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zizo
10-27-2011, 02:11 PM
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Top 50: Kobe Bryant, no. 3

The definitive ranking of the NBA’s best players.


by Ryan Jones / @thefarmerjones


http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Kobe50Art.jpg



by Ryan Jones / @thefarmerjones


I don’t want to overplay the significance of this, but: nobody wanted Kobe.

This list, which so many of you have received so good naturedly, was submitted last month to the vast pool of SLAMonline freelancers as a first-come, first-served opportunity. The top two (I don’t want to give anything away, but you’ll notice the name “Joey Graham” has been conspicuously absent thus far…) were claimed before the list was sent out, leaving players 3-50.


Kobe Bryant was No. 3. He remains so.

I wasn’t sure I was going to write one of these this year, but as the list was sent out, and then sent out again, I couldn’t help noticing that, while some of my fellow scribblers were apparently clamoring for the chance to weigh in on LaMarcus Aldridge and Al Jefferson, Mr. Bean remained unclaimed.

At first, this shocked me. But then I realized it made a perfect sort of sense.

We’re kind of over Kobe, aren’t we?

I probably should’ve said this sooner, but what you’re reading is not the sort of Bean-bashing I’ve done in the past. (Which, let’s be honest, is a shame. I think we all had a lot of fun back then, didn’t we?) When I say we’re “over” Kobe, I don’t mean we don’t like him (which is irrelevant, even for me, at this point), or that we think he sucks, which, duh. Kobe’s still really good at basketball.

It just seems like maybe Kobe is past the point of being worth arguing about.

OK, so maybe not for all of us. Ha, ha, ha. No. Some of you us will argue about anything, I know. But after a season in which he put up his lowest scoring average in seven years (granted, he was sort of banged up all season), and after a Playoff run that ended in a second-round sweep (granted, to the eventual champs), it seems like our collective analytical energy is directed increasingly toward LeBron (still…) and Kevin and Derrick and Dwyane and Dwight. Sure, we’ll still make our case for where Kobe Bryant, Elder Statesman™, belongs among these younger lads who lack his creaky knees and fistful of rings. But it doesn’t seem to matter, not nearly so much as it did.

There’s a reason for this. A good one. It’s about legacies, and how they become set regardless of whether we’re consciously aware of it at the time.

Kobe Bryant’s legacy is set.

Kobe Bryant might play one more season, or three, or five (which would make 20—wow), but it doesn’t much matter. However much longer he goes, his career totals will go up and his averages will taper off accordingly, and it won’t really matter. He might win another title or two, which would be impressive without Phil Jackson, but will also almost certainly require the help of a player like Dwight Howard (you know, as a random example), and so that won’t matter, either.

It won’t matter because we all know where Kobe stands.

Better than Jordan? No. Never. But close, in many ways as close as anyone’s gotten, and maybe as close as anyone will get.

Better than LeBron? No, not anymore—but yes, certainly, where legacies are concerned. In that, it might never be particularly close.

We can argue the rest—Kobe vs Wade in their prime, Kobe vs Durant, Kobe vs Rose, Kobe vs Barnes or Shabazz or whoever comes next—and we will, because that’s what we do. We can make the case that some nights, during this theoretical ‘11-12 season that may never exist, Kobe Bryant still will be the best basketball player alive. And we’ll be right. Because, some nights, he still will be.

Other nights he’ll show his age, or his impatience, or his belligerence, and those of us you who are so inclined will smile at his eternal, incurable flaws and comfort yourselves with the knowledge that his time is near.

And it doesn’t matter. Because his career, in as much as it matters as a discussion piece for basketball fans, is pretty much over.

But for now—right now, today—a list composed of the opinions of a bunch of well-informed basketball writer/fans says Kobe Bryant is the third-best player in the NBA. (We had him second last year, and second the year before that.) I didn’t vote on this list, but I’m fine with his ranking. I’d probably be fine if we had him fourth, or sixth, or maybe even second. I’m not all that into lists. I don’t think it’s a big deal either way.

Hey, do you guys have any thoughts on this?



http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kobe_bryant_chart.jpg


=================================

Top 50: Kevin Durant, no. 2

The definitive ranking of the NBA’s best players.

by Ryne Nelson / @slaman10

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Durant50Art.jpg


Who honestly remembers watching Kevin Durant in a Sonics uniform?

It was a time before owners were supervillains (with the exception of Seattle public enemy, Clay Bennett). Light years before superteams became en vogue. Eons before fans cared about international pro leagues.

In actuality, it was just over three years ago.

Outside of Seattle area, very few people watched a lot of the ’07-08 Sonics. Non-Sonics fans who watched every game? Well, that was probably only me.

See, when Durant’s career is over—when he’s inducted into the HOF—I’ll be rocking a Sonics trey-five jersey. Not necessarily because the threads will be exclusive, but because it was during his rookie season that I discovered what type of player Kevin Durant was.

I didn’t expect KD to become the second-best player in the L, but from jump, it was clear that KD would soon become a face. But with an unpopular move to OKC on the horizon, the NBA’s marketing train never stopped in Seattle. With a terrible record and a 19-year-old Durant as its centerpiece, the Sonics were mired both at the bottom of the standings and in people’s minds.

That’s why most people struggle to remember Kevin Durant’s first pro season. But I remember a few things…

Like when KD hit the game-winner against the Mavs in the Sonics’ final game in Seattle. Or when he nailed his second buzzer-beating three to prolong the game in Seattle against the Nuggets (Durant finished with 37 points, 9 dimes and 8 boards). Or when this filthy move made Shane “No Stats All-Star” Battier look, well… merely mortal.

Of course, those were just highlights. Durant’s jumper was erratic, and he crashed the glass more like a 6-0 PG than a lanky 6-9 forward. He lost a total of 62 games for the Sonics (even with Earl Watson, Chris Wilcox and rookie Jeff Green as supporting cast). But he showed a passion for the game unrivaled by anyone save the League’s megastars.

Kevin Durant spent his rookie campaign in NBA purgatory, trying to be the savior for a city that couldn’t be saved. His squad routinely got trampled in hollow arenas. It was an existence that could easily have taken the fire out of any player.

But Durant actually got better as his rookie season progressed. By April, Durant was putting up lines like 42 points, 13 rebounds and 5 assists. Outside of Kobe Bryant and Monta Ellis, the still-green Kevin Durant was the most dynamic player on the West Coast.

He copped the ROY trophy that season, but people still didn’t pay Durant much attention until the Thunder began winning during his third season, KD’s second in Oklahoma City. And now, there’s really nothing left to be said.

He’s been to the Western Conference Finals. He’s twice led the L in scoring. Twice selected to the All-NBA First-Team. Won a gold medal at the World Championships in Turkey. And today, Kevin Durant firmly holds the title of first runner-up in the SLAMonline Top 50. He probably won’t drop on this list. Not for a while.

In a summer marked by greed, Durant’s only been giving—giving back to the game he loves. Dedication and passion light the path to basketball’s hallowed Hall. It’s refreshing to see Durant hasn’t veered even slightly.

No matter where he goes, what jersey he wears, Kevin Durant just plays basketball. KD passed his first test when he thrived through the toughest season in his career as a 19-year-old rookie.

That’s how I learned that no obstacle can stand in the way of Kevin Durant. And that’s why I’ll be rocking KD’s Sonics jersey when the Hall comes calling.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kevin_durant_chart.jpg


http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/nba/slamonline-top-50/

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:24 PM
Should have put 2 seperate threads.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:25 PM
I don't understand how you rank someone #1 in the league when he gets outscored in a series against a non star that comes off the bench when he himself is in his prime.

ugafan
10-27-2011, 02:26 PM
I don't understand how you rank someone #1 in the league when he gets outscored in a series against a non star that comes off the bench when he himself is in his prime.

I don't know how you evaluate players based on such ridiculously small samples. He has one bad series so let's disregard everything else he's done. Great logic. Awesome.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:27 PM
1 series defines a player?

I guess if everyone here has to start a team ,you're the only one taking Terry over James.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 02:28 PM
ESPN's list, 1-9, was about as spot on as you get. SLAM continues its streak of sucking. Congrats on the consistency.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:30 PM
I don't know how you evaluate players based on such ridiculously small samples. He has one bad series so let's disregard everything else he's done. Great logic. Awesome.

It's the damn NBA Finals. It matters more than any other series. And getting outplayed by some dude who never even made an allstar team shows if you really are the best in the league or not.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:31 PM
1 series defines a player?

I guess if everyone here has to start a team ,you're the only one taking Terry over James.

Did I ever say Terry was better? I said how could you be #1 getting outplayed by someone coming off the bench?

juno10
10-27-2011, 02:34 PM
Did I ever say Terry was better? I said how could you be #1 getting outplayed by someone coming off the bench?

too bad he didn't outplay but only slightly outscored him.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:34 PM
It's the damn NBA Finals. It matters more than any other series. And getting outplayed by some dude who never even made an allstar team shows if you really are the best in the league or not.

So that overshadow's his another amazing season?

I guess Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee aren't as good as Chris Carpenter.

I guess if the Rangers win, Napoli is better than Pujols.

I guess Eli Manning is better than Tom Brady.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:35 PM
Did I ever say Terry was better? I said how could you be #1 getting outplayed by someone coming off the bench?

It's perception.

Terry seemed better. But James barely got outplayed by him.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:39 PM
So that overshadow's his another amazing season?

I guess Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee aren't as good as Chris Carpenter.

I guess if the Rangers win, Napoli is better than Pujols.

I guess Eli Manning is better than Tom Brady.

Tom Brady has won various superbowls and MVP's.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:40 PM
It's perception.

Terry seemed better. But James barely got outplayed by him.

Barely doesn't matter, you don't get outscored by someone coming off the bench in a series when you are 5th all time in playoff ppg.

juno10
10-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Barely doesn't matter, you don't get outscored by someone coming off the bench in a series when you are 5th all time in playoff ppg.

says who you?, he struggled, wade struggled just as much in the previous series but with your lebron agenda you don't hear a peep out of you.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Tom Brady has won various superbowls and MVP's.

Lebron doesn't have the championships but he does have the MVP's like Brady. He's not even removed from those MVP years too. I even argue Lebron's gotten better.

1 playoff series takes all that greatness away? Granted, he got outscored. Doesn't take much away from him as a player IMO.

Swashcuff
10-27-2011, 02:45 PM
Tom Brady has won various superbowls and MVP's.

Interesting isn't it that you ignored the other examples. Best player is best player one series no matter how big it is does not define a player who has dominated the league on both ends of the floor for 82+ games.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:56 PM
Interesting isn't it that you ignored the other examples. Best player is best player one series no matter how big it is does not define a player who has dominated the league on both ends of the floor for 82+ games.

I haven't followed baseball much over the past few years, so I can't comment on those cases.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 02:57 PM
JB...you are wrong.

Plain and simple... Lebron has been the best player in the league now for several years... and one series does not overshadow that.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 02:57 PM
Lebron doesn't have the championships but he does have the MVP's like Brady. He's not even removed from those MVP years too. I even argue Lebron's gotten better.

1 playoff series takes all that greatness away? Granted, he got outscored. Doesn't take much away from him as a player IMO.

I didn't say he wasn't great or it took away his greatness, I said how could he be the #1 player in the league when he got outscored by a bench player in the NBA Finals. It said nothing that he wasn't a top notch player or one of the best in the league.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-27-2011, 02:59 PM
I didn't say he wasn't great or it took away his greatness, I said how could he be the #1 player in the league when he got outscored by a bench player in the NBA Finals. It said nothing that he wasn't a top notch player or one of the best in the league.

He's still the best player in the league.

Regardless of him beuing outplayed in the finals, he's still best.

So he gets the #1.

:shrug:

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:00 PM
says who you?, he struggled, wade struggled just as much in the previous series but with your lebron agenda you don't hear a peep out of you.

Provide me an example of an all time great player who got outscored by someone coming off the bench in the finals and who was a top 20 player all time in season or playoff scoring ppg wise?

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:01 PM
He's still the best player in the league.

Regardless of him beuing outplayed in the finals, he's still best.

So he gets the #1.

:shrug:

Best player in the league doesn't get outscored by someone coming off the bench for an entire series.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 03:01 PM
even given his bad series...he still averaged 24 points, 8.4 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.7 steals, and 1.2 blocks per game in the playoffs.

Good luck finding many better stat lines than that.

Not to mention...how quickly forget how clutch Lebron was in the previous two series...

Baller1
10-27-2011, 03:02 PM
My opinion doesn't really matter since it'll be disregarded as I'm a Thunder fan. But I personally have no problems with Durant at two. He's number 4 on my list, but him being at two is not a problem in my eyes.

He's proved he can win, he's proved he can be a leader, and he's proved he can be the face of a franchise.

Of course I'm in the minority and my opinion will be written off, but he has the chance to lead the league in scoring for the next 10 years. I like seeing him get some recognition as the second best player in the league, whether it's accurate or not.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 03:04 PM
JB...just stop. You realize that there is more to the game of basketball than scoring too right?

