PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Official #45 NBA Player of All-Time



JordansBulls
10-10-2011, 05:38 PM
Voting for #44 has concluded and PSD's Official #44 NBA Player of all time is....

James Worthy

Top 2 Voting:

James Worthy = 12 votes
Paul Pierce = 10 votes
Sam Jones = 7 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)
30. Patrick Ewing (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649815)
31. Bob Cousy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=650318)
32. Walt Frazier (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651181)
33. Clyde Drexler (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651737)
34. Gary Payton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652073)
35. Jason Kidd (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652644)
36. Kevin Mchale (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653111)
37. Allen Iverson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653515)
38. Steve Nash (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654056)
39. Bill Walton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654694)
40. George Gervin (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655171)
41. Willis Reed (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655768)
42. Dominique Wilkins (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=656588)
43. Reggie Miller (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657146)
44. James Worthy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658798)


Voting will now begin for the #45 NBA Player All Time


These are the players that can be voted for the #45 spot.


Sam Jones
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
Artis Gilmore
Hal Greer
Anfernee Hardaway
Tim Hardaway
Grant Hill

JordansBulls
10-10-2011, 05:41 PM
VOTE: I took Sam Jones. Integral part of the Dynasty Celtics who many times was there leading scorer and led in a Win Shares a few times.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 05:49 PM
Dave Cowens for reasons I've already mentioned several times.

Knick Killer
10-10-2011, 05:51 PM
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS

Total Minutes:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 57,446 (2nd in our list)
2. Karl Malone - 54,852 (14th in our list)
3. Elvin Hayes - 50,000 (??)

Total Points:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387 (2nd in our list)
2. Karl Malone - 36,928 (14th in our list)
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292 (1st in our list)
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419 (3rd in our list)
5. Shaquille O'Neal - 28,596 (7th in our list)
6. Kobe Bryant - 27,868 (8th in our list)
7. Moses Malone - 27,409 (12th in our list)
8. Elvin Hayes - 27,313 (??)

Total Rebounds:
1. Wilt Chamberlain - 23,924 (3rd in our list)
2. Bill Russell - 21,620 (5th in our list)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 17,440 (2nd in our list)
4. Elvin Hayes - 16,279 (??)

All Star Games: 12 (more than the other 19 players in the poll, equal with one)
Championships: 1 (1978-Washington Bullets)
1978 Playoff Stats PG: 21.8 points, 13.3 rebaunds, 2.0 assists, 2.5 blocks, 1.5 steals.
Career Stats Per Game: 21.0 points, 12.5 rebaunds, 1.8 assists, 2.0 blocks, 1.0 steals.
All-NBA 1st Team: 3 (1975, 1977, 1979)
All-NBA 2nd Team: 3 (1973, 1974, 1976)

Vote: Elvin Hayes

KnicksorBust
10-10-2011, 05:58 PM
Dave Cowens. MVP, Top 2 player on 2 Championship Teams. Great 2 way player and one of the greatest hustle players of all-time along with Rodman, and Havlicek.

Hustlenomics
10-10-2011, 06:47 PM
NBA Champion: 2008
NBA Finals MVP: 2008
All-NBA Second Team: 2009
3-time All-NBA Third Team: 2002, 2003, 2008
9-time NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1999
NBA regular-season leader, total points: 2002 (2144)
NBA regular-season leader, free throws made: 2003 (604)

Celtic Franchise records
-Scored 30 or more points in a franchise record 12 consecutive games
Most points scored in a game at TD Banknorth Garden: 50 (February 15, 2006 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers).
-Most points scored in a half (including Overtime): 46 (December 1, 2001 2nd Half vs. New Jersey Nets).
-Most points scored in an overtime period: 13 (December 1, 2001 vs. New Jersey Nets)
-Most three-point field goals made, career: 1578
-Most free throws made, career: 5808
-Most free throws made in one game: 20 (November 2, 2002 vs. New York Knicks)
-Most free throws made in one half: 14 (March 2, 2001 vs. Utah Jazz).
-Most free throws made in one season: 627 (2005–2006, breaking his own record of 604 set in 2002–2003)
-Most steals in one game: 9 (tied with Larry Bird; December 3, 1999 vs. Miami Heat).
-Most free throws made without a miss, playoffs: 21 (Game 1, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round).
-Most points scored in one half, playoffs: 32 (Game 4, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round vs. Indiana Pacers).
-Highest scoring average through one month: 33.5 PPG (February 2006).
-Only Celtics player in franchise history to lead the NBA in total points scored in a season, scoring 2,144 points in 2001–2002.
-Currently is the Celtics 3rd all time leading scorer, behind only John Havlicek and Larry Bird

Vote: PAUL PIERCE

Hangtime
10-10-2011, 07:05 PM
I am going with Sam Jones yet again and will do so until he gets the nod.

Lakersfan2483
10-10-2011, 09:25 PM
Elvin Hayes. Career avg. of 21ppg and 12 rpg a night. Scored over 27,000 pts for his career and grabbed over 16,000 rebs. I am surprised he's still around considering how much success he had individually. He's one of the most underrated players in league history.



