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View Full Version : Most Fear hitter ? Alex Rodriguez vs. Manny Ramirez



metsfan4ever
10-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Put the Roids aside cause both did it,

better hitter and pitchers are scared to pitch at, ( threw out their careers)

Bombtista
10-09-2011, 11:18 AM
Alex Rodriguez

sox04rR
10-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Manny. I loved watching him in a Boston uni everynight. He was the most feared hitter in the league also because he had ortiz hitting in front of him

DodgerBlue8188
10-09-2011, 11:32 AM
I think Manny. Look at what he's done in the post seasons compared to A Rod.

Jilly Bohnson
10-09-2011, 11:43 AM
While A-rod was a better player, Manny was pretty clearly a better hitter.

yankswin27
10-09-2011, 11:54 AM
Manny. A-Rod can't come through in key spots.

sep11ie
10-09-2011, 11:59 AM
Work on your grammar, then worry about baiting...

daresdrama
10-09-2011, 12:00 PM
really like who cares they both suck

harlequin018
10-09-2011, 12:00 PM
While A-rod was a better player, Manny was pretty clearly a better hitter.

Thats a pretty uneducated statement right there. Both guys are HoF hitters and their stats are pretty similar. ARoid, oops ARod, hits for more power and plays with much better speed. I'll say that Manny had some pretty solid seasons in terms of batting average. Their career average lines (162 game average based on career stats) are near identical:

109 / 39 / 129 .312 / .411 - Manny
123 / 42 / 128 .302 / .386 - ARod

With the only significant difference is ARod steals more bases. I have to give the overall edge slightly to ARod because he played on some pretty terrible Ranger and Mariner teams with zero protection in the lineup. Manny had Ortiz and Nomar, but either way its very very close. An opposing pitcher is screwed either way.

oak2455
10-09-2011, 12:02 PM
Work on your grammar, then worry about baiting...

:laugh::nod: welcome to PSD:D

yankeefan54
10-09-2011, 12:37 PM
The better player Is AROD but as a clutch hitter Its manny and not close either. Both were obviosly feared and arod as a ranger may have been more feared but as a yankee Arod has choked more than he has come through.

BTW oak2455 who is that in your sig? Damm

bagwell368
10-09-2011, 08:14 PM
Manny was a more productive hitter per plate appearance. Same is true post season. Arod's decline is just settling in, wait a few years, the differences will get wider.

However with positional scarcity for AROD and poor fielding and base running on Manny's part, plus a longer career for AROD, he wins easily on that front and overall.

bagwell368
10-09-2011, 08:30 PM
Thats a pretty uneducated statement right there. Both guys are HoF hitters and their stats are pretty similar. ARoid, oops ARod, hits for more power and plays with much better speed. I'll say that Manny had some pretty solid seasons in terms of batting average. Their career average lines (162 game average based on career stats) are near identical:

109 / 39 / 129 .312 / .411 - Manny
123 / 42 / 128 .302 / .386 - ARod

With the only significant difference is ARod steals more bases. I have to give the overall edge slightly to ARod because he played on some pretty terrible Ranger and Mariner teams with zero protection in the lineup. Manny had Ortiz and Nomar, but either way its very very close. An opposing pitcher is screwed either way.

What he said is dead on correct. Why are you looking at BA? Let's factor out the ball park, and the league biases. BR Neutralized batting has:

AROD's slash at: .293/.377/.551
MRam slash at: .301/.398/.565

The BA & SLG difference is fairly minimal, but the OBP is pretty serious in Manny's favor.

But RC/G is where Manny really shows his OBP advantage 8.9 to 8.1.

OPS+ 154 > 144 in favor of Manny, and when AROD retires he's going to be under 142, maybe even 140.

The thread is about hitting, not base running and fielding, so Manny is better per plate appearance, quite clearly.

hugepatsfan
10-09-2011, 08:43 PM
Manny was the better hitter. He was the more feared hitter. A-Rod might have had more HR power in his prime, but overall as a hitter Manny was clearly better.

A-Rod was a great defender at SS (a premium position) and a plus baserunner. Manny sucked in LF and didn't run well. So overall as players, A-Rod is better. But to answer the OP's question (a question in which baserunning and defense hold no relevance) - Manny, by a fair margin as well.

NCBoSoxfan21
10-10-2011, 11:12 AM
Manny was way more feared. Especially when it counted he would come through for the Sox. Arod has had a slew of playoff appearances and chokes 9/10 times.

todu82
10-10-2011, 12:01 PM
Alex Rodriguez. At one time he was perhaps the best hitter in the game.

hugepatsfan
10-10-2011, 01:55 PM
Manny was way more feared. Especially when it counted he would come through for the Sox. Arod has had a slew of playoff appearances and chokes 9/10 times.

