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JordansBulls
10-26-2011, 12:33 PM
Has Dwight surpassed Shaq as an Orlando Magic player?

RekeHavoc
10-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Has Dwight surpassed Shaq as an Orlando Magic player?

try posting some stats before making a thread like this next time pls

anyways, shaq, 4 years, 1 finals appearance

dwight 7 years, 1 finals appearance(due in large part to the injury of KG of the celtics)

id probably say they were even

but who really cares tho?

Rivera
10-26-2011, 12:40 PM
Absolutley not

Ripper Gein
10-26-2011, 12:40 PM
People tend to forget the past its a what have you done for me lately, Shaq was the most dominant player of his generation so no dwight hasnt passed shaq as an orlando player.

six
10-26-2011, 12:41 PM
Shaq has like 4 rings but Dwight has none, although this might be because Shaq had better teammates. Overall Shaq also has better stats, but Dwight's career is far from over. Maybe in the future Dwight will suppress Shaq but at the moment he hasn't.

zORi
10-26-2011, 12:46 PM
try posting some stats before making a thread like this next time pls

anyways, shaq, 4 years, 1 finals appearance

dwight 7 years, 1 finals appearance(due in large part to the injury of KG of the celtics)

id probably say they were even

but who really cares tho?

Dwight went to the Finals in his fifth year, though.

And he also didn't have anyone near the caliber of Penny Hardaway playing with him when he went. Hell, he doesn't even have someone as good as Nick Anderson, or Horace Grant.

zORi
10-26-2011, 12:46 PM
Shaq has like 4 rings but Dwight has none, although this might be because Shaq had better teammates. Overall Shaq also has better stats, but Dwight's career is far from over. Maybe in the future Dwight will suppress Shaq but at the moment he hasn't.

He meant just comparing their Orlando days.

JordansBulls
10-26-2011, 12:53 PM
Shaq has like 4 rings but Dwight has none, although this might be because Shaq had better teammates. Overall Shaq also has better stats, but Dwight's career is far from over. Maybe in the future Dwight will suppress Shaq but at the moment he hasn't.

Shaq only played 4 years in Orlando, how does he have 4 rings?

six
10-26-2011, 12:54 PM
He meant just comparing their Orlando days.

oh

six
10-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Shaq only played 4 years in Orlando, how does he have 4 rings?

Thought we were talking about their whole careers, my mistake.

Avenged
10-26-2011, 02:34 PM
Yes, definitely.

Dwight already has 1 Finals appearance, 3x defensive player of the year, 5x all-star, 4x all NBA 1st team as a Orlando Magic player. Shaq was really great early on in his career but he left too soon.

SteBO
10-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Yes, for sure.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 02:54 PM
I think so they had good players around him in orlando, including penny one of my favorite players when I was younger

Dade County
10-26-2011, 03:00 PM
Dwight went to the Finals in his fifth year, though.

And he also didn't have anyone near the caliber of Penny Hardaway playing with him when he went. Hell, he doesn't even have someone as good as Nick Anderson, or Horace Grant.


You mean the guy that missed 4 free throws in a row or was it 3 :laugh2:

I will never forget that :mad:

If shaq was in the league and was the same age as howard RIGHT NOW( how do I say this)

POSTER RISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

naps
10-26-2011, 03:14 PM
Certainly not in terms of dominance, but in terms of longevity yes.

Bruno
10-26-2011, 05:55 PM
try posting some stats before making a thread like this next time pls
want them spoon fed to you? Google them rather than complain, it's three clicks away.


dwight 7 years, 1 finals appearance(due in large part to the injury of KG of the celtics)

And Shaqs Magic got to the finals the year Jordan return as #45, playing 17 regular season games after taking off a year and a half. If you're gona astrix one, you gotta astrix the other.


but who really cares tho?

If you don't care then why bother posting? Spare us of the negativity.

RekeHavoc
10-26-2011, 05:57 PM
want them spoon fed to you? Google them rather than complain, it's three clicks away.

if you look at what he posted, he really just asked a questin and that was that, its kind of short for a thread imo



And Shaqs Magic got to the finals the year Jordan return as #45, playing 17 regular season games after taking off a year and a half. If you're gona astrix one, you gotta astrix the other.


true

If you don't care then why bother posting? Spare us of the negativity.


im not for this whole "lets compare shaq 2000 to player X 1965"

it gets old

Bruno
10-26-2011, 05:59 PM
im not for this whole "lets compare shaq 2000 to player X 1965"

it gets old

That's understandable and fair. But other people are, let them debate without bashing the idea of a discussion.