All Star Games: 12
Championships: 1 (1978-Washington Bullets)
Career Stats Per Game: 21.0 points, 12.5 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 2.0 blocks, 1.0 steals.
All-NBA 1st Team: 3 (1975, 1977, 1979)
All-NBA 2nd Team: 3 (1973, 1974, 1976)

bagwell368
10-10-2011, 10:13 PM
Elvin Hayes.

On paper maybe. He had longevity, but was soft. In all his big moments, he had BIG TIME shrinkage factor. He even blew chunks in game 7 of the title he did get. Nobody I knew back then thought he was great, just a stat collector that couldn't do it.

Only people looking at this stat line could conclude he was great. Joke.

bagwell368
10-10-2011, 10:18 PM
Vote: PAUL PIERCE

What's that story "the emperor has no clothes" - well Pierce was a volume scoring, meh defense punk, until:

KG
Coach T
Ray Allen
Powe
Posey
Brown

joined the Celts, he never led the earlier teams anyplace, and some of them had some good talent. He sucked eggs in the ECF vs the Nets. He stunk in games 5 and 6 when the money was on the line against the Heat last year.

He is the worst supposed "big time player" I ever saw with the ball in his hands with 8-9 seconds left in the half/game. 70% of the time end up with a 23' fallaway under heavy pressure.

I'm a Celt fan that goes back to 1966, and Pierce doesn't belong here.

Hustlenomics
10-11-2011, 12:26 AM
^ Pierce sucked when he scored 19 in the fourth in that comeback against the nets? make your vote and keep it moving, we all know Pierce is not a bad player so stop discrediting him

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 06:58 AM
^ Pierce sucked when he scored 19 in the fourth in that comeback against the nets? make your vote and keep it moving, we all know Pierce is not a bad player so stop discrediting him

Paul Pierce is not a "bad" player. He was a steal at his draft position, and he's going to be a HOF. But IMO he's not #45 all time. And I'll opine on Pierce or anyone else whenever I see fit. BTW that's pretty interesting that you get to post all these stats and glowing single game highlights about PP, but it irritates you when someone counters that?

BTW ECF vs Nets:

game 1: 27/04/2 MP: 38 2: 2 for 11 3: 2 for 8 and FT: 7 for 13
game 2: 18/14/2 MP: 46 2: 2 for 15 3: 1 for 5 FT:11 for 20
game 3: 28/05/4 MP: 45 2: 8 for 16 3: 0 for 5 FT: 12 for 15
game 4: 31/09/4 MP: 48 2: 9 for 17 3: 1 for 4 FT: 10 for 15 TOV: 6
game 5: 24/12/5 MP: 43 2: 3 for 4 3: 2 for 9 FG: 12 for 12
game 6: 14/07/4 MP: 43 2: 3 for 6 3: 2 for 7 FTA: 2 for 4

4th year in the league, so no excuses there.

game 1 lost to Nets 104 to 97, think maybe PP's miserable 2 for 11 from 2 had anything to do with that? How about 7 for 13 from the stripe? foul trouble kept him sitting 5-7 more minutes then Coach wanted. A win here, and who knows? Well, PP wasn't ready for it.

PP shot 3's in the Series: 8 for 38 (.211 clip). That year league shot at .354, not so good.

Also notice in game 6 while he shot well, he didn't shoot much? Did the coach muzzle him for his prior crappy shoot fests? Or did the D shut mighty PP down? Whatever it was he didn't do enough to win.

People say it was a two man team, well Rodney Rogers, Eric Williams, Battie, and Kenny Anderson were not too shabby either. Not as good as the Nets, PP wasn't able to do anything about it.

ShakeN'Bake
10-11-2011, 08:37 AM
Paul Pierce is not a "bad" player. He was a steal at his draft position, and he's going to be a HOF. But IMO he's not #45 all time. And I'll opine on Pierce or anyone else whenever I see fit. BTW that's pretty interesting that you get to post all these stats and glowing single game highlights about PP, but it irritates you when someone counters that?

BTW ECF vs Nets:

game 1: 27/04/2 MP: 38 2: 2 for 11 3: 2 for 8 and FT: 7 for 13
game 2: 18/14/2 MP: 46 2: 2 for 15 3: 1 for 5 FT:11 for 20
game 3: 28/05/4 MP: 45 2: 8 for 16 3: 0 for 5 FT: 12 for 15
game 4: 31/09/4 MP: 48 2: 9 for 17 3: 1 for 4 FT: 10 for 15 TOV: 6
game 5: 24/12/5 MP: 43 2: 3 for 4 3: 2 for 9 FG: 12 for 12
game 6: 14/07/4 MP: 43 2: 3 for 6 3: 2 for 7 FTA: 2 for 4

4th year in the league, so no excuses there.

game 1 lost to Nets 104 to 97, think maybe PP's miserable 2 for 11 from 2 had anything to do with that? How about 7 for 13 from the stripe? foul trouble kept him sitting 5-7 more minutes then Coach wanted. A win here, and who knows? Well, PP wasn't ready for it.

PP shot 3's in the Series: 8 for 38 (.211 clip). That year league shot at .354, not so good.

