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dnewguy
10-19-2011, 03:48 PM
Finally, tonight, if the NBA lockout is going to be resolved any time soon, it seems likely to be done in spite of David Stern, not because of him,......I say that because the NBA's infamously egocentric commissioner seemed more hellbent recently on demeaning the players rather than his game's labor impasse

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32813465

I do understand that we try to stay away from racism or race related articles on this forum but this is a very important issue we are facing whether we like it or not. There is a reason people/media don't care about the NBA lockout and it may just be because of the complexity of majority of the players. Afterall, NBA players salaries are more criticized than any other major sport.

My question to you guys is this: Are David's Stern's actions as commissioner such as dress code, player conduct and rule changes done because the players are mostly African Americans?

They fight all the time in hockey, they wear what they want and the world don't make a deal out of it but if that happened in the NBA, it's front page CNN. We should understand that the way the media portrays African American athletes affect the way Stern make the rules, justifiably or not. We can't lay all the blame on Stern in that respect.

Another thing that's been revealing for the disdain for NBA players can be seen in the process of this lockout. People seem not to care about the NBA lockout like they would care about Baseball or football...have they forgotten that basketball was actually invented in America? If it was not dominated by African Americans would the press had cared more about the NBA? This are things we shouldn't be avoiding on this forum even if they are willing to avoid it on the media.

OGMarkWahlberg
10-19-2011, 03:54 PM
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Muttman73
10-19-2011, 03:55 PM
Wow, unfortunately we are unable to have calm logical discussions in this country when it comes to race, which is a shame. I for one am not a fan of the NBA simply because I was never any good at basketball and really can't relate. I follow the Bulls, but it's nothing like how I follow the Bears or White Sox.

ewmania
10-19-2011, 03:58 PM
Wow, unfortunately we are unable to have calm logical decisions in this country when it comes to race, which is a shame.

agreed... people will either ignore or tell others to throw away the race card

and deep inside they know race plays a huge issue

Shmontaine
10-19-2011, 04:14 PM
This is just another hot button, attention grab..

why don't people see stern for what he is... a puppet for the owners. he takes all the heat so the attention is on him, and not the owners, and that's why they keep him in power...

btw, i love that BG goes off for over a minute on stern, then throws in "yes the nba's business model is broken, but"...


In 2006, SportsBusinessNews.com reports that Gumbel had harsh words for then NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue and then National Football League Players Association executive director Gene Upshaw.

"Before he cleans out his office, have Paul Tagliabue show you where he keeps Gene Upshaw's leash," Gumbel said. "By making the docile head of the players union his personal pet, your predecessor has kept the peace without giving players the kind of guarantees other pros take for granted. Try to make sure no one competent ever replaces Upshaw on your watch."

In reference to the 2006 Winter Olympics, NewsBusters.org reports that Gumbel said: "Try not to laugh when someone says these are the world’s greatest athletes, despite a paucity of blacks that makes the Winter Games look like a GOP convention."

BG likes to stir it up every know and then...

smith&wesson
10-19-2011, 04:20 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32813465

I do understand that we try to stay away from racism or race related articles on this forum but this is a very important issue we are facing whether we like it or not. There is a reason people/media don't care about the NBA lockout and it may just be because of the complexity of majority of the players. Afterall, NBA players salaries are more criticized than any other major sport.

My question to you guys is this: Are David's Stern's actions as commissioner such as dress code, player conduct and rule changes done because the players are mostly African Americans?

They fight all the time in hockey, they wear what they want and the world don't make a deal out of it but if that happened in the NBA, it's front page CNN. We should understand that the way the media portrays African American athletes affect the way Stern make the rules, justifiably or not. We can't lay all the blame on Stern in that respect.

Another thing that's been revealing for the disdain for NBA players can be seen in the process of this lockout. People seem not to care about the NBA lockout like they would care about Baseball or football...have they forgotten that basketball was actually invented in America? If it was not dominated by African Americans would the press had cared more about the NBA? This are things we shouldn't be avoiding on this forum even if they are willing to avoid it on the media.

hey dnewguy, are you aware that baskeball was invented by a canadian ?

also there are plenty of black nfl and mlb players. what your saying holds no merit. you cant play the race card when we now have black owners as well.

ink
10-19-2011, 04:21 PM
Victim talk that doesn't belong in the discussion.

daleja424
10-19-2011, 04:27 PM
Ya... this is not a race thing... this is a money thing.

LakersKB24
10-19-2011, 04:30 PM
I think it's a little farfetched to play the race card here.

1. A dress code is a good thing in general. The players represent their employers in public. At home the players can wear what the hell they want, but playing basketball is their job and they have a responsibility towards their employers and the NBA. What if I started to go to work with casual clothes? I don't think my boss would be too happy about it either.

2. The media doesn't care because fans start to lose interest too.
They covered the NFL lockout so much because of 2 reasons:
- Football is the #1 sport in the USA
- During their lockout they made progress and there was just more to report about.
After every meeting between the NBPA and the owners you hear the same ****: Both sides blaming each other for the lockout and not making progress instead of showing some interest to get a deal done asap. So why even bother writing another article about that?

fballJets
10-19-2011, 04:37 PM
1. The reason the lockout doesnt get as much attention as the NFL and MLB lockouts would is because the NBA is a distant 3rd in terms of popularity in this country. No other lockout in any sport would get as much attention, its not just the NBA.

2. If the NBA is a "plantation" tell me where to sign up, because when the average worker makes 5 million a year, thats an insult to ANY african american who actually worked on a plantation.

3. Race does play an issue in a lot of situations, but when it comes to race people always automatically think "black vs White", but its not just a black and white thing. There are other race/ethnic issues out there.

Hellcrooner
10-19-2011, 04:43 PM
1. The reason the lockout doesnt get as much attention as the NFL and MLB lockouts would is because the NBA is a distant 3rd in terms of popularity in this country. No other lockout in any sport would get as much attention, its not just the NBA.

2. If the NBA is a "plantation" tell me where to sign up, because when the average worker makes 5 million a year, thats an insult to ANY african american who actually worked on a plantation.

3. Race does play an issue in a lot of situations, but when it comes to race people always automatically think "black vs White", but its not just a black and white thing. There are other race/ethnic issues out there.

a golden cage is still a cage.

metswon69
10-19-2011, 04:45 PM
How is David Stern a "plantation overseer"?

They are looking to split over 4 Billion dollars in BRI with a failing economy around them

The players look incredibly selfish in this whole thing because its hard enough for people to go to sporting events to begin with

Whatever the players don't get in the short term, the owners will compromise or the players will force them to compromise in some of their long term requests so they should take the 50/50 split (with an opt out if the economy gets better in 3 or 4 years) and ensure there is a basketball season this year

Bryant Gumbel should not compare splitting all that money fairly to something like SLAVERY

Wade>You
10-19-2011, 04:49 PM
hey dnewguy, are you aware that baskeball was invented by a canadian ?

also there are plenty of black nfl and mlb players. what your saying holds no merit. you cant play the race card when we now have black owners as well.Invented by a Canadian but officially came about in America (both of you are right).

Either way, I agree with dnewguy that there are somethings you can't ignore.

Dan Gilbert is leading this lockout and the guy has been accused of being a racist by the way he reacted when LeBron left (similar to how slave owners felt about the possibility of their slaves leaving them). Is it crazy to think that he is racist by the way that he's trying to make it so no other franchise player never leaves their franchise?

Bravo95
10-19-2011, 04:51 PM
I'll never understand why fans insist on comparing their own salaries to professional athletes.

a golden cage is still a cage.
Yes.

Shmontaine
10-19-2011, 04:55 PM
a golden cage is still a cage.

LOL.. what cage are these players in??? please tell me, the 'cage' of the nba?? your desperation to correlate racism and slavery into these negotiations is quite comical... these players are FREE to work wherever their hearts desire on this planet, nobody is chaining them to the nba

maybe we should all live on a commune???

Shmontaine
10-19-2011, 04:57 PM
Invented by a Canadian but officially came about in America (both of you are right).

Either way, I agree with dnewguy that there are somethings you can't ignore.

Dan Gilbert is leading this lockout and the guy has been accused of being a racist by the way he reacted when LeBron left (similar to how slave owners felt about the possibility of their slaves leaving them). Is it crazy to think that he is racist by the way that he's trying to make it so no other franchise player never leaves their franchise?

wait... one guy, kg, couldn't possibly have deterred negotiations, but one guy gilbert is 'leading' the lockout??? i'll pass...

Hellcrooner
10-19-2011, 04:57 PM
LOL.. what cage are these players in??? please tell me, the 'cage' of the nba?? your desperation to correlate racism and slavery into these negotiations is quite comical... these players are FREE to work wherever their hearts desire on this planet, nobody is chaining them to the nba

maybe we should all live on a commune???

thats what draft, salary cap, max salarys and the rest of the crap is about.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-19-2011, 05:00 PM
:laugh2: watch Hellcrooner explode.

Wade>You
10-19-2011, 05:01 PM
wait... one guy, kg, couldn't possibly have deterred negotiations, but one guy gilbert is 'leading' the lockout??? i'll pass...The owners were the ones that locked the players out. I can't imagine KG is the reason we don't have basketball when it is the owners that locked the players out and are demanding the radical changes like all but doing away with Free Agency.

tcav701
10-19-2011, 05:06 PM
a golden cage is still a cage.

A cage??????

Yes or no,
Can a player walk away from the NBA whenevr he wants?

Yes or no,
Do most employers have regulations of how you need to conduct yourself at work? (attire,language,how to treat customers,ect.)

Yes or no,
At most jobs, do employees regaurdless of how well they perform or how much money they make the buisness have to listen to their employer?


This isnt a race issue and its a double standard that only black people can refer to situations at work as slavery. If this is slavery or a cage, then all of us who put in a hard days work are slaves as well. These comparisons just show how ignorant and uneducated these player are. But I guess thats what happens when you are handed everything from a young age because you have size and talent.

MrfadeawayJB
10-19-2011, 05:10 PM
A cage??????

Yes or no,
Can a player walk away from the NBA whenevr he wants?

Yes or no,
Do most employers have regulations of how you need to conduct yourself at work? (attire,language,how to treat customers,ect.)

Yes or no,
At most jobs, do employees regaurdless of how well they perform or how much money they make the buisness have to listen to their employer?


This isnt a race issue and its a double standard that only black people can refer to situations at work as slavery. If this is slavery or a cage, then all of us who put in a hard days work are slaves as well. These comparisons just show how ignorant and uneducated these player are. But I guess thats what happens when you are handed everything from a young age because you have size and talent.

this x 1000

bagwell368
10-19-2011, 05:11 PM
a golden cage is still a cage.

Put me in that cage for that dough any day of the week.

Players wear a tie in HS, college, and many pro teams enforce that, including clean shaven for the NYY.

It's a privilege to play in the NBA, not a right. This society has too few rules of conduct, not too many.

If the NBA players don't have the good sense to follow rules - then they have to be made to follow them.

Hellcrooner
10-19-2011, 05:12 PM
A cage??????

Yes or no,
Can a player walk away from the NBA whenevr he wants?

Yes or no,
Do most employers have regulations of how you need to conduct yourself at work? (attire,language,how to treat customers,ect.)

