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View Full Version : Did wanting to be "the man" ruin some great teams?



ajnapoleon
10-09-2011, 04:21 AM
Kobe and shaquille Vince and Tracy garnett and Marbury zo and LJ?.... back then nobody wanted to share the spotlight now these guys do... Better or worse?

Wade>You
10-09-2011, 04:32 AM
Kobe and shaquille Vince and Tracy garnett and Marbury zo and LJ?.... back then nobody wanted to share the spotlight now these guys do... Better or worse?It's a crying shame what the game has become. :pity:

and yes, IMO, wanting to be man did ruin a lot of great teams. It's great to see today's generation of players have moved on and can put aside their differences/money/stats for winning.

asandhu23
10-09-2011, 04:37 AM
Rich get richer. Poor get poorer.

abe_froman
10-09-2011, 04:45 AM
vc/tracy and kg/steph duos werent killed over that

ajnapoleon
10-09-2011, 04:49 AM
They were killed over that money and no one wanted to be number 2... I know Marbury did not... He wanted his own team it was all KG in minny

Bulls_fan90
10-09-2011, 04:59 AM
Miami 2010-2011

RevisIsland
10-09-2011, 05:15 AM
Kobe and Shaq should have won 10 titles with competent management. If they cared and they got along, nobody could beat them. They ****ed over their chance at history.

heatfan03
10-09-2011, 06:07 AM
Kobe and Shaq should have won 10 titles with competent management. If they cared and they got along, nobody could beat them. They ****ed over their chance at history.

so true

Hellcrooner
10-09-2011, 10:56 AM
you dont have to go too far.

08 and 11 WOULD have been a 4peat if not for wanting to be the Hero ( kob in 08 Bynum in 11)

Chronz
10-09-2011, 12:08 PM
Tmac didnt care about being the man, he just didnt want to play in Toronto. He only joined Orlando ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill. You know, that superstar who was a greater player than Vince.

LOL Bynum? Im pretty sure Pau ****ed that one up more than anything Bynum did. In fact you could argue the reason the Lakers didnt 4peet is because Bynum was injured in 08 and Pau no showed in 11.

Hellcrooner
10-09-2011, 12:30 PM
LOL Bynum? Im pretty sure Pau ****ed that one up more than anything Bynum did. In fact you could argue the reason the Lakers didnt 4peet is because Bynum was injured in 08 and Pau no showed in 11. Also Tmac didnt care about being the man, he just didnt want to play in Toronto. He only joined Orlando ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill. You know, that superstar who was a greater player than Vince.

o yeah because he played so many minutes , specially in the 4th quarters in 09 and 10....:rolleyes:

GodsSon
10-09-2011, 12:41 PM
LOL Bynum? Im pretty sure Pau ****ed that one up more than anything Bynum did. In fact you could argue the reason the Lakers didnt 4peet is because Bynum was injured in 08 and Pau no showed in 11. Also Tmac didnt care about being the man, he just didnt want to play in Toronto. He only joined Orlando ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill. You know, that superstar who was a greater player than Vince.

He might have been better, but he didn't have the hype that VC had; you know, all the talks about being the next "MJ". If you still don't think that being the next "Pippen" didn't affect T-Mac's decision and hurt his ego a little, then I don't know what else to say.

netsgiantsyanks
10-09-2011, 01:14 PM
yeah, it had to be some type of ego situation with t-mac, especially since they're related, he didn't want to be outshined by his cousin

Tony_Starks
10-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Its crazy how the momentum shifted from back in the day everyone pretty much wanting to have their own team to everyone kind of realizing that they need great teammates alongside them to win. I bet if they had to do it over alot of them would've done things differently.

Shaq and Kobe was the worst case though, especially since Shaq proved when he got with Wade that he could step aside and let the other guy be the man. Had he put all the childish pettiness aside with Kobe and management they could've easily had at least two more rings together....

