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View Full Version : Francona out as Red Sox Manager (Official Post #85)



dodgersuck
09-30-2011, 12:23 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/manager-terry-francona-expected-to-part-ways-with-red-sox-092911


Terry Francona will meet with Red Sox management on Friday morning, and the expected resolution is that he no longer will be the team’s manager, major league sources say.

While Francona’s departure is not certain, it is the likely outcome, in part because he is pressing for a resolution, sources say. He would not be fired; the Red Sox would simply decline their club options on him for 2012 and ’13.

At that point, Francona would be free to pursue long-term contracts with other clubs. The White Sox’s position currently is open, and Francona managed five seasons in their minor-league system in the early 1990s.

The Cubs could be another possibility for Francona once they hire a new general manager and proceed with the expected dismissal of manager Mike Quade. Francona played for the Cubs in 1986.

Or Francona — after eight years under intense scrutiny in Boston — could decide not to manage at all in 2012.

Francona, 52, led the Red Sox to World Series titles in 2004 and ‘07 — the franchise’s first two championships since 1918 — and took the team to the playoffs five times.

His departure would come in the wake of the Red Sox blowing a nine-game game lead in the American League wild-card race, the biggest ever held by a team in September that failed to make the playoffs.

Francona and general manager Theo Epstein met in Boston with reporters on Thursday, one day after the Red Sox were eliminated by a stunning turn of events — a walk-off loss to the Orioles and the Rays’ walk-off victory over the Yankees.

Epstein said that club officials already had been meeting to discuss how the team crumbled, and that, “nobody blames what happened in September on Tito.”

"That would be totally irresponsible and shortsighted,” Epstein said. “As an organization we have to look at our successes and failures, and what happened in 2011 — we take full responsibility for it. All of us collectively look at it as a failure. I'm the general manager, so I take more responsibility than anybody.

“But I know we don't believe in scapegoats, particularly blaming Tito for what happened in September. We all failed collectively. We're all together in this; we've got to live with that. We're not pointing fingers at any one person in particular.”

Epstein, however, may not have the final say. Ownership could conclude that Francona, after eight seasons of leading the Red Sox, has simply run his course as manager.

Francona managed the Phillies from 1997 to 2000. He was a special assistant to the GM with the Indians in 2001, then the bench coach for the Rangers in 2002 and Athletics in ‘03 before taking over the Red Sox in ’04.

-per Rosenthal

keymax
09-30-2011, 12:24 AM
Come back home Tito ;)

fadedmario
09-30-2011, 12:25 AM
wow

NYY NYJ NYK
09-30-2011, 12:26 AM
I would be shocked if this happened.

DodgerB24
09-30-2011, 12:29 AM
Stupid move.

gmanthree15
09-30-2011, 12:29 AM
Of course it's the managers fault. He's the one playing the game and constructing the roster...oh wait. I guess Francona will get fired because Epstein does not have the fortitude to admit he is wasting about 1/3 of the red sox payroll on dead money and sunk costs with no benefits.

MJ-BULLS
09-30-2011, 12:31 AM
If he is out, i could see him going to the white sox.

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 12:31 AM
I wouldn't be shocked by this. I sort of assumed it was going to happen.

While it doesn't necessarily mean anything, missing the playoffs like this and collapsing at the end certainly should put him on the hot seat (Freddi Gonzalez as well, but it's also still his first year).

They have missed the playoffs two years in a row, when the expectation is WS or nothing. I don't think Francona is at fault here (in fact, I think he is overall a pretty good manager and it would be a mistake to let him go), I understand that the expectation is playoffs at least, division preferred. And Sox fans feel like he let them down, even though I don't think he did.



I wouldn't fire him, but I am betting he will be.

RTL
09-30-2011, 12:32 AM
If it happens, it's a terrible, irrational move. Who the hell is out there that is better? If Francona hits the market, I sure hope the Giants ask about him!!

j-bay
09-30-2011, 12:32 AM
its going to be a battle between the w sox and the cubs

dodgersuck
09-30-2011, 12:33 AM
He's NOT being fired, Francona is the one that is asking that the Sox don't pick up his option years. Big difference

j-bay
09-30-2011, 12:33 AM
I wouldn't be shocked by this. I sort of assumed it was going to happen.

While it doesn't necessarily mean anything, missing the playoffs like this and collapsing at the end certainly should put him on the hot seat (Freddi Gonzalez as well, but it's also still his first year).

They have missed the playoffs two years in a row, when the expectation is WS or nothing. I don't think Francona is at fault here (in fact, I think he is overall a pretty good manager and it would be a mistake to let him go), I understand that the expectation is playoffs at least, division preferred. And Sox fans feel like he let them down, even though I don't think he did.



I wouldn't fire him, but I am betting he will be.
he's not being fired he is quiting an article said he had his fill of being the sox manager

Melo15
09-30-2011, 12:38 AM
:sigh:

"Ace"ves
09-30-2011, 12:39 AM
i don't blame Francona for wanting to leave.... the team was depressing to be around. Just watching the yankees play the red sox.... id look at their dugout and it made me depressed.

Mudvayne91
09-30-2011, 12:43 AM
I like Jim Tracy, but I'd love for Francona to come to Colorado. A man can dream.

Bo Sox Fan
09-30-2011, 12:45 AM
Tito did a hell of a job bringing 2 World Series Championships to Boston, but reality has set in and it is time for a new voice.

Hell, even Joe Torre had to leave New York at some point.

Adios Tito.

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 12:51 AM
ah, I see.

RevisIsland
09-30-2011, 12:52 AM
I wonder who Boston hires to replace him. There aren't many managers in baseball better than Terry Francona.

McPeak92
09-30-2011, 01:03 AM
It's mutual.

Nobody is blaming Tito or thinks he is a bad manager but maybe a new face leading the sox will do them some good.

Tragedy
09-30-2011, 01:10 AM
Really a huge shame. We ran Francona out of town after 8 years being a solid manager and helping us win 2 titles. Francona has been the scape goat for a lot of the BS that happened - I've heard a lot of stuff that certain Red Sox players were in "cliques" this year and didn't associate themselves with other players - That makes life a hell of a lot more difficult for a manager who tries to be a players manager.

What disgusts me is that Francona was not the reason we lost. Lackey sucked all year, matsuzaka got hurt, Drew got hurt, Buchholz got hurt, Youk got hurt, and Crawford sucked all year. That isn't his fault.

If this is really the end of the line for Francona, good for him. He deserves better than the way many Red Sox fans belittled him over the years.

GrantHustle
09-30-2011, 01:10 AM
Don't blame Tito for leaving he'll probably take a year off ....and on the plus side he doesn't have to look at John Lackey ugly face every day

Brave4life
09-30-2011, 01:22 AM
I would take him over Fredi Gonzalez any day of the week

I dont know any manager that wouldnt want to manage the Braves.

The NL will be the best divisions in a couple of years. Nationals-Marins are stacked with great talent. Its not gonna be a easy ride in the coming years.

papipapsmanny
09-30-2011, 01:27 AM
id be happy either way.....

Francona is a fantastic manager of people and the personalities, but is a horrible in game manager.

I would welcome a fresh start

RTL
09-30-2011, 01:31 AM
Any Red Sox fans think Dave Magadan has a shot?

BaustinSali08
09-30-2011, 01:35 AM
id be happy either way.....

Francona is a fantastic manager of people and the personalities, but is a horrible in game manager.

I would welcome a fresh start

Who is better than Francona that we could get? Because I don't see anyone coming in and suddenly making Lackey and Crawford step up their games to earn what they are getting paid.

long ball
09-30-2011, 01:52 AM
Meh.

Moe Bigsley
09-30-2011, 01:57 AM
As stated, it sounds like it is completely mutual deal. He is asking to be let out of his contact and the Red Sox organization is agreeing to it without a fight. Why? I haven't the slightest idea, but then again I haven't followed every step of the team and I'm sure there have been discrepancies.

As a Chicago fan, I would welcome him to either side of the organization (Cubs or Sox). In my personal opinion though, if he wanted to come to Chicago and had to choose a less stressful job I would think he would join the Cubs. Although Cubs FO and fans will always want to win now, this is the stage of reevaluation and rebuilding. As for the White Sox, they have the team they want (despite a player here and there) and plan on making a run in the next few years with the budget. It really would all depend on what he wants.

For either side though, I hope he comes to Chicago :)

jim51990
09-30-2011, 02:00 AM
people seem to not understand its tito wanting to leave and the sox letting him their not firing him. he wants out

Bulldogs100
09-30-2011, 02:07 AM
i don't blame Francona for wanting to leave.... the team was depressing to be around. Just watching the yankees play the red sox.... id look at their dugout and it made me depressed.

yeah im sure he looked depressed when the sox played the yankees....the sox beat up on the yankees this year too bad we didnt play them more in september

infernoscurse
09-30-2011, 02:14 AM
lol magadan

i say wally backman :D

GoatMilk
09-30-2011, 02:20 AM
if the nats dont bring back Davey Johnson, makes sense

only 1 opening right now, White Sox
Cubs will probably be open though I guess

still, 2

the next 2 guys on the hot seat I guess would be Jim Tracy and Brad Mills, and those might be stretches

LaRussa could leave, but im guessing if Albert comes back so will he
and im assuming Girardi will be back

1903
09-30-2011, 02:57 AM
Theo and Francona to the Cubs? Sorry boys, you can't beat goat magic.

StayOnBoard
09-30-2011, 08:11 AM
Stupid decision if Boston is the one pulling the plug - though with the way the fans have acted I don't blame him for wanting out....

Francona is an excellent manager, though - I'm happy to see this because it means the Red Sox will take a step back

Towelie
09-30-2011, 08:40 AM
For the people who keep singing his praises are clearly not as involved in watching the team as most. Changes needed to happen with players and in Sept, nothing happened. He continuously batted people 5th who shouldn't have batted 5th(Lavarnway, Darnell Mcdonold) he loved to sit and watch our pen get destroyed. People say it's not his fault, but when you sit there and let Bard blow up 5 times in Sept yes that is his fault, you take him out of the game. If he loves a guy no matter how bad he is, he will stick with him. But guys like Crawford get moved around in the lineup everywhere. There are many reasons why the Sox didn't make the playoff's but you can't fire the players you can fire the GM and the Manger.

I like Tito and don't know who else would be sitting on the bench but a change can be a good thing and something I think is needed in Boston.

The X
09-30-2011, 09:35 AM
Not to return to Boston next season.


http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/thebuzz/2011/09/terry_francona.html

Says it all in the link

The X
09-30-2011, 09:36 AM
Are we looking at the next cubs manager?

JOSKOMANG4
09-30-2011, 09:40 AM
He's definitely out. I see him getting a job in MLB next season; possibly ChiSox.

In regards of new Manager, i can possibly see Bobby V or Davey Johnson the new Manager.

1908_Cubs
09-30-2011, 09:41 AM
Are we looking at the next cubs manager?

I think there's a good chance at that. But that's going to depend on the GM situation. The Cubs will get a GM, then a manager.

Towelie
09-30-2011, 09:44 AM
Hope he enjoys the next team he's on but very excited to see someone new. I'd prefer someone who hasn't been a manager yet.

thefeckcampaign
09-30-2011, 09:46 AM
Sounds to me they need to go from the laid back type to the yell and scream type. ;)

Towelie
09-30-2011, 09:50 AM
They need a non BS type of manager, who is respected and liked by the players. I think the Sox will get that person, just don't know who it is.

