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View Full Version : SI: Tmac talks about he has only had average teams (2009 article)



JordansBulls
10-25-2011, 11:23 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ian_thomsen/02/27/weekly.countdown/index.html




He smiled when asked if he ever found himself questioning what separated him from the champions of his era.
"I haven't been the guy who's been fortunate enough to play with Shaq, to play with Tim Duncan. I always seem to have average teams,'' he said. "You take me back in my Orlando days with Shaq? Come on, there are no questions. You take a healthy me and switch me out with Paul Pierce [on the current Celtics]? There's no question. There's definitely no question.''

I reminded McGrady of a previous conversation we had years ago, when Garnett was being criticized for his failure to win in the playoffs with Minnesota. "I remember that,'' McGrady said. Then he shifted our talk to Garnett's championship with the Celtics last season.

"I don't know if you remember this,'' McGrady said. "But when they won the championship, he had the hat like this [turned sideways] and he looked into the camera and he was like, What are you going to say now? That's what he said. That was about all that criticism that he was taking, and now he was letting everybody know: What are you going to say now? Because you can't say it now -- I'm the best, I'm on the best team in the league.''
Watching the Celtics celebrate on television after his arthroscopic surgery last spring, McGrady swallowed Garnett's message as if it were a personal greeting to him to not give up.

RekeHavoc
10-25-2011, 11:25 AM
this would be an interesting discussion if he ever managed to play a full 82 game season, but its a waste, even if he played with those guys, hes always on the sideline in a suit

Dade County
10-25-2011, 11:35 AM
This is what the fans want... Star players to stay no matter what, while their GM's back bad decision after decision.

KG should have like 3 rings man (he was great)... Boston had to form a big 3 just to get that man a ring, but the Minny fans would have went cray if KG would have left 3 to 4 years sooner.

This is insane people.

Da Knicks
10-25-2011, 11:44 AM
T-Mac was so good i would like the knicks to sign him for whatever the vet min is.

whitemamba33
10-25-2011, 01:34 PM
tears.

Man up and stop whining.

I lost all respect for him when I saw the game where he basically just played from half court and didn't take part in the offense. How can someone with so many injuries not cherish every moment he has on the court? You guys can talk about the "what if's" all day long, but i'm going to find it impossible to feel bad for the guy.

ink
10-25-2011, 01:39 PM
Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.

TheNumber37
10-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Imagine a prime Tmac with a Prime KG.

RekeHavoc
10-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Imagine a prime Tmac with a Prime KG.
or a prime MJ and a prime magic, prime bird, prime kareem, and a prime karl malone

ah how i love these fantasy situaitons that are soo old that there is no point in discussing

29$JerZ
10-25-2011, 02:31 PM
He wouldn't have been healthy enough to actually make an impact anyway on either team so its all just a what if dream.

RekeHavoc
10-25-2011, 02:37 PM
He wouldn't have been healthy enough to actually make an impact anyway on either team so its all just a what if dream.
exactly

GodsSon
10-25-2011, 03:11 PM
**** T-Mac.

That is all.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-25-2011, 03:18 PM
T-Mac was so good i would like the knicks to sign him for whatever the vet min is.

again? I guess, I wouldn't mind either... he played pretty efficiently in Detorit last season.

PhillyFaninLA
10-25-2011, 03:20 PM
T-Mac was so good i would like the knicks to sign him for whatever the vet min is.


As a Sixers fan at this point in his career I agree 100% I'd like the Knicks to sign him for whatever the vet min is.

Slimsim
10-25-2011, 03:21 PM
Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.

Surprise no one else pointed it out sooner

JamaicanYouth
10-25-2011, 03:22 PM
Hes right the team was him and Yao and a bunch of scrubs plus he happened to be in the much tougher west conference so that didn't make it any easier

Chronz
10-25-2011, 04:15 PM
this would be an interesting discussion if he ever managed to play a full 82 game season, but its a waste, even if he played with those guys, hes always on the sideline in a suit

Why 82? what do you mean always? Post makes no sense.

ttam68
10-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Why 82? what do you mean always? Post makes no sense.

He's saying TMac's injury prone. Come on, as a fellow TMac homer I thought you could do better than that.

beliges
10-25-2011, 04:44 PM
Ha! TMac was a very good player during the decade but he always came across guys better than him in the playoffs and thats why he never performed up to expectations. There are some players that are built for the regular season. BUt there are an elite few who take it up a notch during the post season. T Mac was not one of those elite few.

KB24Mamba
10-25-2011, 04:52 PM
TMac did take it up a notch in the playoffs he was just a one man show most of the time.....if TMac spent time during the offseason working on defense he could be a good addition on a vet min contract....I love TMac, but his athleticism isnt what it once was. He'll always be a decent shooter, but he has to understand at this point in his career he's going to be the 12th or 11th man on a contending team or be a decent addition on a bad team.

Hawkeye15
10-25-2011, 07:03 PM
Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.

yep. While he may be right on this subject, any respectful person wouldn't throw their teammates under the bus like that.

PlezPlayDKnicks
10-25-2011, 07:56 PM
Ha! TMac was a very good player during the decade but he always came across guys better than him in the playoffs and thats why he never performed up to expectations. There are some players that are built for the regular season. BUt there are an elite few who take it up a notch during the post season. T Mac was not one of those elite few.

Incorrect .. TMAC always showed up in the playoffs. He put up great numbers

LAKERMANIA
10-25-2011, 07:59 PM
He couldn't play a full ****ing season

Chronz
10-25-2011, 08:52 PM
He's saying TMac's injury prone. Come on, as a fellow TMac homer I thought you could do better than that.
If your a homer your an awful one, its obvious that hes attempting to portray Tmac in a negative light but hes not applying any context. Tmac was healthy enough to have a historic Peak run and a decent 8-9 year stretch. In other words, he wasnt Ralph Sampson in terms of bad luck with injuries. Therefore his statement makes no sense. Whats with the arbitrary mark of 82 games? More importantly a full season isnt a prerequisite for finishing a season strong so its completely irrelevant.


He wouldn't have been healthy enough to actually make an impact anyway on either team so its all just a what if dream.
Statements like this serve only to expose bias. So a player who the coaches found to make enough of an impact that they named him to MULTIPLE All-NBA Teams, the media thought he made enough of an impact to be an MVP candidate on several occasions. Yet its not possible for him to make an impact because you think he wont be healthy? Hes been healthy enough for some dominating playoff series, what do you have against that?


He couldn't play a full ****ing season

?? Read above





Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.
They are different sports tho. Put yourself in his shoes,, constant criticisms for something completely beyond his control.

Saying you never got to play with a TD/Shaq is not throwing your teammates under the bus, they would in all likelihood agree with him as Jon Barry once did when he called himself a bum that couldnt help him win.


yep. While he may be right on this subject, any respectful person wouldn't throw their teammates under the bus like that.
I dont consider someone telling me Im no HOF'er on par with Shaq/Duncan to be throwing me under the bus. If thats your standard for what a respectful individual does then NBA history looks pretty bad.


Ha! TMac was a very good player during the decade but he always came across guys better than him in the playoffs and thats why he never performed up to expectations. There are some players that are built for the regular season. BUt there are an elite few who take it up a notch during the post season. T Mac was not one of those elite few.
False, its a TEAM GAME. You have nothing to substantiate your claims.

ink
10-25-2011, 09:40 PM
They are different sports tho. Put yourself in his shoes,, constant criticisms for something completely beyond his control.

Saying you never got to play with a TD/Shaq is not throwing your teammates under the bus, they would in all likelihood agree with him as Jon Barry once did when he called himself a bum that couldnt help him win.

Maybe it's just cultural but this measure of who is good based on rings is ridiculous. I don't care if he never won or advanced past whatever point in the playoffs. It doesn't matter to me and I don't know why it matters to fans so much, let alone players. I actually can't believe that players give fan obsessions with rankings any time at all. I seriously can't.

But I absolutely don't think you would hear any star in another sport saying, "well I never got to play with (that superstar) and that's why I have never been a champion". That's just incredibly lame thinking. It's fan thinking as opposed to professional athlete thinking.

What I'm saying is that TMac should be above that. He should just play hard and tune out the white noise from the internet.

Ovratd1up
10-26-2011, 01:02 AM
Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.

Yes.

Ovratd1up
10-26-2011, 01:07 AM
Maybe it's just cultural but this measure of who is good based on rings is ridiculous. I don't care if he never won or advanced past whatever point in the playoffs. It doesn't matter to me and I don't know why it matters to fans so much, let alone players. I actually can't believe that players give fan obsessions with rankings any time at all. I seriously can't.

But I absolutely don't think you would hear any star in another sport saying, "well I never got to play with (that superstar) and that's why I have never been a champion". That's just incredibly lame thinking. It's fan thinking as opposed to professional athlete thinking.

What I'm saying is that TMac should be above that. He should just play hard and tune out the white noise from the internet.

I agree with this, and I do think that it's cultural. Those thinking he is justified are sucked in the same type of thinking

Chronz
10-26-2011, 01:45 AM
Definitely a cultural thing, Tmacs brutal honesty is something Ive always found refreshing. He doesnt hold anything back

CityofTreez
10-26-2011, 01:55 AM
I agree with him.

T-Mac was one of my favorite basketball players to watch, and I always rooted for him.

NBA-GMaster
10-26-2011, 02:09 AM
If only Tmac and Yao stayed healthy..

KingPosey
10-26-2011, 02:14 AM
Maybe it was a prick thing to say, but he wasnt lying really.

KingPosey
10-26-2011, 02:17 AM
Ha! TMac was a very good player during the decade but he always came across guys better than him in the playoffs and thats why he never performed up to expectations. There are some players that are built for the regular season. BUt there are an elite few who take it up a notch during the post season. T Mac was not one of those elite few.

I HATE when people say dumb **** like this. Go look up Tmac's playoff numbers, you might find 5 guys from the last 25 years with better numbers and thats about it.

ink
10-26-2011, 02:19 AM
Definitely a cultural thing, Tmacs brutal honesty is something Ive always found refreshing. He doesnt hold anything back

I would call it blaming, not honesty. In fact, blaming is the inability to be honest with oneself. It's OK to fall short, and it's even better to own your failings. Not everyone wins a championship. I'd find the player who owns his failings to be more admirable than the one who blames other people or blames circumstances.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 02:33 AM
I would call it blaming, not honesty. In fact, blaming is the inability to be honest with oneself. It's OK to fall short, and it's even better to own your failings. Not everyone wins a championship. I'd find the player who owns his failings to be more admirable than the one who blames other people or blames circumstances.
Then by your own definition its not blaming. Hes being completely and wholeheartedly honest to himself, and Im sure he believes every word he says. I believe him too, you may not but that doesnt mean hes not being honest with himself. And to be honest Tmac is the kind of guy to openly admit hes lost a step.