RekeHavoc
10-26-2011, 06:03 PM
That's understandable and fair. But other people are, let them debate without bashing the idea of a discussion.

i dont have a problem with that, but i guess after a while, it starts to piss me off

"tmac, what if he played with prime kg, prime player X and prime player Y"

"lets compare 1980 Team X to 1998 team Y"

"lets compare MJ's wizards to john walls wizards, who would win a series?"

gets old after a while, i like to keep things current, like comparing griffin to brand or something that is relatively current to when the players played for a specific team

Bruno
10-26-2011, 06:24 PM
i like to keep things current, like comparing griffin to brand or something that is relatively current to when the players played for a specific team

Nice. You should make those threads if you want to see that discussion. I'm sure it will get participation.

Hangtime
10-26-2011, 06:28 PM
I would say yes, considering Dwight hadn't played along side a top player of the league superstar candidate that Shaq played with in Penny Hardaway. Those two were the league's top tandem before Shaq/Kobe.

MagicBucsSox
10-26-2011, 06:53 PM
Certainly not in terms of dominance, but in terms of longevity yes.

I love the ball fan of today, shaq was dominant on offense but Dwight is on D by far with less quality talent and still gives u 20 Show me one shaq dPOY or a yr leading in rebs

Kleonidas
10-26-2011, 09:09 PM
As a lifelong Magic fan. I will always consider D12 the better of the two. Shaq has done nothing but bashed Orlando since he left.

LA_Raiders
10-26-2011, 10:18 PM
4yrs vs 7yrs?

I say yes....

7yrs without a championship, looks like time to move out...

Iggz53
10-26-2011, 10:22 PM
HELL no!

Raps08-09 Champ
10-26-2011, 10:26 PM
If they both played 4 years, I would have said no.

But Howard has 3 more years on Shaq. And in all 3, he got that finals appearance and those 3 DPOY awards.

So yea.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-26-2011, 10:28 PM
As a lifelong Magic fan. I will always consider D12 the better of the two. Shaq has done nothing but bashed Orlando since he left.

What if Howard does the same?

Kleonidas
10-26-2011, 10:46 PM
What if Howard does the same?

I was 14 When Shaq left. Nothing hurts as much as seeing your favorite player leave your team as a kid. D12 could say I'm coming back. Only to say sike, puck Orlando, and it wouldn't hurt as much as the summer of 96.

That being said, when he does leave, the NBA will be dead in Orlando and they will have the nicest circus location in the nation. Because that's all the new arena will be used for. That and a new minor league hockey team. yah

Wade>You
10-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Individual accolades aside, Shaq's done more for the Magic than D12.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-26-2011, 10:51 PM
I was 14 When Shaq left. Nothing hurts as much as seeing your favorite player leave your team as a kid. D12 could say I'm coming back. Only to say sike, puck Orlando, and it wouldn't hurt as much as the summer of 96.

That being said, when he does leave, the NBA will be dead in Orlando and they will have the nicest circus location in the nation. Because that's all the new arena will be used for. That and a new minor league hockey team. yah

But for you to say Howard will be better because of your feelings isn't really fair. :shrug:

That doesn't put one any better from thinking someone is not good because they don't like him. See Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Rose, etc...

zORi
10-26-2011, 11:07 PM
You mean the guy that missed 4 free throws in a row or was it 3 :laugh2:

I will never forget that :mad:

If shaq was in the league and was the same age as howard RIGHT NOW( how do I say this)

POSTER RISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Don't let 4 missed ft's fool you, Nick was a very good player.

And as I said, put him on the Magic right now, and he instantly becomes the second best player.

naps
10-26-2011, 11:13 PM
I love the ball fan of today, shaq was dominant on offense but Dwight is on D by far with less quality talent and still gives u 20 Show me one shaq dPOY or a yr leading in rebs

Really? Shaq competed with David Robinson, Dennis Rodman, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, Patric Ewing, Ben Wallace, Karl Malone etc. On the flip side, Dwight competed with Bogut, Knee-num, and ...? Dwight is great defensively but don't count on DPOY awards and judge based on them accordingly. You have to take the eras and level of competition into account. Shaq played in a totally different league. Just don't let the DPOY awards blind you.

