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View Full Version : Is Amar'e Stoudemire a top 15 PF All Time?



Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 01:28 AM
When talking about the greatest PFs off all time we rarely hear the name Amar'e Stoudemire mentioned but I started to wonder if we're overlooking him a but. Is he top 20 All Time?

I'll just throw some names out of guys who are considered some of the guys considered among the 30 or so best PFs ever.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Spencer Haywood
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Tom Chambers
Larry Nance
Dolph Schayes
Billy Cunningham
Buck Williams
Shawn Kemp
Rasheed Wallace
Tom Heinsohn
Elton Brand
Connie Hawkins
Chris Bosh
Dave DeBusschere
Detlef Schrempf
Jerry Lucas
Carlos Boozer
Zach Randolph
Maurice Lucas
James Worthy*
Shawn Marion*

Maybe I forgot a couple here and there but for the most part those are the names that many mention when speaking of the greatest PFs of all time.

For those who like stats , he's 7th All Time among PFs in PER, 3rd in TS% and 11th in WS/48 and at this point in his career he's 5th in PPG. He's one of the greatest offensive PFs of all time something that may have gone unnoticed.

So my question is.... as of right now is Amar'e a top 15 PF of all time?

Hellcrooner
09-27-2011, 01:35 AM
Schayes, pettit,Hawkins, debuscherre, Hayes,Lucas,Buck Williams, Mcadoo, Mchale, Nance,Chambers, Barkley, K Malone, Webber, Kg, Duncan, Sheed, Dirk, Pau.

more or less cronologicaly by entrance in the league, id take all of these before Stoudamire, theres a high chance if Love and Griffin have the career they are hinting id take them too.
So hes nowhere close.

and swash, Fat Randolphs name in that list of yours is a pain for the eyes.

thenetslegend
09-27-2011, 01:39 AM
no way

LakersMaster24
09-27-2011, 01:39 AM
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Garnett
4. Barkley
5. Sheed
6. Dirk
7. McHale
8. Webber
9. McAdoo
10. Pettit
11. Rodman
12. Hayes
13. Tom Chambers
14. Hawkins
15. Schayes

That's not in order by the way ^ just listing players as they come to my mind.

So I think no he is not, in the Top 15 and not even close...

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 01:40 AM
Schayes, pettit,Hawkins, debuscherre, Hayes,Lucas,Buck Williams, Mcadoo, Mchale, Nance,Chambers, Barkley, K Malone, Webber, Kg, Duncan, Sheed, Dirk, Pau.

more or less cronologicaly by entrance in the league, id take all of these before Stoudamire, theres a high chance if Love and Griffin have the career they are hinting id take them too.
So hes nowhere close.

and swash, Fat Randolphs name in that list of yours is a pain for the eyes.


:laugh2: I hear you bro. Sometimes you gotta please the masses. If one guy is there they'd just b**** and say where's the other. So I just tried to avoid it entirely.

Why do you view McAdoo as a PF? Is it because of his skill set? Do you see him as a PF who was more or less forced to play the C?

Also the question clearly states right now. So I'm not asking whether or not Love and/or Blake will surpass him (I too expect them too) but where he ranks currently.

LakersMaster24
09-27-2011, 01:44 AM
Dont forget the Silk Wilkes!

Hellcrooner
09-27-2011, 01:45 AM
:laugh2: I hear you bro. Sometimes you gotta please the masses. If one guy is there they'd just b**** and say where's the other. So I just tried to avoid it entirely.

Why do you view McAdoo as a PF? Is it because of his skill set? Do you see him as a PF who was more or less forced to play the C?

Also the question clearly states right now. So I'm not asking whether or not Love and/or Blake will surpass him (I too expect them too) but where he ranks currently.

he played as much center as Pf but his skills and 6,9 make me think of him as a pf always.

Hellcrooner
09-27-2011, 01:47 AM
Dont forget the Silk Wilkes!

? he was a sf that also played some sg.....:confused:

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 01:53 AM
I'd take Stoudemire over Nance, Chambers, Hawkins and Buck Williams and I see McAdoo as a C. So for those that Crooner listed would put him right about 15. At least according to those Crooner listed. I'm still debating with myself if he's ahead of a couple other guys.

Dallas Tx4Life
09-27-2011, 01:55 AM
No and not close... Of course he's still got a ways to go.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 02:02 AM
No and not close... Of course he's still got a ways to go.

He's the 3rd most efficient (behind only McHale and Barkley) with the 7th best PER (trailing Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, TD and Pettit) and the 5th best career PPG average (behind Pettit, Barkley, Dirk and Malone) and you're saying he's not close? I don't get that. He's been in the league more years than CP3 and CP3 is already widely considered a top 10 PG of all time. I don't see why it's not close.

ManningToTyree
09-27-2011, 02:09 AM
Not Yet. If he is healthy for the remainder of his career (huge if) he will be for sure.

LakersMaster24
09-27-2011, 02:15 AM
? he was a sf that also played some sg.....:confused:

I know, but his style of play always reminded me of a PF.

Kobes a Killer
09-27-2011, 03:50 AM
Elton brand and Shawn Marion on that list... Wtf Boozer Bosh??? Randolph has a chance of making a top 25 list and thats a stretch but darn man Marion? Lol... You're a legit poster but you were a bit too generous man

naps
09-27-2011, 04:05 AM
No.