GodsSon
10-26-2011, 02:38 AM
Then by your own definition its not blaming. Hes being completely and wholeheartedly honest to himself, and Im sure he believes every word he says. I believe him too, you may not but that doesnt mean hes not being honest with himself. And to be honest Tmac is the kind of guy to openly admit hes lost a step.

That would be an understatement.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 02:40 AM
That would be an understatement.
LOL this was when he was still an All-Star, hes open about his abilities.

abe_froman
10-26-2011, 02:45 AM
kind of a prick thing to say.if true or not isnt the point,it just comes off as whining and throwing everyone under the bus for his failures(especially considering he famously said how "it was on him")

you also have to ask,who's fault was it? he could have stayed with vince but decided not to.could have decided to stick it out with dwight and wanted out instead.could have joined rose ,but decided to start making demands.

ink
10-26-2011, 02:52 AM
Then by your own definition its not blaming. Hes being completely and wholeheartedly honest to himself, and Im sure he believes every word he says. I believe him too, you may not but that doesnt mean hes not being honest with himself. And to be honest Tmac is the kind of guy to openly admit hes lost a step.

All I can say to TMac is that it's OK, you don't need to blame anyone. Not yourself, not anyone. Not everyone wins championships. Players need to be above fan concerns and just play their game. If they don't win, so be it.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 03:35 AM
I HATE when people say dumb **** like this. Go look up Tmac's playoff numbers, you might find 5 guys from the last 25 years with better numbers and thats about it.

His second round numbers are what I find to be the most impressive.

cbs134679
10-26-2011, 03:49 AM
His second round numbers are what I find to be the most impressive.

He stepped up in the playoffs but his teammates always regressed imo, kobe never got out the first round when shaq left until they brought in gasol and still had 2 all-star players in odom and bynum.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 04:52 AM
I HATE when people say dumb **** like this. Go look up Tmac's playoff numbers, you might find 5 guys from the last 25 years with better numbers and thats about it.

Its funny when ppl say he sucked in the playoffs, off the top of my head his avgs 28 ppg 8 rpg 7ast 1blk 1 stl

I also hate when ppl say the rockets were a great team when they had guys like wesley,barry,bowen,sura,alston, luther headless all starters at some point, when the rockets became a full team like 22 win streak yao got injured, when they got artest they all missed time but that team was full of good players

LeBroom
10-26-2011, 09:14 AM
T-Mac is one of the best players in NBA History. I truly believe that.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-26-2011, 10:03 AM
Those teams he was on had nothing basically outside Yao Ming.

JordansBulls
10-26-2011, 10:45 AM
Imagine a prime Tmac with a Prime KG.

Or had Duncan came to Orlando.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 12:30 PM
He stepped up in the playoffs but his teammates always regressed imo, kobe never got out the first round when shaq left until they brought in gasol and still had 2 all-star players in odom and bynum.

Do we not hold him to the same standards that we hold the other stars of the league? While individual performances are cherished among fans, is it not still the job of the leader to make everyone around him better? Saying he stepped up and everyone else stepped down is a cop out.

Besides, the fact that the Rockets made the second round WITHOUT TMAC, and then took the Lakers to 7 games in the second round kind of destroys your whole argument. In this case I guess I was wrong in my paragraph above. He DID make the players around him better that season...by sitting on the bench.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 12:47 PM
Do we not hold him to the same standards that we hold the other stars of the league? While individual performances are cherished among fans, is it not still the job of the leader to make everyone around him better? Saying he stepped up and everyone else stepped down is a cop out.

Besides, the fact that the Rockets made the second round WITHOUT TMAC, and then took the Lakers to 7 games in the second round kind of destroys your whole argument. In this case I guess I was wrong in my paragraph above. He DID make the players around him better that season...by sitting on the bench.

How so?

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 12:54 PM
How so?

I'm supposed to believe that the Rockets without TMAC were garbage, yet they go farther without him than with him?

Take Jordan off the Bulls, do they go further without him?

Take Kobe off the Lakers...same.

Lebron off Cleveland - well, you can see what happened when that went down.

Take McGrady off the Rockets...and they go further than he's ever been before?

Something is wrong there.

That particular season, the Rockets were 31-21 and were in danger of missing the playoffs. He left, and they went on a 16-4 run. The Rockets paid McGrady 20 million dollars to make their team worse that season. That's great.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 01:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjbkXewxlGI

20,000,000

I guess his eye isn't the only thing that is lazy.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
I'm supposed to believe that the Rockets without TMAC were garbage, yet they go farther without him than with him?
But your not comparing the same teams nor are you comparing the same Tmac. Tmac in his prime didnt have those teammates, Tmac in Houston didnt get those teammates until he was done as a Star performer nor did his teams play the same opposition, basically when your making an apples to oranges comparison as your doing here, you have to account for alot of variables.

Throughout his career with the Rockets, they couldnt win a game that Tmac didnt suit up for. We're suppose to ignore these moments that came closer in his prime and favor yours when he was done and the team had changed? WHY?


Take Jordan off the Bulls, do they go further without him?
No

Take Kobe off the Lakers...same.

Lebron off Cleveland - well, you can see what happened when that went down.

Take McGrady off the Rockets...and they go further than he's ever been before?

There was only 1 year where the Rockets were better off without Tmac and it came in a year where he was playing on 1 leg that needed microfracture surgery, why are we putting so much emphasis on this version and ignoring the much more significant ones? Had the Rockets had the Tmac in his prime, they too would have followed the same trend all of his other teams had, that they got better with him.


Something is wrong there.
Agreed, its this shoddy analysis.


That particular season, the Rockets were 31-21 and were in danger of missing the playoffs. He left, and they went on a 16-4 run. The Rockets paid McGrady 20 million dollars to make their team worse that season. That's great.

Yes that particular season with a debilitated/disgruntled Tmac. There was alot of drama that year, and Im willing to bet Im more informed of it that you are so if you wish to discuss it further Im willing but attempting to portray Tmac as a cancer who made teams worse is something you cannot accomplish. Even the Rockets GM who knows the situation you speak of full well would tell you that Tmac has made every OTHER team hes been on better.


So again I ask you, why are we focusing on that 1 year when he was playing hurt over the years when he was actually able to contribute?

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 02:27 PM
But your not comparing the same teams nor are you comparing the same Tmac. Tmac in his prime didnt have those teammates, Tmac in Houston didnt get those teammates until he was done as a Star performer nor did his teams play the same opposition, basically when your making an apples to oranges comparison as your doing here, you have to account for alot of variables.

Throughout his career with the Rockets, they couldnt win a game that Tmac didnt suit up for. We're suppose to ignore these moments that came closer in his prime and favor yours when he was done and the team had changed? WHY?


There was only 1 year where the Rockets were better off without Tmac and it came in a year where he was playing on 1 leg that needed microfracture surgery, why are we putting so much emphasis on this version and ignoring the much more significant ones? Had the Rockets had the Tmac in his prime, they too would have followed the same trend all of his other teams had, that they got better with him.


Agreed, its this shoddy analysis.


Yes that particular season with a debilitated/disgruntled Tmac. There was alot of drama that year, and Im willing to bet Im more informed of it that you are so if you wish to discuss it further Im willing but attempting to portray Tmac as a cancer who made teams worse is something you cannot accomplish. Even the Rockets GM who knows the situation you speak of full well would tell you that Tmac has made every OTHER team hes been on better.


So again I ask you, why are we focusing on that 1 year when he was playing hurt over the years when he was actually able to contribute?

You'd know better than I do...how many excuses did you just make for him there? I lost track at 7....so help a brother out. Didn't know "star" players needed so many excuses. My favorite one was "there was a lot of drama"....is he a high school girl or something?

I'm sorry, but if LeBron can drag Cleveland to the finals, Tracy McGrady should have been able to take at least ONE of his teams to the second round.

You bring up that he "wasn't healthy" and that he "wasn't in his prime"...these are all reasons why HE couldn't perform. They have NOTHING to do with him playing on "average teams". So perhaps he should have mentioned this in the article. Perhaps he should have mentioned the fact that he peaked at 23 years old and declined from there. His shooting percentage fell, his ppg fell, his 3 point percentage fell, his rpg fell, his PER fell....He wants to point fingers, you want to point fingers, but the guy didn't have a long enough prime to be successful. Had he stayed healthy, had he been able to maintain his "prime" into his late 20's, he would have found himself on a Rocket's roster that was capable of making some noise in the playoffs. That isn't the teams fault, that is HIS fault. And to point fingers at his team...that's not right.

The 2008-2009, the Rockets game him a team capable of making the second round. Who's fault is it that he couldn't be a part of it? It wasn't an "average team". He missed a significant number of games in almost all of his seasons with Houston....how the hell do you expect the roster to generate chemistry? How do you expect them to go from playing without a player who dominated the ball as much as he did, to having to change roles quickly when he comes back? He can point his finger at his teams if he wants, but that only means that there are 4 fingers pointing right back at him.

I would have respected him MUCH more if he came out and said "I would have had some great opportunities in my career if I had been able to stay healthy, but unfortunately I wasn't able to. We had a strong team in 2008-2009, I would have loved to help them out in the playoffs but I wasn't healthy. I would have loved to continue with the Rockets after that particular season to take them even further, but there were internal problems on the team and I didn't want to be part of it any longer".

ink
10-26-2011, 02:44 PM
I would have respected him MUCH more if he came out and said "I would have had some great opportunities in my career if I had been able to stay healthy, but unfortunately I wasn't able to. We had a strong team in 2008-2009, I would have loved to help them out in the playoffs but I wasn't healthy.

That would have shown the kind of character we see from athletes in other sports.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 02:48 PM
You'd know better than I do...how many excuses did you just make for him there? I lost track at 7....so help a brother out. Didn't know "star" players needed so many excuses. My favorite one was "there was a lot of drama"....is he a high school girl or something?

I'm sorry, but if LeBron can drag Cleveland to the finals, Tracy McGrady should have been able to take at least ONE of his teams to the second round.