Go back and look at magic Johnson's scoring averages in the playoffs... and then come back here educated.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 03:05 PM
My opinion doesn't really matter since it'll be disregarded as I'm a Thunder fan. But I personally have no problems with Durant at two. He's number 4 on my list, but him being at two is not a problem in my eyes.

He's proved he can win, he's proved he can be a leader, and he's proved he can be the face of a franchise.

Of course I'm in the minority and my opinion will be written off, but he has the chance to lead the league in scoring for the next 10 years. I like seeing him get some recognition as the second best player in the league, whether it's accurate or not.

Durant is a monster...but he falls into the same trap that Dirk falls into... unbelievable scorer but nothing special in most of the other aspects of the game (at least so far).

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:06 PM
even given his bad series...he still averaged 24 points, 8.4 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.7 steals, and 1.2 blocks per game in the playoffs.

Good luck finding many better stat lines than that.

Not to mention...how quickly forget how clutch Lebron was in the previous two series...

Lebron
17.8 PPG

Jason Terry
18.0 PPG


Lebron career in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

5. LeBron James 28.02

The guy was held 10 ppg below his playoff career numbers and lost with HCA.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:07 PM
JB...just stop. You realize that there is more to the game of basketball than scoring too right?

Go back and look at magic Johnson's scoring averages in the playoffs... and then come back here educated.

And did he get outscored by someone coming off the bench for a series?

juno10
10-27-2011, 03:09 PM
Lebron
17.8 PPG

Jason Terry
18.0 PPG


Lebron career in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

5. LeBron James 28.02

The guy was held 10 ppg below his playoff career numbers and lost with HCA.

so if terry scored 12ppg instead and lebron still played horribly in the finals you would think more highly of him. would you think more highly of lebron if he scored .3 more points lmao.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 03:09 PM
And did he get outscored by someone coming off the bench for a series?

What the heck does that have to do with ANYTHING? Jason Terry is a great scorer and an unbelievable streak shooter. Did Magic play against Jason Terry?

You are getting hung up on the most rediculous things man. Terry is there second best scorer... and he playes starter minutes...who cares that he comes off the bench!?!

tredigs
10-27-2011, 03:10 PM
Cue: Same old ****.

He's the best. Shut up and deal with it. Who else has that combination of passing/playmaking ability, scoring ability, and absolutely stellar defense night after night. Not to mention he can pull you down 10-15 rebounds any given night if need be.

Underperform in the finals? Definitely. But without him they're not sniffing those finals. Absolute best (see: most consistently great) player on that team throughout the year and into the playoffs. Wade was great - not great enough - in the finals. Dirk can't shut down D. Rose on one play and step into the paint and board over Joakim Noah on the next. Durant can't either.

Whether you/me/anyone else like it or not, given the totality of the season picture, that guy is the best player in the league. This season, for the past few seasons, and most likely next season. I have a strong feeling his lackluster finals performances (for greats standards) will become a thing of the past in the near future also. But that'll be interesting to track.

Since this is a list best on predictions of the next season - Durant at 2 is fine. But he was probably not 2nd best this year.

daleja424
10-27-2011, 03:10 PM
Lebron
17.8 PPG

Jason Terry
18.0 PPG


Lebron career in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

5. LeBron James 28.02

The guy was held 10 ppg below his playoff career numbers and lost with HCA.

For the 4th time... there is A LOT more to the game of basketball than scoring. How do the rebounding and assists numbers stack up JB?

juno10
10-27-2011, 03:11 PM
terry also outscored pau in the second round i guess pau should bury his head.

Baller1
10-27-2011, 03:12 PM
Durant is a monster...but he falls into the same trap that Dirk falls into... unbelievable scorer but nothing special in most of the other aspects of the game (at least so far).

True, I can't deny that. I just think after another season or two, Durant could very well be considered a top 2 player. He's still only 22 with the work ethic of a bench player trying to earn a minute of playing time.

Of course I'm optimistic, but I think Durant could very well average 30, 8, 5 very soon.

Slimsim
10-27-2011, 03:28 PM
SUprise Durant not number 1 he's the next best thing to Jordan

Swashcuff
10-27-2011, 03:28 PM
JordansBulls tell me something. Without LeBron James how far do the Heat go?

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:30 PM
terry also outscored pau in the second round i guess pau should bury his head.

Pau Gasol isn't being mentioned as the best player in the league here.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:31 PM
JordansBulls tell me something. Without LeBron James how far do the Heat go?

Dwyane Wade gave the Miami Heat it's only title in franchise history.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:34 PM
For the 4th time... there is A LOT more to the game of basketball than scoring. How do the rebounding and assists numbers stack up JB?

Again you are missing the point. I said how are you best player in the league if a guy who comes off the bench is outscoring you for an entire series in the NBA FINALS

Swashcuff
10-27-2011, 03:37 PM
Dwyane Wade gave the Miami Heat it's only title in franchise history.

What in heaven's name does that have to do with who's the best player in the NBA RIGHT NOW?

Swashcuff
10-27-2011, 03:39 PM
Again you are missing the point. I said how are you best player in the league if a guy who comes off the bench is outscoring you for an entire series in the NBA FINALS

So what if Terry scored .1 less points than LeBron would that make LeBron the best player in the league?

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:42 PM
So what if Terry scored .1 less points than LeBron would that make LeBron the best player in the league?

No, he lost with HCA and he wasn't better than his teammate a guy who brought a franchise a title.

juno10
10-27-2011, 03:50 PM
What in heaven's name does that have to do with who's the best player in the NBA RIGHT NOW?

he's very robotic with his way of thinking.

naps
10-27-2011, 03:50 PM
I don't understand how you rank someone #1 in the league when he gets outscored in a series against a non star that comes off the bench when he himself is in his prime.

In that case LeBron shouldn't sniff top 20. Right?

Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th shooting in a conference finals?

juno10
10-27-2011, 03:56 PM
In that case LeBron shouldn't sniff top 20. Right?

Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th shooting in a conference finals?

in before rose didn't have any other all star on his team despite boozer being allstar calibre and having alot of depth on his team.

naps
10-27-2011, 04:03 PM
What the heck does that have to do with ANYTHING? Jason Terry is a great scorer and an unbelievable streak shooter. Did Magic play against Jason Terry?

You are getting hung up on the most rediculous things man. Terry is there second best scorer... and he playes starter minutes...who cares that he comes off the bench!?!

Good luck if you really think he's gonna listen to what you are saying. He's been quoting people on this and not paying attention to what they are saying for months now. He'll come up with SRS, HCA, all-stars etc, if he hasn't already done that (I didn't read all the posts yet).

naps
10-27-2011, 04:09 PM
in before rose didn't have any other all star on his team despite boozer being allstar calibre and having alot of depth on his team.

Hahaha...JB becomes funny with his robotic responses on this topic.

Lakerfan In NY
10-27-2011, 04:18 PM
JB I'm with you. LBJ is "the best player in the world" who never shows up for big games. Let's stop this one bad series talk causes it's more like one bad series every yr. ESPN crowned LBJ the best player in the world...He's the best regualr season player of all time.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
10-27-2011, 04:25 PM
:facepalm:Durant is so overated....

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 04:26 PM
He's the best regualr season player of all time.

No he is not, not even close.

Delrayhc
10-27-2011, 04:30 PM
I don't know how you evaluate players based on such ridiculously small samples. He has one bad series so let's disregard everything else he's done. Great logic. Awesome.

Jordansballs

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 04:30 PM
in before rose didn't have any other all star on his team despite boozer being allstar calibre and having alot of depth on his team.

Yet Lebron had the #2 and #4 guys in PER the season before on his team and got guys for free in Bibby and Big Z and Dampier as well.

juno10
10-27-2011, 04:45 PM
Yet Lebron had the #2 and #4 guys in PER the season before on his team and got guys for free in Bibby and Big Z and Dampier as well.

GREAT players i tell ya, i like dampiers and big z's finals stats

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000

naps
10-27-2011, 05:26 PM
Yet Lebron had the #2 and #4 guys in PER the season before on his team and got guys for free in Bibby and Big Z and Dampier as well.

You didn't answer my question. Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the conference finals?

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 05:28 PM
GREAT players i tell ya, i like dampiers and big z's finals stats

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000

No Wade (proven winner) and Bosh.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 05:29 PM
You didn't answer my question. Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the conference finals?

Top 5 yes, best no.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 06:18 PM
So its not Dirk? JB must me steaming mad

naps
10-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Top 5 yes, best no.

So a player can be in your top 5 with a 9.8% shooting in the 4th of the most important series of your career? lmao! Just because that player is Derrick Rose. You most likely would never say yes if that was someone else. Such double standards.

I remember telling you long time ago that you will see who everyone thinks is the best player despite the unprecedented hate. ESPN, SLAM, PSD, and others made lists and all the lists have flaws (may be ESPN has the least flaw) but one thing they all agreed upon is that LeBron James is the best on the planet. It's probably the time, you should move on as well.

justinnum1
10-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Durant over Wade LMFAO :facepalm:

dwadefan03
10-27-2011, 07:05 PM
Durant over Wade LMFAO :facepalm:

its ridiculous how underrated wade is and how overrated durant is

Ebbs
10-27-2011, 07:10 PM
The ESPN list looked like a bible comparatively.

The SLAM list is an absolute joke.

JNA17
10-27-2011, 07:18 PM
JordansBulls tell me something. Without LeBron James how far do the Heat go?

You mean if the Heat didn't sign lebron? Well let's see...

they use the money to sign solid role players on the team along with actually having a freaking bench. Bosh becomes a better player due to the fact he would be a 2nd option. Wade would have complete control of the ball facilitating and the Heat would pretty much end up with about 50 something wins and either get blown out at the finals, or lose a close series in the Eastern Conference finals. Or who knows, maybe win the finals since Lebron wouldn't be stinking it up there.

Just my opinion on how things would probably go down, but I know only as much as you in what if scenarios, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

mdm692
10-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Lebron is so hated yet so overrated lol its funny

mdm692
10-27-2011, 07:33 PM
You didn't answer my question. Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the conference finals?

first series the guy doesnt show up and hes the next lechoke james. . .

really :facepalm:. . .lebron has choked MULTIPLE TIMES he might be the best all around player but he is missing that fire determination and "clutch" that comes out in the best players when needed. look at kobe, dirk, wade

JLynn943
10-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Durant at #2? :puke:

Bruno
10-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Wade outperformed LBJ in the 2011 playoffs (21 total games).

LBJ: PER: 23.7, TS: .563, WS: 3.8, WS/48: 0.199
Wade: PER: 26.3, TS%: .570, WS: 3.7, WS/48: 0.216

Those are the numbers.

It's pretty clear who would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Wade outperformed LBJ in the 2011 playoffs (21 total games).

LBJ: PER: 23.7, TS: .563, WS: 3.8, WS/48: 0.199
Wade: PER: 26.3, TS%: .570, WS: 3.7, WS/48: 0.216

Those are the numbers.

It's pretty clear who would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.

LeBron counters your numbers with far better defense.

But yes, if LeBron would have simply been average for him in the finals, he takes dump on everyone else's numbers.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Wade outperformed LBJ in the 2011 playoffs (21 total games).

LBJ: PER: 23.7, TS: .563, WS: 3.8, WS/48: 0.199
Wade: PER: 26.3, TS%: .570, WS: 3.7, WS/48: 0.216

Those are the numbers.

It's pretty clear who would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.
Wade was the better player with or without the numbers. He was the best player in the Finals and that includes Dirk.

Stop using WS's by the way, they are worthless.

Wade's worst series was better than Lebron's worst. (Wade vs. Chicago vs. LeBron vs. Dallas)
Wade's best series was better than Lebron's best. (Wade vs. Boston/Dallas vs. Lebron vs. Chicago)

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 07:47 PM
You didn't answer my question. Can you have a player in your top 5 who averaged 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the conference finals?
Can you have a player at #1 who single handily lost their team the NBA Finals? For me? No you can't do that, it's the same reason why everybody including Lakers fans could admit Larry Bird was better than Magic and the best player after the '83-'84 season.

1. Wade
2. Howard
3. Dirk
4. Lebron
5. CP3

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 07:48 PM
Wade was the better player with or without the numbers. He was the best player in the Finals and that includes Dirk.

Stop using WS's by the way, they are worthless.