KnicksorBust
10-09-2011, 02:27 PM
Bargnani-Bosh

ajnapoleon
10-09-2011, 02:30 PM
The jordan aspect did this its like he did it all by himself and everyone wanted to be "like mike"...even if he had help with pippen.... but this question came up while i was playing with some old teams with nba 2k12 the lakers was stacked i forgot how much!!! kareem magic worthy byron ac green and perkins??? wow and cooper was still playing!! how could you not win a couple of rings?...the celtics had danny agnige as a 12th man!!! the trailblazers had almost 7 hall of famers on one team... i think the players of today know history that killing your self to be the man is for the birds.

Chronz
10-09-2011, 03:03 PM
He might have been better,
Might have been better? There was no question


he didn't have the hype that VC had; you know, all the talks about being the next "MJ".
How old are you?


If you still don't think that being the next "Pippen" didn't affect T-Mac's decision and hurt his ego a little, then I don't know what else to say.

Why would I think any of that when he chose to join a clearly superior player? I suppose you could say he didnt want to play with Vince but it wasnt because he wanted to be the man, or have his own team. It was because they were in Toronto and he wanted to be closer to home. The fact that he had talks with Grant Hill about going to Orlando long before FA even hit proves my point.

Besides I doubt Tmac thinks the game out the way you do, you dont have to be the next Pippen if your playing alongside a star, you can be a star in your own right if your good enough. Had Tmac stayed, it would have become his team in any meaningful sense of the word.

But just to entertain your thought, why would he be bothered being the next Pippen when he has always preferred playing the facilitating role? In his mind he probably thought he could have been the next Penny or something. In reality tho he didnt care about that, why would you try to play with Hill if you were worried about being a 2nd banana?

Chronz
10-09-2011, 03:04 PM
yeah, it had to be some type of ego situation with t-mac, especially since they're related, he didn't want to be outshined by his cousin
LOL you guys make it sound like they had family picnics and played softball growing up. They didnt even know they were cousins IIRC, they had a bitter falling out so its not like moving away from each other helped their relationship.

Ballah0liC1
10-09-2011, 03:48 PM
Everyone is forgetting tmac was going to a team with another 20 plus scorer in grant hill but we all know how that ended with hill not playing

Andrew32
10-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Shaq and Kobe was the worst case though, especially since Shaq proved when he got with Wade that he could step aside and let the other guy be the man. Had he put all the childish pettiness aside with Kobe and management they could've easily had at least two more rings together....

Dont blame Shaq for what happened in LA.

Kobe/Management were the main reasons they broke up.

Shaq was the Veteran and the team had just won 3 titles in 4 years thanks mostly to his production, impact and dominance.

Kobe usurped the offense in 04 costing them the Title and was publicly bad mouthing Shaq and the Veterans using the media and threatened to leave the team if Buss didn't choose him over Shaq.

Shaq was also immature taking his own shots back at Kobe and demanding more money then he should have but he is far less to do with the breakup then Kobe/Management were.

They were both at fault somewhat but Kobe being the young/new star should have taken a back seat to Shaq and deferred.

If he would have done that then its likely the feud wouldn't have worsened to the point where it was at in 04 and they might have been able to move forward together. Unfortunately they both have tremendous Ego's so that just wasn't in the cards.

Tony_Starks
10-09-2011, 06:27 PM
Dont blame Shaq for what happened in LA.

Kobe/Management were the main reasons they broke up.

Shaq was the Veteran and the team had just won 3 titles in 4 years thanks mostly to his production, impact and dominance.

Kobe usurped the offense in 04 costing them the Title and was publicly bad mouthing Shaq and the Veterans using the media and threatened to leave the team if Buss didn't choose him over Shaq.

Shaq was also immature taking his own shots back at Kobe and demanding more money then he should have but he is far less to do with the breakup then Kobe/Management were.

They were both at fault somewhat but Kobe being the young/new star should have taken a back seat to Shaq and deferred.

If he would have done that then its likely the feud wouldn't have worsened to the point where it was at in 04 and they might have been able to move forward together. Unfortunately they both have tremendous Ego's so that just wasn't in the cards.



