going to be the first option....

Like I said then, contract 20 teams and see how fast the league loses its credibility.

StanfordChamps
11-05-2011, 05:47 PM
players like Lebron signes their first extension. Cleveland had 7 years to build around Lebron and the best they came up with was Antawan Jamison and Shaq's corpse. Who knows if the Bulls didn't build around MJ like they did with a great coach, Pippen etc. he could've left.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 05:47 PM
Comparing the value of Rodman to the Bulls in their 2nd 3-peat to that of Nash joining the Lakers is a joke. Rodman was 1/2 a player. An all-star defender & a bust scorer. That in no way comes close to a 3 star combo like the Heat have or the Lakers would have with Kobe, Gasol, & Nash.


Um... I believe he was on the downside of his career and yet still the best rebounder/ defender in the league. And get your facts straight he was NEVER a scorer. But when you're playing on a team with Jordan and Pip doing the heavy lifting what else do you need? Ahhh thats right, rebounding and defense! BTW when they got Rodman they won 72 games. Coincidence?

Similar to Nash being on the downside of his career but still being one of the best passers in the game.....


Get it?

#Edit

Godson- Lol at Rodman being a "glorified roleplayer!" He was still snatching 15 boards a night but whatever you think supports your argument my man!

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 05:54 PM
You still don't get it. Rodman was never a star! He was never a complete player. He was a role player. Nash, Kobe, & Gasol are 3 stars. You can claim that Nash is on the downside of his career, but when he's on the floor with this kind of talent that won't be so evident. Needless to say, he should be much more productive as a Laker than he is as a Sun. Probably more efficient as well with the added open looks he'll get.

It's just a garbage comparison. The Bulls had 1.5 stars. I don't care if Pippen rates as a top 50 player of all time. Those of us who watched him play live saw first hand that he benefited greatly from the spacing MJ provided. If he had not played with MJ he has zero shot of reaching that status.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 06:00 PM
You still don't get it. Rodman was never a star! He was never a complete player. He was a role player. Nash, Kobe, & Gasol are 3 stars. You can claim that Nash is on the downside of his career, but when he's on the floor with this kind of talent that won't be so evident. Needless to say, he should be much more productive as a Laker than he is as a Sun. Probably more efficient as well with the added open looks he'll get.

It's just a garbage comparison. The Bulls had 1.5 stars. I don't care if Pippen rates as a top 50 player of all time. Those of us who watched him play live saw first hand that he benefited greatly from the spacing MJ provided. If he had not played with MJ he has zero shot of reaching that status.


WOW. 1.5 stars? Seriously? Ok man, fair enough. Me, Jordan, Pippen, Phil Jackson, and the Hall of Fame disagree with you.

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 06:10 PM
WOW. 1.5 stars? Seriously? Ok man, fair enough. Me, Jordan, Pippen, Phil Jackson, and the Hall of Fame disagree with you.

Should I refer you to Pippen's production when Jordan went to play baseball? Pippen was a good-great player. He never exhibited the consistency of a franchise player. He got to the HOF because that's what happens when good-great players are teamed up with legends. Once in the HOF it's hard not include him in top 50 when he's sporting 6 rings. Had Jordan never gone to play baseball it's probably 8.

Do you think Worthy gets to the HOF w/out Magic? I don't.

blahblahyoutoo
11-05-2011, 06:18 PM
Those 80s teams were stacked from top to bottom. Hall of famers all over the place

most of them acquired via draft.

magichatnumber9
11-05-2011, 06:30 PM
The league is watered down and there's too many teams. That's why players don't want to get stuck.

daleja424
11-05-2011, 06:33 PM
most of them acquired via draft.

who cares how they were acquired? Completely arbitrary distinction. I hate when people make that argument. Just because Magic got lucky and was drafted into a great organization doesn't mean he should have a chance to win and others shouldn't.

this is basically an argument that luck should be the deciding factor in playing for a good team. If that is the case... why even play games... let just have a coin flipping contest instead!