Wade's worst series was better than Lebron's worst. (Wade vs. Chicago vs. LeBron vs. Dallas)
Wade's best series was better than Lebron's best. (Wade vs. Boston/Dallas vs. Lebron vs. Chicago)

you have no chance of proving any of this.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 07:49 PM
you have no chance of proving any of this.
Sure I do. Maybe you should go ahead and tell me how I am wrong instead. I know you are a LeBrick fan but be rational at the least.

naps
10-27-2011, 07:52 PM
first series the guy doesnt show up and hes the next lechoke james. . .

really :facepalm:. . .lebron has choked MULTIPLE TIMES he might be the best all around player but he is missing that fire determination and "clutch" that comes out in the best players when needed. look at kobe, dirk, wade

That has nothing to do with my post that you quoted. That was a question directed to you. See that's the problem here. You probably didn't follow the entire discussion. The reason JB was showing there why LeBron can't be the best is because he was outscored by a bench player (Terry, who happened to be Mavs 2nd best option) who plays starters minutes. Just Manu has been a bench player for the Spurs. That doesn't mean they are role players. Hence the reason I asked JB that question. And quite simply if you nitpick things like these then someone who averages 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the most important series of his career can't be a top 5 player in the league.

And since you think LeBron is overrated I think that should end every discussion with me.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Sure I do. Maybe you should go ahead and tell me how I am wrong instead. I know you are a LeBrick fan but be rational at the least.

I would rather let you take the attempt. I think you joined this site to simply pump Wade over Bron at all costs. Otherwise, I don't feel like wasting my time.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:05 PM
I would rather let you take the attempt. I think you joined this site to simply pump Wade over Bron at all costs. Otherwise, I don't feel like wasting my time.

Actually I have heard more people agreed with me instead of the converse, so you go ahead and start and I'll just laugh and refute all your points. You are a bigger Lebron fan than I am a Wade fan, so you can go ahead and start this debate that I am 99.9% sure that I am going to win.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 08:05 PM
first series the guy doesnt show up and hes the next lechoke james. . .

really :facepalm:. . .lebron has choked MULTIPLE TIMES he might be the best all around player but he is missing that fire determination and "clutch" that comes out in the best players when needed. look at kobe, dirk, wade

Bron didnt choke so early in his career, Rose will never be the next Bron

Chronz
10-27-2011, 08:07 PM
Wade outperformed LBJ in the 2011 playoffs (21 total ).

LBJ: PER: 23.7, TS: .563, WS: 3.8, WS/48: 0.199
Wade: PER: 26.3, TS%: .570, WS: 3.7, WS/48: 0.216

Those are the numbers.

It's pretty clear who would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.

Bron carried the bigger burden on both ends, he faced the superior defender and team scheme in just about every round.

The Finals changed the #'s drastically and by then Bron had done most of the work for Wade, playing 44+ minutes on the reg, elite d on the reg.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 08:11 PM
Actually I have heard more people agreed with me instead of the converse, so you go ahead and start and I'll just laugh and refute all your points. You are a bigger Lebron fan than I am a Wade fan, so you can go ahead and start this debate that I am 99.9% sure that I am going to win.

I am indifferent to LeBron honestly. I pull for him because general fans hate him, but I could care less. Its all part of an equation.

There is no arguing the irrational. LeBron is better than Wade. Period. Its really that easy bro

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:12 PM
I am indifferent to LeBron honestly. I pull for him because general fans hate him, but I could care less. Its all part of an equation.

There is no arguing the irrational. LeBron is better than Wade. Period. Its really that easy bro
Oh so you have nothing. Yeah that's what I thought.

Wade is better than Lebron, at least in the playoffs when it matters the most. Lebron is a better regular season hero than Wade is, I won't deny that.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 08:18 PM
K even if we agree Wade is the better post season player they have played 4 series together to prove that. A rather small sample and given that they took turns dominating at different junctures and only coming together at the same time vs the Celtics/76'ers its fair to say the trends have shown no consistency in one being the better performer from 1 series to the next.

If Wade has another run like this, hopefully Bron can play the type of minutes Wade did this year, and we can have a bigger body of work.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:22 PM
K even if we agree Wade is the better post season player they have played 4 series together to prove that. A rather small sample and given that they took turns dominating at different junctures and only coming together at the same time vs the Celtics/76'ers its fair to say the trends have shown no consistency in one being the better performer from 1 series to the next.

If Wade has another run like this, hopefully Bron can play the type of minutes Wade did this year, and we can have a bigger body of work.
The fact that Lebron played more minutes AND was less productive than Wade was in the playoffs should tell you something. The more minutes you have the more chances you have at being more productive and getting better numbers. Yet even with more minutes played in the post-season he was still less productive than Wade was in the playoffs.

Maybe you can find some stat like per 36, then again if you use per 36, then go use it for the regular season too where Wade and Lebron's production are actually pretty identical.

That being said, being more productive does not always equate to being better. I actually thought Lebron's 2011 playoff numbers would have been more productive than Wade's 2011 playoff numbers before looking at it, but it wasn't.

Either way whether the numbers leaned towards Lebron or Wade, I would have still said Wade was the better playoff performer.

naps
10-27-2011, 08:24 PM
Can you have a player at #1 who single handily lost their team the NBA Finals? For me? No you can't do that, it's the same reason why everybody including Lakers fans could admit Larry Bird was better than Magic and the best player after the '83-'84 season.

1. Wade
2. Howard
3. Dirk
4. Lebron
5. CP3

Yes, I can. That's one series. It depends how you look at it. To me 100 games worth more than 7 games (I know those 7 games are important too but 100 games is too big of a sample to look at it, at least that's how I see it).

And how exactly would you put Howard above LeBron and Dirk if I go by your winning logic? LeBron went deeper and played brilliantly for 3 rounds in the playoffs.

mdm692
10-27-2011, 08:24 PM
That has nothing to do with my post that you quoted. That was a question directed to you. See that's the problem here. You probably didn't follow the entire discussion. The reason JB was showing there why LeBron can't be the best is because he was outscored by a bench player (Terry, who happened to be Mavs 2nd best option) who plays starters minutes. Just Manu has been a bench player for the Spurs. That doesn't mean they are role players. Hence the reason I asked JB that question. And quite simply if you nitpick things like these then someone who averages 9.8% 4th quarter shooting in the most important series of his career can't be a top 5 player in the league.

And since you think LeBron is overrated I think that should end every discussion with me.

no i understood everything what i dont understand is how this is derrick rose's most important series of his career. rose singl handendly carried a team to the best league record and to the ECF in only his 3rd season in the nba. There was no legitimate 2nd option(boozer was half the man he was in utah last season). Noah was also gone for some part of the season. Rose hasnt even reached his prime yet his team isnt even complete. This is like lebrons first trip to the finals were glad he made it that far but he wasnt expected to do much. wait a couple more seasons before you crown him a choke artist.

just for sh1ts and giggles

1.Wade
2.Dirk
3.Lebron
4.Dwight
5.Durant

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 08:25 PM
Oh so you have nothing. Yeah that's what I thought.

Wade is better than Lebron, at least in the playoffs when it matters the most. Lebron is a better regular season hero than Wade is, I won't deny that.

haha, exactly the response I thought I would get. LeBron has been better in his playoff career than Wade, and its easy to prove. You like small sample sizes while ignoring the entire body of work. I get it.

mdm692
10-27-2011, 08:25 PM
.

naps
10-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Bron didnt choke so early in his career, Rose will never be the next Bron

Good point.

zizo
10-27-2011, 08:27 PM
i noticed that some die hard Lebron fans avoid admitting that they are lebron fans.

why? are they embarrassed?

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:29 PM
haha, exactly the response I thought I would get. LeBron has been better in his playoff career than Wade, and its easy to prove. You like small sample sizes while ignoring the entire body of work. I get it.
If its so easy to prove, why is it that Wade has the playoff hardware and Lebron doesn't? If you think its so easy to prove then do it. You aren't doing that right now.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Yes, I can. That's one series.
Oh, so you aren't going to ***** at Lebron for his disappearing act in the 2011 NBA Finals because it was one series but we are going to ***** at Rose's terrible 4th quarter shooting in the 2011 ECF even though that was one series too?

:laugh2: Phenomenal logic .



It depends how you look at it. To me 100 games worth more than 7 games (I know those 7 games are important too but 100 games is too big of a sample to look at it, at least that's how I see it).
Sure. I know Lebron is a better regular season player than Wade, why would I deny that? There is nobody I would rather have in the regular season other than Lebron. I could think of a few that I would rather have over Lebron though and those few would be Wade and Dirk. You seem to agree with Wade, right?



And how exactly would you put Howard above LeBron and Dirk if I go by your winning logic? LeBron went deeper and played brilliantly for 3 rounds in the playoffs.
I am not going by winning logic there. I am just going by who is the best overall player.

If you want me to talk about who was the best player in the 2010-2011 season, meaning all I am doing is evaluating what went down in the '10-'11 season, Dirk would be #1 easily.

1. Dirk
2. Howard
3. Wade
4. Lebron
5. Rose/Durant - I give the edge to Rose but I do understand if one wants to take Durant.

Paul is not top 5 in this situation because he had a very subpar '10-'11 season, but he did dominate in the playoffs. Still that isn't enough to make up his sub-par regular season.

Still if we are talking about overall players, Paul is clearly above Rose and Durant. Dirk is no longer the best because one-dimensional players have never and will never be the best player in the league.

naps
10-27-2011, 08:32 PM
no i understood everything what i dont understand is how this is derrick rose's most important series of his career. rose singl handendly carried a team to the best league record and to the ECF in only his 3rd season in the nba. There was no legitimate 2nd option(boozer was half the man he was in utah last season). Noah was also gone for some part of the season. Rose hasnt even reached his prime yet his team isnt even complete. This is like lebrons first trip to the finals were glad he made it that far but he wasnt expected to do much. wait a couple more seasons before you crown him a choke artist.

just for sh1ts and giggles

1.Wade
2.Dirk
3.Lebron
4.Dwight
5.Durant

You didn't understand at all. I never leveled Rose as choke artist. Rose did a fantastic job in the regular season. His playoffs were as impressive and yes, ECF was by far the most important series of his life thus far. How can you deny that? Let's he beat the Heat in the ECF with great dominance then he would automatically be a top 5 in most people's list. What I said was that you can't just point out to one series and say oh he can't be the best because he got outscored by a bench player (Terry was mavs most efficient player in the finals). That is why I asked JB that question. And clearly he showed double standards as I expected.

naps
10-27-2011, 08:39 PM
Oh, so you aren't going to ***** at Lebron for his disappearing act in the 2011 NBA Finals because it was one series but we are going to ***** at Rose's terrible 4th quarter shooting in the 2011 ECF even though that was one series too?

:laugh2: Phenomenal logic .


Don't make comments until you follow the entire discussion. I questioned JB because he was saying Terry outscored LeBron so he can't be the best. That's why I asked that question.



Sure. I know Lebron is a better regular season player than Wade, why would I deny that? There is nobody I would rather have in the regular season other than Lebron. I could think of a few that I would rather have over Lebron though and those few would be Wade and Dirk. You seem to agree with Wade, right?


I am not going by winning logic there. I am just going by who is the best overall player.

If you want me to talk about who was the best player in the 2010-2011 season, meaning all I am doing is evaluating what went down in the '10-'11 season, Dirk would be #1 easily.

1. Dirk
2. Howard
3. Wade
4. Lebron
5. Rose/Durant - I give the edge to Rose but I do understand if one wants to take Durant.

Paul is not top 5 in this situation because he had a very subpar '10-'11 season, but he did dominate in the playoffs. Still that isn't enough to make up his sub-par regular season.

Still if we are talking about overall players, Paul is clearly above Rose and Durant. Dirk is no longer the best because one-dimensional players have never and will never be the best player in the league.

So you think Howard had a better playoff run than LeBron? Since you wouldn't take anyone over LeBron in the regular season and LeBron played brilliantly in the playoffs for 3 rounds how does that make Howard a better rank?

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 08:44 PM
So you think Howard had a better playoff run than LeBron? Since you wouldn't take anyone over LeBron in the regular season and LeBron played brilliantly in the playoffs for 3 rounds how does that make Howard a better rank?
Just for the record when I said I would take Lebron over anyone in the regular season, that doesn't mean I thought Lebron had the best regular season in the 2010-2011 season. That means I trust Lebron to dominate in the regular season more than I would trust anyone else. That is not to say he had the best '10-'11 RS though. Rose and Howard were better than Lebron was in the '10-'11 RS and Dirk is right behind Lebron too.

Sure. Why would I fault Howard for losing in the 1st round? He did all he could, it's not like he *****ed or checked out like Lebron did. I would understand if one were to have both Wade and Lebron above Howard though. I wouldn't understand if anyone has anyone other than maybe Wade over Dirk though.

Dirk had the best season in the 2010-2011 season, but he wasn't the best overall player. There is a difference and it's a difference that it seems like many people do not understand. Dirk was the best playoff performer in the 2011 playoffs and he had a very underrated regular season and had the 3rd or 4th best regular season behind Rose, Howard, and maybe Lebron.

mdm692
10-27-2011, 08:48 PM
You didn't understand at all. I never leveled Rose as choke artist. Rose did a fantastic job in the regular season. His playoffs were as impressive and yes, ECF was by far the most important series of his life thus far. How can you deny that? Let's he beat the Heat in the ECF with great dominance then he would automatically be a top 5 in most people's list. What I said was that you can't just point out to one series and say oh he can't be the best because he got outscored by a bench player (Terry was mavs most efficient player in the finals). That is why I asked JB that question. And clearly he showed double standards as I expected.