Also notice in game 6 while he shot well, he didn't shoot much? Did the coach muzzle him for his prior crappy shoot fests? Or did the D shut mighty PP down? Whatever it was he didn't do enough to win.

People say it was a two man team, well Rodney Rogers, Eric Williams, Battie, and Kenny Anderson were not too shabby either. Not as good as the Nets, PP wasn't able to do anything about it.

Ok I will start to take this thing seriously again.

Let me just add that the thing that always bothered me about Pierce was that when he was the man he turned over the ball a ton. It was always so frustrating for me to see him wasting plays by taking bad shots or turning the ball over.

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 09:12 AM
For Parish:

Parish is widely seen as the 3rd guy of the greatest front line in BB history. He was better then that:

1978-1979 - #1 tie on GSW w/ John Lucas, I think it's a tie, or slight for Parish.
1980-1981 - #2 on that ring team, Maxwell close at #3.
1981-1982 - #2 with Maxwell a near #3
1982-1983 - #2 after Bird, McHale well back in #3
1983-1984 - #2 tie w/ McHale in regular season - another ring
1988-1989 - #1 tied w/ McHale
1990-1991 - #1 on the team

Outside of these years, Parish had 7 other years when he was the 3rd-5th guy;
AND three other years when he was a useful player, and three years to forget.

Nobody else that hasn't been voted in yet has this sort of longevity combined with such a long peak (1978-1991). His peak wasn't that of a Jabbar or Wilt, but was still quite good.

Win Shares - 23rd (PP 37th)
DWS - 14th (PP 43rd)
OWS - 45th
23, 334 points - 24th
DReb - 4th
OReb - 3rd
Blocks - 11th
FG % - 26th
9 ASG, 4 rings (PP 9 and 1)

If he didn't play on a team with 3 other star bigs, he would have had greater offensive numbers.

His flaws: Hardly ever got the better of Kareem (except beating him down floor for an easy two), turned the ball over a lot (that little shuffle step - but then again so does PP), was very quiet, didn't put himself out there (hence "the Chief" nickname).

vs. Pierce? 7 years Parish had 20.0 PER or above, PP 6
Parish did better in MVP voting
even with his long decline, Parish has a slightly better ORtg and DRtg then PP.
Obviously Parish crushes him in rebounds and blocks, steals are closer then one might think, and of course PP has the Assists, dribbles, flopping well above Parish.

Also Parish smacked Laimbeer, and the coward didn't even retaliate, there is no stat for that, but in terms of classic, delicious retaliations against a known dirty players? Top 5 ever.

Cowens was my favorite player probably longer then anyone else, he was a major guy for a team that won a Championship that wasn't very talented, and then a couple of years later with some help from the #4 (Silas) did it again. He was as hard nosed as they come. When he was healthy he handled Jabbar, and paved the way for other tough Centers to do the same. Better passer/dribbler then Parish, but outside of that Parish was a better offensive player. Cowens was a great one on one defender, Parish one 1/2 step back.

BUT:

Cowens had 7 very good/great years, and Parish had 14.
Cowens had 3 good more good years, and Parish had 4.
Cowens had one scrub year, Parish 3.

Parish played in 1795 games (reg + playoff) more then double of Cowens.
Cowens played in 0850 games

Cowens did real well in MVP voting during a very weak era for the NBA, Parish played in one of the best era's for teams, players, and Centers.

Also, little known is this:

Cowens was a distraction and his image of ultra tough guy never say die doesn't cover the last 40% of his career (minus one year). He walked off the team in early 1976-77 to clear his head, while he was on leave he drove a cab one night to check it out (and had the papers following him all over the place). Meanwhile, because he couldn't "get into" it - the Celts who had won the title the year before, finished 44-38 (and got rubbed out in the ECS). The next year the Celts started the season 11-23, and Heinsohn got fired. Cowens was the leader and best player on those two teams (Havlicek was in decline by then). Believe me, a Cowens playing w/o a fire in his belly wasn't that special. After that 2nd title he was off well more often then he was on. Also including that year he took a vacation his games played per season and WS:

50 - 4.4
77 - 10.8
68 - 4.8
66 - 5.4
40 - 4.9 (2 year gap)

So, he had a 5 year peak, with outlier peak year two years later, and this guy, after you strip off the patina of never say die image, basically he let the last 40% of his career do just that (minus 77-78). He rolled over from ennui and injury both. He's an all time great Celt, but he's well behind Parish and Sam Jones, and assuming Pierce has two decent years left in him, I have to put PP over him as well, and nobody can accuse me of being a PP suck up.

Hustlenomics
10-11-2011, 10:35 AM
Paul Pierce is not a "bad" player. He was a steal at his draft position, and he's going to be a HOF. But IMO he's not #45 all time. And I'll opine on Pierce or anyone else whenever I see fit. BTW that's pretty interesting that you get to post all these stats and glowing single game highlights about PP, but it irritates you when someone counters that?