In all fairness Shaq created his own demise when he ran down the court humiliating Jerry Buss in an exposition game screaming at him to pay him his money. At that point Buss said he wasn't going to bring him back no matter what the outcome was, and chose to make it Kobe's team.....

naps
10-09-2011, 06:33 PM
Miami 2010-2011

Explain.

Chronz
10-09-2011, 06:47 PM
In all fairness Shaq created his own demise when he ran down the court humiliating Jerry Buss in an exposition game screaming at him to pay him his money. At that point Buss said he wasn't going to bring him back no matter what the outcome was, and chose to make it Kobe's team.....

I highly doubt Buss would stoop to that level just because Shaq wanted money. I would think he cares too much about the Lakers to make it personal.

tr3ymill3r
10-09-2011, 07:12 PM
The Lakers made the right choice keeping Kobe but traded the wrong guy in Butler as opposed to Lamar.

netsgiantsyanks
10-09-2011, 07:44 PM
LOL you guys make it sound like they had family picnics and played softball growing up. They didnt even know they were cousins IIRC, they had a bitter falling out so its not like moving away from each other helped their relationship.

but still, knowing he was related to him, it must have hurt a little in that aspect :shrug:

JayHunter
10-09-2011, 07:50 PM
I remember Marbury saying he went to New Jersey because he wanted to bring winning back to NJ.

beliges
10-09-2011, 07:55 PM
Dont blame Shaq for what happened in LA.

Kobe/Management were the main reasons they broke up.

Shaq was the Veteran and the team had just won 3 titles in 4 years thanks mostly to his production, impact and dominance.

Kobe usurped the offense in 04 costing them the Title and was publicly bad mouthing Shaq and the Veterans using the media and threatened to leave the team if Buss didn't choose him over Shaq.

Shaq was also immature taking his own shots back at Kobe and demanding more money then he should have but he is far less to do with the breakup then Kobe/Management were.

They were both at fault somewhat but Kobe being the young/new star should have taken a back seat to Shaq and deferred.

If he would have done that then its likely the feud wouldn't have worsened to the point where it was at in 04 and they might have been able to move forward together. Unfortunately they both have tremendous Ego's so that just wasn't in the cards.

Well, the fact that Shaq was playing out of shape and was clearly faltering off from what he was upto the 02 season was a major reason for him being traded. At that point it was a choice between Shaq and Kobe and Kobe was simply the better player at that point in time with far greater potential. In hindsight, this was a no brainer trade but at the time people just wanted to degrade Kobe. All that matters in the end is without playing with each other, Kobe won two titles and Shaq managed to win one. That seals the deal to this discussion because when its all said and done, all that matters to an owner is winning and Buss knew he had a greater chance of winning with Kobe at that point that with Shaq.

Andrew32
10-09-2011, 09:01 PM
Well duh, Kobe was just entering his Prime and Shaq was just leaving his after 12-13 years of Dominance.

Shaq was still a far better player in 04 and even in 05 until the thigh injury right b4 the PS.

I agree Buss made the right decision in keeping Kobe however it still was far from Shaqs fault that they broke up.

I still stand by that in a logical world they would have been far more successful either just keeping Shaq or keeping both of them. But of course logic crumbled when the Lakers somehow managed to trade Kwame Brown for Gasol. If not for that Shaq would have won 1-2 Titles with Miami and Kobe would have either continued to lead that team to mediocrity or forced a trade.

Shaq was out of shape in 03, not in 02 or 04 and he was back in game shape by the playoffs. He only missed a handful of games anyway so I dont see why anyone would make a big deal out of it. LA winning in 03 simply wasn't in the Cards.

beliges
10-09-2011, 09:04 PM
Well duh, Kobe was just entering his Prime and Shaq was just leaving his after 12-13 years of Dominance.

Shaq was still a far better player in 04 and even in 05 until the thigh injury right b4 the PS.

I agree Buss made the right decision in keeping Kobe however it still was far from Shaqs fault that they broke up.