You bring up that he "wasn't healthy" and that he "wasn't in his prime"...these are all reasons why HE couldn't perform. They have NOTHING to do with him playing on "average teams". So perhaps he should have mentioned this in the article. Perhaps he should have mentioned the fact that he peaked at 23 years old and declined from there. His shooting percentage fell, his ppg fell, his 3 point percentage fell, his rpg fell, his PER fell....He wants to point fingers, you want to point fingers, but the guy didn't have a long enough prime to be successful. Had he stayed healthy, had he been able to maintain his "prime" into his late 20's, he would have found himself on a Rocket's roster that was capable of making some noise in the playoffs. That isn't the teams fault, that is HIS fault. And to point fingers at his team...that's not right.

The 2008-2009, the Rockets game him a team capable of making the second round. Who's fault is it that he couldn't be a part of it? It wasn't an "average team". He just wasn't able to perform.

you really dont watch basketball, in orlando it was a running team and houston was not with yao the tempo was halfcourt all the time so if you actually watch bball u know teams that only play halfcourt dont score as much and its harder for scoring guards to score, but he still did avg over 22 ppg as a rocket,oh and his assist numbers went up.

As for the team that made the second round and the others your telling me scolandry wasnt better than juwan howard or aaron brooks and lowry arent better than sura and wesley, oh yeah and they had artest.

before you say he had the same team the year before in 07 your delusional, no artest,no yao,alston missed 2 games and as chronz said tmac already played 11 years in 08 where he was on 1 leg

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 03:07 PM
you really dont watch basketball, in orlando it was a running team and houston was not with yao the tempo was halfcourt all the time so if you actually watch bball u know teams that only play halfcourt dont score as much and its harder for scoring guards to score, but he still did avg over 22 ppg as a rocket,oh and his assist numbers went up.

As for the team that made the second round and the others your telling me scolandry wasnt better than juwan howard or aaron brooks and lowry arent better than sura and wesley, oh yeah and they had artest.

before you say he had the same team the year before in 07 your delusional, no artest,no yao,alston missed 2 games and as chronz said tmac already played 11 years in 08 where he was on 1 leg


unreadable.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 03:07 PM
Taking a look at the teams he's played for, I don't see how this guy can blame ANYBODY but himself:

He could have built something special in Toronto. He helped Vince turn them into a playoff team. The Raptors went to the Easter Conf. Finals the following year after Tracy left. IT WAS HIS DECISION NOT TO PLAY ON THIS TEAM.

He went to Orlando where he shined. He eventually butted heads with the upper staff in Orlando, which lead to him wanting out. He openly admitted that he didn't give 100% in practice. He got traded just as they brought in Dwight Howard. He would have had an opportunity to play with one of the great centers in the game, but for reasons that were partly his fault, he wasn't a part of that.

He went to Houston, where he missed more games than he played. When they were able to put a team around him in 2008-2009, he wasn't able to take part. Again, he had problems with the upper staff, and left the team.

I'm seeing THREE chances that he had to play on better than average teams, and he blew all three of them. And he has the nerve to come back years later and blame the teams? Come on now.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 04:01 PM
unreadable.

oh im sorry miss webster,
to your second post

toronto: The dude was 19 and wanted to play with grant hill(duncan rumored to go there too)

Orl: D howard was raw and he wanted to win, yao was a much better player and you cant predict howard would have been this good(even magic johnson doubted the guy), when tmac was in orlando hill was injured and his best teamates were armstrong and mike miller. The starting centers for orlando were allstars like steven hunter,declerq and ewing:rolleyes:

HOU: yes when the team finally became a team he got injured, but what about the other 6

Hawkeye15
10-26-2011, 04:03 PM
I dont consider someone telling me Im no HOF'er on par with Shaq/Duncan to be throwing me under the bus. If thats your standard for what a respectful individual does then NBA history looks pretty bad.


Its one of many man. He has made stupid statements over the course of his career. This is just another one. He needs to choose his words more carefully, as you can see by his reputation to the public.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:07 PM
Its one of many man. He has made stupid statements over the course of his career. This is just another one. He needs to choose his words more carefully, as you can see by his reputation to the public.

What you find stupid, I find refreshing and honest

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 04:13 PM
oh im sorry miss webster,
to your second post

toronto: The dude was 19 and wanted to play with grant hill(duncan rumored to go there too)

Orl: D howard was raw and he wanted to win, yao was a much better player and you cant predict howard would have been this good(even magic johnson doubted the guy), when tmac was in orlando hill was injured and his best teamates were armstrong and mike miller. The starting centers for orlando were allstars like steven hunter,declerq and ewing:rolleyes:

HOU: yes when the team finally became a team he got injured, but what about the other 6

All you did was prove my point.

He was 19 and wanted to play with Hill and maybe Duncan. That was HIS choice. He was on a solid team, and HE decided to leave and try elsewhere. That isn't the team's fault, that is HIS fault. So why is he pointing fingers?

He was still young and should have had a lot of good years left when Howard came into the league. It didn't take Howard long to become a beast either. He wasn't giving his full efforts in practice. He wasn't getting along with management. So why is he pointing fingers?

He was injured for a lot of the "other six" in Houston. Like I said, you can't expect the entire roster to go back and forth like that. Guys go from 2 shots a game when he's playing to 10 when he's not. I takes time to build a team that is capable of competing in the playoffs, and they were just starting to put it together when he crapped out on them.

He had opportunities. He didn't make the best decisions. But that is HIS fault. I find it a little bit unlikely that three different franchises failed him. I find it to be MUCH more likely that he failed three franchises.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 04:25 PM
I don't know what you guys are seeing...but I'm seeing a guy who left a playoff team, who feuded with management in Orlando, who feuded with management in Houston. Who's numbers peaked when he was 23 years old. Who missed a ton of games. Who gave partial effort in practice. Who shot unremarkable percentages during his time in Houston, including fg%, 3p%, and ft%. Who had remarkable talent at one point in his career, but was unable to maintain it during any meaningful length of time.

Who is now looking back on it all and looking for someone to blame it on.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:25 PM
You'd know better than I do...how many excuses did you just make for him there? I lost track at 7....so help a brother out.
If you lack the ability to accomplish simple task like counting then you definitely wont understand why they are relevant.


Didn't know "star" players needed so many excuses. My favorite one was "there was a lot of drama"....is he a high school girl or something?

Spoken like someone completely unaware to the circumstance. That you correlate drama to a female tendency only exposes your lack of maturity. There was a fall out with the Rox that wasnt entirely on Tracy, complications with the medical staff that ultimately led to a Doctor resigning and admitting his faults, you know REAL WORLD issues but you wouldnt know anything about that, being in high school and all.



I'm sorry, but if LeBron can drag Cleveland to the finals, Tracy McGrady should have been able to take at least ONE of his teams to the second round.

Im sorry but your simplistic analysis wont cut it here, your point would be valid if LeBron were some regular All-Star but hes a superior player to Tmac aside from a season or 2. Aside from that you have Kobe and MJ, both guys who have lost in the first round because of their teammates.
So if the GOAT and a guy like Kobe can lose in R.1 because of their teammates, why exactly am I condemning a lesser player for doing the same?
Tmacs teams always did better than they should have, thats all I can expect of any 1 player.


You bring up that he "wasn't healthy" and that he "wasn't in his prime"...these are all reasons why HE couldn't perform. They have NOTHING to do with him playing on "average teams". So perhaps he should have mentioned this in the article.
He did, you just lack the capacity to infer this information. He speaks about how you take him in his MAGIC DAYS and pair him THEN with Duncan/SHAQ then its game over. A logically sound person would be able to infer all that you complained about from that expression alone. Then he speaks of himself in his then lesser form on a team as stacked as the Celtics.



Perhaps he should have mentioned the fact that he peaked at 23 years old and declined from there. His shooting percentage fell, his ppg fell, his 3 point percentage fell, his rpg fell, his PER fell....He wants to point fingers, you want to point fingers, but the guy didn't have a long enough prime to be successful. Had he stayed healthy, had he been able to maintain his "prime" into his late 20's, he would have found himself on a Rocket's roster that was capable of making some noise in the playoffs. That isn't the teams fault, that is HIS fault. And to point fingers at his team...that's not right.

LOL, again speaking like someone who knows nothing about Tmac. Hes already admitted as much, when he was in Houston I believe it was his 2nd or 3rd year there and he said he had lost a step and that the injuries had taken a toll on his game. Your complaints against him do not make his words any less true, and unless you can explain how genetics are under his control hes not completely at fault for not staying at the top of his game.


The 2008-2009, the Rockets game him a team capable of making the second round. Who's fault is it that he couldn't be a part of it? It wasn't an "average team". He missed a significant number of in almost all of his seasons with Houston....how the hell do you expect the roster to generate chemistry? How do you expect them to go from playing without a player who dominated the ball as much as he did, to having to change roles quickly when he comes back? He can point his finger at his teams if he wants, but that only means that there are 4 fingers pointing right back at him.

LOL before I say anything please explain how Tmac is suppose to predict how the 08-09 season would play out when these words came before then?

No need to answer that because the most important issue is that nobody denies that team was good enough, sadly that was when Tmac was playing on 1 leg and was hoping for a full recovery after delaying surgery to play in the post season, sadly the complications to come mean further surgery was necessary.



I would have respected him MUCH more if he came out and said "I would have had some great opportunities in my career if I had been able to stay healthy, but unfortunately I wasn't able to. We had a strong team in 2008-2009, I would have loved to help them out in the playoffs but I wasn't healthy. I would have loved to continue with the Rockets after that particular season to take them even further, but there were internal problems on the team and I didn't want to be part of it any longer".

Thats totally up to you, I really dont care about what you find honorable, I only care about the claims you make on his career. If you want to hold it against him for being unable to sustain his PEAK and use that as the reason he couldnt get past the first round then thats your right, all I know is that given where Tmac was at throughout his All-Star prime, his teams have always exceeded their talent base. Thats all I care about

JordansBulls
10-26-2011, 04:30 PM
LOL before I say anything please explain how Tmac is suppose to predict how the 08-09 season would play out when these words came before then?




They came right after the trade deadline when Tmac shut it down. Article is 2/27/2009

Hawkeye15
10-26-2011, 04:31 PM
What you find stupid, I find refreshing and honest

While I agree with you to an extent, I simply don't think you need to speak your mind with no filter 100% of the time. We all know he never had the talent level Kobe or Duncan was fortunate enough to play with. He doesn't need to tell us, making it almost as if he is making excuses.

Sandman
10-26-2011, 04:33 PM
Is Tmac blaming all of his back injuries on carrying teams on his shoulders?

