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PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 01:53 PM
From the 1999-2000 season to the 2009-2010 season who do you guys think was the #2 NBA player of the 2000s decade?

Copied and paste from JB's rules....


RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


The List

1. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657184)

Cal827
10-09-2011, 02:07 PM
Duncan for me on this one... I think that 2 and 3 are going to be Duncan/Shaq respectively (unless a lot of Laker fans jump Shaq this time). Duncan could do it all, he'll likely go down as the best power forward of all time.

KnicksorBust
10-09-2011, 02:11 PM
Duncan. More consistent as Shaq. Just as successful as Shaq. True Leader. Better 2 way player. Decade long all-nba player and all-defensive player.

Chacarron
10-09-2011, 02:39 PM
Note - Swashcuff has been officially been banned from this discussion. His vote will no longer count and I recommend towards everyone contributing in this thread to not even bothering reading any of his opinions. All he does is steal other opinions on other sites anyways so it is not like YOU can't see another viewpoint yourself. :laugh: Who are YOU to ban anyone from voting? :laugh:

Anyway, my vote goes to Timmy.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 02:43 PM
:laugh: Who are YOU to ban anyone from voting? :laugh:

Anyway, my vote goes to Timmy.
Who am I? The guy who started this little poll/discussion/project

Chacarron
10-09-2011, 02:45 PM
Who am I? The guy who started this little poll/discussion/project

You still have no right to exclude people, especially someone like Swashcuff who contributes to many threads with good insight, from participating in threads made in an open forum.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 02:48 PM
You still have no right to exclude people, especially someone like Swashcuff who contributes to many threads with good insight, from participating in threads made in an open forum.
Actually I do. I have every right to exclude a guy who, can't think for himself, steals other people's insights from different sites, trolls and personally attack others including myself on another site that I post in, so yeah I have every right to do whatever I want. Deal with it.

210Don
10-09-2011, 02:51 PM
Duncan. More consistent as Shaq. Just as successful as Shaq. True Leader. Better 2 way player. Decade long all-nba player and all-defensive player.

couldnt had said it better myself. :clap:

Hangtime
10-09-2011, 04:19 PM
Duncan. More consistent as Shaq. Just as successful as Shaq. True Leader. Better 2 way player. Decade long all-nba player and all-defensive player.

Couldn't agree more with this excellent post.

el_primo_nano
10-09-2011, 04:32 PM
Tim Duncan has 4 rings to show for his effort. Going to go down as a top 50 player when it is all said and done

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Tim Duncan has 4 rings to show for his effort. Going to go down as a top 50 player when it is all said and done

More like top 10.

naps
10-09-2011, 04:35 PM
Actually I do. I have every right to exclude a guy who, can't think for himself, steals other people's insights from different sites, trolls and personally attack others including myself on another site that I post in, so yeah I have every right to do whatever I want. Deal with it.

hmmm, familiar tone. You said the exact same things from your other account righter after this one got banned. Sadly, that account didn't last more than 2 days. I give you one week with this one. Let's see how my prediction plays out. Good luck.

Anyway, I will be fine with either Shaq or Timmy here. The top 3 is a lock. It gets interesting right after top 3.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 04:38 PM
hmmm, familiar tone. You said the exact same things from your other account righter after this one got banned. Sadly, that account didn't last more than 2 days. I give you one week with this one. Let's see how my prediction plays out. Good luck.

Anyway, I will be fine with either Shaq or Timmy here. The top 3 is a lock. It gets interesting right after top 3.
I was lurking on the site when BigDiesel32 was posting. You know you can still view the site when you are suspended right? Anyways, there is nothing anybody can do to get the guy unbanned. He is done here and I am done with him.

Cal827
10-09-2011, 04:39 PM
Pinnacle, I probably would just move to 4th, cause Duncan and Shaq will get 2nd and 3rd overall... at 4 it gets interesting though, cause there's a wide list of players who could be considered: Wade, Lebron, Garnett, Dirk, AI will all probably get a good amount of votes.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 04:45 PM
Pinnacle, I probably would just move to 4th, cause Duncan and Shaq will get 2nd and 3rd overall... at 4 it gets interesting though, cause there's a wide list of players who could be considered: Wade, Lebron, Garnett, Dirk, AI will all probably get a good amount of votes.
Well we gotta figure out the order for 3 and 4 though. I'll give this poll 5 days or until this discussion becomes inactive. But yeah it will get really interesting during #4 and #5.

KnicksorBust
10-09-2011, 06:24 PM
Well we gotta figure out the order for 3 and 4 though. I'll give this poll 5 days or until this discussion becomes inactive. But yeah it will get really interesting during #4 and #5.

