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JordansBulls
10-14-2011, 05:24 PM
Voting for #46 has concluded and PSD's Official #46 NBA Player of all time is....

Sam Jones

Top 3 Voting:

Sam Jones = 8 votes
Dave Cowens = 6 votes
Elvin Hayes = 5 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)
30. Patrick Ewing (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649815)
31. Bob Cousy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=650318)
32. Walt Frazier (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651181)
33. Clyde Drexler (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651737)
34. Gary Payton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652073)
35. Jason Kidd (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652644)
36. Kevin Mchale (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653111)
37. Allen Iverson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653515)
38. Steve Nash (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654056)
39. Bill Walton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654694)
40. George Gervin (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655171)
41. Willis Reed (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655768)
42. Dominique Wilkins (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=656588)
43. Reggie Miller (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657146)
44. James Worthy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658798)
45. Paul Pierce (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=659479)
46. Sam Jones (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=660017)


Voting will now begin for the #47 NBA Player All Time


These are the players that can be voted for the #47 spot.


Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Pau Gasol
Artis Gilmore
Hal Greer
Anfernee Hardaway
Tim Hardaway
Grant Hill

JordansBulls
10-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Took Wes Unseld here, gave the Bullets it's only title in franchise history and won a league and finals mvp in his career.

OGMarkWahlberg
10-14-2011, 07:18 PM
Elvin Hayes ... look at the dudes career how are people voting for Pau Gasol over Alonzo Mourning?

Bruno
10-14-2011, 07:33 PM
How many guys from the "Top 50 players" from the 1990's won't make our list? Are we capping this at top 50 JB?

Bruno
10-14-2011, 07:42 PM
I took Parish. Absurd longevity (all-time leader in regular season games played), four-time NBA champion (*'97 Bulls), top seven in total rebounds, #24 in all-time points scored, top 20 in total win-shares, with surprisingly high regular season peaks (in 1981 when Boston won the title he lead the Celtics in regular season PER, WS and WS/48, his PER was nearly six points higher than Birds for the regular season. The Celtics won the title, DJ won finals MVP. Parish finished 4th in 1982 MVP voting, 7th in 1981).

If he doesn't go here, he has to at least crack our top 50.

Bruno
10-14-2011, 07:51 PM
Hayes also has to crack our top 50, despite how inefficient he was when scoring the ball. He finished top five in MVP voting on three separate occasions during the 1970's, NBA champion, 8th all-time in total points scored, top 20 in total blocks, 6th in total career rebounds, 7th all time in defensive win-shares.

Bruno
10-14-2011, 07:59 PM
Took Wes Unseld here, gave the Bullets it's only title in franchise history and won a league and finals mvp in his career.

I know you're a fan of mentioning the fact that Gasol lead the 2010 Lakers in playoff win-shares and WS/48, despite Bryant winning Finals MVP.

The same thing applies to Unseld/Hayes during their '78 title run, but to a greater extent (Hayes led in playoff PER, WS, WS/48).

Unseld: PER: 14.5. WS, 3.1. WS/48, 0.169.
Hayes: PER, 20.3. WS, 2.0, WS/48, 0.144.

I'm gona go out on a limb here and say that Unselds 1978 playoff PER of 14.5 is the lowest of any Finals MVP in league history. It could be argued that Hayes was more valuable during the playoff run, despite Unseld walking away with F-MVP.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1978.html

Bravo95
10-14-2011, 08:04 PM
Hayes.

bagwell368
10-14-2011, 08:16 PM
I took Parish. Absurd longevity (all-time leader in regular season games played), four-time NBA champion (*'97 Bulls), top seven in total rebounds, #24 in all-time points scored, top 20 in total win-shares, with surprisingly high regular season peaks (in 1981 when Boston won the title he lead the Celtics in regular season PER, WS and WS/48, his PER was nearly six points higher than Birds for the regular season. The Celtics won the title, Bird took over in the playoffs and won Finals MVP for the Celtics. Parish finished 4th in 1982 MVP voting, 7th in 1981).

If he doesn't go here, he has to at least crack our top 50.

I like Parish here too; Gilmore, Mourning, KJ, Cowens also interesting.