He's been hurt his whole career outside of 2-3 seasons in Orlando, when Grant Hill was hurt.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 04:34 PM
So your telling me a team with Hill and Duncan is worse than carter and antonio davis,
and in houston his 4 best years with them he missed 64 gms and yao missed 88 but yao gets none of the blame:confused:

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:35 PM
They came right after the trade deadline when Tmac shut it down. Article is 2/27/2009
Yes before being able to predict how the season would turn out. I mispoke but thats what I was trying to say. It was a minor point but one I found funny.

Ballah0liC1
10-26-2011, 04:36 PM
wow I just read the full thread and this is from 2 years ago why was this brought up again

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:36 PM
Taking a look at the teams he's played for, I don't see how this guy can blame ANYBODY but himself:
I look forward to this


He could have built something special in Toronto. He helped Vince turn them into a playoff team. The Raptors went to the Easter Conf. Finals the following year after Tracy left. IT WAS HIS DECISION NOT TO PLAY ON THIS TEAM.

Yes to go home and play alongside a SUPERIOR SUPERSTAR.


He went to Orlando where he shined. He eventually butted heads with the upper staff in Orlando, which lead to him wanting out. He openly admitted that he didn't give 100% in practice. He got traded just as they brought in Dwight Howard. He would have had an opportunity to play with one of the great centers in the game, but for reasons that were partly his fault, he wasn't a part of that.

LOL you mean the Hockey manager who quit the project before even seeing how it would play out. Tmac did what any superstar surrounded with crap and carrying the team for years would do, he demanded support and if it did not come he would OPT OUT, which was well in his right. When the new guy came on board he took it as a threat and the 2 sides went their separate ways. He wanted to play with Yao and build something without having to do it completely on his own, he got the chance to play with the best center in the NBA but he had problems of his own.

That you would even attempt to blame Tmac for not taking the risk on Dwight knowing he didnt have the time to wait for him to blossom speaks volumes about your bias


He went to Houston, where he missed more than he played. When they were able to put a team around him in 2008-2009, he wasn't able to take part. Again, he had problems with the upper staff, and left the team.

Yup, I have no problem admitting injuries ruined his chances that year.


I'm seeing THREE chances that he had to play on better than average teams, and he blew all three of them. And he has the nerve to come back years later and blame the teams? Come on now.

Except that your not going in chronological order, this tirade came before the Rockets proved that. More importantly he wasnt talking about THAT team, he was talking about his career as a whole, most importantly his career as a LEGIT All-NBA caliber Swing.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:38 PM
While I agree with you to an extent, I simply don't think you need to speak your mind with no filter 100% of the time. We all know he never had the talent level Kobe or Duncan was fortunate enough to play with. He doesn't need to tell us, making it almost as if he is making excuses.
Its a simple truth that escapes many, ink has a problem that Tmac cares at all about it, you have a problem that Tmac is so blatant about it. Of course hes making excuses but so long as they are valid they get their point across. You can think less of him as a person for admitting these truths. Thats about it

Chronz
10-26-2011, 04:40 PM
wow I just read the full thread and this is from 2 years ago why was this brought up again

JB was the OP, thats your answer

cbs134679
10-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Do we not hold him to the same standards that we hold the other stars of the league? While individual performances are cherished among fans, is it not still the job of the leader to make everyone around him better? Saying he stepped up and everyone else stepped down is a cop out.

Besides, the fact that the Rockets made the second round WITHOUT TMAC, and then took the Lakers to 7 games in the second round kind of destroys your whole argument. In this case I guess I was wrong in my paragraph above. He DID make the players around him better that season...by sitting on the bench.

Like they say the NBA is all about matchups, Rockets got a inexpirenced blazers team and had matchups in their favor for the first time.

2 quick point guards agianst steve blake... 2 defenisve players to throw at b.roy... and 2 traditional centers for yao to guard.

Before boozer and okur with the jazz and dirk and j.howard with the mavs caused major problems for yao defensively and no one else on that team could create for themselves offensively outside of t-mac.

Unfortunately for him the year rockets finally brought in more guys that could create in brooks,lowry, artest,wafer, lnadry, and scola t-mac needed micro fracture surgery.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:11 PM
If you lack the ability to accomplish simple task like counting then you definitely wont understand why they are relevant.


Spoken like someone completely unaware to the circumstance. That you correlate drama to a female tendency only exposes your lack of maturity. There was a fall out with the Rox that wasnt entirely on Tracy, complications with the medical staff that ultimately led to a Doctor resigning and admitting his faults, you know REAL WORLD issues but you wouldnt know anything about that, being in high school and all.



Im sorry but your simplistic analysis wont cut it here, your point would be valid if LeBron were some regular All-Star but hes a superior player to Tmac aside from a season or 2. Aside from that you have Kobe and MJ, both guys who have lost in the first round because of their teammates.
So if the GOAT and a guy like Kobe can lose in R.1 because of their teammates, why exactly am I condemning a lesser player for doing the same?
Tmacs teams always did better than they should have, thats all I can expect of any 1 player.


He did, you just lack the capacity to infer this information. He speaks about how you take him in his MAGIC DAYS and pair him THEN with Duncan/SHAQ then its game over. A logically sound person would be able to infer all that you complained about from that expression alone. Then he speaks of himself in his then lesser form on a team as stacked as the Celtics.



LOL, again speaking like someone who knows nothing about Tmac. Hes already admitted as much, when he was in Houston I believe it was his 2nd or 3rd year there and he said he had lost a step and that the injuries had taken a toll on his game. Your complaints against him do not make his words any less true, and unless you can explain how genetics are under his control hes not completely at fault for not staying at the top of his game.


LOL before I say anything please explain how Tmac is suppose to predict how the 08-09 season would play out when these words came before then?

No need to answer that because the most important issue is that nobody denies that team was good enough, sadly that was when Tmac was playing on 1 leg and was hoping for a full recovery after delaying surgery to play in the post season, sadly the complications to come mean further surgery was necessary.



Thats totally up to you, I really dont care about what you find honorable, I only care about the claims you make on his career. If you want to hold it against him for being unable to sustain his PEAK and use that as the reason he couldnt get past the first round then thats your right, all I know is that given where Tmac was at throughout his All-Star prime, his teams have always exceeded their talent base. Thats all I care about

Seven excuses was enough to give me an idea of where you are coming from. It tells me you have an unhealthy emotional bond with McGrady and it's enough to keep you from accepting EVEN FOR A SECOND that any of this was his fault. It tells me that you are going to focus on what was brought onto him instead of what he brought on to himself. It tells me that you are going to portray him as a victim, instead of someone who was difficult to get along with. I don't need to count the 8th excuse...I've already gotten your pattern down.

Sorry, but high school was the last time I remember encountering so much drama. Crying because he isn't the only star in Toronto. Crying because Orlando won't make the moves that he wants them to. Crying because Adelman isn't giving him enough playing time. Every player deals with their own set of issues throughout their career. It's how they deal with them that matters. If it is your opinion that refusing to play defense, refusing to take part in the team's offense, leaving the team on a road trip, not giving full effort in practice are acceptable ways of dealing with these issues, than that reveals quite a bit about yourself to me. I don't want any part of that.

If it is your opinion that TMAC NEVER played on a team capable of making it to the second round, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But EVEN in that unlikely scenario, he is at least partly to blame for that as well. He was on a playoff team in Toronto. But the time came where he had to decide between "winning" and "being the #1 on the team"....and he made his choice. But I guess that is the team's fault...right?

Lacking the capacity? I'm going to assume that you have some sort of mistake here, because what has been previously discussed and what you are saying with the "SHAQ/DUNCAN" response are completely different. You said that in the later Houston years, specifically 08/09, McGrady was playing through an injury (1 leg). I responded by saying that such an injury is why HE can't perform, and says nothing about the quality of the team that he was on, and that he should have mentioned this in the article. You quoted my response, and responded by telling me that he had mentioned that pairing him in his MAGIC DAYS with Duncan/Shaq would have been "game over". I'm sorry, but I don't equate that AT ALL with him accepting any kind of responsibility for failing the 08/09 team. Are you really trying to twist that into him accepting responsibility for letting down Houston? Actually, I shouldn't say "letting down"...they did much better without him.

What are you talking about? I never said that he's never admitted to losing a step, so why are you telling me that he has previously admitted to losing a step? I know very well that he's publicly said that. I'm not saying he never admitted it, I'm not saying he hasn't accepted it...i'm saying it's on him. It's on Tracy McGrady. It has nothing to do with the quality of team that he's on. The Rockets were putting a good team together during years where MOST superstars are still turning in impressive numbers. If he can't perform during those years, he can't blame the team. It's his fault. So for him to say he only played on average teams is ignoring the fact that if he was able to put out the kind of production that was expected from him, he would have been on an above average team.

You are missing the point completely. It's not about predicting the 08/09 season. But had he would have been able to play, he would have been on a good team. It's not their fault he wasn't able to play, it's his. So how the hell can he blame them?

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:18 PM
So your telling me a team with Hill and Duncan is worse than carter and antonio davis,
and in houston his 4 best years with them he missed 64 gms and yao missed 88 but yao gets none of the blame:confused:

When in the blue hell did I say that a team with Hill and Duncan is worse than Carter and Antonio Davis? Are you just making things up?

I'm not saying he didn't have a reason to take a chance and switch teams...just that he did. It was his decision to do that. He was fine where he was, but he wanted to try in Orlando. He left a playoff team for a team that MIGHT be a playoff team if things go as planned. He took a risk. The risk didn't pay off for him. But at the end of the day, the reason why he didn't play on an above average Toronto team IS HIS FAULT. So he needs to blame himself, not others.

lol Why in the blue hell would I be talking about Yao? This isn't a "BLAME ANY ROCKETS WHO HAVE EVER BEEN INJURED" thread. Yao isn't looking back on his career and criticizing the teams he played with. If you are looking for a difference, son, there it is.

Sandman
10-26-2011, 05:19 PM
But the time came where he had to decide between "winning" and "being the #1 on the team"....and he made his choice. But I guess that is the team's fault...right?

Tmac came to Orlando to play with Tim Duncan or Grant Hill I don't think it had anything to do with being the #1. You could argue that maybe he wanted to get out of VC's shadow, but those two guys are cousins and it probably had more to do with them playing the same position.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:21 PM
Its a simple truth that escapes many, ink has a problem that Tmac cares at all about it, you have a problem that Tmac is so blatant about it. Of course hes making excuses but so long as they are valid they get their point across. You can think less of him as a person for admitting these truths. Thats about it

No, I can think less of him for letting it define his career.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:28 PM
Tmac came to Orlando to play with Tim Duncan or Grant Hill I don't think it had anything to do with being the #1. You could argue that maybe he wanted to get out of VC's shadow, but those two guys are cousins and it probably had more to do with them playing the same position.