Jetsguy
09-30-2011, 09:51 AM
I heard he may be in on White Sox job.

Boston is crazy if they are putting this on Francona

Towelie
09-30-2011, 09:53 AM
Tito might also stop managing all together, he talked a lot about how this has put a stress on his family.

TragicallyHip
09-30-2011, 10:13 AM
They need a non BS type of manager, who is respected and liked by the players. I think the Sox will get that person, just don't know who it is.

Cal Ripken Jr.?

How can you not respect that man and he is obviously a no BS type of guy.

Can you imagine going into The Ironman's office 20 minutes before gametime and begging out of the lineup because you had a "sore shoulder" a la Carl Crawford??

CubbieSteve
09-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Come to the Cubs Francona, we'll treat you right.

One Nut Kruk
09-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Rumour has it that Florida wants to deal Ozzie Guillen for Lackey.

DaSox_05
09-30-2011, 10:28 AM
Jon Heyman via twitter reporting that indeed Francona's option will not be picked up and is out as Red Sox manager.

www.twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

F*(&"Next Year"
09-30-2011, 10:34 AM
Rumour has it that Florida wants to deal Ozzie Guillen for Lackey.

Deal! We'll DFA Guillen right after though.

flea
09-30-2011, 10:39 AM
Not a huge surprise. Francona is an average manager at best, made to look better by the players he managed. He certainly deserves another job, but it's not like the Red Sox are letting go of a top 5 manager in this league.

theslick1
09-30-2011, 10:53 AM
LIstening to Gammons on MLB Network. Asked "which names are you hearing," the first guy he mentioned was Bobby Valentine.

Is Valentine a viable candidate?

oak2455
09-30-2011, 10:54 AM
wow so know he's not a good manager:facepalm:

oak2455
09-30-2011, 10:55 AM
hey don't blame Theo though... because the Boy Wonder is a fraud:facepalm:

avrpatsfan
09-30-2011, 10:58 AM
Awful move, Tito is a great manager.

americanoutlaw
09-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Sound like he was not fired Francona step down
I could see Francona
Taking over as manager as the white sox
Taking a FO job with the Red Sox
Taking a job with MLB
Manager of 2013 team usa

infernoscurse
09-30-2011, 11:03 AM
what i find funny is that arod opt out during playoffs and people go on a commotion ripping him appart cause hes upstaging the playoffs, Boston redsox "fire" a manager during during the playoffs and noone says a thing :laugh2:

infernoscurse
09-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Sound like he was not fired Francona step down
I could see Francona
Taking over as manager as the white sox
Taking a FO job with the Red Sox
Taking a job with MLB
Manager of 2013 team usa

the yankees didnt fire joe torre either, they just "fired" him

Hugbees
09-30-2011, 11:06 AM
I want the Sox to lure Joe Torre out of retirement. That would be funnnnnnnnny as hell.

theslick1
09-30-2011, 11:12 AM
I want the Sox to lure Joe Torre out of retirement. That would be funnnnnnnnny as hell.

Picturing Scott Proctor in a Red Sox uniform.....

SoxRTattedOnMe
09-30-2011, 11:12 AM
Some say it's not Franconas fault the sox didn't make it into the plaoffs..he's just a manager. Well it's his job to manage games by games. He never put the team in the best position to win games. Yes some people under achieved but oh well. Can't blame injuries n what not....Look at the starting staff the yanks threw out there ( not a knock just saying). Every team faces injuries some manage their teams better than others.

Redsox07Champs
09-30-2011, 11:16 AM
could boston pick up his options and trade him? ozzie guillen over again?

koLohe2133
09-30-2011, 11:17 AM
Some say it's not Franconas fault the sox didn't make it into the plaoffs..he's just a manager. Well it's his job to manage games by games. He never put the team in the best position to win games. Yes some people under achieved but oh well. Can't blame injuries n what not....Look at the starting staff the yanks threw out there ( not a knock just saying). Every team faces injuries some manage their teams better than others.

This.

I think he got complacent. When your manager is too laid back it trickles down to the players....

They should hire Larry bowa. His red-***** never gets complacent

mttwlsn16
09-30-2011, 11:17 AM
theo should be the one leaving...how do u not have any kind of backup plan for when dice BB and buchholz get injured, and lackey just was terrible. he picked up nothing to try to back these guys up

infernoscurse
09-30-2011, 11:23 AM
well there were complaints about redsox players not being in shaped, and they also needed someone with fire to motivate them so i say they should hire terry tate to be manager

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg5cdZ-Fnpc&feature=related

ne3xchamps
09-30-2011, 11:30 AM
The sox need a shake up. A manager getting to complacent is not good. We need a manager that will put a fire under these guys' ***!

TrueYankee
09-30-2011, 11:42 AM
well there were complaints about redsox players not being in shaped, and they also needed someone with fire to motivate them so i say they should hire terry tate to be manager

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg5cdZ-Fnpc&feature=related

:laugh:

Only issue is he might put some of the red sox players on the DL himself...

KingPosey
09-30-2011, 11:50 AM
They better not. They better not.

85BearsDefense
09-30-2011, 11:55 AM
C U B S

make it happen... oh **** we dont have a GM...

ManningToTyree
09-30-2011, 11:57 AM
That would be a mistake.

GrumpyOldMan
09-30-2011, 12:35 PM
How far from retirement is Varitek? I think he would make a great manager, but maybe he should be a bench coach for a year or 2 first.

uptownfan
09-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Francona and Red Sox to part ways per MLB Network

whysodevious
09-30-2011, 01:22 PM
i don't blame Francona for wanting to leave.... the team was depressing to be around. Just watching the yankees play the red sox.... id look at their dugout and it made me depressed.

Why did it depress you? Because they had a much better team than the Yankees?

akagiredsuns
09-30-2011, 01:47 PM
Umm.. Can the moderators please update this thread. Francona is officially out as manager of the Red Sox. It is confirmed. Epstein did not exercise his 2012 option and he is now in the open market, might be interested in the White Sox position seeing as he managed their minor league team back in the early 90s, but may also consider the Cubs too.

xnick5757
09-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Umm.. Can the moderators please update this thread. Francona is officially out as manager of the Red Sox. It is confirmed. Epstein did not exercise his 2012 option and he is now in the open market, might be interested in the White Sox position seeing as he managed their minor league team back in the early 90s, but may also consider the Cubs too.

they haven't made a decision yet....


BOSTON -- Terry Francona met with Boston Red Sox management on Friday to discuss his future as manager, but the team said a decision has not been reached.

Shortly after the meeting, Francona, owner John Henry and chairman Tom Werner left in separate cars. Francona left first, at 11:55 a.m. ET.

Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein released a statement Friday afternoon.

"John Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino, Ben Cherington and I met with Terry Francona this morning at Fenway Park to exchange thoughts and information on the 2011 season and discuss areas for improvement going forward," he said. "We all plan on taking some time to process the thoughts expressed in the meeting. There are no immediate plans for an announcement."

Despite the statement, Francona told staff members on Thursday that he will not be returning as manager, a club source told ESPNBoston.com's Gordon Edes on Friday.

Several other media outlets reported Friday that Francona would not return for a ninth season. He led the Red Sox to World Series titles in 2004, their first since 1918, and 2007.

The situation remained fluid Friday afternoon, with Edes reporting that Francona returned to Fenway Park shortly after Epstein's statement.

The team has 10 days from the end of its season to decide whether to retain the manager, whose contract has two option years at the club's discretion. Boston missed the playoffs despite leading the AL wild-card race by nine games on Sept. 4. It went 6-18 after that, ending with a 4-3 loss Wednesday night to the Baltimore Orioles.

At a news conference Thursday, Francona said he and general manager Theo Epstein had approached the topic of the option, but declined to comment on his future.

"It's still pretty fresh," Francona said, "and pretty raw."

Francona did acknowledge that this Red Sox team had issues that he thought affected its play. He spoke Thursday about a team meeting he called in Toronto in the aftermath of a 14-0 win on Sept. 6.

"I'm not sure if anybody knew, because there were some things I was worried about," he said. "I think we were spending too much energy on things that weren't putting our best foot forward toward winning. We spent a few minutes in the clubhouse that day, talking about that. There were some things that did concern me.

"Teams normally, as the season progresses, there are events that make you care about each other, and this club, it didn't always happen as much as I wanted it to. And I was frustrated by that."

The Boston Herald reported one divisive issue, citing sources as saying that pitchers were allowed to drink beer in the clubhouse on their off days. A Red Sox source not only confirmed to ESPNBoston.com that was the case, but also said that it "has been going on for two years."

jd25213
09-30-2011, 03:07 PM
^^^my guess is they still let him go though, even though nothing is offical yet

Big Zo
09-30-2011, 03:19 PM
Looks like Red Sox Nation is full of ungrateful little bastards. The guy helped bring the first championship in 86 years, and then another on 3 years later. I hope their next World Series drought is longer than the Cubs, and if you don't like that you can stick it in ya "caw" and "pawk" it in "Hawvad Yawd." :p

NYYrdbest
09-30-2011, 03:44 PM
It will be totally unfair to fire Terry Francona. Also, it will be very difficult to find a winning manager like him. I mean it took them 85 years to find the right skipper. Well, I guess Boston decline will be titanic...

BaustinSali08
09-30-2011, 03:48 PM
Looks like Red Sox Nation is full of ungrateful little bastards. The guy helped bring the first championship in 86 years, and then another on 3 years later. I hope their next World Series drought is longer than the Cubs, and if you don't like that you can stick it in ya "caw" and "pawk" it in "Hawvad Yawd." :p

How do the fans have anything to do with him being let go? Yeah Red Sox Nation makes front office decisions.....:rolleyes:

Randy Marsh
09-30-2011, 03:52 PM
Face it, he made some stupid decisions down the stretch. But he doesn't deserve to be fired, him and Theo are just the ones that everybody's blaming right now.

Big Zo
09-30-2011, 04:39 PM
How do the fans have anything to do with him being let go? Yeah Red Sox Nation makes front office decisions.....:rolleyes:

I never said they did. But if you were paying attention you'd see that quite a few people want him gone.

Towelie
09-30-2011, 04:43 PM
Umm.. Can the moderators please update this thread. Francona is officially out as manager of the Red Sox. It is confirmed. Epstein did not exercise his 2012 option and he is now in the open market, might be interested in the White Sox position seeing as he managed their minor league team back in the early 90s, but may also consider the Cubs too.

Care to show me the link that says that? Cause it doesn't exist.

bagwell368
09-30-2011, 04:52 PM
It will be totally unfair to fire Terry Francona.

Nothing like opinions/advice from out of town fans.... classic.

bagwell368
09-30-2011, 04:55 PM
theo should be the one leaving...how do u not have any kind of backup plan for when dice BB and buchholz get injured, and lackey just was terrible. he picked up nothing to try to back these guys up

Are you aware that there is a budget? Picked up nothing? A team on a 99/100 win pace on Sep 1st. Were you calling for that then, because I sure wasn't?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-30-2011, 05:18 PM
A local sports reporter is confirming it, but this is the same dude who reported that Tex to the Sox was a done deal so....

netsgiantsyanks
09-30-2011, 05:25 PM
he's gone, via espn

Ron!n
09-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Francona officially gone. Statements out. #RedSox #MLB

Ken Rosenthal

Bob Loblaw
09-30-2011, 05:28 PM
Angels GM also resigns

NE Sportsfan
09-30-2011, 05:30 PM
Going to be an interesting offseason

-Lavigne43-
09-30-2011, 05:37 PM
The statements


Terry Francona will not return as the manager of the Red Sox, the team announced just before 5:30 p.m. on Friday.

