PDA

View Full Version : ***What does it take to be Finals MVP?***



Andrew32
10-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Lets find out. :win:

Hello everyone.

Me and another poster (well quite a few posters) have been discussing the validity of Kobe's 2010 FMVP Trophy. I am of the opinion that Pau Gasol in the 2010 Playoffs deserved the FMVP trophy based on his play/production in the 4 Laker wins.

Let me say first that I respect everyones opinion and how I feel is certainly just (my opinion)

I think the best way to determine who the FMVP of a series was is to look at who performed the best in the teams wins.

Teams can only win a Title by winning 4/7 Games and what interests me most in comparing FMVP's to their supporting Casts is to see who performed well in their teams wins.

I have spent a good deal of time compiling this information regarding
FMVP Winners from 2000 - 2011.

The Numbers/Information below are a comparison of the
00-11 FMVP Winners in comparison to their 2nd options.

You will see the basic stats like Points/Rebounds/Assists (Blocks/Steals if significant enough) and of course shooting %.

You will also see a comparison of the players entire Playoff PER's and combined WShares.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listed below is the information for you to enjoy and compare for yourself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2011 FMVP : Dirk Nowitski
Stats in 4 Winz

Dirk Nowitski : 24 / 10 / 2 --- 40%FG

Jason Terry : 20 / 2 / 4 / 2 --- 56%FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Dirk Nowitski : 25.2 --- 3.6
Jason Terry : 20.3 --- 2.6

Conclusion : Nowitski was obviously the best player for the Mavericks leading his team in playoff PER and WShares by a big amount and clearly out performing anyone else on his team in the Finals. His 4th Quarter scoring is just the Cherry on the top.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2010 FMVP : Kobe Bryant
Stats in 4 Winz

Kobe Bryant : 26.5 / 10 / 3.75 --- 37%FG
2 SPG

Pau Gasol : 19 PPG / 14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG --- 46%FG
2.5 BPG

Post Season PER/WShares
Gasol : 24 --- 4.3
Kobe : 24.7 --- 3.6

Conclusion : 2010 is the one true odditity (from 00-11) when it comes to Final MVP Winners.
Reasons why :

#1. Kobe is the "only" FMVP from 00-11 who got undeniably and significantly outproduced (statistically) by his 2nd option in his teams Finals wins.

#2. Kobe from 00-11 is one of only 3 FMVP winners (05, 08) to be significantly behind their 2nd option in total playoff WShares.

#3. Kobe from 00-11 is one of only 3 FMVP winners (05, 08) to either be behind or have no significant edge in overall production over the course of the entire playoffs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2009 FMVP : Kobe Bryant
Stats in 4 Wins

Kobe Bryant 32 / 6 / 7 --- 43%FG
Pau Gasol : 18 / 11 / 2.5 / 2BPG --- 55%FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Pau Gasol : 22 --- 4.3
Kobe Bryant : 26.8 --- 4.7

Conclusion : Bryant deserved this FMVP, its clear from watching the series that he was the most important player for LA and the most impactful.
However Gasols importance to this championship should not be forgotten and imo is severely underrated.

Kobe led his team in overall production in the playoffs by a significant amount and had a slight edge in WShares over Gasol.

Gasols defense on Dwight Howard was a big reason the team won and his overall production over the course of the series was very good and offensively he was far more effecient that Bryant.

Even taking this into account its clear that in 2009 Kobe was running the offense and his enormous edge in Volume and Assists is too much for Gasol to overcome and thus have a serious argument for the Award even after considering his defense effecient/consistent scoring throughout the 4 Laker wins.
My point is that Gasol was very very important in this series and his overall importance probably wasn't "that" far behind Bryants.

Still this FMVP is clearly Kobe's and he definitely deserved it, was truly a great performance by him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2008 FMVP : Paul Pierce
Stats in 4 Winz

Paul Pierce : 22 / 4 / 6.75 --- 50%FG
Kevin Garnett : 21 / 13 / 3 --- 45%FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Paul Pierce : 17.4 --- 3
Kevin Garnett : 23 --- 4.1

Conclusion : Very close one, Paul Pierce had the better overall production in Bostons 4 Wins in the Finals but KG was their teams main defensive anchor and wasn't significantly worse production wise. This is somewhat similar to Duncan/Parker in the 07 Finals below.

