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View Full Version : Straight up.....who's at fault now?



mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 12:05 PM
As most of you, I have gone back and forth as to which side is holding up the deal. After yesteday's hope that we had a breakthrough, only to wake up and hear more of the same.......
which side do you blame? No gray zone here.

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 12:16 PM
I blame both...

mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 12:19 PM
Missed the point; if you had to choose one side, which would it be.......TODAY.
I'll go first. I blame the owners today.

mttwlsn16
10-10-2011, 12:21 PM
pwners

llemon
10-10-2011, 12:25 PM
No blame, just negotiations

dunedinjays
10-10-2011, 12:26 PM
players

NJ Raven
10-10-2011, 12:30 PM
I'd say players if I had to decisively chose one side. But really both are not acting properly and really could have this done.

king4day
10-10-2011, 12:37 PM
Since the option for both still isn't there I'll put owners but it's not like the Players are making this easy for the owners. It's a mess. I don't think anyone really believed a deal would get done. It's going to flow into the season. There's no way around it.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 12:41 PM
honestly both...

in the begining i was with the players....it was and still is the owners fault why there is a lockout

but the blame for the players has to start because of the idea of a 50-50 split and the players wouldnt negotiate

both

llemon
10-10-2011, 12:48 PM
I'd say players if I had to decisively chose one side. But really both are not acting properly and really could have this done.

Not acting properly?

llemon
10-10-2011, 12:50 PM
honestly both...

in the begining i was with the players....it was and still is the owners fault why there is a lockout

but the blame for the players has to start because of the idea of a 50-50 split and the players wouldnt negotiate

both

You may like the idea of a 50/50 split, but players union obviously thinks they can do better.

That is called negotiating.

NJ Raven
10-10-2011, 12:55 PM
Not acting properly?

Yeah. The owners caused this problem in the first place, but at least now they want to restructure like the NHL did and at least attempt to make it a profitable league. Now the players are balking at reasonable requests from the owners (or so says Ken Berger). Then again, I'm kinda rooting for the lockout so happen so I don't have to see the Nets plays.

Tmath
10-10-2011, 12:56 PM
No blame, just negotiations

this.

llemon
10-10-2011, 12:57 PM
Yeah. The owners caused this problem in the first place, but at least now they want to restructure like the NHL did and at least attempt to make it a profitable league. Now the players are balking at reasonable requests from the owners (or so says Ken Berger). Then again, I'm kinda rooting for the lockout so happen so I don't have to see the Nets plays.

Again, these are labor negotiations.

You put on your game face and you get on in there.

sixer04fan
10-10-2011, 12:58 PM
Players.

Vidball
10-10-2011, 01:04 PM
Owners...they want to lower the BRI split for the players by 7% (which would be about a 13% total drop when you think about how that represents going from about 2.3B to 2.0B). They also want guaranteed contracts to be lowered in years, don't want to share the true profits of TV contracts, they want to drastically reduce the MLE, and on and on. What do the players want? To hold on to as much as they can - players are the only ones making any concessions while the owners give profit/loss numbers that don't take into account a large portion of their true net profit. I definitely don't think the owners are the only ones at fault, but with the question of who is more at fault it's an easy answer.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 01:13 PM
You may like the idea of a 50/50 split, but players union obviously thinks they can do better.

That is called negotiating.


noooo.... really????????? :facepalm:

sep11ie
10-10-2011, 01:14 PM
I still blame the owners. They are mad at how much the players make, yet the award them with crazy contracts.

beliges
10-10-2011, 01:19 PM
Both are to blame in this, theres no doubt about that. However people need to remember its the owners that risk their own capital by investing so heavily into owning a franchise. Its the owners that are at risk of losing money from their own pockets. The players are the employees in this business and they get a substantial paycheck to play a game. Its the owners who are trying to keep their businesses successful. The owners have the right to make requests and demands like the ones they are making. I understand the players want to save face but the owners have the right in this case.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-10-2011, 01:20 PM
owners

close thread

Tom Stone
10-10-2011, 01:34 PM
I can't believe people are saying the owners.......The greedy owners want to get it going at any cost......they don't care about an even playing feild....they like to have more money than other owners to exploit that and find themselfs in the finals each year.....The small market owners (the hero's of the situation)......are trying to save basketball... and determined not let basketball turn into a Yankee situation.....because we were heading their real fast.......The players don't care about each team having a fair shot.... there use to the system being broken to benefiting them.......there letting greed be there guide....there moral compass is broke....But throwing crazy amounts of money, at generally low IQ people has a tendency to do that and ruin people.

llemon
10-10-2011, 01:37 PM
noooo.... really????????? :facepalm:

Honestly.

Only mentioned it because you seem to think you know what's best for the union, and obviously the union doesn't agree with you.

cubulls
10-10-2011, 01:38 PM
Players

Owners take the risk and try to earn a reward. The players just get a guaranteed reward. If the players don't like the millions they get for playing a game then they can eat **** and work at McDonalds. The union of ungrateful misfits need a reality check. They need to accept the deal that will still give them millions and play the game that they claim to love.

daleja424
10-10-2011, 01:45 PM
Right at this second... I dont know who to blame anymore. I will decide who to blame after todays meeting if/when we lose games.

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 01:48 PM
Players, why should the owners cave if the majority are going to be losing money anyway?

Hellcrooner
10-10-2011, 01:49 PM
US government.

A COuntry based on Freedom and Capitalism shoudl have NEVER allowed the draft, the salary cap, the maximum salarys, the Restricted FA and so on and on ITs a FREE MARKET LEAD country and EVERYTHING in the country should abide to that rules.

I mean, if people does not have the right for a Sotial Security system out of "freedom" and Liberalism why should Enslaving /Monopolic rules be allowed in a league?


Of course , if we want to make it more superficial an analisys then you have to fault the OWNERs, ALWAYS.