277/386/498

That's A-Rod's career slash line in the postseason. A-Rod's postseason struggles are way overstated. The dude was an absolute monster for the playoffs when he was in SEA. And in NY he's been pretty good too. He struggled mightily in 05 and 06, as well as his last 2 series, but other than that he's been solid/great.

F*(&"Next Year"
10-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Just some fodder:
Manny: In 9774 PA, he was intentionally walked 214 times.
ARod: In 10634 PA, he was intentionally walked 88 times.

Obviously there's more to the story than those numbers, yet they are quite telling at the same time.

"Ace"ves
10-10-2011, 03:44 PM
Just some fodder:
Manny: In 9774 PA, he was intentionally walked 214 times.
ARod: In 10634 PA, he was intentionally walked 88 times.

Obviously there's more to the story than those numbers, yet they are quite telling at the same time.

I think Manny is the better hitter, but your logic is not the best determiner.

A-rod is a better all around hitter due to his ability beat out ground balls with speed, steal bases, run the bases. But people don't fear ground balls or stolen bases (unless you are reyes, bourn, etc).

yankeefan54
10-10-2011, 06:40 PM
Arod was good with the yankees vs the twins in 04 and in 2009 overall. Im a huge arod supporter but arod as a yankee has been dreadful overall besides 2009 in which has really saved his *** in NY.

harlequin018
10-12-2011, 12:21 PM
What he said is dead on correct. Why are you looking at BA? Let's factor out the ball park, and the league biases. BR Neutralized batting has:

AROD's slash at: .293/.377/.551
MRam slash at: .301/.398/.565

The BA & SLG difference is fairly minimal, but the OBP is pretty serious in Manny's favor.

But RC/G is where Manny really shows his OBP advantage 8.9 to 8.1.

OPS+ 154 > 144 in favor of Manny, and when AROD retires he's going to be under 142, maybe even 140.

The thread is about hitting, not base running and fielding, so Manny is better per plate appearance, quite clearly.

You realize that ARod already has better career numbers than Manny? Allowing his overall averages to drop because ARod is clearly in the twilight of his career denies the point of the entire post as we're talking about players in their prime.

Manny's prime was about 8 seasons, his last three in Cleveland and the first five in Boston. ARod hit 45 HRs a year for 10 years, all while playing for Seattle, Texas and a few seasons for the Yanks. The Ranger and Mariner teams had noone to provide him protection and pitchers were afforded the opportunity to pitch around him. ARod's a free swinger, especially in his younger days, so OBP is not a particular strength of his. But there's no doubt that his power potential combined with his speed that could stretch singles into doubles changed the attitude pitchers took to attack him. Isn't that what fear and intimidation is? Manny is a Hall of Famer to me, but ARod is the greatest hitting shortstop of all time. There's a pretty serious distinction there.

Pinstripe pride
10-12-2011, 02:15 PM
arod

bagwell368
10-13-2011, 10:24 PM
277/386/498

That's A-Rod's career slash line in the postseason.

Yes, that's: -.025/.000/-.069 below his regular season performance....


A-Rod's postseason struggles are way overstated. The dude was an absolute monster for the playoffs when he was in SEA. And in NY he's been pretty good too. He struggled mightily in 05 and 06, as well as his last 2 series, but other than that he's been solid/great.

No so sorry, AROD's struggles in the post season is not over stated.

Tossing aside his two 1 PA's Series (1995 ALDS, ALCS) he has 6 poor playoff series:

2005 ALDS .133 .435 .200
2000 ALDS .308 .308 .308
2010 ALCS .190 .320 .286
2010 ALDS .273 .308 .273
2011 ALDS .111 .261 .111
2006 ALDS .071 .133 .071

Three meh Series (given his salary/expectations - and regular season averages)

Five great Series.

Manny's playoff slash vs season is a tad better then AROD's: -.027/-.017/-.041, and since his regular season slash is superior to AROD's, on average, he was better - in the playoffs and the regular season.

Manny has six poor Series, six meh, and 12 great Series, a better ratio then AROD's groupings....

If we scale both guys playoff PA's to 700, we have:

MR: HR: 41 RBI: 111
AR: HR: 30 RBI: 96

Don't forget this is hitting comparison only. Re: base running, fielding (Manny had a good arm), positional scarcity, and longevity, AROD is way ahead, putting him into the top dozen players of all time. Manny is 6-10 slots below. They both had personality and substance issues - Manny's on balance worse. I would take AROD over Manny overall. But the stick alone? Manny by a clear margin.

bagwell368
10-13-2011, 11:03 PM
You realize that ARod already has better career numbers than Manny? Allowing his overall averages to drop because ARod is clearly in the twilight of his career denies the point of the entire post as we're talking about players in their prime.

Manny beats AROD - period. As AROD plays deeper into his decline his rate numbers will make that even more true.

