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MylesKong
10-05-2011, 10:38 AM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.

LakersIn5
10-05-2011, 10:43 AM
yup

Ill21
10-05-2011, 10:48 AM
The players dont give a **** about the fans. They just want there money.

dnewguy
10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.


This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.

beasted86
10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Boo a person in public because they don't want to take a 20% paycut? I got a different idea. Why don't we all act like adults and let them handle their business, and don't do anything childish or simple minded. This is a battle of billionaires vs. millionaires. I honestly don't see how anyone thinks one side is less greedy than the other.

dnewguy
10-05-2011, 10:57 AM
Boo a person in public because they don't want to take a 20% paycut? I got a different idea. Why don't we all act like adults and let them handle their business, and don't do anything childish or simple minded. This is a battle of billionaires vs. millionaires. I honestly don't see how anyone thinks one side is less greedy than the other.

That makes some sense, I am starting to get sick of this folks that defend the billionaires as if the billions came out of thin air. Trust me, I work hard everyday, you don't become a billionaire by working hard....you exploit your way to billions. The "smart one" sits here protesting the players instead of protesting against ticket prices. Be a realist for once, your tea party pro-billionaire mentality is getting worn out.

Shmontaine
10-05-2011, 11:06 AM
Boo a person in public because they don't want to take a 20% paycut? I got a different idea. Why don't we all act like adults and let them handle their business, and don't do anything childish or simple minded. This is a battle of billionaires vs. millionaires. I honestly don't see how anyone thinks one side is less greedy than the other.

couldn't help but think of wade's actions last week when you mentioned this... :D

but, in regards to the thread... the players will eventually take the paycut, unless they choose to leave the nba and do something on their own... i would propose if you see a nba player in public, you give them business proposal and hope they make you the CEO.. this way you both don't need the nba anymore...

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 11:13 AM
I just wanna see games. 50/50 seems fair to me. The NBA system was screwed up and the product was suffering. I just wanna see games. Please don't liken NBA players to a worker's union. Please.

How about all the people that work these arenas? I think they fall under "taking the owners side" right?

PurpleJesus
10-05-2011, 11:23 AM
good luck with that.

llemon
10-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.

Much too pro-management

ttam68
10-05-2011, 11:25 AM
The owners aren't showing any concern for the workers at the arenas or the fans either. Both sides will take whatever they can get, and it seems to be the owners that are the biting off the most.

The league could definitely benefit from some more balance, but handing over another $500 million per year to guys like Donald Sterling isn't some certain fix. Revenue sharing and/or good business decisions could easily make all NBA teams profitable. Players are the highest paid athletes (simply a result of them playing on the smallest rosters). Neither side is really right or wrong, so theres no ground for rallying against players here.

llemon
10-05-2011, 11:26 AM
I just wanna see games. 50/50 seems fair to me. The NBA system was screwed up and the product was suffering. I just wanna see games. Please don't liken NBA players to a worker's union. Please.

How about all the people that work these arenas? I think they fall under "taking the owners side" right?

It seems the owners locked the arena workers out with the players.

beasted86
10-05-2011, 11:28 AM
I just wanna see games. 50/50 seems fair to me. The NBA system was screwed up and the product was suffering. I just wanna see games. Please don't liken NBA players to a worker's union. Please.

How about all the people that work these arenas? I think they fall under "taking the owners side" right?

The owners are the reason the league is under a lockout, not the players. No profession anywhere has had ownership ask it's workers to take a 20% paycut without some form of backlash or resistance... so yes, the fault for the lockout is on the owners.

And I'm sure the arena workers are on the side of "when is my next paycheck coming?", not the owners or players who are billionaires and millionaires.

SteBO
10-05-2011, 11:30 AM
For the owners to ease off 46-54 to come to terms with 50-50 was very big of them, and that without a doubt is fair. I just can't help but feel that the players should give up a little more. I mean, they've gotten the better end of the deal for quite some time now. :shrug:

Sly Guy
10-05-2011, 11:32 AM
The players dont give a **** about the fans. They just want there money.

so do the owners. Don't ever forget that. Lockouts aren't about making the game better, levelling the playing field in terms of competition, or keeping the fans happy. It's about who gets what slice of the pie. When this much money is one the line, both sides are equally greedy. Never forget that.

KingPosey
10-05-2011, 11:33 AM
I think you are completely wrong OP.

PhillyFaninLA
10-05-2011, 11:36 AM
This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.



I'm going to correct a few things with facts.

- The fall of the middle class isn't the public's fault its the government.
- The reason businesses left the US is because the business tax rate was raised from 25% which is the international standard to 35%, businesses left right after that happened
- in 1974 the difference between government spending and the rate of inflation was 30%, the government was spending 30% more then the rate of inflation and that number has risen every year without exception since and is now a crippling greater then 300% difference its not sustainable.
- In 1974 when the problem started the tea party you are criticizing didn't exist.
- In that time we have had both republican and democratic congresses and presidents. We've had both parties having there own party running both branches of congress and both being the opposing party.

Just want to show you some facts.

Bravo95
10-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.
:pity:

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 11:51 AM
I'm neither pro-owner or pro-player. I am pro-fan. And I just want to see basketball.
If I see any owners on the street I will boo them too.

Tanakid777
10-05-2011, 11:59 AM
I'm going to correct a few things with facts.

- The fall of the middle class isn't the public's fault its the government.
- The reason businesses left the US is because the business tax rate was raised from 25% which is the international standard to 35%, businesses left right after that happened
- in 1974 the difference between government spending and the rate of inflation was 30%, the government was spending 30% more then the rate of inflation and that number has risen every year without exception since and is now a crippling greater then 300% difference its not sustainable.
- In 1974 when the problem started the tea party you are criticizing didn't exist.
- In that time we have had both republican and democratic congresses and presidents. We've had both parties having there own party running both branches of congress and both being the opposing party.

Just want to show you some facts.

great post

llemon
10-05-2011, 12:06 PM
For the owners to ease off 46-54 to come to terms with 50-50 was very big of them, and that without a doubt is fair. I just can't help but feel that the players should give up a little more. I mean, they've gotten the better end of the deal for quite some time now. :shrug:

50-50 wasn't an actual offer

bledrules
10-05-2011, 12:09 PM
Billionaires and a bunch of tall ego maniacs the NBA has become a joke

CANCEL THE SEASON!!!!!!

SteBO
10-05-2011, 12:10 PM
50-50 wasn't an actual offer
Yeah, I just found that out. :laugh2: In any case, my sentiments remain the same.

dnewguy
10-05-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm going to correct a few things with facts.

- The fall of the middle class isn't the public's fault its the government.
- The reason businesses left the US is because the business tax rate was raised from 25% which is the international standard to 35%, businesses left right after that happened
- in 1974 the difference between government spending and the rate of inflation was 30%, the government was spending 30% more then the rate of inflation and that number has risen every year without exception since and is now a crippling greater then 300% difference its not sustainable.
- In 1974 when the problem started the tea party you are criticizing didn't exist.
- In that time we have had both republican and democratic congresses and presidents. We've had both parties having there own party running both branches of congress and both being the opposing party.

Just want to show you some facts.

LMAO...is that a joke? Businesses left because of anti-workers conservative rage coupled with tax cuts and trade policies. Keep trying.

da ThRONe
10-05-2011, 12:25 PM
For the owners to ease off 46-54 to come to terms with 50-50 was very big of them, and that without a doubt is fair. I just can't help but feel that the players should give up a little more. I mean, they've gotten the better end of the deal for quite some time now. :shrug:

Is it really 50-50? From what I understand the owners will take a cut of the BRI than split whats lefted 50-50.

You have to be careful everytime Stern opens his mouth.

Bravo95
10-05-2011, 12:35 PM
I'll never understand why people (fans) insist on comparing their own salary to these athletes. You made your decision for a career and so did they. This is how it goes, people. You're worth whatever you can negotiate.

Stuckey#3
10-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Kidnap Steph Curry and hold him for the season as ransom? :shrug:

Da Knicks
10-05-2011, 12:48 PM
I will boo the owners more so than the players, billionares and millionares wont make me lose any sleep.

beasted86
10-05-2011, 12:49 PM
Is it really 50-50? From what I understand the owners will take a cut of the BRI than split whats lefted 50-50.

You have to be careful everytime Stern opens his mouth.

Yes, only a portion of the total revenue is considered BRI. Then that "BRI" is then split.

Shmontaine
10-05-2011, 01:10 PM
Yes, only a portion of the total revenue is considered BRI. Then that "BRI" is then split.

what portion are you talking about...



Owners are quick to point out that the BRI formula is based on gross revenue; when they spend additional money to promote ticket sales, etc., they eat into their own share of the pie but the players don't take the same hit.

http://basketball.about.com/od/nbateams/ss/Nba-Lockout-101-The-Issues-The-Arguments-And-The-Nbas-Uncertain-Future_2.htm


The other thing to remember going forward — watch the BRI split in the negotiations. And how they define BRI (the owners want to take out certain expenses, they want it to be more net than gross). BRI is what really matters. All the talk of hard caps and guaranteed contracts and the rest of it are all slaves to the BRI split. What matters is how much of the pie you get, not how you divide up your share.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/24/nba-owners-had-to-write-the-players-another-check%E2%80%A6-that-won%E2%80%99t-help-things/


13. What is included in Basketball Related Income (BRI)?

Basketball Related Income (BRI) essentially includes any income received by the NBA, NBA Properties or NBA Media Ventures. This includes:

Regular season gate receipts
Broadcast rights
Exhibition game proceeds
Playoff gate receipts
Novelty, program and concession sales (at the arena and in am-identified stores within proximity of an NBA arena)
Parking
Proceeds from team sponsorships
Proceeds from team promotions
Arena club revenues
Proceeds from summer camps
Proceeds from non-NBA basketball tournaments
Proceeds from mascot and dance team appearances
Proceeds from beverage sale rights
40% of proceeds from arena signage
40% of proceeds from luxury suites
45% - 50% of proceeds from arena naming rights
Proceeds from other premium seat licenses
Proceeds received by NBA Properties, including international television, sponsorships, revenues from NBA Entertainment, the All-Star Game, the McDonald's Championship and other NBA special events.

Some of the things specifically not included in BRI are proceeds from the grant of expansion teams, fines, and revenue sharing (e.g. luxury tax).

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

As i understand it, the BRI is taken from GROSS REVENUE....

chicago lulz
10-05-2011, 01:13 PM
I'll never understand why people (fans) insist on comparing their own salary to these athletes. You made your decision for a career and so did they. This is how it goes, people. You're worth whatever you can negotiate.

Trust me...if a 5'8 player could succeed in the NBA, I would have chosen to be an athlete...considering I couldn't force myself to grow a couple more inches, I don't think it was really my choice.

PrettyBoyJ
10-05-2011, 01:33 PM
You think the players care what we think.. they say the right things to the media praise the fans but they can care less.. We basically sign their checks every time we buy a ticket or but a hotdog at the game.. The best way to show them how we feel is boycott games and let all the team take a major hit in attendance which will effect their return in revenue..

Bramaca
10-05-2011, 01:35 PM
what portion are you talking about...

As i understand it, the BRI is taken from GROSS REVENUE....

Basically everything that should be in BRI is as well as some things that maybe shouldn't be. But some people like to suggest that things like real estate deals that are completely outside of the basketball sphere and really have nothing to do with the game should be included.

Shmontaine
10-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Basically everything that should be in BRI is as well as some things that maybe shouldn't be. But some people like to suggest that things like real estate deals that are completely outside of the basketball sphere and really have nothing to do with the game should be included.

i know, and i would liken those suggestions as absurd as teams getting a percentage of NBA stars endorsement deals...

theheatles
10-05-2011, 02:02 PM
how is billionaires squeezing money from millionaires "fair"...owners don't give a **** about any individual fan, the owners are vindictive and conniving businessmen that ruined many peoples lives to get more money. although they have enough to provide for their families legacy until the end of time if they aren't complete morons

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 02:02 PM
You think the players care what we think.. they say the right things to the media praise the fans but they can care less.. We basically sign their checks every time we buy a ticket or but a hotdog at the game.. The best way to show them how we feel is boycott games and let all the team take a major hit in attendance which will effect their return in revenue..

Their egos do.

SwatTeam
10-05-2011, 02:07 PM
Before anyone feels bad for the owners, take a look at this: http://hoopshype.com/owners.htm

I'm more pro-player than anything, but I'm selfish and value watching basketball more than anything. I could care less who wins this battle, but I understand where the players stand and support their cause. However, to boo them in public for trying to do damage control on their impending pay cuts is asinine. You support the super rich over the rich? Whats the difference? About a thousand million? Who cares what the fans think anyways, people will watch basketball regardless if the product on the floor is good. Who is the product? I think its the players. You can ask all the bandwagon fans in Miami what caused them to jump on the bandwagon in the first place. For some reason, I have a feeling their answer won't be because Micky Arison cares about them. It has something to do with that big 3. Just my two cents.

sixer04fan
10-05-2011, 02:16 PM
The players dont give a **** about the fans. They just want there money.

And we don't give a **** about them. We just want to see some basketball. Or that's my feeling at least. I just want to see some basketball. I don't give a **** how much they get paid. They're getting paid enough.

smith&wesson
10-05-2011, 02:27 PM
ya just dont throw any thing at metta world peace or he will ron artest your as like mallace at the pallace

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 02:28 PM
And we don't give a **** about them. We just want to see some basketball. Or that's my feeling at least. I just want to see some basketball. I don't give a **** how much they get paid. They're getting paid enough.

Bottom line.

Reach a damned conclusion already!

I believe agents or their staff post on these boards. I don't get a fan of basketball not wanting this to end as soon as possible. Does not make sense. And I would assume anyone posting on a basketball forum is a basketball fan. But that's just me.