Yes or no,
At most jobs, do employees regaurdless of how well they perform or how much money they make the buisness have to listen to their employer?


This isnt a race issue and its a double standard that only black people can refer to situations at work as slavery. If this is slavery or a cage, then all of us who put in a hard days work are slaves as well. These comparisons just show how ignorant and uneducated these player are. But I guess thats what happens when you are handed everything from a young age because you have size and talent.

SHHHHHHHHHH, delete that, if "they" know you have figured it out you may end up under yankee stadium.

kozelkid
10-19-2011, 05:12 PM
To be honest, I'm surprised it took this long for someone to pull the race card. :laugh2:

J4KOP99
10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
A cage??????

Yes or no,
Can a player walk away from the NBA whenevr he wants?

Yes or no,
Do most employers have regulations of how you need to conduct yourself at work? (attire,language,how to treat customers,ect.)

Yes or no,
At most jobs, do employees regaurdless of how well they perform or how much money they make the buisness have to listen to their employer?


This isnt a race issue and its a double standard that only black people can refer to situations at work as slavery. If this is slavery or a cage, then all of us who put in a hard days work are slaves as well. These comparisons just show how ignorant and uneducated these player are. But I guess thats what happens when you are handed everything from a young age because you have size and talent.
.

smith&wesson
10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Invented by a Canadian but officially came about in America (both of you are right).

Either way, I agree with dnewguy that there are somethings you can't ignore.

Dan Gilbert is leading this lockout and the guy has been accused of being a racist by the way he reacted when LeBron left (similar to how slave owners felt about the possibility of their slaves leaving them). Is it crazy to think that he is racist by the way that he's trying to make it so no other franchise player never leaves their franchise?

i dont know dan gilbert personally so i cant tell you if he is a rasict. But i can tell you that any owner of a franchise who lost lebron james in free agency would dam near have a stroke if he actually cared about his small market team.

Cosmic_Canon
10-19-2011, 05:42 PM
I agree
Of course, some who disagree are most-likely non-black. Nothing against those who disagree, but I feel Gumbel is right.

tcav701
10-19-2011, 05:48 PM
I agree
Of course, some who disagree are most-likely non-black. Nothing against those who disagree, but I feel Gumbel is right.

So do you do what your boss tells you at work? and if so, would you ever compare your job to slavery?

I figured as proud african americans, they would NEVER compare their million dollar salaries to the crimes against humanity their fore fathers suffered.

kartyea
10-19-2011, 05:57 PM
David Stern and the plantation


Bryant Gumbel likened David Stern to a "modern plantation overseer" in talking labor at the close of his HBO "Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel" show:

[Stern] has alternately knocked union leader Billy Hunter, said the players were getting inaccurate information and started sounding Chicken Little claims about what games might be lost if the players didn’t soon see things his way.

Stern’s version of what’s been going on behind closed doors has, of course, been disputed. But his efforts were typical of a commissioner, who has always seemed eager to be viewed as some kind of modern plantation overseer treating NBA men as if they were his boys. It’s part of Stern’s MO. Like his past self-serving edicts on dress code or the questioning of officials, his moves are intended to do little more than show how he’s the one keeping the hired hands in their place.

Some will, of course, cringe at that characterization, but Stern’s disdain for the players is as palpable and pathetic as his motives are transparent. Yes, the NBA’s business model is broken, but to fix it, maybe the league’s commissioner should concern himself most with a solution and stop being part of the problem.

This has inspired a flurry of comments, and most, as far as I can tell, are along the lines of: How can anybody who makes as much money as an NBA player be likened in any way to a slave?

Not a new idea Of course, Gumbel didn't invent this idea, and there's a whole 2006 book about it. The point, of course, is that making money but having precious little control is still a tale of imperfect race relations. Warren Goldstein reviews William C. Rhoden's $40 Million Slaves:

Rhoden argues convincingly that integration posed relatively few problems for the white sports world, which quickly gained access to a huge pool of cheap talent, but that it precipitated a disaster for a “black industry, practically eliminating every black person involved in sports -- coaches, owners, trainers, accountants, lawyers, secretaries and so on -- except the precious on-the-field talent.”

Consequently, most black athletes lost their connection to a “sense of mission . . . of being part of a larger cause.” Young athletes, in particular, “dropped the thread that joins them to that struggle” and became, instead, a “lost tribe,” adrift in the world of white coaches, boosters, agents, club officials, network executives -- those profiting from black muscle and skill. ...

The peerless Michael Jordan, by contrast, declined to be identified with black causes, but even His Airness got taken down when he finally retired from his last on-the-court hurrah with the Washington Wizards (which made about $30 million for the team), expecting to return to the front office, and found himself fired by the owner Abe Pollin.

To Rhoden, this tale bursts with significance, illustrating, in turn: white people’s denial of black business ability while they continue to profit from black athletic skill; black athletes’ training in high school, college and the pros (what he calls the “conveyor belt”) to think only about individual success, never about a system that distributes power unequally; and how even today, professional basketball -- controlled by whites, dependent on blacks (for the present) -- resembles a plantation, albeit one on which the “slaves” earn millions as long as they don’t notice who’s running the show.

Gumbel's comment matters, and not as an isolated attack on Stern.

It's important as a real subtext of the talks going on right now. Since writing the other day that part of what's motivating players is an urge to reconcile exploitative white owner/black player relations of the past, I have heard from any number of sources from the players' side of the talks saying, essentially: "Exactly."

Gumbel's argument might be an awkward one for the NBA, but it's hardly one that can be ignored.

The one issue that's like real life Undazzle yourself, for a moment, with thoughts of NBA players' salaries and realize that there's a totally different, huge additional issue at stake right now, and this other part of it relates just a little to you.

The "systems issues" that the league wants to change in the name of competitive balance are the same sets of rules that will shift the market to make it far simpler for unproductive nonstar players to be laid off.

The league argues that these changes are in the name of "pay for performance," which sounds great, especially when the other option is what Knicks fans endured with Eddy Curry.

Pay-for-performance isn't everything In many American towns these days, there's a place where anyone is free to hire -- legally or not -- a day laborer or two without much fear of worker-friendly rules about labor laws, health insurance, retirement, social security contributions and the like. That is pay-for-performance. Your worker got hurt? Run down to the store and swap him for a different one.

I suspect most of us think employers owe workers more of a commitment than that, and it's not just about salary. It's about giving a guy a shot at being able to keep up through the bills through the rocky road of life. Making $12 an hour for one day might get you groceries. Making $12 an hour for a few years might get you a mortgage, or at least on-time rent payments -- which is a totally different and better thing for you, for your town, for society.

Now consider NBA 14th men. They don't have guaranteed deals. They don't have those huge salaries, especially when you spread the dollars they're earning now across the rest of their living days, which is the reality for some, especially considering at this part of the roster few have names that will get them jobs in other fields after they retire.

If the league wins those system changes, shorter contracts, a drastically reduced midlevel exception and a very stiff luxury tax that functions almost like a hard cap, then a big chunk of the NBA's middle class will join the ranks of players on unguaranteed make-good deals. Far more players will be forced to accept contracts where they can be fired at will because they are hurt, unproductive, have upset the owner or anything else. You can see this effect at work in the NFL, where teams can give players multiyear guaranteed deals, the kinds of deals that let you plan for the future ... but despite a sea of profits, only stars get those deals.

The value of a good team makes it smart to pay the whole roster good salaries, but the punishment of a harder cap makes it crazy for GMs to guarantee income to the rank-and-file. Like a landscape contractor working on thin margins, you simply can't afford to commit anything to a guy who's not at the top of his game.

Worth noting is that the union is not arguing for middling NBA players to be guaranteed all those things. It's arguing for them to have the right to negotiate for them case by case.

The restrictions the NBA is talking about would make it so that most free agents would have far fewer teams able to bid on their services. Even if 30 teams would like to have you, only a handful would be able to offer you anything. The supply would be the same as ever, but the demand would be way down compared to the old system, which the union had carefully set up to protect the middle class. Rotation players in the NBA could end up like rotation players in the NFL -- out the door as soon as things stop working for the team.

Maybe that's better for everybody in the big picture. Maybe efficiency is king. Or maybe what's better is just a little more job security. Maybe what's better is workers not ceding all control of their jobs to the bosses in exchange for high salaries. And maybe that's what Bryant Gumbel was getting at.

http:// http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32634/david-stern-and-the-plantation

iam brett favre
10-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Comments like this make me :puke:
Racism exists, but certainly not in the NBA, this is a disgrace.
I'd like to see Gumbel explain to a slave why Eddy Curry made $11 million last year.

J4KOP99
10-19-2011, 06:13 PM
Gumbel busted prematurely on this one... maybe his ratings were slipping or something?

blahblahyoutoo
10-19-2011, 08:02 PM
the only racist here is gumbel. he's made public racist statements before.

SportsAndrew25
10-19-2011, 08:05 PM
Bryant Gumbel. Another reason why race baiting still exists in America. :facepalm:

Tom Stone
10-19-2011, 08:30 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32813465

I do understand that we try to stay away from racism or race related articles on this forum but this is a very important issue we are facing whether we like it or not. There is a reason people/media don't care about the NBA lockout and it may just be because of the complexity of majority of the players. After all, NBA players salaries are more criticized than any other major sport.

My question to you guys is this: Are David's Stern's actions as commissioner such as dress code, player conduct and rule changes done because the players are mostly African Americans?

They fight all the time in hockey, they wear what they want and the world don't make a deal out of it but if that happened in the NBA, it's front page CNN. We should understand that the way the media portrays African American athletes affect the way Stern make the rules, justifiably or not. We can't lay all the blame on Stern in that respect.

Another thing that's been revealing for the disdain for NBA players can be seen in the process of this lockout. People seem not to care about the NBA lockout like they would care about Baseball or football...have they forgotten that basketball was actually invented in America? If it was not dominated by African Americans would the press had cared more about the NBA? This are things we shouldn't be avoiding on this forum even if they are willing to avoid it on the media.




That is a joke man......All of those changes, are good for our game......Complaing to Refs, was getting out of hand....guys were pleading for a call on everything.....the ref is just trying to make the right call, and saw what he saw...screaming and intimating the ref is a poor way to conduct our selfs in this sport.....The dress code, in my opinion has been great, those suits look fly, and lets face it there is a lot of kids out there looking up to these guys, and looking like your slinging dope at the corner, is not totally cool....I don't think it's too much to ask to show some class

Wade>You
10-19-2011, 08:50 PM
That is a joke man......All of those changes, are good for our game......Complaing to Refs, was getting out of hand....guys were pleading for a call on everything.....the ref is just trying to make the right call, and saw what he saw...screaming and intimating the ref is a poor way to conduct our selfs in this sport.....The dress code, in my opinion has been great, those suits look fly, and lets face it there is a lot of kids out there looking up to these guys, and looking like your slinging dope at the corner, is not totally cool....I don't think it's too much to ask to show some classIronically, a lot of people felt the refs were handing out too many techs and it was ruining the game.

Won't argue the suits.

gwrighter
10-19-2011, 08:56 PM
Unwarranted, cheap shot, excuse. This is not racism, its business. The ONLY colour that matters is green.