NYKalltheway
09-27-2011, 06:40 AM
Not even close. Could slip into top 20 if he improves his D

PHX2daDEATH
09-27-2011, 07:51 AM
negative, when he averages 10 + boards a game then we'll see..

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:57 AM
no way

Weezy
09-27-2011, 09:13 AM
negative, when he averages 10 + boards a game then we'll see..

Yup.

Hustlenomics
09-27-2011, 09:30 AM
If it's not even close I want to see 15 PF's CLEARLY better than him

NYKnickFanatic
09-27-2011, 09:39 AM
Not even close.

Brooklyn Mets
09-27-2011, 09:41 AM
as of right now i would have to say no.. if he continues to stay healthy and play the kind of basketball he is known to play for the remainder of his current contract then he has a legitimate shot to reach top 20 to top 15 status.. i would love to say he could reach a higher plateau but there have been too many great pfs in this league and the competition isnt getting any weaker..

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 09:45 AM
If it's not even close I want to see 15 PF's CLEARLY better than him

My point exactly. I can say there are 12 or so who are but others are up for debate IMO.

People are blaming it on the fact that he isn't a great defensive player but they put guys ahead of him who weren't that great defensively to begin with. They're saying its because he's a lackluster rebounder well what about Pau, McHale, Dirk, Nance, Sheed, Chambers. These guys weren't that much better than Amar'e. Some are even worst.

But instead over going over the facts an analyzing those who they are putting above him they ignore it completely and go along with the notion that he's not worthy of even being mentioned.

todu82
09-27-2011, 09:47 AM
No, he's close but he's not there yet.

Catoblepas
09-27-2011, 09:49 AM
I think Antonio McDyess always played Center.. but man before his injury, I would say he was a monster. Only mentioned because Amare's game reminds me of Antonio's.

penny421
09-27-2011, 09:51 AM
When talking about the greatest PFs off all time we rarely hear the name Amar'e Stoudemire mentioned but I started to wonder if we're overlooking him a but. Is he top 20 All Time?

I'll just throw some names out of guys who are considered some of the guys considered among the 30 or so best PFs ever.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Tom Chambers
Larry Nance
Dolph Schayes
Billy Cunningham
Buck Williams
Shawn Kemp
Rasheed Wallace
Tom Heinsohn
Elton Brand
Connie Hawkins
Chris Bosh
Dave DeBusschere
Detlef Schrempf
Jerry Lucas
Carlos Boozer
Zach Randolph
Maurice Lucas
James Worthy*
Shawn Marion*

Maybe I forgot a couple here and there but for the most part those are the names that many mention when speaking of the greatest PFs of all time.

For those who like stats , he's 7th All Time among PFs in PER, 3rd in TS% and 11th in WS/48 and at this point in his career he's 5th in PPG. He's one of the greatest offensive PFs of all time something that may have gone unnoticed.

So my question is.... as of right now is Amar'e a top 15 PF of all time?

No the names in bold are definitely better IMO.
But I wouldn't say it's not even close.
I think he's a top 25 PF all time for now and could slip into the top 15 at the end of his career.Not sure about it though especially because of his injuries issues.

penny421
09-27-2011, 10:00 AM
He's the 3rd most efficient (behind only McHale and Barkley) with the 7th best PER (trailing Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, TD and Pettit) and the 5th best career PPG average (behind Pettit, Barkley, Dirk and Malone) and you're saying he's not close? I don't get that. He's been in the league more years than CP3 and CP3 is already widely considered a top 10 PG of all time. I don't see why it's not close.

That's because CP3 is just too good.
He's #1 all time among PGs in WS/48 and PER (yeah even better than Magic)
and he's #3 in assists per game.
He can give you everything you want from a PG and only one or two PGs can match CP3's peak.
That's not the case for Amar'e.

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 10:02 AM
My point exactly. I can say there are 12 or so who are but others are up for debate IMO.

People are blaming it on the fact that he isn't a great defensive player but they put guys ahead of him who weren't that great defensively to begin with. They're saying its because he's a lackluster rebounder well what about Pau, McHale, Dirk, Nance, Sheed, Chambers. These guys weren't that much better than Amar'e. Some are even worst.

But instead over going over the facts an analyzing those who they are putting above him they ignore it completely and go along with the notion that he's not worthy of even being mentioned.

Its called playing for the Knicks. If he was still a Sun he it would be a unanimous 'hes right there around #15' but instead its 'not even close!'

Similar to Melos stock dropping 4-5 slots in the PSD voting directly after getting traded to NY regardless of his better stats and good defensive play as a Knick

I'd say hes right behind Webber (and will eventually pass him IMO) and in front of Kemp......another 4 seasons or so of doing what hes been doing his whole career and he could be top 10.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 10:04 AM
That's because CP3 is just too good.
He's #1 all time among PGs in WS/48 and PER (yeah even better than Magic)
and he's #3 in assists per game.
He can give you everything you want from a PG and only one or two PGs can match CP3's peak.
That's not the case for Amar'e.

Amar'e is #3 all time in TS% for his career and as far as peak goes he's second only to Chuck. One of the most efficient scores in the history of the game not only at the PF position.

I understand CP3's prowess already but my point is people are blaming longevity and not looking at what the player has accomplished thus far in the case of Amar'e.

benzni
09-27-2011, 10:31 AM
not yet, maybe never. Obviously top 5 in the league but not all time

Avenged
09-27-2011, 10:32 AM
I mean in terms of offensive PF's? Sure, I can see it.