The statement from John Henry, Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino:

"We met with Terry Francona, Theo Epstein and Ben Cherington Friday morning to discuss the 2011 season, ways to improve the club in the future, and Tito's status. During the meeting, Tito, Theo and Ben agreed that the Red Sox would benefit from an improved clubhouse culture and higher standards in several areas. Tito said that after eight years here he was frustrated by his difficulty making an impact with the players, that a different voice was needed, and that it was time for him to move on. After taking time to reflect on Tito's sentiments, we agreed that it was best for the Red Sox not to exercise the option years on his contract.

"We have enormous respect, admiration and appreciation for Tito and the job that he did for eight years, including two World Series Championship seasons and five playoff appearances. His poise during the 2004 post-season was a key factor in the greatest comeback in baseball history, and his place in Red Sox history will never be forgotten. We wish him only the best going forward."

The statement from Theo Epstein:

"Tito and I didn't know each other when he was hired eight years ago, but over time we developed not only a great working relationship but also a personal friendship that will always be important to both of us. He proved to be an unflappable leader for our major league club, displaying consistency, calmness, hard work, thoughtfulness, a sense of humor, and faith in the players even at the most difficult of times. Without Tito's commitment over eight years, we would not be the organization we are today. Nobody at the Red Sox blames Tito for what happened at the end of this season; we own that as an organization. This year was certainly a difficult and draining one for him and for us. Ultimately, he decided that there were certain things that needed to be done that he couldn't do after eight years here, and that this team would benefit from hearing a new voice. While this may be true, his next team will benefit more than it knows from hearing Tito's voice. I will miss seeing Tito every day in the manager's office, and I wish him and his family nothing but the best in their next chapter."

The statement from Terry Francona:

"We met this morning to look back on the 2011 season and to consider the future of the Boston Red Sox, including my involvement with the club. I passed along my frustrations at my inability to effectively reach the players. After many conversations and much consideration, I ultimately felt that, out of respect to this team, it was time for me to move on. I've always maintained that it is not only the right, but the obligation, of ownership to have the right person doing this job. I told them that out of my enormous respect for this organization and the people in it, they may need to find a different voice to lead the team.

"In my eight seasons as manager of the Boston Red Sox, I have developed a tremendous appreciation for Red Sox Nation. This is a special place with some of the most knowledgeable and passionate fans in all of baseball. They packed Fenway Park for every game and because of them, I had a special sense of pride coming to work every day. I want to thank John, Tom, Larry and Theo for giving me the opportunity to manage this team through some of the most successful years in this franchise's history. I wish the entire organization and all of Red Sox Nation nothing but the very best."

http://soxblog.projo.com/2011/09/francona-finish-1.html

Makes it sound like it was Tito's decision

papipapsmanny
09-30-2011, 05:41 PM
change of culture will be good

DieHardCubFan
09-30-2011, 05:43 PM
cubs need him

fadedmario
09-30-2011, 05:44 PM
lol at Red Sox fans happy about this. You just lost one of the best managers in the game. Worst part for me is that he's probably going to the White Sox.

Tragedy
09-30-2011, 05:45 PM
Not Tito's fault that we blew it. So much ineffectiveness from certain guys as well as key injuries are what blew it.

If anyone is to blame other than the players, how about Epstein and his ridiculous deals with Crawford and Lackey? Just awful, awful stuff. It's not like those are the first high profiled free agents he signed that weren't good for us.

Big mistake letting Tito go - I'd prefer to cut the *******s off the team - Lackey and Varitek, mainly. I also think the Sox should dump Youkilis.

Unfortunately, though, they'll keep all of these people and hope a manager change does something. They'll be wrong on that.

gocubs2118
09-30-2011, 05:46 PM
There are two teams in Chicago that will gladly take him.

Tragedy
09-30-2011, 05:48 PM
There are two teams in Chicago that will gladly take him.
And I hope they do. Each with great histories, I hope he can go to either of these teams and make an immediate impact. I'd love to see him help the Cubs win their first WS since 1908 - That would stick it to the ignorant Sox fans who don't think we should have brought him back.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The Red Sox and Tito are trying to spin this as if it was Tito's decision so he can still look good and get a nice contract elsewhere, and so the fans of Boston don't get upset with the Red Sox. In reality, I think the Sox wanted Tito gone.

StayOnBoard
09-30-2011, 05:52 PM
Not Tito's fault that we blew it. So much ineffectiveness from certain guys as well as key injuries are what blew it.

If anyone is to blame other than the players, how about Epstein and his ridiculous deals with Crawford and Lackey? Just awful, awful stuff. It's not like those are the first high profiled free agents he signed that weren't good for us.

Big mistake letting Tito go - I'd prefer to cut the *******s off the team - Lackey and Varitek, mainly. I also think the Sox should dump Youkilis.

Unfortunately, though, they'll keep all of these people and hope a manager change does something. They'll be wrong on that.

This ^



And I hope they do. Each with great histories, I hope he can go to either of these teams and make an immediate impact. I'd love to see him help the Cubs win their first WS since 1908 - That would stick it to the ignorant Sox fans who don't think we should have brought him back.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The Red Sox and Tito are trying to spin this as if it was Tito's decision so he can still look good and get a nice contract elsewhere, and so the fans of Boston don't get upset with the Red Sox. In reality, I think the Sox wanted Tito gone.

and this ^

NE Sportsfan
09-30-2011, 05:53 PM
Well on the bright side, we still have Crawford for 6 more seasons.

ne3xchamps
09-30-2011, 05:55 PM
lol at Red Sox fans happy about this. You just lost one of the best managers in the game. Worst part for me is that he's probably going to the White Sox.

He was to complacent with his players man. You need a manager that will light a fire under some ***** when they slack.

fadedmario
09-30-2011, 06:04 PM
He was to complacent with his players man. You need a manager that will light a fire under some ***** when they slack.

You watch the Red Sox more than me - so if that's what you think your team needs - I'll take your word for it. One thing I know for certain though - Francona is a hell of a manager.

1903
09-30-2011, 06:13 PM
My comment on Francona is pretty much true but I did not sugarcoat it.

Towelie
09-30-2011, 06:17 PM
lol at Red Sox fans happy about this. You just lost one of the best managers in the game. Worst part for me is that he's probably going to the White Sox.

It's been said no chance he goes to the white sox they won't spend on it. It's a fresh start and Tito was very over-rated. This changes really nothing but gives a fresh start. Hale is who I'm hoping takes over.

fadedmario
09-30-2011, 06:17 PM
It's been said no chance he goes to the white sox they won't spend on it.

Didn't know that - thanks :)

Towelie
09-30-2011, 06:19 PM
You watch the Red Sox more than me - so if that's what you think your team needs - I'll take your word for it. One thing I know for certain though - Francona is a hell of a manager.

Lets hear why he's so amazing, cause I can list many reasons how he messed up this year.

http://www.overthemonster.com/2011/9/30/2460105/on-terry-francona

This is pretty much spot on for me.

Towelie
09-30-2011, 06:22 PM
The White Sox are looking for a manager, but Heyman hears Francona isn't high on Chicago's list of candidates.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/red-sox-francona-to-part-ways.html


There's a non-zero chance that Francona lands with the White Sox, but Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter) that they won't pay big money for a manager unless it's Tony LaRussa.

MagicBucsSox
09-30-2011, 06:27 PM
Espn is starting rumors of LaRussa to the Sox for his pitching knowledge

Towelie
09-30-2011, 06:38 PM
Espn is starting rumors of LaRussa to the Sox for his pitching knowledge

No chance this happens. Sorry but thats a wet dream.

misterd
09-30-2011, 06:42 PM
Wasn't this the same guy that was being praised last year for keeping his team in the race?

I dunno - from an outsiders perspective he seemed like a good fit, and managed the team well. I get wanting to go in a new direction, but given Dice K, Lackey and Crawford (plus the whole injury thing), I have to think Epstein is more to blame than Francona.

Any Sox fans want to tell me what I'm missing (and I don't mean that sarcastically)?

1903
09-30-2011, 06:47 PM
I wonder who lit the fire under the Sox *** after their early season slump? The whole "he did not light a fire/not intense enough" excuse is just that. Guy was praised for keeping an injured team in it last season and now some Sox fans think it's the right thing.

bosox3431
09-30-2011, 07:25 PM
Well I believe in the press conference yesterday, they said that the locker room was divided and Cliques had formed. I think a manager has try and avoid those type of things. Didn't really want him gone, but not sad to see it either.

"Ace"ves
09-30-2011, 07:25 PM
Good for Francona... he admitted that his guys didn't come together when he expected, didn't get pumped up for certain games like he expected... team just was too lackadaisical

Towelie
09-30-2011, 07:36 PM
So turns out it seems Tito was the one who didn't want to come back. Interesting but glad he can admit it.

todu82
09-30-2011, 08:19 PM
I think he'll have a job again soon (The White Sox job perhaps). He's a good manager and this Red Sox fan wishes him all the best in the future.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-30-2011, 08:19 PM
Tito looks like he wants to take a break from baseball next season.

keymax
09-30-2011, 08:20 PM
It's been said no chance he goes to the white sox they won't spend on it.

They(White Sox and Bulls) usually don't give out big money deals to managers and coaches. But Francona might be a different story. He has ties to this organization and Jerry Reinsdorf has deepest respect for Tito.If LaRussa is available, they will try to get him. But since Reinsdorf and TLR are very close he probably already knows if he wants to stay in STL. So Francona might be an outlier and the White Sox might try to get him.
Attendance is dwindling since being a disappointement for 3 years in a row and I can see the Sox bring in a high-profile manager to show the fanbase that they are trying to win.

AddiX
09-30-2011, 08:26 PM
This ain't his damn fault the team fell apart. They were one of the best teams in baseball for a large part of this season. You ca say all you want about what happened, but the pitching staff fell apart And there's nothing franc can do about that. Everyone got shelled it seemed.

If the guy wins one more game and makes playoffs he's still probably there coach next year. But because he didnt, now hes no longer good enough to be there coach? This just seems stupid IMO, replacing a coach under these circumstances in boston is not going to be fun.

This looks like a major mistake IMO.

KingPosey
09-30-2011, 08:33 PM
Wow, what a STUPID move by the Sox.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-30-2011, 08:37 PM
Wow, what a STUPID move by the Sox.

Tito stepped down, he didn't get fired.

keymax
09-30-2011, 08:42 PM
Found this on a Sox board from a guy close to the Boston media:
WBZ-FM believes he has an agreement with JR to manage the White Sox.

Take it with a grain of salt though

awesomeovie8
09-30-2011, 09:07 PM
IMO I always felt he was overrated. He really struggled in the NL and regardless of which baseball you feel is better, the NL certainly has more managerial decisions in-game.

ManningToTyree
09-30-2011, 09:24 PM
It won't take long for him to land another job. I wonder who the Red Sox are high on to replace him?