Jay_Dub
10-26-2011, 11:28 PM
I love the ball fan of today, shaq was dominant on offense but Dwight is on D by far with less quality talent and still gives u 20 Show me one shaq dPOY or a yr leading in rebs

Okay let's look at the numbers ...

Dwight's last year (25 years old) was which was by far his best he averaged:

21.9ppg 14.4rpg 2.4bpg

Pretty beastly numbers. To put in in perspective. In Shaq's rookie year (20 years old) his numbers were:

23.4ppg 13.9ppg 3.5bpg


Saying Dwight is far better on D is just not true. He may be slightly better... but not that much. The most blocks Dwight averaged was 2.8, and if he played when Rodman played Dwight wouldn't have any years leading the league in rebounding either.

MagicBucsSox
10-26-2011, 11:28 PM
Really? Shaq competed with David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, Patric Ewing, Ben Wallace, Karl Malone etc. On the flip side, Dwight competed with Bogut, Knee-num, and ...? Dwight is great defensively but don't count on DPOY awards and judge based on them accordingly. You have to take the eras and level of competition into account. Shaq played in a totally different league. Just don't let the DPOY awards blind you.

If era matters then why are Russell and wilt praised? You slander DPOY but I bet u praise scoring titles. Dwights DPOYs are truly earned when the magic the last 4 yrs been a top 5 def AND NO ONE ELSE ON THE TEAM CAN PLAY DEFENSE. Your way of think would ruin Jordans legacy when the perimeter players of today are by far greater then those MJ faced, served

mdm692
10-26-2011, 11:30 PM
^^^Big men are weak now its all about agility and speed now you really dont see teams posting up players as often unless you have dwight. Most of todays post's ive seen turn into face ups then jumpers. Rarely do players have strength, foot work, speed, and agility all at once.

Bruno
10-26-2011, 11:32 PM
Really? Shaq competed with David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, Patric Ewing, Ben Wallace, Karl Malone etc. On the flip side, Dwight competed with Bogut, Knee-num, and ...? Dwight is great defensively but don't count on DPOY awards and judge based on them accordingly. You have to take the eras and level of competition into account. Shaq played in totally different league. Just don't let the DPOY awards blind you.

Not that anything you said is incorrect, but consider this:

Shaq:
'93- Defensive Win-shares: 6.0. Defensive Rating: 100
'94- Defensive Win-shares: 4.8. Defensive Rating: 102
'95- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 104
'96- Defensive Win-shares: 3.0. Defensive Rating: 103

Howard:
'05- Defensive Win-shares: 3.5. Defensive Rating: 104
'06- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 103
'07- Defensive Win-shares: 5.8. Defensive Rating: 99
'08- Defensive Win-shares: 6.4. Defensive Rating: 99
'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html


Maybe using DPOY to prop up Dwight in this argument isn't the most sound approach, considering context. But there's no denying that Dwight has surpassed Shaq as a defensive player when observing both their tenures with the Maigic.

Excluding Ben Wallaces peak defensive seasons of 2003/2004, Howards past three seasons has matched his other DPOY's. Dream also has two seasons that surpass Dwights peak material, by the numbers. As does Ewing.

Howards DPOY'(s) surpasses Mutombos, Malones and Mournings best defensive seasons on paper. Robinsons peak matches Howards peak.

MagicBucsSox
10-26-2011, 11:32 PM
Okay let's look at the numbers ...

Dwight's last year (25 years old) was which was by far his best he averaged:

21.9ppg 14.4rpg 2.4bpg

Pretty beastly numbers. To put in in perspective. In Shaq's rookie year (20 years old) his numbers were:

23.4ppg 13.9ppg 3.5bpg


Saying Dwight is far better on D is just not true. He may be slightly better... but not that much. The most blocks Dwight averaged was 2.8, and if he played when Rodman played Dwight wouldn't have any years leading the league in rebounding either.

To my next point Shaq also always had a top 5 perimeter player with him and the a PF. Always had others that helped on D, I dare you to challenge that

MagicBucsSox
10-26-2011, 11:35 PM
^^^Big men are weak now its all about agility and speed now you really dont see teams posting up players as often unless you have dwight. Most of todays post's ive seen turn into face ups then jumpers. Rarely do players have strength, foot work, speed, and agility all at once.

