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ink
11-01-2011, 11:45 PM
It's been obvious throughout the lockout that Hunter's hold on the union was tenuous at best. His performance has been weak, even though, in fairness, the players didn't have a leg to stand on in this one and he had to know it.


In the end, there are two courses for the union: Take the deal largely on the table or blow this up, decertify and lose the season fighting the NBA in the federal courts.

Only, it’s too late to decertify. Everyone wanted to do it back in July when the lockout started, and Hunter refused. His decision had nothing to do with legal strategy, nothing to do with leverage or getting the best possible deal for the players. It had everything to do with what it always does with Hunter: self-preservation. He worried about losing power, losing his job, and he sold everyone on a toothless National Labor Relations Board claim that’s going nowhere.

[Related: Derek Fisher denies trying to cut side deal with NBA]

This union is threatening to implode, the push and pull of people wanting to cut a deal and those willing to keep warring over the final percentage points. Within the NBPA, the frustration with Hunter is this: Hunter knows where the deal will be made, but he’s engaged in a smear campaign to frame Fisher as a sellout to the league. For Hunter, the end game is simple: Divide and conquer, and ultimately try to keep his own job beyond this labor agreement. This is a lousy deal for the players, and Hunter wants the blame everywhere else.

Yes, this has created doubts about Fisher, but it’s hurt Hunter far more. Once, he had the stars on his side, and that’s rapidly dissipating.

Hunter wants everyone to believe he’s the last holdout on going to a 50-50 split, that everyone else – especially Fisher – is dragging him there. Suddenly, he’s the tough guy standing alone. Suddenly, everyone else is caving and cutting side deals. Once it was the agents who wanted Hunter out. Now, there are star players lining up for a piece of him. They won’t move until there’s a deal done, but when they do, it will be swift, unruly and unpleasant.


For starters, it comes from an unseemly brew of hubris, ego and insecurity. On every level, this has been a disgrace, an embarrassment for the players, and it’s threatening to unravel the entire union. Most of all, the clock’s ticking on getting a deal done. November’s been slashed in the NBA regular season, and December’s on deck.

Stern is holding back the hawkish owners who want to pull the 50 percent offer off the table. The hardline owners are indeed pushing Stern to drop the league’s offer back under 50 percent as games are missed, but as one high-ranking official said: “The others realize that if you do that, you will lose a season. If the players will not take 50 now, they will not take less than 50 until they sit the whole year.”

If there’s one more round of game cancellations, owners are privately threatening what Stern publicly promised: a worse offer. That’s why a deal needs to get done sooner than later. From inside and outside, the union is teetering.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_billy_hunter_110111

Open speculation that Hunter is gone as soon as a deal is struck ... and that isn't necessarily imminent either. Could be a long, slow twist in the wind for the players' union.

One of the early signs that the union was out of control was the sudden appearance of KG, Kobe, and Pierce. There's no way that any negotiations should be conducted that way, with such a jaw-dropping display of disorganization. The "workers", whether they're superstars or not, never upstage the negotiating team the way they did. It was obvious then that Hunter had lost control.

SteBO
11-02-2011, 08:32 AM
I really don't know what to think at this point. I want to believe that fisher isnt caving into stern at this point but at the same time, what's being presented here is legit to me. Both sides here aren't really together at this point which says a lot.

29$JerZ
11-02-2011, 08:41 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if true but lets not pretend that the Owners side of this all is really only interested in strengthening basketball for a decade when its clear they want to fix all of their past mistakes and have the players ultimately pay for it.

mzgrizz
11-02-2011, 09:02 AM
If this is true then a meeting should be set up again fairly quickly. Maybe just maybe we'll get to see some NBA hoops by Christmas day. What a present that would be!

PlezPlayDKnicks
11-02-2011, 09:30 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if true but lets not pretend that the Owners side of this all is really only interested in strengthening basketball for a decade when its clear they want to fix all of their past mistakes and have the players ultimately pay for it.