Notes : KG led team in PER and WShares over the entire Post-Season.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2007 FMVP : Tony Parker
Stats in 4 Winz

Tony Parker : 25 / 5 /3.25 --- 57%FG
Tim Duncan : 18/ 11.5 / 3.75 / 2.25 --- 44%FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Tony Parker : 18.7 --- 1.6
Tim Duncan : 27.4 --- 3.3

Conclusion : in the 4 Final Wins Parker had slightly better production. Timmy had more rebounds but Parker had a significant edge in scoring Volume and Efficiency
.
Still I think this was a very close one between Parker and Duncan due to Duncans defensive anchoring and rebounding.

Notes : Duncan was certainly MVP of the entire playoffs having a significant edge in overall Production and WShares.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2005 FMVP : Tim Duncan
Stats in 4 Winz

Tim Duncan : 23/ 14.5 (5 0ffensive) / 2 / 2.5BPG --- 43%FG
Manu Ginobili : 23 / 6 / 5.5 / 1.5SPG --- 55%FG (Super Efficient TS% .750+ in 3/4 Games)

Post Season PER/WShares
Tim Duncan : 25 --- 3.5
Manu Ginobili : 25 --- 4.2

Conclusion : Very close, Ginobili matched Duncan in overall production in the playoffs and actually led the team in WShares.

They were both excellent in the Finals in different ways. Duncan was excellent defensively and hit the boards hard, Ginobili was the teams best offensive player and scored the same amount of points on far better efficiency and led the team in Assists.

Ginobili was amazing in 05 and I think you could have realistically gave the Award to either of the two players and you wouldn't have been wrong but its close enough that I dont have an issue with Duncan winning it they were both deserving. Perhaps a CO-MVP would been good in this series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2003 FMVP : Tim Duncan
Stats in 4 Winz

Tim Duncan : 26 / 18 / 6.75 / 5.5 BPG --- 54%FG
David Robinson : 10 / 7 / 2BPG --- 60%FG
Tony Parker : 15 / 2.5 / 4 --- 41%FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Tim Duncan : 28.4 --- 5.9
David Robinson : 17.7 --- 2.3
Tony Parker : 12 --- 1.1

Conclusion : GOAT Playoffs and Finals performance by Tim Duncan.
Led Team in Production and WShares and had the best Production/Play in the Finals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2002 FMVP : Shaquille Oneal
Stats in 4 Winz

Shaquille Oneal : 36 / 12.5 / 3.75 --- 60%FG
Kobe Bryant : 26 / 6 / 5 --- 51%

Post Season PER/WShares
Shaquille Oneal : 28.4 --- 3.8
Kobe Bryant : 20.5 --- 2.6

Conclusion : GOAT Playoffs and Finals performance by Shaquille Oneal
Led Team in Production and WShares by an enormous amount throughout the entire playoffs and had by far the best Production/Play in the Finals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2001 FMVP : Shaquille Oneal
Stats in 4 Wins

Shaquille Oneal : 31 / 15 / 5 / 4.5 BPG --- 56% FG
Kobe Bryant : 27 / 8 / 6 --- 44% FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Shaquille Oneal : 28.7 --- 3.7 (WSP48 - .260)
Kobe Bryant : 25 --- 3.8 (WSP48 - .260)

Conclusion : GOAT Playoffs and Finals performance by Shaquille Oneal
Led Team in Production by an enormous amount throughout the entire playoffs was (essentially) tied with Bryant in Total WShares and had by far the best Production/Play in the Finals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2000 FMVP : Shaquille Oneal
Stats in 4 Wins

Shaquille Oneal : 40 / 19 / 2.5 / 3BPG --- 60% FG
Kobe Bryant : 17 / 4 / 4 --- 40% FG

Post Season PER/WShares
Shaquille Oneal : 30.5 --- 4.7
Kobe Bryant : 19.3 --- 2.1

Conclusion : The GOAT Playoffs and Finals performance by Shaquille Oneal
(Averaged 40/20 in the 4 LA Wins (Holy *******)

Led Team in Production and WShares by an enormous amount throughout the entire playoffs and had by far the best Production/Play in the Finals.

Notes : Very similar situation to Duncan in 03 and Hakeem in 94.

JWO35
10-02-2011, 02:35 PM
1. Be on the winning Team

KnicksorBust
10-02-2011, 02:35 PM
Why are you comparing overall post-season numbers? Finals MVP has nothing to do with prior rounds.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Why are you comparing overall post-season numbers? Finals MVP has nothing to do with prior rounds.