But overall once you factor in defense, achievements etc.. then i'll say no. I do believe you have to win at least something to be considered better or at least comparable to other greats.

NYYCowboys
09-27-2011, 10:44 AM
Its called playing for the Knicks. If he was still a Sun he it would be a unanimous 'hes right there around #15' but instead its 'not even close!'

Similar to Melos stock dropping 4-5 slots in the PSD voting directly after getting traded to NY regardless of his better stats and good defensive play as a Knick

I'd say hes right behind Webber (and will eventually pass him IMO) and in front of Kemp......another 4 seasons or so of doing what hes been doing his whole career and he could be top 10.

Exactly. Haters gonna hate.

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 10:55 AM
Elton brand and Shawn Marion on that list... Wtf Boozer Bosh??? Randolph has a chance of making a top 25 list and thats a stretch but darn man Marion? Lol... You're a legit poster but you were a bit too generous man

Look at Marions stats from '00-'07, dude put up some of the craziest stats we have ever seen from a PF......

Look at his 05-06 stats: 22-12-2-2-2 with 53% FG

Combine that with his all NBA defense selections and his key role on the 2011 champion Mavs I think its safe to say he belongs on the list. Pretty much put up 20-10 for 6 straight seasons.

Brand has fallen off but that doesn't change the first 8 years of his career where he was ROY and a 20-10 beast. Put up 25-10-2.5-1-2.5 with 53% FG in 05-06.

The NBA didn't start in 2008. Please explain why these guys belong nowhere near a top 25 list?

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 11:01 AM
Look at Marions stats from '00-'07, dude put up some of the craziest stats we have ever seen from a PF......

Look at his 05-06 stats: 22-12-2-2-2 with 53% FG

Combine that with his all NBA defense selections and his key role on the 2011 champion Mavs I think its safe to say he belongs on the list. Pretty much put up 20-10 for 6 straight seasons.

Brand has fallen off but that doesn't change the first 8 years of his career where he was ROY and a 20-10 beast. Put up 25-10-2.5-1-2.5 with 53% FG in 05-06.

The NBA didn't start in 2008. Please explain why these guys belong nowhere near a top 25 list?

He never made an All Defensive Team. It's a real shame honestly. He only really started getting the respect for his D last season while he's been stellar in that department for basically his entire career.

Jetsguy
09-27-2011, 11:09 AM
I mean in terms of offensive PF's? Sure, I can see it.

But overall once you factor in defense, achievements etc.. then i'll say no. I do believe you have to win at least something to be considered better or at least comparable to other greats.

but if the question was in terms of offensive PF's it would be a complete no brainer, the better question for that would probably be top 5.

I would have to really look at other players to say where he falls, the eyeball test would tell me he may fall in a broad range of about 14-20 but that is without a ton of thought.

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 11:23 AM
He never made an All Defensive Team. It's a real shame honestly. He only really started getting the respect for his D last season while he's been stellar in that department for basically his entire career.

Wow really? I coulda sworn he made a few All NBA 2nd teams at least.......didn't Raja Bell make it a couple times during the Suns run? Well that is a travesty, Marion was one of the first 'hybrid forwards' that could play SF and PF while guarding anyone from PG to PF.......I knew his offensive stats were ridiculous during his prime but I didn't realize he was a 20 ppg scorer for all those years

Chronz
09-27-2011, 11:45 AM
I mean in terms of offensive PF's? Sure, I can see it.

But overall once you factor in defense, achievements etc.. then i'll say no. I do believe you have to win at least something to be considered better or at least comparable to other greats.

This makes no sense, there arent that many years in NBA history for every top 15 player at any position to meet that criteria. Sounds to me like youve never actually compared him to the other greats, your just blindly assuming every top 15 player was elite on both ends and well rounded.

Thats not the case, just look at some of the names Crooner mentioned, there are alot of flawed players in that list. Amare is easily better than most of the guys he mentioned.

AntiG
09-27-2011, 12:08 PM
Offensively yes. Problem, just like with Gasol, the guy plays terrible defense and plays very soft. They both get knocked down a few notches for having incomplete games, same goes for Rodman who I love.

Chronz
09-27-2011, 12:27 PM
Schayes,Hawkins, debuscherre, Hayes, Lucas, Buck Williams, Mcadoo, Nance, Chambers, Sheed, Pau.
Id be very interested in hearing why.

shep33
09-27-2011, 12:32 PM
I love Amare but not yet.

Missing56&33
09-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Amar'e must get more rebounds. He has to find a way to be more than just a offensive minded PF. But at this point in his career, its about post season success.....we already know he can make an all star team.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Its called playing for the Knicks. If he was still a Sun he it would be a unanimous 'hes right there around #15' but instead its 'not even close!'

Similar to Melos stock dropping 4-5 slots in the PSD voting directly after getting traded to NY regardless of his better stats and good defensive play as a Knick

I'd say hes right behind Webber (and will eventually pass him IMO) and in front of Kemp......another 4 seasons or so of doing what hes been doing his whole career and he could be top 10.

smh, he's defense was worse in the knicks

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 12:43 PM
It's really amazing how Amar'e gets knocked for his faults but others who are being put ahead of him really aren't that much defenders or rebounders than him. If it was all about the all round game Dirk nor Chuck would have a case for the top 3 and maybe even top 5.

