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Jeffy25
09-29-2011, 03:36 AM
In this thread, you can discuss your selection and debate your votes for MVP as it pertains to the sticky PSD thread votes.

Remember, votes have to be in by noon on October 4th to count, and you have to do the MVP votes 1-10


Consider this an official MVP thread now that the season is over.

Here are my votes right now, I'm not ready to officially submit them, since there are more things I would like to look at before officially deciding, but here is where I am right now.

AL

1. Bautista
2. Ellsbury
3. Verlander
4. Pedroia
5. Cabrera
6. CC Sabathia
7. A-Gone
8. Kinsler
9. Gordon
10. J. Weaver

NL

1. Kemp
2. Halladay
3. Braun
4. Kershaw
5. Cliff Lee
6. Votto
7. Tulo
8. McCutchen
9. Reyes
10. Pujols

RTL
09-29-2011, 04:37 AM
Where the hell is Justin Upton?

Jeffy25
09-29-2011, 04:45 AM
Where the hell is Justin Upton?

His f and r WAR average out to only 5.5, the same as Shane Victorino.

Upton and Victorino incidentally were both 11 and 12 with Fielder close behind them.

His WPA was only a 2.41, good enough for 16th best in the NL.

This coupled with the worst clutch rating of the 15 players ahead of him, and his .387 wOBA is tied for 9th with Pujols and Morse, and he is behind both in wRC+.

To add to that, he is tied for 9th in home runs, 10th in OBP, 10th in Slugging, and 11th in OPS.

Missing the top 10 wasn't an accidental omission, he is barely behind Pujols in my book, and he is basically tied with Victorino for 11th.

I can still be swayed on my top 10, it isn't final, but I don't see Upton as a top 5 certainly, as he is a borderline top 10.

RTL
09-29-2011, 04:50 AM
Terrible omission in my view. Too many pitchers too but I understand we have different definitions of the word "valuable". Upton was my #2 but it really doesn't matter. It's Kemp's award this year!

Belmonts
09-29-2011, 08:47 AM
I'm more interested in whose winning Cy young (possibly even mvp) in the NL.

Pinstripe pride
09-29-2011, 09:32 AM
verlander should win. he won't but he should

bagwell368
09-29-2011, 09:52 AM
This is what I think the votes will be, NOT what I think is right:

AL:

Verlander
Ellsbury
Bautista
Granderson
Kinsler
Cabrera
Longoria
Weaver
Pedroia
Gonzalez

NL:

Braun
Kemp
Halladay
Votto
Reyes
Kershaw
Victorino
Upton
Lee
Tulo

Havoc Wreaker
09-29-2011, 11:05 AM
As much as I hate Boston, Ellsbury deserves the MVP, Verlander can have the CY

LechWalesa
09-29-2011, 11:14 AM
Bautista and Verlander deserve it.

Ellsbury will probably win it. :facepalm:

Zmaster52
09-29-2011, 11:16 AM
How I think it should go:

AL:

Bautista
Cabrera
Verlander
Ellsbury
Granderson
Pedroia
Gonzalez
Kinsler
Longoria
Weaver

NL:

Kemp
Braun
Votto
Fielder
Kershaw
Reyes
Halladay
McCutchen
Pujols
Tulo

Havoc Wreaker
09-29-2011, 11:18 AM
Bautista and Verlander deserve it.

Ellsbury will probably win it. :facepalm:
And he doesn't deserve it?

LechWalesa
09-29-2011, 11:27 AM
The only offensive stats Ellsbury has on Bautista are RBI and AVG. Meanwhile, Jose leads Ellsbury by more than .100 in OPS, led the league in homers, walks, SLG, OPS, etc., etc.

The only advantage Ellsbury has over Bautista is playing a premium position defensively.

If it weren't for the number of games that pitchers are implicated in, I'd say Verlander deserves it. Hell, he may deserve it regardless.

lorneg34
09-29-2011, 12:04 PM
what i want to know is simple.....
since the all star break there was a huge debate about A-gonz vs Bautista for A.L mvp.....since then agonz has fallin really out of contention with Ellsbury picking up that slack....

the biggest argument was that Bautistas team was a 4th place team that wont make the playoffs so he doesnt deserve to win. this is NOT a shot at boston finishing out of the playoffs, but im curious now to hear the opinion of those same red sox fans as to who they now think should win the MVP since their players are not in the playoffs either.

is the opinion the same? and should granderson/cabrera win or was that just an argument used because boston held a playoff spot?

VRP723
09-29-2011, 12:20 PM
AL:

Bautista
Verlander
Ellsbury
Granderson
CC
Gonzalez
Weaver
Pedroia
Kinsler
Longoria

NL:

Kemp
Braun
Votto
Tulo
Kershaw
Halladay
Fielder
Reyes
Berkman
Holliday

ahoda
09-29-2011, 12:21 PM
Cabrera will win the MVP in the AL. Kemp in the NL.

bagwell368
09-29-2011, 12:26 PM
The only offensive stats Ellsbury has on Bautista are RBI and AVG.

2B's? 1B? 3B? TB's? Runs? SB? All in Ellsbury's favor. Never mind the fielding question which massively favors Ellsbury - and not just based on premium position, but premium vs meh performance.