I agree 100%

However I think it is relevant/helpful and interesting information so I included it.

KnicksorBust
10-02-2011, 02:49 PM
I agree 100%

However I think it is relevant/helpful and interesting information so I included it.

I give you a lot of credit for putting this all together. My only other issue would be using FG%. It doesn't factor two huge aspects of Bryant's advantage over Gasol, his perimeter shot and his abillity to get to the foul line.

Simple example:

Player A - 4 for 10 FG, 2 for 5 3pt, 7-8 ft
Player B - 5 for 10 FG, 0 for 0 3pt, 3-5 ft

Player A has 17 points on 40% FG.
Player B has 13 points on 50% FG.

Who had the better game? It's Player A easily despite the disparity in FG%.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Yea I know and agree with you on that.

The reason why I didn't go through the process of formulating it for each series is because Gasol still has a massive edge in efficiency even if you use TS% and it wouldn't really have any relevance or add anything in the other comparisons.

Here they are below anyway incase you or anyone else wants that information.


TS% for Gasol and Kobe in the 4 LA Wins.

G1 :
Gasol : .625
Kobe : .568

G3 :
Gasol : .477
Kobe : .446

G6:
Gasol : .511
Kobe : .589

G7 :
Gasol : .437
Kobe : .376

Bruno
10-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Cool stuff. Only thing I'd say is that it lacks TS%, and only focuses on wins. How a player performs in losses plays a big part in how voters rate their overall performance. The first finals MVP went to a guy on a losing team; performance in losses also matters here. Nice research Andrew.

KnicksorBust
10-02-2011, 03:16 PM
Besides Andrew, what do other people think of JUST looking at the 4 wins?

Tony_Starks
10-02-2011, 03:17 PM
I think there is something to be said about the FMVP's play in the losses as well. Kobe for example against boston, I think it was game 5, where he went absolutely beserk in the 3rd qtr and put up like 20 pts or something hitting ridiculous shots from everywhere. They still lost but I recall after the game Doc speaking about how deflating those shots were and how he had to keep reminding his guys each time that it was only one shot.

That made it a little easier for him to be a decoy and set the table for other guys, like when he hit Artest for the go ahead 3 in game 7 for the win. Stuff like that is what a mvp is all about.....

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 03:22 PM
I didnt feel they played Bryant that way or that he was ever really useful as a "decoy"

they applyed extra pressure (double teams) consistently vs Kobe when he drove into the paint and vs Gasol when he was creating downlow but I think they (Boston) just played great team defense and wasnt really focused on stopping one individual.

As for that Artest 3 he wasn't exactly wide open, it was just a great shot which he made with his defenders hand down his throat. It was actually a great play by Kobe but Artest didnt shoot when he was open and let the defender take his time getting back to him before he shot it.

Obviously Kobe was a big part of the wins and losses im certainly not debating that I only think Gasol was a "bigger part" in that particular series.

As for creating for others I think Gasol was definitely better averaging a team leading 5APG in LA's 4 Wins.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 03:48 PM
I think there is something to be said about the FMVP's play in the losses as well. Kobe for example against boston, I think it was game 5, where he went absolutely beserk in the 3rd qtr and put up like 20 pts or something hitting ridiculous shots from everywhere. They still lost but I recall after the game Doc speaking about how deflating those shots were and how he had to keep reminding his guys each time that it was only one shot.

That made it a little easier for him to be a decoy and set the table for other guys, like when he hit Artest for the go ahead 3 in game 7 for the win. Stuff like that is what a mvp is all about.....

x2.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 03:51 PM
I dont have a problem looking at "losses"
However I think it makes more sense (in this situation) to look at the Wins

I think its hard to quantify why a team lost.

If Player A plays better in the 4 Wins.
and Player B plays better in the 3 Losses.

Who deserves the Trophy?

They both sucked (Kobe and Gasol) in the first Road Game (which they won)

I think they were about equal in the 2nd road game (G4) but Gasol might have a slight edge because he was more impactful defensively.

Kobe was great in the Final road game offensively but defensively he was poor and Rondo/Pierce both had huge games.

Gasol only scored 12 points in that Final road game but he also had 7 offensive boards (12 total).

Was it Gasols fault he didnt score more in the Final road game or was it because Kobe wasnt running the offense enough and taking to many ISO's which stagnated the offense.