How would you feel if your boss one day decided to say YOU CANT COME TO WORK, and IM NOT PAYING you your salary until you ACCEPT to Lower it a 30%.

In europe a "boss" /owner that did that woudl be in jail in 3 days.

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
US government.

A COuntry based on Freedom and Capitalism shoudl have NEVER allowed the draft, the salary cap, the maximum salarys, the Restricted FA and so on and on ITs a FREE MARKET LEAD country and EVERYTHING in the country should abide to that rules.

I mean, if people does not have the right for a Sotial Security system out of "freedom" and Liberalism why should Enslaving /Monopolic rules be allowed in a league?


Of course , if we want to make it more superficial an analisys then you have to fault the OWNERs, ALWAYS.

How would you feel if your boss one day decided to say YOU CANT COME TO WORK, and IM NOT PAYING you your salary until you ACCEPT to Lower it a 30%.

In europe a "boss" /owner that did that woudl be in jail in 3 days.

Well, if the boss is losing money every year, the alternative is the boss shuts down the business and you take a 100% pay cut...

iggypop123
10-10-2011, 02:07 PM
its the owners they arent really negotiating they just want the player to lose money then theyll talk. their deal seems to be we are going to rape you guys its up to you whether you want some lube or not.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 02:12 PM
Honestly.

Only mentioned it because you seem to think you know what's best for the union, and obviously the union doesn't agree with you.

no i dont know whats best i never said that and you put words into my post...i merley suggested the players didnt want to negotiate after the owners proposed a 50-50 split so of course the players deserve blame as far as the blame pie goes

Hellcrooner
10-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Well, if the boss is losing money every year, the alternative is the boss shuts down the business and you take a 100% pay cut...

Yep, thats a legit option in wich i would have no problem with.
Sometimes Business go broke and employees are fired.


the thing here is, if they are losing so much, how come there are a lot of richmen in line to buy franchises? how much did Warriors sold for?

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 02:13 PM
US government.

A COuntry based on Freedom and Capitalism shoudl have NEVER allowed the draft, the salary cap, the maximum salarys, the Restricted FA and so on and on ITs a FREE MARKET LEAD country and EVERYTHING in the country should abide to that rules.

I mean, if people does not have the right for a Sotial Security system out of "freedom" and Liberalism why should Enslaving /Monopolic rules be allowed in a league?


Of course , if we want to make it more superficial an analisys then you have to fault the OWNERs, ALWAYS.

How would you feel if your boss one day decided to say YOU CANT COME TO WORK, and IM NOT PAYING you your salary until you ACCEPT to Lower it a 30%.

In europe a "boss" /owner that did that woudl be in jail in 3 days.

What are you talking about.. you can't even make that comparison...

first, this isn't just 'one day the owners decided ...' scenario as you describe it... this is an agreement that was made in 2006 and expired in june... each of the two sides had an option to renegotiate the terms at that time.. this is hardly, 'one day the owners said you can't come to work'

second, these are not salaried employees, like you would have everyone think... they are contracted employees based on a CBA... it's a completely different situation than an average american with a salary going to work everyday... when contracts of contracted employees expire (or in this case, the CBA expires) both sides must agree for business to continue... since both sides cannot agree, it has led to a lockout...

llemon
10-10-2011, 02:16 PM
no i dont know whats best i never said that and you put words into my post...i merley suggested the players didnt want to negotiate after the owners proposed a 50-50 split so of course the players deserve blame as far as the blame pie goes

A) That was not a proposal, it was a tactic which the union did not fall for.

B) How can you blame anyone for not accepting something they don't think is fair for the people they represent?

Which brings us back to what YOU think is fair, and let's face it, you don't know squat.

airronijordan
10-10-2011, 02:17 PM
i blame the owners...b/c they didnt take negotiations seriously in the beginning and now they apparently arent gonna accept anything less than 50-50 (i think the deal should be 51-49)

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 02:18 PM
Honestly.

Only mentioned it because you seem to think you know what's best for the union, and obviously the union doesn't agree with you.

union's are not some sole entity... they are a group of people who elect a union leader to represent them and their needs, and that leader should do what is best for the union as a whole... however, history proves that union leaders are easily corrupted and receive kickbacks at the expense of the union they were elected to serve.

Hellcrooner
10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
What are you talking about.. you can't even make that comparison...

first, this isn't just 'one day the owners decided ...' scenario as you describe it... this is an agreement that was made in 2006 and expired in june... each of the two sides had an option to renegotiate the terms at that time.. this is hardly, 'one day the owners said you can't come to work'

second, these are not salaried employees, like you would have everyone think... they are contracted employees based on a CBA... it's a completely different situation than an average american with a salary going to work everyday... when contracts of contracted employees expire (or in this case, the CBA expires) both sides must agree for business to continue... since both sides cannot agree, it has led to a lockout...
Owners have opted out of the CBA teh last three times, NOT PLAYERS.

Second: i dont know how thinks work in Usa, but here in europe EVERY WORKER is under a CBA for their Sector or Production , obviusly those CBA have to be renegotiated sooner or later, and sometimes Owners of the bussines decide to Lockout the Workers ( or the workers go on strike to make force) well, if a certain amount of time has gone trough and no new arrangemente has been made workers can take the Cba to a judge, the judge will allow the OLD cba to go on running ( thus the workers can go to work and receive their salary) until HE ( the judge) decides what demmands of each part are reasonable and then DICTATES a new cba.

I would encourage you not to discuss bout laboral matters with someon who is university graduated in Law and currently prepering himself to get a burocratic job related to the laboral part of the juridic system.

llemon
10-10-2011, 02:20 PM
What are you talking about.. you can't even make that comparison...

first, this isn't just 'one day the owners decided ...' scenario as you describe it... this is an agreement that was made in 2006 and expired in june... each of the two sides had an option to renegotiate the terms at that time.. this is hardly, 'one day the owners said you can't come to work'

second, these are not salaried employees, like you would have everyone think... they are contracted employees based on a CBA... it's a completely different situation than an average american with a salary going to work everyday... when contracts of contracted employees expire (or in this case, the CBA expires) both sides must agree for business to continue... since both sides cannot agree, it has led to a lockout...