If yu gonna hold that against Dwight then hold the weak perimeter players Jordan faced against him, Kareem wilt n Russell were each other only comp so hold that vs them, like it's such a double standard with dwight

beasted86
10-26-2011, 11:42 PM
Not that anything you said is incorrect, but consider this:

Shaq:
'93- Defensive Win-shares: 6.0. Defensive Rating: 100
'94- Defensive Win-shares: 4.8. Defensive Rating: 102
'95- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 104
'96- Defensive Win-shares: 3.0. Defensive Rating: 103

Howard:
'05- Defensive Win-shares: 3.5. Defensive Rating: 104
'06- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 103
'07- Defensive Win-shares: 5.8. Defensive Rating: 99
'08- Defensive Win-shares: 6.4. Defensive Rating: 99
'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html


Maybe using DPOY to prop up Dwight in this argument isn't the most sound approach, considering context. But there's no denying that Dwight has surpassed Shaq as a defensive player when observing both their tenures with the Maigic.

Excluding Ben Wallaces peak defensive seasons of 2003/2004, Howards past three seasons has matched his other DPOY's. Dream also has two seasons that surpass Dwights peak material, by the numbers. As does Ewing.

Howards DPOY'(s) surpasses Mutombos, Malones and Mournings best defensive seasons on paper. Robinsons peak matches Howards peak.

Keep in mind Howard's competition and also the rule changes. The league has grown soft in general, and the dominant Center is dead in the current NBA.

ManRam
10-26-2011, 11:46 PM
He isn't as good as Shaq was, but because of longevity, he probably has. But it's very close.

Bruno
10-26-2011, 11:56 PM
Keep in mind Howard's competition and also the rule changes. The league has grown soft in general, and the dominant Center is dead in the current NBA.

It's a fine point that his competition at Center has been watered down. But stats tell us that regardless of the exodus of the NBA center, scoring league wide has remained the same.

League Average in points per 100 possessions:
2008- 107.5
2009- 108.3
2010- 107.6
2011- 107.3

1993- 108.0
1994- 106.3
1995- 108.3
1996- 107.3

He many not be facing up against HOFers at his own position, but scoring has remained the same, league wide regardless of a lack of dominant centers. He many not have to defend HOFers at his position, but with no hand-checking the role of the NBA center to protect the bucket from explosive wings and PGs has gone up exponentially. His duties and defensive role has shifted in the new era, but is still equally important, IMO.

An angle I'd accept is "because he doesn't face defensive monsters when he is trying to score, he saves more energy and can apply it on the defensive end", but that's really hard to quantify.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 12:13 AM
I'm not really sure what this question is asking.....

Are you asking was Dwight currently better than Shaq ever was when he was in Orlando? Cause if that is your question then answer is still no. Shaq in 94-95 was better than Dwight ever was and probably better than he ever will be. I'm not even sure if Dwight can change that because people will always give him crap for playing in a Center of weak eras.

If you are asking whether or not Dwight has currently accomplished more than Shaq did in Orlando i.e. greater player in the franchise, then the answer is yes. Dwight just did more for the franchise.


Dwight has currently accomplished more with Orlando than Shaq did when he was in Orlando, but Dwight was never a better player than Shaq was in Orlando (94-95).

beasted86
10-27-2011, 12:28 AM
It's a fine point that his competition at Center has been watered down. But stats tell us that regardless of the exodus of the NBA center, scoring league wide has remained the same.

League Average in points per 100 possessions:
2008- 107.5
2009- 108.3
2010- 107.6
2011- 107.3

1993- 108.0
1994- 106.3
1995- 108.3
1996- 107.3

He many not be facing up against HOFers at his own position, but scoring has remained the same, league wide regardless of a lack of dominant centers. He many not have to defend HOFers at his position, but with no hand-checking the role of the NBA center to protect the bucket from explosive wings and PGs has gone up exponentially. His duties and defensive role has shifted in the new era, but is still equally important, IMO.

An angle I'd accept is "because he doesn't face defensive monsters when he is trying to score, he saves more energy and can apply it on the defensive end", but that's really hard to quantify.

But at the end of the day all that really matters is it's more likely Howard couldn't do what Shaq did during the 90s, but Shaq could do what Howard does in today's league.