Like I said its hard to quantify losses correctly and either way do you really think Kobe being significantly better in 1 road game is supposed to give him the Edge for the FMVP trophy over Gasol who was better in Every Home game and the Final two games of the series and was Mr. Clutch in the Final minutes of G7?

Where is the logic in that?

If Gasol Dominated in one road game and they lost and Kobe played well at home and they won I doubt any of you would be making that sort of argument.

Basically I think Gasol played better over the course of the "entire series" but the fact that he was better in the "Winning Games" I believe holds more weight then being better in the "Losing Games"

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Kobe was only significantly better in 1 Game (G5) I dont see why that should sway my opinion.

Also weather you take into account the games they lost there are still other odd things about that FMVP.

I think it is an interesting Fact/Statistic that of every FMVP from 2000-2010 Kobe was the only one significantly outplayed/outproduced "statistically" by his "2nd option" in his teams 4 "Winning Games"

I mean in every other series the FMVP was either clearly better statistically and in overall production or it was close enough that you could go either way.

I cant outright ignore something like that.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 06:53 PM
2010 NBA Finals PER:
Bryant- 26.3
Gasol- 25.5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-21-30

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 06:59 PM
:facepalm:

games 3-5 dont matter?


On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

Bruno
10-02-2011, 07:01 PM
:facepalm:

games 3-5 dont matter?

Do you know their road TS% over the three games?

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 07:05 PM
Do you know their road TS% over the three games?

Kobe
gm 3 - .446
gm 4 - .647
gm 5 - .614

Gasol
gm 3 - .477
gm 4 - .603
gm 5 - .450

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2010/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2010/

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 07:07 PM
Yea, they were both pretty bad in G3
I feel they were about Equal in G4
Kobe was definitely better in G5

Still that's only one game where he significantly outplayed Gasol.
Gasol was better in practically every Home Game and they (Won) those games.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 07:11 PM
Kobe
gm 3 - .446
gm 4 - .647
gm 5 - .614

Gasol
gm 3 - .477
gm 4 - .603
gm 5 - .450

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2010/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2010/

So strange how Kobe had two of his most efficient nights on the road. I think he knew that the others, including Gasol struggle on the road and that he needed to carry a bigger burden. It didn't work, but it's better than getting blown out on the road; that's what would have happened if Kobe didn't keep the game close.

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 07:43 PM
Yea, they were both pretty bad in G3
I feel they were about Equal in G4
Kobe was definitely better in G5

Still that's only one game where he significantly outplayed Gasol.
Gasol was better in practically every Home Game and they (Won) those games.

kobe was better in game 1, 3, 4, 5
gasol was better in game 2, 6
they were equal in game 7

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Kobe wasn't better in G1 but atleast that game was relatively close.

Game 7... are you kidding?

Gasol was more productive, more effecient, and more Clutch.

Kobe did a few good things in G7 but overall it was probably his worst game of the series.

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 07:52 PM
Kobe wasn't better in G1 but atleast that game was relatively close.

Game 7... are you kidding?

game 1
30/7/6 on 57 TS% > 23/14/3 on 57 TS%

game 7
23/15/2, 10 4th quarter points
19/18/4, 9 4th quarter points

both were 6-16 on 2s, pretty equal to me

Underrated Wade
10-02-2011, 07:54 PM
1. be on winning team
2. be at least solid in most playoff games
3. be the best player on ur team in the finals
4. not be lebron james

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 07:54 PM
Game 1 - Gasol is better but Kobe is good
Game 2 - Gasol is much better
Game 3 - Both are bad
Game 4 - Both are good I'd say they are Equal
Game 5 - Kobe is better
Game 6 - Gasol is better
Game 7 - Gasol is much better

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 07:56 PM
Game 1 - Kobe is better
Game 2 - Gasol is much better
Game 3 - kobe is better
Game 4 - Kobe is much better
Game 5 - Kobe is much better
Game 6 - Gasol is slightly better
Game 7 - equal

Fixed

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 07:58 PM
Game 1
Kobe - 30/7/6 on 57 TS%
Gasol - 23/14/3 on 63 TS%

Kobe was better

Game 4
Kobe - 33/6/2 on 64.7 TS%
Gasol - 21/6/3 on 60.3 TS%

Kobe was way better

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 08:00 PM
game 4
Kobe - 33/6/2 on 64.7 TS%
Gasol - 21/6/3 on 60.3 TS%

Kobe was way better in game 4

How is that way better?