What does HR's have to do with hitting judgements? HR's are a sub set of hitting, not hitting itself. Try OPS+

MR - AR

186 176
184 173
173 162
165 160
165 160
161 158
160 150
153 147
153 138
152 136
147 134
146 134
146 131
144 123

Best 14 years of each head to head hierarchically. Manny wins each year. So much for AROD's peak.

162 game averages:

AR: .302/.386/.567 2B: 33 3B: 2 HR: 42 RBI: 128 BB: 79 K: 129
MR: .312/.411/.585 2B: 38 3B: 1 HR: 38 RBI: 129 BB: 94 K: 128

So AROD hit 1 more 3B and 4 more HR a year, and that makes him better then a guy who had more of everything else?


But there's no doubt that his power potential combined with his speed that could stretch singles into doubles changed the attitude pitchers took to attack him. Isn't that what fear and intimidation is? Manny is a Hall of Famer to me, but ARod is the greatest hitting shortstop of all time. There's a pretty serious distinction there.

AROD is not the best hitting SS of all time. Honus Wagner wipes the floor with him.

Wagner #1's:


batting titles: 8
OBP%: 4
SLG: 6
OPS: 8
TB: 6
2B: 7
3B: 3
RBI: 5
SB: 5
offensive WAR by year: 10
HR top 10: 11

AROD might potentially be the #1 3B of all time, but given his likely decline, he'll have Schmidt in totals, not rates. And Schmidt was a far better fielder, and dominated his league/era much more then AROD did his.

bagwell368
10-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Alex Rodriguez. At one time he was perhaps the best hitter in the game.

Really?

Bonds and then Pujols have ALWAYS been better then AROD between the two of them.

Look at the two posts above this, Manny's prime beats AROD, Manny's playoff performances beat AROD too.

Nymfan87
10-13-2011, 11:39 PM
If I had to choose one to DH for me I'd pick Manny. I think he's probably the 3rd best hitter of the past decade behind Bonds and Pujols.

Actually, funny enough I just checked the wRC+ leaderboards for the 2000's and Manny came up 3rd behind Bonds and Pujols. Damn I'm good. But A-Rod was a close 4th at +156 to Manny's +158.

hugepatsfan
10-16-2011, 01:19 AM
Yes, that's: -.025/.000/-.069 below his regular season performance....



No so sorry, AROD's struggles in the post season is not over stated.

Tossing aside his two 1 PA's Series (1995 ALDS, ALCS) he has 6 poor playoff series:

2005 ALDS .133 .435 .200
2000 ALDS .308 .308 .308
2010 ALCS .190 .320 .286
2010 ALDS .273 .308 .273
2011 ALDS .111 .261 .111
2006 ALDS .071 .133 .071

Three meh Series (given his salary/expectations - and regular season averages)

Five great Series.

Manny's playoff slash vs season is a tad better then AROD's: -.027/-.017/-.041, and since his regular season slash is superior to AROD's, on average, he was better - in the playoffs and the regular season.

Manny has six poor Series, six meh, and 12 great Series, a better ratio then AROD's groupings....

If we scale both guys playoff PA's to 700, we have:

MR: HR: 41 RBI: 111
AR: HR: 30 RBI: 96

Don't forget this is hitting comparison only. Re: base running, fielding (Manny had a good arm), positional scarcity, and longevity, AROD is way ahead, putting him into the top dozen players of all time. Manny is 6-10 slots below. They both had personality and substance issues - Manny's on balance worse. I would take AROD over Manny overall. But the stick alone? Manny by a clear margin.

I wasn't comparing.

I just see so many people say "A-Rod sucks in the playoffs" but its not as true as many think. He hasn't sucked. He's had some good series and some great ones and some crappy one. It's the playoffs though, you're facing the best of the best.

Manny is obviously better though.

BradfordIsElite
10-21-2011, 03:49 PM
It's close but A-Rod gets the nod when it comes down to which one was feared more throughout their careers.

yankeefan54
10-21-2011, 09:26 PM
It's close but A-Rod gets the nod when it comes down to which one was feared more throughout their careers.

no manny has always been more feared atleast in the clutch i guess they were basically the same as in they were both great but really manny is so underatted in a werid way his numbers were always on par or better than arod except some of arods 50 hr years.

Gabbert4TheWin
10-22-2011, 09:35 PM
Manny was always more feared than A-rod

Brooklyn Mets
11-23-2011, 04:09 PM
Work on your grammar, then worry about baiting...

hahaha

Jeffy25
11-24-2011, 09:48 PM
Since we only have the information since 2002, we are somewhat limited, but we can answer this question from 02-11 at least

Manny - 02-11 - 49.7% thrown for strikes
A-Rod - 02-11 - 48-7% thrown for strikes

Not completely clear, both are close, but I would lean toward A-Rod probably put more fear into pitchers.

A-rod also swings at more pitches outside of the zone than Manny did, so that could account for that small difference (both are 1% though)