I understand the double standard bout terry outscoring lebron etc. My point is rose had a ****** offensive team that relied so much on him so when he did struggle nobody else stepped up.

naps
10-27-2011, 08:55 PM
I understand the double standard bout terry outscoring lebron etc. My point is rose had a ****** offensive team that relied so much on him so when he did struggle nobody else stepped up.

That was my point. I hate double standards.

naps
10-27-2011, 09:00 PM
Just for the record when I said I would take Lebron over anyone in the regular season, that doesn't mean I thought Lebron had the best regular season in the 2010-2011 season. That means I trust Lebron to dominate in the regular season more than I would trust anyone else. That is not to say he had the best '10-'11 RS though. Rose and Howard were better than Lebron was in the '10-'11 RS and Dirk is right behind Lebron too.

Sure. Why would I fault Howard for losing in the 1st round? He did all he could, it's not like he *****ed or checked out like Lebron did. I would understand if one were to have both Wade and Lebron above Howard though. I wouldn't understand if anyone has anyone other than maybe Wade over Dirk though.

Dirk had the best season in the 2010-2011 season, but he wasn't the best overall player. There is a difference and it's a difference that it seems like many people do not understand. Dirk was the best playoff performer in the 2011 playoffs and he had a very underrated regular season and had the 3rd or 4th best regular season behind Rose, Howard, and maybe Lebron.

Damn, you make rules how you look at things and expect everyone to agree with your self made rules? Your problem is you take small sample sizes and consider them for everything.

Tell me this: How many people did have Drik in their top 5 before the finals? All of a sudden he became the best player after just series even though he played poorly in that series compared to the previous ones? Dirk was the same individual player that he was before and after the finals. The same player. I don't know why this is so tough to understand.

Lord Leoshes
10-27-2011, 09:12 PM
I don't understand how you rank someone #1 in the league when he gets outscored in a series against a non star that comes off the bench when he himself is in his prime.


Are you really going to discredit everything hes done over the years, & solely base your opinions on a hand full of games?

You don't think that's the epitome of being narrow minded? :eyebrow:

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Did not think you could make a worse list than ESPN but man oh man did they ever.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Are you really going to discredit everything hes done over the years, & solely base your opinions on a hand full of games?

You don't think that's the epitome of being narrow minded? :eyebrow:


It's incredible how often people live in the moment.....Dirk falls short for like 6 years and has a average playoff performance and he gets ranked in the top 5.

Lebron has an amazing first 3 playoff series and I mean AMAZING and an albeit horrible Finals performance and BAAAAM not even top 5 on some people's list.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:24 PM
Damn, you make rules how you look at things and expect everyone to agree with your self made rules? Your problem is you take small sample sizes and consider them for everything.
You don't have to agree with them if you don't want, but I have hard time logically disagreeing with what I said.



Tell me this: How many people did have Drik in their top 5 before the finals?
A lot of people if we are including how Dirk dominated the Lakers and Thunder.


All of a sudden he became the best player after just series even though he played poorly in that series compared to the previous ones? Dirk was the same individual player that he was before and after the finals. The same player. I don't know why this is so tough to understand.
Your comprehension is really laughable. I never said Dirk was the best overall player; I said he had the best season in the 2010-2011 season. Maybe Avenged24 should explain this to you about this since he didn't seem to have a hard time understanding what I was trying to say yesterday when I was talking to him.

Who had a better season than Dirk did? Season, I am talking just the 2010-2011 season too, don't talk about anything else prior, don't talk about the future, don't talk about anything else other than the season. Who had a better season than him? Go ahead, tell me who did, because I have all night informing you about something you are clearly uninformed about.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 09:30 PM
LeBron counters your numbers with far better defense.

But yes, if LeBron would have simply been average for him in the finals, he takes dump on everyone else's numbers.


Bron carried the bigger burden on both ends, he faced the superior defender and team scheme in just about every round.

The Finals changed the #'s drastically and by then Bron had done most of the work for Wade, playing 44+ minutes on the reg, elite d on the reg.

I know. LBJ faced tougher schemes and carried a bigger load on defense. That's large in part why Wade was able to put up better numbers (along with LBJ's collapse in the Finals). Not stating that Wade is the better player, only that he put up better numbers, and would have been the Finals MVP. "Out-performed" was a poor choice of words on my part.

LBJs defensive role was more important, but I wouldn't say he was miles above Wade defensively within their given roles, given that LBJs role was more important. But yea, clearly defensive edge, LeBron if not because it was superior, because his role was more important to the teams overall defense. I do find it interesting that Wade and LBJ had identical d-ratings for the playoffs, despite the discrepancy in total minutes played.

It is crazy that LBJ played more than over two games worth of minutes as Wade did over the 21 game playoff (and Wade still got injured in the end). I guess Spo did what he had to do, but it came back to haunt them. LBJ was burnt out by the Finals. They have to find away to cut down his minutes and still win huge games in the playoffs. IMO, no rings until they do.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:32 PM
I know. LBJ faced tougher schemes and carried a bigger load on defense. That's large in part why Wade was able to put up better numbers (along with LBJ's collapse in the Finals). Not stating that Wade is the better player, only that he put up better numbers, and would have been the Finals MVP. "Out-performed" was a poor choice of words on my part.
.
I am pretty sure you PMd me and told me you do believe that. That being said I am kind of annoyed with how you are always ignoring my posts when I respond to you. And Wade did outperform Lebron.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 09:38 PM
I am pretty sure you PMd me and told me you do believe that. That being said I am kind of annoyed with how you are always ignoring my posts when I respond to you. And Wade did outperform Lebron.

I think Wade is a better finals performer. I think Wade should close the ball games. Wade isn't capable of being a defensive anchor, LBJ is. LBJ is a better facilitator and a better rebounder. I think Wade is mentally tougher than LBJ; I think he has more heart.

If I'm taking a player for the regular season, I'm taking LBJ. If I'm taking a guy for the playoffs, I'll probably go Wade.

Wade put up better statistics, and would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.

naps
10-27-2011, 09:40 PM
You don't have to agree with them if you don't want, but I have hard time logically disagreeing with what I said.


A lot of people if we are including how Dirk dominated the Lakers and Thunder.

Your comprehension is really laughable. I never said Dirk was the best overall player; I said he had the best season in the 2010-2011 season. Maybe Avenged24 should explain this to you about this since he didn't seem to have a hard time understanding what I was trying to say yesterday when I was talking to him.

Who had a better season than Dirk did? Season, I am talking just the 2010-2011 season too, don't talk about anything else prior, don't talk about the future, don't talk about anything else other than the season. Who had a better season than him? Go ahead, tell me who did, because I have all night informing you about something you are clearly uninformed about.

You are such a liar. I have seen you plenty of times putting Dirk as the best player. I am pretty sure many people also saw that.

Anyway, if Dirk had the best season but still he's not the best player then how is Wade or someone else is better player than Dirk now?

The problem is you expect people to agree with you and then if they don't you start knocking them. You are posting on many posters' profiles, asking them something, and once they don't give you the answer you want you start knocking. Here's an example (which you did a couple of hours ago):


PinnacleFlash:
Yo, who do you think is better between Wade and Lebron? Best player on the Heat, i.e.

Wade>Kobe:
It's LeBron. It simply cannot be argued at this point. Its closer than most will admit... but it's LeBron.

PinnacleFlash:
alright, nice to know I shouldn't take your opinion seriously, Wade is a better playoff performer than Lebton though, but I'm assuming since you are a Lebrick fan you feel Lebrick is better in the playoffs too? Yeah prol.

Wade>Kobe:
Thanks for wasting my time. Just because my opinion differs with yours, suddenly 1) I'm a Lebrick fan, 2) my opinion shouldn't be taken seriously, and 3) I think LeBron is better in the playoffs?
Sorry, dude. I have better things to do than waste my time with childish accusations simply because I didn't give you the answer you want.

PinnacleFlash:
okay, then who is a better playoff performer between wade and lebron? Wade right?

Wade>Kobe:
Playoffs on the whole = close. Arguably LeBron.
NBA Finals = Wade, by a good amount.
What's your point? There are 4x as many games in the regular season as in the playoffs.

PinnacleFlash:
playoffs on the whole = wade, you are uninformed.

Wade>Kobe:
Sounds good. Why were you asking my opinion if you already knew the answer? Just wanted to educate me?

PinnacleFlash:
pretty much. wade = da better playoff performer, too bad you don't understand

Wade>Kobe:
Cool story, Bro. What are you trying to accomplish?


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/converse.php?u=183433&u2=73196

This just one example. And there are plenty. So it makes no sense to argue with you.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 09:41 PM
I find it interesting that LBJ has lead the league in regular season PER for half of his eight seasons, yet only once in the playoffs.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:42 PM
I think Wade is a better finals performer. I think Wade should close the ball games. Wade isn't capable of being a defensive anchor, LBJ is. LBJ is a better facilitator and a better rebounder. I think Wade is mentally tougher than LBJ; I think he has more heart.

If I'm taking a player for the regular season, I'm taking LBJ. If I'm taking a guy for the playoffs, I'll probably go Wade.

Wade put up better statistics, and would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.

Not too sure about that. Wade when he play defense is insane. He obviously doesn't do it too often but I truly believe if he worth the defensive anchor it would've worked just as good as Lebron being it.

Lebron being the better rebound and facilitator is acceptable.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 09:45 PM
I am pretty sure you PMd me and told me you do believe that. That being said I am kind of annoyed with how you are always ignoring my posts when I respond to you. And Wade did outperform Lebron.

What I told you over a PM is irrelevant. That wasn't the purpose of my post (to say who was the better player). Which is why I said "not stating that Wade is the better player" Get it? even if that's my opinion, it wasn't what was being said, nor the point of my post.

And I don't respond to plenty of posts, just as others don't response to plenty of mine. Such is forum life, don't take it personally.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:46 PM
I think Wade is a better finals performer. I think Wade should close the ball games. Wade isn't capable of being a defensive anchor, LBJ is. LBJ is a better facilitator and a better rebounder. I think Wade is mentally tougher than LBJ; I think he has more heart.

If I'm taking a player for the regular season, I'm taking LBJ. If I'm taking a guy for the playoffs, I'll probably go Wade.

Wade put up better statistics, and would have been Finals MVP had the Heat won.
Which is why I say Wade is the better player of the two, but I do understand one taking Lebron since he does put your team in a better situation/position in the playoffs.


What I told you over a PM is irrelevant. That wasn't the purpose of my post (to say who was the better player). Which is why I said "not stating that Wade is the better player" Get it? even if that's my opinion, it wasn't what was being said, nor the point of my post.

And I don't respond to plenty of posts, just as others don't response to plenty of mine. Such is forum life, don't take it personally.

Fair enough....

That being said, can you explain why you use individual defensive rating and win shares to evaluate defensive players? I always thought that they were pretty inaccurate. Win shares are more accurate but they are still both pretty inaccurate IMO.




You are such a liar. I have seen you plenty of times putting Dirk as the best player. I am pretty sure many people also saw that.

Like many others, I was confused with what being the best overall player meant and what having the best season meant. I thought they were synonymous, they are not.



Anyway, if Dirk had the best season but still he's not the best player then how is Wade or someone else is better player than Dirk now?
Dirk had the best season in 2010-2011, but he was not the best overall player. What is so confusing about that? If you want me to use an example, I'll use it right here.

Kevin Garnett was never better than Tim Duncan before the 07-08 season. Yet I can almost guarantee you that 90% of NBA fans would say Kevin Garnett was the best player and better than Tim Duncan was in 03-04. What they actually mean by that is that KG had the better season, not the better overall player. Because I would really like for someone to tell me what exactly changed from 02-03 to 03-04 about Duncan's game. What changed exactly? Nothing.



This just one example. And there are plenty. So it makes no sense to argue with you.
You don't want to argue with me because you would lose like always.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:46 PM
You are such a liar. I have seen you plenty of times putting Dirk as the best player. I am pretty sure many people also saw that.

Anyway, if Dirk had the best season but still he's not the best player then how is Wade or someone else is better player than Dirk now?

The problem is you expect people to agree with you and then if they don't you start knocking them. You are posting on many posters' profiles, asking them something, and once they don't give you the answer you start knocking. Here's an example (which you did a couple of hours ago):



http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/converse.php?u=183433&u2=73196

This just one example. And there are plenty. So it makes no sense to argue with you.

Like I said to Pinnacle, if you asked me who I would take in the Finals I'd take Wade over any one player in the league.

Wade proved twice he's great in the Finals. However you're crazy in you forgot how he got to the Finals(Lebron being absolutely insane during the first 3 playoff series).

The Heat lost. Wade should have been able to carry Lebron in the Finals like Lebron carried Wade in the Conference Finals. He didn't.