This.....

likemystylez
11-02-2011, 09:37 AM
If this is true then a meeting should be set up again fairly quickly. Maybe just maybe we'll get to see some NBA hoops by Christmas day. What a present that would be!

Im not able to make that connection? if this is true, we might not see ball for 2 yrs cuz the union will have to think about decertifying.

and unfortunately if this were true ... quickly would have been like last weekend in terms of getting a meeting set up quickly.

beasted86
11-02-2011, 09:43 AM
Another Adrian W. article.

I'm pretty sure he aimlessly speculated that Stern was on his last legs on having a hold on the ownership group just a couple weeks ago. Google search it if you don't believe.

This is his whole M.O. His articles are purely opinion based even when he says he has sources.

thenetslegend
11-02-2011, 09:56 AM
**** this ****. The Heat should be playing the Knicks at MSG tonight. for all you guys that say "I don't care if they miss games, as long as there is the playoffs" What will you be watching tonight? Poker on ESPN? or one of the 10,000 crime drama shows?

regular season > playoffs

likemystylez
11-02-2011, 09:57 AM
regular season > playoffs

for nets fans :p

thenetslegend
11-02-2011, 10:24 AM
for nets fans :p

and warriors fans :eyebrow:


haha, just about to say that

hahhahahahaha

sad but true :facepalm:

Shmontaine
11-02-2011, 11:05 AM
Im not able to make that connection? if this is true, we might not see ball for 2 yrs cuz the union will have to think about decertifying.

and unfortunately if this were true ... quickly would have been like last weekend in terms of getting a meeting set up quickly.

IMO this means that the players are ready to deal, or at least the big boys and the majority... hunter needs to get out of their way, he's supposed to work for them... he's acting like these players don't know what's good for the players, and he knows best... if the players want to make a bad deal, guess what? it's their deal, let them make it... I think a deal gets done sooner than later, the players want to get a deal now it seems... I just want some bball...

likemystylez
11-02-2011, 11:27 AM
and warriors fans :eyebrow:





.... Oh yeah, The lockout has been gone on so long, that I forgot the warriors suck in real life. I was going off my nba 2k12 season... which is the nba for me these days.....

Man, I wanna get back to the real nba season so I can continue blaming the refs and other conspiracies for the warriors losses.

rooting for a loser really does make a fan appreciate the wins though.... LOl I almost feel like I have to will them through crunch time with my mind control sometimes :D

likemystylez
11-02-2011, 11:30 AM
IMO this means that the players are ready to deal, or at least the big boys and the majority... hunter needs to get out of their way, he's supposed to work for them... he's acting like these players don't know what's good for the players, and he knows best... if the players want to make a bad deal, guess what? it's their deal, let them make it... I think a deal gets done sooner than later, the players want to get a deal now it seems... I just want some bball...

I think the players are ready to accept a deal, and I would wish that they would send billy hunter into the next session with that in mind. Try and get the owners to move one last time and if it doesnt work... just take the deal and lets get out there and play ball. I just dont know if hunter will do it, and I dont know how they can force him too other than decertifying which will create a huge mess.

BTW- if they decertify, can they get out there on the court and have the lawyers do the lawsuite stuff on the side?

If there was any reason to believe holding out would make things better for the players- then I would go for it... but the owners wouldnt mind sitting out the next 10 yrs if they need too.

CousinsEvansDUO
11-02-2011, 11:40 AM
I wish Fisher could just give up and end this damn lockout. Us kings fans deserve to enjoy every last bit of the kings were only getting 1 more season of them and its so unfair. Again the lakers screw the kings. Even when its not intentional.