StayOnBoard
09-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Tito stepped down, he didn't get fired.

:rolleyes:

bagwell368
09-30-2011, 10:22 PM
Wasn't this the same guy that was being praised last year for keeping his team in the race?

I dunno - from an outsiders perspective he seemed like a good fit, and managed the team well. I get wanting to go in a new direction, but given Dice K, Lackey and Crawford (plus the whole injury thing), I have to think Epstein is more to blame than Francona.

Any Sox fans want to tell me what I'm missing (and I don't mean that sarcastically)?

He's a good manager for teams that are intense and prepared and ready to go. However that requires professionalism. Look at how they started, they were hitting the links instead of hitting the ball in the cages. Look at the injuries (again), look at how fat Beckett was. Look at the SP's hanging out and drinking beers in the clubhouse during games. Look at all the sloppy errors they made in September. They didn't belong in the playoffs and thankfully for the sake of the team in the long run they didn't make it.

He was too soft, damn right the players loved him. He protected vets too much. And then, in mid season he lost the team.

The trainers, medical staff, GM, and Manager all deserve blame. Francona's contract is over, they have to make changes they did. Theo only has one year left, he better get his part of it right or they go for him next, or he just leaves for somewhere else where he can score Team President to go with GM.

gcoll
09-30-2011, 10:35 PM
Wasn't this the same guy that was being praised last year for keeping his team in the race?

I dunno - from an outsiders perspective he seemed like a good fit, and managed the team well. I get wanting to go in a new direction, but given Dice K, Lackey and Crawford (plus the whole injury thing), I have to think Epstein is more to blame than Francona.

Any Sox fans want to tell me what I'm missing (and I don't mean that sarcastically)?
Based on the story I'm hearing, it was Tito's decision.

knicks_champ
09-30-2011, 10:53 PM
Don't blame Tito for leaving he'll probably take a year off ....and on the plus side he doesn't have to look at John Lackey ugly face every day

:clap:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-30-2011, 10:59 PM
:rolleyes:

I don't know why you rolled your eyes, just watch his press conference. The man said it himself.

bcc
09-30-2011, 11:09 PM
I think, in the final analysis, it'll be shown that ownership was not fully in Tito's corner and he knew that. All this Epstein vs. Francona talk but for all we know, Theo might've been the one guy that genuinely wanted him back.
It's no surprise the RS players loved the guy, especially the veterans. And IMO, he loved them to a fault.
The Wakefield Traveling 200 Win Circus was absurd and got to the point that it was detrimental to the postseason push. When it became obvious Bucholz wasn't coming back, Aceves should've been in that rotation immediately. It was Lester, Beckett and then nothing even remotely reliable.
Bard lost 4 games in September. It was obvous to anyone watching he was in a bad way but Tito just kept sending him out for the 8th inning.
Francona handled the media and the pressure well and was popular with his players but IMO, he didn't demand enough accountability. He was too busy "backing his guys" and when things began to unravel whatever he was saying was not getting thru.
One things for sure, as any RS fan will tell you; night in and night out, his in-game decision making was average.

bagwell368
09-30-2011, 11:13 PM
The press conference the day before seemed more honest and less scripted. Francona did seem to indicate that there were some issues and frustrations with the players.

With a two time WS winning Manager in Boston you can bet the owners and top brass don't want Francona's blood on their hands, the fans would never forgive them.

To me, it's clear both sides had had it with the other, and since Francona wasn't being "fired" they agreed to cut the drama, and give as much face saving as possible to both sides.

#24
09-30-2011, 11:14 PM
I think, in the final analysis, it'll be shown that ownership was not fully in Tito's corner and he knew that. All this Epstein vs. Francona talk but for all we know, Theo might've been the one guy that genuinely wanted him back.
It's no surprise the RS players loved the guy, especially the veterans. And IMO, he loved them to a fault.
The Wakefield Traveling 200 Win Circus was absurd and got to the point that it was detrimental to the postseason push. When it became obvious Bucholz wasn't coming back, Aceves should've been in that rotation immediately. It was Lester, Beckett and then nothing even remotely reliable.
Bard lost 4 games in September. It was obvous to anyone watching he was in a bad way but Tito just kept sending him out for the 8th inning.
Francona handled the media and the pressure well and was popular with his players but IMO, he didn't demand enough accountability. He was too busy "backing his guys" and when things unraveled....
One things for sure, as any RS fan will tell you; night in and night out, his in-game decision making was average.
Though this may be true, it's something that would be an asset to a winning team, and only a liability when you lose. Especially in a market like Boston.

Personally I think they should have "parted ways" with Theo the golden boy. Wasn't Tito's fault their pitchers sucked.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-01-2011, 12:26 AM
Seems like this team was full of over priced, lazy, entitled players..a team that also had a bunch of cliques

This team reminded me of a sox team pre 03, A team that showed very little emotion, a team that simply didn't care, and a team that is where it should be..home watching a young and hungry Tampa Bay team compete for the ultimate prize...

This team is seriously lacking leaders..Heck, its gotten too the point where even "captain varitek" was in a clique with beckett & lackey. The only leader on the team from the looks of it was Pedroia

iam brett favre
10-01-2011, 01:28 AM
It was definitely his fault that Carl Crawford sucked, Adrian Gonzalez is soft and plays with no heart, and John Lackey is a scum bag. Good move Boston :up:

Kannon81
10-01-2011, 01:37 AM
still can't believe 2 teams blew 8 1/2 game lead.

StayOnBoard
10-01-2011, 02:31 AM
I don't know why you rolled your eyes, just watch his press conference. The man said it himself.

See below


The press conference the day before seemed more honest and less scripted. Francona did seem to indicate that there were some issues and frustrations with the players.

With a two time WS winning Manager in Boston you can bet the owners and top brass don't want Francona's blood on their hands, the fans would never forgive them.

To me, it's clear both sides had it with the other, and since Francona wasn't being "fired" they agreed to cut the drama, and give as much face saving as possible to both sides.

Exactly! ^ If anyone thinks this was 'Tito's decision' they're delusional.

I will say, Boston played the PR move very well.

misterd
10-01-2011, 03:36 AM
He's a good manager for teams that are intense and prepared and ready to go. However that requires professionalism. Look at how they started, they were hitting the links instead of hitting the ball in the cages. Look at the injuries (again), look at how fat Beckett was. Look at the SP's hanging out and drinking beers in the clubhouse during games. Look at all the sloppy errors they made in September. They didn't belong in the playoffs and thankfully for the sake of the team in the long run they didn't make it.

He was too soft, damn right the players loved him. He protected vets too much. And then, in mid season he lost the team.

The trainers, medical staff, GM, and Manager all deserve blame. Francona's contract is over, they have to make changes they did. Theo only has one year left, he better get his part of it right or they go for him next, or he just leaves for somewhere else where he can score Team President to go with GM.

Thanks much. Been a busy day and I didn't have much time to catch up one everything. If he really was not reaching the players, then a change in blood is demanded. It also means that Theo, if he stays, needs to put more focus on the character of the clubhouse.

bagwell368
10-01-2011, 08:13 AM
Wasn't Tito's fault their pitchers sucked.

It sure was. He is a Manager - that means in charge. The pitchers and players didn't get in good shape off season, lagged in ST and fell apart in September complete with the SP's pounding down beers in the clubhouse on nights that they were not pitching.

If his pitching coach was slack, or the trainers, he has to look at the guys with a critical enough eye to see it and do it. He lost his team - there is no way around it. His way of doing things came back to bite him.

It was a disgrace and somebody has to pay. In this case Francona. More heads to follow.

bagwell368
10-01-2011, 08:17 AM
It was definitely his fault that Carl Crawford sucked, Adrian Gonzalez is soft and plays with no heart, and John Lackey is a scum bag. Good move Boston :up:

Gonzalez had off season shoulder surgery, a delayed ST, and had his best season of his career. It will IMO be revealed that his shoulder went again on him mid season.

Crawford is on Theo it was clear to anyone paying attention that he's not fit for the Boston market or Fenway.

Lackey is on Theo too - he avoided getting sucked into the bidding war for Holliday which is the guy they needed, and took the booby prize home. But the mellow/lazy clubhouse allowed Lackey to slack off to become the useless bum he is now.

Towelie
10-01-2011, 09:47 AM
See below



Exactly! ^ If anyone thinks this was 'Tito's decision' they're delusional.

I will say, Boston played the PR move very well.

Watching the press conference I'm not so sure about it as I was prior. He seemed very exhausted, and I think he just had enough of the spotlight and in Boston. There's no real reason for Tito to lie, regardless of how he left he would have had another job with ton of people wanting him. If Theo and co wanted to go in a different way they would have said that. Tito says that when he felt he couldn't do the job right anymore he'd step down, and he said thats why he did it. Believe it or not, I'm going to choose to believe what is said. Both said Theo asked him to give it a couple weeks to think it over, and he didn't. That being said it really doesn't matter who's choice cause whats done is done.

Victory Faust
10-01-2011, 10:03 AM
So ... you can't build a team based on stats only, and must also take intangibles into account?



Go figger. Who'da thunk it?

mttwlsn16
10-01-2011, 10:17 AM
tito deserves to stay, guy is a great manager

theo should be the one being booted for not finding a backup plan for diceBB/buchholz injury and lackey being terrible

Jamiecballer
10-01-2011, 10:24 AM
question for Red Sox fans. do you guys think if Farrell hadn't left last year that

a) the pitching wouldn't have fallen apart as badly as it did and the Red Sox would have still made the post-season?

and

b) assuming the Red Sox still miss the post-season is Farrell your new manager?

StayOnBoard
10-01-2011, 10:41 AM
Watching the press conference I'm not so sure about it as I was prior. He seemed very exhausted, and I think he just had enough of the spotlight and in Boston. There's no real reason for Tito to lie, regardless of how he left he would have had another job with ton of people wanting him. If Theo and co wanted to go in a different way they would have said that. Tito says that when he felt he couldn't do the job right anymore he'd step down, and he said thats why he did it. Believe it or not, I'm going to choose to believe what is said. Both said Theo asked him to give it a couple weeks to think it over, and he didn't. That being said it really doesn't matter who's choice cause whats done is done.

Of course he's exhausted, his team just went through one of the biggest collapses in MLB history.

Henry and co pushed him out the door and the whole press release was about saving face. We can certainly agree to disagree as I have my doubts the real truth will ever come out.... I would bet my LIFE that it wasn't 100% Tito saying "meh, you know - I don't think this is a fit for me" - I would say it was more Henry saying "You know what, someone is going to be a scapegoat for this - how do you want to handle this?"

It's obviously not just me who thinks this - Gorden Edes who's the Boston reporter out of ESPN said the exact same thing, and I can dig up more "insiders" who will share my opinion. Doesn't mean (we) are correct, just IMO that's the most likely scenario.

Towelie
10-01-2011, 11:09 AM
Of course he's exhausted, his team just went through one of the biggest collapses in MLB history.

Henry and co pushed him out the door and the whole press release was about saving face. We can certainly agree to disagree as I have my doubts the real truth will ever come out.... I would bet my LIFE that it wasn't 100% Tito saying "meh, you know - I don't think this is a fit for me" - I would say it was more Henry saying "You know what, someone is going to be a scapegoat for this - how do you want to handle this?"