Trust this 45 year long fan, Hayes doesn't belong here except on paper.

Bruno
10-14-2011, 08:19 PM
I like Parish here too; Gilmore, Mourning, KJ, Cowens also interesting.

Trust this 45 year long fan, Hayes doesn't belong here except on paper.

You'd know better than me, I haven't taken the time to watch any Hayes footage, only his numbers. I scanned the numbers from their title run and was surprised that the Finals MVPs numbers were so much lower, across the board.

theheatles
10-14-2011, 08:23 PM
Zo should make this top 50

OGMarkWahlberg
10-14-2011, 08:31 PM
Zo should make this top 50

I agree .. 1 of the only players that has my upmost respect, let alone he came into the league dominanting and was an absolute monster

OGMarkWahlberg
10-14-2011, 08:33 PM
I like Parish here too; Gilmore, Mourning, KJ, Cowens also interesting.

Trust this 45 year long fan, Hayes doesn't belong here except on paper.

To be honest with you, never seen him play ... but his numbers on paper IMO should clearly be a top 50 player. As somebody who watched him in play why you would not put him in the top 50?

JNA17
10-14-2011, 08:48 PM
Holy **** this has got to be the worst list in the history of history. How in blue hell do people here think Paul Pierce is top 50 all time? :laugh2:

I'll vote for Elvin Hayes. Who for some screwed up reason is still up in the poll. The guy should have been marked down in the top 30 wtf?

bagwell368
10-14-2011, 08:53 PM
Holy **** this has got to be the worst list in the history of history. How in blue hell do people here think Paul Pierce is top 50 all time? :laugh2:

I'll vote for Elvin Hayes. Who for some screwed up reason is still up in the poll. The guy should have been marked down in the top 30 wtf?

I've argued against PP in the Celts forum and here - because I believe too many fans do not see him clearly, but PP is head and shoulders above Elvin Hayes.

JNA17
10-14-2011, 08:56 PM
but PP is head and shoulders above Elvin Hayes.

How so?

Chronz
10-14-2011, 08:59 PM
You'd know better than me, I haven't taken the time to watch any Hayes footage, only his numbers. I scanned the numbers from their title run and was surprised that the Finals MVPs numbers were so much lower, across the board.
Yea, but the Bullets were a true team effort, they mimic the Pistons of 04 in many ways. Elvin Hayes was alot like Rasheed Wallace, both were renowned for their fadeaway J's and disappearing acts, in fact I would probably put them on the same tier. The teams most talented player but lacking the drive to fully grasp their skills. Unseld/B.Wallace provided the leadership, defense and intangibles that his frontcourt partner couldnt, and it the combination is what made the team go. It was such a team effort that at the first Wes Unseld wasnt even going to be named the F.MVP, until a recount showed otherwise.

So basically your arguing for a guy on a slightly higher level than Rasheed Wallace, with the added luster that comes from playing in the olden days of course.

Also your point about his MVP consideration is actually something his detractors have used against him. For a guy putting up those #'s and barely scratching the MVP votes during a time in which the players voted says something about you.

JNA17
10-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Also your point about his MVP consideration is actually something his detractors have used against him. For a guy putting up those #'s and barely scratching the MVP votes during a time in which the players voted says something about you.

Barley scratching MVP votes? The guy was top 10 in voting shares six times.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hayesel01.html

Chronz
10-14-2011, 09:25 PM
Barley scratching MVP votes? The guy was top 10 in voting shares six times.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hayesel01.html
Its not my argument, by my standards thats a decent showing (though not overly impressive). But thats generally what his detractors refer to as scraping by. The argument is this, that stretch with Houston that Hayes fans like to cite as statistically significant, he garnered zero MVP attention. Meaning the players didnt respect his stats enough to offset his overall value.

For his career he only got Top-3 consideration twice, and got little support outside those years. Make of it what you will but MVP shares are something I rarely hear argued for Hayes. He ranks slightly ahead of Bill Walton and behind Chris Webber by those ranks.

bagwell368
10-14-2011, 09:28 PM
To be honest with you, never seen him play ... but his numbers on paper IMO should clearly be a top 50 player. As somebody who watched him in play why you would not put him in the top 50?