How many seasons did Alonzo Mourning post similar and/or better defensive ratings and win shares to what you listed for Dwight, and go home without all the DPOY awards like Howard has? Accolades and stats mean less when his competition is weaker. Not trying to discard Howard's accomplishments or say anything like that, but it's certainly not clear that Howard is in a different realm defensively than Shaq was in the beginning of his career.

naps
10-27-2011, 12:29 AM
Not that anything you said is incorrect, but consider this:

Shaq:
'93- Defensive Win-shares: 6.0. Defensive Rating: 100
'94- Defensive Win-shares: 4.8. Defensive Rating: 102
'95- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 104
'96- Defensive Win-shares: 3.0. Defensive Rating: 103

Howard:
'05- Defensive Win-shares: 3.5. Defensive Rating: 104
'06- Defensive Win-shares: 4.4. Defensive Rating: 103
'07- Defensive Win-shares: 5.8. Defensive Rating: 99
'08- Defensive Win-shares: 6.4. Defensive Rating: 99
'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html


Maybe using DPOY to prop up Dwight in this argument isn't the most sound approach, considering context. But there's no denying that Dwight has surpassed Shaq as a defensive player when observing both their tenures with the Maigic.

Excluding Ben Wallaces peak defensive seasons of 2003/2004, Howards past three seasons has matched his other DPOY's. Dream also has two seasons that surpass Dwights peak material, by the numbers. As does Ewing.

Howards DPOY'(s) surpasses Mutombos, Malones and Mournings best defensive seasons on paper. Robinsons peak matches Howards peak.


You really think he would have the same defensive stats if he were to match up against the likes of Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Mourning, or Malone? I mean what are the big-men in today's league who can match scoring abilities of those 90's bigs? By no means I am trying to deny Dwight's defensive dominance but competition really does matter and it matters a lot actually when you are comparing two close eras such 90's and 2000's since the game hasn't changed significantly. Dwight may be better than Shaq in terms of defense (if any). His 3 DPOY awards to Shaq's none doesn't give you the actual picture. This only shows Shaq was nowhere near Dwight in terms of defense which is a borderline crime to say.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 12:34 AM
But at the end of the day all that really matters is it's more likely Howard couldn't do what Shaq did during the 90s, but Shaq could do what Howard does in today's league.

What did Shaq do that Howard didn't, specifically? Are you refering to a specific accomplishment, or just generally speaking of Shaqs dominance?


How many seasons did Alonzo Mourning post similar and/or better defensive ratings and win shares to what you listed for Dwight, and go home without all the DPOY awards like Howard has?

Never. Even Zo's DPOY season of 1999 and 2000 don't touch Howards DPOYs, stastically

Howard:

'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

Zo:

'99- Defensive Win-shares: 3.9. Defensive Rating: 93
'00- Defensive Win-shares: 4.6. Defensive Rating: 96

Those are Zo's best defensive seasons. Advantage Howard, considerably.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mournal01.html

Bruno
10-27-2011, 12:38 AM
You really think he would have the same defensive stats if he were to match up against the likes of Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Mourning, or Malone? I mean what are the big-men in today's league who can match scoring abilities of those 90's bigs? By no means I am trying to deny Dwight's defensive dominance but competition really does matter and it matters a lot actually when you are comparing two close eras such 90's and 2000's since the game hasn't changed significantly. Dwight may be better than Shaq in terms of defense (if any). His 3 DPOY awards to Shaq's none doesn't give you the actual picture. This only shows Shaq was nowhere near Dwight in terms of defense which is a borderline crime to say.

I don't think it is. Shaq was a lazy and unmotivated defender until Jackson lit a fire under him in 99-00.

I kinda hit on your other question a few posts back. Despite the decline of the NBA center, scoring league wide today is nearly identical to the scoring averages from '93-'96. You also need to consider hand-checking; in theory it's easier for wings to get to the bucket, making Howards job as bucket enforces a bit more difficult in todays era.

I do understand what you're saying though. I don't think your point is unfair at all, I'm just playing devils advocate.

beasted86
10-27-2011, 12:39 AM
What did Shaq do that Howard didn't, specifically? Are you refering to a specific accomplishment, or just generally speaking of Shaqs dominance?



Never. Even Zo's DPOY season of 1999 and 2000 don't touch Howards DPOYs, stastically

Howard:

'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

Zo:

'99- Defensive Win-shares: 3.9. Defensive Rating: 93
'00- Defensive Win-shares: 4.6. Defensive Rating: 96

Those are Zo's best defensive seasons. Advantage Howard, considerably.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mournal01.html

Those were the years he won DPOY, but he had seasons where he posted higher DWS. That alone is telling how much weight should be held in some of these 'advanced defensive stat' categories anyway. I remember Michael Beasley being in the top 20 in the NBA in DRtg and DWS with the Heat.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 12:41 AM
Never. Even Zo's DPOY season of 1999 and 2000 don't touch Howards DPOYs, stastically

Howard:

'09- Defensive Win-shares: 7.6. Defensive Rating: 95
'10- Defensive Win-shares: 7.1. Defensive Rating: 95
'11- Defensive Win-shares: 7.7. Defensive Rating: 94.