I watched that game and Gasol owned Garnett and held him to like 10 points and anchored the paint getting a few blocks. Kobe that game cost them a bunch of points when he roamed on defense and left Ray Allen/PP wide open.

Kobe might have a slight edge statistically but I wouldnt say he clearly had the better game.. it was close.

I dont mind saying Kobe is slightly better that game but definitely not way better.

Raph12
10-02-2011, 08:03 PM
PPG on the winning team... That's it, doesn't matter how you got them or what percentage you shot; if you're the leading scorer on the winning team, you win Finals MVP.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 08:04 PM
game 1
30/7/6 on 57 TS% > 23/14/3 on 57 TS%


How can you expect me or anyone else to take you seriously when you post incorrect stats?

Game "1"
Gasol :
23 Points
14 Rebounds
8 0ffensive Rebounds
3 Assists
3 Blocks
63%TS

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 08:05 PM
How is that way better?

I watched that game and Gasol owned Garnett and held him to like 10 points and anchored the paint getting a few blocks. Kobe that game cost them a bunch of points when he roamed on defense and left Ray Allen/PP wide open.

Kobe might have a slight edge statistically but I wouldnt say he clearly had the better game.. it was close.

I dont mind saying Kobe is slightly better that game but definitely not way better.

:facepalm:

33/6/2 on 64 TS% >> 21/6/3 on 60 TS%

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 08:06 PM
How can you expect me or anyone else to take you seriously when you post incorrect stats?

Game "1"
Gasol :
23 Points
14 Rebounds
8 0ffensive Rebounds
3 Assists
3 Blocks
63%TS

I already fixed that like 5 minutes ago

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 08:08 PM
:facepalm:

33/6/2 on 64 TS% >> 21/6/3 on 60 TS%

Make whatever smileys you want but if you factor in how each impaced the game defensively in G4 its very close.

I dont mind giving the edge to Kobe but its certainly not a very large one.

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 08:10 PM
Make whatever smileys you want but if you factor in how each impaced the game defensively in G4 its very close.

I dont mind giving the edge to Kobe but its certainly not a very large one.

a 7 footer grabbing only 6 rebounds in 44 minutes is pathetic
Kobe grabbed that amount
and 33-21= 12 more points
and a 6'6" shot a higher % than a 7 footer
lol come one now

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 08:14 PM
G1 :
23 Points
14 Rebounds
8 0ffensive Rebounds
3 Assists
3 Blocks
63%TS

A few extra points dont make up for the rebounding/defense/efficiency not even close.
Gasol is clearly better this game.


G7 :
19/18/4 (9 0ffensive Rebounds) on 44%TS >>>>>>>> 23/15/2 on 37%TS

Production in Final 3 Minutes :
Gasol : 8 Points, 3 Boards, 1 Assist, 1 Huge Block
Kobe : 2 Points off a Gasol Assist

Gasol was "way" better then Kobe in G7 and significantly better in G1.

Say what you want about Gasol in G4 but he punked KG that game and played excellent defense.

knightstemplar
10-02-2011, 08:30 PM
G1 :
23 Points
14 Rebounds
8 0ffensive Rebounds
3 Assists
3 Blocks
63%TS

A few extra points dont make up for the rebounding/defense/efficiency not even close.
Gasol is clearly better this game.


G7 :
19/18/4 (9 0ffensive Rebounds) on 44%TS >>>>>>>> 23/15/2 on 37%TS

Production in Final 3 Minutes :
Gasol : 8 Points, 3 Boards, 1 Assist, 1 Huge Block
Kobe : 2 Points off a Gasol Assist

Gasol was "way" better then Kobe in G7 and significantly better in G1.

Say what you want about Gasol in G4 but he punked KG that game and played excellent defense.

Gasol had 5 points and 3 rebounds in the final 3 minutes
http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=300617013&period=4

4th quarter of Game 7 (Kobe rested the first minute)
Kobe - 10 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
Gasol - 9 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=300617013&period=4

they were pretty much equal in game 7

TrueFan420
10-03-2011, 03:46 AM
first off you should have a mod add a pole.