The order for 3 and 4? Whose got a chance against Shaq for #3? Personally this what I'm lookin at:

2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Garnett
5. Dirk

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 06:27 PM
The order for 3 and 4? Whose got a chance against Shaq for #3? Personally this what I'm lookin at:

2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Garnett
5. Dirk
I'm not sure if Dirk is going to make it over either Wade or LeBron. Remember from 99-00 to 09-10.

knightstemplar
10-09-2011, 06:29 PM
Shaq 3peated averaging 31/15, 30/15, 29/13 in the playoff runs
and was arguably the greatest Finals performer of alltime, averaging 36/15 during the 3peat Finals
thats my pick

beliges
10-09-2011, 06:33 PM
Only because Shaq fell off drasitcally starting from the 04 season i would have to say Timmy D at 2 and Shaq at 3.

Chronz
10-09-2011, 06:55 PM
Im a huge believer in PEAK over Longevity and Im a huge fan of Shaq but why exactly is everyone convinced he should be picked after Duncan? Usually in the All-Time rankings people ignore peak play and favor longevity but in a discussion about a singular decade, no one cares if Shaq was done as a star after 05? Thats 5 years of meh play, wouldnt you rather have Dirk for the full decade or KG?

PS for the record I would vote Shaq at 3, it just seems odd that all of a sudden people care about PEAK.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 06:56 PM
Peak Duncan is not too far behind Peak Shaq.....

BillyHoyle35
10-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Duncan simply because he never demanded a trade / was traded. Im picking as who i would rather on my team for a whole decade. Shaq tended to wear out his welcome, duncan would be much more reliable to build around. They both are winners and were absolute beasts.

beliges
10-09-2011, 07:35 PM
Peak Shaq is better than peak Duncan. But as far as the decade goes, Duncan was more consistently dominant than Shaq was.

KnicksorBust
10-09-2011, 08:52 PM
I'm not sure if Dirk is going to make it over either Wade or LeBron. Remember from 99-00 to 09-10.

Wade and LeBron missed the first 4 seasons of the decade. It's tough to put them over a guy like KG or Dirk who gave 10 quality seasons and a championship each.

KnicksorBust
10-09-2011, 08:54 PM
Im a huge believer in PEAK over Longevity and Im a huge fan of Shaq but why exactly is everyone convinced he should be picked after Duncan? Usually in the All-Time rankings people ignore peak play and favor longevity but in a discussion about a singular decade, no one cares if Shaq was done as a star after 05? Thats 5 years of meh play, wouldnt you rather have Dirk for the full decade or KG?

PS for the record I would vote Shaq at 3, it just seems odd that all of a sudden people care about PEAK.

Peak Duncan carried the Spurs to a decade of 60 win seasons and multiple championships. He's the only guy with that success whose peak carried him almost the whole decade.

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 09:30 PM
Wade and LeBron missed the first 4 seasons of the decade. It's tough to put them over a guy like KG or Dirk who gave 10 quality seasons and a championship each.

Still hard to ignore LeBron's dominance of 2 MVPs and Wade's 2006 Finals MVP where he dominated Dirk to get it.

I might put LeBron over KG too.

Hangtime
10-09-2011, 09:52 PM
KG played at an all star competitive level from start to finish. A factor in all ten years of the decade. Isn't that what this thread was suppose to be about?

PinnacleFlash
10-09-2011, 10:00 PM
KG played at an all star competitive level from start to finish. A factor in all ten years of the decade. Isn't that what this thread was suppose to be about?

This thread is all about who you think are the best players of the decade. You determine what "best" means.

ewmania
10-10-2011, 12:18 AM
shocking how wade has 2 votes and garnett has zero... garnett won a chip, defensive player of the year and MVP that decade


but anyway, duncan on this one

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 10:55 AM
Since it CLEARLY should have been Duncan the first time around, I'll vote for him again in hopes that the ignorant PSD masses don't see "Shaq" and vote without any actual thought (as they usual do).

beliges
10-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Since it CLEARLY should have been Duncan the first time around, I'll vote for him again in hopes that the ignorant PSD masses don't see "Shaq" and vote without any actual thought (as they usual do).

Clearly not. Duncan did not win as much nor did he achieve as much success or dominated the decade as much as Kobe did. Hence Kobe won it by a landslide. Now, as far as #2 goes, surely Duncan gets the nod here, but only because Shaq started a steady decline in 04 while Duncan did not lose his elite status until about 07 or 08.

Da Knicks
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
Clearly not. Duncan did not win as much nor did he achieve as much success or dominated the decade as much as Kobe did. Hence Kobe won it by a landslide. Now, as far as #2 goes, surely Duncan gets the nod here, but only because Shaq started a steady decline in 04 while Duncan did not lose his elite status until about 07 or 08.