I still stand by that in a logical world they would have been far more sucuessful either keeping Shaq or keeping both of them but of course logic crumbled when the Lakers somehow managed to trade Kwame Brown for Gasol. If not for that Shaq would have won 1-2 Titles with Miami and Kobe would have either continued to lead that team to medicority or forced a trade.

Shaq was out of shape in 03, not in 02 or 04 and he was back in game shape by the playoffs. He only missed a handful of games anyway so I dont see why anyone would make a big deal out of it. LA winning in 03 simply wasn't in the Cards.

Shaq was no longer the best player on his team during the 04 playoffs and he got manhandled in the Finals against the Detroit D, as did Kobe.

Andrew32
10-09-2011, 09:13 PM
Shaq had much better production and far more WShares in the 04 Playoffs. (Why exactly was Kobe better?)

Shaq was a much better player that year and in 05 also.

Shaq was Dominant in the Finals and had a 36/20 game in G4.

Shaq averaged what
27 ppg, 11 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.6 blocks, 63.1% shooting

Kobe averaged
22.6 ppg, 4.4 apg, 2.8 rpg, 1.8 steals, .6 blocks, 3.6 turnovers, 38% shooting

Shaq was Dominant, Kobe was terrible.

That wasn't the only issue, Malone was injured and GPayton was playing like crap but the main reason they lost was because Kobe usurped the offense and refused to feed Shaq in the post who was destroying the Detroit D.

beliges
10-09-2011, 09:16 PM
WS huh? Pretty much knew you were gonna come back with a WS or PER comeback. Thats what internet forum people do when theres nothing credible to comeback with.

Andrew32
10-09-2011, 09:22 PM
Shaq averaged
27 ppg, 11 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.6 blocks, 63.1% shooting

Kobe averaged
22.6 ppg, 4.4 apg, 2.8 rpg, 1.8 steals, .6 blocks, 3.6 turnovers, 38% shooting

No PER or WShares there, just pure stats like you want it.

PER reflects overall production, better production = better player.

Shaq > Kobe in 04 and 05.

BillyHoyle35
10-09-2011, 09:32 PM
I remember Marbury saying he went to New Jersey because he wanted to bring winning back to NJ.

he did didn't he... when he was traded for kidd :)

BlondeBomber41
10-09-2011, 09:58 PM
I'd say the most recent example of this is Joe Johnson in PHX. He didn't wanna be there, wanted to go be the man in ATL. If he would of stuck around, that team would of won a championship.

llemon
10-09-2011, 10:24 PM
I'd say the most recent example of this is Joe Johnson in PHX. He didn't wanna be there, wanted to go be the man in ATL. If he would of stuck around, that team would of won a championship.

Yeah, if Joe Johnson had been a 7' 1" Center that could protect the basket and score inside.

Suns totally ripped off the Hawks in that JJ trade.

210Don
10-09-2011, 10:28 PM
I'd say the most recent example of this is Joe Johnson in PHX. He didn't wanna be there, wanted to go be the man in ATL. If he would of stuck around, that team would of won a championship.
omg how great would that have been if he stayed there...:(
i remember being so happy when joe left the suns i knew theyd never win lol

llemon
10-09-2011, 10:59 PM
When I think of this topic, I always think of the '95-'96 Knicks, as I am a native Manhattanite, and a Nets fan that hates the Knicks, but did pay attention to them, always hoping for the worst.

The famous and infamous Don Nelson was hired to coach the Knicks, and being Don Nelson, he was looking to bring something to the Knicks that would, in his mind, improve them. And Nelson was still relatively sane at the time.

Don thought that running the offense through Anthony Mason might be an approach that would be a way to go.

Mason was an incredibly talented, tough, strong and not yet psychotic player that really had incredible handle.

Knicks were doing very well, despite injuries to Oakley and Ewing, but when Ewing returned from his short stint om the DL, he could not live with not being the be all and end all of the Knicks offense. So he rolled over like a dog on Nelson. Shortly thereafter Nelson got fired.

Now for the best part of the story, from a Nets' fans' perspective.

Don Nelson then took a job with the Mavs.