It's obviously not just me who thinks this - Gorden Edes who's the Boston reporter out of ESPN said the exact same thing, and I can dig up more "insiders" who will share my opinion. Doesn't mean (we) are correct, just IMO that's the most likely scenario.

I do think it was more mutual then most, but in reality this makes for a far better story and thats what people thrive off of. If it was really mutual then nobody would care nearly as much. Tito is a good manager, but a change was in order. This team needs to get cleaned up and I just hope Theo isn't part of that clean up cause he's a great GM.

I can't stand Edes, he spouts ******** whenever he can open his mouth. Although Rosenthal is no better he does say it's a mutual split.

aztr0
10-01-2011, 11:12 AM
It was time to move on. The players have heard all of his messages and tuned out, as it was getting old.

StayOnBoard
10-01-2011, 11:15 AM
I do think it was more mutual then most, but in reality this makes for a far better story and thats what people thrive off of. If it was really mutual then nobody would care nearly as much. Tito is a good manager, but a change was in order. This team needs to get cleaned up and I just hope Theo isn't part of that clean up cause he's a great GM.

I can't stand Edes, he spouts ******** whenever he can open his mouth. Although Rosenthal is no better he does say it's a mutual split.


I really think the Theo is a "great GM" comments are currently overblown.

I thought this as well before the season started.... but his last 3-4 (5-6?) free agent signings has been Jim Hendry terrible. Not sure how anyone can say he's a great GM at this point in time.... he's a decent GM, but great GMs don't make so many bad signings in a row, especially such high profile ones.

That said, there's no doubt he put Boston on the map and made them a serious contender, so I get where you are coming from. I just think he needs to redeem himself this offseason and make smart signings, something he hasn't done in multiple years (and it has showed in the standings).

Towelie
10-01-2011, 11:28 AM
I really think the Theo is a "great GM" comments are currently overblown.

I thought this as well before the season started.... but his last 3-4 (5-6?) free agent signings has been Jim Hendry terrible. Not sure how anyone can say he's a great GM at this point in time.... he's a decent GM, but great GMs don't make so many bad signings in a row, especially such high profile ones.

That said, there's no doubt he put Boston on the map and made them a serious contender, so I get where you are coming from. I just think he needs to redeem himself this offseason and make smart signings, something he hasn't done in multiple years (and it has showed in the standings).

FA signings are not a indication of him being a bad GM. He's been responsible for dealing with Manny, making two championship teams. Has he gotten himself in a hole? 100% he has, and if he's great he will get out of it. He's been able to stock a farm system and get the trades done to make this team better. Crawford will prove to be worth it, one year vs his whole career says he will for me.

When Lackey signed everyone was saying it was the best deal of the off season, nobody saw Lackey's personal issues with his divorce and wife's cancer happening. But we will see what happens with him. Beltre was a great signing, Mike Lowell worked out well, Scuturo has been amazing. So it's not 5-6 at all. It's the last two, and Crawford can be argued. Lackey hasn't worked out. Aceves has been amazing as well.

Has Theo made mistakes? Yes, but name me a GM who hasn't and has been a GM for more then a single off season.

NYKnicks4511
10-01-2011, 11:42 AM
The collapse was awful, we all know - but speaking as a NYY fan, the Bosox are firing the man who brought them 2 championships within a decade after an 86 year drought.

Not smart.

Towelie
10-01-2011, 11:50 AM
The collapse was awful, we all know - but speaking as a NYY fan, the Bosox are firing the man who brought them 2 championships within a decade after an 86 year drought.

Not smart.

He didn't bring them. He was given a team who made the teams. The Yankee's did the same thing 3 years ago worked out horrible for them?

StayOnBoard
10-01-2011, 12:44 PM
FA signings are not a indication of him being a bad GM.

Actually, I think that's half the definition of being a bad GM. I also didn't say he was bad, I said he wasn't great - and he's not.




He's been responsible for dealing with Manny, making two championship teams.



I'd safely argue Francona dealt with Manny more than Theo did.



Has he gotten himself in a hole? 100% he has, and if he's great he will get out of it. He's been able to stock a farm system and get the trades done to make this team better.


Stock the farm system? How so? The Sox farm system has fallen from a top 5 in baseball to middle of the pack. Their farm is very average right now, with very few blue chip prospects. There's some guys there I do like - but they're no where near that of the Rays, KC or the Jays.



Crawford will prove to be worth it, one year vs his whole career says he will for me.


Bags had a great write up on the Boston forum which explains this very well. Crawford is on the downside of his career, by the end of the deal - you'll be saying how awful it was. We can revisit it then, as now it's just opinion one way or the other.



When Lackey signed everyone was saying it was the best deal of the off season, nobody saw Lackey's personal issues with his divorce and wife's cancer happening.


No - nobody say the personal issues but it was far from the best deal of the offseason. ****, it wasn't even close - and I said that at the time too... I knew that deal was going to blow up in their face, didn't expect Crawford to as well - that was an added, unexpected bonus :)



But we will see what happens with him. Beltre was a great signing, Mike Lowell worked out well, Scuturo has been amazing. So it's not 5-6 at all.


Beltre was a great signing.... EXCEPT.... it was only one year, and they didn't even make the playoffs that year. Texas was smart and signed him long term, exactly what Boston should have done (except, the signed the "better" player in Crawford instead). Which worked out really well, obviously....

Mike Lowell was good the first few years but then was injured - he also wasn't a free agent signing, he came via trade with Beckett for Hanley Ramirez (which, btw, wasn't even a Theo move).

Scutaro is a solid regular but nothing spectacular and likely not worth the big contract he was given.



It's the last two, and Crawford can be argued. Lackey hasn't worked out. Aceves has been amazing as well.


Aceves has been amazing - no doubt... great signing.



Has Theo made mistakes? Yes, but name me a GM who hasn't and has been a GM for more then a single off season.


Of course, we aren't talking about that. But he's had over 200 million dollars in mistakes, in a very short amount of time. On TWO players.... TWO. Yes, that's certainly the makeup of a top 5 GM in baseball - when a guy in his division has brought his team to the playoffs 3 out of the past 4 years, and has a payroll of 1/4th to work with.

Where are all the Boston fans now telling me how "there's no way in hell the Rays can compete against the Red Sox". I would like to revisit that discussion.

Bos_Sports4Life
10-01-2011, 01:08 PM
Has Theo made mistakes? Yes, but name me a GM who hasn't and has been a GM for more then a single off season.

Theo has handed out a combined 12 yrs and 224.5 Million for Lackey/Crawford..And what was there combined WAR? 0.1

Hes also made an abundent of other mistakes

* Lugo- 4 yrs/36 Mill

* Renteria- 4 yrs/40 mill

* Matt Clement- 4 yrs/40 Mill (bad luck as he got hit, but either way, still didn't produce)

* Dice-k- 6 yrs/52 mill with 51.1 posting fee (he had some solid yrs, but deff not worth the money)

* Jd Drew-5 yrs/70 mill- (Some yrs he was worth the money, some yrs he wasn't)


Theo did a good job keeping onto the prospects in years past (Lester, Ellsbury, clay ect) Which has paid off greatly and did an overall good job with the farm. But his fa signings has been sub par since 2004

Tragedy
10-01-2011, 01:23 PM
question for Red Sox fans. do you guys think if Farrell hadn't left last year that

a) the pitching wouldn't have fallen apart as badly as it did and the Red Sox would have still made the post-season?

and

b) assuming the Red Sox still miss the post-season is Farrell your new manager?
I'm not sure on either fronts. I never liked Farrell as pitching coach, but maybe he was better than I thought based on what I saw from our pitching last year, and specifically the last month or so.

Towelie
10-01-2011, 01:30 PM
Actually, I think that's half the definition of being a bad GM. I also didn't say he was bad, I said he wasn't great - and he's not.

Not even close to half of being a GM is signing FA.



I'd safely argue Francona dealt with Manny more than Theo did.


Dealing with him personally but from a management aspect many time Theo had to have been involved, and trading him for Jason Bay was amazing.



Stock the farm system? How so? The Sox farm system has fallen from a top 5 in baseball to middle of the pack. Their farm is very average right now, with very few blue chip prospects. There's some guys there I do like - but they're no where near that of the Rays, KC or the Jays.

In 8 years he's run his draft he's gotten. Papelbon, Pedrioa, Ellsbury, Bard, Buchholz. Thats pretty impressive. He stocked it enough for us to have those guys and be able to trade for Agon. Considering before the trade we had a top 7-10 and then dropped to middle in. After this years draft and promotions we will be top 10 again this offseason.



Bags had a great write up on the Boston forum which explains this very well. Crawford is on the downside of his career, by the end of the deal - you'll be saying how awful it was. We can revisit it then, as now it's just opinion one way or the other.

I've read it, but he's never been a fan of him. He's allowed to not like a player, but he's performed his whole career and I believe he will.



No - nobody say the personal issues but it was far from the best deal of the offseason. ****, it wasn't even close - and I said that at the time too... I knew that deal was going to blow up in their face, didn't expect Crawford to as well - that was an added, unexpected bonus :)

for instance.

According to Sports Illustrated's Jon Heyman, the Red Sox and John Lackey have agreed to a five-year, $85 million deal.
If true, this is a great move for the Red Sox -- signing a top-tier starter to a market-value contract while snatching him from a fellow American League contender. Lackey figures to be Boston's No. 3 starter. The right-hander went 11-8 with a 3.83 ERA in 27 starts for the Angels in 2009.

This is just one of many links I can provide at the time of the signing nobody thought this was going to happen.



Beltre was a great signing.... EXCEPT.... it was only one year, and they didn't even make the playoffs that year. Texas was smart and signed him long term, exactly what Boston should have done (except, the signed the "better" player in Crawford instead). Which worked out really well, obviously....

Mike Lowell was good the first few years but then was injured - he also wasn't a free agent signing, he came via trade with Beckett for Hanley Ramirez (which, btw, wasn't even a Theo move).

Scutaro is a solid regular but nothing spectacular and likely not worth the big contract he was given.

Aceves has been amazing - no doubt... great signing.

Beltre was a risk due to his horrible years in the M's, plus with that long term deal in place we don't get Agon. So I was very happy with this and a Type A pick we got from him. So no the one year was perfect.

Yes he was part of the deal he was on leave but to say Theo wasn't part of it I don't believe.

Big contract? For Scuturo? 5 and 6 million for him when he's been worth 22.5 million WAR bucks. So yeah, he's been well worth it. 5.3 WAR in two years says he's been well worth it.



Of course, we aren't talking about that. But he's had over 200 million dollars in mistakes, in a very short amount of time. On TWO players.... TWO. Yes, that's certainly the makeup of a top 5 GM in baseball - when a guy in his division has brought his team to the playoffs 3 out of the past 4 years, and has a payroll of 1/4th to work with.

Where are all the Boston fans now telling me how "there's no way in hell the Rays can compete against the Red Sox". I would like to revisit that discussion.

He has a payroll of that cause of a decade of being a last place team and drafting well. Yes the farm system is stacked, but you don't think the Longo's of the world aren't going to want a bigger deal? It's going to happen. Price, Shields and others. 40 million isn't going to keep happening. Plain and simple.