FanGraphs WAR has Ellsbury ahead of Bautista easily.

bagwell368
09-29-2011, 12:28 PM
Cabrera will win the MVP in the AL. Kemp in the NL.

4th maybe, more likely 5th or 6th. Verlander is going to eat a lot of Tiger votes.

mtf
09-29-2011, 12:29 PM
Just quoting myself from the other thread you made, Jeffy25. I'm not quite sure why there's 2 threads for this :confused:

American League Most Valuable Player

1. Jose Bautista
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. Justin Verlander
4. Jacoby Ellsbury
5. Curtis Granderson
6. Adrian Gonzalez
7. Dustin Pedroia
8. Robinson Cano
9. Mike Napoli
10. Jered Weaver

National League Most Valuable Player

1. Matt Kemp
2. Ryan Braun
3. Prince Fielder
4. Albert Pujols
5. Joey Votto
6. Roy Halladay
7. Clayton Kershaw
8. Troy Tulowitzki
9. Cliff Lee
10. Matt Holliday

Spencesc11
09-29-2011, 12:33 PM
American League

1) Justin Verlander (unbelievable season)
2) Miguel Cabrera (batting title, 30 HR's, and 100 + RBI's)
3) Jacoby Ellsbury (playoff collapse hurts him)
4) Curtis Granderson (low batting avg drops him to 4th)
5) Robinson Cano (solid offensive year but not better than top 4)
6) Michael Young (talk about a super utility player)
7) Adrian Gonzalez (solid bat and solid defensively)
8) Dustin Pedroia (great year and capable of leading off or batting cleanup)
9) Jose Bautista (big power numbers, but on a bad team)
10) Mark Teixera (solid power and great glove)

National League

1) Matt Kemp (almost a triple crown with little protection behind him)
2) Ryan Braun (great season for the Brewer cornerstone)
3) Prince Fielder (He will get paid this offseason, my guess is the Cubs)
4) Albert Pujols (great bounceback after injury, St. Louis will keep him)
5) Ryan Howard (another big power year for Mr. Reliable)
6) Troy Tulowitzki (solid offensive year on a bad team)
7) Joey Votto (numbers down a little from 2010 but still solid)
8) Hunter Pence (really puts Philly over the top)
9) Lance Berkman (carried the Cards while Pujols was gone)
10) Carlos Gonzalez (another solid offensive year)

Mr Haha
09-29-2011, 12:35 PM
AL
MVP
1. Jacoby Ellsbury
2. Justin Verlander
3. Jose Bautista
4. Curtis Granderson
5. Miguel Cabrera
6. Dustin Pedrioa
7. Robinson Cano
8. Adrian Gonzalez
9. Adrien Beltre
10. Jered Weaver


NL
MVP
1. Matt Kemp
2. Ryan Braun
3. Prince Fielder
4. Albert Pujols
5. Roy Halladay
6. Clayton Kershaw
7. Justin Upton
8. Troy Tulowitzki
9. Lance Berkman
10. Jose Reyes

F*(&"Next Year"
09-29-2011, 12:37 PM
American League

1) Justin Verlander (unbelievable season)
2) Miguel Cabrera (batting title, 30 HR's, and 100 + RBI's)
3) Jacoby Ellsbury (playoff collapse hurts him)
4) Curtis Granderson (low batting avg drops him to 4th)
5) Robinson Cano (solid offensive year but not better than top 4)
6) Michael Young (talk about a super utility player)
7) Adrian Gonzalez (solid bat and solid defensively)
8) Dustin Pedroia (great year and capable of leading off or batting cleanup)
9) Jose Bautista (big power numbers, but on a bad team)
10) Mark Teixera (solid power and great glove)

National League

1) Matt Kemp (almost a triple crown with little protection behind him)
2) Ryan Braun (great season for the Brewer cornerstone)
3) Prince Fielder (He will get paid this offseason, my guess is the Cubs)
4) Albert Pujols (great bounceback after injury, St. Louis will keep him)
5) Ryan Howard (another big power year for Mr. Reliable)
6) Troy Tulowitzki (solid offensive year on a bad team)
7) Joey Votto (numbers down a little from 2010 but still solid)
8) Hunter Pence (really puts Philly over the top)
9) Lance Berkman (carried the Cards while Pujols was gone)
10) Carlos Gonzalez (another solid offensive year)

Crazy...

Zmaster52
09-29-2011, 01:32 PM
Cabrera is not getting nearly as much as he deserves, 108 walks, a batting title, and a .448 OBP not to mention a 1.000 OPS. I know a lot of you people say "Bautista doesn't deserve it because he wasn't on a playoff team." Well, Cabrera is. Bautista beats him out but, don't be surprised is Cabrera is right behind him.

Also, Ells, Pedroia, and Gonzo don't deserve an MVP cause the BoSox didn't make the playoffs :rolleyes:

ahoda
09-29-2011, 01:52 PM
4th maybe, more likely 5th or 6th. Verlander is going to eat a lot of Tiger votes.