Lakersfan2483
09-27-2011, 01:01 PM
Yes, he definitely is a top 15 power forward of all time and his numbers, etc.... put him in the top. He's
7th All Time among PFs in PER, 3rd in TS% and 11th in WS/48 and he's 5th in PPG.

Top power forwards:

Duncan
K. Malone
C. Barkley
B. Petit
K. Garnett
D. Nowitzki
K. Mchale
E. Hayes
P. Gasol
C. Webber
A. Stoudemire
Rasheed Wallace
Jerry Lucas
Buck Williams
Dennis Rodman

smith&wesson
09-27-2011, 01:02 PM
Schayes, pettit,Hawkins, debuscherre, Hayes,Lucas,Buck Williams, Mcadoo, Mchale, Nance,Chambers, Barkley, K Malone, Webber, Kg, Duncan, Sheed, Dirk, Pau.

more or less cronologicaly by entrance in the league, id take all of these before Stoudamire, theres a high chance if Love and Griffin have the career they are hinting id take them too.
So hes nowhere close.

and swash, Fat Randolphs name in that list of yours is a pain for the eyes.

how is duncan not first on your list ? and no love for randolph :confused:

29$JerZ
09-27-2011, 01:06 PM
It's really amazing how Amar'e gets knocked for his faults but others who are being put ahead of him really aren't that much defenders or rebounders than him. If it was all about the all round game Dirk nor Chuck would have a case for the top 3 and maybe even top 5.

Imo its a Knick/NY trend
It's not as bad as some NY'ers say it is but it exist imo

Had Melo stayed in Denver and Amar'e in Phoenix questions like this would be answered much more differently imo

And good point on the all around game arguement.
Last I check Durant, Dirk, Rose aren't the best or even good 2 way players yet look where they are ranked.
Some guys just excel so much at their skill their defencies don't matter. I highly doubt Thunder, Mavs or Bulls care that their stars aren't the most defensively gifted. They'd still never let them go if they could.

smith&wesson
09-27-2011, 01:07 PM
i voted yes. he is better then alot of ppl on that list. some ppl just dont seem to give credit where its due.

Lakersfan2483
09-27-2011, 01:09 PM
I don't know how anyone can argue against him being in the top 15 as his career avgs, per, etc.. say otherwise.

NYKalltheway
09-27-2011, 01:18 PM
how is duncan not first on your list ? and no love for randolph :confused:

he said it's chronological order ;)

smith&wesson
09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
he said it's chronological order ;)

oh i know what that means now. thanks for the winky :rolleyes:

my bad crooner

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 01:27 PM
smh, he's defense was worse in the knicks

Ummm how so? Of course his defensive ratings and what not are going to go down, those are team stats more than anything. He went from a team with Affalo at the 2, Kmart at the 4, and Nene at the 5, all very good above average defenders, to a team with Fields at the 2, Amare at the 4, and Turiaf/Jeffries at the 5......all below average defenders. You think his defensive stats are going to go up? Melos D was much better than advertised and any NY fan will tell you that......and trust me NY fans are pretty good at bashing there own team. There is a thread in the Knicks forum that has guys complaining how bad Donnie Walsh sucked :facepalm:

NYflightboy
09-27-2011, 01:29 PM
Honestly as a Knick fan, Amare is definitely one of the best offensive PF's of all-time. Dude is a freak athlete. That being said he really under-performs on the defensive end for his size and athleticism. His rebounding numbers do not compare to the all-time greats. And the man just doesn't play D. So if he is indeed top 15-20 he is towards the bottom.

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 01:38 PM
Honestly as a Knick fan, Amare is definitely one of the best offensive PF's of all-time. Dude is a freak athlete. That being said he really under-performs on the defensive end for his size and athleticism. His rebounding numbers do not compare to the all-time greats. And the man just doesn't play D. So if he is indeed top 15-20 he is towards the bottom.

Fair analysis, although keep in mind 3 of the top 5 PFs didn't/don't play good D....

JordansBulls
09-27-2011, 02:36 PM
Rasheed in no way shape or form was better than Amare.

Detlef Schrempf was a SF not PF.

And Rodman was not better than Amare or Kemp? Can you win a title with Rodman as your 2nd best player? Hell no

Can you win with Amare or Kemp as your 2nd best player? Hell yes.

llemon
09-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Rasheed in no way shape or form was better than Amare.

Detlef Schrempf was a SF not PF.

And Rodman was not better than Amare or Kemp? Can you win a title with Rodman as your 2nd best player? Hell no

Can you win with Amare or Kemp as your 2nd best player? Hell yes.

Interesting observations.

Can't say I agree with any of them.

Chronz
09-27-2011, 03:10 PM
It's really amazing how Amar'e gets knocked for his faults but others who are being put ahead of him really aren't that much defenders or rebounders than him. If it was all about the all round game Dirk nor Chuck would have a case for the top 3 and maybe even top 5.

Chuck?

Chronz
09-27-2011, 03:11 PM
Interesting observations.

Can't say I agree with any of them.

Explain to me why Rodman was never heralded as Kemps equal during their glory years.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 03:18 PM
Chuck?

Barkley. Do you think all round he's better than Malone, KG, TD and/or McHale?