Again saying Crawford is a mistake after one season is a mistake. If he plays out his contract well then it's not a mistake at all, there's not point in saying it's been 200 million plus Lackey has had some worth in a Red Sox uniform as you can see by his WAR value as well. I fully trust in Theo he's gotten us two championships and thats impossible to deny. Without him we wouldn't have won them IMO.

infernoscurse
10-01-2011, 01:40 PM
paparrazis took pics (http://nomaas.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/redsoxclubhouse.jpg) inside their clubhouse :D

StayOnBoard
10-01-2011, 02:15 PM
Not even close to half of being a GM is signing FA.

Not even close? You have the draft, trades, free agencys and the international market. He's fantastic in the draft, very good at trading and not very good at all on the last two.




Dealing with him personally but from a management aspect many time Theo had to have been involved, and trading him for Jason Bay was amazing.



I agree - trading him for Bay was a fantastic move. Again, I'm not arguing Theo is a "bad" GM - I'm arguing he's not a "great" GM. Let's make sure we are clear.



In 8 years he's run his draft he's gotten. Papelbon, Pedrioa, Ellsbury, Bard, Buchholz. Thats pretty impressive. He stocked it enough for us to have those guys and be able to trade for Agon.


Agreed - he's fantastic during the draft - I also liked his 2011 draft but it's way too early to tell.



Considering before the trade we had a top 7-10 and then dropped to middle in. After this years draft and promotions we will be top 10 again this offseason.


Speculation. The Red Sox were also going to be in the playoffs, maybe even win the division. We don't know where Boston will rank next offseason - we can only speak on what has currently happened, and currently their farm system is very average.



I've read it, but he's never been a fan of him. He's allowed to not like a player, but he's performed his whole career and I believe he will.


We can agree to disagree here - I don't think Crawford is very good now at all. I thought so last offseason, I actually liked the move (not the money, but I thought he was a great player). I was wrong - it happens... After crunching the numbers and watching him play, he can't handle Boston and probably shouldn't have signed with them. People might chew me out for this, but he might actually be worse going forward, especially at the end of his contract. He relies on his wheels - the guy had 18 stolen bases this year. EIGHTEEN! For reference, Aaron Hill had 21 this past season and batted under .250. Crawford can't get on base, and he has been terrible defensively.... not to mention how his mind must be turning this, you don't think he'll press again next year knowing how the fans/media feel about it now?




for instance.

According to Sports Illustrated's Jon Heyman, the Red Sox and John Lackey have agreed to a five-year, $85 million deal.
If true, this is a great move for the Red Sox -- signing a top-tier starter to a market-value contract while snatching him from a fellow American League contender. Lackey figures to be Boston's No. 3 starter. The right-hander went 11-8 with a 3.83 ERA in 27 starts for the Angels in 2009.


Heyman goes with the flow, he would never rip Boston for signing lackey. Just because a media person says it was a good signing proves nothing. I can dig up old posts and emails I've had with people who ripped this move at the time, does that mean we're smarter than Heyman (well, maybe that's true) ;) .





This is just one of many links I can provide at the time of the signing nobody thought this was going to happen.



I agree - I didn't see it happening either.




Beltre was a risk due to his horrible years in the M's, plus with that long term deal in place we don't get Agon. So I was very happy with this and a Type A pick we got from him. So no the one year was perfect.



Beltre would have been one of the more productive hitters in Boston's lineup if he was there - and would have played great D at 3rd. I think they could have still gotten AGonz (at the expense of Ortiz) if they really wanted to, but your right, they probably wouldn't have gone after him if they resigned Beltre. That said, we're comparing AGonz to Beltre and I'm not sure why... shouldn't we be comparing Beltre to Crawford?



Yes he was part of the deal he was on leave but to say Theo wasn't part of it I don't believe.


:confused:

Not sure what you're talking about, I've read up on this in great detail.... Theo wasn't even in the office when that trade was made, just admit this move was done when he wasn't at his post.



Big contract? For Scuturo? 5 and 6 million for him when he's been worth 22.5 million WAR bucks. So yeah, he's been well worth it. 5.3 WAR in two years says he's been well worth it.


Ya your right, I take my statement back Scutaro is a good player at that cost. It still doesn't excuse Lackey and Crawford though, no matter how you want to try and spin it. :)



He has a payroll of that cause of a decade of being a last place team and drafting well. Yes the farm system is stacked, but you don't think the Longo's of the world aren't going to want a bigger deal? It's going to happen. Price, Shields and others. 40 million isn't going to keep happening. Plain and simple.


I've heard so many excuses from the Red Sox fans about the Rays I'm honestly tired of answering it. They have Price till 2015+ and Shields will probably be traded for a Kings Ransom in the offseason, allowing them to go into a year with Price, Hellboy, Matt Moore, Neimann and Davis with their starting rotation. Terrible :)



Again saying Crawford is a mistake after one season is a mistake. If he plays out his contract well then it's not a mistake at all, there's not point in saying it's been 200 million plus Lackey has had some worth in a Red Sox uniform as you can see by his WAR value as well. I fully trust in Theo he's gotten us two championships and thats impossible to deny. Without him we wouldn't have won them IMO.

You're probably right, without Theo AND Francona, you probably don't have two championships. I give him his due.... but he's not a great (ie: top 5 GM) is baseball, he's just not. I'm sorry, the rose colored glasses aren't the same ones the rest of us see through. Has he made some great draft picks and fantastic trades? Yep... but he's made some pretty awful ones too - and if he was a GM on another team (that didn't have a $150 million dollar payroll) he would have been fired long ago.

An example from one of your fellow fans


Hes also made an abundent of other mistakes

* Lugo- 4 yrs/36 Mill

* Renteria- 4 yrs/40 mill

* Matt Clement- 4 yrs/40 Mill (bad luck as he got hit, but either way, still didn't produce)

* Dice-k- 6 yrs/52 mill with 51.1 posting fee (he had some solid yrs, but deff not worth the money)

* Jd Drew-5 yrs/70 mill- (Some yrs he was worth the money, some yrs he wasn't)

* John Lacky - 5 yrs/82.5 million

* Carl Crawford - 7 yrs/142 million

Azzacadabra
10-01-2011, 02:36 PM
paparrazis took pics (http://nomaas.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/redsoxclubhouse.jpg) inside their clubhouse :D

Ok even as a Sox fan that's pretty ****ing funny. All that aside I'm pretty bummed that Terry's leaving/mutual parting. He seemed pretty deflated at the press conference and it made me pretty sad. I'm gonna miss him.

infernoscurse
10-01-2011, 02:39 PM
um, baiting?

no Mr 9 posts, its called humor :)

Towelie
10-01-2011, 03:33 PM
Not even close? You have the draft, trades, free agencys and the international market. He's fantastic in the draft, very good at trading and not very good at all on the last two.



I agree - trading him for Bay was a fantastic move. Again, I'm not arguing Theo is a "bad" GM - I'm arguing he's not a "great" GM. Let's make sure we are clear.



Agreed - he's fantastic during the draft - I also liked his 2011 draft but it's way too early to tell.



Speculation. The Red Sox were also going to be in the playoffs, maybe even win the division. We don't know where Boston will rank next offseason - we can only speak on what has currently happened, and currently their farm system is very average.



We can agree to disagree here - I don't think Crawford is very good now at all. I thought so last offseason, I actually liked the move (not the money, but I thought he was a great player). I was wrong - it happens... After crunching the numbers and watching him play, he can't handle Boston and probably shouldn't have signed with them. People might chew me out for this, but he might actually be worse going forward, especially at the end of his contract. He relies on his wheels - the guy had 18 stolen bases this year. EIGHTEEN! For reference, Aaron Hill had 21 this past season and batted under .250. Crawford can't get on base, and he has been terrible defensively.... not to mention how his mind must be turning this, you don't think he'll press again next year knowing how the fans/media feel about it now?




Heyman goes with the flow, he would never rip Boston for signing lackey. Just because a media person says it was a good signing proves nothing. I can dig up old posts and emails I've had with people who ripped this move at the time, does that mean we're smarter than Heyman (well, maybe that's true) ;) .




I agree - I didn't see it happening either.



Beltre would have been one of the more productive hitters in Boston's lineup if he was there - and would have played great D at 3rd. I think they could have still gotten AGonz (at the expense of Ortiz) if they really wanted to, but your right, they probably wouldn't have gone after him if they resigned Beltre. That said, we're comparing AGonz to Beltre and I'm not sure why... shouldn't we be comparing Beltre to Crawford?



:confused:

Not sure what you're talking about, I've read up on this in great detail.... Theo wasn't even in the office when that trade was made, just admit this move was done when he wasn't at his post.



Ya your right, I take my statement back Scutaro is a good player at that cost. It still doesn't excuse Lackey and Crawford though, no matter how you want to try and spin it. :)



I've heard so many excuses from the Red Sox fans about the Rays I'm honestly tired of answering it. They have Price till 2015+ and Shields will probably be traded for a Kings Ransom in the offseason, allowing them to go into a year with Price, Hellboy, Matt Moore, Neimann and Davis with their starting rotation. Terrible :)



You're probably right, without Theo AND Francona, you probably don't have two championships. I give him his due.... but he's not a great (ie: top 5 GM) is baseball, he's just not. I'm sorry, the rose colored glasses aren't the same ones the rest of us see through. Has he made some great draft picks and fantastic trades? Yep... but he's made some pretty awful ones too - and if he was a GM on another team (that didn't have a $150 million dollar payroll) he would have been fired long ago.

An example from one of your fellow fans

We could do this all day :laugh2: but I'll just agree to disagree.

Although I'd be very willing to put baseball America has the Sox as a Top 10 mainly due to Middlebrooks, Bentz, Jacobs, and Bogaerts have become very house hold names compared to when you look at last years group.


1. Casey Kelly, rhp
2. Jose Iglesias, ss
3. Anthony Rizzo, 1b
4. Anthony Ranaudo, rhp
5. Drake Britton, lhp
6. Reymond Fuentes, of
7. Josh Reddick, of
8. Felix Doubront, lhp
9. Stolmy Pimentel, rhp
10. Garin Cecchini, 3b

That was last year and this year we have a lot better top 10 consider. I'd be willing to put up a sig bet BA has the Sox as a top 10 organization.

infernoscurse
10-01-2011, 03:58 PM
i keep reading on twitter that theo is leaving to the cubs but i dont find any reliable sources

DR_1
10-01-2011, 06:41 PM
There's lots of them^^^

StryderSox
10-01-2011, 06:54 PM
what i find funny is that arod opt out during playoffs and people go on a commotion ripping him appart cause hes upstaging the playoffs, Boston redsox "fire" a manager during during the playoffs and noone says a thing :laugh2:

ARod opted out the night before the Sox won the WS and he had a reputation of trying to hog the spotlight.

Francona STEPPED DOWN the day after his team imploded and before the playoffs began.

Big Difference

iam brett favre
10-01-2011, 07:15 PM
i really think A-Gon is a problem..last 2 years hes been on teams that made epic collapses
he plays with the will of a rape victim

Boston-Born
10-01-2011, 07:15 PM
Not even close? You have the draft, trades, free agencys and the international market. He's fantastic in the draft, very good at trading and not very good at all on the last two.



I agree - trading him for Bay was a fantastic move. Again, I'm not arguing Theo is a "bad" GM - I'm arguing he's not a "great" GM. Let's make sure we are clear.



Agreed - he's fantastic during the draft - I also liked his 2011 draft but it's way too early to tell.