Evolution23
10-19-2011, 09:00 PM
Racism does exist in America and the world. Lets not just dismiss his argument out the window even though he took it too far with the "plantation" comment.

D-Leethal
10-19-2011, 09:41 PM
I personally think Stern is a douche but when you are a professional you should act like a professional and that is what Stern forces the players to do. Nothing wrong with that. And the proof is in the pudding........Stern has done a tremendous job expanding, globalizing, and advancing the NBA since he has been at the helm.....hard to argue with the results

blahblahyoutoo
10-19-2011, 09:50 PM
Racism does exist in America and the world. Lets not just dismiss his argument out the window even though he took it too far with the "plantation" comment.

i normally wouldn't but he has a history of race baiting with his comments.

Hellcrooner
10-19-2011, 10:16 PM
I personally think Stern is a douche but when you are a professional you should act like a professional and that is what Stern forces the players to do. Nothing wrong with that. And the proof is in the pudding........Stern has done a tremendous job expanding, globalizing, and advancing the NBA since he has been at the helm.....hard to argue with the results

i would have loved to see how Stern globalized the game if he didnt have The Lakers vs Celtics with Magic and Bird rivarly handed to him, and then MJ.:rolleyes:

More-Than-Most
10-19-2011, 10:31 PM
I would allow someone to whip me/Beat me and to take advantage of me if they were to pay me 100 million dollars... Seriously please someone just make an offer and I am there. Forget pride...

On a more serious note I find it a little disrespectful when compared to what actual slaves had to go through back in the day. people really need to get their head out of their arses.

Hellcrooner
10-19-2011, 11:00 PM
I would allow someone to whip me/Beat me and to take advantage of me if they were to pay me 100 million dollars... Seriously please someone just make an offer and I am there. Forget pride...

On a more serious note I find it a little disrespectful when compared to what actual slaves had to go through back in the day. people really need to get their head out of their arses.

i guess that 19th century factory workers didnt have a right to compare their situation( 16 work hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for a misery of a salary with no sotial security, no right to get money if losing their jobs, no retirement salary when older etc etc) with slavery because they were in "better condition" than the actual slaves from before?


i also find soooooooooo funny when psd people bash on players because they have "too much money" hey they cant compalin because they "make too much money" when as a matter of fact the highest paid player is a homeless man in comparison with the poorest owner who just want to ride that players talent to put money on HIS OWN POCKEt and trying to pay the less salary possible to the players.

thats what this is about.

Greedy Billionaries trying to get even more rich on the wokr of other people, pay them less so your benefit goes higher.

and dont come with the **** they are "losing" money, when they have been cheating and being "creative" With their FAKE numbers.

gwrighter
10-19-2011, 11:48 PM
Racism does exist in America and the world. Lets not just dismiss his argument out the window even though he took it too far with the "plantation" comment.

racism obviously exists everywhere.

Of course i'm dismissing this comment. what are his comments based on? Nothing.

RZZZA
10-19-2011, 11:54 PM
I do not see the analogy between a whipcracker at a plantation and the commissioner of the NBA.

Unless somehow all the history books were lying to me and slaves in plantations were actually earning millions of dollars for their work.

Rego247
10-20-2011, 12:03 AM
Unwarranted, cheap shot, excuse. This is not racism, its business. The ONLY colour that matters is green.

Damn straight.

masTOR_shake1
10-20-2011, 12:03 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh ::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh ::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

:clap: people don't care becuase the nba is rigged, i hope it stays locked out untill parady is made a reality. players can **** off.

marlinsfan24
10-20-2011, 12:10 AM
Racism is still strong today because people like Bryant Gumbel keep looking for it where it clearly isn't.

More-Than-Most
10-20-2011, 12:21 AM
i guess that 19th century factory workers didnt have a right to compare their situation( 16 work hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for a misery of a salary with no sotial security, no right to get money if losing their jobs, no retirement salary when older etc etc) with slavery because they were in "better condition" than the actual slaves from before?


i also find soooooooooo funny when psd people bash on players because they have "too much money" hey they cant compalin because they "make too much money" when as a matter of fact the highest paid player is a homeless man in comparison with the poorest owner who just want to ride that players talent to put money on HIS OWN POCKEt and trying to pay the less salary possible to the players.

thats what this is about.

Greedy Billionaries trying to get even more rich on the wokr of other people, pay them less so your benefit goes higher.

and dont come with the **** they are "losing" money, when they have been cheating and being "creative" With their FAKE numbers.

Let me ask you something... I work for less and I work for a boss who has a ton of money and I work a ton of hours on a daily basis... Do I get to scream slavery? I don't have to work for my boss and players don't have to play in the nba... They have a choice just like everyone else... To compare an everyday Job to slavery because their bosses make more and do less is similar to 90 percent of the other Jobs in america.

Also are players not trying to get more rich on the work of other people as well? The Billionaires have a ton of money invested into this nba and it helps allow the nba to stay a float and the Players have the privilege of playing and making millions. No matter how you look at it the players are no better than the owners and vice versa in these situations.

RipCity32
10-20-2011, 12:34 AM
I never thought about it but maybe my boss is a racist because he uses all of us workers to get rich,its the way it is, the NBA is a business just like the ones we work for this is just ignorant.the players are employees like the rest of the world the only difference is they drive ferrarries and lambos to work poor guys you want to feel a plantation come to work with me.boo hoo to the players.

ink
10-20-2011, 12:47 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32813465

My question to you guys is this: Are David's Stern's actions as commissioner such as dress code, player conduct and rule changes done because the players are mostly African Americans?

They fight all the time in hockey, they wear what they want and the world don't make a deal out of it but if that happened in the NBA, it's front page CNN. We should understand that the way the media portrays African American athletes affect the way Stern make the rules, justifiably or not. We can't lay all the blame on Stern in that respect.

Another thing that's been revealing for the disdain for NBA players can be seen in the process of this lockout. People seem not to care about the NBA lockout like they would care about Baseball or football...have they forgotten that basketball was actually invented in America? If it was not dominated by African Americans would the press had cared more about the NBA? This are things we shouldn't be avoiding on this forum even if they are willing to avoid it on the media.

The NHL has had a dress code for a long time. The whole dress code thing in the NBA was BS.


Don't look for an NBA-style dress code flap in the NHL.

That's because most hockey players have been told what to wear for years, long before they reach the NHL. Most junior and minor-pro teams have some form of dress code covering what is and isn't to be worn to games and around the rink. Dress codes for minor hockey teams are also common and are seen as a way of fostering team unity and cohesion.

Vincent Lacavalier
Vinny Lecavalier follows the "no jeans" rule as a member of the Lightning.

"Ten years old we had to wear a shirt and tie," Tampa Bay Lightning star Vincent Lecavalier said, recalling his days growing up in the Montreal suburb of Ile-Bizard, Quebec. "I had the leather zip-up tie.

"Everybody wears a suit. We're just so used it," added Lecavalier, who is known as one of the snappier dressers in the league. "It would be nice if we could wear what we want."

That's not likely to happen anytime soon, because the players' dress code is written into the current collective bargaining agreement.

Exhibit 14, Paragraph 5 reads: "Players are required to wear jackets, ties and dress pants to all Club games and while traveling to and from such games unless otherwise specified by the Head Coach or General Manager."

Similar language was in the previous CBA, which covered the period from January 1995 to September 2004.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=2198862

sixer04fan
10-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Bryant Gumbel should've known better... Think about what you say before you go throwing out the slavery card. In reality, few people have done as much for black people as Stern has.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7126679/bryant-gumbel-unfairly-labeled-nba-commissioner-david-stern

Years ago there was a vibrant and sharp young man, a trailblazer who shook up the sports world, the Obama of his industry. He could not be ignored because his talent and presence were just too obvious. And yet, he was also an outcast of sorts, a figure of derision, a punch line of a million jokes.

He was Bryant Gumbel, the best broadcaster in the business and a man the black community didn't feel was "black enough," mainly because he didn't speak "black enough" on the job. Comedians constantly took shots at Gumbel's perceived lack of ethnicity. Almost everyone did, it seemed.

Really. Gumbel was so polished on the air, his nickname was No Stumble Gumbel, well earned because nothing or no one threw him for a garbled loop. And in a short-sighted way, a segment of the black community laughed at Gumbel for "talking white" and concluding that his speech was actually an extension of the man and his beliefs, rather than an extension of his intelligence and skill.

I was struck by how stupid this was, because I knew better. Before he became a rising star at NBC, Gumbel created and ran a magazine called Black Sports, devoted to covering the black athlete in a way that was free of the stereotypes and clumsy depictions so often associated with the mainstream media during that time (blacks were "natural-born athletes" while white athletes were "smart"). And there was nothing in Gumbel's history that suggested he was anything less than a solid journalist with a social conscience, at a time when black faces on the networks were extremely rare.

Those who laughed at Gumbel didn't bother to look beyond the articulation, which was unfair to Gumbel. In hindsight, it was silly. Dare I say, almost as silly as the other day, when Gumbel, on a recent "Real Sports" rant on HBO, refused to look beyond David Stern's role in the ongoing labor negotiations when he likened the NBA commissioner to a "plantation overseer."

Of all the power brokers in sports on all levels, Stern is absolutely the last person on the list to fit such a description. Actually, Stern doesn't even make the list.

So let's get this straight: The only commissioner in sports who constantly pushed for and finally secured black ownership within his league is somehow linked to a slave master?

David Stern, who made more black men rich than anyone in history, lives in The Big House?

Gumbel may not stumble, but in this instance, he did fumble. Badly. Without being stripped. On the 1-yard line.

Gumbel is guilty of doing to Stern what the black community once did to him: ignoring the man's character and taking a cheap and misguided shot at what he thinks Stern is all about.

Rather than try to guess at Gumbel's motives, it's probably better to defend Stern, which is a fairly easy job. I believe I've spent more time in Stern's company than Gumbel has, which makes me a better authority on Stern and where he stands and what he believes in. And it's totally opposite of the flimsy conclusion Gumbel reached -- emphasis on reach.

It always annoyed Stern that the company he controlled, and the men in the owners' club, didn't reflect the same color of the players on the floor. And so, not long after he became commissioner, Stern went about fixing the flaw. The NBA offices took on a different complexion, but that was small stuff. Stern wanted black representation at the highest level. He wanted to crash the old-boy network. He wanted to go where no commissioner had gone before (or since).

And so Stern sought black ownership, even at the risk of his own reputation. He secured black ownership of the Nuggets in 1990 until his hand-picked pioneers, turned out, had holes in their pockets. He then pushed to put an expansion team in Charlotte and lobbied hard for Bob Johnson, the former Black Entertainment Television titan, over Larry Bird, one of the greatest players ever. And when Johnson turned out to be a dud, Stern encouraged Johnson to sell at a discount to Michael Jordan.

Oh, and technically, Jordan is Stern's boss. Does that make Jordan a "plantation overseer" too?

You almost feel silly having to defend Stern, but here's something else. Years ago I went with Stern on a trip to South Africa, along with Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo. It was a goodwill trip conducted in the wake of the shift of power to Nelson Mandela. Stern thought it was important for the NBA to have a presence during a time of great change in a country where change was desperately needed. He didn't have to go. But he made a point to share the experience with the three players, to learn about the culture, to educate himself on the principles and philosophy of Mandela and the new regime.