Maybe, but I think Miggy wins it. His numbers mirror Bautista except the HRs, and Miggy won the batting title.

mtf
09-29-2011, 02:13 PM
Also, Ells, Pedroia, and Gonzo don't deserve an MVP cause the BoSox didn't make the playoffs :rolleyes:

Haven't you heard? The Boston fans who were saying Ellsbury should get it over Bautista because Ellsbury was on a playoff team are rapidly changing their stance to Ellsbury deserves it because he was on a contender to make the playoffs. Apparently he was a 1 man team, until that team fell apart.

Ender
09-29-2011, 02:13 PM
Ryan Howard...

stipe1280
09-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Kinsler isn't even the Rangers MVP...Young should be on the list over him.

Cabrera should win AL, Kemp in the NL.

Nick O
09-29-2011, 02:24 PM
i want bautista to win but i zee ellsburry winning

GoatMilk
09-29-2011, 03:18 PM
kemp deserves it, kemp should win it
but after reading jayson stark's article, he wont
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7029954/mlb-award-winners-2011-major-league-baseball-season

every voter is going to have that approach
sigh. really a shame

mtf
09-29-2011, 03:25 PM
kemp deserves it, kemp should win it
but after reading jayson stark's article, he wont
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7029954/mlb-award-winners-2011-major-league-baseball-season

every voter is going to have that approach
sigh. really a shame

Interesting article, but it's just one mans stupidity. There's no evidence that anyone else with a ballot has the same brand of stupidity as this ESPN guy.

It's interesting that he won't give the award to a player on a non-playoff team, but as he ranks them in the top 10 he has decide that they're still worthy of giving a second place, third place, fourth place, etc vote. If you're automatically discounting players, despite historic seasons, based on the results of the team rather than the individual, why doesn't he just start by listing out only the players on the 4 playoff teams in each league and just arrange those to make his top 10 list.

jd25213
09-29-2011, 03:28 PM
Granderson deserves it more than ellsbury because at least Granderson led his team to the postseason:D

Randy Marsh
09-29-2011, 03:47 PM
Granderson deserves it more than ellsbury because at least Granderson led his team to the postseason:D

Granderson doesn't deserve it because he had two other 30 homer 100 rbi guys and an outstanding pitcher on his team that led the yankees to the postseason :D

Mr Haha
09-29-2011, 04:41 PM
Granderson deserves it more than ellsbury because at least Granderson led his team to the postseason:D

I'm a Yankees fan. I watched 162 games this year. Granderson did not lead them to the playoffs, and he was not nearly as integral to the team's success as Ellsbury was to the Sox.

Jeffy25
09-29-2011, 04:44 PM
Just quoting myself from the other thread you made, Jeffy25. I'm not quite sure why there's 2 threads for this :confused:


This is simply a discussion thread, the other thread is to keep track of the voting and see how we all decide.

This is a thread to discuss the votes.

Uncle Sam
09-29-2011, 05:31 PM
Verlander will most likely win. Ellsbury will lose votes because the sox failed to make the playoffs and Bautista and Granderson dont have as good of cases either. The only thing not working in Verlanders favor is his teammate Cabrera being in the disscusion now, which might take away some votes, but I doubt it

iam brett favre
09-29-2011, 06:11 PM
Last night do people still think Ellsbury should win MVP?

Havoc Wreaker
09-29-2011, 06:27 PM
Yes

Havoc Wreaker
09-29-2011, 06:33 PM
Verlander will most likely win. Ellsbury will lose votes because the sox failed to make the playoffs and Bautista and Granderson dont have as good of cases either. The only thing not working in Verlanders favor is his teammate Cabrera being in the disscusion now, which might take away some votes, but I doubt it
While it is true that they missed the playoffs, they got as far as the final inning of the final game of the regular season thanks to Ellsbury. The only red sox player who was capable of providing offense during this last month (1.067 OPS).

The 3 HRs last Sunday.
The HR on Tuesday

Tragedy
09-29-2011, 06:35 PM
I think he deserves it over any of the offensive players in the AL.

But since we didn't make the Playoffs, I wouldn't mind seeing Verlander get it.

fadedmario
09-29-2011, 06:36 PM
I think it's going to be Verlander

WolvesJagsOs
09-29-2011, 06:38 PM
I still think Ells should win it.

hoggin88
09-29-2011, 07:04 PM
This will be a very interesting MVP vote.

Most voters prefer position players, so that works against Verlander.

Many voters prefer the player's team to be in the playoff hunt, so that helps Ellsbury, but not as much considering they tanked on the last day.

Some voters flat out go with the best offensive stats, so that helps Bautista, but he is hurt by being on a .500 team.

All things considered it will be interesting. Had the Red Sox made the postseason I think Ellsbury would have won. Now, I'm not so sure.

I would be fine with any of those three winning.

seikou8
09-29-2011, 07:13 PM
cano should win it:rolleyes: no but he is the mvp of the yankees

More-Than-Most
09-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I still have Bautista

More-Than-Most
09-29-2011, 07:17 PM
I am curious about something and was going to make a thread on it but 3 threads in one day from me seems like a bit much.