Speculation. The Red Sox were also going to be in the playoffs, maybe even win the division. We don't know where Boston will rank next offseason - we can only speak on what has currently happened, and currently their farm system is very average.



We can agree to disagree here - I don't think Crawford is very good now at all. I thought so last offseason, I actually liked the move (not the money, but I thought he was a great player). I was wrong - it happens... After crunching the numbers and watching him play, he can't handle Boston and probably shouldn't have signed with them. People might chew me out for this, but he might actually be worse going forward, especially at the end of his contract. He relies on his wheels - the guy had 18 stolen bases this year. EIGHTEEN! For reference, Aaron Hill had 21 this past season and batted under .250. Crawford can't get on base, and he has been terrible defensively.... not to mention how his mind must be turning this, you don't think he'll press again next year knowing how the fans/media feel about it now?




Heyman goes with the flow, he would never rip Boston for signing lackey. Just because a media person says it was a good signing proves nothing. I can dig up old posts and emails I've had with people who ripped this move at the time, does that mean we're smarter than Heyman (well, maybe that's true) ;) .




I agree - I didn't see it happening either.



Beltre would have been one of the more productive hitters in Boston's lineup if he was there - and would have played great D at 3rd. I think they could have still gotten AGonz (at the expense of Ortiz) if they really wanted to, but your right, they probably wouldn't have gone after him if they resigned Beltre. That said, we're comparing AGonz to Beltre and I'm not sure why... shouldn't we be comparing Beltre to Crawford?



:confused:

Not sure what you're talking about, I've read up on this in great detail.... Theo wasn't even in the office when that trade was made, just admit this move was done when he wasn't at his post.



Ya your right, I take my statement back Scutaro is a good player at that cost. It still doesn't excuse Lackey and Crawford though, no matter how you want to try and spin it. :)



I've heard so many excuses from the Red Sox fans about the Rays I'm honestly tired of answering it. They have Price till 2015+ and Shields will probably be traded for a Kings Ransom in the offseason, allowing them to go into a year with Price, Hellboy, Matt Moore, Neimann and Davis with their starting rotation. Terrible :)



You're probably right, without Theo AND Francona, you probably don't have two championships. I give him his due.... but he's not a great (ie: top 5 GM) is baseball, he's just not. I'm sorry, the rose colored glasses aren't the same ones the rest of us see through. Has he made some great draft picks and fantastic trades? Yep... but he's made some pretty awful ones too - and if he was a GM on another team (that didn't have a $150 million dollar payroll) he would have been fired long ago.

An example from one of your fellow fans

Care to explain how he has been bad in the international market?

Towelie
10-01-2011, 07:20 PM
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2011/10/01/lessons-fall-what-we-learned-day-terry-francon

Very, very Good read.

StryderSox
10-01-2011, 07:30 PM
I really think the Theo is a "great GM" comments are currently overblown.

I thought this as well before the season started.... but his last 3-4 (5-6?) free agent signings has been Jim Hendry terrible. Not sure how anyone can say he's a great GM at this point in time.... he's a decent GM, but great GMs don't make so many bad signings in a row, especially such high profile ones.

That said, there's no doubt he put Boston on the map and made them a serious contender, so I get where you are coming from. I just think he needs to redeem himself this offseason and make smart signings, something he hasn't done in multiple years (and it has showed in the standings).

As a Sox fan I fully agree that Theo is overrated. Theo is brilliant at developing young players and finding the right pieces to pull off a trade for guys he needs without giving up his top prospects. Theo however absolutely sucks when it comes to the free agent market. When he built championship teams he did it by identifying underrated guys with character and heart (Millar, Schilling, Lowell, Beckett). He also took chances on young gritty kids with heart name Pedroia, Youkilis and Papelbon. What he didnt do was get sucked into overpaying for big names even if it might letting fan favorites walk away (Pedro, Nomar). Now it seems he has forgotten what got him and the Sox to glory and has decided instead to focus on out buying the Yankees. I am beginning to wonder if he is still thinking back to when the Yanks made him look dumb with the Texeira situation and he is determined not to get outbid again.

keymax
10-01-2011, 08:10 PM
As a Sox fan I fully agree that Theo is overrated. Theo is brilliant at developing young players and finding the right pieces to pull off a trade for guys he needs without giving up his top prospects. Theo however absolutely sucks when it comes to the free agent market. When he built championship teams he did it by identifying underrated guys with character and heart (Millar, Schilling, Lowell, Beckett). He also took chances on young gritty kids with heart name Pedroia, Youkilis and Papelbon. What he didnt do was get sucked into overpaying for big names even if it might letting fan favorites walk away (Pedro, Nomar). Now it seems he has forgotten what got him and the Sox to glory and has decided instead to focus on out buying the Yankees. I am beginning to wonder if he is still thinking back to when the Yanks made him look dumb with the Texeira situation and he is determined not to get outbid again.

I think for the first Championship team a lot of credit belongs to Duquette. He brought in Varitek,Manny,Damon,Pedro and built the farm to trade for Lowell and Beckett.
The Beckett/Lowell trade was orchestrated by Lajoie.
I agreee Epstein isn't the golden boy everybody makes him out to be.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:15 AM
Care to explain how he has been bad in the international market?

Care to explain how he's been so great?



As a Sox fan I fully agree that Theo is overrated. Theo is brilliant at developing young players and finding the right pieces to pull off a trade for guys he needs without giving up his top prospects. Theo however absolutely sucks when it comes to the free agent market. When he built championship teams he did it by identifying underrated guys with character and heart (Millar, Schilling, Lowell, Beckett). He also took chances on young gritty kids with heart name Pedroia, Youkilis and Papelbon. What he didnt do was get sucked into overpaying for big names even if it might letting fan favorites walk away (Pedro, Nomar). Now it seems he has forgotten what got him and the Sox to glory and has decided instead to focus on out buying the Yankees. I am beginning to wonder if he is still thinking back to when the Yanks made him look dumb with the Texeira situation and he is determined not to get outbid again.

Completely agree and exactly what I was trying to say... I don't think Theo sucks, far from it... he's a good GM, just not a great GM. Great GMs dont pay Carl Crawford 142 million to hit .255. He has struck out a TON on free agents but he's amazing at developing his own players and getting guys with heart and grit, exactly as you said (couldn't agree more with your post actually).

I truly believe, if he followed his own formula for more than the first few years the Sox would be WAY better off right now. He tried to be like the Yankees because he ended up getting a high payroll - when in fact he should have kept doing what he was doing. Like the old sayin goes, if it aint broke don't fix it.

Toxeryll
10-02-2011, 12:39 AM
As a Sox fan I fully agree that Theo is overrated. Theo is brilliant at developing young players and finding the right pieces to pull off a trade for guys he needs without giving up his top prospects. Theo however absolutely sucks when it comes to the free agent market. When he built championship teams he did it by identifying underrated guys with character and heart (Millar, Schilling, Lowell, Beckett). He also took chances on young gritty kids with heart name Pedroia, Youkilis and Papelbon. What he didnt do was get sucked into overpaying for big names even if it might letting fan favorites walk away (Pedro, Nomar). Now it seems he has forgotten what got him and the Sox to glory and has decided instead to focus on out buying the Yankees. I am beginning to wonder if he is still thinking back to when the Yanks made him look dumb with the Texeira situation and he is determined not to get outbid again.

completely agree with you especially the bolded parts

Boston-Born
10-02-2011, 01:08 AM
Care to explain how he's been so great?




Completely agree and exactly what I was trying to say... I don't think Theo sucks, far from it... he's a good GM, just not a great GM. Great GMs dont pay Carl Crawford 142 million to hit .255. He has struck out a TON on free agents but he's amazing at developing his own players and getting guys with heart and grit, exactly as you said (couldn't agree more with your post actually).

I truly believe, if he followed his own formula for more than the first few years the Sox would be WAY better off right now. He tried to be like the Yankees because he ended up getting a high payroll - when in fact he should have kept doing what he was doing. Like the old sayin goes, if it aint broke don't fix it.

Well you are the one who said he was bad on the international market side :laugh2:

Don't you think you should back that statement up?

Here are some:

Doubront, Felix
Navarro, Yamaico
Chiang, Chih-Hsien
Lin, Che-Hsuan
Matsuzaka, Daisuke - still an international market situation
Okajima, Hideki
Pimentel, Stolmy
Tejeda, Oscar
Tazawa, Junich
Iglesias, Jose
Bogaerts, Xander

And I am sure I forgot many others that have amazing potential. Just a jumping off point.

So I ask again, how does Theo fail on the international market?

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 09:28 AM
Well you are the one who said he was bad on the international market side :laugh2:

Don't you think you should back that statement up?

Here are some:

Doubront, Felix
Navarro, Yamaico
Chiang, Chih-Hsien
Lin, Che-Hsuan
Matsuzaka, Daisuke - still an international market situation
Okajima, Hideki
Pimentel, Stolmy
Tejeda, Oscar
Tazawa, Junich
Iglesias, Jose
Bogaerts, Xander

And I am sure I forgot many others that have amazing potential. Just a jumping off point.

So I ask again, how does Theo fail on the international market?

So... one ok relief pitcher, one colossal waste of money and a bunch of prospects is supposed to mean he'a awesome? :rolleyes: Right.....

Who knows if ANY of those prospects will be great major league players - so let's judge him on the two that's been around long enough - Okajima and DiceK.

If you really think Theo has been some mastermind bringing in these two guys then ya, I guess he's 'not bad'.... Call me back in 5 years when any of the guys you listed above (who doesn't suck) turns into something special.

Towelie
10-02-2011, 09:44 AM
Yea, a 10.6 WAR pitcher who was worth 44.9 million compared to his 50 million contract was such a colossal waste of money! :laugh2: His posting fee is what made him not worth it, but it had to get paid to bring him over.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 09:45 AM
Yea, a 10.6 WAR pitcher who was worth 44.9 was such a colossal waste of money! :laugh2:

Are you referring to Dice K? Please say yes... :)

Towelie
10-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Are you referring to Dice K?

Yup, I am. He was worth the contact but not the posting fee.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 09:49 AM
Yup, I am. He was worth the contact but not the posting fee.

Was the posting fee free?

I apologize, I thought they had to pay 50 million to get him...

Oh wait.

Towelie
10-02-2011, 09:55 AM
Was the posting fee free?

I apologize, I thought they had to pay 50 million to get him...

Oh wait.

So what, we paid his contract to play, you paid to make sure we would get him. At the end of the day the only reason why he wasn't worth it was the posting fee. it's not like that fee went to Dice K. The fee in no way effected the contract he was going to get. Darvish situation will be the same situation. I'm not saying Dice K wasn't a let down, but to say he was a collosal waste of money isn't true.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 09:57 AM
So what, we paid his contract to play, you paid to make sure we would get him. At the end of the day the only reason why he wasn't worth it was the posting fee. it's not like that fee went to Dice K. The fee in no way effected the contract he was going to get. Darvish situation will be the same situation. I'm not saying Dice K wasn't a let down, but to say he was a collosal waste of money is foolish.

Again, I apologize, I thought that posting fee came from the team - IE the Red Sox... I wasn't under the impression the league paid or maybe all 30 teams chipped in a few million to allow Boston to get him.

You can spin this any way you want - Boston paid 100 million over the course of the contract for Dice K to pitch with the Red Sox. Period.