Kobe won because of his fanboys, Tim dominated more than what Kobe did with less help. They both had some help from the refs however, lakers vs kings and spurs vs suns.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
Im a huge believer in PEAK over Longevity and Im a huge fan of Shaq but why exactly is everyone convinced he should be picked after Duncan? Usually in the All-Time rankings people ignore peak play and favor longevity but in a discussion about a singular decade, no one cares if Shaq was done as a star after 05? Thats 5 years of meh play, wouldnt you rather have Dirk for the full decade or KG?

PS for the record I would vote Shaq at 3, it just seems odd that all of a sudden people care about PEAK.

I agree that Shaq's peak in the early 2000s is actually more impressive than Duncan's in the mid 2000s, but with Duncan, I think you get peak AND longevity vs. Shaq's five really great years and five really mediocre ones.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 02:25 PM
Clearly not. Duncan did not win as much nor did he achieve as much success or dominated the decade as much as Kobe did. Hence Kobe won it by a landslide. Now, as far as #2 goes, surely Duncan gets the nod here, but only because Shaq started a steady decline in 04 while Duncan did not lose his elite status until about 07 or 08.

I'm not going to get into this with the Kobe homers again, but Kobe winning more rings was not a result of his play, but because he played with Shaq. Make Kobe the No. 1 option on those early 2000s teams and give the Lakers an average starting center and they wouldn't have gotten past the second round of the playoffs. Duncan was a No. 1 on three championship teams in the 2000s, while Kobe was a No. 2 on three of his five (arguably four if you think Gasol was more important in 2010). Also, Kobe's statistical peak is pretty weak compared with Duncan's and Duncan has more MVPs and Finals MVPs.

Duncan > Kobe. Period.

beliges
10-10-2011, 03:07 PM
I'm not going to get into this with the Kobe homers again, but Kobe winning more rings was not a result of his play, but because he played with Shaq. Make Kobe the No. 1 option on those early 2000s teams and give the Lakers an average starting center and they wouldn't have gotten past the second round of the playoffs. Duncan was a No. 1 on three championship teams in the 2000s, while Kobe was a No. 2 on three of his five (arguably four if you think Gasol was more important in 2010). Also, Kobe's statistical peak is pretty weak compared with Duncan's and Duncan has more MVPs and Finals MVPs.

Duncan > Kobe. Period.

Kobe homer? Thats funny, even though everything including success, numbers, head to head matchups, a6ccolades and everything else puts Kobe ahead of Duncan for the decade, im a homer? Ya, a big reason why Kobe won 3 rings early on in the decade is because of Shaq. Just like the main reason Duncan won 3 rings in the decade is because of Parker, Ginobili and his other teammates. Kobe's statistical peak in 04 and 06 are better than Duncan had. Kobe dominated Duncan in head to head matchups in the Finals. From 00-10 Kobe won 5 titles and went to the Finals 7 times. Duncan won 3 titles and went to the Finals 3 times. Kobe dominated the league from 01 until the remainder of the decade. Duncan was dominant until about 07. From 07-10 he was no longer the best player at his own position. Using your own logic, Duncan was not a #1 for 3 titles as for one of those 3 titles he did not win the Finals MVP. You can call me a homer all you want but at the end of the day, Kobe was more dominant in teh playoffs as is evidenced by the numbers, he was more clutch, he was more dominant, he was more successful and most importantly, he won more than Duncan ever did. What a homer huh? And not your opinion nor anyone else's opinion will ever change that. Its no surprise Kobe won this poll in a landslide and when there was an official poll of this exact question posted to a national audience on ESPN, Kobe once again won the poll by a landslide. It seems that the general consensus of people disagree with you and agree with me. You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is one that is not generally accepted and is refuted by numbers and what actually happened during the decade.

Kobe > Duncan period.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Kobe homer? Thats funny, even though everything including success, numbers, head to head matchups, a6ccolades and everything else puts Kobe ahead of Duncan for the decade, im a homer? Ya, a big reason why Kobe won 3 rings early on in the decade is because of Shaq. Just like the main reason Duncan won 3 rings in the decade is because of Parker, Ginobili and his other teammates. Kobe's statistical peak in 04 and 06 are better than Duncan had. Kobe dominated Duncan in head to head matchups in the Finals. From 00-10 Kobe won 5 titles and went to the Finals 7 times. Duncan won 3 titles and went to the Finals 3 times. Kobe dominated the league from 01 until the remainder of the decade. Duncan was dominant until about 07. From 07-10 he was no longer the best player at his own position. Using your own logic, Duncan was not a #1 for 3 titles as for one of those 3 titles he did not win the Finals MVP. You can call me a homer all you want but at the end of the day, Kobe was more dominant in teh playoffs as is evidenced by the numbers, he was more clutch, he was more dominant, he was more successful and most importantly, he won more than Duncan ever did. What a homer huh? And not your opinion nor anyone else's opinion will ever change that. Its no surprise Kobe won this poll in a landslide and when there was an official poll of this exact question posted to a national audience on ESPN, Kobe once again won the poll by a landslide. It seems that the general consensus of people disagree with you and agree with me. You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is one that is not generally accepted and is refuted by numbers and what actually happened during the decade.