Still love Wade.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Not too sure about that. Wade when he play defense is insane. He obviously doesn't do it too often but I truly believe if he worth the defensive anchor it would've worked just as good as Lebron being it.

Lebron being the better rebound and facilitator is acceptable.

Wade is a great defender. Being an anchor requires protecting the bucket from the opposing teams front line and guards. Wade may get a shot block a game but a 6'4 guard isn't physically capable of anchoring a championship defense. There is no example of that happening, and Cooper in the 80's doesn't count.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 09:48 PM
The fact that Lebron played more minutes AND was less productive than Wade was in the playoffs should tell you something.
Indeed, it begs the question why would their coach elect to keep such an efficient per minute force on the bench? Maybe because he felt the team was better suited with Wade operating in that lower capacity, hoping the younger, stronger player could hold up operating at a 44+MPG capacity.

Also you would first have to define more productive. Given that extra PT Bron did allocate more Win Shares than Wade and this is with the system underrating his defensive impact. If you go by PER or other Per Possession metrics then the minutes disparity comes into play because of the unique load he carried for a Finals team. I have no problem saying Wade had the better overall playoff run but saying hes the better player is another matter. One that isnt bolstered by this playoff run. Both had their moments


The more minutes you have the more chances you have at being more productive and getting better numbers. Yet even with more minutes played in the post-season he was still less productive than Wade was in the playoffs.
What are you basing this opinion on? Playing an absurd amount of minutes per game at an absurdly high level on both ends against a gauntlet of elite defensive teams can and will wear on anyone. If your talking about cumulative stats then Bron was more productive, if your talking about per possession efficiency then Wade was better. Overall I would agree Wade was more impressive but Im not going to ignore the entire season given Brons role.


Maybe you can find some stat like per 36, then again if you use per 36, then go use it for the regular season too where Wade and Lebron's production are actually pretty identical.

What are you talking about?


That being said, being more productive does not always equate to being better. I actually thought Lebron's 2011 playoff numbers would have been more productive than Wade's 2011 playoff numbers before looking at it, but it wasn't.

Either way whether the numbers leaned towards Lebron or Wade, I would have still said Wade was the better playoff performer.

But you spoke of #'s as if you had some proof of correlation somewhere. Can I see these #'s?

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:49 PM
Wade is a great defender. Being an anchor requires protecting the bucket from the opposing teams front line and guards. Wade may get a shot block a game but a 6'4 guard isn't physically capable of anchoring a championship defense. There is no example of that happening, and Cooper in the 80's doesn't count.
Lebron cannot anchor a defense, lets not overrate the hell out of his defense here. He is no Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, or even Kevin Garnett when it comes down to defense. He is a good individual defender but its not like he is the reason why the Heat are so damn great defensively. He doesn't make that big of an impact on the defense like a defensive anchor like Dwight Howard does.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Wade is a great defender. Being an anchor requires protecting the bucket from the opposing teams front line and guards. Wade may get a shot block a game but a 6'4 guard isn't physically capable of anchoring a championship defense. There is no example of that happening, and Cooper in the 80's doesn't count.

Fair enough. I think having a 6'8" center or whatever the **** Joel Anthony was hurt the Heat a lot and may be the reason why Wade being the anchor wouldn't be too successful. Don't get me wrong JA is a great defender but he lacks SO much size and his hands are quite possible the worst I've ever seen.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 09:51 PM
If its so easy to prove, why is it that Wade has the playoff hardware and Lebron doesn't? If you think its so easy to prove then do it. You aren't doing that right now.

Its simple to prove LeBron has been better in the regular season, playoffs, and career. You simply use 1 portion of the huge equation.

You didn't open the link I provided. LeBron has been better on the offensive, and defensive end. And when he leads YOUR team to a ring, I have no clue how you plan on defending your claims.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 09:51 PM
Wade is a great defender. Being an anchor requires protecting the bucket from the opposing teams front line and guards. Wade may get a shot block a game but a 6'4 guard isn't physically capable of anchoring a championship defense. There is no example of that happening, and Cooper in the 80's doesn't count.

Moncrief, Wade and Bron are both anchors. Its their combined efforts that make up for their lack of size.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 09:52 PM
Speculation world Pinnacle, we can both go there..... :)

evadatam5150
10-27-2011, 09:52 PM
Erroneous.. Discontinue My subscription to that rag..:clap:

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Moncrief, Wade and Bron are both anchors. Its their combined efforts that make up for their lack of size.

This and Chris Bosh's having underrated defensive is exactly why the Heat were crazy on defense even though they had a horribly undersized center.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:54 PM
Speculation world Pinnacle, we can both go there..... :)

My dad can beat up your mom.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:56 PM
And when he leads YOUR team to a ring, I have no clue how you plan on defending your claims.
I won't have to because it will be Wade that is carrying the team like usual. Why else would Lebron come to Miami? So he can lead? :rolleyes:

If Lebron is such a better playoff performer than Wade then there should be a difference between the playoff hardware between the two, should there?



Also you would first have to define more productive. Given that extra PT Bron did allocate more Win Shares than Wade and this is with the system underrating his defensive impact.

Win shares are worth a grain of salt to me so you better find a new/better argument. It's a sloppy stat.


But you spoke of #'s as if you had some proof of correlation somewhere. Can I see these #'s?

If your talking about cumulative stats then Bron was more productive, if your talking about per possession efficiency then Wade was better.
Yeah those numbers are PER and Wade had better numbers either way


here are the basic stats.....

Wade: 25/7/4/2/1 with 49% FG, 50% eFG, and 57% TS
LeBron: 24/8/6/2/1 with 47% FG, 51% eFG, and 56% TS.

This is not even factoring how Lebron played more minutes than Wade did.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 09:56 PM
My dad can beat up your mom.

grrrrr

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 09:57 PM
I won't have to because it will be Wade that is carrying the team like usual. Why else would Lebron come to Miami? So he can lead? :rolleyes:

If Lebron is such a better playoff performer than Wade then there should be a difference between the playoff hardware between the two, should there?


Win shares are worth a grain of salt to me so you better find a new/better argument. It's a sloppy stat.


Yeah those numbers are PER and Wade had better numbers either way


here are the basic stats.....

Wade: 25/7/4/2/1 with 49% FG, 50% eFG, and 57% TS
LeBron: 24/8/6/2/1 with 47% FG, 51% eFG, and 56% TS.

This is not even factoring how Lebron played more minutes than Wade did.

basic stats are for 3rd graders. You have zip understanding of statistics if that is your push.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 09:57 PM
Jokes on you I have two dads

Correct response.

NYMetros
10-27-2011, 09:58 PM
ESPN's list, 1-9, was about as spot on as you get. SLAM continues its streak of sucking. Congrats on the consistency.

Yeah, this. I usually am not very critical of these kinds of lists but this is just horrible.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:59 PM
basic stats are for 3rd graders. You have zip understanding of statistics if that is your push.
I'm usually not someone that brings up stats to determine who is better, but in this case Wade was better and was more productive.

Being the most productive player is not the same as being the best player. But then again you are whatever that is pro-Lebron.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 10:03 PM
Correct response.

not really funny.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 10:03 PM
I'm usually not someone that brings up stats to determine who is better, but in this case Wade was better and was more productive.

Being the most productive player is not the same as being the best player. But then again you are whatever that is pro-Lebron.

confirmed, you have no idea how to measure stats. Thanks. We are done.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 10:04 PM
Indeed, it begs the question why would their coach elect to keep such an efficient per minute force on the bench? Maybe because he felt the team was better suited with Wade operating in that lower capacity, hoping the younger, stronger player could hold up operating at a 44+MPG capacity.

That being said, the Heat coach who I think is a moron by the way, played Lebron more because he is younger, not because he is better. Why would you play more minutes for a near 30 year old who has dealt with frequent injury problems in his career over a 26 year old who has never dealt with injury problems (somehow)? This is why I don't buy that stamina argument either. Lebron is 26 years old, if he was over 30 then I would buy it but he isn't. It's a weak excuse really.

There is no reason why a 26 year old should be gassed and if he was gassed than that just makes it even more apparent that he isn't the best.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 10:05 PM
confirmed, you have no idea how to measure stats. Thanks. We are done.
Sure, I know how to measure stats.

Wade: 1 championship ring
Lebron: 0 championship ring

Wade: 1 finals MVP
Lebron: 0 finals MVP

Wade: Respected
Lebron: Running joke

Were any of my stats incorrect?

Hawkeye15
10-27-2011, 10:07 PM
Sure, I know how to measure stats.

Wade: 1 championship ring
Lebron: 0 championship ring

Wade: 1 finals MVP
Lebron: 0 finals MVP

Wade: Respected
Lebron: Running joke

Were any of my stats incorrect?

hahaha

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 10:08 PM
That being said, the Heat coach who I think is a moron by the way, played Lebron more because he is younger, not because he is better. Why would you play more minutes for a near 30 year old who has dealt with frequent injury problems in his career over a 26 year old who has never dealt with injury problems (somehow)? This is why I don't buy that stamina argument either. Lebron is 26 years old, if he was over 30 then I would buy it but he isn't. It's a weak excuse really.

There is no reason why a 26 year old should be gassed and if he was gassed than that just makes it even more apparent that he isn't the best.


I think that had more to do with a hurt inefficient backup rather than whose better. Wade had JJ, Lebron, Chalmers, Bibby, Arroyo, and House to cover his spot. While Lebron only had JJ, Miller(rarity), or a 40yr old PF.

naps
10-27-2011, 10:10 PM
many others, I was confused with what being the best overall player meant and what having the best season meant. I thought they were synonymous, they are not.

Dirk had the best season in 2010-2011, but he was not the best overall player. What is so confusing about that?


Definitely Dirk didn't have the best season. He didn't lead in anything. Not in any actual stats or any advanced categories. That includes regular season and playoffs. But ofcourse you wouldn't care about any of that over your opinion.
And I don't even know who your top top players are and where Dirk ranks there. I would like to see the explanation of why someone is better than Dirk in your list.



You don't want to argue with me because you would lose like always.

That's why you keep posting on random profiles and ask them who is better between Wade and LeBron to satisfy yourself and when they don't give you the answer you want you get mad at them? Here' another (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/converse.php?u=183433&u2=60577) where you don't want Wade to win another ring even though he's your fav because that would mean LeBron wins too.

And if I was losing with you, why do you get banned every week? I claim yourself a winner over everyone who disagrees with you. What's too surprising here?

naps
10-27-2011, 10:15 PM
Moncrief, Wade and Bron are both anchors. Its their combined efforts that make up for their lack of size.

Agreed. Wade's defense is underrated in some people's eyes.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Definitely Dirk didn't have the best season. He didn't lead in anything. Not in any actual stats or any advanced categories. That includes regular season and playoffs. But ofcourse you wouldn't care about any of that over your opinion.
Interesting so because he wasn't the most productive that means he wasn't the best?

Sorry but there has always been a difference between being the most productive and being the best. If there was no difference than Kevin Love would be a top 10 player today, yet how often do you see Love in the top 10?

-Dirk finished 6th in the MVP voting and he probably should have finished higher above both Durant and Kobe.
-He was one of the legitimate candidates and one of the favorites to win it before his injury where he missed 9 games and the Mavericks went 2-7 without him.
-Dirk led the Mavericks to a 57-25 record, with Dirk they were 55-18.
-Dirk was the best player in the 2011 playoffs and if you do wanna argue that then this will be the easiest debate of my life.


I have no clue how it is hard to understand that Dirk had the best season in 2010-2011. He had a top 5 regular season and was the clear cut best player in the 2011 playoffs. It's not too difficult to understand why people believe Dirk had the best season last season.



And if I was losing with you, why do you get banned every week? I claim yourself a winner over everyone who disagrees with you. What's too surprising here?
Because I use to dick around a lot, it doesn't mean you are winning in an argument against me, because you have never and you never will.

naps
10-27-2011, 10:25 PM
[QUOTE=PinnacleFlash;19616304]Interesting so because he wasn't the most productive that means he wasn't the best?

Sorry but there has always been a difference between being the most productive and being the best. If there was no difference than Kevin Love would be a top 10 player today, yet how often do you see Love in the top 10?

-Dirk finished 6th in the MVP voting and he probably should have finished higher above both Durant and Kobe.
-He was one of the legitimate candidates and one of the favorites to win it before his injury where he missed 9 games and the Mavericks went 2-7 without him.
-Dirk led the Mavericks to a 57-25 record, with Dirk they were 55-18.
-Dirk was the best player in the 2011 playoffs and if you do wanna argue that then this will be the easiest debate of my life.


I have no clue how it is hard to understand that Dirk had the best season in 2010-2011. He had a top 5 regular season and was the clear cut best player in the 2011 playoffs. It's not too difficult to understand why people believe Dirk had the best season last season.

YES, you have no clue what you are talking about. Neither of those bolded ones make him have the best season. His actual and advanced stats don't support it.That goes for both regular season and playoffs. I am not gonna even talk about his defense.

I am curious to see who you think is better player than Dirk and why.