The lockout came first, THEN the owners started talking about if they could agree for business to continue.

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Owners have opted out of the CBA teh last three times, NOT PLAYERS.

okay, so what?? they both have the right to...


Second: i dont know how thinks work in Usa, but here in europe EVERY WORKER is under a CBA for their Sector or Production , obviusly those CBA have to be renegotiated sooner or later, and sometimes Owners of the bussines decide to Lockout the Workers ( or the workers go on strike to make force) well, if a certain amount of time has gone trough and no new arrangemente has been made workers can take the Cba to a judge, the judge will allow the OLD cba to go on running ( thus the workers can go to work and receive their salary) until HE ( the judge) decides what demmands of each part are reasonable and then DICTATES a new cba.

right, you don't know how things work in the USA... because that's surely not the case for every worker here...


I would encourage you not to discuss bout laboral matters with someon who is university graduated in Law and currently prepering himself to get a burocratic job related to the laboral part of the juridic system.

thanks for the advise... i would encourage you to remember your own statement... 'i don't know how things work in USA"...

Hellcrooner
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
okay, so what?? they both have the right to...



right, you don't know how things work in the USA... because that's surely not the case for every worker here...



thanks for the advise... i would encourage you to remember your own statement... 'i don't know how things work in USA"...
Well there are several guide lines for law that work in everywhere.

llemon
10-10-2011, 02:36 PM
union's are not some sole entity... they are a group of people who elect a union leader to represent them and their needs, and that leader should do what is best for the union as a whole... however, history proves that union leaders are easily corrupted and receive kickbacks at the expense of the union they were elected to serve.

And you believe that is the case with the NBPA?

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Yep, thats a legit option in wich i would have no problem with.
Sometimes Business go broke and employees are fired.


the thing here is, if they are losing so much, how come there are a lot of richmen in line to buy franchises? how much did Warriors sold for?

The Warriors are one of the few profitable teams.

Bob Johnson bought Charlotte for $300m in 2004 and sold for $175m this past season.

rwynyc
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Its without a doubt the owners. You cannot blame players for accepting bad contracts, but there should be something put in place if a player cannot compete at the level he is being paid for.

The owners are lying when they say they are losing money. You do not become a billionaire by making bad business decisions. You do not buy a basketball team that loses money. They are all lying about the income they generate. There books are def cooked so that they also pay less in tax. So bringing those up in the negotiations is pointless. All businesses cheat on their taxes one way or another.

llemon
10-10-2011, 02:46 PM
The Warriors are one of the few profitable teams.

Bob Johnson bought Charlotte for $300m in 2004 and sold for $175m this past season.

You have to run your business properly if you want to make a profit.

The owners do not have the right to make a profit.

They have the right to have an opportunity at making a profit.

ink
10-10-2011, 02:47 PM
I don't think anyone's at fault. This is just the ugly side of greed and capitalism playing itself out. Why take a side when both parties are equally unsympathetic?

sixer04fan
10-10-2011, 02:49 PM
The owners are lying when they say they are losing money. You do not become a billionaire by making bad business decisions. You do not buy a basketball team that loses money. They are all lying about the income they generate. There books are def cooked so that they also pay less in tax. So bringing those up in the negotiations is pointless. All businesses cheat on their taxes one way or another.

So most billionaires that claim to have lost money over recent years are lying about it?

llemon
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
So most billionaires that claim to have lost money over recent years are lying about it?

Possibly

Rivera
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
A) That was not a proposal, it was a tactic which the union did not fall for.

B) How can you blame anyone for not accepting something they don't think is fair for the people they represent?

Which brings us back to what YOU think is fair, and let's face it, you don't know squat.

:facepalm:

when did i say what i think is fair? i havent even made a proposal that i said is fair i just said both sides are at fault :laugh2:

but go ahead keep making stuff up and keep putting words in my mouth :facepalm:

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 02:57 PM
And you believe that is the case with the NBPA?

probably not, i trust dfish has the players best interests at heart.. but i don't trust hunter for a second..

sixer04fan
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
You guys can whine about the owners making bad investments and such, but in my opinion the player is more at fault for not living up to the contract after the fact. What is Eddy Curry's motivation to play hard if he's guaranteed $10 million per year? The owner gave the man a life of riches and luxury for him and his family, and he returned the favor by being a lazy piece of **** and not trying hard for that owner.

It's a broken system where players don't have incentives to play hard and earn their contract. In the NFL, if you don't play to the level that your contract entails, you get cut. And all those teams ARE profitable. In real life, if you don't do your job well, you get fired. If you don't get fired, then that's bad business and that company will probably lose money. That's what happens in the NBA. Why is it not the same as every other business model for other sports and in real life?

These guys get so much money to play a game and half of them end up going broke. It's pathetic. It's ridiculous that they get over 50% of the revenue split when you see how irresponsible some of them are with that money.

llemon
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
:facepalm:

when did i say what i think is fair? i havent even made a proposal that i said is fair i just said both sides are at fault :laugh2:

but go ahead keep making stuff up and keep putting words in my mouth :facepalm:

How about these words.

You said the players were to blame because owners made 50/50 proposal, and Players wouldn't negotiate.

When the players turned down the 'proposal', it was Stern and the owners who refused to negotiate any further.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 03:03 PM
How about these words.

You said the players were to blame because owners made 50/50 proposal, and Players wouldn't negotiate.