For some reason (Don becoming a little more psychotic now) really, really, really liked Shawn Bradley (although Don passed on drafting him when he was available). So Don traded a starting 5 (Montross, Gatling, McCloud, Jim Jackson and Sam Cassell) to Nets for Shawn Bradley.

Nets absolutely did not appreciate the trade, but they did trade Cassell for Marbury (horrible, horrible trade). Then Marbury got traded for Kidd, and two Finals appearances.

It took awhile, but Patrick Ewing brought Jason Kidd to the Nets.

I love most of that story.

LA_Raiders
10-10-2011, 12:57 AM
How about now? Everybody wants to be a sidekick... LOL

LA_Raiders
10-10-2011, 12:59 AM
he did didn't he... when he was traded for kidd :)

lol, so true

MTar786
10-10-2011, 01:31 AM
I highly doubt Buss would stoop to that level just because Shaq wanted money. I would think he cares too much about the Lakers to make it personal.

you dont know jerry buss then. i remember wanting to cry when i heard on the radio that buss was trading shaq no matter what in 04. and that shaq was even selling his house in la before the trade even went down. shaq was also mad because in an interview buss said hed keep kobe over shaq. so yeah. both sides were petty

MTar786
10-10-2011, 01:35 AM
Shaq was no longer the best player on his team during the 04 playoffs and he got manhandled in the Finals against the Detroit D, as did Kobe.

shaq got mad handled in the finals by detroit? what are you smoking????? btw, shaq was better than kobe in ALL of 04 and id call the equals in 05.

MTar786
10-10-2011, 01:56 AM
oh, also.. kobe costed us the championship in 04. Also phil did a louzy coaching job in 04 too. but everyone is too afraid to say that

mdm692
10-10-2011, 06:06 PM
suns!!! =(. . .amare/marion/joe johnson
If all wanted ships instead money our roster would probably look like this
Nash
Joe johnson
Hill
Marion
Amare/frye

Plus draft picks

Chronz
10-10-2011, 07:32 PM
you dont know jerry buss then. i remember wanting to cry when i heard on the radio that buss was trading shaq no matter what in 04. and that shaq was even selling his house in la before the trade even went down. shaq was also mad because in an interview buss said hed keep kobe over shaq. so yeah. both sides were petty
I really doubt you know Jerry Buss any better than I do, do you have any proof that he was going to trade Shaq no matter what at the point in time you mentioned?

Tony_Starks
10-10-2011, 09:58 PM
I really doubt you know Jerry Buss any better than I do, do you have any proof that he was going to trade Shaq no matter what at the point in time you mentioned?


For what its worth Kobe is quoted as saying thats what Buss told him and when they told Shaq that he said he believed it 100%. Now thats coming from two people involved so.......

Bruno
10-10-2011, 10:03 PM
you dont have to go too far.

08 and 11 WOULD have been a 4peat if not for wanting to be the Hero ( kob in 08 Bynum in 11)

Common Crooner. There was a lot more wrong with the team in 2011 than "Bynum trying to be the man" and you know it. Just wasn't our year man; tired legs, no rest for three straight off seasons and a very hungry team were just too much.

IDunknown
10-10-2011, 10:44 PM
He might have been better, but he didn't have the hype that VC had; you know, all the talks about being the next "MJ". If you still don't think that being the next "Pippen" didn't affect T-Mac's decision and hurt his ego a little, then I don't know what else to say.

Grant Hill was being talked about like that.He was like Lebron,a triple double machine.If you don't remember his Sprite commercial, then you must be young.

Chronz
10-10-2011, 10:55 PM
For what its worth Kobe is quoted as saying thats what Buss told him and when they told Shaq that he said he believed it 100%. Now thats coming from two people involved so.......
Thats interesting, Ill google it

Chronz
10-10-2011, 10:56 PM
I'd say the most recent example of this is Joe Johnson in PHX. He didn't wanna be there, wanted to go be the man in ATL. If he would of stuck around, that team would of won a championship.

Yeah perfect example, guy was on a stacked team but chose to waste his best years on a non-contender