BTW ECF vs Nets:

game 1: 27/04/2 MP: 38 2: 2 for 11 3: 2 for 8 and FT: 7 for 13
game 2: 18/14/2 MP: 46 2: 2 for 15 3: 1 for 5 FT:11 for 20
game 3: 28/05/4 MP: 45 2: 8 for 16 3: 0 for 5 FT: 12 for 15
game 4: 31/09/4 MP: 48 2: 9 for 17 3: 1 for 4 FT: 10 for 15 TOV: 6
game 5: 24/12/5 MP: 43 2: 3 for 4 3: 2 for 9 FG: 12 for 12
game 6: 14/07/4 MP: 43 2: 3 for 6 3: 2 for 7 FTA: 2 for 4

4th year in the league, so no excuses there.

game 1 lost to Nets 104 to 97, think maybe PP's miserable 2 for 11 from 2 had anything to do with that? How about 7 for 13 from the stripe? foul trouble kept him sitting 5-7 more minutes then Coach wanted. A win here, and who knows? Well, PP wasn't ready for it.

PP shot 3's in the Series: 8 for 38 (.211 clip). That year league shot at .354, not so good.

Also notice in game 6 while he shot well, he didn't shoot much? Did the coach muzzle him for his prior crappy shoot fests? Or did the D shut mighty PP down? Whatever it was he didn't do enough to win.

People say it was a two man team, well Rodney Rogers, Eric Williams, Battie, and Kenny Anderson were not too shabby either. Not as good as the Nets, PP wasn't able to do anything about it.

he was getting points on bad percentages, so that series defines his career? and all those role players you named were BAD, it's laughable how they made the conference finals with Antoine as the second best player

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 11:10 AM
he was getting points on bad percentages, so that series defines his career?

You keep throwing 2007-2008 Finals MVP (not playoff however) out there, so before he got all the help, his big moment was in that ECF, and he pulled out his volume shooting routine. If you get to give him a laurel wreath (for 4 games) in 2007-2008, I get to show some of his other performances.

Playoff WS/48 by year:

.161 (16 games)
.179 (10 games)
-0.116 (4 games) - 11.7 PER, 21.8 TOV %
.301 (7 games) - '04-'05 still lost series

.145 (26 games) - ring (led NBA w/ 82 TOV - 15.5%); his TRB% has gone down a lot from the first 4 playoff years since '04-'05 and before
.112 (14 games) 16.1 PER, AST's started shrinking from this year forward.
.131 (24 games) 15.8 PER (18.8/6/3.4)
.128 (9 games) 17.6 PER (20.8/5.0/2.8)

Hmmmm, one great (lost 1st series in 7), two very good, 1 quite good, 2 average, 1 meh, 1 brutal



and all those role players you named were BAD, it's laughable how they made the conference finals with Antoine as the second best player

Trap. His cast wasn't good, but he couldn't elevate his game or the team, is that the mark of a great player?

He needed an infusion of players (two stars, 4 key role guys) probably never seen before in the annals of NBA history to win one ring - which as we both know is due more to KG then PP.

What else do you have? Longish career, healthy, volume scorer. Crap MVP support, 1 title, not much D (except rebounds and steals) until KG showed up. He's clearly a top 60 NBA player. He's liable to win this round, which I'm thinking is good, because the people that really care about careful placement will start to outnumber the "my guy" crew.

Hustlenomics
10-11-2011, 11:41 AM
^ yep and once he got a good team he won instantly and got the finals mvp as the best player on the team

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
^ yep and once he got a good team he won instantly and got the finals mvp as the best player on the team

one year, with the biggest influx of talent to a team in NBA history... wow.... lay that on DA, Doc, Coach T, RA, House, David, Posey, Powe, Brown, KG and PP.

PP was better then KG in 2007-2008? BWHGAGAGAGGAGAGAAAAHHH, why because PP is your guy, how about some analysis?

WS/48 reg season: KG .265 >> .207; playoffs KG .199 >> .145 - not even close either way.

KG also had:

higher STL% (well over) PP in reg season and playoffs;
double the Reb%
triple the Blk %
almost as good on AST%
less TOV%
much better DRtg (D player of the year which was true and also everyone knew a band-aid for not winning the MVP of the season, and ORtg - PP's game - favors KG by a good amount.

So, what do you have? How does anyone that watched that season think PP > KG? Go ahead, explain it, seriously...

Hustlenomics
10-11-2011, 12:28 PM
^ I'm actually interested in seeing you criticize how he's played during seasons and how it's a fluke that he's breaking Celtic records

Hellcrooner
10-11-2011, 12:29 PM
^ yep and once he got a good team he won instantly and got the finals mvp as the best player on the team

thats is directly an insult to KG .

Chronz
10-11-2011, 02:03 PM
he was getting points on bad percentages, so that series defines his career?
You focused on 1 game, he focused on the series. Nobody is defining an entire career by 1 anything, hes simply countering your logic with enhanced logic.


and all those role players you named were BAD, it's laughable how they made the conference finals with Antoine as the second best player

Opinion with no analysis, what else is new.

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 02:34 PM
^ I'm actually interested in seeing you criticize how he's played during seasons and how it's a fluke that he's breaking Celtic records

The first 3 Celtic dynasties were about winning, defense, and scoring balance. Setting scoring records when you shoot a lot and play a long time doesn't mean that much. McHale and Bird were both far better offensive players in their time despite what counting numbers might say.