The league was just getting interesting too. A lot of plot points at the end of the season. Seemed like they were getting fans back. Oh well...

daleja424
10-05-2011, 02:31 PM
Up until now I have been firmly on the players side... bc I feel like the owners have been unwilling to move... but now both sides have moved and it is time to split the difference.

Now I am slightly on the owners side if a true 50-50 was offered b/c they were the most recent people to make a significant move.

My problem with the owners is that they didnt counter the players counter...they just rejected it.

Here is how it has broken down so far:

Players want 57%
Owners offer 46%
Players move down to 54%
Owners offer 46%
Players move down to 53%
Owners move up to 47%
Owners move up to 50%
Players move down to 52%

Everything was leading up to 51%... and they did the hard part by closing the gap... and then neither side showed willingness to split the different at 51%...

As soon as one side formally offers 51% I feel like the other side will take it as a win and move on. 51% is the perfect number bc the owners feel they have won bc they gainsed 6% back... and the players feel that they have won b/c they maintained a controlling share.

llemon
10-05-2011, 02:33 PM
Bottom line.

Reach a damned conclusion already!

I believe agents or their staff post on these boards. I don't get a fan of basketball not wanting this to end as soon as possible. Does not make sense. And I would assume anyone posting on a basketball forum is a basketball fan. But that's just me.

The league was just getting interesting too. A lot of plot points at the end of the season. Seemed like they were getting fans back. Oh well...

Hey, I want NBA basketball too, but bidniz iz bidniz.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 02:36 PM
Hey, I want NBA basketball too, but bidniz iz bidniz.

False.

If they were treating this like a business they would have a deal already. The 2% seperating them right now equates to 80 million dollars.

if we don't play a season, both side lose 2 billion dollars. It would take 25 years worth of that 2% to make up the losses that would be incurred this year... and the cba will have been changes at least three times by then.

The smart business decision is to settle on 51% and move on.

This has become a battle of principal... and everyone is losing.

Sly Guy
10-05-2011, 02:36 PM
Bottom line.

Reach a damned conclusion already!

I believe agents or their staff post on these boards. I don't get a fan of basketball not wanting this to end as soon as possible. Does not make sense. And I would assume anyone posting on a basketball forum is a basketball fan. But that's just me.

The league was just getting interesting too. A lot of plot points at the end of the season. Seemed like they were getting fans back. Oh well...

I don't necessarily want it to end right away. I want the NBA to take a hit and realize the fans aren't interested in the squabbling over money. That league parity is an issue as it pertains to salary caps, the league officiating is an issue. The longer this goes, the more fans become upset. The more fans become upset, the more positive changes the league will have to make to bring them back. It's still our dollars that pay all their salaries from the head office down to the waterboy. But since the fans don't have a union or sit at a bargaining table, our voices are not heard, and the only hope that it will be is if the lockout lasts long enough for enough people to become upset and force positive change, because I think the NBA can stand to use a lot of it.

llemon
10-05-2011, 02:41 PM
False.

If they were treating this like a business they would have a deal already. The 2% seperating them right now equates to 80 million dollars.

if we don't play a season, both side lose 2 billion dollars. It would take 25 years worth of that 2% to make up the losses that would be incurred this year... and the cba will have been changes at least three times by then.

The smart business decision is to settle on 51% and move on.

This has become a battle of principal... and everyone is losing.

So why don't the owners just give in?

daleja424
10-05-2011, 02:43 PM
So why don't the owners just give in?

Same thing. Principal. The 2% is not what they are fighting for at this point... that is like 2 million per team per year (Vs the hundred million they lose for not playing this year)...

Both sides are fighting to be declared the winner... when in reality...at 51% split both sides get what the want and need.

They are just being pigheaded right now and refuse to be the one to give in...

mzgrizz
10-05-2011, 02:44 PM
50/50 is fair enough. Players need to speak up or their union will knock them out of their jobs. Yes I know it wasn't a hard offer but Fish should have been more reasonable. Play the game.

SwatTeam
10-05-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm tired of everyone complaining about parity in a sport where there are 10 players on the court at a time. One player can dominate a court at any given time if he is more talented than everyone else on court. If anyone here has ever played pick up basketball they would know that. This is not football, where every position sets up the other position and teamwork is key. A guy can literally stand in the corner playing with Lebron and just wait for him to kick it out to you or just watch him go off. Parity is not going to change that. The problem in the game is that the crappy teams don't know how to scout and draft properly. If your team gets a high draft pick and whiffs on the player the effects are felt more than it does in a sport like football. The CBA is not going to change that.

llemon
10-05-2011, 02:55 PM
Same thing. Principal. The 2% is not what they are fighting for at this point... that is like 2 million per team per year (Vs the hundred million they lose for not playing this year)...

Both sides are fighting to be declared the winner... when in reality...at 51% split both sides get what the want and need.

They are just being pigheaded right now and refuse to be the one to give in...

And therein, my friend, is the Management Union Labor Negotiations Process.

Was on strike for 5 months when I worked for Nynex because the it was the management 's negotiators last negotiation, and he wanted to go out a winner.

Fortunately, in New York, after 7 weeks you can file for unemployment benefits, and in the end, the Union held strong and got 80-85% of what they wanted.

But these negotiations have many different faces.

Was on strike for 7 months '71-'72 for NYTel. That strike was later determined to have been a wildcat strike, and it was settled during Nixon's 'Wage/Price' freeze. Chaotic times.

Sly Guy
10-05-2011, 02:55 PM
I'm tired of everyone complaining about parity in a sport where there are 10 players on the court at a time. One player can dominate a court at any given time if he is more talented than everyone else on court. If anyone here has ever played pick up basketball they would know that. This is not football, where every position sets up the other position and teamwork is key. A guy can literally stand in the corner playing with Lebron and just wait for him to kick it out to you or just watch him go off. Parity is not going to change that. The problem in the game is that the crappy teams don't know how to scout and draft properly. If your team gets a high draft pick and whiffs on the player the effects are felt more than it does in a sport like football. The CBA is not going to change that.

very narrow minded view. What about free agency? If every player chooses to go wherever both salary and marketing revenue, tax shelter etc situations are best, then what chance does that leave to other markets in less than ideal conditions?

Scouting/drafting is only a small part of the overall equation. When you draft, you draft on the potential to be great, when you sign a free agent, you're signing on a track record of success. By your formula, you're saying that it's an equal playing field if one team has deep enough pockets to pick all the plums off the tree after they've spent a few seasons ripening in the NBA while another has to make due with a development process and endure a healthy dose of losing so that they can ensure the best possible position to pick from.

It might be fun to be a fan of LA in this league, but I can assure you, it's not nearly as fun to be a fan of a team like the bucks or the pacers and have to watch the same 4-5 teams be in contention year after year. How many times can you play out the Boston-LA rivalry before the league feels like it's comprised of 2 teams and 28 farm teams?

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 02:57 PM
I don't necessarily want it to end right away. I want the NBA to take a hit and realize the fans aren't interested in the squabbling over money. That league parity is an issue as it pertains to salary caps, the league officiating is an issue. The longer this goes, the more fans become upset. The more fans become upset, the more positive changes the league will have to make to bring them back. It's still our dollars that pay all their salaries from the head office down to the waterboy. But since the fans don't have a union or sit at a bargaining table, our voices are not heard, and the only hope that it will be is if the lockout lasts long enough for enough people to become upset and force positive change, because I think the NBA can stand to use a lot of it.

Or they become disinterested and find other ways to spend their time and money. And basketball becomes a fringe sport(if this hasn't already happened) and falls in the pecking order between hockey and soccer.

John Walls Era
10-05-2011, 03:01 PM
Good thing theres NFL. After an incredible season the Nba is going to lose so many fans.

Sly Guy
10-05-2011, 03:02 PM
Or they become disinterested and find other ways to spend their time and money. And basketball becomes a fringe sport(if this hasn't already happened) and falls in the pecking order between hockey and soccer.

people will never give up on sports entirely. Hockey took a hit the same way baseball did. Eventually things turn around, but if it takes a few years of being a fringe sport to fix some of the issues plaguing the league, so be it. I'll still be a fan during and after, because as a fan, the only thing I'm interested in is the sport itself, not the economics behind it. I don't know of many fans who are entertained purely on CBAs and salary-cap figures.

RevisIsland
10-05-2011, 03:13 PM
I've just given up, we're losing the season, I'm occupying myself with other things.

SwatTeam
10-05-2011, 03:22 PM
very narrow minded view. What about free agency? If every player chooses to go wherever both salary and marketing revenue, tax shelter etc situations are best, then what chance does that leave to other markets in less than ideal conditions?

Scouting/drafting is only a small part of the overall equation. When you draft, you draft on the potential to be great, when you sign a free agent, you're signing on a track record of success. By your formula, you're saying that it's an equal playing field if one team has deep enough pockets to pick all the plums off the tree after they've spent a few seasons ripening in the NBA.

It might be fun to be a fan of LA in this league, but I can assure you, it's not nearly as fun to be a fan of a team like the bucks or the pacers and have to watch the same 4-5 teams be in contention year after year. How many times can you play out the Boston-LA rivalry before the league feels like it's comprised of 2 teams and 28 farm teams?

What about free agency? Last offseason proves that big time players will take LESS than market value to team up together. Parity is not going to stop that. Players want to go where they can make the most money (endorsements, etc) and exposure (big markets). Its not New York, LA, Chicago, or Miami's fault they are more attractive places for players to play than Memphis or Indiana for basketball. So what is the problem? Stern set up teams in areas where the interest in NBA basketball isn't that strong whether it be population size or economically. Maybe some contraction would bode the league well seeing as casual fan interest isn't so great in areas such as New Orleans or Charlotte respectively. I've said this before anyways but I'll say it again: Since Jordan retired 6 championships have gone to big market teams (Lakers, Celtics), 4 championships to small market teams (Spurs), and 3 to tweener market teams (Heat, Pistons, Mavs). What's wrong with that formula? I guess you just hate dynasties, but it shows that it doesn't matter where your team plays it depends on management not running their teams like the government runs the country.

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 03:23 PM
people will never give up on sports entirely. Hockey took a hit the same way baseball did. Eventually things turn around, but if it takes a few years of being a fringe sport to fix some of the issues plaguing the league, so be it. I'll still be a fan during and after, because as a fan, the only thing I'm interested in is the sport itself, not the economics behind it. I don't know of many fans who are entertained purely on CBAs and salary-cap figures.

All I want to do is watch NEW professional basketball games at the highest level. That's it!

I feel like I have to atleast try to help it along even through a pitiful grassroots effort.

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 03:24 PM
I've just given up, we're losing the season, I'm occupying myself with other things.

Dammit! One down...

69centers
10-05-2011, 03:41 PM
If the season loses games, whenever they reconvene, we as fans should boycott the first 2 games and when no one shows up in the stands, they'll all realize how asinine they acted.

MylesKong
10-05-2011, 04:12 PM
If the season loses games, whenever they reconvene, we as fans should boycott the first 2 games and when no one shows up in the stands, they'll all realize how asinine they acted.

Not just boycott, protest! Picket signs and all!

sixer04fan
10-05-2011, 04:17 PM
The bottom line is once the league starts missing games and the players start missing their paychecks, they will start losing their leverage... The players can "dig in" all they want. But in the waiting game of owners vs. players, billionaires vs. millionaires, I guarantee the players, the millionaires will lose. It's in the best interest of the players to get a deal done as quickly as possible. If they decertify and let the agents rule the negotiations for them, things are gonna get really messy and take that much longer to get through the process, and they will undoubtedly get screwed.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 04:51 PM
The bottom line is once the league starts missing games and the players start missing their paychecks, they will start losing their leverage... The players can "dig in" all they want. But in the waiting game of owners vs. players, billionaires vs. millionaires, I guarantee the players, the millionaires will lose. It's in the best interest of the players to get a deal done as quickly as possible. If they decertify and let the agents rule the negotiations for them, things are gonna get really messy and take that much longer to get through the process, and they will undoubtedly get screwed.

This is very narrow minded.

If we do not start on time the players get no check...true...but they have been saving money for years according to the NBPA.

The owners on the other hand thought it was unbearable when they were spending 300 million out of pocket last year... well they are in for a rude awakening when they are on the hook for over a billion dollars out of pocket this year...

What is my point? Missing a check is a lot better than getting a bill... the players may not make any money...but the owners will be both not making money and getting the bills...

Shmontaine
10-05-2011, 05:56 PM
False.

If they were treating this like a business they would have a deal already. The 2% seperating them right now equates to 80 million dollars.

if we don't play a season, both side lose 2 billion dollars. It would take 25 years worth of that 2% to make up the losses that would be incurred this year... and the cba will have been changes at least three times by then.

The smart business decision is to settle on 51% and move on.

This has become a battle of principal... and everyone is losing.

Total BRI has averaged around $3.6 billion over the last 3 years. the 57% the players get is 2.05 Billion... the 1.55 Billion is what the owners get...

the players lose more than the owners with a lockout...

the combined net worth of all owners are 62.36 billion. i don't know what the combined net worth of all the players are, but i would be surprised if it's even over the 2 billion they make a year...

which group do you think can last longer in a lockout??



This is very narrow minded.

If we do not start on time the players get no check...true...but they have been saving money for years according to the NBPA.

The owners on the other hand thought it was unbearable when they were spending 300 million out of pocket last year... well they are in for a rude awakening when they are on the hook for over a billion dollars out of pocket this year...

What is my point? Missing a check is a lot better than getting a bill... the players may not make any money...but the owners will be both not making money and getting the bills...