I actually agree that Gasol should have been finals mvp that year. There is no questioning who the best player was on that team and who the leader was... it was Kobe. However, Gasol is the most important player on the lakers. When he goes off they are next to impossible to stop and he had a far bigger impact because without him stepping up and having big nights on the offensive end and most importantly defensive end they would not have won no matter how many points Kobe dropped. Gasol was the MVP that year.

basketfan4life
10-03-2011, 03:58 AM
G1 :
23 Points
14 Rebounds
8 0ffensive Rebounds
3 Assists
3 Blocks
63%TS

A few extra points dont make up for the rebounding/defense/efficiency not even close.
Gasol is clearly better this game.


G7 :
19/18/4 (9 0ffensive Rebounds) on 44%TS >>>>>>>> 23/15/2 on 37%TS

Production in Final 3 Minutes :
Gasol : 8 Points, 3 Boards, 1 Assist, 1 Huge Block
Kobe : 2 Points off a Gasol Assist

Gasol was "way" better then Kobe in G7 and significantly better in G1.

Say what you want about Gasol in G4 but he punked KG that game and played excellent defense.

you are either an idiot or on a mission...you don't mine a few(7 actually) points and call Gasol significantly better than Kobe in game 1, way better in game 7, and yet you call them equal in game 4 where Kobe is clearly significantly better.

ALSO DON'T THROW LIES HERE. Gasol was non existent on defence on the road, he never showed on the road for defense but you say he anchored lakers defense, that right there is a huge lie...

Gasol and Odom cost lakers that game 4, you know how many offensive rebounds Glen Davis pull that game 4th qt?how many second chance points did he get because of odom and gasol? Do you know while Kobe got hot and scored 3 possessions in a row at the and of the third quarter Gasol made that stupid foul and garnett had an and1 and all the momentum switched back to Celtics? do you know before game 7 everybody was talking about should Kobe be the MVP even if lakers lose series?

Gasol had an huge impact on that series but he was the biggest reason that series lasted 7 games,he played on th raod just like he played against dallas this year, get you stuff outta here.

naps
10-03-2011, 09:41 AM
Gasol clearly was the MVP. He was robbed just like CP3 was robbed in 2008 for regular season MVP. Sad.

basketfan4life
10-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Gasol clearly was the MVP. He was robbed just like CP3 was robbed in 2008 for regular season MVP. Sad.

yeah, all awards that Kobe won, you must be really sad :)

naps
10-03-2011, 10:41 AM
yeah, all awards that Kobe won, you must be really sad :)


Where did I ever say all the awards? You sound mad there.

This thread clearly proved Gasol had more to do with Lakers winning the 2010 championship series.

And about 2008, we all know what happened. CP3 getting robbed is a no-bariner. Ofcourse a Kobe fan will always be in denial and I am not surprised at all.

avon_barksdale
10-03-2011, 10:53 AM
finals mvps aint go by stupid stat geek **** like per and winshares. it mainly go by ppg impact and eyeball test

JordansBulls
10-03-2011, 10:53 AM
I think Garnett outproduced Pierce in 2008 for the playoffs, but Pierce was better overall in the finals.
Same thing in 2007 where Duncan outproduced Parker in the the playoffs, but Parker was better in the finals.
2005 Manu actually outproduced Duncan in the playoffs.

basketfan4life
10-03-2011, 11:02 AM
Where did I ever say all the awards? You sound mad there.

This thread clearly proved Gasol had more to do with Lakers winning the 2010 championship series.

And about 2008, we all know what happened. CP3 getting robbed is a no-bariner. Ofcourse a Kobe fan will always be in denial and I am not surprised at all.
no no, itried to say all awrds you use as an example are the ones Kobe won.to me, a Kobe hater like you will always be in denial.

naps
10-03-2011, 11:18 AM
no no, itried to say all awrds you use as an example are the ones Kobe won.to me, a Kobe hater like you will always be in denial.

Good argument. Gasol deserved MVP more than Kobe did. You can't encounter that. It's already proved in this thread. CP3 on the other hand, was robbed big time. I can go on details if you wanna have a civil debate with statistics instead of fooling around with homerism.

SaimuKala
10-03-2011, 12:02 PM
Gasol clearly was the MVP. He was robbed just like CP3 was robbed in 2008 for regular season MVP. Sad.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

SaimuKala
10-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Kobe is a 5 time champion because he had Shaq and Gasol in his team
Gasol should have been the FMVP, he got robbed.
Kobe is a 13 time all-star because he had Shaq and Pau Gasol in his team
Kobe is a 2 time scoring champion because he is a ballhog
He is in ALL-NBA teams because he has a good team.
Kobe won the mvp because paul got robbed.
this is all so sad :cry:

ghettosean
10-03-2011, 12:32 PM
This was one of the most well put together posts or threads I've seen created since I joined this forum.