Kobe > Duncan period.
There is so much wrong with this post (grammatical errors aside), that I just don't have the time or patience to address it all. Just know that you are so very wrong that it physically hurts my brain to read all of this. It would be like reading historical textbooks where every other fact was blatantly inaccurate.

beliges
10-10-2011, 03:22 PM
There is so much wrong with this post (grammatical errors aside), that I just don't have the time or patience to address it all. Just know that you are so very wrong that it physically hurts my brain to read all of this. It would be like reading historical textbooks where every other fact was blatantly inaccurate.

Uh huh? Sure. I dont see any historical inaccuracy in what I posted up there. But I cant blame you for not responding. Again, keep in mind while you have your opinion, that the general consensus of all NBA personell and NBA fans have given Kobe the nod as the greatest player of the decade and did so by a landslide vote, just like this forum did. So, long story short, your opnion is that of the minority and mine is one that is generally accepted among a majority of people. But like everyone here, you are entitled to whatever opinion you like, no matter how much that opinion is refuted by facts and achievements.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 04:56 PM
Uh huh? Sure. I dont see any historical inaccuracy in what I posted up there. But I cant blame you for not responding. Again, keep in mind while you have your opinion, that the general consensus of all NBA personell and NBA fans have given Kobe the nod as the greatest player of the decade and did so by a landslide vote, just like this forum did. So, long story short, your opnion is that of the minority and mine is one that is generally accepted among a majority of people. But like everyone here, you are entitled to whatever opinion you like, no matter how much that opinion is refuted by facts and achievements.

A vote by fans means absolutely nothing to me. Basketball analysts will tell you that Tim Duncan was the better player over the decade, as do statistics. Duncan's numbers over that time are significantly better and he was one of the three or four most dominant defensive bigs of the decade (I'd put him in the same category as Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard). His impact on the defensive end is so much greater than Kobe's it's ridiculous.

And to say Kobe is "more clutch," had "more success" in the postseason and "beat Duncan" in the Finals head to head is just wrong. Duncan has a higher career PER, TS%, WS/48... you name it, and Duncan has higher numbers in the regular season AND the playoffs. Also, Duncan clearly never faced Kobe in the Finals and only faced him once in the conference finals. And since they play different positions, to say Kobe beat him head to head is ridiculous. Duncan didn't guard Kobe or vice versa. Also, you argued that Duncan wasn't the best player on that last championship team and that's just ****ing stupid. Look at his numbers from the 06-07 season and Duncan was CLEARLY the best player on that team. They gave Parker the Finals MVP because he had one good series. Hell, Gasol was clearly the better player in the 2010 postseason, but they gave the award to Kobe anyway.

Bottom line... Your argument is flawed and you have no idea what you're talking about. And 10 years from now when historians look back on the decade, Duncan will be seen as the better player (as he already is by anyone who actually knows basketball).

kArSoN RyDaH
10-10-2011, 05:50 PM
What's Shaq's record against Duncan? Who won more playoff series between the two? Uhm, give me Shaq.

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 06:55 PM
Hmm... I just had an idea, let me list who was the best player year by year in the 00's.
(Between Shaq/Duncan/Kobe)

00 - Shaq
01 - Shaq
02 - Shaq
03 - Dunkin
04 - Shaq
05 - Shaq
06 - Kobe (Duncan better in PS)
07 - Kobe (Duncan better in PS)
08 - Kobe
09 - Kobe

(PS = Post Season/Playoffs)

Shaq - 5
Duncan - 1
Kobe - 4

or (if you give Duncan 06/07)

Shaq - 5
Duncan - 3
Kobe - 2

Duncan however was better then Kobe (imo) in 00,01,02,04,05

So overall my rankings remain the same.