Stern won big points with the players that day. Maybe Gumbel should've reached out to them, to get their take on Stern.

Stern isn't the most charming figure in these labor negotiations. He isn't easy to work for, and even harder to negotiate against. As well he should. A weak commissioner lends himself to a weak league. Anyway, he's merely carrying out the demands of his owners, Jordan among them, in this grudge match with the players' union.

You can disagree with his tactics and his strategy and his idea of what makes for a financially stable NBA. But you can't, under any circumstances, compare the most progressive commissioner in sports to a slave owner.

That's as foolish as, um, someone saying Stern is blacker than Gumbel.

mekedubs
10-20-2011, 02:21 PM
Has anyone read the book "$40 million dollar slaves"? If not, it goes into great detail about this and other black athlete topics... Great read for those who are interested. Pertains alot to some of what Bryant Gumbel was saying....

ink
10-20-2011, 02:54 PM
This hurts the players IMO. I realize it was not a player who said it, but there is so little sympathy for millionaire athletes, this kind of stupid hyperbole about race just makes their case that much sillier.

These are the richest "plantation workers" the world has ever known.

Seriously the victim complex has to stop. You can't be a victim and make more than a million a season, let alone upwards of $15M like some.

Look at any other league and look at how restrictive their systems are. Do we hear them referred to as slaves?

Nope.

Wade>You
10-20-2011, 02:55 PM
I lol at any article that paints a great picture of David Stern.

sixer04fan
10-20-2011, 03:09 PM
I lol at these athletes that make millions of dollars a year to play a game and refer to themselves as "slaves." Or any article that makes the slavery comparison.

Give me a break. These guys are the luckiest people on the planet.

Shmontaine
10-20-2011, 03:35 PM
i guess that 19th century factory workers didnt have a right to compare their situation( 16 work hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for a misery of a salary with no sotial security, no right to get money if losing their jobs, no retirement salary when older etc etc) with slavery because they were in "better condition" than the actual slaves from before?

are you comparing professional athletes to sweatshop workers now??? your credibility continues to decline...


i also find soooooooooo funny when psd people bash on players because they have "too much money" hey they cant compalin because they "make too much money" when as a matter of fact the highest paid player is a homeless man in comparison with the poorest owner who just want to ride that players talent to put money on HIS OWN POCKEt and trying to pay the less salary possible to the players.


it's business, welcome... is everyone still not in the top 1% of american income... probably the top 0.5%??


thats what this is about.

Greedy Billionaries trying to get even more rich on the wokr of other people, pay them less so your benefit goes higher.

and dont come with the **** they are "losing" money, when they have been cheating and being "creative" With their FAKE numbers.


if you truly believe this, then keep it about this, and leave race/racism out of it... however, i believe you just go with whatever will allow you to make a snappy retort... race or owners vs. players... it's pretty transparent, and sad...

sixer04fan
10-20-2011, 03:48 PM
i guess that 19th century factory workers didnt have a right to compare their situation( 16 work hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for a misery of a salary with no sotial security, no right to get money if losing their jobs, no retirement salary when older etc etc) with slavery because they were in "better condition" than the actual slaves from before?


i also find soooooooooo funny when psd people bash on players because they have "too much money" hey they cant compalin because they "make too much money" when as a matter of fact the highest paid player is a homeless man in comparison with the poorest owner who just want to ride that players talent to put money on HIS OWN POCKEt and trying to pay the less salary possible to the players.

thats what this is about.

Your complete and utter lack of perspective about... everything... is mind boggling.

i'myourdaddy
10-20-2011, 04:03 PM
haha always the black man screaming racist...are you black hellcroner?

Hellcrooner
10-20-2011, 04:07 PM
This hurts the players IMO. I realize it was not a player who said it, but there is so little sympathy for millionaire athletes, this kind of stupid hyperbole about race just makes their case that much sillier.

These are the richest "plantation workers" the world has ever known.

Seriously the victim complex has to stop. You can't be a victim and make more than a million a season, let alone upwards of $15M like some.

Look at any other league and look at how restrictive their systems are. Do we hear them referred to as slaves?

Nope.

any player of any sport playing OUTSIDE USa

1) can choose wich team he wants to play for from the start.
2) doesnt need to finish his contract to go somwhere else, just needs an agreemente between both the clubs on the money.
3) can join whoever they want in their team because there is no salary cap.
4) once his contract is done he can join whoever he wants, no restrictions.
5) can earn as much money as he wants, theres not a maximum salary that can be offered, market rules that.
6) doesnt need to finish his contract to rise the amount he is earning, it can be renegotiated and prolonged at any time.
7) the benefits of the merchandise with his name or face in it goes TO HIS OWN POCKET unless he has negotiated otherwise with his team.,
8) can start beng a pro since 14-16 yeaars old deppenidng on the country,

so, read it all again and tell me Nba players arent slaves IN COMPARISON.

Hellcrooner
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
haha always the black man screaming racist...are you black hellcroner?

Half Caucasian half American Native(venezuela)

Shmontaine
10-20-2011, 04:26 PM
any player of any sport playing OUTSIDE USa

1) can choose wich team he wants to play for from the start.
2) doesnt need to finish his contract to go somwhere else, just needs an agreemente between both the clubs on the money.
3) can join whoever they want in their team because there is no salary cap.
4) once his contract is done he can join whoever he wants, no restrictions.
5) can earn as much money as he wants, theres not a maximum salary that can be offered, market rules that.
6) doesnt need to finish his contract to rise the amount he is earning, it can be renegotiated and prolonged at any time.
7) the benefits of the merchandise with his name or face in it goes TO HIS OWN POCKET unless he has negotiated otherwise with his team.,
8) can start beng a pro since 14-16 yeaars old deppenidng on the country,



wow.. really?? how much parity is there in all these sports... err, sorry... soccer....
also, if there was equal voice in all these 'other sports' among owners, you would see these restrictions.. but the richest teams run the entire sport...


so, read it all again and tell me Nba players arent slaves IN COMPARISON.

slavery is not based on comparisons.. ever.. however, knowledge can be, and i would imagine you hang around with some pretty dumb people...


and deeper falls your credibility...

Hellcrooner
10-20-2011, 04:31 PM
wow.. really?? how much parity is there in all these sports... err, sorry... soccer....

slavery is not based on comparisons.. ever.. and deeper falls your credibility...

nope not only soccer EVERY SPORT in europe ( basket, Rugby, handball, voleyball, whatever, every of them)


And bout parity?

The number of teams that have won the Free market ruled Baskebtall Euroleague in europe since 1980 is TWICE the number of nba teams that have won the ring with all the "parity Rules".

The team that has most euroleagues has like a 15% of them, whilst lakers has 30 % and Lakers+bulls have HALF OF THEM in same period.

sixer04fan
10-20-2011, 04:38 PM
any player of any sport playing OUTSIDE USa

1) can choose wich team he wants to play for from the start.
2) doesnt need to finish his contract to go somwhere else, just needs an agreemente between both the clubs on the money.
3) can join whoever they want in their team because there is no salary cap.
4) once his contract is done he can join whoever he wants, no restrictions.
5) can earn as much money as he wants, theres not a maximum salary that can be offered, market rules that.
6) doesnt need to finish his contract to rise the amount he is earning, it can be renegotiated and prolonged at any time.
7) the benefits of the merchandise with his name or face in it goes TO HIS OWN POCKET unless he has negotiated otherwise with his team.,
8) can start beng a pro since 14-16 yeaars old deppenidng on the country,

so, read it all again and tell me Nba players arent slaves IN COMPARISON.

Come on, man... Really?

I definitely don't know if ALL of that is true for ALL sports outside of the US, like you so boldly claim, so I won't even argue that... While I think that's extremely bold, and doubt that is all true, I'll still concede that to you because I don't know for sure to argue against it.

But these players choose to play in the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, etc. It's their choice. Are they "slaves" in comparison? No. That's just ridiculous to say. These guys make a choice, sign a contract at their own free will, and get paid MILLIONS of dollars. If you feel like a "slave" by playing in the NBA, then don't sign a contract to play in the league.

On the racial front, which is what Gumbel brought into play when he brought this whole thing up, is David Stern a "plantation overseer"? Are you kidding me? The league that he runs has made more black men rich than basically anyone in the history of the world. He's made strides in pushing for more black ownership throughout the league. The commissioners job, bottom line, is to make the owners money. So because the owners want to come up with a new CBA to make more money, the players get upset, and some fans call him racist? It's completely stupid.

D-Leethal
10-20-2011, 06:13 PM
i would have loved to see how Stern globalized the game if he didnt have The Lakers vs Celtics with Magic and Bird rivarly handed to him, and then MJ.:rolleyes:

That is the sorriest excuse I have ever heard. Fact is he was given certain opportunities and milked them for what they were worth, making all the right decisions to exploit them and in turn he saved, advanced, and eventually globalized the game. Stern is brilliant, sure hes a douche, but hes done a tremendous job with the NBA......

Bramaca
10-20-2011, 06:23 PM
nope not only soccer EVERY SPORT in europe ( basket, Rugby, handball, voleyball, whatever, every of them)


And bout parity?

The number of teams that have won the Free market ruled Baskebtall Euroleague in europe since 1980 is TWICE the number of nba teams that have won the ring with all the "parity Rules".

The team that has most euroleagues has like a 15% of them, whilst lakers has 30 % and Lakers+bulls have HALF OF THEM in same period.

Euroleague has more parity but its not hard to do that in a league that competes for players that are borderline to play in a top league. It's the same thing in the CFL. The top end league takes all the elite players while the lower league gets guys that could or could not make it. Saying Euroleague has parity in comparison to the NBA isn't realistic.

As for soccer in Europe, its not any better (possibly worse) in terms of parity. Out of 443 teams in UEFA, 10 teams have won 77% of the Champions Cups over its 56 year history. In the last 20 years that rises to 90%. Throw in that a lot of getting to this point is decided by individual matches instead of series and I would say there is no such thing as parity in UEFA.

tcav701
10-20-2011, 06:34 PM
any player of any sport playing OUTSIDE USa

1) can choose wich team he wants to play for from the start.
2) doesnt need to finish his contract to go somwhere else, just needs an agreemente between both the clubs on the money.
3) can join whoever they want in their team because there is no salary cap.
4) once his contract is done he can join whoever he wants, no restrictions.
5) can earn as much money as he wants, theres not a maximum salary that can be offered, market rules that.
6) doesnt need to finish his contract to rise the amount he is earning, it can be renegotiated and prolonged at any time.
7) the benefits of the merchandise with his name or face in it goes TO HIS OWN POCKET unless he has negotiated otherwise with his team.,
8) can start beng a pro since 14-16 yeaars old deppenidng on the country,

so, read it all again and tell me Nba players arent slaves IN COMPARISON.

So are players in the NFL,MLB,and NHL slaves as well? OR does the sport have to be 90% black to make such a claim?

save the knicks
10-20-2011, 06:45 PM
It's slavery no doubt, but it has zero to do with race. The super wealthy that own these teams are just sick twisted control freaks that are used to bilking there employees. Only difference between this and there other businesses is that labor/players actually have leverage.