62.36 billion combined net worth amongst owners... and without a season, they won't be paying 1 billion in costs... sure they have to pay some money for arena leases and what not, but no employee salaries and no fuel costs, food costs, etc...

you don't think the players have bills???

daleja424
10-05-2011, 05:59 PM
who cares hat bri has been the last 3 years... It was projected to be neary 4.4 billion this coming season...

Players lose 2.2 billion (on a 50-50 split)

Owners lose 2.2 billion in income + over a billion in expenses out of pocket

The players are locked out... not the coaches, GMs, trainers, and all the other staff that are employed by the NBA and their teams. Those salaries are still paid even when the NBA is not making money.

Shmontaine
10-05-2011, 06:23 PM
who cares hat bri has been the last 3 years... It was projected to be neary 4.4 billion this coming season...

Players lose 2.2 billion (on a 50-50 split)

Owners lose 2.2 billion in income + over a billion in expenses out of pocket

The players are locked out... not the coaches, GMs, trainers, and all the other staff that are employed by the NBA and their teams. Those salaries are still paid even when the NBA is not making money.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/miami-heat-cut-salaries-of-team-staff-by-10-then-25/


After the LeBron James-Dwyane Wade-Chris Bosh signing bonanza, the Miami Heat quietly (and severely) slashed salaries for team staff members, many of whom are feeling the hurt during the NBA lockout with no signs of relief anytime soon. (The staff in Miami certainly isn’t alone in this predicament.) From the Palm Beach Post: “According to multiple sources, staffers in the basketball operation – in coaching, training, scouting, equipment, media relations and so on — were presented with an option last fall, after the Heat had already signed James, Wade and Chris Bosh and was selling tickets at an unprecedented pace. To guarantee retention during a potential lockout, they had to accept the across-the-board 10 percent pay cut, from the lockout’s July 1 start through Sept. 30. On Oct. 1, that pay cut would grow to 25 percent through Mar. 31 or until the lockout ended, whichever came first. If the lockout lasted past Mar. 31, which would surely cancel the season, the reduction would rise to 50 percent. Since Micky Arison has a reputation for treating employees well, many staffers were surprised and disappointed by the measures. While it amounts to more lost money for the likes of Pat Riley and Erik Spoelstra – both of whom did take cuts, according to two sources – it hurts those on the lower levels more. And, in the case of many, including scouts, there has been little real change in their duties, at least so far. Steve Ross, the Dolphins’ owner, rolled back salaries as much as 20 percent during the NFL lockout, but made up the difference when the impasse ended. Employees have been given no assurance that Arison will do the same, according to sources, though the Heat had close to a 95 percent renewal of season tickets and gets to keep that money during the lockout.”

fadedmario
10-05-2011, 06:39 PM
The players dont give a **** about the fans. They just want there money.

This ^^^^

fadedmario
10-05-2011, 06:41 PM
I'm done with the NBA if the players keep acting like this. Much like baseball lost fans when they went on strike. It's coming for the NBA - guarantee it.

llemon
10-05-2011, 06:42 PM
This ^^^^

But the owners care deeply about the great unwashed.

shep33
10-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Players will cave, they don't have the leverage they think they have.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 08:03 PM
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/miami-heat-cut-salaries-of-team-staff-by-10-then-25/

You just proved what I said, which is that the employees are still being paid. Yes, they are only being paid 75% of their normal salary...but they are still getting paid...and all of that is out of pocket on the owners part.

llemon
10-05-2011, 08:05 PM
You just proved what I said, which is that the employees are still being paid. Yes, they are only being paid 75% of their normal salary...but they are still getting paid...and all of that is out of pocket on the owners part.

Oh, those wonderful owners.

Shall we just proclaim them Gods, as they are so God-like?

daleja424
10-05-2011, 08:07 PM
Oh, those wonderful owners.

Shall we just proclaim them Gods, as they are so God-like?

No. Just making the point that both sides have big reasons to get this done. Owners are on the hook for a ton of money and players want a check.

llemon
10-05-2011, 08:13 PM
No. Just making the point that both sides have big reasons to get this done. Owners are on the hook for a ton of money and players want a check.

Sorry, but I'm a Union man. It is important that this Union stays strong, as the American People and the Unions of America need to see a union of millionaires stand strong against the billionaire owners.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 08:19 PM
Sorry, but I'm a Union man. It is important that this Union stays strong, as the American People and the Unions of America need to see a union of millionaires stand strong against the billionaire owners.

Unions should hold out while there is something to gain, but I don't believe they should stand on principal when it is not in the best financial interest of their members. Holding out for 2% is not worth losing a season. It isn't even worth losing a month in reality. They will never get that money back. It is in both sides best interest to get this done asap before anymore revenue is lost.

I understand standing on principal...but both sides have been adamant that this is about business. If that is true... they need to deal before they permanently lose revenue that can never be recouped.

DodgerBulls
10-05-2011, 08:20 PM
I am surprised that the OP didn't call for a petition just like what seems like people want to make when they want something.

Anyway, why would I boo a person for something like this? I mean really? It seems like you are the one who is being greedy. Should I boo every single actor/actress/singer/rapper/musicians/etc just because they are not performing?

Remember this is still just entertainment. If you let your life revolve around it, then that is your problem for letting your appetite control your reasoning.

If we are talking about McCourt, then I might let myself be a hypocrite.

llemon
10-05-2011, 08:23 PM
Unions should hold out while there is something to gain, but I don't believe they should stand on principal when it is not in the best financial interest of their members. Holding out for 2% is not worth losing a season. It isn't even worth losing a month in reality. They will never get that money back. It is in both sides best interest to get this done asap before anymore revenue is lost.

I understand standing on principal...but both sides have been adamant that this is about business. If that is true... they need to deal before they permanently lose revenue that can never be recouped.

Guess you aren't a Union guy, but more a guy that believes politicians and their rhetoric.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 08:32 PM
No I believe that businesses should be run like businesses...

Only one thing talks right now... money. The money doesn't make sense for either side to stay locked out.

I think the players deserve more than 51%, but I do not think they should lose money to win a battle of principal.

To each his own though.

DR_1
10-05-2011, 08:43 PM
For the owners to ease off 46-54 to come to terms with 50-50 was very big of them, and that without a doubt is fair. I just can't help but feel that the players should give up a little more. I mean, they've gotten the better end of the deal for quite some time now. :shrug:

True words of wisdom

llemon
10-05-2011, 08:48 PM
True words of wisdom

Really?

And what numbers back that wisdom up?

SteBO
10-05-2011, 08:54 PM
Really?

And what numbers back that wisdom up?
Close to 50-50 I should say, but how is what I said wrong? You don't agree that the players have gotten the better end of the CBA deals for a while now?

beasted86
10-05-2011, 08:59 PM
All of this is an outside opinion anyway. If we were owners and players our view would be a lot different than "what's 2%?"... um.. A: Isn't that like $85M+ per year... more than likely the entire PSD membership will make in their lifetime... so yeah, who are we to talk percentages like it's nothing.

I'd just like them both to agree on a deal that's reasonable for both that will get the seasons started.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 09:05 PM
All of this is an outside opinion anyway. If we were owners and players our view would be a lot different than "what's 2%?"... um.. A: Isn't that like $85M+ per year... more than likely the entire PSD membership will make in their lifetime... so yeah, who are we to talk percentages like it's nothing.

I'd just like them both to agree on a deal that's reasonable for both that will get the seasons started.

Yes, it is 85 million per year, which is 595 million over a 7 year deal. They will lose that amount of money in less than two months if they are locked out.

That is why I say the 2% isn't worth the fight...

llemon
10-05-2011, 09:19 PM
Close to 50-50 I should say, but how is what I said wrong? You don't agree that the players have gotten the better end of the CBA deals for a while now?

Yeah, a deal that was hammered out at some great length by the NBA negotiators.

Are you saying that because the Union was better at negotiating last contract, the negotiating Union reps should just give in to some nice sounding numbers like '50-50', and let the players that they currently represent get screwed for the next decade?

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

SteBO
10-05-2011, 09:28 PM
Yeah, a deal that was hammered out at some great length by the NBA negotiators.

Are you saying that because the Union was better at negotiating last contract, the negotiating Union reps should just give in to some nice sounding numbers like '50-50', and let the players that they currently represent get screwed for the next decade?

Sorry, that doesn't wash.
I wasn't suggesting that at all. The owners are the sole reason we're in a lockout to begin with, but that doesn't mean the players can't give in a little, which they've been openly willing to do from the get go. I'm still on the players' side in this because the owners haven't exactly been reasonable, but let's not act like the NBPA hasn't been a problem recently either.

llemon
10-05-2011, 09:39 PM
let's not act like the NBPA hasn't been a problem recently either.

That problem being what? That their members have been locked out of their jobs?

beasted86
10-05-2011, 09:44 PM
I wasn't suggesting that at all. The owners are the sole reason we're in a lockout to begin with, but that doesn't mean the players can't give in a little, which they've been openly willing to do from the get go. I'm still on the players' side in this because the owners haven't exactly been reasonable, but let's not act like the NBPA hasn't been a problem recently either.

How has the NBAPA been a problem?

All they do is play for the contracts the owners sign them to. Nobody put a gun to the owners' heads and made them sign bad contracts, or pay multiple head coaches because they keep firing them right after signing them, or told the NBA to put a team in a poor market.

I don't know when or how the billionaries were able to spin it in the media to make so many fans believe that players are getting too much money.

ManRam
10-05-2011, 10:34 PM
I haven't read a post at all in this thread, besides the OP.

Dear OP, you're overreacting :shrug:

SteBO
10-06-2011, 07:55 AM
That problem being what? That their members have been locked out of their jobs?


How has the NBAPA been a problem?

All they do is play for the contracts the owners sign them to. Nobody put a gun to the owners' heads and made them sign bad contracts, or pay multiple head coaches because they keep firing them right after signing them, or told the NBA to put a team in a poor market.

I don't know when or how the billionaries were able to spin it in the media to make so many fans believe that players are getting too much money.
You guys are missing my point. I'm talking about the negotiations as a whole now. For probably the third time in this thread alone, I'm going to say again that the owners are at fault for this whole thing. At this point, I just want a season and don't care who wins this but it's simply about millionaires and billionaires arguing over money and the NBPA are being just as petty as the owners are though I'm with them to an extent. It's silly, but you're only gripe was with one of my minor points. Overall, I'm with you and llemon. I think the owners are in the wrong here.

beasted86
10-06-2011, 09:45 AM
Well like I said earlier... there's nothing "petty" about $85M per year. Us looking from the outside as fans can't understand how they could close a 3 Billion divide, then can't come to agreement on the last 900 million (over 10 years), but that's why we aren't millionaires.

GIANTKNICK
10-06-2011, 09:51 AM
I just wanna see games. 50/50 seems fair to me. The NBA system was screwed up and the product was suffering. I just wanna see games. Please don't liken NBA players to a worker's union. Please.

How about all the people that work these arenas? I think they fall under "taking the owners side" right?

It's a lockout not a strike let's be clear. The owners forced the players too take the last deal and now they are crying its screwed up. So we are supposed to defend 30 or so billionaire who probably got rich off blood sweat tears and taxes of people like me and you. Would you let someone take advantage of your talents if you could fight for better.

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 09:58 AM
This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.

would u continue running your business if you were losing money and knew that going into the next year, you would continue losing money?
or would you do something to stop the bleeding?

Tom Stone
10-06-2011, 10:01 AM
In the grand scheme of things....athleats should have never been paid that much anyway.....serously thou....they just play basketball....They are a perfect example of why the world is messed up....Every other day I read a new article how, this NBA player just shot someone or another got caught drinking and driveing.....Dumb people with alot of money= bad combination


:cool:

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 10:05 AM
You think the players care what we think.. they say the right things to the media praise the fans but they can care less.. We basically sign their checks every time we buy a ticket or but a hotdog at the game.. The best way to show them how we feel is boycott games and let all the team take a major hit in attendance which will effect their return in revenue..

won't the owners get hit harder?
players have signed contracts and get paid regardless of ticket sales. heck, they get paid even if they're not on the court.

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 10:08 AM
Before anyone feels bad for the owners, take a look at this: http://hoopshype.com/owners.htm

I'm more pro-player than anything, but I'm selfish and value watching basketball more than anything. I could care less who wins this battle, but I understand where the players stand and support their cause. However, to boo them in public for trying to do damage control on their impending pay cuts is asinine. You support the super rich over the rich? Whats the difference? About a thousand million? Who cares what the fans think anyways, people will watch basketball regardless if the product on the floor is good. Who is the product? I think its the players. You can ask all the bandwagon fans in Miami what caused them to jump on the bandwagon in the first place. For some reason, I have a feeling their answer won't be because Micky Arison cares about them. It has something to do with that big 3. Just my two cents.

they may be billionaires but i'm willing to bet they have other business on the side that are profitable,and you have to set those aside from their NBA franchise business.

i'm pretty sure losing money is not a smart business practice. it's a business, not a charity.

likemystylez
10-06-2011, 10:13 AM
would u continue running your business if you were losing money and knew that going into the next year, you would continue losing money?
or would you do something to stop the bleeding?

I would take a look in the mirror and figure out what mistakes I am making that is causing these losses, I wouldnt punish the employees

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 10:24 AM
I would take a look in the mirror and figure out what mistakes I am making that is causing these losses, I wouldnt punish the employees

i'm not saying they didn't make mistakes with some poorly thought out contracts, but this is where they right the ship.

with the players being one of the biggest expenses for a team, if they don't give back some, the entire ship will sink.
do you want your team to file for bankruptcy because player demands have driven costs too high for them to keep doors open?

that seems to be the recurring theme with unions (most recently UAW). they don't mind biting the hand that feeds them.

likemystylez
10-06-2011, 10:24 AM
they may be billionaires but i'm willing to bet they have other business on the side that are profitable,and you have to set those aside from their NBA franchise business.

i'm pretty sure losing money is not a smart business practice. it's a business, not a charity.

missing regular season games is even a less smart business practice, and it hurts the leagues reputation and hinders future earning potential.

magichatnumber9
10-06-2011, 10:26 AM
I am in no position to judge. But this whole thing sucks. I think if a new league came along with a smarter business infrastructure I would be all for it.

likemystylez
10-06-2011, 10:27 AM
i'm not saying they didn't make mistakes with some poorly thought out contracts, but this is where they right the ship.

with the players being one of the biggest expenses for a team, if they don't give back some, the entire ship will sink.

that seems to be the recurring theme with unions (most recently UAW). they don't mind biting the hand that feeds them.