When the players turned down the 'proposal', it was Stern and the owners who refused to negotiate any further.

it doesnt mean i know whats right or wrong fair or foul like your suggesting

im just going by the reports...reports stated stern asked the players if they would negotiate with a 50-50 revenue split...players said no...hence why players get part of the blame along with owners...the players arent angels

now go ahead twist my words again and quote me on something that i didnt say

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 03:04 PM
You have to run your business properly if you want to make a profit.

The owners do not have the right to make a profit.

They have the right to have an opportunity at making a profit.

They are losing money, they have the right to cease operation to protect their assets and they have the right to alter their business in order for it to be run properly.

Today they are trying to alter their business, tomorrow the owners will cease operation to protect their assets.

sixer04fan
10-10-2011, 03:07 PM
They are losing money, they have the right to cease operation to protect their assets and they have the right to alter their business in order for it to be run properly.

Today they are trying to alter their business, tomorrow the owners will cease operation to protect their assets.

This.

llemon
10-10-2011, 03:08 PM
it doesnt mean i know whats right or wrong fair or foul like your suggesting

im just going by the reports...reports stated stern asked the players if they would negotiate with a 50-50 revenue split...players said no...hence why players get part of the blame along with owners...the players arent angels

now go ahead twist my words again and quote me on something that i didnt say

You are blaming the players because they turned down a proposal that they didn't think was fair, causing owners to cease negotiations

And this ain't about devils and angels. It's about labor negotiations.

And you obviously think 50/50 is a fair offer because you blame the players for turning it down.

Soxsnation4life
10-10-2011, 03:08 PM
I honestly don't care who's at fault. I just hope they can some how get their **** together by November!

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
One more thing, if the owners really are "cooking the books", can they afford not to have a season? If they really are making so much money as some of you posters claim, would they really forfeit the profit of this upcoming season and the momentum from last just to gain a largesr percentage of a pie that is likely to shrink next season?

llemon
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
One more thing, if the owners really are "cooking the books", can they afford not to have a season? If they really are making so much money as some of you posters claim, would they really forfeit the profit of this upcoming season and the momentum from last just to gain a largesr percentage of a pie that is likely to shrink next season?

Not sure 'afford' is the right word to use.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
You are blaming the players because they turned down a proposal that they didn't think was fair, causing owners to cease negotiations

And this ain't about devils and angels. It's about labor negotiations.

And you obviously think 50/50 is a fair offer because you blame the players for turning it down.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

again keep putting words in my mouth...i never said its fair or even what i would do....im blaming the players for not continuing to negotiate until this pretty pathetic "hail mary" attempt....

now that i spelled it out i hope your happy....now stop putting words in my mouth

llemon
10-10-2011, 03:15 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

again keep putting words in my mouth...i never said its fair or even what i would do....im blaming the players for not continuing to negotiate....

now that i spelled it out i hope your happy....now stop putting words in my mouth

R-E-A-D S-L-O-W-L-Y. After the union turned down the 50/50 'proposal', it was management who shut down the negotiations.

NJ Raven
10-10-2011, 03:16 PM
The owners are the reason the NBA is what it is now. Not working. They all saw how the NHL reformatted their league and got jelly so I'm assuming they will mimmick the hockey owners and their new system that actually works.

NJ Raven
10-10-2011, 03:16 PM
PSD would suck without llemon.

Rivera
10-10-2011, 03:20 PM
R-E-A-D S-L-O-W-L-Y. After the union turned down the 50/50 'proposal', it was management who shut down the negotiations.

great way to change the subject because that has to do with what i think is fair or not :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

at least this time you didnt put words in my mouth

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Not sure 'afford' is the right word to use.

Semantics

C_Mund
10-10-2011, 03:25 PM
It's the owner's fault that we're in this mess in the first place, but it's the players' fault that we can't dig our way out. The players are so used to being overpayed that they won't accept anything less.
The entire NHL was going to to under when they locked out, the players accepted less money and now the league is (for the most part) profitable even though it generates far less revenue than the NBA.

I was hoping to see a resolution on Sunday night, but that would have been a quick fix to the situation and we'd be back to square one in a couple years. We need an overhaul, and players need to realize that they don't deserve six million a year to play 25 effective minutes a night. I hope they come to a decision in which the owners are penalized for their previous mistakes (ie: no give-backs on current contrtacts), but we can change the guaranteed-contract system and lower the cap. If players want to make most of the revenue they should put their money where their mouth is and take a larger role in running the league or even start their own. Maybe then they'll see that a company's actual product is only a part of whole system.

Slimsim
10-10-2011, 03:29 PM
players

ChiSox219
10-10-2011, 03:35 PM
I have a quick question for anyone who's real familiar with the NBA's economic system:

If the players are guaranteed a percentage of the league's revenue, the owners are required to pay out the 57% no matter if they give the best or worst contracts?

mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 03:48 PM
If we don't get a deal, then I want ONE of them to OWN it publicly

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
I have a quick question for anyone who's real familiar with the NBA's economic system:

If the players are guaranteed a percentage of the league's revenue, the owners are required to pay out the 57% no matter if they give the best or worst contracts?

I know they withhold about 9% of nba contracts and put them into escrow until the year is over, to make sure the BRI is 57%... this year they had to repay the full 9% to the players average of 500K per player...

i'm not sure what it means in terms of contracts, though... maybe the owners would payout more money if the year was exceptional... i would imagine it's percentage based... players could get a 1-10% bonus based on BRI..

sep11ie
10-10-2011, 04:18 PM
US government.

A COuntry based on Freedom and Capitalism shoudl have NEVER allowed the draft, the salary cap, the maximum salarys, the Restricted FA and so on and on ITs a FREE MARKET LEAD country and EVERYTHING in the country should abide to that rules.

I mean, if people does not have the right for a Sotial Security system out of "freedom" and Liberalism why should Enslaving /Monopolic rules be allowed in a league?


Of course , if we want to make it more superficial an analisys then you have to fault the OWNERs, ALWAYS.

How would you feel if your boss one day decided to say YOU CANT COME TO WORK, and IM NOT PAYING you your salary until you ACCEPT to Lower it a 30%.