PP shoots too much, doesn't have great rate numbers, hasn't been great in the playoffs (except a few games). He never led the Celts anyplace until the gifts from the sky fell on him, and then yes he managed to be a big part of 1 ring team.

If he manages to play 4 more full years, he'll probably own the all time Celt scoring record, but his rate stats will be a long way under many other Celtic great. His ring count pathetic next to theirs.

He's not even the best #3 in Celt history (Bird), or the second #3 in Celt history (Havlicek), but the 3rd best. If he fits on the All time Celtic 12 man team, it's as a bench guy, a back of the bench bench guy. Argue that.

mightybosstone
10-11-2011, 04:55 PM
PP shoots too much, doesn't have great rate numbers, hasn't been great in the playoffs (except a few games). He never led the Celts anyplace until the gifts from the sky fell on him, and then yes he managed to be a big part of 1 ring team. If he manages to play 4 more full years, he'll probably own the all time Celt scoring record, but his rate stats will be a long way under many other Celtic great. His ring count pathetic next to theirs.
Couldn't you argue that he shot so much because he lacked talent? And, yeah, Pierce shot a lot, but Bird shot more in his career and Pierce actually has a higher career TS%. I'm not saying Pierce is a better player than Bird (not AT ALL), but I think it provides some perspective.


He's not even the best #3 in Celt history (Bird), or the second #3 in Celt history (Havlicek), but the 3rd best. If he fits on the All time Celtic 12 man team, it's as a bench guy, a back of the bench bench guy. Argue that.

Assuming that we're going on a 12-man roster, my depth chart would look like this...

PG: Bob Cousy / Nate Archibald
SG: John Havlicek / Sam Jones / Ray Allen
SF: Larry Bird / Paul Pierce
PF: Kevin Garnett / Kevin McHale
C: Bill Russell / Dave Cowens / Robert Parish

The toughest calls were at backup PG and Garnett over McHale at starting PF. A defensive frontcourt of Bird, Garnett and Russell was too good to pass up...

Hustlenomics
10-11-2011, 09:36 PM
You focused on 1 game, he focused on the series. Nobody is defining an entire career by 1 anything, hes simply countering your logic with enhanced logic.


Opinion with no analysis, what else is new.

I've watched those teams more than you get the hell outta here don't even try and say those were good or great role players, they were average at best


The first 3 Celtic dynasties were about winning, defense, and scoring balance. Setting scoring records when you shoot a lot and play a long time doesn't mean that much. McHale and Bird were both far better offensive players in their time despite what counting numbers might say.

PP shoots too much, doesn't have great rate numbers, hasn't been great in the playoffs (except a few games). He never led the Celts anyplace until the gifts from the sky fell on him, and then yes he managed to be a big part of 1 ring team.

If he manages to play 4 more full years, he'll probably own the all time Celt scoring record, but his rate stats will be a long way under many other Celtic great. His ring count pathetic next to theirs.

He's not even the best #3 in Celt history (Bird), or the second #3 in Celt history (Havlicek), but the 3rd best. If he fits on the All time Celtic 12 man team, it's as a bench guy, a back of the bench bench guy. Argue that.
I don't think you like any player

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Couldn't you argue that he shot so much because he lacked talent?

Wait, you mean the team lacked talent? OK, some of PP's extended crummy shooting skeins are due to that, but he shot crummy not them, not someone else. He's as I said clearly a top 60 all time NBA player, maybe even #53 or so, that's pretty great, but it's not #45 great.


And, yeah, Pierce shot a lot, but Bird shot more in his career and Pierce actually has a higher career TS%. I'm not saying Pierce is a better player than Bird (not AT ALL), but I think it provides some perspective.

Yeah, some of the pro PP folks in the Celt board over the past year have tossed that one out. It's hard to be head and shoulder above a HOF unless you are about 3 levels up the HOF list, which is why Bird is basically head and shoulders above PP, even if PP gets him in a few counting stats or an odd rate stat. But I'll fire fully in a moment.

By the way shooting percentages are a funny stat to pick PP > Bird:

3 pt shooting %, top 10 finishes per season:


Bird 7 total (3, 2, 4, 7, 7, 8, 8);
Pierce 0 total (N/A)


FT %, top 10 finishes per season:


Bird 11 total (8, 5, 9, 1, 6, 1, 1, 2, 1, 10, 2)
Pierce 0 total (N/A)

PP TS% .569 eFG% .499
LB TS% .564 eFG% .514

So, did you consider that Bird's painful decline hurt his TS%? What will PP be when he is done, wanna bet that its less then Bird's? eFG% will also go deeper into Bird's win column.

While we are it MVP finishes:

Bird: 4, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 2, 10, 9, 14 (3rd all time MVP Award Shares)
Pierce: 13, 11, 11, 14, 7 (106th all time)


Assuming that we're going on a 12-man roster, my depth chart would look like this...