I disagree.

But regardless, it really doesn't matter. It was still a choice he made, and a choice that he should accept blame for.

Sandman
10-26-2011, 05:33 PM
I disagree.

But regardless, it really doesn't matter. It was still a choice he made, and a choice that he should accept blame for.

He pulled a LeBron 10 years before James made it trendy. He came here to join up with another superstar. Didn't work out with Hill, didn't work out with Yao, and ultimately it didn't work out with his back.

I don't think there's any scenario where Tmac is thinking "man, I shouldn't have left Toronto."

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:37 PM
He pulled a LeBron 10 years before James made it trendy. He came here to join up with another superstar. Didn't work out with Hill, didn't work out with Yao, and ultimately it didn't work out with his back.

I don't think there's any scenario where Tmac is thinking "man, I shouldn't have left Toronto."

That's fine. But at the end of the day, don't whine to the media about how you only got to play with average teams. Toronto went to the ECF the next year. If he really cares about winning as much as you think he does, why wouldn't he have remorse about passing on an opportunity that NEVER came up again in his career?

Doesn't add up.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 05:39 PM
No, I can think less of him for letting it define his career.
Dont even know what this means

Chronz
10-26-2011, 05:40 PM
I disagree.

But regardless, it really doesn't matter. It was still a choice he made, and a choice that he should accept blame for.
LOL you cant disagree with facts, he made the choice to play alongside a superior star.

Sandman
10-26-2011, 05:43 PM
That's fine. But at the end of the day, don't whine to the media about how you only got to play with average teams. Toronto went to the ECF the next year. If he really cares about winning as much as you think he does, why wouldn't he have remorse about passing on an opportunity that NEVER came up again in his career?

Doesn't add up.

Its definitely a statement you shouldn't hear from Tmac. Would probably make more sense if it came from Carter. TMac had some hard luck with Hill and Yao, but I would definitely call him a quitter for bailing on the Magic before Toronto. He was always about making excuses.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 05:46 PM
LOL you cant disagree with facts, he made the choice to play alongside a superior star.

LOL ...which is fine. He rolled the dice. He lost. His complaint shouldn't be that he hasn't played on above average teams, his complaint should be that he's made decisions in his career that haven't panned out the way he wanted them to.

See the difference? One way blaming other people, the other way is accepting responsibility.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2011, 05:55 PM
Its a simple truth that escapes many, ink has a problem that Tmac cares at all about it, you have a problem that Tmac is so blatant about it. Of course hes making excuses but so long as they are valid they get their point across. You can think less of him as a person for admitting these truths. Thats about it

oh I don't think of him as less of a person. Hell, there are many more stars who have said and done far worse things regarding their teammates.

I just think sometimes you let things rest. We all knew he never had a great roster. He doesn't have to remind us.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 06:08 PM
oh I don't think of him as less of a person. Hell, there are many more stars who have said and done far worse things regarding their teammates.

I just think sometimes you let things rest. We all knew he never had a great roster. He doesn't have to remind us.

I think he's just insecure about his legacy. He's not going to be mentioned with some of the guys who have rings, like Kobe and Duncan. And he's not going to be mentioned with some of the guys who haven't won rings, like Malone and Barkley....and I think he has come to regret that.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 06:08 PM
Seven excuses was enough to give me an idea of where you are coming from.
7 EXCUSES and ZERO rebuttals tells me all I need to know about your debating skill.


Sorry, but high school was the last time I remember encountering so much drama.
And here come the lies


Crying because he isn't the only star in Toronto. Crying because Orlando won't make the moves that he wants them to. Crying because Adelman isn't giving him enough playing time. Every player deals with their own set of issues throughout their career. It's how they deal with them that matters.
First of he never cried about that, he went to Orlando to JOIN UP with an even greater star. Dont mistake wanting to play at Home and away from Vince and Toronto the same as wanting to be the only star. Try using facts instead of opinions please.
Also thats why Tmac is so great, every team he every played for did better. The rest of the stuff you want to fault him for is nothing tons of superior and inferior superstars alike havent already done so I really dont care.


If it is your opinion that refusing to play defense, refusing to take part in the team's offense, leaving the team on a road trip, not giving full effort in practice are acceptable ways of dealing with these issues, than that reveals quite a bit about yourself to me. I don't want any part of that.

No its my opinion that your focusing on a speck of his career and extrapolating that to define an entire career. Tmac has carried teams for so long that his body paid the toll, that I put more stock into Tmac playing through injuries when it counts and raising his game on both ends come playoff time is natural. Im sorry you disagree but I cant change my values, I have them for a reason. Its much more important to focus on the totality of a players contributions/circumstance than it is to pigeonhole players to fit your bias based on selective evidence.



If it is your opinion that TMAC NEVER played on a team capable of making it to the second round, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But EVEN in that unlikely scenario, he is at least partly to blame for that as well. He was on a playoff team in Toronto. But the time came where he had to decide between "winning" and "being the #1 on the team"....and he made his choice. But I guess that is the team's fault...right?
LMFAO if your going to go through the trouble of bolding something you really should get your facts straight. LOL yea the idea of a young kid talking to a legit superstar and conjuring up images of the 2 playing together totally speaks to the mind of someone who doesnt care for winning.


Lacking the capacity? I'm going to assume that you have some sort of mistake here, because what has been previously discussed and what you are saying with the "SHAQ/DUNCAN" response are completely different. You said that in the later Houston years, specifically 08/09, McGrady was playing through an injury (1 leg). I responded by saying that such an injury is why HE can't perform, and says nothing about the quality of the team that he was on, and that he should have mentioned this in the article. You quoted my response, and responded by telling me that he had mentioned that pairing him in his MAGIC DAYS with Duncan/Shaq would have been "game over". I'm sorry, but I don't equate that AT ALL with him accepting any kind of responsibility for failing the 08/09 team. Are you really trying to twist that into him accepting responsibility for letting down Houston? Actually, I shouldn't say "letting down"...they did much better without him.

LOL still having trouble grasping the concept that time travel is impossible. Before I answer your questions I will ask you again, why are you speaking as if Tmac knows how the season ends up? Hes speaking about teams from the past not those yet to come.

As for your confusion I will clear it up. This was your OP:
You bring up that he "wasn't healthy" and that he "wasn't in his prime"...these are all reasons why HE couldn't perform. They have NOTHING to do with him playing on "average teams". So perhaps he should have mentioned this in the article.

First of all, I NEVER once used the word healthy in any of our arguments so your use of quotations is glaring.
Secondly, you were criticizing his comments about mediocre teams, something he was dead on about.



What are you talking about? I never said that he's never admitted to losing a step, so why are you telling me that he has previously admitted to losing a step?
Because you were riding on him for not mentioning something hes already mentioned in the past. Hes not going to write a book on the matter detailing every bit that gos into winning and losing, just because you dont know something about him.


I know very well that he's publicly said that. I'm not saying he never admitted it, I'm not saying he hasn't accepted it...i'm saying it's on him. It's on Tracy McGrady. It has nothing to do with the quality of team that he's on.
But it has everything to with the quality of the team and his genetics arent in his control so basically nothing you said was true.


The Rockets were putting a good team together during years where MOST superstars are still turning in impressive numbers. If he can't perform during those years, he can't blame the team. It's his fault.
This doesnt correlate at all, he performed during an age when defensive dominance was reaching historic levels, the time zone before HandChecking and after Zone Defense. The years you described are when he was in decline and unable to take advantage of those rule changes. Id love to see how its his fault that he was predisposed to Degenerative Disk Disease.


So for him to say he only played on average teams is ignoring the fact that if he was able to put out the kind of production that was expected from him, he would have been on an above average team.

Except that only a fool would expect Superstar production from an All-Star player, that was the case with Tmac in Houston before the support showed up. You have to temper your expecations based on what stage they are at in their careers. What your complaining about is the equivalent of me blaming KG for not being able to drop 20/10 on the regular anymore and thats why his team isnt winning.

Technically your logic is true, had KG been able to sustain his prime longer and perform at a superstar level the Celtics would win the title. Sadly this is completely irrelevant because of where that player is at in his career.

After his first year in Houston, Tmac was no longer a superstar caliber player. Once Artest showed up he wasnt even an All-Star player.



You are missing the point completely. It's not about predicting the 08/09 season. But had he would have been able to play, he would have been on a good team. It's not their fault he wasn't able to play, it's his. So how the hell can he blame them?

Your point is irrelevant because Tmac was voicing his opinion on teams of the past, not the future. Furthermore your example only speaks of Tmac on 1 leg and needing MF, so I couldnt care less what you make of it. Thats not the Tmac in question. Ill say it one more time for you, Tmac was a cancer that year, I will gladly concede that fact if you move on.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 06:09 PM
That's fine. But at the end of the day, don't whine to the media about how you only got to play with average teams. Toronto went to the ECF the next year. If he really cares about winning as much as you think he does, why wouldn't he have remorse about passing on an opportunity that NEVER came up again in his career?

Doesn't add up.

At the end of the day who are you to judge a man period? The answers to your questions are simple, your not the authority on how a man should express his concerns for winning.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 06:11 PM
oh I don't think of him as less of a person. Hell, there are many more stars who have said and done far worse things regarding their teammates.

I just think sometimes you let things rest. We all knew he never had a great roster. He doesn't have to remind us.
But your wrong, the entire population DOESNT know that, he has his detractors and this is his way of speaking to them in a brief manner. He could just let it rest, but thats not his personality and its what I find refreshing.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 06:23 PM
LOL ...which is fine. He rolled the dice. He lost. His complaint shouldn't be that he hasn't played on above average teams, his complaint should be that he's made decisions in his career that haven't panned out the way he wanted them to.

See the difference? One way blaming other people, the other way is accepting responsibility.
But he only played with Hill in Orlando so that leaves alot of the story left untold, Tmacs answer was short and concise, its what I liked about him, he doesnt feed you the company mantra and dragged on BS cliches that any robot could memorize. You guys appreciate that kind of candor but to me its sickening.

Either way hes right, either way hes telling the truth. Saying his teammates werent Duncan/Shaq isnt my idea of a stretch or insult, yes its blaming but its your opinion that hes wrong in how hes expressing those truths. One I dont care about, its the rest of your claims(lies) Im concerned with.