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe

Bruno
10-10-2011, 07:07 PM
All posters who have not been banned by a moderator or administrator are eligible to participate in this thread. Keep the discussion on basketball.

mightybosstone
10-10-2011, 07:09 PM
Hmm... I just had an idea, let me list who was the best player year by year in the 00's.
(Between Shaq/Duncan/Kobe)

00 - Shaq
01 - Shaq
02 - Shaq
03 - Dunkin
04 - Shaq
05 - Shaq
06 - Kobe (Duncan better in PS)
07 - Kobe (Duncan better in PS)
08 - Kobe
09 - Kobe

Shaq - 5
Duncan - 1
Kobe - 4

or (if you give Duncan 06/07)

Shaq - 5
Duncan - 3
Kobe - 2

Duncan however was better then Kobe (imo) in 00,01,02,04,05

So overall my rankings remain the same.

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
00 - Shaq
01 - Shaq
02 - Shaq (although Duncan won the MVP)
03 - Duncan
04 - Duncan
05 - Duncan
06 - Kobe (although Shaq won the title)
07 - Duncan
08 - Kobe
09 - Kobe

01-02 and 05-06 were tough, but I feel pretty good about the other selections. Bottom line, I think your choices were crap, and if you were going off of your choices, why did you take Kobe third when you have him as the best player four of those years?

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 07:35 PM
I took Kobe third because Duncan was better then Kobe more years then Kobe was better then him.

Duncan was > Kobe in 00,01,02,03,04,05 and has argument for 06 and 07 based on his playoff performances.

Kobe was > Duncan in 06,07,08,09 but was inferior to Duncan in the Post Season in 06,07.

So even if I give Kobe for 06 and 07 and add that to 08,09 thats still only 4 Years he was better then Duncan where as Duncan was better from 00-05 which is 6 Years.

BTW Shaq was clearly better then Duncan in 04
Shaq led his team to the Finals in 04 and significantly outplayed Duncan in the playoffs when they went H2H.

Shaq was much better then Duncan in the 05 RS and damn near won MVP, Duncan was better in the 05 PS but not by an enormous margin (Shaq beasted on Detroit) but still I can see a fair argument for Duncan being the better player in 05.

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 08:03 PM
Kobe was better than Duncan in 2001, 2004, 2006-2010

PinnacleFlash
10-10-2011, 08:08 PM
Kobe was better than Duncan in 2001, 2004, 2006-2010

:facepalm:

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 08:12 PM
:facepalm:

:confused:

2001
Playoffs - 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG
2001 WCF vs Duncan's Spurs - 33.3 PPG, 7RPG, 7 APG

2004
kind of hard one, but I take Kobe

2006-2010
no explanation needed

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 08:39 PM
Kobe was great in 01 but that year was the perfect situation for him.
Shaq had just had arguably the MDSeason ever and Kobe was having his first real season as a star. Thus teams werent really paying much attention to Kobe yet and were mainly focused on slowing down Shaq.

TD and DRob were busy double teaming Shaq downlow and Kobe was working 1 on 1 against undersized PG Antonio David... not surprising he ruined the Spurs that year.

TD still had slightly better production that year in the playoffs and was far more impactful on the defensive end.
No way Kobe could have put up those stats in that PS or against the Spurs if he was the #1 option and focus of the opposing teams D like Duncan and Shaq were that year.

PinnacleFlash
10-10-2011, 08:47 PM
Kobe should no longer be discussed in this thread, he is not on here.

Go away.

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 08:48 PM
Kobe was great in 01 but that year was the perfect situation for him.
Shaq had just had arguably the MDSeason ever and Kobe was having his first real season as a star. Thus teams werent really paying much attention to Kobe yet and were mainly focused on slowing down Shaq.

TD and DRob were busy double teaming Shaq downlow and Kobe was working 1 on 1 against undersized PG Antonio David... not surprising he ruined the Spurs that year.

TD still had slightly better production that year in the playoffs and was far more impactful on the defensive end.
No way Kobe could have put up those stats in that PS or against the Spurs if he was the #1 option and focus of the opposing teams D like Duncan and Shaq were that year.

your agenda is obvious
and false

what has this kobe guy done without shaq, hmm...
2 championships
3 finals
30/6/6
30/5/6
29/6/6 playoff averages

so as the #1 man, kobe cant do it :laugh2:

naps
10-10-2011, 08:57 PM
Why is Kobe being discussed here? I thought he was gone as the #1. Am I missing something here? It has to be either Shaq or Duncan. I picked Shaq but won't be upset if Duncan is being picked. Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe for top 3 is a lock in any order. I am waiting for #4 spot even though I am pretty sure the player deserves the #4 spot won't get it because of general hate.

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 08:59 PM
Its just the truth.. rules were alot different back then anyway before all the hand checking wimp rules went into effect making it impossible to defend perimeter players.

by 02 teams had noticed Kobe and actually started defending him and the Spurs got Bowen and look what happened to Kobe.
His efficiency, rebounding and assists all plummeted and he never matched those levels again in the Hand Check Era. It is in large part thanks to teams focusing on Shaq that Kobe went off that year.