PG: Bob Cousy / Nate Archibald
SG: John Havlicek / Sam Jones / Ray Allen
SF: Larry Bird / Paul Pierce
PF: Kevin Garnett / Kevin McHale
C: Bill Russell / Dave Cowens / Robert Parish

The toughest calls were at backup PG and Garnett over McHale at starting PF. A defensive frontcourt of Bird, Garnett and Russell was too good to pass up...

Not bad, but not my list:

Tiny wasn't good enough long enough for the Celts and he was a defensive liability. Speaking of defense, every guy I have has to be an excellent defender (Jones and Cousy worry me which is why they are subs).

I have no idea why JH is listed as a SG for so many fans, while he could play O at the #2, his d wasn't convincing, swing 3/2 OK. BTW he played 3 about 84% of his career (by my memory).

5: Russell, Parish
4/5: Garnett, McHale, Cowens
3: Bird
3/2: Havlicek, Pierce
2: Allen, Jones
1: DJ, Cousy

Toughest omissions: Silas, Max, Howell, Rondo, Chaney. I think taking out Jones, Cousy for Chaney and Rondo) will result in howls, but also likely a stronger on the court team.

bagwell368
10-11-2011, 10:17 PM
I don't think you like any player

I like lots of players: KG, McHale, Bird, DJ, Havlicek, Cowens, Hakeem, Chekks, Bobby Jones, Silas, Dumars, Moses, Bing, Camby, Parker, Duncan, Magic, Payton, Max, etc.

But I don't like inflation of modern players such as PP because few Celt fans on this board know the earlier guys or have taken the time to learn, so they like the guys they know - because. Some reason. I can accept a lot, but having opinions not based on knowledge? Not a favorite.

JNA17
10-12-2011, 03:09 AM
^ yep and once he got a good team he won instantly and got the finals mvp as the best player on the team

KG says hi.

mightybosstone
10-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Wait, you mean the team lacked talent? OK, some of PP's extended crummy shooting skeins are due to that, but he shot crummy not them, not someone else. He's as I said clearly a top 60 all time NBA player, maybe even #53 or so, that's pretty great, but it's not #45 great.
I agree with you that 45 is too high for Pierce, but at the same time, if someone like Reggie Miller deserves to go as high as he did, then I think Pierce going here isn't that far fetched.


So, did you consider that Bird's painful decline hurt his TS%? What will PP be when he is done, wanna bet that its less then Bird's? eFG% will also go deeper into Bird's win column.
Actually, I think Pierce's will only to continue to improve unless he has a significant dropoff and plays past his usefulness. Look at his numbers the last few seasons since KG and Allen arrived and his percentages are increasing, not decreasing. In fact, he shot career highs in FG%, FT%, eFG% and TS% last season.

I think he's going to be one of those players (like Kobe, for example), that as his athleticism goes, relies more on his shooting so he tries to master that skill.


While we are it MVP finishes:

Bird: 4, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 2, 10, 9, 14 (3rd all time MVP Award Shares)
Pierce: 13, 11, 11, 14, 7 (106th all time)
I'm not even trying to compare the two as overall players, but I just think knocking Pierce's shooting is unfair when his numbers are at least comparable to one of the all-time great Celtics and someone who is considered one of the best shooters in NBA history. When Pierce has had the talent around him, he has proven to be one of the most efficient scorers in the league.


Tiny wasn't good enough long enough for the Celts and he was a defensive liability. Speaking of defense, every guy I have has to be an excellent defender (Jones and Cousy worry me which is why they are subs).
Fair enough. In hindsight, I probably would have started Cousy with DJ backing him up for defensive purposes. As point distributors and scorers, though, Cousy and Archilbald were surperior. The problem with Nate is that his best seasons were not in a Celtic uniform.


I have no idea why JH is listed as a SG for so many fans, while he could play O at the #2, his d wasn't convincing, swing 3/2 OK. BTW he played 3 about 84% of his career (by my memory).
How many 6'5" SF do you know in the NBA today? The difference between the 2 and 3 isn't that significant, but (as good of a defender as he was) I have a hard time believing that he would be able to check the average NBA SF today.

So your starting five would be Russell, Garnett, Bird, Allen and DJ? Or would you start Havlicek at the 2 even though you think he's playing out of position?

bagwell368
10-12-2011, 01:58 PM
Actually, I think Pierce's will only to continue to improve unless he has a significant dropoff and plays past his usefulness. Look at his numbers the last few seasons since KG and Allen arrived and his percentages are increasing, not decreasing. In fact, he shot career highs in FG%, FT%, eFG% and TS% last season.

Even as the team slides down the drain? Nobody can beat physical decline, in particular #3's that never had that much lift in the first place.

No comment on 3's and FT's?


I think he's going to be one of those players (like Kobe, for example), that as his athleticism goes, relies more on his shooting so he tries to master that skill.

Or his driving to that basket (high %) will dry up, and he'll eat a lot more leather putting up shots.


I'm not even trying to compare the two as overall players, but I just think knocking Pierce's shooting is unfair when his numbers are at least comparable to one of the all-time great Celtics and someone who is considered one of the best shooters in NBA history. When Pierce has had the talent around him, he has proven to be one of the most efficient scorers in the league.