PinnacleFlash
10-26-2011, 06:28 PM
McGrady is simply a loser and yes it is that simple.

He played in the weak east and he still couldn't get out of the 1st round. He ended up getting traded to Houston to play with Yao Ming and he still couldn't get out of the 1st round. Most wing players would have gotten past the 1st round with Yao Ming as their Center. Yao was the 2nd best Center in the league to Shaq in 2005 and the very best Center in the league in 2007. What more do you seriously want? I know for a fact Kobe would have gotten past the 1st round in 2005 and 2007 with the Rockets, which is one reason why the Kobe-Tmac debate has always been a joke to me.

The only time the Rockets got past the 1st round was in 2009 when Tracy McGrady didn't even play.

I always laugh when people say stuff like Tmac should be above Pierce in the all-time list, because that is just an asinine statement. Paul Pierce would have taken the Rockets past the 1st round in both 2005 and 2007. 2007, no question, 2005, not 100% positive, but I believe so.

He is a perfect example of why you can't believe talent is everything.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 09:51 PM
7 EXCUSES and ZERO rebuttals tells me all I need to know about your debating skill.


And here come the lies


First of he never cried about that, he went to Orlando to JOIN UP with an even greater star. Dont mistake wanting to play at Home and away from Vince and Toronto the same as wanting to be the only star. Try using facts instead of opinions please.
Also thats why Tmac is so great, every team he every played for did better. The rest of the stuff you want to fault him for is nothing tons of superior and inferior superstars alike havent already done so I really dont care.


No its my opinion that your focusing on a speck of his career and extrapolating that to define an entire career. Tmac has carried teams for so long that his body paid the toll, that I put more stock into Tmac playing through injuries when it counts and raising his game on both ends come playoff time is natural. Im sorry you disagree but I cant change my values, I have them for a reason. Its much more important to focus on the totality of a players contributions/circumstance than it is to pigeonhole players to fit your bias based on selective evidence.



LMFAO if your going to go through the trouble of bolding something you really should get your facts straight. LOL yea the idea of a young kid talking to a legit superstar and conjuring up images of the 2 playing together totally speaks to the mind of someone who doesnt care for winning.


LOL still having trouble grasping the concept that time travel is impossible. Before I answer your questions I will ask you again, why are you speaking as if Tmac knows how the season ends up? Hes speaking about teams from the past not those yet to come.

As for your confusion I will clear it up. This was your OP:
You bring up that he "wasn't healthy" and that he "wasn't in his prime"...these are all reasons why HE couldn't perform. They have NOTHING to do with him playing on "average teams". So perhaps he should have mentioned this in the article.

First of all, I NEVER once used the word healthy in any of our arguments so your use of quotations is glaring.
Secondly, you were criticizing his comments about mediocre teams, something he was dead on about.



Because you were riding on him for not mentioning something hes already mentioned in the past. Hes not going to write a book on the matter detailing every bit that gos into winning and losing, just because you dont know something about him.


But it has everything to with the quality of the team and his genetics arent in his control so basically nothing you said was true.


This doesnt correlate at all, he performed during an age when defensive dominance was reaching historic levels, the time zone before HandChecking and after Zone Defense. The years you described are when he was in decline and unable to take advantage of those rule changes. Id love to see how its his fault that he was predisposed to Degenerative Disk Disease.


Except that only a fool would expect Superstar production from an All-Star player, that was the case with Tmac in Houston before the support showed up. You have to temper your expecations based on what stage they are at in their careers. What your complaining about is the equivalent of me blaming KG for not being able to drop 20/10 on the regular anymore and thats why his team isnt winning.

Technically your logic is true, had KG been able to sustain his prime longer and perform at a superstar level the Celtics would win the title. Sadly this is completely irrelevant because of where that player is at in his career.

After his first year in Houston, Tmac was no longer a superstar caliber player. Once Artest showed up he wasnt even an All-Star player.



Your point is irrelevant because Tmac was voicing his opinion on teams of the past, not the future. Furthermore your example only speaks of Tmac on 1 leg and needing MF, so I couldnt care less what you make of it. Thats not the Tmac in question. Ill say it one more time for you, Tmac was a cancer that year, I will gladly concede that fact if you move on.

7 excuses and you are still going strong....are you on his payroll?

Every team he played for did better? Toronto went farther without him the year after he left. Orlando never got farther in the playoffs than Toronto did, and then he was part of a 21 win team, and then we've already discussed how he crippled the team in Houston in 08/09 until he finally freed them. Before that, his shooting percentages in Houston are FAR from what superstar guards at the same position put up. This is all why TMAC is so great? LOL Try harder, kid.

How did I only focus on a speck of his career? I've covered Toronto, Orlando, and Houston. If your "point" in this entire discussion rests during his days playing for the Knicks and Pistons...you have a problem lol.

He was on a winning team...Toronto. He decided to leave. In my mind, once he's done that he loses his right to complain about the quality of the team's he's been on. You can't pass up chicken because you might get steak, and then complain that you are hungry later. It was his call, his decision...the fault goes on him and only him.

He doesn't need to time travel. I'm not saying he knew how things were going to work out...i'm not even blaming him for a lot of the decisions he made. But he made them. By chance, they didn't tend to work out for him. And that's fine...i don't count that alone against him. But now that we CAN look back, I can see that many of the things that he was at least partly responsible for cost him spots on what would become good teams. I'm not saying "TMAC SHOULD HAVE KNOWN HOWARD WOULD BE GREAT"...I'm saying "TMAC WAS PARTLY TO BLAME FOR HIS ORLANDO DEPARTURE, AND HE ENDED UP MISSING OUT ON A GREAT OPPORTUNITY". There is a big difference there. He can't go back in time, and he had no real way of knowing how things would turn out. But at the same time, there is nobody else to blame for this.

LOL Are you going to commit to that explanation on the Shaq/Duncan comment? You still haven't explained to me what playing with Shaq/Duncan has to do with me not liking that he's blaming his lack of success on his teams. If it's your wish to just drop this because there is no real connection, consider it wish granted. But please don't insult me by continuing to play games.

Yes his genetics aren't something he can control. But that just gives him less of a reason to pass blame on others. If he wasn't delivering on that team, how can he blame the team? By the way, what is with this "superstar" vs "allstar" comparison? Unless you are going to break out some facts outlining some sort of widely accepted distinction between the two, I suggest you tuck that argument back in your pants. You know better.

The difference in the KG comparison is that Boston knew what they were getting when the acquired him. They knew he wasn't someone they were going to build their future around. It was a quick shot at a championship, and they got that. Houston acquired TMAC at 23 or 24, and he was coming off a couple of amazing seasons. How is Houston supposed to be able to trade for McGrady and still keep a contending team together? Not a likely scenario. Obviously it was going to take some time....time that McGrady obviously didn't have. It just didn't work out. I don't believe that he can blame them for that. I don't believe that he can blame Orlando either, because his time was going to come. I sure as hell know he can't blame Toronto, because they were winning. In the end, whether it be genetics, his bad attitude, or his unlucky timing...it never worked out for him. No need to point fingers.

whitemamba33
10-26-2011, 09:55 PM
At the end of the day who are you to judge a man period? The answers to your questions are simple, your not the authority on how a man should express his concerns for winning.

This is a discussion board..isn't it? And you are just as bad for saying that he's right as I am for saying that he's wrong.

As a fan, it doesn't sit well with me when athletes pass blame instead of accepting it. If that is something you don't wish to hear my comment on, I don't know why you would spend so much time responding to it.

Regardless....I have nothing new to add here. I think we've covered all the bases. I'm sure I didn't change your opinion about anything and you surely didn't change mine. In fact, I kind of think less of him now because when I was looking at his Houston stats I never realized how bad of a shooter he was.

take care.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2011, 10:25 PM
But your wrong, the entire population DOESNT know that, he has his detractors and this is his way of speaking to them in a brief manner. He could just let it rest, but thats not his personality and its what I find refreshing.

fair enough. Anyone who knows **** about the NBA is aware of McGrady's roster support.
I am glad you find it refreshing. I assume you loved Barkley as well. I did. A man who speaks his mind and doesn't care what anyone thinks.

Chronz
10-26-2011, 10:50 PM
7 excuses and you are still going strong....are you on his payroll?
Of course its going strong, you have said nothing to prove otherwise.


Every team he played for did better? Toronto went farther without him the year after he left. Orlando never got farther in the playoffs than Toronto did, and then he was part of a 21 win team, and then we've already discussed how he crippled the team in Houston in 08/09 until he finally freed them. Before that, his shooting percentages in Houston are FAR from what superstar guards at the same position put up. This is all why TMAC is so great? LOL Try harder, kid.
I dont care for your crude analysis with no context involved. Ive already seen where this takes you, suffice it to say the mere fact that your attempting to capture Tmacs offensive efficiency on shooting %'s alone proves your statistical ineptitude. Tmac was an elite ball handler and playmaker, the fact that he could create a **** load of plays for himself and others while maintaining a lower turnover rate than most SG is what made him special. So yes this is why he was so great, dont speak on things you know nothing of.


How did I only focus on a speck of his career?
Because the only valid argument you have against him came in that 1 year.


I've covered Toronto, Orlando, and Houston.
False, as you have admitted already this was a lie. You lied about Toronto, you clearly dont understand a thing about what happened in Orlando and again the only complaint you have against him is his final days in Houston. Something as I have already mentioned was witnessed by Daryl Morey, a man who KNOWS the situation better than both of us who admits Tmac was always a player who made his teams better.


If your "point" in this entire discussion rests during his days playing for the Knicks and Pistons...you have a problem lol.

If you insist on lying and dodging my points then Ill put an end to this problem by not responding. If you wish to have an actual discussion then you should stop dismissing my points and actually tackle them.


He was on a winning team...Toronto. He decided to leave.
To play alongside a BETTER team AT HOME.


In my mind, once he's done that he loses his right to complain about the quality of the team's he's been on. You can't pass up chicken because you might get steak, and then complain that you are hungry later. It was his call, his decision...the fault goes on him and only him.

Thats up to you but could you explain how making the decision to join a better team is something he should be held against here?