Oefarmy2005
11-02-2011, 11:49 AM
The players are screwed either way, and the biggest mistake the league made was paying the players way too much under the last labor agreement - hence they are taking it back. The NBPA should just take the 50/50 deal and start making some money. Obviously, per person considering the income, the players are loosing way more than the owners when games are not played. And even if the decertify and take this to the federal courts, they have almost no chance of winning this thing.

beasted86
11-02-2011, 12:11 PM
The players are screwed either way, and the biggest mistake the league made was paying the players way too much under the last labor agreement - hence they are taking it back. The NBPA should just take the 50/50 deal and start making some money. Obviously, per person considering the income, the players are loosing way more than the owners when games are not played. And even if the decertify and take this to the federal courts, they have almost no chance of winning this thing.
How are players losing more money per person? You need to do some research on how much owners are losing right now, and thats before they even start paying back TV money they got in advance.

Thats the exact reason Stern says owners offers might harden or get worse because they are having massive losses.

ink
11-02-2011, 12:29 PM
How are players losing more money per person? You need to do some research on how much owners are losing right now, and thats before they even start paying back TV money they got in advance.

Thats the exact reason Stern says owners offers might harden or get worse because they are having massive losses.

There's a tendency in your posts to insist that you have the facts while stating speculation. Regarding your earlier post about the source, the story that is out there is clearly about the union in turmoil. It's not just Adrian W. and it's pretty evident that Hunter botched this thing from the start. Strategically the time to decertify was in July but that could have cost Hunter his job so he insisted on not taking that course of action then. Now it's too late. Of course he had little to work with since the last two CBAs caused so many of the problems the other side is trying to fix now. Seriously the fairest way to look at this is that this is a moment in NBA history where the players had their way with two previous CBAs, obtained a lot of concessions and advantages that ended up being detrimental to the league (regardless of fault or blame, which is unimportant at this point), and now the owners are determined to win some ground back. The players were in a defensive position all along and because of botched strategy they have only given up that ground. They fended off talk of a hard cap but lost by attrition on all other points. Many players seem to want to end this but Hunter appears to be stubborn, wanting a victory of sorts to preserve his job, which must be tenuous at best. You can see that he is grasping at straws just listening to his interviews, which are inarticulate at best. The poor guy just doesn't have much to work with as this labour negotiation period has always been about restoring some workability and fairness to a CBA that got out of control. And unlike most union situations he can't put forward the idea that his members are hard done by. They're not. So he has nothing to GAIN ground with and is only tasked with not LOSING GROUND. That's an impossible position to be in so naturally he's going to come out looking bad.

beasted86
11-02-2011, 01:43 PM
There's a tendency in your posts to insist that you have the facts while stating speculation. Regarding your earlier post about the source, the story that is out there is clearly about the union in turmoil. It's not just Adrian W. and it's pretty evident that Hunter botched this thing from the start. Strategically the time to decertify was in July but that could have cost Hunter his job so he insisted on not taking that course of action then. Now it's too late. Of course he had little to work with since the last two CBAs caused so many of the problems the other side is trying to fix now. Seriously the fairest way to look at this is that this is a moment in NBA history where the players had their way with two previous CBAs, obtained a lot of concessions and advantages that ended up being detrimental to the league (regardless of fault or blame, which is unimportant at this point), and now the owners are determined to win some ground back. The players were in a defensive position all along and because of botched strategy they have only given up that ground. They fended off talk of a hard cap but lost by attrition on all other points. Many players seem to want to end this but Hunter appears to be stubborn, wanting a victory of sorts to preserve his job, which must be tenuous at best. You can see that he is grasping at straws just listening to his interviews, which are inarticulate at best. The poor guy just doesn't have much to work with as this labour negotiation period has always been about restoring some workability and fairness to a CBA that got out of control. And unlike most union situations he can't put forward the idea that his members are hard done by. They're not. So he has nothing to GAIN ground with and is only tasked with not LOSING GROUND. That's an impossible position to be in so naturally he's going to come out looking bad.

More times than not I am the one providing quotes and links to data while others are the ones posting their own opinion, and even when I provide info from a reliable source its written off and overridden by opinion if it goes against the point someone else was trying to make. Lately I've picked up on this and decided to let other people do the work if they want to be informed, or remain ignorant if they so wish.