I don't see how PP is any match for Bird offensively. PP is a scrub passer compared to Bird, a lesser offensive rebounder, a lesser FT% shooter, a lesser 3PT% shooter. What is left? Not shooting, not other elements of playing offense - NOTHING.

And as I pointed out Bird in his time slaughters PP in his time, and PP hasn't hit his decline, which he will.


Fair enough. In hindsight, I probably would have started Cousy with DJ backing him up for defensive purposes. As point distributors and scorers, though, Cousy and Archilbald were surperior. The problem with Nate is that his best seasons were not in a Celtic uniform.

Right Tiny wasn't here when he was great, if it's all the career, then Walton is a #5 if this is a peak or one year team.

I don't worry about DJ not being a pure point, I have Bird, Walton (now, see below), and KG on the floor too. The ball will move. DJ is a way better defender then Cousy or Tiny.


How many 6'5" SF do you know in the NBA today? The difference between the 2 and 3 isn't that significant, but (as good of a defender as he was) I have a hard time believing that he would be able to check the average NBA SF today.

If this team is made to be used against today's teams only, nobody but Russell and Cowens before Bird get considered. Havlicek simply isn't big, fast, or quick enough to be #2 in this league. If this is a guy in his own time, then Havlicek is in.


So your starting five would be Russell, Garnett, Bird, Allen and DJ? Or would you start Havlicek at the 2 even though you think he's playing out of position?

Allen is a more pure shooting 2 then JH, and when dedicated to it, a very good defender against today's #2's which would give JH a very hard time.

Russell's offense is so elemental that I probably wouldn't start him, and i might not even carry him against todays NBA.

My team (one year peak) vs this years league (if there are games):

5: Parish, Walton
5/4: Cowens
4: McHale/KG - both play a lot
3: Bird, PP
3/2: Posey
2: Allen
2/1: Chaney (D)
1. DJ, Rondo

Don't laugh, having guys like Walton, McHale, Posey, Chaney that played well in roles and off the bench helps a team play, a team full of All Stars can run into ego problems right away w/ only one ball. This is a real team, not a trophy case sort of team.

Hustlenomics
10-12-2011, 06:41 PM
KG says hi.

nothing wrong with thinking that. KG was very important for the Celtics Defensively and motivated them in ways that don't show up on the scoreboard. Pierce was the go to guy

Chronz
10-12-2011, 07:42 PM
I've watched those teams more than you get the hell outta here don't even try and say those were good or great role players, they were average at best

Thats nice, but you were speaking on how amazing it was. I didnt see anything amazing from that performance. I saw par for the course

Hellcrooner
10-12-2011, 09:13 PM
nothing wrong with thinking that. KG was very important for the Celtics Defensively and motivated them in ways that don't show up on the scoreboard. Pierce was the go to guy

being the "scoring option" does not make you the most important piece.
Check Worhty in 87 and 88, he was NOT the leader of the team, just the scorer.

bagwell368
10-12-2011, 10:51 PM
nothing wrong with thinking that. KG was very important for the Celtics Defensively and motivated them in ways that don't show up on the scoreboard. Pierce was the go to guy

Go to guy?

Per 36 minutes: Name and FGA per game

Cassell - 15.7
Garnett - 15.3
Pruitt - 14.8
Pierce - 13.8
Allen - 13.5
House - 12.9
Powe - 12.0
Rondo 11.1
T. Allen - 10.2

Per 36 min - Name and 3Pt per game

House - 7.2
Allen - 6.2
Posey 5.5
Pierce 4.6
Pruitt 4.5

Pierce in other areas (averages):

TS% - 3rd
eFG% - 6th
ORB% - 11th
DRB% - 7th
AST% - 3rd
STL%- 7th
BLK% - 9th
TOV% - 7th
USG% - 3rd
ORtg - 5th
DRtg - 10th
WS/48 - 3rd
WS - 2nd


Ray was a better sharp shooter then Pierce

Rondo a better passer

Go to guy? I do not think that term means what you think it means.

From the season before to this year, collectively as a team and for each player year over year, the defense jumped a greater amount than any team I can think of - look at the DRtg's, Allen and Pierce not known for D got much better. Posey also took a big leap as did Perkins and others. All on the back of KG and Coach T - and little to do w/ Pierce.

It's not an opinion - it's a fact, KG was more valuable to that team - easily.

Hustlenomics
10-12-2011, 11:41 PM
Go to guy?

Per 36 minutes: Name and FGA per game

Cassell - 15.7
Garnett - 15.3
Pruitt - 14.8
Pierce - 13.8
Allen - 13.5
House - 12.9
Powe - 12.0
Rondo 11.1
T. Allen - 10.2

Per 36 min - Name and 3Pt per game

House - 7.2
Allen - 6.2
Posey 5.5
Pierce 4.6
Pruitt 4.5

Pierce in other areas (averages):

TS% - 3rd
eFG% - 6th
ORB% - 11th
DRB% - 7th
AST% - 3rd
STL%- 7th
BLK% - 9th
TOV% - 7th
USG% - 3rd
ORtg - 5th
DRtg - 10th
WS/48 - 3rd
WS - 2nd


Ray was a better sharp shooter then Pierce

Rondo a better passer

Go to guy? I do not think that term means what you think it means.