Look at how Kobe performed in G1 of the Finals that year.. just dissapeared.

I personally think Kobe was amazing in the 01 playoffs but to ignore the fact that he got to work on single coverage 99% of the time thanks to Shaq and sometimes against really terrible defenders like AD is a bit naive. It is still arguably his best Post-Season of his Career with only his 09 being a fair competitor.

Corey
10-10-2011, 09:17 PM
Actually I do. I have every right to exclude a guy who, can't think for himself, steals other people's insights from different sites, trolls and personally attack others including myself on another site that I post in, so yeah I have every right to do whatever I want. Deal with it.

Actually, guess what: You dont. It's a public forum. You can't exclude someone just because you dont like what they have to say.

Bruno
10-10-2011, 09:31 PM
Obviously between Shaq and Duncan here.

Bryant is off the board, why are arguments being made for or against him?

Lakersfan2483
10-10-2011, 09:33 PM
Tim Duncan

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 09:33 PM
Its just the truth.. rules were alot different back then anyway before all the hand checking wimp rules went into effect making it impossible to defend perimeter players.

by 02 teams had noticed Kobe and actually started defending him and the Spurs got Bowen and look what happened to Kobe.
His efficiency, rebounding and assists all plummeted and he never matched those levels again in the Hand Check Era. It is mainly thanks to teams focusing on Shaq that Kobe went off that year.

Look at how Kobe performed in G1 of the Finals that year.. just dissapeared.

Kobe = 5 Rings, 1FMVP.

I personally think Kobe was amazing in the 01 playoffs but to ignore the fact that he got to work on single coverage 99% of the time thanks to Shaq and sometimes against really terrible defenders like AD is a bit naive. It is still arguably his best Post-Season of his Career with only his 09 being a fair competitor.

2002-03 Season: 30.0 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 5.9 APG
2003 playoffs: 32.1 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 5.2 APG

2002 vs the Spurs
game 3 - 5/5 FG in the 4th quarter, 11 points
game 4 - outscored the SPurs by himself in the 4th quarter + gamewinner

and Kobe has 2 Finals MVPs

and disapeared in the finals?
Kobe shot 62.3 TS% in the 2002 Finals, and had36/6/4 in game 3 and hit the game sealing basket

you fail again

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 09:39 PM
Eh, I think you fail.

Kobe was great in the 03 RS... PS not to much.
His rebounding/Assists and efficiency (43%FG - 53ts) were all far worse compared to his 01 season and a big reason the Spurs got past LA was because Kobe wasnt playing well and averaged close to 4 turn overs a game over the playoffs.

In the Final game of the series (The Clincher) Kobe went for 20/6 with 7 Turnovers in G6 Shaq went for 31/10/3/3.

And he still only had one Title Run where he led his team in Production/WShares (09) and Gasol was clearly better in the 2010 Finals so yes he only deserves 1FMVP.

03 was actually a good year for him but it doesn't hold a Candle to his 01 PS.

Kobe wasn't even the best SG in the playoffs in 03, that would be TMac.

TMac 03 Playoffs.
31.7 / 6.7 / 4.7 - 57%TS

PinnacleFlash
10-10-2011, 09:41 PM
Actually, guess what: You dont. It's a public forum. You can't exclude someone just because you dont like what they have to say.

Doing that right now.

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 11:07 PM
Eh, I think you fail.

Kobe was great in the 03 RS... PS not to much.
His rebounding/Assists and efficiency (43%FG - 53ts) were all far worse compared to his 01 season and a big reason the Spurs got past LA was because Kobe wasnt playing well and averaged close to 4 turn overs a game over the playoffs.

In the Final game of the series (The Clincher) Kobe went for 20/6 with 7 Turnovers in G6 Shaq went for 31/10/3/3.

And he still only had one Title Run where he led his team in Production/WShares (09) and Gasol was clearly better in the 2010 Finals so yes he only deserves 1FMVP.

03 was actually a good year for him but it doesn't hold a Candle to his 01 PS.

and just in the previous game (game 5)
Kobe had 36/7/6
Shaq had 20/12 with 5 TO

and in game 4 kobe had 35/7/3

and in game 3
Kobe had 39/4/4
Shaq had 21/16/8

and Kobe averaged 10 more ppg than gasol in the Finals lol
and averaged 8 rpg and grabbed 15 of them in gm 7

once again your agenda fails

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 11:17 PM
Kobe averaged 10 more PPG but on far worse efficiency, Gasol also outrebounded him played much better defense and was the best play maker in the series.

Kobe padded his stats in G3 by taking an enormous amount of shots and shooting a very bad % (both him and Gasol were bad that game/ Kobe slightly better) and in G5 where he was by far the best player on the court but he also played very poor defense and let Rondo/Pierce go off for huge games and didn't do a good job running the Triangle which led to stagnation of the LA offense.