Hellcrooner
09-27-2011, 03:44 PM
how is duncan not first on your list ? and no love for randolph :confused:

cronological order of entry in the league, not peking order.

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 03:44 PM
Rasheed in no way shape or form was better than Amare.

Detlef Schrempf was a SF not PF.

And Rodman was not better than Amare or Kemp? Can you win a title with Rodman as your 2nd best player? Hell no

Can you win with Amare or Kemp as your 2nd best player? Hell yes.

Funny that offensive juggernauts like Amare get bashed because they don't play D yet its A OK for defensive juggernauts like Rodman or Ben Wallace to have absolutely 0 offensive game........being a sub par defender apparently keeps guys like Amare off all time greats lists but guys like Rodman get thrown right onto those lists when they have literry 0 offense ?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 04:06 PM
Funny that offensive juggernauts like Amare get bashed because they don't play D yet its A OK for defensive juggernauts like Rodman or Ben Wallace to have absolutely 0 offensive game........being a sub par defender apparently keeps guys like Amare off all time greats lists but guys like Rodman get thrown right onto those lists when they have literry 0 offense ?

defense>offense

any day of the week

Chronz
09-27-2011, 04:16 PM
defense>offense

any day of the week

So bruce Bowen over Tmac? Ben Wallace over Shaq?

eriley201
09-27-2011, 04:18 PM
if he has at least 3 or 4 more seasons Averaging 25ppg 8 rbs 1.5 block and play around 70 or more games each season, considering that now his numbers might dip due to melo being primarly a scorer it will be a difficult task

LOOTERX9
09-27-2011, 04:20 PM
Amare's Horrid Defense is what stops me from adding him to top 15 list. I mean Amare's defense is just non existent. He doesn't even try most the time and lets garbage players have career scoring and rebounding nights against him. I'm a knick fan and watching him on defense made my stomach turn all season.

29$JerZ
09-27-2011, 04:21 PM
defense>offense

any day of the week

More like Monday Tuesday Wednesday and half of Thursday
That's only half the game

If Defense were that much of a factor over offense Charlotte would have been to a Finals already

Sactown
09-27-2011, 04:31 PM
I would take 5 current players over him.... So I don't think he cracks the top 15

Pau
Kevin Love
Blake Griffin
Dirk
I'd even take Chris Bosh lol

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 04:39 PM
defense>offense

any day of the week

Jason Kidd
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

vs

Steve Nash
Reggie Miller
Kiki Vandeweghe
Amar'e Stoudemire
Brad Miller

7 game series who wins?

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 04:39 PM
I would take 5 current players over him.... So I don't think he cracks the top 15

Pau
Kevin Love
Blake Griffin
Dirk
I'd even take Chris Bosh lol

So wait if Love's, Griffin's and Bosh's career ended today they'd rank higher on your all time list than Amar'e?

LOOTERX9
09-27-2011, 04:45 PM
Jason Kidd
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

vs

Steve Nash
Reggie Miller
Kiki Vandeweghe
Amar'e Stoudemire
Brad Miller

7 game series who wins?


Depends on what rules are in place. If it's the 80's/90's rules then the defensive team has a good shot at winning. But if it's todays girly girl touch foul rules then the offensive team will slaughter the defensive team.

Sactown
09-27-2011, 04:51 PM
So wait if Love's, Griffin's and Bosh's career ended today they'd rank higher on your all time list than Amar'e?

No, but if I can name 5 players in the league today I doubt he makes the 15 all time list.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 04:54 PM
No, but if I can name 5 players in the league today I doubt he makes the 15 all time list.

Read the title of the poll.

Sactown
09-27-2011, 04:55 PM
Read the title of the poll.

I know, but if I can name 5 now.. I'm positive there's 15 in the past...

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 04:57 PM
I know, but if I can name 5 now.. I'm positive there's 15 in the past...

Well I listed a bunch of names on the opening page. None are missing. Go through those names and ascertain who were better.

Slimsim
09-27-2011, 04:58 PM
So wait if Love's, Griffin's and Bosh's career ended today they'd rank higher on your all time list than Amar'e?

I really respect you a lot as a poster but their are to many clowns and trolls on PSD to get a legit debate about a topic, epically when that player is wearing a knicks jersey. If Amare was still a Sun you would get better point of views and less bias/hate because of the team he plays for.

JordansBulls
09-27-2011, 05:06 PM
defense>offense

any day of the week

So Rodman is better than Barkley?
Payton better than Magic?
Scottie better than Bird?
Mutombo better than Shaq?

llemon
09-27-2011, 05:15 PM
So Rodman is better than Barkley?
Payton better than Magic?
Scottie better than Bird?
Mutombo better than Shaq?

Hope everyone realizes there are palyers that play both very good offense and defense, and many times that puts them above players that are just very good at offense.

Now Amare is very much the better offensive player than Dennis Rodman, but Rodman is obviously the more valuable player to his team than Amare, at least in my opinion.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:29 PM
So bruce Bowen over Tmac? Ben Wallace over Shaq?

dont get it twisted;)

JNA17
09-27-2011, 05:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oqgnKgwDsk

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:32 PM
I really respect you a lot as a poster but their are to many clowns and trolls on PSD to get a legit debate about a topic, epically when that player is wearing a knicks jersey. If Amare was still a Sun you would get better point of views and less bias/hate because of the team he plays for.