Bautista was the best in the AL this year... People say he shouldn't win the mvp because his team didn't make the playoffs... If you back that theory then should loungo win it for literally hitting his team into the playoffs with 1 swing of the bat? I am just curious about the logic behind this

Il Mago50
09-29-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm still saying that Pujols should win the MVP after that historic comeback.

The guy put up huge second half numbers and was the catalyst in the Cards coming all the way back. He's top 5 in most offensive categories and my justification for others not getting it is as follows:

Kemp: team is horrible, great numbers but the MVP should not go to players with just great statistical seasons otherwise Miguel Cabrera would have 2-3 MVPs by now.

Braun/Fielder: I think that the two cancel one another out similar to how Carpenter and Wainwright did for the CY Young two years back. While Braun's statistics are great, Fielders' are only a tad off or better in every category save for stolen bases. I just don't think that the two should win the award.

Justin Upton: Just no

That leaves me with Pujols as the most deserving candidate. While people talk about Berkamn and Holliday, the two basically disappeared in the second half while Pujols put up Pujols-like numbers and led the team to the postseason

MetsFanatic19
09-29-2011, 07:24 PM
i dont think last night should have any affect on whether he wins it or not

More-Than-Most
09-29-2011, 07:30 PM
i dont think last night should have any affect on whether he wins it or not

I completely agree and think its moronic to judge individual seasonal awards by which teams make the playoffs but people always use the his team didnt make the playoffs argument as a crutch... For the people that believe that must also believe that loungo is by far the mvp winner considering his bat single handedly propelled them into the playoffs last night right?

Nymfan87
09-29-2011, 07:30 PM
I'd be satisfied if any of Verlander/Ellsbury/Bautista wins it. All are deserving.

More-Than-Most
09-29-2011, 07:32 PM
Also should ellsbury be knocked out of consideration because boston didn't make the playoffs? Clearly he didn't carry his weight because he couldn't pitch right?

In fact I think Ellsbury and Boston helped put all that playoff ******** to rest did they not? Ellsbury did everything in his power to help carry them to the playoffs and they still came up short because they failed as a team... Should we blame ellsbury for Papelbon blowing it or for Boston having the worst starting pitching I have ever seen in the month of September? Seriously where do we draw the line in the sand when it comes to the playoffs now when judging an award like mvp?

jon32
09-29-2011, 07:49 PM
Nope. Bautista for me.....dudes production is pretty crazy , considering he was out a fair amt of games and had upwards of 100 less PA's than some of the other candidates, i would have to think there would be a few more hrs, runs, rbis, etc.

CHRISDODGERS
09-29-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm still saying that Pujols should win the MVP after that historic comeback.

The guy put up huge second half numbers and was the catalyst in the Cards coming all the way back. He's top 5 in most offensive categories and my justification for others not getting it is as follows:

Kemp: team is horrible, great numbers but the MVP should not go to players with just great statistical seasons otherwise Miguel Cabrera would have 2-3 MVPs by now.

Braun/Fielder: I think that the two cancel one another out similar to how Carpenter and Wainwright did for the CY Young two years back. While Braun's statistics are great, Fielders' are only a tad off or better in every category save for stolen bases. I just don't think that the two should win the award.

Justin Upton: Just no

That leaves me with Pujols as the most deserving candidate. While people talk about Berkamn and Holliday, the two basically disappeared in the second half while Pujols put up Pujols-like numbers and led the team to the postseason
wut.

Kemp had far superior numbers to Pujols and plays a harder position than Pujols. Pujols deserves credit, but there's no way he should win the MVP. That is still beside the point. MVP = Individual stat. The teammates he has behind him should play no part in deciding the MVP.

CHRISDODGERS
09-29-2011, 07:52 PM
Bautista.

uptownfan
09-29-2011, 07:53 PM
Kind of sucks for Ellsbury if he doesn't win it since they didn't make the playoffs. He hit .358 in September, so he wasn't really responsible for that collapse

Il Mago50
09-29-2011, 08:16 PM
wut.

Kemp had far superior numbers to Pujols and plays a harder position than Pujols. Pujols deserves credit, but there's no way he should win the MVP. That is still beside the point. MVP = Individual stat. The teammates he has behind him should play no part in deciding the MVP.

So your saying that Dustin Pedroia winning over many far superior statistical seasons by other guys didn't happen?

2008:

Pedroia: .326/.376/.493 , 17 HR, 83 RBI, 218 hits and 118 runs

Better numbers:

Josh Hamilton: 304/.371/.530, 32 HR, 130 RBI, 190 hits, 98 runs

Morneau: .300/.374/.499, 23 HR, 129 RBI, 187 hits, 97 runs

Cabrera: 292/.349/.537, 37 HR, 129 RBI, 180 hits, 85 runs with no support


Statistics don't mean everything.

Il Mago50
09-29-2011, 08:23 PM
wut.

Kemp had far superior numbers to Pujols and plays a harder position than Pujols. Pujols deserves credit, but there's no way he should win the MVP. That is still beside the point. MVP = Individual stat. The teammates he has behind him should play no part in deciding the MVP.

And Cy Young usually goes for the best numbers, winning team or not, not the MVP.

It's sad to see but that's the way it is, otherwise last year...