In europe a "boss" /owner that did that woudl be in jail in 3 days.

The NBA isn't run by the U.S. Government.

llemon
10-10-2011, 04:43 PM
great way to change the subject because that has to do with what i think is fair or not :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

at least this time you didnt put words in my mouth

You blamed the players because they turned down the 50/50 'proposal'

So naturally, I thought you believed the union turned down a fair offer.

So now, you no longer blame the players.

And stop smacking your head. Maybe that's why you got the story wrong in the first place, because you have smacked yourself in the head too many times.

Byronicle
10-10-2011, 04:48 PM
if i could make 50k a year playing the game i love, then i would be a very very happy man

all these players are really doing is just playing a game they are passionate about to entertain.

llemon
10-10-2011, 04:52 PM
if i could make 50k a year playing the game i love, then i would be a very very happy man

all these players are really doing is just playing a game they are passionate about to entertain.

Easy to say. I think we've almost all said the same thing at one time, even some NBA players.

But if people were making money off of you, you'd probably feel differently.

Human beings are a complicated animal.

mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 05:14 PM
Now come on llemon; if you work for some business, then they make money off you whether you are dunking a basketball or making a basketball.
I think I'll put up a poll for how many posters own businesses and how many WORK for businesses and how many are still at home. :)
And yes , as of today, I blame the OWNERS but day ain't over yet.

llemon
10-10-2011, 05:41 PM
Now come on llemon; if you work for some business, then they make money off you whether you are dunking a basketball or making a basketball.
I think I'll put up a poll for how many posters own businesses and how many WORK for businesses and how many are still at home. :)
And yes , as of today, I blame the OWNERS but day ain't over yet.

And again, I will say I blame neither party. This is what labor negotiations are about. It is not about winning friends.

However, I certainly have no faith in anything the owners say.

They've lied, stolen, cheated, intimidated and in some cases killed to amass their fortunes.

No reason for them to suddenly stop any of that in labor negotiations.

mccschamb
10-10-2011, 05:54 PM
players

llemon
10-10-2011, 06:14 PM
players

Good choice.

Rocco Gandolfo
10-10-2011, 06:25 PM
I am a business owner. I have owned my own business for over 20 years. I have employed many many people over the years. Some of them were good workers. Some were a waste of space. Some were awesome. I could not have served my customers as good as I did without this "elite" group. They are what makes the business go.
As great as they were, It was me who paid the rent each month. When Equipment broke down, I wrote the check for repair or replacement. When the storm forced water into the store, the police called me. I went down there at 3AM to make sure the store would be OK to open 3 hours later. I paid the gas, the electric, the cable, the phone and the insurance. The bills that came in the mail were addressed to me, in my name. I never once in over 20 years had one of my employees pay a bill that was due. Why? Because I was the owner.
That responsibility fell solely on my shoulders. As long as I paid my workers what was fair, and agreed upon we were open for business.
Some years were great and I made money. Some years were lean and I made less. When gas hit almost $5 a gallon, the cost of everything I bought for the store went through the roof. I actually lost money. Problem is, this is what I do. I love what I do. I dont ever want to stop doing this.
And last week three of my employees came in asking for a raise. The fact is, the money just isnt there. If I were to agree to pay my employees more money then I was making I would be a fool.
The players are wrong here. Plaion and simple. They are making enough and if owners are losing money, than something needs to change. 50/50 split is as fair as it gets. If the NBAPA does not agree, than start your own league. Pay the lights, the rent, the front offices and keep all the money for yourself. The second the players realize they are worse off, losing money as owners in smaller markets that are not NY, CHI, MIA, LA or Dallas, they would pray for the owners to take back over.

_KB24_
10-10-2011, 06:34 PM
The Tea Party :mad:

justinnum1
10-10-2011, 06:49 PM
some of the owners

Rivera
10-10-2011, 07:51 PM
You blamed the players because they turned down the 50/50 'proposal'

So naturally, I thought you believed the union turned down a fair offer.

So now, you no longer blame the players.

And stop smacking your head. Maybe that's why you got the story wrong in the first place, because you have smacked yourself in the head too many times.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

again ive clearly stated blame for both sides...stop being a prick and stop putting words in my mouth

stop assuming **** or what people say cause you make yourself look bad

llemon
10-10-2011, 08:04 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

again ive clearly stated blame for both sides...stop being a prick and stop putting words in my mouth

stop assuming **** or what people say cause you make yourself look bad

riverm, I've been around for a good number of years, and I know what someone is saying when they say it, despite their later feeble attempts to use semantics to defend the incorrect and ridiculous things they say.

You may continue to babble on if you like, but if anyone with a modicum of intelligence bothers to follow our thread (although I couldn't see why anyone with a modicum of intelligence would), everything should be relatively evident.

mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Maybe this will be a daily poll until this drama is done. Hmmmmmm

rwynyc
10-10-2011, 08:14 PM
So most billionaires that claim to have lost money over recent years are lying about it?

I am not speaking generally. People lose money all the time. My point is a billionaire is not going to buy a losing business that has no chance of turning a profit.

rwynyc
10-10-2011, 08:18 PM
You guys can whine about the owners making bad investments and such, but in my opinion the player is more at fault for not living up to the contract after the fact. What is Eddy Curry's motivation to play hard if he's guaranteed $10 million per year? The owner gave the man a life of riches and luxury for him and his family, and he returned the favor by being a lazy piece of **** and not trying hard for that owner.

It's a broken system where players don't have incentives to play hard and earn their contract. In the NFL, if you don't play to the level that your contract entails, you get cut. And all those teams ARE profitable. In real life, if you don't do your job well, you get fired. If you don't get fired, then that's bad business and that company will probably lose money. That's what happens in the NBA. Why is it not the same as every other business model for other sports and in real life?