I dont think the unions are biting the hand though, the unions have gone into this negotiation all along willing to give up money. The owners have not lost a penny in these negotiations.

The common misconception is that the owners have moved from 45% to 50% so they have given up.... but in reality, they never ever ever had that to begin with... it was just their goal.

It would be like me going into the negotiation saying I want 99.5% and ive moved all the way down to 75%... Ive just given up almost 25%... when in reality- the 99.5% was just an unrealistic number, just like the owners 45%

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 10:28 AM
missing regular season games is even a less smart business practice, and it hurts the leagues reputation and hinders future earning potential.

sure, but if it means giving me an opportunity to be profitable in the future, versus continuing to lose money year after year, it seems to be a no brainer.

likemystylez
10-06-2011, 10:29 AM
I am in no position to judge. But this whole thing sucks. I think if a new league came along with a smarter business infrastructure I would be all for it.

the problem is- a lot of fans follow teams and it would be hard to see your team just vanish. I couldnt root for another team the way I root for the warriors... even if I tried... You cant choose to feel passionately

Shmontaine
10-06-2011, 10:58 AM
I would take a look in the mirror and figure out what mistakes I am making that is causing these losses, I wouldnt punish the employees

you sir, are delusional...

now the players are being punished?? please man... by that statement, the owners have been 'punished' before hand...

don't you think the owners are 'figuring out' how to fix the system that allows mid-level talent to make ridiculous money?? no, you think 'better management' is the sole fix... okay... that makes sense... teams should just not sign anyone that doesn't fit into their view of an 'appropriate' pay scale... the owners should just let all their cap space remain available until some player graces them with their presence at a more-than-fair price...

May i ask what team you're a fan of??

likemystylez
10-06-2011, 11:03 AM
you sir, are delusional...

now the players are being punished?? please man... by that statement, the owners have been 'punished' before hand...

don't you think the owners are 'figuring out' how to fix the system that allows mid-level talent to make ridiculous money?? no, you think 'better management' is the sole fix... okay... that makes sense... teams should just not sign anyone that doesn't fit into their view of an 'appropriate' pay scale... the owners should just let all their cap space remain available until some player graces them with their presence at a more-than-fair price...

May i ask what team you're a fan of??

Golden State... and yes, they have had horrible management over the last 2 decades. I do not blame the players for accepting the contracts that are presented to them. They arent holding a gun to anybodys head.

It isnt just players though, there are teams that are still paying their last 3 gms because they keep firing them, and the average team has a minimum of 2-3 head coaches still on the payroll. I understand you do what you have to do to win and if that costs money but you still want to win... thats on you. It is possible to manage a team to turn a profit, but that team might not always be succesful on the court.

Shmontaine
10-06-2011, 11:43 AM
Golden State... and yes, they have had horrible management over the last 2 decades. I do not blame the players for accepting the contracts that are presented to them. They arent holding a gun to anybodys head.

It isnt just players though, there are teams that are still paying their last 3 gms because they keep firing them, and the average team has a minimum of 2-3 head coaches still on the payroll. I understand you do what you have to do to win and if that costs money but you still want to win... thats on you. It is possible to manage a team to turn a profit, but that team might not always be succesful on the court.

It's not even 'do what you have to do to win', it's 'do what you have to do to put butts in the seats' and maintain interest for your fans, or lose them... most times, that means signing a guy more than what you would want to in order to keep/get them on your team, because losing them without a replacement would lose fan interest and support... it means getting a coach out/in in order to bring a fresh state of the game to your team and hopefully draw new interest and keep old interest that was fading...

and profit depends on interest and support... most times, that means selling to your supporters that your at least trying to improve, or be relevant and successful... of course there are outliers, but most people see new york, golden state, and toronto and think, 'hey, if they can do it, why can't everyone?' the reality is not that simple...

beasted86
10-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Golden State... and yes, they have had horrible management over the last 2 decades. I do not blame the players for accepting the contracts that are presented to them. They arent holding a gun to anybodys head.

It isnt just players though, there are teams that are still paying their last 3 gms because they keep firing them, and the average team has a minimum of 2-3 head coaches still on the payroll. I understand you do what you have to do to win and if that costs money but you still want to win... thats on you. It is possible to manage a team to turn a profit, but that team might not always be succesful on the court.

Good post

ghettosean
10-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.
I think people are forgetting a few important facts in regards to a 50-50 split:

1. There are over 500 players in the league
2. There are 30 owners
3. Aside from operating costs what else do the owners pay for

(50% of revenue divided by over 500 players compared to 50% divided by 30 owners... What sounds fair now???)

Anyway you do the math if your on the owners side. It's greed on both sides but I'm with the players on this and I'm sick of corporate greed. People need to think a little more before they start slinging mud at the NBPA I'm a season ticket holder and I'm in full support of the players and if they need to end the season to get what they want I'm good with that but obviously like most people here I hope this gets resolved quickly.

Whatever happens I do not want the players to put more money in the owners pockets enough is enough. If someone is going to sacrafice a pay check it should be the owners.

llemon
10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
most people see new york, golden state, and toronto and think, 'hey, if they can do it, why can't everyone?' the reality is not that simple...

And that would seem to be the fact the these supposedly super-savvy business people that want to become owners of NBA teams need to realize.

smith&wesson
10-06-2011, 01:52 PM
A child could see that 50-50 is a very fair deal. how can it be more fair ?

llemon
10-06-2011, 01:55 PM
A child could see that 50-50 is a very fair deal. how can it be more fair ?

That is a ridiculous statement.

ewmania
10-06-2011, 02:10 PM
For the owners to ease off 46-54 to come to terms with 50-50 was very big of them, and that without a doubt is fair. I just can't help but feel that the players should give up a little more. I mean, they've gotten the better end of the deal for quite some time now. :shrug:

maybe because they are the ones going out there dislocating they arms and knees while owners just fill out paperwork and drink budlight inside the sky box

ewmania
10-06-2011, 02:11 PM
A child could see that 50-50 is a very fair deal. how can it be more fair ?

:facepalm:

its easy to look at something that says 50/50 and expect it to be a fair deal, but if you understood how most of the system work you'll realize thats really the only thing most of the players had

Shmontaine
10-06-2011, 02:53 PM
And that would seem to be the fact the these supposedly super-savvy business people that want to become owners of NBA teams need to realize.

the owners do realize it, and they're trying to change the system because of it... it's everyone who claims that 'bad management' is the sole reason for the debacle the nba is in... i'm glad you agree, though...

llemon
10-06-2011, 02:58 PM
the owners do realize it, and they're trying to change the system because of it... it's everyone who claims that 'bad management' is the sole reason for the debacle the nba is in... i'm glad you agree, though...

So all the new owners bought into a (supposedly) broken system because they were promised the system would be 'fixed' to guarantee them a profit?

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 03:03 PM
I think people are forgetting a few important facts in regards to a 50-50 split:

1. There are over 500 players in the league
2. There are 30 owners
3. Aside from operating costs what else do the owners pay for

(50% of revenue divided by over 500 players compared to 50% divided by 30 owners... What sounds fair now???)

Anyway you do the math if your on the owners side. It's greed on both sides but I'm with the players on this and I'm sick of corporate greed. People need to think a little more before they start slinging mud at the NBPA I'm a season ticket holder and I'm in full support of the players and if they need to end the season to get what they want I'm good with that but obviously like most people here I hope this gets resolved quickly.

Whatever happens I do not want the players to put more money in the owners pockets enough is enough. If someone is going to sacrafice a pay check it should be the owners.

if everyone is so sick of corporate greed, then they should go start their own business and work for themselves and see how it works out.

corporations don't exist to give handouts. you don't like them, don't work for them and don't do business with them.

oh teh noes. they are making profit. how dare them!
#occupywallstreet

llemon
10-06-2011, 03:24 PM
if everyone is so sick of corporate greed, then they should go start their own business and work for themselves and see how it works out.

corporations don't exist to give handouts. you don't like them, don't work for them and don't do business with them.

oh teh noes. they are making profit. how dare them!
#occupywallstreet

NYTel and Nynex seemed to make a very nice profit during the 26 years I worked for them and even though I tried to do all I could to screw them from the inside.

And you are arguing counter the actual point. There is an NBA lockout because the owners (supposedly) AREN'T making a profit.

And corporations do exist to give handouts. They give them to themselves, and to politicians so laws can be passed so they can give themselves bigger handouts.

Shmontaine
10-06-2011, 03:25 PM
So all the new owners bought into a (supposedly) broken system because they were promised the system would be 'fixed' to guarantee them a profit?

yeah, that's pretty much what i believe... it would go towards explaining the ridiculous prices they paid for said teams... and, that's pretty standard for any corporate takeover, the big conglomerate purchases a company, then goes in and restructures it as they see fit.

llemon
10-06-2011, 03:29 PM
yeah, that's pretty much what i believe... it would go towards explaining the ridiculous prices they paid for said teams... and, that's pretty standard for any corporate takeover, the big conglomerate purchases a company, then goes in and restructures it as they see fit.

Only it's not a big conglomerate, and they didn't purchase a company.

Teeboy1487
10-06-2011, 03:29 PM
50-50 is not bad. I'm on the owners side on this.

llemon
10-06-2011, 03:32 PM
50-50 is not bad. I'm on the owners side on this.

LOL!!!!! And management didn't actually make that offer.

Shmontaine
10-06-2011, 03:38 PM
Only it's not a big conglomerate, and they didn't purchase a company.

tomato, tomahto... what's the difference?? they are billionaire owners and the bought a team, a business... and the fact is they own the teams and it's well within their rights as owners to renegotiate the terms of business... they've waited until the cba has expired and they are going to restructure how they see fit...

llemon
10-06-2011, 03:44 PM
tomato, tomahto... what's the difference?? they are billionaire owners and the bought a team, a business... and the fact is they own the teams and it's well within their rights as owners to renegotiate the terms of business... they've waited until the cba has expired and they are going to restructure how they see fit...

But they are not a conglomerate, as they do not have a true head of the conglomerate.

The owners can barely agree with each other. They are not true and equal partners.

This is an entirely different set of circumstances.

And that's not counting the Union, which is the actual product.

You think these owners can hire scabs?

8kobe24
10-06-2011, 03:59 PM
50-50 is a fair deal when you hear it. But none of us has seen the breakdown/deductions that come with that 50-50 split on the BRI so we cannot judge/assume it is a fair deal for the players. Kobe gets paid some 23 million/ year, but that doesn't mean that's his net income. NBA takes their cut, agent, taxes, union, etc., I would not be surprised he his net pay is somewhere around 12 million. Yeah that is still a lot of money, but you can kind of see why the players are holding out, and its because of all the NBA/Owners deductions from their pay check.

fadedmario
10-06-2011, 04:13 PM
I hope the NBA players realize they are ruining the NBA. I hate the NBA now. NFL >>> MLB >>>> NCAA >>>>> NHL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NBA. A bunch of thugs showing their true colors. Makes me sick. 2011, the year the NBA Died.. (and I've been a fan since 1985 - not a kid like most of you)

RaiderLakersA's
10-06-2011, 04:33 PM
Bah, I don't care. Not while it's football season. But the minute January roles around, this mess better be resolved!

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 04:38 PM
50-50 is a fair deal when you hear it. But none of us has seen the breakdown/deductions that come with that 50-50 split on the BRI so we cannot judge/assume it is a fair deal for the players. Kobe gets paid some 23 million/ year, but that doesn't mean that's his net income. NBA takes their cut, agent, taxes, union, etc., I would not be surprised he his net pay is somewhere around 12 million. Yeah that is still a lot of money, but you can kind of see why the players are holding out, and its because of all the NBA/Owners deductions from their pay check.

really? did you just argue that his net pay isn't as high as his gross pay and therefore 50/50 isn't fair and $25M isn't enough?
AND you threw in taxes too?

sheeeit, i should go to my boss tomorrow and tell him I need a raise because FICA and this federal tax thing is cutting too much into my paycheck.

and he should pay for the gas that goes into my tank too. 93 octane only please.

Ironman5219
10-06-2011, 05:23 PM
That makes some sense, I am starting to get sick of this folks that defend the billionaires as if the billions came out of thin air. Trust me, I work hard everyday, you don't become a billionaire by working hard....you exploit your way to billions. The "smart one" sits here protesting the players instead of protesting against ticket prices. Be a realist for once, your tea party pro-billionaire mentality is getting worn out.

Holly cow you one of those brain washed liberals aren't you? You are told to hate the tea party but have no clue who they are or what they represent. You write like a tea party member stole your girlfirend away, burned your house and rapped your dog if front of you. Seriously man grow up, if a person supports the owners why do you blanket them a tea party member? This is way more complex than that, maybe you should try thinking for yourself instead of repeating everything MSN and radical liberals tell you. (aka keep your BS political views away from sports)

Tony_Starks
10-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Didn't read through all the pages but Im going to go out on a limb and assume there was no shortage of the good ol simple minded "these guys should be grateful, they're getting paid to play a game!" philosophy.....

LOOTERX9
10-06-2011, 05:49 PM
Bah, I don't care. Not while it's football season. But the minute January roles around, this mess better be resolved!