Because I use to dick around a lot, it doesn't mean you are winning in an argument against me, because you have never and you never will.

And you think you are not dicking around anymore? LMAO! You are knocking on everyone who's not agreeing with you. But it's good to see you finally stopped making dupes.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 10:26 PM
I know. LBJ faced tougher schemes and carried a bigger load on defense. That's large in part why Wade was able to put up better numbers (along with LBJ's collapse in the Finals). Not stating that Wade is the better player, only that he put up better numbers, and would have been the Finals MVP. "Out-performed" was a poor choice of words on my part.

LBJs defensive role was more important, but I wouldn't say he was miles above Wade defensively within their given roles, given that LBJs role was more important. But yea, clearly defensive edge, LeBron if not because it was superior, because his role was more important to the teams overall defense. I do find it interesting that Wade and LBJ had identical d-ratings for the playoffs, despite the discrepancy in total minutes played.

It is crazy that LBJ played more than over two games worth of minutes as Wade did over the 21 game playoff (and Wade still got injured in the end). I guess Spo did what he had to do, but it came back to haunt them. LBJ was burnt out by the Finals. They have to find away to cut down his minutes and still win huge games in the playoffs. IMO, no rings until they do.

I wasnt disagreeing with your claims so I have no problem with your wording, I was just throwing that in there for consideration.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 10:30 PM
Moncrief, Wade and Bron are both anchors. Its their combined efforts that make up for their lack of size.

You think? I always felt like Wade was great with playing the lanes and as the weak side shot-blocker but never got the anchor vibe from him. I feel like he's capable of locking down his man, playing lanes and weak side shot blocking, but never felt like he could be the heart of a lock-down defense.

What am I missing? Maybe my definition is too rigid?

Chronz
10-27-2011, 10:30 PM
I find it interesting that LBJ has lead the league in regular season PER for half of his eight seasons, yet only once in the playoffs.

LOL I find it interesting that you say that almost immediately after I thought that to myself upon glancing at his #'s now.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 10:31 PM
I wasnt disagreeing with your claims so I have no problem with your wording, I was just throwing that in there for consideration.

Got ya.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 10:33 PM
LOL I find it interesting that you say that almost immediately after I thought that to myself upon glancing at his #'s now.

:laugh2:

Honestly, his coaches play him too many minutes. The dude just breaks down after playing obscene minutes, like any other player would. Carrying 260-270 on a 6'8 frame doesn't help either.

I don't think the Heat win a ring until they figure out how to win games while playing him 38-39 minutes a night; 44 is just too much.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 10:35 PM
Fair enough. I think having a 6'8" center or whatever the **** Joel Anthony was hurt the Heat a lot and may be the reason why Wade being the anchor wouldn't be too successful. Don't get me wrong JA is a great defender but he lacks SO much size and his hands are quite possible the worst I've ever seen.

Yeah.

haha, like Kwame

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 10:36 PM
YES, you have no clue what you are talking about. Neither of those bolded ones make him have the best season. His actual and advanced stats don't support it.That goes for both regular season and playoffs. I am not gonna even talk about his defense. It sounds like you didn't read a thing I just posted. I just said being the most productive and being the best are different. You don't have to be the most productive to be the best, does it correlate? Every now and then, but if you think it does 100% of the time you don't know a thing.

Quick question, where does Kevin Love rank currently in the league? Oh and is Russell Westbrok just as good, if not better than Derrick Rose? Answer yes for both and we are done.



And you think you are not dicking around anymore? LMAO! You are knocking on everyone who's not agreeing with you. But it's good to see you finally stopped making dupes.
I never made dupes, but I love how you are stalking me and keep bringing up irrelevant points. Cute.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 10:39 PM
That being said, can you explain why you use individual defensive rating and win shares to evaluate defensive players? I always thought that they were pretty inaccurate. Win shares are more accurate but they are still both pretty inaccurate IMO.


As convenient as it is to say this; those are commonly accepted advanced stats. Given their status, it's not my job to defend them. If you don't like them the burden of disproving their relevance is on you.

naps
10-27-2011, 10:55 PM
[QUOTE=PinnacleFlash;19616554]It sounds like you didn't read a thing I just posted. I just said being the most productive and being the best are different. You don't have to be the most productive to be the best, does it correlate? Every now and then, but if you think it does 100% of the time you don't know a thing.


What makes the best player if not the most productive? Why don't you explain broadly what makes Dirk the best? Remember I don't want your opinionated explanation.

Also why don't you tell me who is your best player and why? I see you keep ignoring this since you probably don't have any explanation for that. Give me your top 5 players and explain why someone is better than Dirk since he's not the best player you said.



Quick question, where does Kevin Love rank currently in the league? Oh and is Russell Westbrok just as good, if not better than Derrick Rose? Answer yes for both and we are done.

Love will be ranked once he starts playing defense. As of now he doesn't know what D means. I don't pay too much attention to players that don't know what defensee is. And Love also doesn't know how to lead. So he's not in my top 15 as of now. Westbrook is much closer to Rose than many think but Rose is the better overall player of the two because he's more efficient and he more of a take over guy.



I never made dupes, but I love how you are stalking me and keep bringing up irrelevant points. Cute

Yeah, RaealistRocket24, BigDiseal and plenty others, But it's ok you don't do it anymore.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 10:56 PM
That being said, the Heat coach who I think is a moron by the way, played Lebron more because he is younger, not because he is better.Your missing the point, its not the SOLE reason hes better but it is A reason. The ability to withstand those minutes is an attribute Wade does not share, and honestly he has never had it at ANY age so thats a weak excuse.


Why would you play more minutes for a near 30 year old who has dealt with frequent injury problems in his career over a 26 year old who has never dealt with injury problems (somehow)?
Thats the point, you cant expect Wade to carry Brons load which is why you have to take Wade's superior stats (whichever you allude to) into closer consideration. Its not as cut and dry as you want it to be.


This is why I don't buy that stamina argument either. Lebron is 26 years old, if he was over 30 then I would buy it but he isn't. It's a weak excuse really.

This doesnt correlate with the above, Bron is a freak but hes still human. Every human has a breaking point, given his unique situation its a very logical deduction that it played a role, especially when you consider that any comparable example in terms of all the variables I have mentioned have shown players who fall off come Finals. You dont just forget how to play defense, you get tired legs. Either way, the fact remains those minutes do mean something, they represent a load that Spo thought Wade could not carry.


There is no reason why a 26 year old should be gassed and if he was gassed than that just makes it even more apparent that he isn't the best.

This makes no sense, essentially your blaming LeBron for failing at something that you readily acknowledge Wade could not do. Your bias is starting to shine through.



Win shares are worth a grain of salt to me so you better find a new/better argument. It's a sloppy stat.
Forgive me if Im not convinced that you have all the answers to the debate that has waged on since APBR first popped up, PER/WS are 2 sides of the same coin, meant to provide contrast. Either way my argument is unchanged because you havent actually shown any #'s.


Yeah those numbers are PER and Wade had better numbers either way
Either way? No if its not a system of linear weights who has the better basic #'s is still up for discussion.



here are the basic stats.....

Wade: 25/7/4/2/1 with 49% FG, 50% eFG, and 57% TS
LeBron: 24/8/6/2/1 with 47% FG, 51% eFG, and 56% TS.



This is not even factoring how Lebron played more minutes than Wade did.

Yes thats the point, his superior PER completely ignores the workload difference. I have no doubt that Wade still comes out on top when you look at PER's bastard cousin but the fact remains the extra MPG Bron was capable of carrying closes the gap. That Wade was more productive by these measures is a byproduct of his talent but also being utilized in a role that could maximize his efficiency and aside from Chicago, benefited from all the attention Bron got.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 11:08 PM
What makes the best player if not the most productive? Why don't you explain broadly what makes Dirk the best? Remember I don't want your opinionated explanation.
I can think of plenty of players who were not #1 in production during the season but had the best season. It doesn't correlate but since you can't read that part it doesn't matter.



Also why don't you tell me who is your best player and why? I see you keep ignoring this since you probably don't have any explanation for that. Give me your top 5 players and explain why someone is better than Dirk since he's not the best player you said.
Top 5 overall
1. Wade/Howard
2. Howard/Wade
3. Lebron/Dirk
4. Dirk/Lebron
5. Paul

Top 5 players in the 10-11 season
1. Dirk
2. Howard
3. Wade
4. Lebron
5. Rose/Durant

You could put Wade and Lebron over Dwight and I wouldn't care.


Dirk is not the best overall player because he doesn't impact the game as much as Wade or Howard does. He is still the best scorer in the league though, just not by a wide margin.


Love will be ranked once he starts playing defense. As of now he doesn't know what D means. I don't pay too much attention to players that don't know what defensee is. And Love also doesn't know how to lead. So he's not in my top 15 as of now. Westbrook is much closer to Rose than many think but Rose is the better overall player of the two because he's more efficient and he more of a take over guy.
Oh he's not Top 15? Why not? He was 4th in the league in PER, so he is obviously the 4th most productive player in the league. More productive than Kobe, Cp3, Durant, Rose, Dirk, and Westbrook. He should be top 5, after all he is the 4th most productive player in the league.


Yeah, RaealistRocket24, BigDiseal and plenty others, But it's ok you don't do it anymore.
Pretty cute that you think that.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 11:15 PM
Your missing the point, its not the SOLE reason hes better but it is A reason. The ability to withstand those minutes is an attribute Wade does not share, and honestly he has never had it at ANY age so thats a weak excuse.

Interesting....

Lebron played 922 minutes in the 2011 playoffs and he was gassed right?

Because Wade played 959 minutes in the 2006 playoffs. How exactly did he do at the end of those playoffs? I could have sworn he completely ripped the Dallas Mavericks and their fans's heart apart.

So Wade played about 37 more minutes more than Lebron did and Wade dominated the Mavericks and won the championship while Lebron flamed out and was looking for an inhaler? It looks like Wade was capable of withstanding those minutes and had those attributes at some point.

I'll make this a post and continue responding from here so you will have the time to think about that foolish statement you just made.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 11:26 PM
Yeah.

haha, like Kwame



Atleast Kwame has a big body and can finish a dunk(I think, can't remember watching him play much). Watching some 6'8" guy miss a wide open dunk is just heartbreaking. I know 5'8" white guys that can finish a dunk better.

naps
10-27-2011, 11:28 PM
I can think of plenty of players who were not #1 in production during the season but had the best season. It doesn't correlate but since you can't read that part it doesn't matter.


Give me examples. I wanna hear.




Top 5 overall
1. Wade/Howard
2. Howard/Wade
3. Lebron/Dirk
4. Dirk/Lebron
5. Paul

Top 5 players in the 10-11 season
1. Dirk
2. Howard
3. Wade
4. Lebron
5. Rose/Durant

You could put Wade and Lebron over Dwight and I wouldn't care.


Dirk is not the best overall player because he doesn't impact the game as much as Wade or Howard does. He is still the best scorer in the league though, just not by a wide margin.

If Drik doesn't impact the game as much as Wade or Howard does then how did Wade or Howard didn't have the best season since they both had better statistics as well. If statistically Wade and Howard over Dirk and impact-wise Wade and Howard over Drik then how did Dirk had the best season?




Oh he's not Top 15? Why not? He was 4th in the league in PER, so he is obviously the 4th most productive player in the league. More productive than Kobe, Cp3, Durant, Rose, Dirk, and Westbrook. He should be top 5, after all he is the 4th most productive player in the league.

Because there are two sides in basketball and both are equally important with defense is arguably more important. And Kevin Love doesn't know what defense means unlike those guys. He also doesn't know how to take over a game offensively unlike those guys you mentioned there. And he's also doesn't know how to lead his team. Once he learns all three of these and becomes elite, he'll easily be a top 3 player with the stats he has.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 11:28 PM
You think? I always felt like Wade was great with playing the lanes and as the weak side shot-blocker but never got the anchor vibe from him. I feel like he's capable of locking down his man, playing lanes and weak side shot blocking, but never felt like he could be the heart of a lock-down defense.

What am I missing? Maybe my definition is too rigid?
Maybe not an anchor but a definite strength, dont know where he ranks and whatnot but all those stl/blks count for something. He gambles more than Bron but I actually think that style compliments Brons positioning based style.

Wade has always been on good defensive teams, maybe if he were a SF like Bron he could anchor it to higher levels but hes definitely holding it down given his position.

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 11:34 PM
Maybe not an anchor but a definite strength, dont know where he ranks and whatnot but all those stl/blks count for something. He gambles more than Bron but I actually think that style compliments Brons positioning based style.

Wade has always been on good defensive teams, maybe if he were a SF like Bron he could anchor it to higher levels but hes definitely holding it down given his position.

I'd go as far as to say he's the best defensive SG in the league. Excellent help side D, ridiculous 1on1 D, great passing lanes. I'd say his only flaw is fighting through picks, but I'm not sure how you can accurately grade someone on that regard. Seriously though watching the last 4 years verse the Celtics where Wade would get screened while he's guarding Ray Allen made me hurt a lot of kittens.