He doesn't need to time travel. I'm not saying he knew how things were going to work out...i'm not even blaming him for a lot of the decisions he made. But he made them. By chance, they didn't tend to work out for him. And that's fine...i don't count that alone against him. But now that we CAN look back, I can see that many of the things that he was at least partly responsible for cost him spots on what would become good teams. I'm not saying "TMAC SHOULD HAVE KNOWN HOWARD WOULD BE GREAT"...I'm saying "TMAC WAS PARTLY TO BLAME FOR HIS ORLANDO DEPARTURE, AND HE ENDED UP MISSING OUT ON A GREAT OPPORTUNITY".
Ill stop you right there because your dead wrong, before I get to the fact that there is nothing bad about choosing to join a better team over a risky gamble, so if you choose to blame him for that neither he nor his fans would care. Its such a petty thing to cast blame on that I wont bicker on this matter. You can feel whatever you wish, Im only interested in the accusations you make of his ability and career. Still lets play your game;

Using HINDSIGHT this is what we KNOW to be TRUE:
Tmac only had 1 year of elite Star caliber player and that was his first year in Houston (2005), this was before he over worked his body in the offseason leading to his back spasms in 2006. After that he had 1 final year of legitimate All-NBA caliber play in 2007. After 2007 he still made an NBA 3rd Team and even garnered a few MVP votes but that was due to his team going on that 22 game winning streak, Tmac was still an All-Star caliber player that year who raised his game in the playoffs but he got way too much credit as an individual. In fact I have listed this season as one of the most overrated individual seasons of the 2K ERA in my blog post.

So from 2004-2010 Tmacs career looks like this
2004/05: Elite
2005/06: INJ
2006/07: Elite
2007/08: All-Star with poor D
2008/09: INJ
2009/10: INJ

Dwights career during that same span only
2004/05: Rookie, misses playoffs
2005/06: 2nd Year, decent growth misses playoffs.
2006/07: Makes his first All-Star Game and makes playoffs
2007/08: Wins his first Playoff Series, makes All-D 2nd Team.
2008/09: Wins his first DPOY and makes a run to the Finals

So where is this golden opportunity he missed out on? Had he stayed in Orlando he has his best year alongside a Rookie Dwight and possibly misses the playoffs, and given the load he would have continued to carry its possible he deteriorates physically at a faster rate.

If you ignore his injury plagued seasons and Dwights Rookie Season your left with 2007 (Point-Forward Tmac) and the All-Star but defensive liability in 2008.

The Magic sucked in 2007 and 2008 belonged to the Celtics so again, where is this golden opportunity? The year the Magic made the Finals Tmac required MF.


There is a big difference there. He can't go back in time, and he had no real way of knowing how things would turn out. But at the same time, there is nobody else to blame for this.

No matter how often you say this it wont come true. You cant blame someone for not predicting the future.


LOL Are you going to commit to that explanation on the Shaq/Duncan comment? You still haven't explained to me what playing with Shaq/Duncan has to do with me not liking that he's blaming his lack of success on his teams.
Because you have to understand the context to which hes blaming them. Hes not calling them garbage (though I know he has trashed Giricek before), hes simply saying a reason why he hasnt won was because he didnt have a Shaq/Duncan to play with. His teammates would not take offense to it yet you have, why? Anyways you can do what you always do and dismiss this point but thats why I brought it up.


If it's your wish to just drop this because there is no real connection, consider it wish granted. But please don't insult me by continuing to play .

Did you even read the article? I havent but I get the feeling you dont even understand it.


Yes his genetics aren't something he can control. But that just gives him less of a reason to pass blame on others. If he wasn't delivering on that team, how can he blame the team? By the way, what is with this "superstar" vs "allstar" comparison? Unless you are going to break out some facts outlining some sort of widely accepted distinction between the two, I suggest you tuck that argument back in your pants. You know better.

Gladly, its called a career curve. The general rule is that players have a development phase, a prime and a peak within that prime and then a declining phase. I wont delve into it completely but the basic idea is simple to even the casual fans. Look at KG now, hes past his prime, only a fool would expect him to play otherwise. Technically KG is still an All-Star but hes far removed from being a superstar. Thats what I speak of when I mention the different versions of Tmac.

He was a far different player in 2003 than he was in 2007 and beyond. If you wish to hold it against him for not being able to sustain his PEAK and use that as the reason why he didnt win then I will concede the point. Its one that I have shared before, had Tmac been the Tmac of old, those Rockets are contenders. Sadly by the time he had championship caliber support, Tmac ceased being a championship caliber superstar.


The difference in the KG comparison is that Boston knew what they were getting when the acquired him. They knew he wasn't someone they were going to build their future around. It was a quick shot at a championship, and they got that. Houston acquired TMAC at 23 or 24, and he was coming off a couple of amazing seasons. How is Houston supposed to be able to trade for McGrady and still keep a contending team together? Not a likely scenario. Obviously it was going to take some time....time that McGrady obviously didn't have. It just didn't work out. I don't believe that he can blame them for that. I don't believe that he can blame Orlando either, because his time was going to come. I sure as hell know he can't blame Toronto, because they were winning. In the end, whether it be genetics, his bad attitude, or his unlucky timing...it never worked out for him. No need to point fingers.
Your not the one getting fingers pointed at you so your take on this matter is completely irrelevant. If he feels the need to defend himself by stating facts then so be it, you can have a problem with him as an individual but you shouldnt blatantly lie or speak of things you know very little about.

Tmac KNEW he wasnt going to have much time, its not something he didnt hear prior to entering the league, he put in the effort to retain his core flexibility. Obviously both sides are hopeful but after his back spasms Houston was always building with the mindset of winning ASAP (Thus the Battier trade was born). Tmac was in the KG mode of his career much sooner than you realize. But if you have a problem with that comparison there are ENDLESS amounts. Players have different career curves but there are plenty of players with decent similarity scores.

whitemamba33
10-27-2011, 12:04 AM
Of course its going strong, you have said nothing to prove otherwise.


I dont care for your crude analysis with no context involved. Ive already seen where this takes you, suffice it to say the mere fact that your attempting to capture Tmacs offensive efficiency on shooting %'s alone proves your statistical ineptitude. Tmac was an elite ball handler and playmaker, the fact that he could create a **** load of plays for himself and others while maintaining a lower turnover rate than most SG is what made him special. So yes this is why he was so great, dont speak on things you know nothing of.


Because the only valid argument you have against him came in that 1 year.


False, as you have admitted already this was a lie. You lied about Toronto, you clearly dont understand a thing about what happened in Orlando and again the only complaint you have against him is his final days in Houston. Something as I have already mentioned was witnessed by Daryl Morey, a man who KNOWS the situation better than both of us who admits Tmac was always a player who made his teams better.


If you insist on lying and dodging my points then Ill put an end to this problem by not responding. If you wish to have an actual discussion then you should stop dismissing my points and actually tackle them.


To play alongside a BETTER team AT HOME.


Thats up to you but could you explain how making the decision to join a better team is something he should be held against here?


Ill stop you right there because your dead wrong, before I get to the fact that there is nothing bad about choosing to join a better team over a risky gamble, so if you choose to blame him for that neither he nor his fans would care. Its such a petty thing to cast blame on that I wont bicker on this matter. You can feel whatever you wish, Im only interested in the accusations you make of his ability and career. Still lets play your game;

Using HINDSIGHT this is what we KNOW to be TRUE:
Tmac only had 1 year of elite Star caliber player and that was his first year in Houston (2005), this was before he over worked his body in the offseason leading to his back spasms in 2006. After that he had 1 final year of legitimate All-NBA caliber play in 2007. After 2007 he still made an NBA 3rd Team and even garnered a few MVP votes but that was due to his team going on that 22 game winning streak, Tmac was still an All-Star caliber player that year who raised his game in the playoffs but he got way too much credit as an individual. In fact I have listed this season as one of the most overrated individual seasons of the 2K ERA in my blog post.

So from 2004-2010 Tmacs career looks like this
2004/05: Elite
2005/06: INJ
2006/07: Elite
2007/08: All-Star with poor D
2008/09: INJ
2009/10: INJ

Dwights career during that same span only
2004/05: Rookie, misses playoffs
2005/06: 2nd Year, decent growth misses playoffs.
2006/07: Makes his first All-Star Game and makes playoffs
2007/08: Wins his first Playoff Series, makes All-D 2nd Team.
2008/09: Wins his first DPOY and makes a run to the Finals

So where is this golden opportunity he missed out on? Had he stayed in Orlando he has his best year alongside a Rookie Dwight and possibly misses the playoffs, and given the load he would have continued to carry its possible he deteriorates physically at a faster rate.

If you ignore his injury plagued seasons and Dwights Rookie Season your left with 2007 (Point-Forward Tmac) and the All-Star but defensive liability in 2008.

The Magic sucked in 2007 and 2008 belonged to the Celtics so again, where is this golden opportunity? The year the Magic made the Finals Tmac required MF.


No matter how often you say this it wont come true. You cant blame someone for not predicting the future.


Because you have to understand the context to which hes blaming them. Hes not calling them garbage (though I know he has trashed Giricek before), hes simply saying a reason why he hasnt won was because he didnt have a Shaq/Duncan to play with. His teammates would not take offense to it yet you have, why? Anyways you can do what you always do and dismiss this point but thats why I brought it up.


Did you even read the article? I havent but I get the feeling you dont even understand it.


Gladly, its called a career curve. The general rule is that players have a development phase, a prime and a peak within that prime and then a declining phase. I wont delve into it completely but the basic idea is simple to even the casual fans. Look at KG now, hes past his prime, only a fool would expect him to play otherwise. Technically KG is still an All-Star but hes far removed from being a superstar. Thats what I speak of when I mention the different versions of Tmac.

He was a far different player in 2003 than he was in 2007 and beyond. If you wish to hold it against him for not being able to sustain his PEAK and use that as the reason why he didnt win then I will concede the point. Its one that I have shared before, had Tmac been the Tmac of old, those Rockets are contenders. Sadly by the time he had championship caliber support, Tmac ceased being a championship caliber superstar.


Your not the one getting fingers pointed at you so your take on this matter is completely irrelevant. If he feels the need to defend himself by stating facts then so be it, you can have a problem with him as an individual but you shouldnt blatantly lie or speak of things you know very little about.

Tmac KNEW he wasnt going to have much time, its not something he didnt hear prior to entering the league, he put in the effort to retain his core flexibility. Obviously both sides are hopeful but after his back spasms Houston was always building with the mindset of winning ASAP (Thus the Battier trade was born). Tmac was in the KG mode of his career much sooner than you realize. But if you have a problem with that comparison there are ENDLESS amounts. Players have different career curves but there are plenty of players with decent similarity scores.

That's cool. No progress being made on either side, so I'll end it here.

Take care.