Bramaca
10-20-2011, 06:50 PM
It's slavery no doubt, but it has zero to do with race. The super wealthy that own these teams are just sick twisted control freaks that are used to bilking there employees. Only difference between this and there other businesses is that labor/players actually have leverage.

Which pretty much eliminates any comparison to slavery. NBA players and the owners disagree on pay and the owners lock them out or they strike and have the option of playing for money over seasmaking their own league, charity games, etc. Slaves disagree with the owners they get beaten, whipped, tarred and feathered, or killed. The comparison is ridiculous.

tcav701
10-20-2011, 07:03 PM
It's slavery no doubt, but it has zero to do with race. The super wealthy that own these teams are just sick twisted control freaks that are used to bilking there employees. Only difference between this and there other businesses is that labor/players actually have leverage.

That doesnt make it slavery, it makes it a job.

gwrighter
10-20-2011, 07:03 PM
kind of reminds me of kanye west's "George Bush doesn't care about black people" comment. Cept that had more credibility than this. At least that had some form of context.

Arch Stanton
10-21-2011, 08:01 AM
Invented by a Canadian but officially came about in America (both of you are right).

Either way, I agree with dnewguy that there are somethings you can't ignore.

Dan Gilbert is leading this lockout and the guy has been accused of being a racist by the way he reacted when LeBron left (similar to how slave owners felt about the possibility of their slaves leaving them). Is it crazy to think that he is racist by the way that he's trying to make it so no other franchise player never leaves their franchise?

:facepalm: What did Dan Gilbert do besides write in Comic Sans? Specifically, how was he racist? You are the definition of a race card! And way to go dnewguy with more bait threads! Again, aren't you supposed to shut your account? Remember Dallas won!

bagwell368
10-21-2011, 08:29 AM
It's slavery no doubt, but it has zero to do with race. The super wealthy that own these teams are just sick twisted control freaks that are used to bilking there employees. Only difference between this and there other businesses is that labor/players actually have leverage.

Care to provide examples? Doc Rivers makes nice coin as a Coach. Have you seen his home?

The laws of the land protect non basketball employees of these owners. Please provide examples of "bilking". I'd love to be "bilked" by these guys.

ManRam
10-21-2011, 09:42 AM
What a complete and utter joke.

I hate both sides so much right now. Annoying just showing complete and utter disdain to one side and not the other is wrong. Blame them both. This **** annoys me.

Your IQ must be unimaginably low to compare Stern to a slave owner. I'd kill someone to be one of his "slaves"...

If this is about greed, which I hate (#occupytheworld!), OK. But comparing it to slavery is so ignorant it's not even funny. I will not for a second feel bad for the players. Just go make millions of dollars overseas if you want...

sixer04fan
10-21-2011, 09:56 AM
But comparing it to slavery is so ignorant it's not even funny. I will not for a second feel bad for the players. Just go make millions of dollars overseas if you want...

Exactly. You sign a contract to play in the US and get paid millions of dollars. It's the players choice. If you don't like it, don't play here. As someone mentioned, it's not slavery, it's a job, and one of the best jobs you can have on the planet. If you don't want to play in the NBA, then don't. Go overseas and make your millions. Or, God forbid, your hundred thousands.

They aren't forced onto boats at gunpoint, shipped over here, and force to play for free. They make a choice to play basketball, train themselves for their entire lives, enter the draft by their own choice, sign a contract that they have to agree to, and then get paid millions of dollars to play a game and be famous. The fact that anyone would throw the slave term out there in comparison is a joke. Yeah, the owners want to make more money off of them. Oh my God! No... That's called running a business. Welcome to planet earth you idiots.

Sly Guy
10-21-2011, 10:03 AM
a golden cage is still a cage.

lol, that argument still doesn't work. It's called a 'job description'. If you don't like what's in it, you can GTFO. I'm not a fan of Stern by any means, but calling him a plantation overseer is unfair even to him.

"Ooooh, I can't dress the way I want, they make me wear a stupid uniform"
Anyone working for McDonald's probably feels the same

"Ooooh, I can't swear when I want to, I can't speak my mind or question my boss"
Anyone working anywhere can't do this either.

If these are your issues when you're being paid millions of dollars a year for *maybe* a 25 hour work week with games practices and travel then you are actually quite lucky. Stern may not always be right, and that's where we as fans can criticize, but the players, like everyone else in the USA has to respect their boss.

ink
10-21-2011, 11:06 AM
For starters, slaves are not offered contracts.

A contract is a legally binding document for both parties. A CBA is a collective bargaining agreement. BARGAINING.

Slaves do not get to bargain.

They do not get union representation.

They do not get millions of dollars to do their jobs.

Slaves are owned; NBA athletes are under contracts they willingly sign. Often they extort money and special conditions in those contracts. Then, like the rest of the world, they have to honour the terms of their contract and the CBA.

If they don't like what they negotiated for, they should not sign the contracts, the CBA, or sign formal deals to commit themselves to a team.

Gumbel's comments are a profound insult to the memory of the actual slaves in history.

Sly Guy
10-21-2011, 11:28 AM
For starters, slaves are not offered contracts.

A contract is a legally binding document for both parties. A CBA is a collective bargaining agreement. BARGAINING.

Slaves do not get to bargain.

They do not get union representation.

They do not get millions of dollars to do their jobs.

Slaves are owned; NBA athletes are under contracts they willingly sign. Often they extort money and special conditions in those contracts. Then, like the rest of the world, they have to honour the terms of their contract and the CBA.

If they don't like what they negotiated for, they should not sign the contracts, the CBA, or sign formal deals to commit themselves to a team.

Gumbel's comments are a profound insult to the memory of the actual slaves in history.

agreed. It's like the over-use of Hitler in heated political rhetoric. You cheapen the actual history by using the reference in overly dramatic language.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 12:33 PM
Here in Europe

JOBS


have RULES.

CONTRACTS have rules.

If the Rules dont abide by the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW the COntract is illegal and Voided.

Well The NBA Rules that those players sign, WOULDNT BE FIT in any civilized country, so i assume if a federal Judge wanted to go chase their balls hard they could probably find out that those rules are AGAINST Usa constitution too.


You can keep watching the shortsighted "they are payed millions" **** while i will keep watching at the larger scale problem that there is in the way american sports are ruled .

And i will repeat again?

Parity?

If you put a burger restaurant side by side with a MCdonalds and obviously since you dont have ads in national tv, nor fame nor anything, you are losing money whos going to put a gun in mcdonalds owner and tell him, hey man you have to share your benefit with your poor burguer competitor and you also have to make your burgers to taste worse and pay national tv ads to your competition, because this is not fair, is not parity.

It woudlnt happen, wouldnt it? i mean thats C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

Im heavily surprised Edgar Hoover never put his dogs agaisnt the Pro leagues because , Draft, Max salarys, Salary Cap and the rest of the "parity" crap is another word for C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

And btw, communist country citizens are SLAVES.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 12:36 PM
Btw, Nba is a "de facto" Monopoly , thats another thing a federal judge may want to investigate, well in fact they did during the nba/ aba feud, but of course nba bought the aba and the thing was put to sleep.

And yep nba being a Monopoly ELIMINATES any Poor validity in the argument some people is using about "they dont force you to sign to nba".

Cubs420
10-21-2011, 01:19 PM
O no!....Those poor black athletes that make millions to bounce a ball. God they are so mistreated...:rolleyes:



Shut the hell up Gumbel, you closet racist ****...

ellisgw
10-21-2011, 01:45 PM
i love hearing white guys talking about racism and black men, its like me trying to explain rocket science.

Sly Guy
10-21-2011, 02:00 PM
i love hearing white guys talking about racism and black men, its like me trying to explain rocket science.

and why would that be? Because someone isn't the 'victim' of racism they are incapable of understanding it? That's like saying a judge or jury can't understand murder because it wasn't their loved one who was killed.

ccugrad1
10-21-2011, 03:00 PM
With today's economy, you are going to have a very difficult time getting average Americans to feel sorry for millionaires and billionaires graveling over money. I hope they sit out the entire season the greedy bastards

ellisgw
10-21-2011, 03:35 PM
and why would that be? Because someone isn't the 'victim' of racism they are incapable of understanding it? That's like saying a judge or jury can't understand murder because it wasn't their loved one who was killed.

to a certain degree yes

sixer04fan
10-21-2011, 03:42 PM
i love hearing white guys talking about racism and black men, its like me trying to explain rocket science.

Except it's not like that, at all...

We have more merit discussing what's racist and what's not than Bryant Gumbel and these millionaires have talking about being slaves.

Sly Guy
10-21-2011, 03:52 PM
to a certain degree yes

don't mistake perspective for understanding. Those victims of racism have a unique perspective of it, but it doesn't mean they understand it better. If it did, racism as a problem would never be solved because the offending side would never know when they'd offended someone. Painting the sides that firmly down the sand doesn't solve the issue it only exacerbates the situation.

Shmontaine
10-21-2011, 04:09 PM
Here in Europe

JOBS


have RULES.

CONTRACTS have rules.

If the Rules dont abide by the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW the COntract is illegal and Voided.

Well The NBA Rules that those players sign, WOULDNT BE FIT in any civilized country, so i assume if a federal Judge wanted to go chase their balls hard they could probably find out that those rules are AGAINST Usa constitution too.


You can keep watching the shortsighted "they are payed millions" **** while i will keep watching at the larger scale problem that there is in the way american sports are ruled .


Hmm... constitutional law say that every person has the freedom of speech and they can say whatever they want to whoever they want as long as it doesn't present imminent harm (ie, yelling 'fire' in a movie theatre)... but, jobs have insubordination rules where if i tell off my boss, i can be fired... not unconstitutional, but still outside the parameters of what's allowed that job...


And i will repeat again?

Parity?

If you put a burger restaurant side by side with a MCdonalds and obviously since you dont have ads in national tv, nor fame nor anything, you are losing money whos going to put a gun in mcdonalds owner and tell him, hey man you have to share your benefit with your poor burguer competitor and you also have to make your burgers to taste worse and pay national tv ads to your competition, because this is not fair, is not parity.

It woudlnt happen, wouldnt it? i mean thats C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

the problem with your analogy is you completely separate the two businesses... the nba does not.. the teams need each other in order to play games... they are connected... the big market teams make money when the small market teams come to town... and vise versa...


Im heavily surprised Edgar Hoover never put his dogs agaisnt the Pro leagues because , Draft, Max salarys, Salary Cap and the rest of the "parity" crap is another word for C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

And btw, communist country citizens are SLAVES.

well, since you're surprised... that says it all, doesn't it?

it's a company, get over it... it's not some entitlement and constitutional right to play in the nba...

AsfanSince99
10-21-2011, 04:14 PM
Except it's not like that, at all...

We have more merit discussing what's racist and what's not than Bryant Gumbel and these millionaires have talking about being slaves.
right on!
I find it offensive that Gumball would inject slavery and plantation owners into a basketball lockout, which pairs multi-millionaires, regardless of race, against one another. For a respected journalist, this is the most asinine statement he's ever made.

And for the record, I'm a basketball fan, but I couldn't care less if they missed the entire season. I have football and college basketball to fall back on.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:19 PM
^ would the law allow a company to make their workers work 16 hours a day?