I care, because I need sport to watch on weekdays. NBA is good to have in between sunday's NFL games.

llemon
10-06-2011, 05:52 PM
Holly cow you one of those brain washed liberals aren't you? You are told to hate the tea party but have no clue who they are or what they represent. You write like a tea party member stole your girlfirend away, burned your house and rapped your dog if front of you. Seriously man grow up, if a person supports the owners why do you blanket them a tea party member? This is way more complex than that, maybe you should try thinking for yourself instead of repeating everything MSN and radical liberals tell you. (aka keep your BS political views away from sports)

Yes, let's side with the Billionaires, who have thrived since Reagan allowed them to 'trickle' all over the working man, while the working man's plight has grown worse and worse, to where America is near the point of eliminating the middle class, leaving the Super rich, the very rich, the rich, and the poor, and the poor are the people that all three categories of the rich feel should be willing to take cutbacks in services ans assistance, because doing otherwise would be class warfare against all the rich.

That is actually the position of the rich, and there are people in this nation (other than the rich) that truly believe that is the solution.

Personally, I feel that people that believe that are either mentally challenged or the biggest fools alive.

Ironman5219
10-06-2011, 06:07 PM
Yes, let's side with the Billionaires, who have thrived since Reagan allowed them to 'trickle' all over the working man, while the working man's plight has grown worse and worse, to where America is near the point of eliminating the middle class, leaving the Super rich, the very rich, the rich, and the poor, and the poor are the people that all three categories of the rich feel should be willing to take cutbacks in services ans assistance, because doing otherwise would be class warfare against all the rich.

That is actually the position of the rich, and there are people in this nation (other than the rich) that truly believe that is the solution.

Personally, I feel that people that believe that are either mentally challenged or the biggest fools alive.

See another politcal statment. Why does everyone always have to bring in politial siding instead of bringing in common sense solutions. Its just as bad for both sides either its a Rush Limbough repeater or a Liberal repeater, people can't think on their own so they just repeat what they see or hear on TV.
Following blinding just means you are weak. I will again say keep the political BS out of this and think for a solution. ( yes in this case I thought the players sucked not taking the 50/50 deal )

llemon
10-06-2011, 06:16 PM
See another politcal statment. Why does everyone always have to bring in politial siding instead of bringing in common sense solutions. Its just as bad for both sides either its a Rush Limbough repeater or a Liberal repeater, people can't think on their own so they just repeat what they see or hear on TV.
Following blinding just means you are weak. I will again say keep the political BS out of this and think for a solution. ( yes in this case I thought the players sucked not taking the 50/50 deal )

Sorry, but that's what it boils down to.

And I assume by weak, you are implying I am neither rich nor an idiot, so I will give you that.

Oh, and I don't watch the news at all. Much too depressing for us un-rich.

RZZZA
10-06-2011, 06:26 PM
People take this stuff way too seriously. I love the NBA too but it won't kill you to have a shortened season. The good part about a CBA is that they provide stability for a prolonged length of time. But then every once in awhile you get into a "between" period where the agreement breaks down and it takes a period of time to negotiate a new one. We're in that period now, but relax, soon there'll be a new bargain and we'll have NBA for 10 years straight again.

daleja424
10-06-2011, 06:51 PM
People take this stuff way too seriously. I love the NBA too but it won't kill you to have a shortened season. The good part about a CBA is that they provide stability for a prolonged length of time. But then every once in awhile you get into a "between" period where the agreement breaks down and it takes a period of time to negotiate a new one. We're in that period now, but relax, soon there'll be a new bargain and we'll have NBA for 10 years straight again.

It might for the employees that are out of work and industry that is built based on the NBA (Think... sports bars around arena and such)

Backstabber
10-06-2011, 06:55 PM
50-50 is fair. I am as pro worker as they come, but its fair and if you turn it down you're being greedy. I know there is a lot more players than owners, but the owners have the risk. 50-50 is fair and if that's holding things up, the season will start on time.

Jamiecballer
10-06-2011, 07:14 PM
the players are greedy ****s. and yes Tony Starks they do need a wake up call. they'd rather see the league go under than make a few million dollars less over the course of their "working" lifetimes.

RZZZA
10-06-2011, 07:21 PM
the players are greedy ****s. and yes Tony Starks they do need a wake up call. they'd rather see the league go under than make a few million dollars less over the course of their "working" lifetimes.

If they agree to a paycut this time whats to stop the owners from coming back with less and less favorable splits next time? 50/50, then next CBA it'll be 55/45, then in 20 years it'll be 60/40. People like you would still be saying "You players are greedy, you make way more than me any way! Be happy with what you have!".

Badluck33
10-06-2011, 07:23 PM
I'm getting a headache.

JEDean89
10-06-2011, 07:55 PM
this isn't politics people this is the nba. everyone wants more money, but no one wants to give any up. the players didn't deserve to make 57% in the last cba, but that is not their fault, the owners were in charge of negotiating that last one. the owners have gotten a lot out of the players, right now its down to about 2%. Each side should give up one more percent and call it a deal. neither side is being greedy, but owners should make profit, and players should be compensated well. i find it hard to believe that 2 sides can't split a 4 billion dollar pie, but thats business, not politics. i dont want to hear liberal, or conservative again. this is simply people need to compensated for their work and that includes the owners.

abe_froman
10-06-2011, 08:10 PM
Close to 50-50 I should say, but how is what I said wrong? You don't agree that the players have gotten the better end of the CBA deals for a while now?

shouldnt the players get the better part of the deal though? the players(especially non stars) rely on whatever they make in the nba career to live on for their entire lives,while owners are still heads of large billion dollar corporations in which they draw income from

i think there is a disconnect with fans(by design).we are shown and reminded of what players make every day in trade idea threads,ect. but rarely do fans ever look up/know who exactly the owners of their team is and how he got his money

Jamiecballer
10-06-2011, 08:14 PM
If they agree to a paycut this time whats to stop the owners from coming back with less and less favorable splits next time? 50/50, then next CBA it'll be 55/45, then in 20 years it'll be 60/40. People like you would still be saying "You players are greedy, you make way more than me any way! Be happy with what you have!".

it's that kind of us against you mentality that is at the root of all of the troubles. they should spend less time protecting their turf and more time appreciating how god damn lucky they are. no wonder professional athletes often seem so out of touch with what it's like for the rest of us.

SteBO
10-06-2011, 08:17 PM
shouldnt the players get the better part of the deal though? the players(especially non stars) rely on whatever they make in the nba career to live on for their entire lives,while owners are still heads of large billion dollar corporations in which they draw income from

i think there is a disconnect with fans(by design).we are shown and reminded of what players make every day in trade idea threads,ect. but rarely do fans ever look up/know who exactly the owners of their team is and how he got his money
I get that side of it too. I still think the players should get the bigger share of the BRI, but if teams are losing money the way things were in the CBA deal that expired, some changes should be made. 51-49 or 52-48 in favor of the players sounds fair and reasonable to me.

abe_froman
10-06-2011, 08:21 PM
I get that side of it too. I still think the players should get the bigger share of the BRI, but if teams are losing money the way things were in the CBA deal that expired, some changes should be made. 51-49 or 52-48 in favor of the players sounds fair and reasonable to me.

i think that i should be lower than the 57%,we agree on that.just pointing out that the owners can better afford to take that hit of a club losing money much more than the players.that they make money off their club is more of a luxury than a need

llemon
10-06-2011, 08:40 PM
it's that kind of us against you mentality that is at the root of all of the troubles. they should spend less time protecting their turf and more time appreciating how god damn lucky they are. no wonder professional athletes often seem so out of touch with what it's like for the rest of us.

Shouldn't those lowlife, couldn't give a rat's hazz about anyone or anything else, fornicator's of their maternal parent owners be appreciating how lucky they are that they were born without a soul or conscience so as they have no morals and are willing to just care about themselves and not worry about the misery and sorrow that they are responsible for in the cases of so many people who aren't one/one-hundredth thousandth as fortunate as they are?

Just asking.

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 09:19 PM
shouldnt the players get the better part of the deal though? the players(especially non stars) rely on whatever they make in the nba career to live on for their entire lives,while owners are still heads of large billion dollar corporations in which they draw income from

i think there is a disconnect with fans(by design).we are shown and reminded of what players make every day in trade idea threads,ect. but rarely do fans ever look up/know who exactly the owners of their team is and how he got his money

so basically what you're saying is because they have excess money, they should give it away.

interesting...

blahblahyoutoo
10-06-2011, 09:20 PM
Shouldn't those lowlife, couldn't give a rat's hazz about anyone or anything else, fornicator's of their maternal parent owners be appreciating how lucky they are that they were born without a soul or conscience so as they have no morals and are willing to just care about themselves and not worry about the misery and sorrow that they are responsible for in the cases of so many people who aren't one/one-hundredth thousandth as fortunate as they are?

Just asking.

which owner do you know personally again?

llemon
10-06-2011, 09:30 PM
which owner do you know personally again?

As a former Union Steward (22 years), I have been fortunate enough not to know any of them personally, and yet, known them all for being the beyond belief PsOS they all are.

blahblahyoutoo
10-07-2011, 12:11 AM
As a former Union Steward (22 years), I have been fortunate enough not to know any of them personally, and yet, known them all for being the beyond belief PsOS they all are.

so what you're saying is that there is no factual basis for the bitterness and contempt you hold towards NBA team owners.

llemon
10-07-2011, 12:20 AM
so what you're saying is that there is no factual basis for the bitterness and contempt you hold towards NBA team owners.

Actually, that is not what I am saying, but as I am starting to understand your level of intelligence, I can see how that would be your understanding of my statement.

LA_Raiders
10-07-2011, 12:22 AM
**** the Players, greedy *******s

llemon
10-07-2011, 12:23 AM
**** the Players, greedy *******s

Damn them to hell.

SportsAndrew25
10-07-2011, 01:09 AM
This lockout scares the crap outta me. I fully believe at this point that we will lose the 2011-2012 season.

Tom Stone
10-07-2011, 06:06 AM
The players will offer 52 and if the lock out continues....maybe a few weeks into regular season...they will offer 51....we will get there, but it might cost a month or two of the season :(....Once the players really see the owners comment for a change, ie... (lose money)
The players will see an NHL situation comeing....everyone loses money and then they will end up getting an even smaller deal:).....Too avoid this, they will cave early....millionares can't outlast billionaires, especially when one side saves money and one loses 350 million a month....it's the biggest up hill battle Ive ever seen.

faridk89
10-07-2011, 07:03 AM
This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.

:clap: yay for the players standing up to the man and getting **** done for the middle class.....wait a bunch of guys making millions for playing basketball, nvm :facepalm:

On top of this I'm pretty sure that the average NBA player will end up losing money in the long run when comparing the money they are losing to the cut they would take and play this season :p

likemystylez
10-07-2011, 09:41 AM
:clap: yay for the players standing up to the man and getting **** done for the middle class.....wait a bunch of guys making millions for playing basketball, nvm :facepalm:

On top of this I'm pretty sure that the average NBA player will end up losing money in the long run when comparing the money they are losing to the cut they would take and play this season :p

Yeah- You're most likely right, especially when you consider that any missed games will not only cost the players their current pay checks but also hinder the general interest in the league (where ratings are on an amazing upswing over the past 2 seasons). This could cost the players checks in the short term, and cost them in terms of less total BRI over the next few years- which also hurts the owners.

Losing a season or even damaging a season over 60-90 million dollars amongst 350 millionaires and 30 billionaires with the potential to make well over 4 billion dollars seems unthinkable... and yet most people seem to think thats exactly where we are headed. (I'm hoping those are individuals who havent been following the lockout as closely as myself-you know people who have lives :facepalm: )

MylesKong
10-07-2011, 11:27 AM
I side with the billionaires because the players made out like fat cats in the last deal. Plus, I'm not jealous of the billionaires. Clearly, that's an underlying sentiment on this board.

Voodoo Alchemy
10-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.

oh yeah, that'll make them feel your pain. :facepalm:

Shmontaine
10-07-2011, 12:31 PM
There's a break-even point here for everyone... they are just pushing back and forth right now... if half the season is played, which i believe will be the case, that's somewhere 1.8-2.0 billion...

on a 50-50 split, the owners will get 1.0 billion, only 600 million less than they got last year... with potential going forward to make 2+ billion in the years to come, for an increase of at least 400 million a year going forward... over 5 years or so along with increasing revenue, they would easily overcome this half-year lockout... the players will have a much harder time to overcome a shortened season, which is why i believe the sooner the players settle on 50-50 split, the better for them...



the owners will be fine, and this knowledge of future BRI revenue and the fact that players careers are much much shorter than owner tenure-ship, is why IMO the players will agree to the what the owners want... the players are short term, and they lose much much more in the short term with a shortened season than the owners would, simply because the owners are long-term.. and whatever losses the owners incur over the next 5 years or whatever from this season, as long as they get the BRI where they want, in 10-20 years they will be making bank...

llemon
10-07-2011, 12:36 PM
:clap: yay for the players standing up to the man and getting **** done for the middle class.....wait a bunch of guys making millions for playing basketball, nvm :facepalm:

On top of this I'm pretty sure that the average NBA player will end up losing money in the long run when comparing the money they are losing to the cut they would take and play this season :p

That is where principle comes in.

Just like all the players before them, they are not only bargaining for themselves, but for the future players of the NBA.

I know you may not be able to perceive of such a concept.

Trace
10-07-2011, 12:45 PM
That makes some sense, I am starting to get sick of this folks that defend the billionaires as if the billions came out of thin air. Trust me, I work hard everyday, you don't become a billionaire by working hard....you exploit your way to billions. The "smart one" sits here protesting the players instead of protesting against ticket prices. Be a realist for once, your tea party pro-billionaire mentality is getting worn out.