These guys get so much money to play a game and half of them end up going broke. It's pathetic. It's ridiculous that they get over 50% of the revenue split when you see how irresponsible some of them are with that money.

I agree that if you cannot produce you should not get paid the big bucks. If you are inured for years you should not get paid.

I do not agree that players making bad financial decisions should have any baring on a new labor agreement,

Twinsfan24
10-10-2011, 08:23 PM
The main reason we are in a lockout is because of the superstar players joining together and knowing many years in advance they are going too. The salary cap system right now is pathetic. Teams such as the lakers, celtics, heat, etc... are all over the cap with superstars and yet are still signing more. Ya I know the mid level exception blah blah how they get away with it is still beyond me. I have no problem with the oweners wanting to get the system right. Also the 50/50 split is perfectly fine with me. Since when in america has the employees of a company been able to make more than the owners?

llemon
10-10-2011, 08:26 PM
I agree that if you cannot produce you should not get paid the big bucks. If you are inured for years you should not get paid.

Those two sentences could produce a whole new style of NBA play.

SwatTeam
10-10-2011, 08:50 PM
I am a business owner. I have owned my own business for over 20 years. I have employed many many people over the years. Some of them were good workers. Some were a waste of space. Some were awesome. I could not have served my customers as good as I did without this "elite" group. They are what makes the business go.
As great as they were, It was me who paid the rent each month. When Equipment broke down, I wrote the check for repair or replacement. When the storm forced water into the store, the police called me. I went down there at 3AM to make sure the store would be OK to open 3 hours later. I paid the gas, the electric, the cable, the phone and the insurance. The bills that came in the mail were addressed to me, in my name. I never once in over 20 years had one of my employees pay a bill that was due. Why? Because I was the owner.
That responsibility fell solely on my shoulders. As long as I paid my workers what was fair, and agreed upon we were open for business.
Some years were great and I made money. Some years were lean and I made less. When gas hit almost $5 a gallon, the cost of everything I bought for the store went through the roof. I actually lost money. Problem is, this is what I do. I love what I do. I dont ever want to stop doing this.
And last week three of my employees came in asking for a raise. The fact is, the money just isnt there. If I were to agree to pay my employees more money then I was making I would be a fool.
The players are wrong here. Plaion and simple. They are making enough and if owners are losing money, than something needs to change. 50/50 split is as fair as it gets. If the NBAPA does not agree, than start your own league. Pay the lights, the rent, the front offices and keep all the money for yourself. The second the players realize they are worse off, losing money as owners in smaller markets that are not NY, CHI, MIA, LA or Dallas, they would pray for the owners to take back over.

Stop comparing small businesses to CORPORATIONS. Stop comparing what you make to get by to what professional athletes make. The NBA is not run in the model a small business is. This is not the owner's main source of income. This is their hobby as their BILLIONS were made through other ventures. Some people are better at their hobbies than others, that's just the facts. If you suck at your hobby, maybe you should pursue others. BUT owners rarely sell teams to others. I wonder why? Your small business is your life/career, this is not the owners life/career that is on the line here. They are playing with house money. They were always in the green to begin with. Players are NOT asking the owners for more money. Let's get that straight. They are willing to negotiate down 4% of the BRI from 57%. The owners want them to go down +10% w/o fully disclosing their books and showing the profits they make from their arena's for example. (Good story at Grantland.com of the nets owner making a killing off his arena deal yet claiming a loss as the Net's owner). I blame the owners, I always will. I don't feel remorse for people playing with house money. Remember, this is their hobby not their careers. They own NBA teams like they own yachts and summer homes.

llemon
10-10-2011, 09:03 PM
I am a business owner. I have owned my own business for over 20 years. I have employed many many people over the years. Some of them were good workers. Some were a waste of space. Some were awesome. I could not have served my customers as good as I did without this "elite" group. They are what makes the business go.
As great as they were, It was me who paid the rent each month. When Equipment broke down, I wrote the check for repair or replacement. When the storm forced water into the store, the police called me. I went down there at 3AM to make sure the store would be OK to open 3 hours later. I paid the gas, the electric, the cable, the phone and the insurance. The bills that came in the mail were addressed to me, in my name. I never once in over 20 years had one of my employees pay a bill that was due. Why? Because I was the owner.
That responsibility fell solely on my shoulders. As long as I paid my workers what was fair, and agreed upon we were open for business.
Some years were great and I made money. Some years were lean and I made less. When gas hit almost $5 a gallon, the cost of everything I bought for the store went through the roof. I actually lost money. Problem is, this is what I do. I love what I do. I dont ever want to stop doing this.
And last week three of my employees came in asking for a raise. The fact is, the money just isnt there. If I were to agree to pay my employees more money then I was making I would be a fool.
The players are wrong here. Plaion and simple. They are making enough and if owners are losing money, than something needs to change. 50/50 split is as fair as it gets. If the NBAPA does not agree, than start your own league. Pay the lights, the rent, the front offices and keep all the money for yourself. The second the players realize they are worse off, losing money as owners in smaller markets that are not NY, CHI, MIA, LA or Dallas, they would pray for the owners to take back over.

"50/50 split is as fair as it gets"? You say that without having any idea about the dynamics of running a business inside a structured league.

Now, I don't believe you run a business.

mzgrizz
10-10-2011, 09:10 PM
I've run a business and it is NOT easy. I think what swat team said is true. These are Big Boy hobbies for these guys and not run as their businesses that made them billions. Think Mark Cuban and Donald Sterling and Jeanie Buss,,,,these come to mind quickly. So my "owners" blame for 10/10/11 still sticks.

DR_1
10-10-2011, 09:51 PM
Players. Take the 50-50! I don't care if it's really 47-53, you make enough already!

BranWingss
10-10-2011, 09:56 PM
It's usually both sides in the majority of arguments, and since we don't know too much here, I'd say it's just that.

daleja424
10-10-2011, 10:40 PM
Given what I know after tonight. Owners and it isn't even close.