Then you take into Account Gasol was better in the Final two games of the series and came up biggest in the Clutch moments and its obvious who was better.

In reality the games where they were contending in that series Gasol/Kobe were producing a similar amount of points on offense but Gasol was doing it far more effeciently and was averaging more Assists/Rebounds and was far better defensively + his offensive rebounding was probably the key to that entire series + his Clutch play.

Gasol = 2010 FMVP no questions asked.


Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 11:25 PM
2010 Finals

Kobe
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
Steals per game: 2.1
PER: 26.3

Gasol
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Assists per game: 3.7
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5




2010 Finals
On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

..

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 11:30 PM
lol your just cherry picking stats that make Kobe look better while ignoring the stats and context of games that make him look much worse.

Kobe scored far more points on the road but was only significantly better then Gasol in a single road game (G5).

In the rest of the games (which coincidentally are the games the Lakers Won) Gasol far outplayed Kobe and produced better on both ends of the floor.


Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

Kobe outplays Gasol (G3,G4,G5) LA Wins 1/3
Gasol outplays Kobe (G1,G2,G6,G7) LA Wins 3/4

Testaverde16
10-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Duncan here

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 11:48 PM
lol your just cherry picking stats that make Kobe look better while ignoring the stats and context of games that make him look much worse.

Kobe scored far more points on the road but was only significantly better then Gasol in a single road game (G5).

In the rest of the games (which coincidentally are the games the Lakers Won) Gasol far outplayed Kobe and produced better on both ends of the floor.



Kobe outplays Gasol (G3,G4,G5) LA Wins 1/3
Gasol outplays Kobe (G1,G2,G6,G7) LA Wins 3/4

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

Andrew32
10-10-2011, 11:49 PM
K Templar, time to end this argument. I have put together all of my opinions.

Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

Kobe outplays Gasol (G3,G4,G5) LA Wins 1/3
Gasol outplays Kobe (G1,G2,G6,G7) LA Wins 3/4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even if you just look at their full series averages its basically a wash between the two.

Kobe scores more points but he does so on far worse efficiency.
Gasol outrebounds Kobe and is a far better playmaker over the course of the series (especially in the games they won)
Then you take into account that Gasols offensive rebounding and Clutch play in G7 are probably the two main reason they won the series and you can easily make a case for Gasol being FMVP.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you go further then just looking at the box scores and actually look at the games in context you'll see that Gasol was far more valuable over the course of the series.

- Gasol outplayed Kobe in G1. (They win that game)

- Gasol was amazing in G2 but Kobe's terrible game kept them from winning. (They lose that game)

@ Kobe "slightly" outplays Gasol in Game 3 and outscores him but does so taking an absurd amount of shots and shooting a terrible %.
(They win... somehow, Celtics play even worse)

@ Game 4, Kobe outscores Gasol again and may have the slightly better game line but Gasol severely outplays Garnett and is far more impactful defensively in the game I'd say its a wash.
(They lose that game)

@ G5 is the only game where he (Kobe) was by far the best player on the court but he also played very poor defense and let Rondo/Pierce go off for huge games and didn't do a good job running the Triangle which led to stagnation of the LA offense. (They lose that game)

- Then you have G6 where Gasol damn near drops a triple-double and outplays Kobe (They win that game)

- Then we move on to G7 where Gasol significantly out-produces and outplays Kobe, is far more efficient offensively, grabs 18 rebounds
(9 offensive) and is Mr. Clutch in the final 3 minutes scoring 8 points grabbing 3 boards had a huge block on pierce and an assist to Kobe for his only 2 points in the final 3 minutes. (They win that game)

@@@---Yes Gasol deserved Finals MVP---@@@

knightstemplar
10-10-2011, 11:58 PM
^
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/lol/grand/kobe_bryan_lol_gif.gif

Bishnoff
10-11-2011, 12:34 AM
Duncan.

PinnacleFlash
10-11-2011, 07:23 PM
You know your thread is going to get killed when Andrew32 posts in it. Whatever.

amos1er
10-11-2011, 07:37 PM
K Templar, time to end this argument. I have put together all of my opinions.

Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

Kobe outplays Gasol (G3,G4,G5) LA Wins 1/3
Gasol outplays Kobe (G1,G2,G6,G7) LA Wins 3/4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even if you just look at their full series averages its basically a wash between the two.

Kobe scores more points but he does so on far worse efficiency.
Gasol outrebounds Kobe and is a far better playmaker over the course of the series (especially in the games they won)
Then you take into account that Gasols offensive rebounding and Clutch play in G7 are probably the two main reason they won the series and you can easily make a case for Gasol being FMVP.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you go further then just looking at the box scores and actually look at the games in context you'll see that Gasol was far more valuable over the course of the series.