There are indeed many articles by Adrian and others with the same spin on Stern losing grip and this being one CBA negotiation too many, as well as discord among certain owners that were ready to make a deal weeks ago... as well as to my earlier point that owners are in truth losing a lot more.

The data and facts are out there to support anything I present as fact... If something is my opinion only I usually present it as such.

Oefarmy2005
11-02-2011, 01:45 PM
How are players losing more money per person? You need to do some research on how much owners are losing right now, and thats before they even start paying back TV money they got in advance.

Thats the exact reason Stern says owners offers might harden or get worse because they are having massive losses.

I apologize if it was not clear, but I meant the players loose more money compared to their overall net worth. Kobe loosing 25 million compared to a networth of say 300 million is much more than an owner loosing 100 million on a net worth of 3 billion: something like 9% vs 3%.

beasted86
11-02-2011, 03:18 PM
I apologize if it was not clear, but I meant the players loose more money compared to their overall net worth. Kobe loosing 25 million compared to a networth of say 300 million is much more than an owner loosing 100 million on a net worth of 3 billion: something like 9% vs 3%.

In that regard you are probably right.

Shmontaine
11-02-2011, 03:25 PM
I apologize if it was not clear, but I meant the players loose more money compared to their overall net worth. Kobe loosing 25 million compared to a networth of say 300 million is much more than an owner loosing 100 million on a net worth of 3 billion: something like 9% vs 3%.

yep, and add to it the career of a player is much much shorter than the 'career' of an owner... even if the entire season is lost (which it won't) the owners have the means and the tenure to gain financially in the long run... this is why i didn't understand why the players wouldn't agree sooner... in a battle over money: billionaires will always trump millionaires...

Ill21
11-02-2011, 03:32 PM
I feel like Billy Hunter is trying to be a hero and get the players 52% but a hero is only and sandwich so he needs to stop. Get on the same page as Fisher, offer 51% and get a ****ing deal done.

sixer04fan
11-02-2011, 03:37 PM
It's pretty simple, the longer the negotiations have been going on, the more the players have been giving up. The longer this continues to go on, the more the players will continue to lose.

They players can hold out as long as they want, but they aren't going to get back anything that they have already lost in the negotiations. They need to accept whatever deal the owners are willing to give at this point before it gets any worse.

blahblahyoutoo
11-02-2011, 03:37 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if true but lets not pretend that the Owners side of this all is really only interested in strengthening basketball for a decade when its clear they want to fix all of their past mistakes and have the players ultimately pay for it.

and they've benefited a great deal in the past decade.
feast and famine.

blahblahyoutoo
11-02-2011, 03:39 PM
I wish Fisher could just give up and end this damn lockout. Us kings fans deserve to enjoy every last bit of the kings were only getting 1 more season of them and its so unfair. Again the lakers screw the kings. Even when its not intentional.

how is fisher giving up goign to end the lockout?
according to sources, fisher wants 50/50 and hunter wants 53/47 or whatever.
the owners aren't settling for anything but 50/50.

beasted86
11-02-2011, 03:58 PM
how is fisher giving up goign to end the lockout?
according to sources, fisher wants 50/50 and hunter wants 53/47 or whatever.
the owners aren't settling for anything but 50/50.

Keep up to date. Fisher already refuted the report and has gone as far as to threaten suit against Jason Whitlock.

We both know he won't, but somebody needs to so we can end this "sources" b.s. that every sports journalist is adopting nowadays. Anyone can seemingly say whatever they want under that disclaimer.

ink
11-02-2011, 04:07 PM
More times than not I am the one providing quotes and links to data while others are the ones posting their own opinion, and even when I provide info from a reliable source its written off and overridden by opinion if it goes against the point someone else was trying to make. Lately I've picked up on this and decided to let other people do the work if they want to be informed, or remain ignorant if they so wish.