It wouldnt ( well at least i hope it wouldnt even if a wet dream of tea partyish people).

Well, a contract that tells you WERE YOU HAVE to work to enter the company is legal ( draft) what is not legal is to stablish rules that once you have FULLFILLED your original contract do not allow you to move somwhere else if you are being offered a job.

State can also stablish a minimum salary ( im certain that in usa there is something like this like in " in the state of california the minimum that you can pay to your worker is x dollars an hour/week/month)

But im damm sure theres NO LAW that LIMITS the amount that you can offer a worker to do its job " sorry MR lawyer x you cant join Brett/michaels buffet CANT offer you more money than Mcdonalds so you joing their staff"

So max salary is illegal.


Salary Cap?

Sorry Mr Gates , you cant get more Highly qualified workers to Microsoft becaus eyou would exceed the Salary cap payroll, because we have to make competition fair and Fonysoft needs to have their own highly wualified technicians even if they
would want to work for you.

ILLEGAL.

and so on and on.

ink
10-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Here in Europe

JOBS


have RULES.

CONTRACTS have rules.

If the Rules dont abide by the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW the COntract is illegal and Voided.

Well The NBA Rules that those players sign, WOULDNT BE FIT in any civilized country, so i assume if a federal Judge wanted to go chase their balls hard they could probably find out that those rules are AGAINST Usa constitution too.


You can keep watching the shortsighted "they are payed millions" **** while i will keep watching at the larger scale problem that there is in the way american sports are ruled .

And i will repeat again?

Parity?

If you put a burger restaurant side by side with a MCdonalds and obviously since you dont have ads in national tv, nor fame nor anything, you are losing money whos going to put a gun in mcdonalds owner and tell him, hey man you have to share your benefit with your poor burguer competitor and you also have to make your burgers to taste worse and pay national tv ads to your competition, because this is not fair, is not parity.

It woudlnt happen, wouldnt it? i mean thats C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

Im heavily surprised Edgar Hoover never put his dogs agaisnt the Pro leagues because , Draft, Max salarys, Salary Cap and the rest of the "parity" crap is another word for C:O:M:U:N:I:S:M

And btw, communist country citizens are SLAVES.

None of that has anything to do with slavery. If people are going to completely misuse the word "slave" why not apply it to traffic laws, theft laws, murder laws, etc? Nobody is "free" to break any of those rules, which btw the average citizen never had any say in the negotiation of. By COMPLETE contrast, NBA players had TWO LEVELS of say with which to control the conditions they work under: 1. the CBA, and, 2. their over-inflated contract. Who forced them to sign? No one. Who forced them to negotiate? No one. But if they want a job, like anyone else, they have to abide by the rules. Rules, which they had a hand in defining.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:38 PM
None of that has anything to do with slavery. If people are going to completely misuse the word "slave" why not apply it to traffic laws, theft laws, murder laws, etc? Nobody is "free" to break any of those rules, which btw the average citizen never had any say in the negotiation of. By COMPLETE contrast, NBA players had TWO LEVELS of say with which to control the conditions they work under: 1. the CBA, and, 2. their over-inflated contract. Who forced them to sign? No one. Who forced them to negotiate? No one. But if they want a job, like anyone else, they have to abide by the rules. Rules, which they had a hand in defining.

The proble is when those rules are ILLEGAL/INCONSTITUTIONAL, thats where im pointint at.

ink
10-21-2011, 04:41 PM
The proble is when those rules are ILLEGAL/INCONSTITUTIONAL, thats where im pointint at.

Since most agents are also lawyers, I'm sure the legality of the CBA and player's contracts would have been challenged by now if that were true in any way. They haven't, because they're not unconstitutional. If you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms. Their agents and player reps ensure that all points in their SIGNED contracts serve their clients.

The players are virtually the opposite of slaves. They are often overpaid prima donnas.

Shmontaine
10-21-2011, 04:43 PM
^ would the law allow a company to make their workers work 16 hours a day?

It wouldnt ( well at least i hope it wouldnt even if a wet dream of tea partyish people).

Well, a contract that tells you WERE YOU HAVE to work to enter the company is legal ( draft) what is not legal is to stablish rules that once you have FULLFILLED your original contract do not allow you to move somwhere else if you are being offered a job.

it happens in all companies with branches around the country... sorry... just because sears/ olive garden/ khols are in every state, doesn't mean you can say to your boss, transfer me to the florida store... it doesn't work that way... you go to your boss, 'im moving to florida and would like to work at the florida branch'... IF THERES A POSITION THERE FOR YOU... it's not your right..


State can also stablish a minimum salary ( im certain that in usa there is something like this like in " in the state of california the minimum that you can pay to your worker is x dollars an hour/week/month)

listen, there's a national minimum wage... every state has it.. it's common knowledge... this just shows how little you know about america...


But im damm sure theres NO LAW that LIMITS the amount that you can offer a worker to do its job " sorry MR lawyer x you cant join Brett/michaels buffet CANT offer you more money than Mcdonalds so you joing their staff"

So max salary is illegal.


Salary Cap?

Sorry Mr Gates , you cant get more Highly qualified workers to Microsoft becaus eyou would exceed the Salary cap payroll, because we have to make competition fair and Fonysoft needs to have their own highly wualified technicians even if they
would want to work for you.

ILLEGAL.

and so on and on.

wtf!! this **** isn't that hard to understand... the teams AND PLAYERS agree to the CBA and agree to work under the conditions set forth... they aren't forced to play in the nba... you don't have a clue...

ink
10-21-2011, 04:46 PM
wtf!! this **** isn't that hard to understand... the teams AND PLAYERS agree to the CBA and agree to work under the conditions set forth... they aren't forced to play in the nba... you don't have a clue... so keep talking about europe like it's sooo much better than USA, because i don't see european teams paying players as much as the USA... maybe that's what your here trying to do, convince all nba players that america sucks and they should all live in europe with you...

I lived, studied and worked in Europe for a total of about 4 1/2 years. When I got my work visa, I signed my contract and did my job. I couldn't demand a transfer somewhere else. I couldn't change the terms of the agreement after I signed. It's the same there as it is here.

Sad but true fact lol: bosses everywhere expect you to show up for work and do your job when they pay you the agreed upon amount.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:47 PM
Since most agents are also lawyers, I'm sure the legality of the CBA and player's contracts would have been challenged by now if that were true in any way. They haven't, because they're not unconstitutional. If you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms. Their agents and player reps ensure that all points in their SIGNED contracts serve their clients.

The players are virtually the opposite of slaves. They are often overpaid prima donnas.

Were there lawers in negotiations in the 40s and 50s?

it took them a quite looooooooooooooooooooooong time to realize that pro leagues not accepting black players was ILLEGAL and INCONSTITUtIONAL.


But thanks god, someone had the balls to bring it up one day and they had to allow it.


The lawyers in the negotiations are more worried bout their paychecks than in going into the depths of the matter.

In fact if players realized that THEY HOLD THE ULTIMATE POWER , it woudl be game over for owners, because they Would DEMMAND to be treated like Players in the rest of the world do, COMPELTE FREE MARKET.

At the end of the day, ITS THE PLAYERS who put people in the stands that generate the money.

I wouldnt go to an arena to watch Dan gilbert, and neither woudl you.

the worse players have an urge to get a paycheck? ok then cave in , get your pants down and let the owners stick it to them .

As logn as the TOP OF THE TOP the Creme of the creme players dont cAVE in, and even better COME HERE TO EUROPE, to crfeate here a new market with better rules that will in mid term pay them similar salarys they eran now , the league woudl be ****ed.

Would you pay to watch a raptors where the best paleyr is saer sene?

Players have the power, problem is they are too Scared to really use it.

BcEuAbRsS
10-21-2011, 04:48 PM
I will go work on a plantation if I were to get paid millions... I dont understand the slave comparison to someone whom is getting paid that much money... even if its league minimum thats still vastly more than standard America... the comparison would actually piss me off if I had ancestors whom were held under slavery...

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:49 PM
it happens in all companies with branches around the country... sorry... just because sears/ olive garden/ khols are in every state, doesn't mean you can say to your boss, transfer me to the florida store... it doesn't work that way... you go to your boss, 'im moving to florida and would like to work at the florida branch'... IF THERES A POSITION THERE FOR YOU... it's not your right..

YES THERE IS A POSITION FOR YOU, THERES A POSITION SAY IN LAKERS and you are fed up of MAGIC.



listen, there's a national minimum wage... every state has it.. it's common knowledge... this just shows how little you know about america...
THAT EXACTLY WHAT I STATED



wtf!! this **** isn't that hard to understand... the teams AND PLAYERS agree to the CBA and agree to work under the conditions set forth... they aren't forced to play in the nba... you don't have a clue...

.

ink
10-21-2011, 04:49 PM
Were there lawers in negotiations in the 40s and 50s?

It's doubtful there were negotiations at that time. We're not talking about the 40's and 50's, we're talking about now.

CBA. Contract. Overpaid employee, not slave. Done.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:51 PM
I lived, studied and worked in Europe for a total of about 4 1/2 years. When I got my work visa, I signed my contract and did my job. I couldn't demand a transfer somewhere else. I couldn't change the terms of the agreement after I signed. It's the same there as it is here.

Sad but true fact lol: bosses everywhere expect you to show up for work and do your job when they pay you the agreed upon amount.

When you ENDED YOUR CONTRACT you were free to walk somewhere else?

Well Dwight howard is finishing his contract this next summer.

If OWNERS GET THEIR way he WONT BE ABLE to sign anywhere but Orlando.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:52 PM
It's doubtful there were negotiations at that time. We're not talking about the 40's and 50's, we're talking about now.

CBA. Contract. Overpaid employee, not slave. Done.

REally? well i woudl LOVE to hear HOW MUCH MONEY does KOBE BRYANT generate for the lakers, then see how much he earns. :rolleyes:

ink
10-21-2011, 04:52 PM
When you ENDED YOUR CONTRACT you were free to walk somewhere else?

Well Dwight howard is finishing his contract this next summer.

If OWNERS GET THEIR way he WONT BE ABLE to sign anywhere but Orlando.

It's their league. They are allowed to abide by the rules BOTH parties agree to. The conditions the players have signed off on in the past include restrictions of free agency.

What part of ""negotiation", agreement", and "signature" isn't clear here man?

ink
10-21-2011, 04:55 PM
REally? well i woudl LOVE to hear HOW MUCH MONEY does KOBE BRYANT generate for the lakers, then see how much he earns. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, Larry Coon put out an overpaid players list recently and Kobe ended up on the top 10 list, overpaid by almost $10M.


Most overpaid
Player #NBArank Expected Salary Actual Salary
Michael Redd, MIL 252 $3,712,735 $18,300,000
Rashard Lewis, WAS 144 $6,961,039 $19,573,711
Gilbert Arenas, ORL 172 $5,914,274 $17,730,694
Eddy Curry, N/A 493 $913,154 $11,596,822
Peja Stojakovic, DAL 248 $3,800,181 $14,034,483
Vince Carter, PHX 121 $7,958,008 $17,522,375
Kobe Bryant, LAL 7 $15,450,923 $24,806,250
Andrei Kirilenko, UTH 90 $9,531,563 $17,823,000
Troy Murphy, GS/BOS 263 $3,484,494 $11,657,324
Kenyon Martin, DEN 102 $8,888,593 $16,545,454

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/salaries-111019/

Shmontaine
10-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Were there lawers in negotiations in the 40s and 50s?

it took them a quite looooooooooooooooooooooong time to realize that pro leagues not accepting black players was ILLEGAL and INCONSTITUtIONAL.