Josh Hamilton (.359/.411/.633, 32 HR, 100 RBI, 186 hits, 97 runs in injured year) would've lost to:

Miguel Cabrera (.328/.420/.622, 38 HR, 128 RBI, 111 runs, 180 hits)

or

Jose Bautista (.260/.378/.617, 54 HR, 124 RBI, 148 hits, 109 runs)

Stats alone don't paint the whole picture...

klane079
09-29-2011, 08:45 PM
Boston not making the playoffs takes Ellsbury out of the conversation IMO.

Verlander & Cabrera may cannibalize each others votes...

MetsFanatic19
09-29-2011, 08:51 PM
if it were someone else in jacoby's spot, would the sox even been in the position they were in wednesday (one win from the playoffs)

Bombtista
09-29-2011, 08:58 PM
Kind of sucks for Ellsbury if he doesn't win it since they didn't make the playoffs. He hit .358 in September, so he wasn't really responsible for that collapse

Exactly, If you're going to say that Ellsbury is the MVP over Bautista you cant take the fact that the Jays finished at.500 into consideration at all. And that seems to be the strongest case against him.

Even Ellsbury having such a great month wasn't enough to help his team win on his own which has been the story of Bautista all year basically.

TO Rapz
09-29-2011, 08:59 PM
Please give it to Jose. :pray:

NYY NYJ NYK
09-29-2011, 09:12 PM
I don't think the voters will vote for a player who was on the team that had the worst september collapse in recent memory.

Nick O
09-29-2011, 09:20 PM
i think Jon Rauch should win

"Ace"ves
09-29-2011, 09:27 PM
Verlander or Ellsbury

jd25213
09-29-2011, 09:32 PM
Granderson doesn't deserve it because he had two other 30 homer 100 rbi guys and an outstanding pitcher on his team that led the yankees to the postseason :D


I'm a Yankees fan. I watched 162 games this year. Granderson did not lead them to the playoffs, and he was not nearly as integral to the team's success as Ellsbury was to the Sox.

it was a joke, I really don't care who wins, but I perfer Verlander

ManRam
09-29-2011, 09:49 PM
If one game decides who wins the MVP like this, then you're criteria sucks. If Papelbon didn't blow the save, does that make Ells any more deserving than if he didn't? Not at all...

hoggin88
09-29-2011, 10:26 PM
If one game decides who wins the MVP like this, then you're criteria sucks. If Papelbon didn't blow the save, does that make Ells any more deserving than if he didn't? Not at all...

This is the type of stuff people have been saying all year in favor of considering players not on contending teams. Yet people over and over and over would say if the team doesn't make the postseason then the player isn't that valuable. Maybe this case will finally help some people realize that that thinking is ludicrous, and more so in the case of MLB as compared to the NBA and NFL.

More-Than-Most
09-29-2011, 10:37 PM
This is the type of stuff people have been saying all year in favor of considering players not on contending teams. Yet people over and over and over would say if the team doesn't make the postseason then the player isn't that valuable. Maybe this case will finally help some people realize that that thinking is ludicrous, and more so in the case of MLB as compared to the NBA and NFL.

:clap::cheers::hi5::love:

My exact point hogs. Nice

misterd
09-29-2011, 11:04 PM
I have not checked stats of late, but I know he raked for most of September while his team fell apart. He should at least be in contention. However I am pretty sure the Tampa writers will be voting for Crawford.

GrumpyOldMan
09-29-2011, 11:11 PM
There are 3, maybe 4 guys that I wouldn't be surprised to see win. Ellsbury is one of them.

MrPeytonManning
09-29-2011, 11:15 PM
No love for Miguel Cabrera here I see... I think he has as good a shot as anyone. Or at least I think he should, despite the lack of hype.

DwayneMVPwade
09-29-2011, 11:23 PM
Jose Bautista

sexicano31
09-29-2011, 11:29 PM
Bautista

Havoc Wreaker
09-29-2011, 11:33 PM
I have not checked stats of late, but I know he raked for most of September while his team fell apart. He should at least be in contention. However I am pretty sure the Tampa writers will be voting for Crawford.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19325865&postcount=35

RevisIsland
09-29-2011, 11:35 PM
Verlander.

Testaverde16
09-29-2011, 11:43 PM
Ellsbury is my MVP for the AL.... Braun for the NL

fadedmario
09-30-2011, 12:33 AM
It's going to be Verlander

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 12:44 AM
i merged the thread about Ellsbury into this thread, let's keep single award threads together for the ease of discussion and to keep the MLB section more clean.


On topic, Ellsbury doesn't deserve to lose MVP consideration for his team collapsing. 1. He played amazing in Sept. 2. It's an individual award, and his teams success means nothing. Ellsbury's performance in Sept was amazing, and it simply proves that no individual player can make their team a winner in baseball.

carson005
09-30-2011, 12:55 AM
Some people have Miggy #1? Really? He's not even the best candidate on his team.

thenetslegend
09-30-2011, 01:31 AM
matt kemp

carson005
09-30-2011, 02:01 AM
On topic, Ellsbury doesn't deserve to lose MVP consideration for his team collapsing. 1. He played amazing in Sept. 2. It's an individual award, and his teams success means nothing. Ellsbury's performance in Sept was amazing, and it simply proves that no individual player can make their team a winner in baseball.