Towelie
10-02-2011, 10:14 AM
Again, I apologize, I thought that posting fee came from the team - IE the Red Sox... I wasn't under the impression the league paid or maybe all 30 teams chipped in a few million to allow Boston to get him.

You can spin this any way you want - Boston paid 100 million over the course of the contract for Dice K to pitch with the Red Sox. Period.

Like I said Darvish will be the exact something, the posting fee has to get paid. I'd consider it a connivence fee for exclusive right to talk with that player in no way do I equate that with the player himself. Yes the money was invested into him, but in no way was he a colossal waste of money.

Super.
10-02-2011, 10:31 AM
Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money the Sox got from the marketing with Japan. This part was huge. It opened a whole new target market for Boston.

You know, it's not the last time team stuck out on a international Free Agent, at least Dice-K was roughly worth his contract. It's not like the Yankee's posted a $23M posting for fee for the FAR lass productive Kei Igawa, who has a -0.2 WAR.

So Dice-K was worth half what we paid him. Still the most productive Japanese pitcher yet, even if the Sox overpaid by roughly $50M

StryderSox
10-02-2011, 10:55 AM
Again, I apologize, I thought that posting fee came from the team - IE the Red Sox... I wasn't under the impression the league paid or maybe all 30 teams chipped in a few million to allow Boston to get him.

You can spin this any way you want - Boston paid 100 million over the course of the contract for Dice K to pitch with the Red Sox. Period.

I disagree with you here on saying that DiceK wasnt worth the money. I agree that you can spin this anyway you want but DiceK cost $100 million regardless of who the money went to. The part I think you are overlooking is that in DiceK the Sox werent just getting a pitcher but where also opening a gateway into a new market. The way I look at it is the Sox paid DiceK $50 million to pitch for them and paid the $50 million posting fee as an investment to get into the Japanese market. You cant argue that the Sox didnt easily make back that $50 million posting fee in marketing revenue from Japan.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:04 PM
I disagree with you here on saying that DiceK wasnt worth the money. I agree that you can spin this anyway you want but DiceK cost $100 million regardless of who the money went to. The part I think you are overlooking is that in DiceK the Sox werent just getting a pitcher but where also opening a gateway into a new market. The way I look at it is the Sox paid DiceK $50 million to pitch for them and paid the $50 million posting fee as an investment to get into the Japanese market. You cant argue that the Sox didnt easily make back that $50 million posting fee in marketing revenue from Japan.

I agree with what your saying and I appreciate the angle you are using. You're 100% correct in that the Sox did make that money back and spending in the gateway to Japan has to be viewed as a great move - BUT - to say Dice K's contract should ONLY include the $50 million given to him (as Towelie suggests) is ridiculous. The Red Sox paid 100 million for him, yes half went to his posting fee and yes, Yu Darvish is in the same boat. Whatever team gets him - will pay the posting fee AND his salary, which is a TOTAL sum of what the team bought into.

Furthermore, I was also talking about Dice K's production - which equals to about half his 100 million dollar price tag, it was certainly no bargain.

Towelie
10-02-2011, 12:09 PM
I agree with what your saying and I appreciate the angle you are using. You're 100% correct in that the Sox did make that money back and spending in the gateway to Japan has to be viewed as a great move - BUT - to say Dice K's contract should ONLY include the $50 million given to him (as Towelie suggests) is ridiculous. The Red Sox paid 100 million for him, yes half went to his posting fee and yes, Yu Darvish is in the same boat. Whatever team gets him - will pay the posting fee AND his salary, which is a TOTAL sum of what the team bought into.

Furthermore, I was also talking about Dice K's production - which equals to about half his 100 million dollar price tag, it was certainly no bargain.

So if you agree we made the posting fee back, and Dice K was worth 44 of his 50 million dollar contract then how was it a "colossal" waste of money? :laugh2: That doesn't makes sense. The 50 million was an investment and it was paid off. The other 50 was for Dice K to pitch for the Red Sox. When it comes down to it for me, the 50 million posting fee was well worth it and so was Dice K's contract. 100 million total invested but it wasn't just for a single person it was for a market and a person.

MagicBucsSox
10-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Dude stop crying about bostons money, they can spend twice as much this offseason than last. They spend crazy bc they can

Dol-Fan
10-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Is someone seriously trying to say the Dice-K signing wasn't a colossal waste of money? :laugh2:

Is this the same Dice-K whose career ERA is 4.25, career xFIP 4.54, and career K:BB is 1.89? Really?!

His only productive year showed a terrible xFIP and an aberration from his career BABIP. And we're really using WAR to justify a pitcher's performance? Horrible. Just like that waste of a signing.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:22 PM
So if you agree we made the posting fee back, and Dice K was worth 44 of his 50 million dollar contract then how was it a "colossal" waste of money? :laugh2: That doesn't makes sense. The 50 million was an investment and it was paid off. The other 50 was for Dice K to pitch for the Red Sox. When it comes down to it for me, the 50 million posting fee was well worth it and so was Dice K's contract. 100 million total invested but it wasn't just for a single person it was for a market and a person.

You didn't read what I said - the other poster used the angle that the money invested allowed them into the japanese market, thus it was a worthwhile investment - and I agreed.

Me and you are arguing over Dice K's performance, based on what was paid for his services.

You are talking apples and oranges and trying to spin it somehow that the Red Sox only paid 50 million for Dice K which is 100% rubbish.... if this was ANY OTHER TEAM besides Boston I guarantee you'd argue that they paid 100 mil for the player, regardless of schematics. But because it's Boston and Dice K is only worth half of what they paid, you try to somehow spin it for the good. I agree, allowing them into that market paid off, but that's not because Dice K was worth his 100 mil contract (in fact, he was worth approx half of it).

I commend your homerism for your favorite team, but there's no way you'll convince anyone Boston's posting fee is more or less irrelevant.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:24 PM
Dude stop crying about bostons money, they can spend twice as much this offseason than last. They spend crazy bc they can

Ya... it's worked out so well :rolleyes:

Can't wait to see Lackey and Crawford next year :clap:

Towelie
10-02-2011, 12:31 PM
You didn't read what I said - the other poster used the angle that the money invested allowed them into the japanese market, thus it was a worthwhile investment - and I agreed.

Me and you are arguing over Dice K's performance, based on what was paid for his services.

You are talking apples and oranges and trying to spin it somehow that the Red Sox only paid 50 million for Dice K which is 100% rubbish.... if this was ANY OTHER TEAM besides Boston I guarantee you'd argue that they paid 100 mil for the player, regardless of schematics. But because it's Boston and Dice K is only worth half of what they paid, you try to somehow spin it for the good. I agree, allowing them into that market paid off, but that's not because Dice K was worth his 100 mil contract (in fact, he was worth approx half of it).

I commend your homerism for your favorite team, but there's no way you'll convince anyone Boston's posting fee is more or less irrelevant.

I wouldn't do that cause I used Darvish as another example. Whatever the team does with that posting fee I'm sure they will make it back easily. What the contract is, is completely different. No matter what the posting fee it will have no say in what his contract will be. Imagine going to Darvish and saying "Well we paid 60 million to take you away so.....whatever deal we decide on lets subtract 60 million off of it." I'll say the exact same thing when Darvish gets posted no matter what team does it.

Boston-Born
10-02-2011, 12:36 PM
So... one ok relief pitcher, one colossal waste of money and a bunch of prospects is supposed to mean he'a awesome? :rolleyes: Right.....

Who knows if ANY of those prospects will be great major league players - so let's judge him on the two that's been around long enough - Okajima and DiceK.

If you really think Theo has been some mastermind bringing in these two guys then ya, I guess he's 'not bad'.... Call me back in 5 years when any of the guys you listed above (who doesn't suck) turns into something special.

So what in your eyes constitutes a good international market GM? Since most cases it takes a long time to see these kids pay off. Most are signed as 16/17 year olds. They take a long time to pan out. Yes, there are the Felix Hernandez and Miguel Cabrera type signings but those are few and far between.

Point is, you called Theo "not good" in the international market and you are wrong.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't do that cause I used Darvish as another example. Whatever the team does with that posting fee I'm sure they will make it back easily. What the contract is, is completely different. No matter what the posting fee it will have no say in what his contract will be. Imagine going to Darvish and saying "Well we paid 60 million to take you away so.....whatever deal we decide on lets subtract 60 million off of it." I'll say the exact same thing when Darvish gets posted no matter what team does it.

Actually, in your example you would ADD to that posting fee. So Darvish will cost 60 million AND whatever it costs to get him to play for your team (maybe another 60 mil). If you're following along, that team would have to pay 120 million for that player, period. The posting fee doesn't come from thin air. The only different from the posting fee and the contract is the posting fee gets returned to the team if they do not agree to contract with the player.

I can't believe I have to even argue this.

If you go to a store to buy a chocolate bar that has a marked price of $1.00 - and the govt puts a "posting fee" of lets say... .20 cents extra for you to eat that chocolate bar (so, 20%), how much does the bar cost? Do I get to take it home for $1.00? That's all the store is asking for - why do I have to pay extra? Does the store pay that extra .20 cents or do I pay for it out of my pocket?

This is getting ****ing ridiculous and I think your just trying to argue to get me going so - Ill let someone else explain why you are wrong - I'm done.

StayOnBoard
10-02-2011, 12:48 PM
So what in your eyes constitutes a good international market GM? Since most cases it takes a long time to see these kids pay off. Most are signed as 16/17 year olds. They take a long time to pan out. Yes, there are the Felix Hernandez and Miguel Cabrera type signings but those are few and far between.

Point is, you called Theo "not good" in the international market and you are wrong.

I was using the two people he has signed that has actually contributed - and neither of them have been amazing... Maybe bad was too harsh of a word, perhaps I should have said not very good.... oh wait, I think that's what I did say :)

And yes, most of those kids are 18 - so how can you be so sure any of them will be fantastic players? You can't... so how am I wrong?? I might be wrong, sure, and if in 3-4 years some of these kids are superstars I'll happily admit Theo is a great talent evaluator on the International market... until then, I'll wait until something he does turns out worthwhile.

MagicBucsSox
10-02-2011, 01:10 PM
Ya... it's worked out so well :rolleyes:

Can't wait to see Lackey and Crawford next year :clap:

Ok and your team don't spend money and your irrelevant, what's your point? Stop being jealous and hating

Toxeryll
10-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Ok and your team don't spend money and your irrelevant, what's your point? Stop being jealous and hating

theres a lot of fans like you who says you disagree with me, then you must be jealous and hatin. u dont need to respond if you cant argue with sense. why would the jays be jealous of the red sox who just had the biggest collapse in recent memory?

bagwell368
10-02-2011, 08:55 PM
Is someone seriously trying to say the Dice-K signing wasn't a colossal waste of money? :laugh2:

Is this the same Dice-K whose career ERA is 4.25, career xFIP 4.54, and career K:BB is 1.89? Really?!

His only productive year showed a terrible xFIP and an aberration from his career BABIP. And we're really using WAR to justify a pitcher's performance? Horrible. Just like that waste of a signing.

According to the RS, the uptick in interest in Japan and the Orient in general in the RS paid the Sox back for the posting fee and contract. But as a private company they do not have to disclose details. The signing however seemed to egg the NYY into signing their own well overpaid pitcher from the Orient that did much worse then Dice.