IDB Josh M
10-10-2011, 10:45 PM
Owners, if you're an owner that cannot turn a profit on an American Professional Sports team, you are by far an very bad business man. If you pay a bloated contract to a terrible player, that's nobody else's fault but your scouts and the management. Now these teams are losing money, and now they want a bailout from those teams that are turning a profit.

F-that Shizzle!

Byronicle
10-11-2011, 12:03 AM
Easy to say. I think we've almost all said the same thing at one time, even some NBA players.

But if people were making money off of you, you'd probably feel differently.

Human beings are a complicated animal.

but that is part of any type of business. players are the salesmen trying to sell a product (entertainment) and attract revenues for the owners to profit. the owners started the business

you got the boss (owners) and the labourers (players). in any business, unless you are the owner, you are the one making money for the boss, the players are the producers.

which is why growing up, i've always been told to become my own boss and start up my own business if i didn't want to take crap

Byronicle
10-11-2011, 12:05 AM
thing is we always knew owners just care about the money. they do not deny it or try to hide it

its the players who claim they always cared about the fans, that it is always about the fans. if this was true, then play the damn game, and if you want to teach the NBA owners a lesson, then start a league for us fans to follow

Bravo95
10-11-2011, 12:51 AM
So let's see: The owners want to minimize the risk, subsidize the losses, and privatize the profits. Sounds like the recent trend of most American businesses. But no one should be angry or anything like that because this is how negotiations go and how business gets done.

3mikee_
10-11-2011, 01:03 AM
Didn't wanna go through 7 pages of posts.. but I can't understand how people are on the Owner's side and saying it's the player's fault... This is **** is happening all because of the owners and it's not even close.

LA_Raiders
10-11-2011, 01:12 AM
Players... Owners Own the Teams, not the greedy players...

They get paid to play... So play and STFU....

LA_Raiders
10-11-2011, 01:23 AM
I can't believe people are saying the owners.......The greedy owners want to get it going at any cost......they don't care about an even playing feild....they like to have more money than other owners to exploit that and find themselfs in the finals each year.....The small market owners (the hero's of the situation)......are trying to save basketball... and determined not let basketball turn into a Yankee situation.....because we were heading their real fast.......The players don't care about each team having a fair shot.... there use to the system being broken to benefiting them.......there letting greed be there guide....there moral compass is broke....But throwing crazy amounts of money, at generally low IQ people has a tendency to do that and ruin people.

:clap::clap::clap:

beasted86
10-11-2011, 01:49 AM
I honestly can't see how any fans can say it's not the owners fault.

1) The owners sign the contracts, not the players. I don't want to hear any garbage about trying to compete because teams like the Knicks overpaid for years and went straight to the lottery every year.

2) The owners went into negotiations with it's first proposal of changing the entire way basketball as we know it operates: hard cap, non-guaranteed, lower salaries all around, less years all around, no exceptions to cap, no sign & trade, no bird rights, no tethering to league growth... I mean, seriously? Then 4 months later they are supposedly at a point where they are ready to keep most of the system intact. If that's not a transparent rouse of a negotiation tactic for "imaginary concessions", I don't know what is.

But that's a fan perspective, from a mere business standpoint I can reason with both. As an owner you want a profit on your business. As a player you want to be compensated as the product that makes the NBA run. Owners have every right to want players to take less, but at the same time, players have the right to not want to play for what they want to offer. If everyone woke up tomorrow and went into work faced with the ultimatum of taking 25% less than you earn right now , and them also adding you had no chance of a raise as well, the majority of people would either quit immediately or start looking for a new job as soon as they got home from work that very night. You wouldn't just swallow it with the understanding of "well, my boss needs to turn a profit", you'd be looking out for your own interests. You know you are a professional, and you have an idea of what your job should pay... regardless of how good or bad your boss' company is doing.

Wade>You
10-11-2011, 02:01 AM
36 people here believe in Socialism.

Cal827
10-11-2011, 02:01 AM
I blame Dnewguy he's ALWAYS at fault... just kidding :D

This is clearly the owner's fault... they didn't really seem to show any initiative in negotiations.. (they should have made a LOT more meetings well before now).. It seems like they are trying to choke the players into submission (as now the players will start feeling it in their checks, which might force Fisher into an unfair deal)... They should consider a lawsuit, claiming that the owners/commish aren't negotiating in good faith.

Rocco Gandolfo
10-11-2011, 02:07 AM
Stop comparing small businesses to CORPORATIONS. Stop comparing what you make to get by to what professional athletes make. The NBA is not run in the model a small business is. This is not the owner's main source of income. This is their hobby as their BILLIONS were made through other ventures. Some people are better at their hobbies than others, that's just the facts. If you suck at your hobby, maybe you should pursue others. BUT owners rarely sell teams to others. I wonder why? Your small business is your life/career, this is not the owners life/career that is on the line here. They are playing with house money. They were always in the green to begin with. Players are NOT asking the owners for more money. Let's get that straight. They are willing to negotiate down 4% of the BRI from 57%. The owners want them to go down +10% w/o fully disclosing their books and showing the profits they make from their arena's for example. (Good story at Grantland.com of the nets owner making a killing off his arena deal yet claiming a loss as the Net's owner). I blame the owners, I always will. I don't feel remorse for people playing with house money. Remember, this is their hobby not their careers. They own NBA teams like they own yachts and summer homes.