You're right he doesn't. But by not making the playoffs he loses any perceived "playoff vs non-playoff team" argument versus Joey Bats.

keymax
09-30-2011, 04:43 AM
"To qualify, you have to do your votes 1-10 for MVP NL and AL, 1-3 on Cy Young NL and AL and 1-3 on RoY NL and AL, and 1-3 for AL and NL Manager of the Year. "

And yet you list 5 pitchers for the CY.
You can't be serious Jeffy!


btw. I hate insomnia!

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 05:14 AM
I listed 1-5, but only 1-3 count.

I actually have 1-20 for MVP, I could post as well. :)

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 05:14 AM
I'll say this much, there is a very close race right now for first and second place in the AL MVP totals that I have received thus far.

mtf
09-30-2011, 05:16 AM
This is the type of stuff people have been saying all year in favor of considering players not on contending teams. Yet people over and over and over would say if the team doesn't make the postseason then the player isn't that valuable. Maybe this case will finally help some people realize that that thinking is ludicrous, and more so in the case of MLB as compared to the NBA and NFL.

It's very doubtful that any Boston homers will change their mind. For the past few months, they've been saying that Bautista is the best player in baseball, but not the "most valuable" because he didn't elevate his team to the playoffs. Now that the Red Sox have been knocked out as well, they're trying to say "well, it's not Ellsbury's fault that his teammates blew it". The hypocritical nature of their arguments will likely be ignored while they continue to campaign for him.

It is interesting though that they don't want to hold Ellsbury's own merits up against other contenders for the award, they want to use the uniform he wears as justification for giving him the award. One Boston fan even went so far as to say "Bautista gets no protection in the Jays lineup, therefore he gets no pitches to hit. That should count against him because it results in more walks".

Jeffy25
09-30-2011, 05:25 AM
What I am seeing is that as long as the team was in 'contention' then it's okay, because that player is still valuable. lol, seriously, look through the threads. Somehow, to be valuable you had to raise your team into the playoffs, now you just have to raise your team into contention.

Ellsbury had the best Sept in baseball (arguably) and his team won 7 games. If there is ever evidence that no individual can ever raise their team into a playoff team it is that singular instance right there.



If Sept was it's own season, and we just multiply Sept 2011 by 6 to get a full season.

Ellsbury's season would look like this:

12.6 fWAR, .443 wOBA, 179 wRC+, .358/.400/.667
48 HR, 126 RBI, 132 Runs scored, 18 SB, 258 base hits in 162 games played.

Is that not MVP caliber?

And he would have been on a team that won 42 games, and lost 120!


That would be the worst regular season of all time, with what is probably the greatest season ever by a centerfielder.

That is how great Ellsbury was when compared to how bad his team was. It's complete proof that no individual player can raise their team into contention, the playoffs, whatever.


It's such an incredibly stupid argument to give an individual award based on a players team performance/record. There are countless examples of why this is true.

northsider
09-30-2011, 05:38 AM
If a pitcher wins this award I will **** myself. Not a shot in hell I consider a guy that only plays in 30 some odd games to win an award over a guy who appeared and contributed in over 150 on both sides of the ball. They have the CY award for a reason and you can chalk that up as the pitchers MVP.

northsider
09-30-2011, 05:46 AM
Bautista's second half of the season wasn't very impressive although his total numbers are great. I think I go with Ellsbury on this one although Miguel Cabrera had no slouch of a season and should get some consideration.

"Ace"ves
09-30-2011, 07:17 PM
If a pitcher wins this award I will **** myself. Not a shot in hell I consider a guy that only plays in 30 some odd games to win an award over a guy who appeared and contributed in over 150 on both sides of the ball. They have the CY award for a reason and you can chalk that up as the pitchers MVP.

Then you don't fully understand the MVP award. It specifically says that pitchers are allowed to be voted for.... meaning the award is negating the difference in games effecting assuming the performance is impressive enough

northsider
09-30-2011, 07:55 PM
Then you don't fully understand the MVP award. It specifically says that pitchers are allowed to be voted for.... meaning the award is negating the difference in games effecting assuming the performance is impressive enough

Please tell me where I said a pitcher couldn't get votes. I said I wouldn't give it to a pitcher cause I don't believe in giving it to a guy that only appears in less then a quarter of the games in a season regardless of negating performances and a great majority of the time don't play the entire game.

StayOnBoard
09-30-2011, 08:02 PM
What I am seeing is that as long as the team was in 'contention' then it's okay, because that player is still valuable. lol, seriously, look through the threads. Somehow, to be valuable you had to raise your team into the playoffs, now you just have to raise your team into contention.

Ellsbury had the best Sept in baseball (arguably) and his team won 7 games. If there is ever evidence that no individual can ever raise their team into a playoff team it is that singular instance right there.



If Sept was it's own season, and we just multiply Sept 2011 by 6 to get a full season.

Ellsbury's season would look like this:

12.6 fWAR, .443 wOBA, 179 wRC+, .358/.400/.667
48 HR, 126 RBI, 132 Runs scored, 18 SB, 258 base hits in 162 games played.