But thanks god, someone had the balls to bring it up one day and they had to allow it.


The lawyers in the negotiations are more worried bout their paychecks than in going into the depths of the matter.

In fact if players realized that THEY HOLD THE ULTIMATE POWER , it woudl be game over for owners, because they Would DEMMAND to be treated like Players in the rest of the world do, COMPELTE FREE MARKET.

At the end of the day, ITS THE PLAYERS who put people in the stands that generate the money.

I wouldnt go to an arena to watch Dan gilbert, and neither woudl you.

the worse players have an urge to get a paycheck? ok then cave in , get your pants down and let the owners stick it to them .

As logn as the TOP OF THE TOP the Creme of the creme players dont cAVE in, and even better COME HERE TO EUROPE, to crfeate here a new market with better rules that will in mid term pay them similar salarys they eran now , the league woudl be ****ed.

Would you pay to watch a raptors where the best paleyr is saer sene?

Players have the power, problem is they are too Scared to really use it.

i had a feeling this was your agenda from the get go... you come in here and talk trash about the league and america because you want these players in europe... sorry, buddy... it aint happening... it's pretty laughable, actually.. and dumb...

"come to europe!!! spend 3-4 years creating a market and maybe you will get paid as much as you do in the us, except for those 3-4 years (or 25% or your career)... " great idea...

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:56 PM
It's their league. They are allowed to abide by the rules BOTH parties agree to. The conditions the players have signed off on in the past include restrictions of free agency.

What part of ""negotiation", agreement", and "signature" isn't clear here man?

( disclaimer this is an exagerated example, ok, its apity i have to warn it becaus epeople here tend to dont understand a **** and not be able to get out of their square preset shorsighted point of view)
Can you sign a contract with someone that allows him to beat your *** everyday, blow him up, have to eat his poo etc etc?

Nope is illegal so the contract is invalid .

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 04:58 PM
i had a feeling this was your agenda from the get go... you come in here and talk trash about the league and america because you want these players in europe... sorry, buddy... it aint happening... it's pretty laughable, actually.. and dumb...

"come to europe!!! spend 3-4 years creating a market and maybe you will get paid as much as you do in the us, except for those 3-4 years (or 25% or your career)... " great idea...

where exaclty i have trashtalked america?


In fact what im critizizing is that the supposed "parity" rules are COMPLETELY THE OPPOSSITE of what USA FOUNDATION is bout.

ink
10-21-2011, 04:59 PM
( disclaimer this is an exagerated example, ok, its apity i have to warn it becaus epeople here tend to dont understand a **** and not be able to get out of their square preset shorsighted point of view)

Can you sign a contract with someone that allows him to beat your *** everyday, blow him up, have to eat his poo etc etc?

Nope is illegal so the contract is invalid .

You're right, that is exaggerated. :eyebrow:

btw, even the spoiled stars of the league aren't complaining about work conditions. Why? Because, far from being slaves, they are pampered in the extreme: something that is driving up operations costs.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 05:01 PM
You're right, that is exaggerated. :eyebrow:

btw, even the spoiled stars of the league aren't complaining about work conditions. Why? Because, far from being slaves, they are pampered in the extreme: something that is driving up operations costs.

Btw, being a canadian dont you find ironic that the fans are crying for rules that ensure that every team makes money, every team "competes"

when most american population is AGAINST a sotial security system that allows all of their citizens to have acces to Health for the good of the colective?

CTCUBBIES
10-21-2011, 05:01 PM
Gumbel is a fool for comparing the two. Forget the money, fame, power the comes from being an NBA player - the biggest difference between a slave and a player is CHOICE. If a player doesn't like his situation he can get a different damn job. If a slave doesn't like his he gets whipped or hanged. There are a lot of bad things that have been done to African Americans in the history of the world - the NBA is not one of them.

CTCUBBIES
10-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Btw, being a canadian dont you find ironic that the fans are crying for rules that ensure that every team makes money, every team "competes"

when most american population is AGAINST a sotial security system that allows all of their citizens to have acces to Health for the good of the colective?

No I don't think it's ironic at all. People don't want sports to be like real life. We want to follow and watch sports to escape from real life so I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

Shmontaine
10-21-2011, 05:05 PM
where exaclty i have trashtalked america?


In fact what im critizizing is that the supposed "parity" rules are COMPLETELY THE OPPOSSITE of what USA FOUNDATION is bout.

i guess you didn't talk despairingly at all about america and it's society, which you claim supports and endorses unconstitutional and communistic ideas, and embraces slavery...

Shmontaine
10-21-2011, 05:06 PM
Btw, being a canadian dont you find ironic that the fans are crying for rules that ensure that every team makes money, every team "competes"

when most american population is AGAINST a sotial security system that allows all of their citizens to have acces to Health for the good of the colective?

stop watching fox news...

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 05:08 PM
stop watching fox news...

wouldnt touch that with a 10 foot pole :D

dont need too.

its been 4 years and Obama hasnt been able to start the program because of the heavy oposition not only from congress but on the streets too.

ink
10-21-2011, 05:09 PM
Btw, being a canadian dont you find ironic that the fans are crying for rules that ensure that every team makes money, every team "competes"

when most american population is AGAINST a sotial security system that allows all of their citizens to have acces to Health for the good of the colective?

That's where a lot of people are getting confused. And I don't have any problem with setting up rules for the sake of the collective good.

But there's a big difference between what a corporate entity does internally and what the government does. As I understand it, most Americans just hate the government telling them what to do. All kinds of businesses do as they please internally. And these contract/CBA issues are internal business issues. They're just publicized because of the public nature of the sport.

ManRam
10-21-2011, 06:36 PM
Crooner is on some other **** in this thread. Yikes...

NYKalltheway
10-21-2011, 07:40 PM
If rich guys in towns with unused arenas decide to start up a league with free market rules I'm pretty sure 99% of the players would jump ship as well as 30% of the owners..

This is basically the message Crooner wants to send

bagwell368
10-21-2011, 09:48 PM
i love hearing white guys talking about racism and black men, its like me trying to explain rocket science.

What a narrow view. How about a white guy that had two parents snatched up from comfortable lives and stuck in Nazi Germany - both in forced labor. One that got bombed almost every day the last few years of the war by the Allies, the other that did 28 months in Dachau at the end of the 5.5 year terrors? Neither ever recovered from the injuries of spirit, mind and emotion that they got there.

Don't you dare presume to know me by the color of my skin. Isn't that just another way in your own life you have separated yourself from me - and from justice, fairness, and an open mind? I don't care what color you are - but I find great fault with your view.

specialiststeve
10-21-2011, 09:55 PM
Gumbel trying to stir the pot. Average NBA salary 5.15 million. Slaves I think not. Just saying that with what is going on in the world shows he is completely out of touch with reality!! He should be fired and sent to a third world country to get a bit of perspective.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 10:19 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-111021/nlrb-complaint-nba-players-best-chance-end-lockout-now


FINALLY it seems those Lawyers we were talking bout have some brains.

"unfair labour practices"

yep thats more or less what i was talking bout.

GO PLAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hellcrooner
10-21-2011, 10:20 PM
And btw ANTITRUST laws are being mentioned, if someone wants to check it i called it a few pages back calling the Nba a "de facto" Monopoly.

ink
10-21-2011, 11:58 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-111021/nlrb-complaint-nba-players-best-chance-end-lockout-now


FINALLY it seems those Lawyers we were talking bout have some brains.

"unfair labour practices"

yep thats more or less what i was talking bout.

GO PLAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still a long distance away from slavery. You do see the difference between slavery and alleged anti-trust practices right?

Hellcrooner
10-22-2011, 12:18 AM
Still a long distance away from slavery. You do see the difference between slavery and alleged anti-trust practices right?

yes, but I ( and i assume the journalist in question too) have been using the word slavery as an Allegory, never as straight up comparison.
But of course people seems to be unable to that finesse line of colouring an argument.

topdog
10-22-2011, 12:39 AM
Nothing annoys me more than comparing professional athletics to slavery: 1. Have some respect and decency for those who literally worked to death while knowing their kin would be bound in perpetuity 2. If someone wants me to look like a professional (or at least not dress in another team's retro jersey) while representing their enterprise and take a paycut while I make $5M a year living out every American boy's dream, then I would say "where do I sign?" not "whitey's try'n'a keep me down... okay I went to far with that last line

ink
10-22-2011, 12:50 AM
yes, but I ( and i assume the journalist in question too) have been using the word slavery as an Allegory, never as straight up comparison.
But of course people seems to be unable to that finesse line of colouring an argument.

Even if you intend it as a metaphor, it's still the opposite of what these spoiled athletes are experiencing.

They may yet win their labour practices verdict in a labour court but that doesn't mean they're hard done by. It just means that in terms of labour relations tactics the owners botched the lockout.

A lot of fans want the lockout to reform the system. It's very possible the NBA is a hopeless case and beyond reform to the deeply flawed system.

I hope we get through the next process without an anti-trust situation and I hope we have either a long lockout to change the system, or a short lockout where the players realize how spoiled they are and how much public opinion is against them. I don't want to enable these players any more.

Hellcrooner
10-22-2011, 01:01 AM
Even if you intend it as a metaphor, it's still the opposite of what these spoiled athletes are experiencing.

They may yet win their labour practices verdict in a labour court but that doesn't mean they're hard done by. It just means that in terms of labour relations tactics the owners botched the lockout.

A lot of fans want the lockout to reform the system. It's very possible the NBA is a hopeless case and beyond reform to the deeply flawed system.

I hope we get through the next process without an anti-trust situation and I hope we have either a long lockout to change the system, or a short lockout where the players realize how spoiled they are and how much public opinion is against them. I don't want to enable these players any more.
the funniest thing of all is a hard cap ( unless they get away with franchise tag and not allowing sign and trades, wich they SHOULDNT be able to get (owners)) will create the EXACT OPOSITE situation of what the supposedly intend.

ok, so with this new system i can only get 5 million dollars a year here in ( cleveland/milwaukee/toronto/memphis/nidianapolis whatever) or get those same 5 in NY/LA/CHI with the much higher incomes from sponsors....

who do you think players are gonna choose?

Bramaca
10-22-2011, 01:19 AM
ok, so with this new system i can only get 5 million dollars a year here in ( cleveland/milwaukee/toronto/memphis/nidianapolis whatever) or get those same 5 in NY/LA/CHI with the much higher incomes from sponsors....

who do you think players are gonna choose?

Thats assuming that all those teams are at the same total salary. What happens when Milwaukee has 12 million in room and LA only has 5 million?