This is something I have debated within myself and was hoping that I would get the opinion of others. Personally I think people are seeing the name and it being mentioned among some of the greats and thinking he has no place in there. They aren't even taking the time to ***** the respective players careers and see if it actually isn't so far fetched. They blast him for being poor defensively and a underwhelming rebounding when the very players they put ahead of him are no better on D and even worst rebounders.

I don't usually subscribe to the whole because he's playing in NBA he's being disliked but in this thread it seems to apply a bit.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Jason Kidd
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

vs

Steve Nash
Reggie Miller
Kiki Vandeweghe
Amar'e Stoudemire
Brad Miller

7 game series who wins?

lol, you know that a team who plays strictly only defense/offense has never won a title yet.

A mix of defense and offense in a right ratio equals a campionship.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:39 PM
lol, you know that a team who plays strictly only defense/offense has never won a title yet.

A mix of defense and offense in a right ratio equals a campionship.

That however goes against your premise of D>O all day every day. Now you're basically saying that you're wrong. A team needs to be able to execute effectively on both ends of the floor in order to be victorious.

Here what I want you to do. Make a check of all the great PFs who came before Amar'e see who exactly in your opinion was better. See if you get 15.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:44 PM
That however goes against your premise of D>O all day every day. Now you're basically saying that you're wrong. A team needs to be able to execute effectively on both ends of the floor in order to be victorious.

Here what I want you to do. Make a check of all the great PFs who came before Amar'e see who exactly in your opinion was better. See if you get 15.

I'm pretty sure I'll get over 15

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:46 PM
i'm pretty sure i'll get over 15

3....2.....1....Go!

JNA17
09-27-2011, 05:52 PM
3....2.....1....Go!

in no order.

Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Jerry Lucas
Elvin Hayes
Larry Nance
Dirk Nowitzki
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Kevin McHale
Chris Webber
Rasheed Wallace
George McGinnis
Pau Gasol

Off the top of my head, this comes to mind.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:53 PM
That however goes against your premise of D>O all day every day. Now you're basically saying that you're wrong. A team needs to be able to execute effectively on both ends of the floor in order to be victorious.

Here what I want you to do. Make a check of all the great PFs who came before Amar'e see who exactly in your opinion was better. See if you get 15.

rodman, duncan, nowitzki, barkley, hayes, mchale, malone, pettit, garnett, kemp, debuscherr, webber, wallace, perkins, mcadoo

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:54 PM
oh yeah gasol too

JNA17
09-27-2011, 05:54 PM
Mutombo better than Shaq?

Hakeem>Shaq with Hakeem's defense as the big factor.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:55 PM
rodman, duncan, nowitzki, barkley, hayes, mchale, malone, pettit, garnett, kemp, debuscherr, webber, wallace, perkins, mcadoo

Sam Perkins? really? and McAdoo was a C. Amar'e is also better than Kemp.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:56 PM
in no order.

Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Jerry Lucas
Elvin Hayes
Larry Nance
Dirk Nowitzki
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Kevin McHale
Chris Webber
Rasheed Wallace
George McGinnis
Pau Gasol

Off the top of my head, this comes to mind.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for Larry Nance, George McGinnis and Rasheed Wallace. Hell even Dolph.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd like to hear your reasoning for Larry Nance, George McGinnis and Rasheed Wallace. Hell even Dolph.

rasheed in his prime:drool:

plus he has a ring

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 05:59 PM
Hakeem>Shaq with Hakeem's defense as the big factor.

That's debateble. Hakeem was more skilled Shaq was more dominant. There is a reason Shaq went ahead of Hakeem in basically all the top 100 and top C lists there are out there. He produced more despite the fact that he was not as skill as the dream.

is McHale > Barkley?

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:02 PM
rasheed in his prime:drool:

plus he has a ring

A ring? That makes him a better player? Being the 4th best player on a stacked team makes him a better player than Amar'e? I was expecting a break down as to how good he was defensively, his range and mid post scoring ability.

Having a ring doesn't make you a better player its makes you more successful. James Worthy is not better than Elgin Baylor nor is Kevin McHale better than Karl Malone.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:02 PM
Sam Perkins? really? and McAdoo was a C. Amar'e is also better than Kemp.

lol dont know why I typed perkins:laugh:

I'd say kemp and amare are equal in my eyes right now.

Fresno
09-27-2011, 06:04 PM
in no order.

Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Jerry Lucas
Elvin Hayes
Larry Nance
Dirk Nowitzki
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Kevin McHale
Chris Webber
Rasheed Wallace
George McGinnis
Pau Gasol

Off the top of my head, this comes to mind.

You serious with this?

OP, Amare Stoudemire is going to go down as one of the most underrated players in NBA history. His Playoff performances have been great & his regular season numbers are up there with HOFers.

People also forget he changed his game following knee surgery & he had poor vision before the eye surgery made him wear goggles.

I mean if all people can come up with to criticize Amare for is that "he doesnt rebound well" then how do you explain Dirk & several other PF's in the HOF? He came into the league with 0 rebounding technique and in the system he has played in under D'Antoni has put him to run the floor in transition instead of constantly crashing the boards.

Amare has proven in the Playoffs even against Duncan(arguably greatest PF in NBA history) that if he has to crash the boards, he can do it with the best of them.