Could not disagree more. Business is business. Mayber James Dolan, Marc Cuban and the Maloofs have tons of extra income, but they did not get that way making ridiculous revenue losing business decisions. This is not only entertainment but a business,
Do motion picture studios with rich pockets take a chance to lose big money just so they can say Brad Pitt was in their Movie? Like its some sort of "gift" to us the movie going fans to see a movie that they were willing to lose 120 million on? It's business. If the Millers in Utah are losing money on the Jazz why is that OK? Because they also own car dealerships? That is juvenile thinking at its worst. No one gets into this Multi million dollar industry for a HOBBY. They are just as entitled to make money on their venture as in any other area, The Players just want it all, who can blame them, but they are wrong here. Is NO NBA what you want here? Because that is exactly what is going to happen if the players don't come down.

jbcool55
10-11-2011, 03:38 AM
Where has the game gone since the years of players that played for the Love of the game, Payer's like Oscar, Maravich, and others that thought more about the game than the money. This is what the younger generation has come to greed and selfishness. I know some of the players that started the game have to be very disappointed in the player's of today.

There is no LOVE just how much can we make off you. And the fan you don't realize that when you want more they pay more. I know the fans are a after thought we are trying to fill our pockets. But the fan that know's the game know that you players are making more money than any other sport. Some of you will never be able to spend the money that you are making unless you do selfishly.

You all should be thankful that you are being blessed to be able to make the kind of money that you make for playing a kids game oh i forgot you have been pamperd for so long that greed and selfishness have consummed you beyond anyone or anything else. But I do believe if you keep on your path of BASONOPOLY FAME,you will one day pay for you greed and selfishness.

That is one thing promised that to much of anything like greed,and selfishness will one day be the end of you. The owners wnat you to keep the game alive and well but they are the cause of your they pamperd but did not teach. Poor fans and small market teams the greed will eat you up first oh well we probably want have a good championship team before the league folds anyway.

For the one's that no there is no limit to greed but those that are infested with it will be punished for it one day. I don't believe that employee stuff if you go bankrupt and other kids that have desire such as you did to play there will be nothing left for them STOP THINKING OF YOURSELF. You are not starving neither is your families but there other's that might. YOU ALREADY HAVE PARK PLACE AND BOARDWALK.

abe_froman
10-11-2011, 03:59 AM
^ no they didnt,i have no idea why there are some people who think there was once a magical time when no one cared about money? i mean where does someone even get such an idea.

on a side note why do people ***** about millionaires being greedy,but never billionaires.like somehow the line where you become exempt from criticism is the 1b mark.

IBleedPurple
10-11-2011, 07:24 AM
Players. They have no risk like the owners, and get paid plenty already. Somewhere in that range us fine.

UPRock
10-11-2011, 08:39 AM
Owners.

daleja424
10-11-2011, 08:52 AM
Players. They have no risk like the owners, and get paid plenty already. Somewhere in that range us fine.

1. What risk do the owners have? The players have already offered to cover all of their "losses" but the owners want more.

2. Players have offered to take a 7-12% paycut this year. They are not asking for more money...they are just unwilling to take a 15+% paycut. Would you take a 15% paycut without fighting it?

GENERAL NOTE: Anyone who blames the players at this point, after seeing what we have seen, probably needs to do some reading on the subject. The players have negociated and made a ton of concession... the owners have not made a single one. If this goes to court the NBA owners are going to get demolished... without question. This is textbook bad faith negotiating...and the players could be rewarded up to 6 billion dollars if they file suit and win.

Shmontaine
10-11-2011, 11:25 AM
I honestly can't see how any fans can say it's not the owners fault.

1) The owners sign the contracts, not the players. I don't want to hear any garbage about trying to compete because teams like the Knicks overpaid for years and went straight to the lottery every year.

2) The owners went into negotiations with it's first proposal of changing the entire way basketball as we know it operates: hard cap, non-guaranteed, lower salaries all around, less years all around, no exceptions to cap, no sign & trade, no bird rights, no tethering to league growth... I mean, seriously? Then 4 months later they are supposedly at a point where they are ready to keep most of the system intact. If that's not a transparent rouse of a negotiation tactic for "imaginary concessions", I don't know what is.

But that's a fan perspective, from a mere business standpoint I can reason with both. As an owner you want a profit on your business. As a player you want to be compensated as the product that makes the NBA run. Owners have every right to want players to take less, but at the same time, players have the right to not want to play for what they want to offer. If everyone woke up tomorrow and went into work faced with the ultimatum of taking 25% less than you earn right now , and them also adding you had no chance of a raise as well, the majority of people would either quit immediately or start looking for a new job as soon as they got home from work that very night. You wouldn't just swallow it with the understanding of "well, my boss needs to turn a profit", you'd be looking out for your own interests. You know you are a professional, and you have an idea of what your job should pay... regardless of how good or bad your boss' company is doing.

except that's not the situation... this isn't 'one day'... this was a planned expiration of an agreement where everyone was expecting a work stoppage and renegotiation process... so, you can't compare it to everyday workers making a salary that's 'indefinite'...

also, are you claiming that the players haven't gotten a raise in the last 10 years???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/db8a3f11af484822e4d075a662be4825.png

their pay has gone up every year.... why does everyone keep saying they take pay cut after pay cut... a pay cut, by definition, is a reduction in salary... not percentage, but actual salary...

beasted86
10-11-2011, 11:35 AM
On July 8th the day the lockout started, the owners official proposal was a 45% BRI split, and a capped revenue of no more than 2 billion over 10 years... so yes, my analogy eludes to the situation of an overnight overhaul pay cut with no raises for next 10 years.

If that proposal was merely a negotiation tactic, then I still say the owners are at fault for bad faith negotiating.

mttwlsn16
10-11-2011, 11:46 AM
billionaires fighting millionaires
theyre both at fault, and both ********

Shmontaine
10-11-2011, 11:51 AM
On July 8th the day the lockout started, the owners official proposal was a 45% BRI split, and a capped revenue of no more than 2 billion over 10 years... so yes, my analogy eludes to the situation of an overnight overhaul pay cut with no raises for next 10 years.

If that proposal was merely a negotiation tactic, then I still say the owners are at fault for bad faith negotiating.

i would agree with you here, the owners have been trying to squeeze the players from the beginning...