Well done!!! Very impressive!!!

Oh and you have to be on the winning team ;) To get finals MVP that's for damn sure but beyond that I don't know. When Peirce won finals MVP over Garnett I was like WTF either or they were both big contributors in the finals and the playoffs.

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 12:43 PM
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Gasol clearly was the MVP. He was robbed just like CP3 was robbed in 2008 for regular season MVP. Sad.

go cry about it

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 02:11 PM
Anybody know the PER of Duncan and Manu in the 2005 Finals?

basketfan4life
10-03-2011, 04:37 PM
Good argument. Gasol deserved MVP more than Kobe did. You can't encounter that. It's already proved in this thread. CP3 on the other hand, was robbed big time. I can go on details if you wanna have a civil debate with statistics instead of fooling around with homerism.
you call me homer first than you bold where i say i'm no homer but you are a hater,classy baby... you say nothing but "he got robbed" kinda things,"it's already proved", but i don't see any proof, Kobe was finals mvp and from what i see, your gonna have hard time sucking it.

i.got.the.nutz
10-03-2011, 07:56 PM
Good argument. Gasol deserved MVP more than Kobe did. You can't encounter that. It's already proved in this thread. CP3 on the other hand, was robbed big time. I can go on details if you wanna have a civil debate with statistics instead of fooling around with homerism.

The only thing this thread has proven is that Kobe deserved Finals MVP. Counting only the games the Lakers win is laughable. Kobe was better the majority of the series and before game 7, he was talked about how he might win MVP regardless of the outcome. Gasol pretty much disappeared on the road. How can someone win Finals MVP if they can't show up to play on the road?

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Good argument. Gasol deserved MVP more than Kobe did. You can't encounter that. It's already proved in this thread. CP3 on the other hand, was robbed big time. I can go on details if you wanna have a civil debate with statistics instead of fooling around with homerism.

:laugh:

where?
lol

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 08:08 PM
@ the two posters above me.

#1. Kobe was never talked about being Finals MVP, if they lost he certainly would have had Zero chance of winning it.

#2.
Gasol was better then Kobe in 3/4 Games they Won (G1, G6, G7)
Gasol was significantly better in 1/4 Games they Lost (G2)

Kobe was "slightly better" in 1/4 Games they Won (G3) and 1/4 Games they Lost (G4).
Kobe was significantly better in 1/4 Games they lost. (G5)

So Gasol was better in 4/7 Games overall and Kobe was only "slightly better" in 2/3 other games.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 08:10 PM
@ the two posters above me.

#1. Kobe was never talked about being Finals MVP, if they lost he certainly would have had Zero chance of winning it.

#2.
Gasol was better then Kobe in 3/4 Games they Won
Gasol was significantly better in 1/4 Games they Lost

Kobe was "slightly better" in 1/4 Games they Won and 1/4 Games they Lost.
Kobe was significantly better in 1/4 Games they lost.

So Kobe was better in 4/7 Games overall and Kobe was only "slightly better" in 2/3 other games.

you didnt watch then, cause the broadcasters mentioned it a couple of times

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 08:15 PM
@ the two posters above me.

#1. Kobe was never talked about being Finals MVP, if they lost he certainly would have had Zero chance of winning it.

#2.
Gasol was better then Kobe in 3/4 Games they Won (G1, G6, G7)
Gasol was significantly better in 1/4 Games they Lost (G2)

Kobe was "slightly better" in 1/4 Games they Won (G3) and 1/4 Games they Lost (G4).
Kobe was significantly better in 1/4 Games they lost. (G5)

So Gasol was better in 4/7 Games overall and Kobe was only "slightly better" in 2/3 other games.


trolol

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 08:17 PM
I was being generous.. I think Gasol was almost equally as good in a few of those games but I just went ahead and said Kobe was "slightly better"

I would say he (Gasol) was "clearly better" in Games 1,2,7 and I have a hard time not saying the same thing for G6.

They both were bad in G3 but Kobe had slightly better production so I gave it to him.