Billionaires do not exploit people.

They're either innovative or smart. Most of the billionaires out there revolutionized our generation.

i.e Google, Facebook, Apple, Blackberry etc

The financial institutions? Blame your government. Your government allowed this to happen.

Trace
10-07-2011, 12:46 PM
That is where principle comes in.

Just like all the players before them, they are not only bargaining for themselves, but for the future players of the NBA.

I know you may not be able to perceive of such a concept.

These benefits are not sustainable and contribute further financial instability.

llemon
10-07-2011, 12:49 PM
These benefits are not sustainable.

Because.........?

llemon
10-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Billionaires do not exploit people.

They're either innovative or smart. Most of the billionaires out there revolutionized our generation.

i.e Google, Facebook, Apple, Blackberry etc

The financial institutions? Blame your government. Your government allowed this to happen.

Is that part of your comedy tour, Schecky?

Now tell us the part about how the billionaires bought our government.

Tony_Starks
10-07-2011, 12:53 PM
50-50 looks fair on the surface but what people don't know is each percentage point is worth about $40milli. So to drop from 57 to 50 you're talking about the players giving up about $280milli. Multiply that over 10 years and factor in that the revenue is expected to grow quite a bit over the next few years when the nba gets its new TV deal and it amounts to the owners getting a HUGE come up at the players expense. Those 2 or 3 points the players are fighting for seem like nothing to us but its a big deal long term.

It also shows you how ridiculous the owners proposal of 46% was in the first place and that they never intended to even negotiate. They knew there was no way in hell the players would take that, then you wait until the 11th hour and finally go to 50-50 and play the media PR game like "look at what big concessions we made!"

Trace
10-07-2011, 12:59 PM
Because.........?

In almost industry that is considered a monopoly, union workers have the leverage during CBA talks because there aren't any competing businesses to quell their demands.

Just look at the obscene pay scale in some of America's oldest unions and the amount of money such industries earn a year. I'm willing to bet most of these industries went bankrupt, were bailed out or barely getting by.

Why do you think the NBA had to force a salary ceiling during the 1998 CBA and want to further decrease it now?

It's not because the owners are greedy, it's because they know it's unsustainable for the next few decades or so. And given the current economic atmosphere, it's quite understandable.

llemon
10-07-2011, 01:05 PM
In almost industry that is considered a monopoly, union workers have the leverage during CBA talks because there aren't any competing businesses to quell their demands.

Just look at the obscene pay scale in some of America's oldest unions and the amount of money such industries earn a year. I'm willing to bet most of these industries went bankrupt, were bailed out or barely getting by.

Why do you think the NBA had to force a salary ceiling during the 1998 CBA and want to further decrease it now?

It's not because the owners are greedy, it's because they know it's unsustainable for the next few decades or so. And given the current economic atmosphere, it's quite understandable.

Bull-owney

Trace
10-07-2011, 02:24 PM
Bull-owney

:rolleyes:

Typical Partisan.

llemon
10-07-2011, 02:29 PM
:rolleyes:

Typical Partisan.

No. Typical Paisan

blahblahyoutoo
10-07-2011, 09:40 PM
Bull-owney

excellent rebuttal.

llemon
10-07-2011, 10:09 PM
excellent rebuttal.

Thank you.

Cosmic_Canon
10-08-2011, 12:42 AM
50-50 looks fair on the surface but what people don't know is each percentage point is worth about $40milli. So to drop from 57 to 50 you're talking about the players giving up about $280milli. Multiply that over 10 years and factor in that the revenue is expected to grow quite a bit over the next few years when the nba gets its new TV deal and it amounts to the owners getting a HUGE come up at the players expense. Those 2 or 3 points the players are fighting for seem like nothing to us but its a big deal long term.

It also shows you how ridiculous the owners proposal of 46% was in the first place and that they never intended to even negotiate. They knew there was no way in hell the players would take that, then you wait until the 11th hour and finally go to 50-50 and play the media PR game like "look at what big concessions we made!"

:clap:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: @ those who think the players are greedy for refusing 50/50

Let's not forget, 50/50 BRI is not 50/50 for ALL OF NBA REVENUE.
BRI leaves out 3% of total revenue

That 3% is 300+ million in expenses deducted first.
So instead of players getting 50/50, it's more like 53/47 in the owners favor.
So in layman's terms, the owners are splitting a $100 bill down the middle, but that's AFTER they take 20$ out of the $100 bill.


Combined that, with the fact that players salaries would decrease by 7%, in a SOARING PRODUCT(2011 revenue was the highest since '98).

likemystylez
10-08-2011, 01:30 AM
:clap:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: @ those who think the players are greedy for refusing 50/50

Let's not forget, 50/50 BRI is not 50/50 for ALL OF NBA REVENUE.
BRI leaves out 3% of total revenue

That 3% is 300+ million in expenses deducted first.
So instead of players getting 50/50, it's more like 53/47 in the owners favor.
So in layman's terms, the owners are splitting a $100 bill down the middle, but that's AFTER they take 20$ out of the $100 bill.

Combined that, with the fact that players salaries would decrease by 7%, in a SOARING PRODUCT(2011 revenue was the highest since '98).


I do agree with you that BRI is not the only source of income for the league... but i got lost at


well if 300+ million is going to expenses- then its not like its going in the owners pockets.

Its like they have a 100 dollar bill, there are necesary taxes paid and both sides split the 80 dollars remaining.

If it is going towards expenses- I dont follow how thats the equivalent of a 53-47 split?... maybe a 47-47 split with 6 going to expenses??

likemystylez
10-08-2011, 01:33 AM
and their salarys would not decrease 7%, it would decrease by 7/57 (12.28%). See it would be 7% if they were making 100% of BRI

knicksfan42
10-08-2011, 01:58 AM
This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.

Hahahahahaha funny read. The only mentality killing the middle class is the pro big government Democratic mentality. Subsidies for big corporations + Bailouts for big corporations + regulations making it nearly impossible to start up a small business = what's killing the middle class. And with the President (Barack Obama) who received the largest campaign contribution ever from Wall Street things don't look like they are going to change.

knicksfan42
10-08-2011, 02:01 AM
In almost industry that is considered a monopoly, union workers have the leverage during CBA talks because there aren't any competing businesses to quell their demands.

Just look at the obscene pay scale in some of America's oldest unions and the amount of money such industries earn a year. I'm willing to bet most of these industries went bankrupt, were bailed out or barely getting by.

Why do you think the NBA had to force a salary ceiling during the 1998 CBA and want to further decrease it now?

It's not because the owners are greedy, it's because they know it's unsustainable for the next few decades or so. And given the current economic atmosphere, it's quite understandable.

:clap::clap::clap:

llemon
10-08-2011, 11:21 AM
Hahahahahaha funny read. The only mentality killing the middle class is the pro big government Democratic mentality. Subsidies for big corporations + Bailouts for big corporations + regulations making it nearly impossible to start up a small business = what's killing the middle class. And with the President (Barack Obama) who received the largest campaign contribution ever from Wall Street things don't look like they are going to change.

Bush began the bailouts, and the tax cuts for the rich.

Pierzynski4Prez
10-08-2011, 11:53 AM
The owners are the reason the league is under a lockout, not the players. No profession anywhere has had ownership ask it's workers to take a 20% paycut without some form of backlash or resistance... so yes, the fault for the lockout is on the owners.

And I'm sure the arena workers are on the side of "when is my next paycheck coming?", not the owners or players who are billionaires and millionaires.

Umm, yes, actually that's how it works.

If I work for a company that is losing millions upon millions, the 1st thing they do is let people go or drop salary. It's happened to my wife, having to give up salary, and at my old company they laid off people. It happens everywhere dude. I don't know what reality you live in, but the employees get no say. At the end of the day the Owners OWN the company and its their decision, the rest of us work for them.

Yes, there is backlash, you feel pissed, but you have absolutely no chance to negotiate this deal with your company. At the end of the day the owners own these franchises and should hold more control. If the players don't like it, they can find other jobs, like the rest of us would have to. Quite simple.

llemon
10-08-2011, 12:21 PM
Umm, yes, actually that's how it works.

If I work for a company that is losing millions upon millions, the 1st thing they do is let people go or drop salary. It's happened to my wife, having to give up salary, and at my old company they laid off people. It happens everywhere dude. I don't know what reality you live in, but the employees get no say. At the end of the day the Owners OWN the company and its their decision, the rest of us work for them.

Yes, there is backlash, you feel pissed, but you have absolutely no chance to negotiate this deal with your company. At the end of the day the owners own these franchises and should hold more control. If the players don't like it, they can find other jobs, like the rest of us would have to. Quite simple.

Except the NBA ain't losing money.

Phenomenonsense
10-08-2011, 12:26 PM
Except the NBA ain't losing money.

Except "20+ teams" are "losing" money. We can't know that they aren't losing money. As a whole the NBA is losing money as far as anyone knows.

Trace
10-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Except the NBA ain't losing money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/07/06/audited-numbers-show-nba-lost-over-1-5b-over-last-five-years/


Before one begins to say that this all is skewed toward ownership, looking at the Forbes numbers that detail the 2009-10 season show that while some clubs are running in the red, some, such as the Knicks and Bulls are profiting handsomely.

llemon
10-08-2011, 12:38 PM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/07/06/audited-numbers-show-nba-lost-over-1-5b-over-last-five-years/

Sorry, ain't buying it.

mzgrizz
10-08-2011, 12:40 PM
I do agree with you that BRI is not the only source of income for the league... but i got lost at


well if 300+ million is going to expenses- then its not like its going in the owners pockets.

Its like they have a 100 dollar bill, there are necesary taxes paid and both sides split the 80 dollars remaining.

If it is going towards expenses- I dont follow how thats the equivalent of a 53-47 split?... maybe a 47-47 split with 6 going to expenses??

Well said

Trace
10-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Sorry, ain't buying it.

Would be awesome to get an interview from one of the league's accountants.

llemon
10-08-2011, 01:13 PM
Would be awesome to get an interview from one of the league's accountants.

Why?

Tony_Starks
10-08-2011, 02:05 PM
At this point I hope everyone can at least see and agree that its obvious the owners had no intention of actually negotiating until the we started missing games and the players started missing checks. That in itself is a slap in the face to the fans and inexcusable, even IF you believe their claims......

Jamiecballer
10-08-2011, 02:16 PM
Shouldn't those lowlife, couldn't give a rat's hazz about anyone or anything else, fornicator's of their maternal parent owners be appreciating how lucky they are that they were born without a soul or conscience so as they have no morals and are willing to just care about themselves and not worry about the misery and sorrow that they are responsible for in the cases of so many people who aren't one/one-hundredth thousandth as fortunate as they are?

Just asking.

if you can rephrase this in a way that is becomes readable, or even better, relevant to the discussion i'd be more than happy to respond.

llemon
10-08-2011, 02:21 PM
if you can rephrase this in a way that is becomes readable, or even better, relevant to the discussion i'd be more than happy to respond.

Phrased exactly as I meant it to be.

Don't care if you respond or not.

Trace
10-08-2011, 03:10 PM
Why?

Well, if it was an anonymous interview, we would know whether the numbers are doctored or not.

WadeKobe
10-08-2011, 03:33 PM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.

This is a disappointing post, as it is more comfortable with a monopoly punishing the consumer and controlling the market than it is with a greedy union trying to do the same.

Aren't they both wrong?

This isn't the NFL lockout where both sides are greedy bastards arguing over a big pot of money. This is a sport where owners have made bad business decisions by creating a product with low demand (NBA team) in cities where the market is small, then refused to revenue share between themselves.

Instead, they want to put a hard cap on, which will create a lesser product, and the lemmings we call fans will eat it up because there is nothing else on the market.

What the owners are doing is saying "We opened up a coffee shop in a part of town where not that many people like coffee. Therefore, we cannot afford to keep paying $10 per bag of beans, so we are only going to buy $3 bags of beans. But, since there are no other coffee shops in town, our customers will have to keep coming to us to pay $15 per bag of coffee beans."

Would you ever stand for that as a customer? Why should you with the NBA?

The owners are trying to cheat the fans and offer them a lesser product at the same price. The players are trying to pretend nothing is wrong, because with more teams there are more jobs.

I've said it a million times - contraction is the only answer. In real life you don't get bailed out when you open up a dumb business. You go bankrupt. This is what we should allow the bad teams to do.

Why is there a team in Sacramento?
Why are there two teams in LA? There aren't even two teams in NY!
Why is there a team in Orlando?
Why is there a team in Memphis?
Charlotte?
New Orleans?
Toronto?


Scrap all of those teams, and introduce revenue sharing between the owners, and slash the revenue sharing between players/owners at a 50/50.

That's a start. See what happens.

llemon
10-08-2011, 05:18 PM
Well, if it was an anonymous interview, we would know whether the numbers are doctored or not.

Still wouldn't expect the truth. The accountant would be to afraid that he'd say something that made him recognizable. And then he'd be killed.

Rego247
10-08-2011, 05:46 PM
This is a disappointing post, as it is more comfortable with a monopoly punishing the consumer and controlling the market than it is with a greedy union trying to do the same.

Aren't they both wrong?

This isn't the NFL lockout where both sides are greedy bastards arguing over a big pot of money. This is a sport where owners have made bad business decisions by creating a product with low demand (NBA team) in cities where the market is small, then refused to revenue share between themselves.

Instead, they want to put a hard cap on, which will create a lesser product, and the lemmings we call fans will eat it up because there is nothing else on the market.

What the owners are doing is saying "We opened up a coffee shop in a part of town where not that many people like coffee. Therefore, we cannot afford to keep paying $10 per bag of beans, so we are only going to buy $3 bags of beans. But, since there are no other coffee shops in town, our customers will have to keep coming to us to pay $15 per bag of coffee beans."