Zo:

'99- Defensive Win-shares: 3.9. Defensive Rating: 93
'00- Defensive Win-shares: 4.6. Defensive Rating: 96

Those are Zo's best defensive seasons. Advantage Howard, considerably.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mournal01.html
I really would not use individual defensive win-shares or defensive rating to prove how Howard is a better defender. I also think Howard was a better defensive player than Alonzo but I would have used their Team Defensive Rating to show that instead of individual defensive rating and win shares.

I take win shares as a grain of salt. It is virtually useless to me actually. I would much rather know how much they impact their team's defense.

Team defensive rating shows you the type of impact those two players had for their team's defense. You can do this with defensive big man who were anchors but you can't do this with perimeter players like Wade, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

1998-1999 Heat - 8th in Defensive Rating
1999-2000 Heat - 7th in Defensive Rating

2008-2009 Magic - 1st in defensive rating
2009-2010 Magic - 3rd in defensive rating
2010-2011 Magic - 3rd in defensive rating


Dwight's perimeter defenders were not that good either and it was pretty much pathetic in '10-'11.

beasted86
10-27-2011, 12:43 AM
BTW, I'll go on record saying Howard hasn't reached peak Zo in terms of defense.... Heat fan or not. He's a better rebounder, but that's it.

beasted86
10-27-2011, 12:48 AM
I really would not use individual defensive win-shares or defensive rating to prove how Howard is a better defender. I also think Howard was a better defensive player than Alonzo but I would have used their Team Defensive Rating to show that instead of individual defensive rating and win shares.

I take win shares as a grain of salt. It is virtually useless to me actually. I would much rather know how much they impact their team's defense.

Team defensive rating shows you the type of impact those two players had for their team's defense. You can do this with defensive big man who were anchors but you can't do this with perimeter players like Wade, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

1998-1999 Heat - 8th in Defensive Rating
1999-2000 Heat - 7th in Defensive Rating

2008-2009 Magic - 1st in defensive rating
2009-2010 Magic - 3rd in defensive rating
2010-2011 Magic - 3rd in defensive rating


Dwight's perimeter defenders were not that good either and it was pretty much pathetic in '10-'11.
None of this means anything without posting the actual rating. Where they ranked in comparison to other teams at the time is irrelevant.

1999 Heat 98.9
2000 Heat 101.0

2009 Magic 101.9
2010 Magic 103.3
2011 Magic 101.8

So whatever point you were trying to make above, you didn't do a good job at.

naps
10-27-2011, 12:49 AM
I don't think it is. Shaq was a lazy and unmotivated defender until Jackson lit a fire under him in 99-00.

I kinda hit on your other question a few posts back. Despite the decline of the NBA center, scoring league wide today is nearly identical to the scoring averages from '93-'96. You also need to consider hand-checking; in theory it's easier for wings to get to the bucket, making Howards job as bucket enforces a bit more difficult in todays era.

I do understand what you're saying though. I don't think your point is unfair at all, I'm just playing devils advocate.

All good. Here's something that might surprise you as well about these DWS advanced stats. Hakeem led the league 4 years in a row in DWS category but never won the award those years. Same goes for Robinson, Rodman, and may be others (I didn't check all). Rodman won the title 2 years in a row but he was nowhere near the top DWS numbers. Mourning won the award even through Shaq had considerably better DWS. I mean there are plenty of examples out there. May be these advanced stats don't hold that much value in DPOY awards.

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 12:53 AM
None of this means anything without posting the actual rating. Where they ranked in comparison to other teams at the time is irrelevant.

1999 Heat 98.9
2000 Heat 101.0

2009 Magic 101.9
2010 Magic 103.3
2011 Magic 101.8

So whatever point you were trying to make above, you didn't do a good job at.
You are about as good as the time period you are in. It's the same reason why I don't give Bill Russell crap and all the other HOF 50s and 60s players for shooting like 45% back then. You want to know why? Because shooting 45% was actually considered above average back in the 50s and 60s. People would always shoot in the 40s or high 30s. Why penalize them? That was the average then and just because it changed overtime doesn't make them as less players.