Both were good in G4 and Gasol was much better defensively but I gave it to Kobe since his production was slightly better.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 08:23 PM
I was being generous.. I think Gasol was almost equally as good in a few of those games but I just went ahead and said Kobe was "slightly better"

I would say he (Gasol) was "clearly better" in Games 1,2,7 and I have a hard time not saying the same thing for G6.

They both were bad in G3 but Kobe had slightly better production so I gave it to him.

Both were good in G4 and Gasol was much better defensively but I gave it to Kobe since his production was slightly better.

How was gasol better in game 1 and 7?

30/7/6 vs 23/14/3
24/15/2 vs 19/18/4

and lmao @ you saying significantly better

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 08:30 PM
His Production Effeciency and Clutch play were all better then Kobe's in G7
That is why he was better that Game.

Let me say that you in the very very small Minority who think Kobe was equal to or better then Gasol in that particular Game.

Gasols production in G1 was better then Kobe's not PPG but overall Production, combine that with his significantly better offensive efficiency and offensive rebounding and his bigger defensive impact and I think its pretty easy to say he was better that game.

Both had big scoring nights in G1, I suppose if you put a ton of extra weight on those extra PPG as opposed to just overall production then you might consider Kobe to have had the better game (and if you do I respect your opinion) but I dont think or feel that way.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 08:38 PM
His Production Effeciency and Clutch play were all better then Kobe's in G7
That is why he was better that Game.

Let me say that you in the very very small Minority who think Kobe was equal to or better then Gasol in that particular Game.

Gasols production in G1 was better then Kobe's not PPG but overall Production, combine that with his significantly better offensive effeicnecy and offensive rebounding and his bigger defensive impact and I think its pretty easy to say he was better that game.

Both had big scoring nights in G1, I suppose if you put a ton of extra weight on those extra PPG as opposed to just overall production then you might consider Kobe to have had the better game (and if you do I respect your opinion) but I dont think or feel that way.

more "clutch"er in game 7?
4th Q
Kobe - 10/4/1
Gasol - 9/6/1

I dont think you know how much 15 rebounds for a 2 Guard is

Game 1, 30/7/6 is better overall numbers than 23/14/3
Kobe only played 38 minutes in game 1, gasol 46 since the game was a blowout in the 3rd quarter, and Kobe still had the better numbers

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 08:56 PM
Gasols clutch play and offensive rebounding is the main reason they beat the Celtics in G7.
Even if you think Kobe was as Clutch as him (he wasn't) Gasol still had much better production, was more efficient and better defensively (imo)

I think Gasol's G1 was better due to superior all around production, better offensive efficiency and his offensive rebounding. If you think Kobe had the better game that is fine but you can certainly make a fair argument Gasol had the better game.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Gasols clutch play and offensive rebounding is the main reason they beat the Celtics in G7.
Even if you think Kobe was as Clutch as him (he wasn't) Gasol still had much better production, was more efficient and better defensively (imo)

I think Gasol's G1 was better due to superior all around production, better offensive efficiency and his offensive rebounding. If you think Kobe had the better game that is fine but you can certainly make a fair argument Gasol had the better game.

gasol was not better than Kobe in game 1

The Lakers built a 20 point lead in the 3rd quarter in game 1, so the 4th quarter was garbage time

Game 1

Kobe
38 minutes
30 pts
7 reb
6 ast
1 stl
1 blk
57 TS%

Gasol
46 minutes
23 pts
14 reb
3 ast
1 stl
3 blks
63 TS%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html

gasol played 8 extra minutes of garbage time

Kobe was better, even without the extra 8 minutes

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 09:07 PM
why does Kobe have 8 Assists now? he only had 6 Assists.

And yes I think Considering Gasols 0ffensive rebounding, better effeciency and defensive anchoring throughout the game I would he say he was better.

Statistically its very close but Gasol has the edge.

knightstemplar
10-03-2011, 09:10 PM
:facepalm:

whatever

Andrew32
10-03-2011, 09:12 PM
Dude.. dont take it personally.

if Gasol really did pad his stats in those extra minutes and I'll take your word that they came at the end of the game then maybe it is closer then I think.

But if two players have around the same production but one (IMO) was much better defensively then its usually an easy choice for me.

Maybe Bryant was the better player in G1 i'll watch the game later and think it over more.

Lucky.
10-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Nice job putting this all together. All in all, MVP's in all sports are wrong most of the time. People get distracted by stats not the most valuable player meaning they can't win without them. Most of the time.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-03-2011, 10:12 PM
Have a better finals performance than everyone else and win.