Would you ever stand for that as a customer? Why should you with the NBA?

The owners are trying to cheat the fans and offer them a lesser product at the same price. The players are trying to pretend nothing is wrong, because with more teams there are more jobs.

I've said it a million times - contraction is the only answer. In real life you don't get bailed out when you open up a dumb business. You go bankrupt. This is what we should allow the bad teams to do.

Why is there a team in Sacramento?
Why are there two teams in LA? There aren't even two teams in NY!
Why is there a team in Orlando?
Why is there a team in Memphis?
Charlotte?
New Orleans?
Toronto?


Scrap all of those teams, and introduce revenue sharing between the owners, and slash the revenue sharing between players/owners at a 50/50.

That's a start. See what happens.

:facepalm: Because unlike some other teams in the league Toronto actually makes money.

WadeKobe
10-08-2011, 08:37 PM
:facepalm: Because unlike some other teams in the league Toronto actually makes money.

8 Teams made money. You positive Toronto is one of those teams? If they are, fine. Keep them and get rid of one of the other small-market teams that loses money. My point stands.

Rego247
10-08-2011, 11:25 PM
8 Teams made money. You positive Toronto is one of those teams? If they are, fine. Keep them and get rid of one of the other small-market teams that loses money. My point stands.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/31941/digging-deep-to-share-revenue


It’s time for the rich teams to kick in. But how much, and by what formula?

Although the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls, Celtics and Raptors are expected to be the biggest paying teams, all eyes turn to Lakers owner Jerry Buss, who -- in some proposals under consideration -- would be asked to share as much as $50 million next season alone.


Do you really think they would ask us to share revenue if we hadn't generated any revenue? Come on.

I also LOL at your assertion that Toronto is somehow a small market. But that's a debate for another thread.

blahblahyoutoo
10-09-2011, 12:27 AM
Bush began the bailouts, and the tax cuts for the rich.

shouldn't you be occupying wall st right now?

llemon
10-09-2011, 12:28 AM
shouldn't you be occupying wall st right now?

Too far a commute.

iggypop123
10-09-2011, 02:03 AM
stern forced an offer of a concept not even a real offer of 50 50 yet, it was rejected and countered immediately, even though stern didnt even have the owners support behind it. yahoo says some owners dont even want to go beyond 48%bri. we have lost the first month of the season guaranteed for sure.
funny to see politics injected to this discussion. the capitalist rich owners right now are basically begging for socialism!

Wade>You
10-09-2011, 02:15 AM
stern forced an offer of a concept not even a real offer of 50 50 yet, it was rejected and countered immediately, even though stern didnt even have the owners support behind it. yahoo says some owners dont even want to go beyond 48%bri. we have lost the first month of the season guaranteed for sure.
funny to see politics injected to this discussion. the capitalist rich owners right now are basically begging for socialism!

There are good owners out there. Can anyone imagine Jerry Buss, Mickey Arison, James Dolan, Mark Cuban, etc... being happy with the recent CBAs that prevent them from building/keeping their championship teams? Unlike the other owners, these owners want to win first.

SteBO
10-09-2011, 09:36 AM
There are good owners out there. Can anyone imagine Jerry Buss, Mickey Arison, James Dolan, Mark Cuban, etc... being happy with the recent CBAs that prevent them from building/keeping their championship teams? Unlike the other owners, these owners want to win first.
Which is why those guys for the most part have been quiet and probably disagree with the majority. But you have to realize that from a money standpoint, some of those guys get theirs from elsewhere(Arison owns a cruiseline and Cuban owns HDNet). I'd like to hear those guys open their mouths and get in on the discussion more for the reasons you stated. It might do wonders, but who knows at this point.

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 11:01 AM
what a brilliant poster we have here...


:clap:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: @ those who think the players are greedy for refusing 50/50

Let's not forget, 50/50 BRI is not 50/50 for ALL OF NBA REVENUE.
BRI leaves out 3% of total revenue

That 3% is 300+ million in expenses deducted first.

I don't know what you're talking about with this 3% of BRI deducted first... do you have any links??? besides that, your 3% isn't even remotely close to 300+ mill as you claim.. each % of BRI is 36 Million, so at most, your 3% is 108 Million, and that's with the reality of this 3% deduction of BRI before the split, which is in doubt... a far far cry from your 300+ million... use a calculator next time...


So instead of players getting 50/50, it's more like 53/47 in the owners favor.
So in layman's terms, the owners are splitting a $100 bill down the middle, but that's AFTER they take 20$ out of the $100 bill.


provided the league does take out 3% of BRI, i would imagine it goes towards NBA league offices and employees.. and i would doubt that the owners get any share of that, or that it goes towards specific nba team expenses... but again, without links, i don't really believe the deduction is there at all..

in layman's terms, you would take $3 out of a $100, not $20... and neither side would get that 3%... again, 3% of 100 isn't 20, calculators are your friend here...


Combined that, with the fact that players salaries would decrease by 7%, in a SOARING PRODUCT(2011 revenue was the highest since '98).


highest revenue since '98??... where have you been, man? that's completely wrong. since nba player salaries are a percentage of league revenue (which has only decreased over time), how can salaries go up while revenue went down through the 2000's??? it can't, nice try..

everything you said is garbage...


I do agree with you that BRI is not the only source of income for the league... but i got lost at


well if 300+ million is going to expenses- then its not like its going in the owners pockets.

Its like they have a 100 dollar bill, there are necesary taxes paid and both sides split the 80 dollars remaining.

If it is going towards expenses- I dont follow how thats the equivalent of a 53-47 split?... maybe a 47-47 split with 6 going to expenses??

he's clueless... don't bother...

Cosmic_Canon
10-10-2011, 02:05 PM
I don't know what you're talking about with this 3% of BRI deducted first... do you have any links??? besides that, your 3% isn't even remotely close to 300+ mill as you claim.. each % of BRI is 36 Million, so at most, your 3% is 108 Million, and that's with the reality of this 3% deduction of BRI before the split, which is in doubt... a far far cry from your 300+ million... use a calculator next time...

"After the owners offered the players a 50-50 split of revenues that effectively was a 47-percent share with about $350 million in expenses deducted first, the two sides met in small groups in the hallway while each side's larger group caucused in separate rooms. As the hour grew late, the tension was rising and becoming palpable. Both sides recognized it was time to try everything possible to make a deal."
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15687299/with-nearly-all-of-8-billion-gap-closed-season-can-be-saved



provided the league does take out 3% of BRI, i would imagine it goes towards NBA league offices and employees.. and i would doubt that the owners get any share of that, or that it goes towards specific nba team expenses... but again, without links, i don't really believe the deduction is there at all..


stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
RT @JoSHR00021: This is so confusing to normal not smart people like me, why call it 50/50 if its not? -- this is a game of perception.
4 Oct

stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
Whats not in BRI --- 60% of from arena signage - 60% of from luxury suites - 50% - 55% of naming rights ----- a huge chunk of $ off the top.
4 Oct

stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
A couple of comments... a 50-50 split of BRI amounts to about 47% of all revenue, as BRI excludes a percentage of some revenues.
4 Oct

RicBucher Ric Bucher(his twitter)
FWIW: 50-50 BRI split sounds fair because splitting anything 50-50 sounds fair. In this case, it's 50-50 of what owners deem to share.

RicBucher Ric Bucher(his twitter)
Example: Let's split a pizza. I'll split four slices with you, 50-50. The other 12 slices? Not pizza. Bruschetta. I keep the bruschetta.



highest revenue since '98??... where have you been, man? that's completely wrong. since nba player salaries are a percentage of league revenue (which has only decreased over time), how can salaries go up while revenue went down through the 2000's??? it can't, nice try..

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/07/us/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1-blog480.jpg

Yes, I AM WRONG about that. However, given the Heat and the number of decent exciting(by exciting, I mean teams, that the casual NBA fan will watch) teams(Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Bulls), it's safe to say the league will grow greatly over the next 5 years EASILY.

Trace
10-10-2011, 03:02 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/07/us/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1-blog480.jpg

Yes, I AM WRONG about that. However, given the Heat and the number of decent exciting(by exciting, I mean teams, that the casual NBA fan will watch) teams(Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Bulls), it's safe to say the league will grow greatly over the next 5 years EASILY.

Profit=Revenue-Expenses

Your chart shows profit decreasing not increasing. It's proof that the current CBA is not sustainable, hence the push for lower salaries. As well, I'm willing to bet that the operating income is EBIT.

Shmontaine
10-10-2011, 04:20 PM
"After the owners offered the players a 50-50 split of revenues that effectively was a 47-percent share with about $350 million in expenses deducted first, the two sides met in small groups in the hallway while each side's larger group caucused in separate rooms. As the hour grew late, the tension was rising and becoming palpable. Both sides recognized it was time to try everything possible to make a deal."
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15687299/with-nearly-all-of-8-billion-gap-closed-season-can-be-saved



stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
RT @JoSHR00021: This is so confusing to normal not smart people like me, why call it 50/50 if its not? -- this is a game of perception.
4 Oct

stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
Whats not in BRI --- 60% of from arena signage - 60% of from luxury suites - 50% - 55% of naming rights ----- a huge chunk of $ off the top.
4 Oct

stevekylerNBA Steve Kyler(his twitter)
A couple of comments... a 50-50 split of BRI amounts to about 47% of all revenue, as BRI excludes a percentage of some revenues.
4 Oct

RicBucher Ric Bucher(his twitter)
FWIW: 50-50 BRI split sounds fair because splitting anything 50-50 sounds fair. In this case, it's 50-50 of what owners deem to share.

RicBucher Ric Bucher(his twitter)
Example: Let's split a pizza. I'll split four slices with you, 50-50. The other 12 slices? Not pizza. Bruschetta. I keep the bruschetta.


it's interesting, thanks for sharing... but the math still doesn't make sense to me... even in the article the guy claims that 1% of BRI is 40 mill. how does 3% equate to 350Mill?? the writer contradicts himself..

it also doesn't say where the money goes... do the owners keep it??

how do the league offices and employees get paid... i would assume out of BRI...

overall nice, but i have more questions now after seeing your post...

Cosmic_Canon
10-10-2011, 05:24 PM
Profit=Revenue-Expenses

Your chart shows profit decreasing not increasing. It's proof that the current CBA is not sustainable, hence the push for lower salaries. As well, I'm willing to bet that the operating income is EBIT.

True
At the end of the day, we do not know how much the NBA's LOSING TEAMS(the Nets, Wizards of the world) are losing(since the owners still haven't released their books), so the chart is as good as a estimate we'll get. I think it's best for the players(long-run) to take the 51.5% deal, even though it's a 6.5% decrease, because a much worse deal will be offered in 2012(assuming the season is cancelled for this year).

llemon
10-10-2011, 05:35 PM
True
At the end of the day, we do not know how much the NBA's LOSING TEAMS(the Nets, Wizards of the world) are losing(since the owners still haven't released their books), so the chart is as good as a estimate we'll get. I think it's best for the players(long-run) to take the 51.5% deal, even though it's a 6.5% decrease, because a much worse deal will be offered in 2012(assuming the season is cancelled for this year).

Not trying to nitpick, but it is a 5.5% decrease.

And though the Nets have been losing money, do you have any idea how much money purchasing the Nets made for Ratner?

milominderbinde
10-10-2011, 05:37 PM
There are good owners out there. Can anyone imagine Jerry Buss, Mickey Arison, James Dolan, Mark Cuban, etc... being happy with the recent CBAs that prevent them from building/keeping their championship teams? Unlike the other owners, these owners want to win first.

Did you actually use the phrase "good owner" in proximity to "James Dolan"?:speechless:

llemon
10-10-2011, 05:46 PM
Did you actually use the phrase "good owner" in proximity to "James Dolan"?:speechless:

Maybe he meant 'profitable owner'.

Cosmic_Canon
10-10-2011, 06:32 PM
it's interesting, thanks for sharing... but the math still doesn't make sense to me... even in the article the guy claims that 1% of BRI is 40 mill. how does 3% equate to 350Mill?? the writer contradicts himself..

it also doesn't say where the money goes... do the owners keep it??

how do the league offices and employees get paid... i would assume out of BRI...

overall nice, but i have more questions now after seeing your post...

I'm assuming the 350 mil is for the pen pushers and small time workers(league offices, bills, workers during games, and Stern's salary. Basically everyone but the owners and players)

Also, keep in mind, the league's books ARE STILL PRIVATE. So we don't have the real "gains and losses" of the NBA. However, the one concrete fact in all of this, is that BRI is 97% of the league's revenue(I'm basing this off of Bucher and Kyler's tweets and the CBS article by Berger). The following people listed, are credible people as you and others know.

Bottom line is, the 350 mil is the expenses taken out first by the owners.
The 3% which is not included in the BRI, is the 60% of arena signage and luxury suites; and the 50 - 55% of naming rights.

Trace
10-10-2011, 09:25 PM
Not trying to nitpick, but it is a 5.5% decrease.

And though the Nets have been losing money, do you have any idea how much money purchasing the Nets made for Ratner?

I doubt it.

Forest City had losses triple that of the Nets, I doubt Ratner was using company expenses (The Nets) to offset his losses.

The only person Ratner siphoned off of was probably Prokhorov. Without, Prokhorov, Ratner would have gone bankrupt.

llemon
10-10-2011, 09:33 PM
I doubt it.

Forest City had losses triple that of the Nets, I doubt Ratner was using company expenses (The Nets) to offset his losses.

The only person Ratner siphoned off of was probably Prokhorov. Without, Prokhorov, Ratner would have gone bankrupt.