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 06:44 PM
players like Lebron signes their first extension. Cleveland had 7 years to build around Lebron and the best they came up with was Antawan Jamison and Shaq's corpse. Who knows if the Bulls didn't build around MJ like they did with a great coach, Pippen etc. he could've left.

Exactly now I don't like the way LeBron handled it but he put 7 yrs in and they surrounded him with retreads and role players. WTF. You don't surround a talent like that with a poor cast.

blahblahyoutoo
11-05-2011, 06:45 PM
who cares how they were acquired? Completely arbitrary distinction. I hate when people make that argument. Just because Magic got lucky and was drafted into a great organization doesn't mean he should have a chance to win and others shouldn't.

this is basically an argument that luck should be the deciding factor in playing for a good team. If that is the case... why even play games... let just have a coin flipping contest instead!

because a lot of people are upset over collusion.
it's one thing if it's luck. that's something you have no control over.

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 06:47 PM
Exactly now I don't like the way LeBron handled it but he put 7 yrs in and they surrounded him retreads and role players. WTF. You don't surround a talent like that with a poor cast.


Nah man, players are obligated to stay in small markets regardless of management decisions until they either retire or are no longer in their prime. Anything else is considered completely selfish.

daleja424
11-05-2011, 06:51 PM
because a lot of people are upset over collusion.
it's one thing if it's luck. that's something you have no control over.

have you ever played a sport? hell, have you ever watched a sport?

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 06:53 PM
Nah man, players are obligated to stay in small markets regardless of management decisions until they either retire or are no longer in their prime. Anything else is considered completely selfish.

Lol

I understand ppl want to go back to a time when fans identified players with certain teams but it's not like that anymore.

ChiSoxJuan
11-05-2011, 07:27 PM
Some of the blame has to go to Stern. During Showtime there were far fewer teams so the talent spread was better. Phenomenal play by Magic-Worthy-Kareem led that era. During MJ's era I believe there was expansion & the league was quick to strengthen D rules so the lack of offensive talent around the league was less apparent. This is why I will never look at MJ's #'s in comparisons to Lebron's or Kobe's. They are two entirely different era's although Kobe did play in the tail end of MJ's. After MJ, the league expanded again & decided a D minded league doesn't promote stars so they weakened D rules. That had the reverse effect. The tough & gritty teams that lacked good scorers started to get slaughtered. That's where we are today.

Maybe it's time to roll back the clock & toughen the D rules again. The 10 teams that lack scoring punch can try to smother the stars like the Pistons did in their era. With a renewed focus on D, star power would matter less.

It's obvious that NBA fans here are clueless to the NHL. In the NBA below .500 teams are fighting for the last spot. Ten teams can't even get to 30 wins. In the NHL well above .500 teams figh for the last spot down to the final game. Last yr in both conferences the final 4 spots were undecided going into the last week.

I would think an NBA fan would want to see that level of competition but some of you seem to be content with a 10 team superleague supported by 20 development teams. The only matchups then are when the 10 teams play one another. The rest are scrimages. Revenue sharing should cover the cost to operate the development teams. I guess that's your ideal view of the NBA.

blahblahyoutoo
11-05-2011, 07:33 PM
have you ever played a sport? hell, have you ever watched a sport?

what does that have to do with anything?

Tony_Starks
11-05-2011, 08:43 PM
Lol

I understand ppl want to go back to a time when fans identified players with certain teams but it's not like that anymore.


Foreal man sometimes I feel like writing a report on the impact of free agency and expansion in our modern league. Back in the days before early opt clauses and all that the star player basically got locked up for years. They retired with their teams. Then with it being less teams and the league being more condensed, naturally it was easier to fill out a roster with more talent to surround them. Add to that you had old school owners that truly loved the game, and took their job seriously. There was also more loyalty from the owners and in turn more loyalty being recipricated by the players.

Fast forward to today the majority of owners are billionaire casual basketball fans who basically look at their teams as a tax write-off and operate like fantasy teams. Since there is no loyalty from management players basically take whatever deal is best for them so come free agency its literally every man for themselves. Then with expansion the talent has been thinned out so teams with incompetent management are doomed to years of mediocrity unless they luck up on a great draft pick. In which case since manangement is still incompetent they are bound not to keep that player long term.