From the season before to this year, collectively as a team and for each player year over year, the defense jumped a greater amount than any team I can think of - look at the DRtg's, Allen and Pierce not known for D got much better. Posey also took a big leap as did Perkins and others. All on the back of KG and Coach T - and little to do w/ Pierce.

It's not an opinion - it's a fact, KG was more valuable to that team - easily.
Game 1 KG shot 40% while Pierce shot 70% from the field and the game would have been lost if Pierce didn't come back and hit those back to back threes
Game 2 Pierce had 28 points on 56% shooting from the field while KG shot 36%
Game 3 Pierce had foul trouble and KG stepped up and shot 28% from the field
Game 4 Pierce is the scoring leader again
Game 5 we lost but Pierce had 38 points and was the only one who came up to play
Game 6 the whole team killed the Lakers and KG had a great game all around

Pierce had the better series but they're both valuable and the Celtics wouldn't win with either of them so I don't see the problem with saying either was the "leader"

bagwell368
10-12-2011, 11:55 PM
Updated:


nothing wrong with thinking that. KG was very important for the Celtics Defensively and motivated them in ways that don't show up on the scoreboard. Pierce was the go to guy

Go to guy?

Per 36 minutes: Name and FGA per game

Cassell - 15.7
Garnett - 15.3
Pruitt - 14.8
Pierce - 13.8
Allen - 13.5
House - 12.9
Powe - 12.0
Rondo 11.1
T. Allen - 10.2

Per 36 min - Name and 3Pt per game

House - 7.2
Allen - 6.2
Posey 5.5
Pierce 4.6
Pruitt 4.5

Pierce in other areas (averages) KG in parens:

TS% - 3rd (5th)
eFG% - 6th (4th)
TRB% - 11th (6th)
DRB% - 9th (2nd)
AST% - 3rd (5th)
STL%- 7th (4th hmmmm)
BLK% - 9th (3rd)
TOV% - 7th (2nd)
USG% - 3rd (1st - notable)
ORtg - 5th (3rd - likewise)
DRtg - 10th (1st - w/ ease)
WS/48 - 3rd (1st)
WS - 2nd (1st)


Ray was a better sharp shooter then Pierce

Rondo a better passer

Go to guy? I do not think that term means what you think it means.

From the season before to this year, collectively as a team and for each player year over year, the defense jumped a greater amount than any team I can think of - look at the DRtg's, Allen and Pierce not known for D got much better. Posey also took a big leap as did Perkins and others. All on the back of KG and Coach T - and little to do w/ Pierce.

It's not an opinion - it's a fact, KG was more valuable to that team - easily.

bagwell368
10-13-2011, 12:20 AM
Game 1 KG shot 40% while Pierce shot 70% from the field and the game would have been lost if Pierce didn't come back and hit those back to back threes
Game 2 Pierce had 28 points on 56% shooting from the field while KG shot 36%
Game 3 Pierce had foul trouble and KG stepped up and shot 28% from the field
Game 4 Pierce is the scoring leader again
Game 5 we lost but Pierce had 38 points and was the only one who came up to play
Game 6 the whole team killed the Lakers and KG had a great game all around

Pierce had the better series but they're both valuable and the Celtics wouldn't win with either of them so I don't see the problem with saying either was the "leader"

KG had the better playoffs as well as regular season - he was the more crucial player - period - as I proved above, and will address again.

Leader? KG easily. Catalyst? KG easily? Superior regular season and playoffs? KG easily - all you need to do is look at the pre LAL Series too see that KG > PP.

Why is it you talk only in points BTW? Is that all you think matters?

LAL Finals game 1:

KG: MIN: 40:39 PTS: 24 REB: 13 AST: 3 TOV: 1
PP: MIN: 31:04 PTS: 22 REB: 04 AST: 2 TOV: 3

KG was perfect from the line (6 for 6); P was 5 for 7. Hmmm, 9 1/2 minutes more for KG. I think KG's big lead in rebounds, slight in assists, and less TOV's more then make up for FG%. KG slightly over PP or a tie

LAL Finals game 2:

KG shooting off, but 14 > 4 rebounds...; edge PP

LAL Finals game 3:

KG shooting off again, but 12 > 6 Reb, KG 5 AST > PP 3; AND KG played 10 1/2 more minutes then PP; KG wins by attrition.

LAL Finals game 4:

Similar FG% shooting, PP has good day at the line, KG wins the Reb 11 > 4; PP plays 5 minutes more; Draw

LAL Finals game 5:

KG's usual lead in Reb's not a match for PP's big day at the line. PP wins

Lal Finals game 6:

PP has big assist day, but KG carries the day. KG has solid edge.

So I have it: 2-2-2 tie or 3-2-1 in favor of KG; Remember box scores suck for defensive details.

Playoff stats say KG led ALL NBA in defense and in total value that year, and had a 23.0 PER

PP had a very pedestrian 17.4 PER, no match in WS/48 either, and despite playing a whole 3 minutes more then KG in the playoffs his WS total was a whopping 32% below KG's.

Is there anyone here other then huge PP fans that disagree?