Has the money come in from the Brooklyn Yards Project yet?

beasted86
10-10-2011, 09:35 PM
True
At the end of the day, we do not know how much the NBA's LOSING TEAMS(the Nets, Wizards of the world) are losing(since the owners still haven't released their books), so the chart is as good as a estimate we'll get. I think it's best for the players(long-run) to take the 51.5% deal, even though it's a 6.5% decrease, because a much worse deal will be offered in 2012(assuming the season is cancelled for this year).

This article has actual records of the Nets from 2003-2006 showing how it's possible to hide profits:
http://deadspin.com/5816870/

Trace
10-10-2011, 09:41 PM
Has the money come in from the Brooklyn Yards Project yet?

Without Prokhorov, Ratner wouldn't have been able to raise adequate bonds to save the project which would have resulted in bankruptcy.

Trace
10-10-2011, 09:46 PM
This article has actual records of the Nets from 2003-2006 showing how it's possible to hide profits:
http://deadspin.com/5816870/

The NBA/NBPA's statements do not include amortization of assets, which is what this whole thing is about really.

llemon
10-10-2011, 09:48 PM
Without Prokhorov, Ratner wouldn't have been able to raise adequate bonds to save the project which would have resulted in bankruptcy.

Don't know if I believe that either.

That would mean Proky had Ratner over a barrel, and let him off VERY easy.

DR_1
10-10-2011, 09:49 PM
This is the dumbest argument I have ever seen. Great job NBA.

WadeKobe
10-10-2011, 09:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/31941/digging-deep-to-share-revenue




Do you really think they would ask us to share revenue if we hadn't generated any revenue? Come on.

I also LOL at your assertion that Toronto is somehow a small market. But that's a debate for another thread.

Okay, I was wrong. Great. Calm down. No need to defend your team. I was basically targeting expansion teams, since expansion is the big problem. Like I said in my last post, fine. Keep Toronto and take away another team. I seriously don't care. You can defend your team with a little less vitriol.

Shmontaine
10-11-2011, 12:47 PM
Okay, I was wrong. Great. Calm down. No need to defend your team. I was basically targeting expansion teams, since expansion is the big problem. Like I said in my last post, fine. Keep Toronto and take away another team. I seriously don't care. You can defend your team with a little less vitriol.

expansion is the big problem??? there have been 3 expansion teams in the last 20 years... and one of them is the few making any money... i don't know how that it equates to being the big problem...

WadeKobe
10-11-2011, 03:57 PM
expansion is the big problem??? there have been 3 expansion teams in the last 20 years... and one of them is the few making any money... i don't know how that it equates to being the big problem...

7 in the last 25.And only 2 of those teams are actually making any money. Maybe only one (I don't know Miami's financial situation). Regardless, Miami isn't on the "hard cap" bandwagon, obviously.

That's the problem with arbitrary endpoints. To not think that expansion is the problem is to completely miss what's going on.

In a 22-team league there are nowhere near as many #1 players as their are in a 30-team league. Players who are #1 players in a 30-team league can become #2 players in a 22-team league. So, players not worth their weight in gold are being given big contracts (Arenas/Lewis) because they are so valuable in a league which is stretched thin on talent.

Not to mention, a hard-cap would be a big problem in a 22-team league, because it wouldn't cut the level of competition so drastically and cheat the fans. Plus, it wouldn't be necessary, because players wouldn't be able to command so much money, as the market would not be as open.

To act as though expansion isn't a huge problem is to completely miss what's going on in the NBA.

Shmontaine
10-11-2011, 04:49 PM
7 in the last 25.And only 2 of those teams are actually making any money. Maybe only one (I don't know Miami's financial situation). Regardless, Miami isn't on the "hard cap" bandwagon, obviously.

That's the problem with arbitrary endpoints. To not think that expansion is the problem is to completely miss what's going on.

In a 22-team league there are nowhere near as many #1 players as their are in a 30-team league. Players who are #1 players in a 30-team league can become #2 players in a 22-team league. So, players not worth their weight in gold are being given big contracts (Arenas/Lewis) because they are so valuable in a league which is stretched thin on talent.

Not to mention, a hard-cap would be a big problem in a 22-team league, because it wouldn't cut the level of competition so drastically and cheat the fans. Plus, it wouldn't be necessary, because players wouldn't be able to command so much money, as the market would not be as open.

To act as though expansion isn't a huge problem is to completely miss what's going on in the NBA.

so now we're letting the level of talent dictate how many teams there are???

just because there's not 30 legit #1 guys in the league now shouldn't lead to contraction IMO... the league 20-25 years ago had much deeper talent across the board... maybe that's why the league expanded when it did... would it be more exciting? sure... would it make as much money as the league does now? i don't think so...

blahblahyoutoo
10-11-2011, 05:02 PM
not to mention that the talent pool is ever growing because the game is more global now.

Big2win
10-11-2011, 05:49 PM
Us fans need to do something. We need to force them to play. We need for them to feel our pain. Us as NBA fans are a sorted lot. A group of marginalized roundball lovers. What the players are doing isn't right, and downright greedy. But maybe they don't know what it is that they do. So I propose organizing as fans and making the players feel it. Nothing outrageous. Wait, scratched that. Nothing illegal. I propose if you are a fan of basketball and miss the NBA you boo the hell out of a player if you see him in public. And get as many people with you to do the same.

I think there should a facebook page dedicated to this. Twitter # things and all. But first let's see how you feel:

Oops forgot the poll.

I think a quick lesson in labor law is necessary before you make comments like this. Its called a lockout not a strike. If this was a strike, your argument would have a little relevance in this situation because thats when workers walk out on their jobs seeking better pay, conditions etc. which is clearly not the case. The owners locked them out because in a CBA (collective bargaining agreement) when it expires, the employer traditionally operates off of the previous agreement until a new one is reached and ratified. In order to be free from their prior obligations(systems, BRI, etc) in the last contract, a lockout is the method employers use. It is not the fault of the players. I don't know one American that will take a paycut so their bosses can take home more of a profit and you wouldn't either. Instead of booing the players, you should write letters to the owners and let them know that the fans are behind the people who provide the talent and entertainment on the court and not the ones who pull all of these political strings to acumulate the wealth off of the backs of the players. Nobody buys a jersey with Mark Cuban or James Dolan's name on the back. Do the knowledge before organizing people to do counterproductive actions that puts pressure on the wrong side.

WadeKobe
10-11-2011, 06:34 PM
so now we're letting the level of talent dictate how many teams there are???

just because there's not 30 legit #1 guys in the league now shouldn't lead to contraction IMO... the league 20-25 years ago had much deeper talent across the board... maybe that's why the league expanded when it did... would it be more exciting? sure... would it make as much money as the league does now? i don't think so...

:facepalm: The league should offer a lesser product so they can make more money off of lemming fans? Give me a break.

You failed to put 2 and 2 together, bro. If there are not 30 legit #1 guys, then non-legit guys are going to get paid too much money, by teams who cannot afford to pay that money, leading to the problem we ahve now.

The problem we have is one of over-expansion. Teams cannot keep exciting, competitive teams in their cities in the current league. And the NBA is not in high demand like it had been in years past.

Opening new businesses that cannot thrive is called "a bad business decision." In the real world, those businesses go out of business and no one sheds a tear. But we want to back NBA owners who make the same poor decision? Why?

:pity:

WadeKobe
10-11-2011, 06:41 PM
not to mention that the talent pool is ever growing because the game is more global now.

No, it's not. The NBA started going global to find players when they didn't have enough talent to fill rosters. The talent pool is not growing.

blahblahyoutoo
10-11-2011, 10:52 PM
No, it's not. The NBA started going global to find players when they didn't have enough talent to fill rosters. The talent pool is not growing.

apparently you don't understand what the word pool means.
www.m-w.com is the site i go to when i need to look up the definition of words.

Shmontaine
10-12-2011, 11:15 AM
:facepalm: The league should offer a lesser product so they can make more money off of lemming fans? Give me a break.

You failed to put 2 and 2 together, bro. If there are not 30 legit #1 guys, then non-legit guys are going to get paid too much money, by teams who cannot afford to pay that money, leading to the problem we ahve now.

The problem we have is one of over-expansion. Teams cannot keep exciting, competitive teams in their cities in the current league. And the NBA is not in high demand like it had been in years past.

Opening new businesses that cannot thrive is called "a bad business decision." In the real world, those businesses go out of business and no one sheds a tear. But we want to back NBA owners who make the same poor decision? Why?

:pity:

Please tell me the legit #1's for every NFL team.. and while you're at it, go for MLB and NHL... all those league's are making money, and there are teams in every league without '#1' players... this expansion didn't seem to be an issue in the '90's and through about '08... but now, the league's in financial trouble so you backtrack 25 years and claim those were the mistakes that led to the current problem... okay, man...

Trace
10-12-2011, 12:00 PM
But we want to back NBA owners who make the same poor decision? Why?

:pity:

It's funny you would bring that up, because in the real world, corporations get bail outs and workers earn salaries based on their performance.

llemon
10-12-2011, 01:10 PM
It's funny you would bring that up, because in the real world, corporations get bail outs and workers earn salaries based on their performance.

And sometimes employees get raises and promotions for satisfying the bosses 'needs'.

koLohe2133
10-12-2011, 01:28 PM
It's 100% the owners fault....

If your company had the best year ever, and your boss wanted to cut your pay.....how would u feel?

Bob_at_york
10-12-2011, 01:28 PM
Please tell me the legit #1's for every NFL team.. and while you're at it, go for MLB and NHL... all those league's are making money, and there are teams in every league without '#1' players... this expansion didn't seem to be an issue in the '90's and through about '08... but now, the league's in financial trouble so you backtrack 25 years and claim those were the mistakes that led to the current problem... okay, man...

Don't bring the NHL into this. A lot of teams are losing money.

ink
10-12-2011, 01:48 PM
This American mentality of Anti-Workers is why the middle class is almost gone and the wealth gap is biggest in our history. You are willing to defend the few making billions (because they own the business) over the millions working to make their billions possible. Your tea party/Republican mentality is why we have a country where American workers are no more appreciated and businesses are going overseas.

This is way out of the realm of "workers" vs. "wealthy". They're all wealthy. Even the guy who gets 1.5 minutes in garbage time at the end of the bench is grossly overpaid. This is the entertainment business, it's not an essential service, and no one's standard of living is being kept low by draconian bosses. It's not even vaguely political. The whole CBA issue is an issue of the wealthy and the only losers are the fans who overpay for the tickets to watch the games live.

Any fan taking this on as their own personal issue is getting seriously duped.

HiphopRelated
10-12-2011, 03:09 PM
Please tell me the legit #1's for every NFL team.. and while you're at it, go for MLB and NHL... all those league's are making money, and there are teams in every league without '#1' players... this expansion didn't seem to be an issue in the '90's and through about '08... but now, the league's in financial trouble so you backtrack 25 years and claim those were the mistakes that led to the current problem... okay, man...
vastly different sports you're comparing

The NBA markets players more than any league.

The Heat were a mid tier playoff team (5th seed) the last 2 years with nothing but Wade, Beasley and expiring contracts and was number 3 in road attendance.

The "face" matters more in the NBA than any other.

blahblahyoutoo
10-12-2011, 03:39 PM
It's 100% the owners fault....

If your company had the best year ever, and your boss wanted to cut your pay.....how would u feel?

If my company had the best year ever and still lost money, and has lost money for the past decade, I would keep my resume updated.

llemon
10-12-2011, 05:36 PM
If my company had the best year ever and still lost money, and has lost money for the past decade, I would keep my resume updated.

Of course, that is if the NBA actually did lose money.

Some of these figures just don't make sense.

daleja424
10-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Of course, that is if the NBA actually did lose money.

Some of these figures just don't make sense.

Ya...there were several writers calling that into question today... b/c still both sides have very different interpretations of the leagues books (which have not been opened publicly yet).

Anyone talking about 22 teams losing money and 300 million is debt is taking Stern at face value... which is pretty silly since we all know he rarely tells the complete truth about anything.

Hunters has a very different story about the NBAs books...but no one seems to ever quote those numbers...

zookman65
10-16-2011, 06:50 AM
:clap: yay for the players standing up to the man and getting **** done for the middle class.....wait a bunch of guys making millions for playing basketball, nvm :facepalm:

On top of this I'm pretty sure that the average NBA player will end up losing money in the long run when comparing the money they are losing to the cut they would take and play this season :p

Hey if Wall Street execs could make 50 million a year for running their companies and the world off a cliff in 2007 whats wrong with some kids making millions/year entertaining us? Anybody could run a company into the ground but not everyone can play in the NBA... You fool

zookman65
10-16-2011, 06:52 AM
If my company had the best year ever and still lost money, and has lost money for the past decade, I would keep my resume updated.

What everyone is conveniently forgetting (or not smart enough to understand) is that the enterprise value of each team has greatly appreciated over the past decade in which (allegedly) NBA teams have "lost money" on a cash flow basis. Some economic education on the part of board participants would be a good thing...

zookman65
10-16-2011, 06:56 AM
This is way out of the realm of "workers" vs. "wealthy". They're all wealthy. Even the guy who gets 1.5 minutes in garbage time at the end of the bench is grossly overpaid. This is the entertainment business, it's not an essential service, and no one's standard of living is being kept low by draconian bosses. It's not even vaguely political. The whole CBA issue is an issue of the wealthy and the only losers are the fans who overpay for the tickets to watch the games live.

Any fan taking this on as their own personal issue is getting seriously duped.

Gee I didnt realize that in our capitalistic system value was decided by your decision on what is essential. Garbage collection is essential but we dont value it much. Tom Cruise is not essential in my eyes but the Studios realize his movies make hundreds of millions around the world (entertainment). Garbage man = essential = 10 bucks/hour. Cruise (trash IMO) = entertainment = 20 million/movie. Your essential argument is stupid.