Anyhow, whatever system they come up with will be better then European soccer where the 'free market' has led to a third of the teams declaring bankrupcy on top of eliminating the parity that the sport used to have. Some teams have more debt load than a lot of countries. By the way, its not illegal to institute a salary cap in Europe (UEFA is considering doing that now) its just hard to implement with the numerous national leagues, etc. The European Rugby Super League already has a salary cap in place.

Hellcrooner
10-22-2011, 01:34 AM
Thats assuming that all those teams are at the same total salary. What happens when Milwaukee has 12 million in room and LA only has 5 million?

Anyhow, whatever system they come up with will be better then European soccer where the 'free market' has led to a third of the teams declaring bankrupcy on top of eliminating the parity that the sport used to have. Some teams have more debt load than a lot of countries. By the way, its not illegal to institute a salary cap in Europe (UEFA is considering doing that now) its just hard to implement with the numerous national leagues, etc. The European Rugby Super League already has a salary cap in place.


mmmm in the last 30 years only Ac Milan managed to make a back to back champions league win.

How many teams have won?

N Forest, A VIlla, Manchester Utd, Liverpool, Barcelona, Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Inter, Bayern, Borussia, Porto, Steaua, Red Star, Marseille, Ajax, Psv.

17 teams.


Nba?

Lakers ( with a threepeat and 2 back to backs)
Bulls ( with two threepeats)
Pistons ( with a back to back)
Celtics
Sixers
Rockets ( back to back)
Spurs
Heat
Mavs

9 teams total.

Yeah yeah free market is soooooooooooooo inneficient to bring parity.:rolleyes:

NYKalltheway
10-22-2011, 01:37 AM
Salary cap is not illegal in Europe but it's not used because it will become illegal after 2 years if the market grows rapidly. "Trades" are

Trace
10-22-2011, 02:05 AM
:rolleyes:

So every other profession that requires a strict dress code and professional conduct is akin to slavery?

In addition, NBA players have high labour mobility within the market versus little or 0 labour mobility available to slaves.

This comparison has 0 logical basis and is quite slanderous to say the least.

Bramaca
10-22-2011, 02:13 AM
mmmm in the last 30 years only Ac Milan managed to make a back to back champions league win.

How many teams have won?

N Forest, A VIlla, Manchester Utd, Liverpool, Barcelona, Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Inter, Bayern, Borussia, Porto, Steaua, Red Star, Marseille, Ajax, Psv.

17 teams.

When you are talking about a league that has single elimination games and 438 member teams its not exactly impressive.

The amount of debt and bankruptcy's among soccer teams in Europe is impressive though. The 'free market' has resulted in players getting many times more then they are actually worth. Maybe thats why UEFA has taken their first step towards a more restrictive system by making a rule where teams have to operate at atleast the break even point. Using a league as broken as UEFA as an example of how it should be is not very convincing.

NYKalltheway
10-22-2011, 02:31 AM
438 teams? :p

It's 32. And UEFA is not a "league"

Hellcrooner
10-22-2011, 02:54 AM
When you are talking about a league that has single elimination games and 438 member teams its not exactly impressive.

The amount of debt and bankruptcy's among soccer teams in Europe is impressive though. The 'free market' has resulted in players getting many times more then they are actually worth. Maybe thats why UEFA has taken their first step towards a more restrictive system by making a rule where teams have to operate at atleast the break even point. Using a league as broken as UEFA as an example of how it should be is not very convincing.

if y ou want to play that card ill play.


You do realize that euroleague uses each year the top 3 or 4 teams from each nationatl league.

Well you got to understand that Spain has the population of CALIFORNIA, that germany has the population of i dont now...Texas? and so on and on.

you can be DAMM SURE that if Nba was comprised of the first three qualified of the previous years STATE leagues of California, Ny, florida , Montana etc etc the number of teams participating each year woudl be very similar as it is in uefa, i mean Lakers, clippers, Warriors would be representing california very often because thats how things work.

Big markets are big markets.

Bramaca
10-22-2011, 11:53 AM
if y ou want to play that card ill play.


You do realize that euroleague uses each year the top 3 or 4 teams from each nationatl league.

Well you got to understand that Spain has the population of CALIFORNIA, that germany has the population of i dont now...Texas? and so on and on.

you can be DAMM SURE that if Nba was comprised of the first three qualified of the previous years STATE leagues of California, Ny, florida , Montana etc etc the number of teams participating each year woudl be very similar as it is in uefa, i mean Lakers, clippers, Warriors would be representing california very often because thats how things work.

Big markets are big markets.

I realize how euroleague is set up. I also realize that since the Bosman ruling in 96 (the real start of the 'free market') the talent pool of players has been consolidated to only a handful of teams.

I've also noticed that in the process of making your case regarding a 'free market' and the players getting what they are worth you have failed to acknowledge that UEFA is a financial disaster where the players are getting many times more then they are actually worth, forcing teams into debt that they will either never get out of or into bankruptcy. The system that UEFA has is more of a failure then anything in NA and is why they are looking for any way to curb spending and why players are going on strike because they aren't getting paid.

mzgrizz
10-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Wow.........Bryant Gumbel just blasted David Stern

mike_noodles
10-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Of course, the race card had to come out. :facepalm:

NBA is a global sport. White America must hate on Germany then too, since Dirk won't get to play this year, and Lithuania, and Argentina, and Spain, and, etc... Pulling the race card is a joke, and it's things like this that keep racism alive and well.

Describing Stern as a plantation overseer is a racist comment in itself. Last time I checked, slaves didn't get to live in mansions, take helicopters to work, drive expensive cars, etc...

And the reason people hate on NBA salaries so much is that if you have half a good season, you'll get $7 million per year. Have one good year, $12 million per year. Injury plagued??? Doesn't matter, two good years = max contract. (This is on the owners as much as it is the NBAPA).

And last, the NBA has the biggest group of cry babies in all of pro sports, white, black, brown, yellow, red, green and purple, cry babies.

NYKalltheway
10-22-2011, 12:35 PM
I realize how euroleague is set up. I also realize that since the Bosman ruling in 96 (the real start of the 'free market') the talent pool of players has been consolidated to only a handful of teams.

I've also noticed that in the process of making your case regarding a 'free market' and the players getting what they are worth you have failed to acknowledge that UEFA is a financial disaster where the players are getting many times more then they are actually worth, forcing teams into debt that they will either never get out of or into bankruptcy. The system that UEFA has is more of a failure then anything in NA and is why they are looking for any way to curb spending and why players are going on strike because they aren't getting paid.


Your saying half the truth. The other half, the most important one, is that most of the teams that have huge debts are those who were bought by foreigner (mainly non Europeans) like Man Utd by the Glazers, Liverpool by Hicks and Gillette earlier etc

Teams generate a lot of income, especially those who are in the Champions League as it's a great revenue source with TV rights and bonuses upon entry and prize money after each win/draw and qualifications.

If some teams are greedy, unrealistic and take loans to improve their club within a month, then it's on them. Not UEFA's fault if they can't keep track of their finances or be realistic and realize that they won't overachieve in either playing success or tickets sold etc
What makes European/global SPORTS (not just soccer, it's every sport) better than American is the vertical divisions setting. If teams know that they will lose a lot of money upon relegation, they will thoroughly make their moves in order to stay in a position to keep their team at the desired level and also keep their finances in order.

As for the NBA, the reports say that 22 teams are losing money. Wanna compare that to UEFA Champions League's 32?

ManRam
10-22-2011, 12:50 PM
Unfair labor practices = slavery. Duh!

This is a mind-numbing debate here. I can't believe people are seriously trying to say it's slavery...and the said thing is, this isn't the first time Crooner has made the parallels.

Sactown
10-22-2011, 12:56 PM
Everyone who agrees this is slavery is slapping every person who was a real slave in our past in the face... this is ridiculous... don't like it players? then GTFO!

sixer04fan
10-22-2011, 12:58 PM
Unfair labor practices = slavery. Duh!

This is a mind-numbing debate here. I can't believe people are seriously trying to say it's slavery...and the said thing is, this isn't the first time Crooner has made the parallels.

It really is sad and pathetic

Tony_Starks
10-22-2011, 06:33 PM
Race plays a role in it but not as big a role as greed. Deep down there's still a lot of people that hate to see guys who are young, black, cocky, and what they consider "thugs" making tons of money but of course no one will ever admit that. That being said though I don't think race is the main ingredient in this situation, even though I never hear anyone complaining about how much A-Rod or Tom Brady makes......

magichatnumber9
10-22-2011, 06:49 PM
Pharaoh let my people go.

fishfan79
10-22-2011, 06:54 PM
person that called him that is the raciest. Calling an individual a plantation holder to bring forth a racial response when an individual is making millions upon millions of dollars on contracts is not only crazy but pure ignorance.

Tom Stone
10-22-2011, 07:05 PM
David Stern, does a great job and always has.....if you were to meet him in real life, you would probably really like him, because he's respectful, even if you pulled the race card, he would still act respectful with you, but deep down he would feel a little bad for you, because of your disposition, I know I do.

Bramaca
10-22-2011, 09:17 PM
Your saying half the truth. The other half, the most important one, is that most of the teams that have huge debts are those who were bought by foreigner (mainly non Europeans) like Man Utd by the Glazers, Liverpool by Hicks and Gillette earlier etc

Teams generate a lot of income, especially those who are in the Champions League as it's a great revenue source with TV rights and bonuses upon entry and prize money after each win/draw and qualifications.

If some teams are greedy, unrealistic and take loans to improve their club within a month, then it's on them. Not UEFA's fault if they can't keep track of their finances or be realistic and realize that they won't overachieve in either playing success or tickets sold etc

I have read a fair amount about the finances of the euro teams, especially champions league. Basically the top ten teams or so have put themselves in billions of dollars worth of debt that many of them have no chance of getting out of. They have been described as sports version of the american banking system, too big to fail.


What makes European/global SPORTS (not just soccer, it's every sport) better than American is the vertical divisions setting. If teams know that they will lose a lot of money upon relegation, they will thoroughly make their moves in order to stay in a position to keep their team at the desired level and also keep their finances in order.

I actually enjoy the vertical division thing and wouldn't mind seeing it tried over here. Although I hate the many random competitions.


As for the NBA, the reports say that 22 teams are losing money. Wanna compare that to UEFA Champions League's 32?

I wouldn't mind seeing a good comparison. The NBA may not be operating that well but everything I have seen about uefa doesn't paint a better picture.

rickshaw
10-22-2011, 10:08 PM
any player of any sport playing OUTSIDE USa

1) can choose wich team he wants to play for from the start.
2) doesnt need to finish his contract to go somwhere else, just needs an agreemente between both the clubs on the money.
3) can join whoever they want in their team because there is no salary cap.
4) once his contract is done he can join whoever he wants, no restrictions.
5) can earn as much money as he wants, theres not a maximum salary that can be offered, market rules that.
6) doesnt need to finish his contract to rise the amount he is earning, it can be renegotiated and prolonged at any time.
7) the benefits of the merchandise with his name or face in it goes TO HIS OWN POCKET unless he has negotiated otherwise with his team.,
8) can start beng a pro since 14-16 yeaars old deppenidng on the country,

so, read it all again and tell me Nba players arent slaves IN COMPARISON.

I wasn't aware players in America weren't allowed to go overseas to freedom loving leagues. Also the players union agrees to all those things to help benefit all the players.