JordansBulls
10-27-2011, 03:38 PM
I agree if would take till 2008 for Mcgrady to had been able to compete with Orlando with Dwight on the team.

ink
10-27-2011, 05:23 PM
Are you guys the patron saints of lost causes? Why the obsession with shoring up TMac's reputation? Who really cares about TMac? He's made his money and he accomplished what he could with the skills he had, the teams he had, and the injuries he had. Time to let it rest.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 07:56 PM
Are you guys the patron saints of lost causes? Why the obsession with shoring up TMac's reputation? Who really cares about TMac? He's made his money and he accomplished what he could with the skills he had, the teams he had, and the injuries he had. Time to let it rest.
Over time falsified statements can become cliche and repeated by those not in the know. Things like he left Toronto to become the man, even though he was thinking of joining up with Hill prior to the seasons end have become staples for Tmac basher. Thats ignoring his nonsensical statistical projections, the notion that Tmac missed a golden opportunity in Orlando, that he should be punished for not being blessed with the knowledge of foresight is ridiculous on its own, but to expose yourself as someone lacking the ability to project accurately GIVEN the advantage of hindsight is a level of hatred reserved for the biggest Tmac bashers.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 08:04 PM
I agree if would take till 2008 for Mcgrady to had been able to compete with Orlando with Dwight on the team.
Yup, by then Tmac was unable to carry a team for the regular season but the Magic could make it to the postseason without him, unlike in the West.

I actually think he fits the Hedo role pretty well on that team, hes a natural Point Forward and even though his defense sucked all year, he played more inspired on that end come the post season. I remember him just swatting Harping and AK, which after the lackluster effort he showed all year was pretty alarming. He cant be any worse defensively than Hedo.

The team around them would be much different with Tmac (No Rashard, possibly no Hedo) but even if management surrounded them with quality pieces there is no way a team headlined by those 2 is getting past the Celtics or Lakers of that year.

smith&wesson
10-27-2011, 08:15 PM
im sorry this guy is full of crap.

tmac started his career on a team with vince carter. both would have been in theyre prime and could have played all of theyre careers together. but tmac wanted to be a star so he went to orlando. fail

didnt tmac play with yao ming ? didnt they have that team that won like 22 games in a row ? oh ya but you never could stay healthy to help them win. fail.

its not his fault he was injured soo much, but how can he say he didnt win a title cuz he didnt play with the right players ? him and carter in theyre prime would have been deadly together. but again they both ended up being injury prone and it still wouldnt have made a difference.

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2011, 09:13 PM
im sorry this guy is full of crap.

tmac started his career on a team with vince carter. both would have been in theyre prime and could have played all of theyre careers together. but tmac wanted to be a star so he went to orlando. fail

didnt tmac play with yao ming ? didnt they have that team that won like 22 games in a row ? oh ya but you never could stay healthy to help them win. fail.

tmac leaving tor had nothing to do with being the man if u read chronz or my post you would understand


yes he was part of the 22 win streak,but did you see the playoff starters Bjackson(6 yrs past prime and alston missed 2 games),tmac,battier, scola, deke(56 yrs old)
bench- hayes, brooks(not playing major min), mike harris(who?),and luther headless so do u see a good team cause I dont

ink
10-27-2011, 09:24 PM
Over time falsified statements can become cliche and repeated by those not in the know. Things like he left Toronto to become the man, even though he was thinking of joining up with Hill prior to the seasons end have become staples for Tmac basher. Thats ignoring his nonsensical statistical projections, the notion that Tmac missed a golden opportunity in Orlando, that he should be punished for not being blessed with the knowledge of foresight is ridiculous on its own, but to expose yourself as someone lacking the ability to project accurately GIVEN the advantage of hindsight is a level of hatred reserved for the biggest Tmac bashers.

IMHO it wasn't worth the endless posts of opinion disguised as facts. The point is I don't think you can quantify success or failure. TMac's career, in the long run, didn't measure up. Some will say it was his attitude, some will say it was his injuries, some will excuse him because he didn't "play with any HOFers". I didn't think the guy was bashing TMac, but like S&W above, I also saw a very egocentric TMac leave Toronto. The bigger they are (in their own minds especially) the harder they fall. Maybe there is something to the statement that he brought it on himself.

ShakeN'Bake
10-27-2011, 09:36 PM
All I can say to TMac is that it's OK, you don't need to blame anyone. Not yourself, not anyone. Not everyone wins championships. Players need to be above fan concerns and just play their game. If they don't win, so be it.

So you want players who don't care if they win?

PinnacleFlash
10-27-2011, 09:37 PM
So you want players who don't care if they win?

He is saying he doesn't want players having fan boy imaginations and throwing their teammates under the bus.

whitemamba33
10-27-2011, 09:38 PM
Strictly out of curiosity...are their quotes from Tmac himself explaining why he left Toronto? I can't seem to find any.

Shick
10-27-2011, 09:45 PM
Love how some players get away with throwing all their teammates under the bus. No one would get away with saying what TMac said there in any other sport. Imagine Dan Marino saying "if only they had traded me to a contender I would have won a Super Bowl". It would never happen and we know it. Only in an ego-driven league like basketball. Sad statement about the character of the players.

Good statement, but he has to say something and it's true, he couldn't carry his bummy *** teams the the finals.

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2011, 10:01 PM
strange double post

Chronz
10-27-2011, 11:13 PM
IMHO it wasn't worth the endless posts of opinion disguised as facts.
I only offer opinions based on facts. For example how can you say Tmac left Toronto to be the man when he was hoping to hook up with a guy the caliber of Grant Hill all along? Sure its my opinion that he didnt care about being the man in Toronto but thats because his actions and words speak volumes more than some guys opinion based on bias. Im not sure what opinions you speak of on my part.


The point is I don't think you can quantify success or failure. TMac's career, in the long run, didn't measure up.
Measure up to whom? I really dont care where people rank him, but it should be based on actual evidence, not lies, not misuse of statistics. This argument isnt about where Tmac stacks up because different people value different things, this is about claims being passed off as fact with no evidence to support them.


Some will say it was his attitude, some will say it was his injuries, some will excuse him because he didn't "play with any HOFers". I didn't think the guy was bashing TMac, but like S&W above, I also saw a very egocentric TMac leave Toronto.
Any attempt to defame character based on lies and statistical manipulation is an attack, thats just me though. BTW the answer is genetics, he was blessed with his frame and athleticism but cursed with a bad spine.


The bigger they are (in their own minds especially) the harder they fall. Maybe there is something to the statement that he brought it on himself.
Brought his demise (injuries) onto himself?

So your attempting to boil down Tmacs moral fiber and overall decency on a few snippets of chatter with no willingness to find out the truth? Forget basketball for a second, your saying he deserves to be hurt because he doesnt fit your profile of what a star should say to the media?

Even if he was the biggest *** hole cancer the likes of which we have never seen, no player brings on the suffering to himself, least not in my opinion but if such a player does exist, he most definitely isnt Tmac. It would be a very cruel world where someone like Tmac deserves to robbed of his PEAK.

Chronz
10-27-2011, 11:21 PM
Strictly out of curiosity...are their quotes from Tmac himself explaining why he left Toronto? I can't seem to find any.
I can rummage it all up but Im busy with a few projects. If you wish to keep searching I recall a few articles and interviews where he states why he left, you should check out the SI Vault, I had to have read that in 2000 or 2001 so between that time interval. Basically Toronto asked him if he would stay and if he wouldnt to give them time to trade him before the season was up. He told Toronto he would considering staying if the team was willing to give him a bigger role and thats when they started dealing their PG's and moving Doug Christie to the spot and having one of my favorite lineups of all time with Tmac, Christie, VC.

What Tmac didnt tell Toronto was that he was already visualizing his departure, in a random game vs Detroit he had a brief conversation with Grant Hill about joining forces in Orlando. There were multiple teams interested in him but he chose Orlando because its closest to home. There is truth to the talk that he wanted to be away from VC but it wasnt to be the man. The cousins were having a fall-out of sorts and it continued for awhile, I remember the distinct difference in how they embraced each other in 2001 from 2003.

So basically he left to go home and build a dynasty, he and Hill were suppose to be the next MJ-Pippen, and Tmac was actually looking forward to being the Pippen.

ink
10-28-2011, 01:59 AM
I only offer opinions based on facts.

Maybe that's the problem. They're still just opinions twisted and twisted and then twisted again around facts. The facts just become an excuse or a justification for opinions (and ad hominem attacks on other posters). I'm looking for the shortest way to get around engaging in a conversation here. I'm sorry but I know when I read words like "lies" and such in a post that there's a lot of subjectivity there.

ink
10-28-2011, 02:07 AM
Good statement, but he has to say something and it's true, he couldn't carry his bummy *** teams the the finals.

He did what he could. It's OK to fail. One team in every playoffs series does and it's not the end of the world. Failure is a key ingredient in sport. Without the TMacs, Iversons, and Carters (the ones who couldn't get there, for whatever reason) you wouldn't have the ones who did get there. I don't have a problem admitting that the guy who came second, or the guy whose career was ruined by injury is still a good player.

What I have a problem with is the player who blames other people.

It's funny how cultural this is. Right now one of the big controversies in the NHL is that a certain high profile goalie (Roberto Luongo) doesn't readily take full responsibility for bad play. The work ethic and the fan base in that league demands that players make themselves so accountable that they could NEVER blame other players for their shortcomings or their failures. If the fan base even gets a whiff of blame off a player, that player is roasted. In the NBA finger-pointing is commonplace. Lack of character.

whitemamba33
10-28-2011, 02:21 AM
^I agree. It's become far too common.

I'v accepted that a lot of it is difference of opinion. It's really why I lost interest in this argument. Maybe it's just how I was raised...but as soon as I started blaming other people for things I was always put in my place. Sometimes my complaints were justified, sometimes they weren't. So it's hard for me to understand how TMAC can do that...whether what he said is actually true or not. But it's not my place to tell him what to say. I didn't really respect him as a player or a person before this comment, so it's my fault for expecting more of him.

But that's me, not him.

JordansBulls
10-28-2011, 12:12 PM
tears.

Man up and stop whining.

I lost all respect for him when I saw the game where he basically just played from half court and didn't take part in the offense. How can someone with so many injuries not cherish every moment he has on the court? You guys can talk about the "what if's" all day long, but i'm going to find it impossible to feel bad for the guy.

Was that the game against Toronto?

JordansBulls
10-31-2011, 11:17 AM
Good statement, but he has to say something and it's true, he couldn't carry his bummy *** teams the the finals.

Marino or Tmac are you talking about here?