And thats where we are at. ALL that being said the game is still at peak global popularity so somebody has been doing something right. My guess is the guys that put the ball in the basket and the butts in the seats!

ink
11-05-2011, 08:54 PM
have you ever played a sport? hell, have you ever watched a sport?

What does that have to do with what he wrote? Just because you disagree with the guy it means he hasn't played a sport???

ink
11-05-2011, 08:55 PM
Lol

I understand ppl want to go back to a time when fans identified players with certain teams but it's not like that anymore.

No, it's a matter of going forward. When a system is so obviously dysfunctional, you go forward to a new one. The "nostalgia" rebuttal is lame.

ink
11-05-2011, 08:56 PM
because a lot of people are upset over collusion.

Huge factor, yes.

IDunknown
11-05-2011, 09:40 PM
Which is vastly different then All-Stars planning out their destinations years in advance.

Comparing the 90's Bulls or this decade's Pistons is doing a great disservice to the players and FO's of those respective teams. Could you have envisioned trading away a prime Grant Hill would land Detroit one of the best defensive players EVER in Ben Wallace who went UNDRAFTED?? Sorry to say, but those Bulls and Pistons teams had their nucleus formed organically through various routes, and it took time for them to gel and pick up steam before they dominated.

What players nowadays are doing is going behind closed doors and operating under the buddy system to try and form these "super teams" by forcing their teams hands to trade them to a destination that THEY want or walk away for nothing. That's just wrong.

Look at what Carmelo did with Denver this past year. He *****ed and whined to the media and openly said he wanted to go to NY and refused to accept a trade to NJ by rejecting the possibility of an extension. Not only did he hold his FO hostage, he held his teammates and fans hostage by being a cancer and a distraction leading up to his departure. Look what happened to Denver after he left.

Kudos to the Jazz FO for not allowing themselves to potentially be pigeon-holed by Deron and trading him while his value was still sky high in that rape of a deal with the Nets.

If everyone wants superteams then you might as well contract 20 teams in the league and let the last 10 duke it out for the ship every year. Don't think that it would cheapen the title of being crowned NBA champions?

Wow, no one has to sign a contract that they don't want to commit to.I think Denver management put their offer on the table too soon.There would have been no distraction otherwise.Everyone knew Melo wanted to be a Knick,but I don't remember him saying it Chris Paul did.This is how NBA and plantation comparisons happen.

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 09:44 PM
No, it's a matter of going forward. When a system is so obviously dysfunctional, you go forward to a new one. The "nostalgia" rebuttal is lame.

It's lame but everyone brings up how things were better in the past because the stars didn't hold their team hostage.

These teams have 7 sometimes 8 yrs to build a competitor. Lebron lifted that franchise to the top of the league and they rewarded him with guys past their prime and role players.

BigCityofDreams
11-05-2011, 09:52 PM
Foreal man sometimes I feel like writing a report on the impact of free agency and expansion in our modern league. Back in the days before early opt clauses and all that the star player basically got locked up for years. They retired with their teams. Then with it being less teams and the league being more condensed, naturally it was easier to fill out a roster with more talent to surround them. Add to that you had old school owners that truly loved the game, and took their job seriously. There was also more loyalty from the owners and in turn more loyalty being recipricated by the players.

Fast forward to today the majority of owners are billionaire casual basketball fans who basically look at their teams as a tax write-off and operate like fantasy teams. Since there is no loyalty from management players basically take whatever deal is best for them so come free agency its literally every man for themselves. Then with expansion the talent has been thinned out so teams with incompetent management are doomed to years of mediocrity unless they luck up on a great draft pick. In which case since manangement is still incompetent they are bound not to keep that player long term.

And thats where we are at. ALL that being said the game is still at peak global popularity so somebody has been doing something right. My guess is the guys that put the ball in the basket and the butts in the seats!