Although that seems more like a team defense thing consider Miami has was very conservative in their recent years attempting to save up for the big 2010-2011 Free Agent bonanza.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 11:37 PM
Give me examples. I wanna hear.

Player with the best season post-Jordan

98-99 - Duncan
99-00 - Shaq
00-01 - Shaq
01-02 - Shaq
02-03 - Duncan
03-04 - Garnett
04-05 - Duncan
05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Duncan
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Lebron/Kobe, can go either way
09-10 - Kobe

Not all of those guys were always the most productive in the league.


If Drik doesn't impact the game as much as Wade or Howard does then how did Wade or Howard didn't have the best season since they both had better statistics as well. If statistic-wise Wade and Howard over Dirk and impact-wise Wade and Howard over Drik then how did Dirk had the best season?

Probably because I am just looking at what they did for their team last season more than anything. I said he had the best season, not the best overall player. It's a joke that you still cannot understand that.



Because there are two sides in basketball and both are equally important with defense is arguably more important. And Kevin Love doesn't know what defense means unlike those guys. And he also doesn't know how to take over a game offensively unlike those guys you mentioned there. And he's also doesn't know how to lead his team. Once he learns all three of these and becomes elite, he'll easily be a top 3 player with the stats he has.
Nope, He is already 4th most productive in the league therefore he is the 4th best player in the league. :rolleyes:

Fnom11
10-27-2011, 11:39 PM
Player with the best season post-Jordan

98-99 - Duncan
99-00 - Shaq
00-01 - Shaq
01-02 - Shaq
02-03 - Duncan
03-04 - Garnett
04-05 - Duncan
05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Duncan
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Lebron/Kobe, can go either way
09-10 - Kobe

Not all of those guys were always the most productive in the league.


Probably because I am just looking at what they did for their team last season more than anything. I said he had the best season, not the best overall player. It's a joke that you still cannot understand that.


Nope, He is already 4th most productive in the league therefore he is the 4th best player in the league. :rolleyes:

I may be wrong but didn't Lebron absolutely dominate those two seasons?

Chronz
10-27-2011, 11:47 PM
Interesting....

Lebron played 922 minutes in the 2011 playoffs and he was gassed right?

Because Wade played 959 minutes in the 2006 playoffs. How exactly did he do at the end of those playoffs? I could have sworn he completely ripped the Dallas Mavericks and their fans's heart apart.
The argument about Brons unique playoff load was covered in greater length than the post you quoted.
If my argument was based strictly on minutes then yes you would have a point. I know the segment you quoted states minutes specifically and maybe I misspoke but that was after I had laid down what a unique load Bron carried.


So Wade played about 37 more minutes more than Lebron did and Wade dominated the Mavericks and won the championship while Lebron flamed out and was looking for an inhaler? It looks like Wade was capable of withstanding those minutes and had those attributes at some point.


Yes, if only we lived in a world where Wade was carrying the 2-way burden against a defensive gauntlet. Sadly those minutes you speak of came with him having stoppers carrying a bigger defensive load (Both GP and Posey defended star scorers more than Wade), and the level of defensive intensity just to get to the Finals was steeper.

There is one similarity though, both times the Mavs were more concerned with focusing their scheme around another threat (Shaq/Bron). They had great success in limiting those players but the end result was that Wade took over. It resulted in 1 W and 1 L.


I'll make this a post and continue responding from here so you will have the time to think about that foolish statement you just made.
This isnt a phone conversation, you can take as long as you want to respond to my entire post. Its much more troublesome having to respond to each individual post.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 11:55 PM
I may be wrong but didn't Lebron absolutely dominate those two seasons?
Yeah he did, but Kobe easily had the better season than Lebron did in 2010. A lot of that has to do with how Lebron flamed out and quit on his team against the Celtics though. I have no problem giving it to Lebron in 2009 but that was personally my favorite season from Kobe.


Yes, if only we lived in a world where Wade was carrying the 2-way burden against a defensive gauntlet. Sadly those minutes you speak of came with him having stoppers carry a bigger defensive load. There is one similarity though, both times the Mavs were more concerned with focusing their scheme around another threat (Shaq/Bron). They had great success in limiting those players but the end result was that Wade took over. It resulted in 1 W and 1 L.
Actually I am pretty sure their game plan was Wade, at least eventually. The Mavericks eventually put the same defenders they had on Lebron on Wade. It didn't matter though because Wade still dominated them. Maybe at the beginning of the series it was Shaq and Lebron, but eventually it went on to Wade. In the 2011 NBA finals the Mavericks probably realized that they know Wade can't beat that team on his own so they just let Wade get his and stop everyone else including Lebron and Bosh.

You have a point although a weak one but your argument on how Wade was never the gameplan is weak and incorrect.

The Mavericks in 2006 just dared Wade to beat them with his jump shot and he did, which is why I always say that if Lebron and Wade were to have switched places in 2006, the Heat wouldn't have won.

If you are looking to watch dominate a playoff series where Wade received 100% focus of defensive attention then look no further than the 2010 playoffs where he dominated the Boston Celtics (best defensive team in the league), or do you believe that the Celtics game planned their defense on Jermaine O'Neal instead? :confused:

Wade vs. Boston in 2010 playoffs

33.2 ppg, 6.8 apg, 5.6 rpg, .564% FG, .632% eFG, .650% TS. Yeah I don't think he has much of an issue in anything.

naps
10-28-2011, 12:10 AM
Player with the best season post-Jordan

98-99 - Duncan
99-00 - Shaq
00-01 - Shaq
01-02 - Shaq
02-03 - Duncan
03-04 - Garnett
04-05 - Duncan
05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Duncan
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Lebron/Kobe, can go either way
09-10 - Kobe

Not all of those guys were always the most productive in the league.


You definitely didn't get them all right. I see you picked the champion guys except 2004 and 2008 just because pistons and Bostons didn't have a clear best player. Now I see why you think Dirk had the best season. If win the championship as the best player on your team = Best season. Good for you.
Even if I go by your list those players were leading at least on something whether it be actual stats or advanced unlike Dirk. Also, take a look at your list. What do you see? Yeah, all of them are terrific two way players unlike Dirk. So Drik clearly did not have the best season (Not in impact-wise, not statistical standpoint, not in historic standpoint).


Probably because I am just looking at what they did for their team last season more than anything. I said he had the best season, not the best overall player. It's a joke that you still cannot understand that.

Yes, what do you mean by best season except for winning the championship? You are having tough time to come up with a definition of season's best player. I am proving you wrong statistically, impact-wise, and historic standpoint.



Nope, He is already 4th most productive in the league therefore he is the 4th best player in the league. :rolleyes:


When did I rank a player in my top 5 just based on PER? You are just mad because you got no answer to my post. I already told you why Kevin Love doesn't make my top 14 or 15. Basketball is a complete game that includes offensive dominance, take over mentality, defensive elite-ness, leadership, etc etc. You need to improve you skills on judging a player. I am not the only person here saying that. 99% are on one page and you are on other.

Bruno
10-28-2011, 12:16 AM
Atleast Kwame has a big body and can finish a dunk(I think, can't remember watching him play much). Watching some 6'8" guy miss a wide open dunk is just heartbreaking. I know 5'8" white guys that can finish a dunk better.

haha, Kwame blew plenty a dunk as well. I'd consider him to be on Anthonys level in terms of being able to finish.



Maybe not an anchor but a definite strength, dont know where he ranks and whatnot but all those stl/blks count for something. He gambles more than Bron but I actually think that style compliments Brons positioning based style.

Wade has always been on good defensive teams, maybe if he were a SF like Bron he could anchor it to higher levels but hes definitely holding it down given his position.

Got ya. agreed.

PinnacleFlash
10-28-2011, 12:17 AM
You definitely didn't get them all right.
I'm pretty sure I did then again I saw a post somewhere made by you saying Lebron has been the best since 07 which is probably one of the most laughable statements I have ever heard.


Also, take a look at your list. What do you see? Yeah, all of them are terrific two way players unlike Dirk. So Drik clearly did not have the best season (Not in impact-wise, not statistical standpoint, not in historic standpoint).
That's a nice coincidence but that's not why they were considered the best that season.


Yes, what do you mean by best season except for winning the championship? You are having tough time to come up with a definition of season's best player. I am proving you wrong statistically, impact-wise, and historic standpoint.
You aren't proving anything wrong as a matter of fact you have done nothing in this argument other than ask me a bunch of questions that are dancing around the center of the argument. That probably has to do with the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about....as usual.


When did I rank a player in my top 5 just based on PER? You are just mad because you got no answer to my post. I already told you why Kevin Love doesn't make my top 14 or 15. Basketball is a complete game that includes offensive dominance, take over mentality, defensive elite-ness, leadership, etc etc. You need to improve you skills on judging a player. I am not the only person here saying that. 99% are on one page and you are on other.
Nope, because Kevin Love is more productive than Dirk Nowitzki he is better. I am proving you wrong statistically, impact-wise, and historic standpoint. :rolleyes:

naps
10-28-2011, 12:33 AM
[QUOTE=PinnacleFlash;19617892]I'm pretty sure I did then again I saw a post somewhere made by you saying Lebron has been the best since 07 which is probably one of the most laughable statements I have ever heard.


Yeah, right! You looked at championships and picked the best player from champion team for season's best player. What a Genius:rolleyes:



That's a nice coincidence but that's not why they were considered the best that season.

Now that I am going by your own list, it becomes a coincidence? Ever heard of defense? It's 50% of a game. Know it, underline it, memorize it for your good.


You aren't proving anything wrong as a matter of fact you have done nothing in this argument other than ask me a bunch of questions that are dancing around the center of the argument. That probably has to do with the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about....as usual.

I have seen your body of work. You have been rated as a 1st grader in basketball school by most people. Good luck on improvement. You are not the only one there. Keep faith in yourself.


Nope, because Kevin Love is more productive than Dirk Nowitzki he is better. I am proving you wrong statistically, impact-wise, and historic standpoint. :rolleyes:

No, Love doesn't lead, doesn't have the offensive game like Dirk, doesn't have the take over mentality. Stop being mad at me just because you are getting tangled up by your own rope.

PinnacleFlash
10-28-2011, 12:46 AM
Yeah, right! You looked at championships and picked the best player from champion team for season's best player. What a Genius
And its a better list than you could ever come up with.


Now that I am going by your own list, it becomes a coincidence? Ever heard of defense? It's 50% of a game. Know it, underline it, memorize it for your good.
No, it's more like it was a coincidence that my list had everybody play great D other than Dirk. I didn't do it on purpose it just happened to happen.


I have seen your body of work. You have been rated as a 1st grader in basketball school by most people. Good luck on improvement. You are not the only one there. Keep faith in yourself.
I have probably said more knowledgeable things in this thread alone than you have in your past 6+ months on this site.

The only poster to call me a 1st grader in basketball is Hawkeye, and hey guess what? Hawkeye is the only guy that is a bigger Lebron stan than you are. Coincidence? Obviously not right? :rolleyes: Maybe you should take a look at what other posters have said to me, specifically Knicksorbust or Bruno. You won't be able to find Bruno because he PMd me about how good of a poster I am, but you can ask him about it if you want. You might be able to stalk Knicksorbust post about me since you enjoy stalking my posts and my activity on this site.


No, Love doesn't lead, doesn't have the offensive game like Dirk, doesn't have the take over mentality. Stop being mad at me just because you are getting tangled up by your own rope.
It doesn't matter because Love is more productive, that's all that matters right? that is why Lebron is better than Wade, why bring up INTANGIBLES OR MENTALITY, talent and production is all that matters brah.

naps
10-28-2011, 01:14 AM
[QUOTE=PinnacleFlash;19618376]And its a better list than you could ever come up with.

Grow up.


No, it's more like it was a coincidence that my list had everybody play great D other than Dirk. I didn't do it on purpose it just happened to happen.

Or it indicates Dirk doesn't belong in that group. That group consists of the best players at that time and those players played both sides of the floor unlike ahem ahem Dirk.


I have probably said more knowledgeable things in this thread alone than you have in your past 6+ months on this site.

Yeah, that's why you are so confused that you go on random profiles and ask them who's better to make yourself feel better. Too bad most of them don't give you the answer you want.



The only poster to call me a 1st grader in basketball is Hawkeye, and hey guess what? Hawkeye is the only guy that is a bigger Lebron stan than you are. Coincidence? Obviously not right? :rolleyes: Maybe you should take a look at what other posters have said to me, specifically Knicksorbust or Bruno. You won't be able to find Bruno because he PMd me about how good of a poster I am, but you can ask him about it if you want. You might be able to stalk Knicksorbust post about me since you enjoy stalking my posts and my activity on this site.


Mature. You are probably a kid who wants Christmas on September.



It doesn't matter because Love is more productive, that's all that matters right? that is why Lebron is better than Wade, why bring up INTANGIBLES OR MENTALITY, talent and production is all that matters brah.