There are indeed many articles by Adrian and others with the same spin on Stern losing grip and this being one CBA negotiation too many, as well as discord among certain owners that were ready to make a deal weeks ago... as well as to my earlier point that owners are in truth losing a lot more.

The data and facts are out there to support anything I present as fact... If something is my opinion only I usually present it as such.

These are negotiations. Treat anything you read not as fact but as speculation. None of us is privy to the actual discussions. What is very apparent though is that the players have lost on every front and didn't stand a chance from the start, because of strategy, weak leadership, and the fact that this CBA was always going to be about redressing a dysfunctional CBA. That was common knowledge two years ago and this is how it has played out. The only surprise is that the players' position was put forward in such a weak and disorganized way.

As for the links you're posting, you seem to be unable to see the forest for the trees, almost always choosing the micro perspective of the information the players side wanted to get out. NEITHER side is presenting anything that is really trustworthy. Constantly providing one side's "facts" is just getting played by that side. You are getting played by the union side. Others are trying to get people to understand that there is no good guy/bad guy dynamic going on. There is no good guy. The owners aren't "right" and the players aren't "right".

The owners and players are in their own private war that seeks sympathy from the public. Don't get sucked in all the time by what you're misapprehending as "facts", especially when they're from one side. The players and the owners are both to blame for this negotiation and for the past CBAs. It's a struggle for power between them. I still can't understand how you can't see that you're being used by them. :shrug:

ink
11-02-2011, 04:13 PM
Keep up to date. Fisher already refuted the report and has gone as far as to threaten suit against Jason Whitlock.

We both know he won't, but somebody needs to so we can end this "sources" b.s. that every sports journalist is adopting nowadays. Anyone can seemingly say whatever they want under that disclaimer.

Here's a good example of getting played. Just because Fisher makes a claim doesn't make it a fact. Yet you automatically take a side and take Fisher's POV as the "truth" or a "fact". It's the message he needs to get out, which should not be confused as a fact. No one actually knows what is true, so don't take what ONE SIDE, the side you like, says as a fact. I don't believe much I hear the owners say unless it directly supports the idea of strengthening the NBA. I'm happy to experience short term pain for long term gain. We can see that the players don't really have a vision at all except to protect their gains and their salary levels. That is not going to help anyone except those INDIVIDUAL players.

ink
11-02-2011, 04:18 PM
It's pretty simple, the longer the negotiations have been going on, the more the players have been giving up. The longer this continues to go on, the more the players will continue to lose.

They players can hold out as long as they want, but they aren't going to get back anything that they have already lost in the negotiations. They need to accept whatever deal the owners are willing to give at this point before it gets any worse.

Which is why there is no real rush to get back to work. Since the players blocked discussion of a hard cap, the only thing that can happen from here on is discussion of BRI. And day by day the players stand to get less and less. It's in their interest to settle, and ironically, in the owners interest not to settle, since they will be saving in the long term. I say ironic because the players strategy has been to make it about money only, and in the end making it about money has cost them everything, including a lot of public sympathy. Very poor thinking and strategizing, but again, they had no real bargaining position to begin with and were only on the defensive the entire time. As we all know, trying not to lose is not a way to win anything.

blahblahyoutoo
11-02-2011, 05:29 PM
Keep up to date. Fisher already refuted the report and has gone as far as to threaten suit against Jason Whitlock.

We both know he won't, but somebody needs to so we can end this "sources" b.s. that every sports journalist is adopting nowadays. Anyone can seemingly say whatever they want under that disclaimer.

makes my point even stronger then.
what are fisher's demands that he can "give up" in order to end the lockout, going by what the other poster states?

i thought the owners were the ones locking the players out, not the players striking. so the power is in the owners' hands.

smith&wesson
11-02-2011, 05:54 PM
this article really makes it sound like the players are willing to take the deal and bill hunter is standing alone at this point. so why not vote him out ? other wise the deal will be taken off the table by the owners.

can hunter be voted out by the players ?