Hes so underrated its crazy, the guy can take over a game and he was the one taking over games when Phoenix was making the Playoffs.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:04 PM
A ring? That makes him a better player? Being the 4th best player on a stacked team makes him a better player than Amar'e? I was expecting a break down as to how good he was defensively, his range and mid post scoring ability.

Having a ring doesn't make you a better player its makes you more successful. James Worthy is not better than Elgin Baylor nor is Kevin McHale better than Karl Malone.

I said plus he has a ring

llemon
09-27-2011, 06:04 PM
rasheed in his prime:drool:

plus he has a ring

How many of you guys in here saw Gus Johnson play?

Fresno
09-27-2011, 06:05 PM
lol dont know why I typed perkins:laugh:

I'd say kemp and amare are equal in my eyes right now.

Amare has lasted longer than Kemp in terms of peak performance.

Kemp ruined his own career.

Amare re-tooled his game following major knee surgery and became an even better player.

JNA17
09-27-2011, 06:07 PM
I'd like to hear your reasoning for Larry Nance, George McGinnis and Rasheed Wallace. Hell even Dolph.

Larry Nance was a monster defense with his blocking. George Mcginnis actually did more then just score unlike Amare...REBOUND! Rasheed I have no actual reasoning, I just like him more then Amare. Which makes him better. As for Dolph, same with George Mcginnis.

I got class in a few minutes so I don't have time to go into full detail with my arguments. But as you can clearly see, I think you will find this brief rebuttal pretty damn factual. :cool:

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:09 PM
lol dont know why I typed perkins:laugh:

I'd say kemp and amare are equal in my eyes right now.

So then Amar'e is 15 then? See all you had to do was list them and there you have your answer. ;)

1. Rodman
2. Duncan
3. Nowitzki
4. Barkley
5. Hayes
6. Mchale
7. Malone
8. Pettit
9. Garnett
10. Debuscherr,
11. Webber
12. Wallace
13. McAdoo (though he's a C)
14. Pau
15. Kemp/Amar'e

Earlier you said no way but when you took the time you got him in your top 15 so what does that say. There is a way?

Fresno
09-27-2011, 06:14 PM
Larry Nance was a monster defense with his blocking. George Mcginnis actually did more then just score unlike Amare...REBOUND! Rasheed I have no actual reasoning, I just like him more then Amare. Which makes him better. As for Dolph, same with George Mcginnis.

I got class in a few minutes so I don't have time to go into full detail with my arguments. But as you can clearly see, I think you will find this brief rebuttal pretty damn factual. :cool:

Thats it? It all falls upon rebounding numbers?

Although Amare's 8.8 RPG average isnt as "bad" or "embarrasing" as you may think.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:16 PM
So then Amar'e is 15 then? See all you had to do was list them and there you have your answer. ;)

1. Rodman
2. Duncan
3. Nowitzki
4. Barkley
5. Hayes
6. Mchale
7. Malone
8. Pettit
9. Garnett
10. Debuscherr,
11. Webber
12. Wallace
13. McAdoo (though he's a C)
14. Pau
15. Kemp/Amar'e

Earlier you said no way but when you took the time you got him in your top 15 so what does that say. There is a way?

well maybe if I had more time I'd find 20:shrug::laugh2:

Slimsim
09-27-2011, 06:17 PM
So then Amar'e is 15 then? See all you had to do was list them and there you have your answer. ;)

1. Rodman
2. Duncan
3. Nowitzki
4. Barkley
5. Hayes
6. Mchale
7. Malone
8. Pettit
9. Garnett
10. Debuscherr,
11. Webber
12. Wallace
13. McAdoo (though he's a C)
14. Pau
15. Kemp/Amar'e

Earlier you said no way but when you took the time you got him in your top 15 so what does that say. There is a way?

Also the kobe 24 poster is a troll wouldn't take anything he say seriously

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:19 PM
Larry Nance was a monster defense with his blocking. George Mcginnis actually did more then just score unlike Amare...REBOUND! Rasheed I have no actual reasoning, I just like him more then Amare. Which makes him better. As for Dolph, same with George Mcginnis.

I got class in a few minutes so I don't have time to go into full detail with my arguments. But as you can clearly see, I think you will find this brief rebuttal pretty damn factual. :cool:

So then by this reasoning Boozer, Oakley, Dale Davis etc ahead of Amar'e as well right? How did you know what kind of rebounder Dolph was? Did you ever see him player? Larry Nance was good on D but a worst rebounder and no where near the offensive player that Amar'e is. Does that make it up. I mean seriously?

You choose a player over another because he was a better rebounder or defensively player ignoring other facets of the game and overall impact on league/team. It's really puzzling for me some of the reasonings. Why is it good for one and not the other? If you choose a player because he's a better rebounder then such a reasoning should hold true across the board should it not?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:20 PM
Thats it? It all falls upon rebounding numbers?

Although Amare's 8.8 RPG average isnt as "bad" or "embarrasing" as you may think.

dont let the regular stat fool ya, his TR% is atrocious:puke:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:20 PM
Also the kobe 24 poster is a troll wouldn't take anything he say seriously

:laugh::laugh:

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:21 PM
well maybe if I had more time I'd find 20:shrug::laugh2:

But you do admit there is a way right?

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:24 PM
dont let the regular stat fool ya, his TR% is atrocious:puke:

It's better than Pau's, Dirk's, DeBusschere's, Haywood, Nance, Rasheed, Chambers, Schrempf, McHale and Dirk. ;) They are extremely atrocious if that's the case.