Except LeBron is a superior player in many aspects and a defensive monster. You probably don't understand what defense means. That's why you keep pulling for Driks and Loves. I am done arguing with you.

PinnacleFlash
10-28-2011, 01:26 AM
Or it indicates Dirk doesn't belong in that group. That group consists of the best players at that time and those players played both sides of the floor unlike ahem ahem Dirk.
No, I am pretty sure I am right and you are wrong.....as usual.


Yeah, that's why you are so confused that you go on random profiles and ask them who's better to make yourself feel better. Too bad most of them don't give you the answer you want.
The answer I want them to give me is Wade being a playoff performer and all but like 1 have told me that. But it's even better when people agree that he is the better overall player too.


Except LeBron is a superior player in many aspects and a defensive monster. You probably don't understand what defense means. That's why you keep pulling for Driks and Loves. I am done arguing with you.
superior player in many aspects, lol, then again you believe Lebron has been the best in 07, lets see how many people agree with you there. :laugh:

You are done arguing with me? When did you even start? But yeah you should leave since you do pretty much have nothing for me.

Bruno
10-28-2011, 01:27 AM
The only poster to call me a 1st grader in basketball is Hawkeye, and hey guess what? Hawkeye is the only guy that is a bigger Lebron stan than you are. Coincidence? Obviously not right? :rolleyes: Maybe you should take a look at what other posters have said to me, specifically Knicksorbust or Bruno. You won't be able to find Bruno because he PMd me about how good of a poster I am, but you can ask him about it if you want. You might be able to stalk Knicksorbust post about me since you enjoy stalking my posts and my activity on this site.


You're generalizing, p-flash.

Plus, who cares what I think ;)

PinnacleFlash
10-28-2011, 01:33 AM
You're generalizing, p-flash.

Plus, who cares what I think ;)

Well I was talking about when you said I wasn't trolling or riling people up. I am done with those days, so that is why I said that.



Regarding your basketball opinion, I think you're a fine poster and I agree with you on many topics.

When you aren't insulting other users, or causing drama, I think you're a good poster.


Your opinion matters to me. ;)

Hawkize31
10-28-2011, 02:42 AM
I didn't say he wasn't great or it took away his greatness, I said how could he be the #1 player in the league when he got outscored by a bench player in the NBA Finals. It said nothing that he wasn't a top notch player or one of the best in the league.

And how can Rose be a top 10 pg when he chucks it all game in the ECF and shoots 35%?

Your argument is literally nothing.

Sactown
10-28-2011, 03:07 AM
It's the damn NBA Finals. It matters more than any other series. And getting outplayed by some dude who never even made an allstar team shows if you really are the best in the league or not.

Well in the most important game of the series*game 6* The Jet out played Lebron, Wade, and Dirk! I guess the JET is the #1 player in the league :rolleyes:

LakersIn5
10-28-2011, 11:16 AM
It's the damn NBA Finals. It matters more than any other series. And getting outplayed by some dude who never even made an allstar team shows if you really are the best in the league or not.

says who? yes the finals might matter the most but 82 regular season games and 3 playoff series gives more insight on how good a player is.

LakersIn5
10-28-2011, 11:18 AM
Barely doesn't matter, you don't get outscored by someone coming off the bench in a series when you are 5th all time in playoff ppg.

well it happened last june.

LakersIn5
10-28-2011, 11:33 AM
Top 5 yes, best no.

but why? chalmers had better FG shooting % in the 4th quarter than rose :confused:

LakersIn5
10-28-2011, 11:36 AM
No Wade (proven winner) and Bosh.

also a proven loser without a great supporting cast.

big z-hickson-moon-WADE-mo will
i doubt that team to go anywhere near 60+ wins and 2nd round of the playoffs

JO-beasley-lebron-james jones-chalmers
it seems anything is possible as long as lebron is in your team?

LakersIn5
10-28-2011, 11:40 AM
first series the guy doesnt show up and hes the next lechoke james. . .

really :facepalm:. . .lebron has choked MULTIPLE TIMES he might be the best all around player but he is missing that fire determination and "clutch" that comes out in the best players when needed. look at kobe, dirk, wade

lebron choked the first time in his 4th season in the NBA FINALS
rose choked the first time in his 3rd season in the EC FINALS

rose choked earlier in his career with a better supporting cast. atleast lebron reached the finals.

naps
10-28-2011, 11:41 AM
but why? chalmers had better FG shooting % in the 4th quarter than rose :confused:

Oh, but Derrick Rose is a Bulls player, that logic doesn't apply for him, it's only for LeBron (Because I hate him since he didn't come to my team :cry:)

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Yes, I can. That's one series. It depends how you look at it. To me 100 games worth more than 7 games (I know those 7 games are important too but 100 games is too big of a sample to look at it, at least that's how I see it).



Not when it is the finals.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:13 PM
And how can Rose be a top 10 pg when he chucks it all game in the ECF and shoots 35%?

Your argument is literally nothing.

Lebron shot 35% in the Semifinals vs Boston in 2008 and the series still went 7 games.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:15 PM
says who? yes the finals might matter the most but 82 regular season games and 3 playoff series gives more insight on how good a player is.

Yes it gives insight, but if you play bad in the finals and lose with HCA you aren't the best player in the league.

PinnacleFlash
10-28-2011, 12:16 PM
Lebron shot 35% in the Semifinals vs Boston in 2008 and the series still went 7 games.
Oh no you exposed a bad series by Lebron, that has never happened before. :rolleyes:

SteBO
10-28-2011, 12:16 PM
Lebron shot 35% in the Semifinals vs Boston in 2008 and the series still went 7 games.
Shows you how good LBJ is, no?

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:23 PM
Shows you how good LBJ is, no?

Shows how good the cast was to go 7 games when he shot that bad. I mean they won 21 games fewer than the C's and your star shot 35% for the series.

SteBO
10-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Shows how good the cast was to go 7 games when he shot that bad. I mean they won 21 games fewer than the C's and your star shot 35% for the series.
You're looking at one stat though for the sake of supporting your own argument. :shrug: LBJ still carried that weak supporting cast to 7 games. There's no debating that.

naps
10-28-2011, 12:44 PM
Not when it is the finals.

Every playoff series is important. Without winning ECF, you can't make the Finals. Does that make ECF any less important? NO.

Chalmers had better shooting % than Rose in the 4th quarter of ECF. So you can't have Rose in your top 5. No double standards.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Every playoff series is important. Without winning ECF, you can't make the Finals. Does that make ECF any less important? NO.

Chalmers had better shooting % than Rose in the 4th quarter of ECF. So you can't have Rose in your top 5. No double standards.

Double Standards would be saying Rose is the best player in the league despite not playing well.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:53 PM
You're looking at one stat though for the sake of supporting your own argument. :shrug: LBJ still carried that weak supporting cast to 7 games. There's no debating that.

What!!!

Game 1 the Cavs had a chance to win Lebron goes 2-18
Game 2 is a blowout
Game 3 the Cavs win Lebron goes 5-16 for 31%
Game 4 the Cavs win Lebron goes 7-20 for 35%
Game 6 the Cavs win Lebron goes 9-23 for 39%

beliges
10-28-2011, 01:25 PM
Every playoff series is important. Without winning ECF, you can't make the Finals. Does that make ECF any less important? NO.

Chalmers had better shooting % than Rose in the 4th quarter of ECF. So you can't have Rose in your top 5. No double standards.

Every playoff series is important. Of course, you cant advance without winning first. But the more you advance, the tougher competition you face, the more pressure is put on each game and the more difficult it becomes to win. This is when the great players shine and carry their teams.

Hawkize31
10-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Lebron shot 35% in the Semifinals vs Boston in 2008 and the series still went 7 games.

That just proves your argument is bad. Players can have an off series and still be great. Derrick Rose had a pitiful ECF, but hes still one of the best players in the league. Lebron has had less success in the playoffs than he has in the regular season, hes still a great player.

ChicagoJ
10-28-2011, 03:05 PM
I think LeBron is the best player in the league right now. If you compare him to other great players historically he doesn't stack up the same, but right now he's the best of the current nba players.

What he needs more than anything is to lead his team to a few titles while still playing like he does. He will silence his critics then. And I don't know if an NBA player has ever had more critics than LeBron. But, he does deserve some of that.

beliges
10-28-2011, 03:30 PM
I think LeBron is the best player in the league right now. If you compare him to other great players historically he doesn't stack up the same, but right now he's the best of the current nba players.

What he needs more than anything is to lead his team to a few titles while still playing like he does. He will silence his critics then. And I don't know if an NBA player has ever had more critics than LeBron. But, he does deserve some of that.

Many have had it the same, some had it even worse. But the greats always quieted the critics by proving them all wrong and winning. Lebron is yet to do that. Until that occurs, he will have critics.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 05:36 PM
That just proves your argument is bad. Players can have an off series and still be great. Derrick Rose had a pitiful ECF, but hes still one of the best players in the league. Lebron has had less success in the playoffs than he has in the regular season, hes still a great player.

And where did I say he wasn't a great player? All I said is that he couldn't be #1 after his performance in the finals.

naps
10-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Double Standards would be saying Rose is the best player in the league despite not playing well.

What's the difference of #1 and let's say #2 or #5? By your logic you can shoot worse than chalmers in the 4th quarter of the conference finals which happens to be the most important series of your life, yet you can be inside the 2-5? But you can't be #1 if the second best player of a championship team outscores you by 0.6 points? Are you saying if LeBron scored 5 more points in the entire series he would be the best?




































Yeah, awesome logic....NOT :facepalm:

mdm692
10-28-2011, 10:20 PM
lebron choked the first time in his 4th season in the NBA FINALS
rose choked the first time in his 3rd season in the EC FINALS

rose choked earlier in his career with a better supporting cast. atleast lebron reached the finals.

so its the same because the only team lebron had to worry about is pistons and maybe the wizards back in 07. While rose has to worry about facing superstar stacked teams right. Heat(wade, bron, bosh) celtics(rondo, big 3) knicks(melo, amare, billups) hawks(crawford, jj, jsmoove, horford). Now who did lebron have as competition back then??

mdm692
10-28-2011, 10:23 PM
Cont. . .even some of the lower playoff teams(pacers, 76ers, magic) would make it all the way to ecf finals in the mid 07. . .heck even the finals

truther
10-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Cont. . .even some of the lower playoff teams(pacers, 76ers, magic) would make it all the way to ecf finals in the mid 07. . .heck even the finals

maybe magic but no way pacers would make it to the ecf, that was a 37 win team in a still relatively weak East they should of went to the lottery

Chronz
10-30-2011, 01:12 AM
Actually I am pretty sure their game plan was Wade, at least eventually.

Well Im pretty sure your banned, get at me if its not permanent and Ill respond.

Chronz
10-30-2011, 01:34 AM
What!!!

Game 1 the Cavs had a chance to win Lebron goes 2-18
Game 2 is a blowout
Game 3 the Cavs win Lebron goes 5-16 for 31%
Game 4 the Cavs win Lebron goes 7-20 for 35%
Game 6 the Cavs win Lebron goes 9-23 for 39%

LOL I may as well contribute to this thread since I bumped it.

Game 3: 117 Off.RTG (20.2 GameScore)
Game 4: 97 (Not good I know) (19.1 GS)
Game 5: 111 (22.4)
Game 6: 101 (21.6)
Game 7 which you conveniently ignore: 128 OFF.RTG, epic 42 Usage%. (32.8 GS)


I know 4 of those games in the series were subpar by Reg.Season standards, but against one of the best defenses of all time with very little around him, the #'s he posted are respectable, especially when you consider how he hounded Pierce, in fact his D on the eventual Finals MVP was a key reason the Cavs were able to push the Celtics to the limit. And it wasnt a pathetic 7 game series like the Atlanta one, Bron actually put his team in a position to win these games.

Its almost as if your making it seem like Brons teammates carried him or that he lost a series he should have won, hell if I didnt know any better I would think your comparing Brons performance this series to the one Pierce had vs Indiana when they were Elite Defensively. Remember that, Pierce was AWFUL he played the way Bron did in games 1 and 2 only for most of the series and without playing defense on the other end.

LakersIn5
10-30-2011, 01:37 AM
so its the same because the only team lebron had to worry about is pistons and maybe the wizards back in 07. While rose has to worry about facing superstar stacked teams right. Heat(wade, bron, bosh) celtics(rondo, big 3) knicks(melo, amare, billups) hawks(crawford, jj, jsmoove, horford). Now who did lebron have as competition back then??

CORRECTION ITS THE BULLS NOT ROSE, it should be
"While the bulls has to worry about facing superstar stacked teams right"
and it doesnt matter if the heat,celtics,knicks,hawks are stacked cuz in the end the bulls will just face 2 of those teams because only 1 of the heat,celticks and knicks has the chance of facing the bulls in the playoffs. lebron actually also has to worry about how to play with a weak supporting cast.