It's a collection of things. He seemed to score a lot of points when his team was way up or way down, or his defender was weak.

He was soft against great players, he was timid down the stretch when he was needed - all of a sudden he wasn't open, didn't want the ball, went to the bench. Basically the bigger the situation, the more the shrinkage factor took over.

I would watch him with guys on my teams you know to pick things up, or see your guy beat on someone else's guy. None of us could stand the guy. All the exhortations and blood and guts coaching we got made it very easy for us to spot soft players. We would ask ourselves how the heck can't anyone see this guy sucks? What's with the MVP voting?

People talk about his fat rebounding numbers. When he started and the five years previous 6' 8" guys would routinely get 15 or even 20 RPG. But by todays standards he's similar to Brand or McDyess. Good even very good, not all time great.

Shooting? Please. The guy is 4th all time in FGA, 3 years #1, 7 more years top 10. Never once top 10 FG%. Volume chucker. He didn't shoot fouls that well either.

On the good side he played a long time and was very healthy and led the league in minutes played a few times.

The fact that he's #1 in DWS in '73-'74 ahead of Cowens and Lanier - says a lot more about the brokeness of that stat in that era then what he did that year. No way he topped those guys.

Keep this in mind, he was traded for Jack Marin after his 3rd year in the league. Marin was a good guard, but in that era of no 3's you don't trade a great 4/5 for a good guard, you trade a great guard for a meh big.

There was a lot of chatter that he was trouble in locker room. Unseld and him hated each other when they played for the Bullets, that I do remember.

Read this: http://www.truthaboutit.net/2009/09/elvin-hayes-versus-wes-unseld.html

bagwell368
10-14-2011, 09:32 PM
Yea, but the Bullets were a true team effort, they mimic the Pistons of 04 in many ways. Elvin Hayes was alot like Rasheed Wallace, both were renowned for their fadeaway J's and disappearing acts, in fact I would probably put them on the same tier. The teams most talented player but lacking the drive to fully grasp their skills. Unseld/B.Wallace provided the leadership, defense and intangibles that his frontcourt partner couldnt, and it the combination is what made the team go. It was such a team effort that at the first Wes Unseld wasnt even going to be named the F.MVP, until a recount showed otherwise.

So basically your arguing for a guy on a slightly higher level than Rasheed Wallace, with the added luster that comes from playing in the olden days of course.

Also your point about his MVP consideration is actually something his detractors have used against him. For a guy putting up those #'s and barely scratching the MVP votes during a time in which the players voted says something about you.

That's a very apt comparison. Nice.

bagwell368
10-14-2011, 09:37 PM
How so?

Hayes got dealt for Jack Marin after his 3rd year.

That's like Pierce getting dealt after 2000-2001 for Antonio Daniels

Hellcrooner
10-14-2011, 10:13 PM
voting pau again.... at this number it starts not being a homer pick but a legit option.

And to the guy telling zo is better than pau i have an ill Kidney telling otherwise.

JNA17
10-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Hayes got dealt for Jack Marin after his 3rd year.

That's like Pierce getting dealt after 2000-2001 for Antonio Daniels

Kobe Bryant got dealt for Divac.

Pau Gasol got dealt for Kwame Brown.

Kareem got dealt for Elmore Smith and Brain Winters.

Babe Ruth got traded to the Yankees for a play.

Please don't tell me a guy getting traded all of a sudden means he's not an all time player. :confused:

RevisIsland
10-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Is Pau Gasol really getting votes here?

bagwell368
10-15-2011, 01:40 PM
Please don't tell me a guy getting traded all of a sudden means he's not an all time player. :confused:

Please read post #20 before you aim yourself at a one line toss away post as opposed to one with lots of meat in it.

You that didn't see him only know from stats. I saw the guy, he was a stiff.

Looks like Hayes wins here, which like PP is a bit of a relief - then the folks that use BR as a basis for making judgements (you know the guys that have been watching the NBA for a whole 8 years will take their opinions with them.

LOL making judgements and tossing insults by people who never even saw 80% of the guys on the list. Some of these votes have been ironic and annoying at the same time.

bagwell368
10-15-2011, 01:43 PM
dupe