By the way, I also consider rebounding to be defense and as you stated earlier, Howard was clearly a superior rebounder than Mourning was.

beasted86
10-27-2011, 01:13 AM
You are about as good as the time period you are in. It's the same reason why I don't give Bill Russell crap and all the other HOF 50s and 60s players for shooting like 45% back then. You want to know why? Because shooting 45% was actually considered above average back in the 50s and 60s. People would always shoot in the 40s or high 30s. Why penalize them? That was the average then and just because it changed overtime doesn't make them as less players.

That doesn't hold much ground because it's not like the Heat were an average or below average team. There isn't a 1:1 correlation with league ranking in comparison to how good the teams actually were defensively.


By the way, I also consider rebounding to be defense and as you stated earlier, Howard was clearly a superior rebounder than Mourning was.

Rebounding isn't that big a part of defense as long as the player is on par with the other premier players. Heat were consistently near the bottom of the league in pace and Mourning during his prime before the kidney ailment never averaged below 9.5 a game. Howard is a better rebounder though. But the extra few doesn't change my perception much. As an example, I think Kevin Love is a horrible defender, I don't care if he averages 20 RPG. If I need a stop, he's just as bad as Andrea Bargnani in my opinion who only gets 5 RPG. The rebounds don't mean that much in terms of real defense.

MagicBucsSox
10-27-2011, 02:23 AM
None of this means anything without posting the actual rating. Where they ranked in comparison to other teams at the time is irrelevant.

1999 Heat 98.9
2000 Heat 101.0

2009 Magic 101.9
2010 Magic 103.3
2011 Magic 101.8

So whatever point you were trying to make above, you didn't do a good job at.

Swag, a revis shut'em down post

Bruno
10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
All good. Here's something that might surprise you as well about these DWS advanced stats. Hakeem led the league 4 years in a row in DWS category but never won the award those years. Same goes for Robinson, Rodman, and may be others (I didn't check all). Rodman won the title 2 years in a row but he was nowhere near the top DWS numbers. Mourning won the award even through Shaq had considerably better DWS. I mean there are plenty of examples out there. May be these advanced stats don't hold that much value in DPOY awards.

Totally. I'm sure there are just as many examples of guys leading in DWS and not getting DPOY, as their are guys who led in DWS and still won the award.

strahan92osi72
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
No disrespect to Howard, but he's not a prime Shaq, nor is he really very close. Anybody who thinks yes has to be 18 years old and under.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Those were the years he won DPOY, but he had seasons where he posted higher DWS.

No, his DWS of 5.6 in 2000 is the highest of his career (DPOY winner in 2000).

His DPOY 1999 rate of 3.9 is surpassed by several other of his seasons, but you gotta remember that was the 50 game lock-out season. Context. You implant his '99 defensive averages into a 82 game season and it's on the same level as his career high 2000 numbers. His '97 figures equal his 2000, but didn't win DPOY.


That alone is telling how much weight should be held in some of these 'advanced defensive stat' categories anyway.

This doesn't allow for context either. Lets say he had other seasons where his individual defensive numbers were better than his DPOY years; maybe he didn't win the award because another player topped him, despite Zo putting out his best individual effort; maybe on a year when he won DPOY he wasn't challenged by the competition as much and could thus win the award during a season that wasn't his statical most dominant.

Plenty examples out there like that. How about Kobes 2008 regular season MVP? Not his best individual year, statically, but because of the context of what went on in the league, he won despite it not being his most dominant, even though other players had better numbers.

Not saying DWS directly leads to a guy winning the DPOY, only that it applied to a direct comparison to Dwight/ZO; Dwight had the better numbers, even on years when ZO won DPOY.

Bruno
10-27-2011, 05:00 PM
No disrespect to Howard, but he's not a prime Shaq, nor is he really very close. Anybody who thinks yes has to be 18 years old and under.

I'm not going to say that Howard is better than peak Orlando Shaq, but it's closer than you think man:

Shaquille '95- PER: 28.6, TS%: .588, WS: 14.0, WS/48: 0.230
Dwight 2011- PER: 26.0, TS%: .616, WS: 14.4, WS/48: 0.236

1995 was Shaqs last healthy season with ORL. If I used Shaqs numbers from '96 it would favor Dwight considerably.