Excellent post very well said. I wouldn't mind reading that report on the impact of free agency and expansion in our modern league.

ink
11-06-2011, 12:06 AM
It's lame but everyone brings up how things were better in the past because the stars didn't hold their team hostage.

If character was such an out-of-date concept we wouldn't see it in Durant, Nash, Duncan, Hill, or any of the other stars who dedicate themselves to their teams.

Character will make a comeback in the NBA.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Explain the Carmelo situation to me then. Actually I'll break it down.

They had a dominant two-way (mainly defensive) front-court in Camby, Nene, K Mart and Birdman. Signed Andre Miller whom they traded for Allen Iverson, and later flipped for Chauncey Billups. The two latter names being multiple All-Stars in the league. They had one of the best 6th men in the league in JR Smith and an all-league defender/glue guy in Afflalo whose job was to shut down the opposing teams best player and make it easier on Anthony. Oh, and he also had one of the best coaches of the generation in George Karl who had finals experience and multiple DEEP playoff runs.

That Nuggets team was a WC powerhouse and was stacked, taking the Lakers to 6 games in the WCF just three years ago. They had all the supplementary pieces needed to surround a star player with, whom many claim Melo is, and yet they still couldn't win. Why? Maybe Carmelo just isn't as good as some people think. I bet if you put LeBron on that team instead of Glenn Robinson 2.0 they win at least 2 rings already.

Simply put, players nowadays just have this unearned sense of entitlement to them. Maybe deep down they suffer from insecurity and want to share the blame with another All-Star? Or maybe they realize they themselves are more hype than substance?

And that Nuggets team had their window close. Camby-KMart-Andersen all got older and Melo saw the writing on the wall. Why lock himself into another 3-5 years on a team with only one good frontcourt player (Nene who is also a FA and could leave for a better deal) and an aging PG (Billups)? It's all about getting that one other young stud "Pippen" to keep them there. Cavs failed with Larry Hughes, and then kept going the band-aid route with Mo Williams, Shaq, Jamison, etc.


Nah man, players are obligated to stay in small markets regardless of management decisions until they either retire or are no longer in their prime. Anything else is considered completely selfish.

Sarcasm well used.


If character was such an out-of-date concept we wouldn't see it in Durant, Nash, Duncan, Hill, or any of the other stars who dedicate themselves to their teams.

Character will make a comeback in the NBA.

Durant also has Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka. It's not a hard decision to stay in OKC with those teammates. Nash proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the nicest guy on the planet by carrying the **** roster he had to .500/

ink
11-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Durant also has Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka. It's not a hard decision to stay in OKC with those teammates. Nash proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the nicest guy on the planet by carrying the **** roster he had to .500/

Nash confirmed his own integrity too. He's working for one of the stingiest owners out there, a guy with a small market team that often had to choose cost-cutting over winning. But there's something in that for a player. If you asked Nash whether his career was a failure because he didn't have a ring I'm sure he would answer no. It's called maturity, character, intelligence, and the knowledge that he competed at HIS highest level every game he could. He is the polar opposite of most of the so-called superstars of the league. He's also an excellent businessman himself, with a growing chain of fitness clubs, many investments in green industries, and a producer of several award-winning documentaries, not to even mention the fun stuff he has done with other players like Baron Davis, and the TV series concept he developed for Shaq.

GodsSon
11-06-2011, 03:05 PM
And that Nuggets team had their window close. Camby-KMart-Andersen all got older and Melo saw the writing on the wall. Why lock himself into another 3-5 years on a team with only one good frontcourt player (Nene who is also a FA and could leave for a better deal) and an aging PG (Billups)? It's all about getting that one other young stud "Pippen" to keep them there. Cavs failed with Larry Hughes, and then kept going the band-aid route with Mo Williams, Shaq, Jamison, etc.

Or maybe Anthony is just not as good as everyone (especially Knicks fans) seem to think? Like I said, with the pieces that the Nuggets had in place, a true franchise player would have been able to get them over the hump.

There's a reason why they never passed the first round until Billups arrival.