Is that not MVP caliber?

And he would have been on a team that won 42 games, and lost 120!


That would be the worst regular season of all time, with what is probably the greatest season ever by a centerfielder.

That is how great Ellsbury was when compared to how bad his team was. It's complete proof that no individual player can raise their team into contention, the playoffs, whatever.


It's such an incredibly stupid argument to give an individual award based on a players team performance/record. There are countless examples of why this is true.

I seriously ****ing love you :)

bagwell368
09-30-2011, 11:18 PM
You're right he doesn't. But by not making the playoffs he loses any perceived "playoff vs non-playoff team" argument versus Joey Bats.

Really? You mean a team loses the playoffs in the 9th inning in game 162 is the same as team that was 10.5 back (40-43) on July 1st, and was 18 out on September 6th?

Interesting Pink Floydian perspective....

FanGraphs WAR:

JE: 9.4

JB: 8.3

Why does Ellsbury need an argument related to how his team did, he still beat Bautista handily in fWAR?

hoggin88
09-30-2011, 11:38 PM
Really? You mean a team loses the playoffs in the 9th inning in game 162 is the same as team that was 10.5 back (40-43) on July 1st, and was 18 out on September 6th?

Interesting Pink Floydian perspective....

FanGraphs WAR:

JE: 9.4

JB: 8.3

Why does Ellsbury need an argument related to how his team did, he still beat Bautista handily in fWAR?

B-R WAR

JE: 7.2

JB: 8.5


If you average the two, they are nearly even with Bautista getting a slight edge. I am so sick of WAR at this point, I rarely even look at it anymore. But I think people are looking past Ellsbury's fWAR lead partly because they are starting to think WAR is not reliable as they used to think, and because of peoples' distrust of UZR. Although I do think there might be a portion of people that don't want to admit to possibly being wrong, basically sticking with Bautista until the bitter end.

If you aren't already though, do try to put your Red Sox fandom aside as much as possible when discussing the whole "in contention" thing. It seems like some Red Sox fans are starting to bend this whole importance of "being on a playoff team vs. contender vs. non-playoff team" thing to fit Ellsbury's MVP candidacy. Maybe you aren't biased here, I don't know. But it is pretty easy to let fandom get in the way sometimes.

For what it's worth though, Ellsbury has my vote. But definitely not because he was on a "contender".

Twitchy
10-01-2011, 12:18 AM
Really? You mean a team loses the playoffs in the 9th inning in game 162 is the same as team that was 10.5 back (40-43) on July 1st, and was 18 out on September 6th?

Interesting Pink Floydian perspective....

FanGraphs WAR:

JE: 9.4

JB: 8.3

Why does Ellsbury need an argument related to how his team did, he still beat Bautista handily in fWAR?

Didn't you say earlier that you prefer rWAR to fWAR?

carson005
10-01-2011, 01:03 AM
Really? You mean a team loses the playoffs in the 9th inning in game 162 is the same as team that was 10.5 back (40-43) on July 1st, and was 18 out on September 6th?

Interesting Pink Floydian perspective....

FanGraphs WAR:

JE: 9.4

JB: 8.3

Why does Ellsbury need an argument related to how his team did, he still beat Bautista handily in fWAR?

Yes that is exactly what I mean. Either you make the playoffs or you don't. 1 game out or 10 games out doesn't make a difference. And for the record I don't think making the playoffs or not making the playoffs should be a factor. But if Boston did make the playoffs they would have done it almost solely on Ells's bat.

CityofTreez
10-01-2011, 01:26 AM
Nice start Verlander!

Go Rays & Yanks!

Eat Spit Swallow Spit Mr. Rundown City of Automobiles!

Yankees90.
10-01-2011, 05:02 AM
AL-
Granderson (136 runs, 41 homers which were split evenly at home and on road, 10 triples and 25 stolen bases meaning he easily accounted for around 70 of his runs so i dont want to hear this whole "He has great hitters behind him thats why his run total is so high". You have to get on base to be driven in.and league leader in RBI's. All this while mostly batting 2nd in the lineup)
-Bautista
-Verlander
-Ellsbury
-Robbie "dont ya know" Cano


NL-
Kemp
Braun
Fielder
Kershaw
Pujols

NOTE: I dont care too much for WAR, so if anyone responds to this post, try to leave that part out. Not a big fan of sabermetrics.

carson005
10-01-2011, 05:23 AM
May I ask why you're not a fan? Do you disagree with the formulas?

Yankees90.
10-01-2011, 05:40 AM
May I ask why you're not a fan? Do you disagree with the formulas?

Idk, I guess i just dont feel it, you know. When i look at a players performance, the last think i care about is his WAR. I look at AVG, OBP, OPS, HR, RBI, SB and XBH, TB, BB and the numbers that go along with those. No specific order, but OBP is probably my favorite stat. I dont know, its just how i feel about it.

t2a2e9j12
10-01-2011, 06:35 AM
Baseball is a team game right?

Than if that is true how can you take away from a guy because he has great talent around him. Then take away from a different player because his team did not contend or make the playoffs, because no matter how good you are one player does not do it all on his own it takes a good team to make ther playoffs. These both sound like ways to discredit players you dont support. That in all honesty deserve both credit for the season they had and consideration for the mvp.