- Gasol outplayed Kobe in G1. (They win that game)

- Gasol was amazing in G2 but Kobe's terrible game kept them from winning. (They lose that game)

@ Kobe "slightly" outplays Gasol in Game 3 and outscores him but does so taking an absurd amount of shots and shooting a terrible %.
(They win... somehow, Celtics play even worse)

@ Game 4, Kobe outscores Gasol again and may have the slightly better game line but Gasol severely outplays Garnett and is far more impactful defensively in the game I'd say its a wash.
(They lose that game)

@ G5 is the only game where he (Kobe) was by far the best player on the court but he also played very poor defense and let Rondo/Pierce go off for huge games and didn't do a good job running the Triangle which led to stagnation of the LA offense. (They lose that game)

- Then you have G6 where Gasol damn near drops a triple-double and outplays Kobe (They win that game)

- Then we move on to G7 where Gasol significantly out-produces and outplays Kobe, is far more efficient offensively, grabs 18 rebounds
(9 offensive) and is Mr. Clutch in the final 3 minutes scoring 8 points grabbing 3 boards had a huge block on pierce and an assist to Kobe for his only 2 points in the final 3 minutes. (They win that game)

@@@---Yes Gasol deserved Finals MVP---@@@


You have a great analysis and it is hard to argue against the points you are making.

That said, I believe that Kobe's finals MVP that year it more a result of his body of work throughout his career and that season. Kobe was what made that team go and is the best player on the Lakers.

Kobe easily would have won it in 08 if Gasol didn't screw it up so bad, so that kind of makes it a wash too.

Gasol came through in the 10 finals and does make a damn good case for finals MVP, but alas it is Kobe's team and he was playing with a busted knee. I doubt that Gasol would have been as effective as Kobe with the same injury.

Kobe manned up and came through for the Laker franchise despite an injury that no other player in todays NBA could have played through. Fact is the Lakers don't win it all without Kobe and Kobe does deserve that finals MVP. Seriously, they should have given them both finals MVP's that year because Gasol did come through for us big time.

juno10
10-11-2011, 07:46 PM
^you make it sound like kobe was some kind of superhero fighting through all obstacles

Kobe manned up and came through for the Laker franchise despite an injury that no other player in todays NBA could have played through.

if you believe that than your a huge kobe homer.

amos1er
10-11-2011, 07:49 PM
^you make it sound like kobe was some kind of superhero fighting through all obstacles


if you believe that than your a huge kobe homer.

The statement I made was a fact, not a homerism, I don't see any players in todays NBA playing without cartilage in their knees. I defy you to name one example.

juno10
10-11-2011, 07:53 PM
without cartillage? absolutely no cartillage at all in his knee? are you sure your not over exaggerating for your boy.

amos1er
10-11-2011, 08:48 PM
without cartillage? absolutely no cartillage at all in his knee? are you sure your not over exaggerating for your boy.

I'm just going off reports I heard. I'm not a doctor, nor did I look at kobe's knee under a microscope.

Lets see how well Lebron can step up after a major injury....few can, only the greats do. Lebron couldn't even step up in the finals without an injury thats all I know. :rolleyes:

juno10
10-11-2011, 08:59 PM
yah just read an article where kobe himself said he had some cartilage left in his knee from 2011

juno10
10-11-2011, 09:01 PM
i dont know why you're comparing kobe to bron, bron has like 50 pounds on him which would be more painful on brons knees than kobes, doesn't take skill to play through injury.

amos1er
10-11-2011, 11:09 PM
i dont know why you're comparing kobe to bron, bron has like 50 pounds on him which would be more painful on brons knees than kobes, doesn't take skill to play through injury.

Kobe 5 rings

Lebron 0 rings

That's the only argument I need. ;)

PinnacleFlash
10-12-2011, 02:13 AM
When do you guys think I should move to the next one?

beliges
10-12-2011, 02:16 AM
i dont know why you're comparing kobe to bron, bron has like 50 pounds on him which would be more painful on brons knees than kobes, doesn't take skill to play through injury.

All I know is Lebron took a few games off for breaking his pinky finger on his off hand a few years back. Remember that?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-12-2011, 04:53 AM
When do you guys think I should move to the next one?

never

juno10
10-12-2011, 08:30 AM
All I know is Lebron took a few games off for breaking his pinky finger on his off hand a few years back. Remember that?

i don't, who cares though im not gonna protect bron for everything.


Kobe 5 rings

Lebron 0 rings

That's the only argument I need. ;)

mature