Belmonts
10-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Didn't you say earlier that you prefer rWAR to fWAR?

Yes he did.

hoggin88
10-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Idk, I guess i just dont feel it, you know. When i look at a players performance, the last think i care about is his WAR. I look at AVG, OBP, OPS, HR, RBI, SB and XBH, TB, BB and the numbers that go along with those. No specific order, but OBP is probably my favorite stat. I dont know, its just how i feel about it.

Granderson is 17th in the AL in OBP. ;)

bagwell368
10-01-2011, 11:35 AM
B-R WAR

JE: 7.2

JB: 8.5


If you average the two, they are nearly even with Bautista getting a slight edge.

Oh I know, I actually favor rWAR myself, but for the sake of that argument....


I am so sick of WAR at this point, I rarely even look at it anymore. But I think people are looking past Ellsbury's fWAR lead partly because they are starting to think WAR is not reliable as they used to think, and because of peoples' distrust of UZR. Although I do think there might be a portion of people that don't want to admit to possibly being wrong, basically sticking with Bautista until the bitter end.

UZR is realiable in large sample sizes, but in a one year? It tends to jump a bit much. I will say that Ellsbury has played CF far better this year then he has in the 2008-2010 time frame. Besides rWAR has it's own RField piece which does tend to toggle around less, so I do like it for that.


If you aren't already though, do try to put your Red Sox fandom aside as much as possible when discussing the whole "in contention" thing. It seems like some Red Sox fans are starting to bend this whole importance of "being on a playoff team vs. contender vs. non-playoff team" thing to fit Ellsbury's MVP candidacy. Maybe you aren't biased here, I don't know. But it is pretty easy to let fandom get in the way sometimes.

For what it's worth though, Ellsbury has my vote. But definitely not because he was on a "contender".

I am fair minded, but in the scope of a given argument can use stats I wouldn't ordinarily.

Also bear in mind I have been mostly talking about what the voters will do, not what I want, so history proves - even recent history that contention, "clutch", "timing", "all around 5 tool guy", etc. which are generally poison to the SABR crew have purchase in the hearts of the voters.

At the very least team performance is a tie breaker. If one guy has a 10.1 WAR and the other has a 10.3 and one guy is on a 4th place team and the other guy is in the thick into say mid September, yeah, it could well make a difference.

No doubt at all some Sox fans are bending the argument. Given the vitriol of Bautista uber alles crowd in the mid May - August time frame it is understandable.

Montega-Man
10-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Oh I know, I actually favor rWAR myself, but for the sake of that argument....



UZR is realiable in large sample sizes, but in a one year? It tends to jump a bit much. I will say that Ellsbury has played CF far better this year then he has in the 2008-2010 time frame. Besides rWAR has it's own RField piece which does tend to toggle around less, so I do like it for that.



I am fair minded, but in the scope of a given argument can use stats I wouldn't ordinarily.

Also bear in mind I have been mostly talking about what the voters will do, not what I want, so history proves - even recent history that contention, "clutch", "timing", "all around 5 tool guy", etc. which are generally poison to the SABR crew have purchase in the hearts of the voters.

At the very least team performance is a tie breaker. If one guy has a 10.1 WAR and the other has a 10.3 and one guy is on a 4th place team and the other guy is in the thick into say mid September, yeah, it could well make a difference.

No doubt at all some Sox fans are bending the argument. Given the vitriol of Bautista uber alles crowd in the mid May - August time frame it is understandable.

My first day on PSD and I have noticed you are a statistics guru,WOW!!!! is all I have to say....anyway

AL MVP- Miguel Cabrera
Jacoby Ellsbury(if somone told me at the begining of the season that Jacoby would have more homeruns than Adrian Gonzo I would have been willing to bet a small fortune against that)

NL MVP-Matt Kemp(struckout 159 times and still put those #'s up with a weak line up)
Ryan Braun
Just my opinion.... NO ME IMPORTA who wins it

Jeffy25
10-02-2011, 02:35 AM
Montega man, I invite you to join our votes in the PSD votes, it's a sticky thread in the MLB section.

Personally, I'm a stats guy too, and generally enjoy Bagwell's posts. But you are more than welcomed to join us in our vote :)

Yankees90.
10-02-2011, 03:28 AM
Granderson is 17th in the AL in OBP. ;)

Wasnt saying he has a great OBP, which is why i didn't put it in my first post.... just saying it is one of my favorite stats

MrPeytonManning
10-02-2011, 04:40 AM
Some people have Miggy #1? Really? He's not even the best candidate on his team.

I can't speak for the other people who support Miggy for MVP, but I don't think a pitcher should win the MVP... that's what the Cy Young is for. Verlander should win that one easily.

I say Cabrera for MVP instead of Ellsbury or Granderson because the Yanks and Sox lineups are so loaded that if either of those guys went down, they would still be fine. Detroit's lineup is good, but it's not a juggernaut. Miguel Cabrera makes that offense what it is.

gilly
10-02-2011, 09:27 AM
AL is all wrapped up, Kemp has been awesome. Joey Bats for me in the NL.