Fresno
09-27-2011, 06:25 PM
It's better than Pau's, Dirk's, DeBusschere's, Haywood, Nance, McHale and Dirk. ;) They are extremely atrocious if that's the case.

Servings of Ether: 1

:laugh:

Im out.

bmd1101
09-27-2011, 06:32 PM
He's the 3rd most efficient (behind only McHale and Barkley) with the 7th best PER (trailing Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, TD and Pettit) and the 5th best career PPG average (behind Pettit, Barkley, Dirk and Malone) and you're saying he's not close? I don't get that. He's been in the league more years than CP3 and CP3 is already widely considered a top 10 PG of all time. I don't see why it's not close.

If you want to go by carrer stats, you gotta wait for Amar'e to have his down years too, his numbers will go down like every player and drop him in the rankings. Not saying that he couldn't be top15 at the end of his carrer, but I doubt it.

Da Knicks
09-27-2011, 06:35 PM
This would of being a very good topic if Amare was still with the suns as it is a knick jersey just makes people hate. Even the people that bring up stats all the time cannot deny that Amare is probably 11-12 all time. According to psd though him and Melo are trash and Cp3 is getting close to becoming the most overrated pg ever if he turns into a knick. Nothing new here knick fans are already used to all the hate.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:36 PM
It's better than Pau's, Dirk's, DeBusschere's, Haywood, Nance, Rasheed, Chambers, Schrempf, McHale and Dirk. ;) They are extremely atrocious if that's the case.

cant be right

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:39 PM
If you want to go by carrer stats, you gotta wait for Amar'e to have his down years too, his numbers will go down like every player and drop him in the rankings. Not saying that he couldn't be top15 at the end of his carrer, but I doubt it.

Very good point one is which should not be overlooked. This is however why I asked as of right now. We don't know what will take place down the road. There is no changing his peak however and based on peak statistical production alone he's certainly a top 15 PF. A lot of us viewed peak in very high regard as well. Even if he falls off in these numbers as he's expected to he already has a peak which ranks among some of the best ever.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:43 PM
cant be right

You're correct my bad Amar'e has a career TRB% of 14.46 while Pau's 14.51. When rounded off they are both 14.5. So they are equally as atrocious. Their peak is also 17.0 however.

As far as post season goes Pau is 14.5 while Amar'e is 14.1 but when looking at their peak Amar'e is 20.0 while Pau's is 17.9.

Overall Pau is by the smallest of margins a better rebounder than Amar'e.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 06:50 PM
You're correct my bad Amar'e has a career TRB% of 14.46 while Pau's 14.51. When rounded off they are both 14.5. So they are equally as atrocious. Their peak is also 17.0 however.

As far as post season goes Pau is 14.5 while Amar'e is 14.1 but when looking at their peak Amar'e is 20.0 while Pau's is 17.9.

Overall Pau is by the smallest of margins a better rebounder than Amar'e.

Pau this season 15.6
Amare 12.7

and amare doesn't play with bynum who has a TR% of 19.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Pau this season 15.6
Amare 12.7

and amare doesn't play with bynum who has a TR% of 19.

Wait aren't we talking careers? What does this season have to do with this? Either way you slice it for their careers Amar'e and Pau aren't seperated by very much in terms of their rebounding ability. It's Pau's D, ball handling and play-making ability and success as a #2 which sets him apart from Amar'e not his rebounding.

Da Knicks
09-27-2011, 06:57 PM
swashcuff just owning kobe 24! lol

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:03 PM
swashcuff just owning kobe 24! lol

cool story bro


Wait aren't we talking careers? What does this season have to do with this? Either way you slice it for their careers Amar'e and Pau aren't seperated by very much in terms of their rebounding ability. It's Pau's D, ball handling and play-making ability and success as a #2 which sets him apart from Amar'e not his rebounding.

well ok but if you look at their career rebounding, amare is on a downfall, while gasol rebounds have been going up when the seasons have gone by.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:06 PM
well ok but if you look at their career rebounding, amare is on a downfall, while gasol rebounds have been going up when the seasons have gone by.

Why are we still talking about rebounding? We have already established that Pau is the better player and it's not because of just rebounding but rather his all round game.

Back to the thread. You didn't answer my question earlier. Would you agree now that there is a way that Amar'e could possibly be considered top 15?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:10 PM
Why are we still talking about rebounding? We have already established that Pau is the better player and it's not because of just rebounding but rather his all round game.

Back to the thread. You didn't answer my question earlier. Would you agree now that there is a way that Amar'e could possibly be considered top 15?

based on what?all-around game....dont really think so.

KnicksorBust
09-27-2011, 07:14 PM
When talking about the greatest PFs off all time we rarely hear the name Amar'e Stoudemire mentioned but I started to wonder if we're overlooking him a but. Is he top 20 All Time?

I'll just throw some names out of guys who are considered some of the guys considered among the 30 or so best PFs ever.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Spencer Haywood
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Tom Chambers
Larry Nance
Dolph Schayes
Billy Cunningham
Buck Williams
Shawn Kemp
Rasheed Wallace
Tom Heinsohn
Elton Brand
Connie Hawkins
Chris Bosh
Dave DeBusschere
Detlef Schrempf
Jerry Lucas
Carlos Boozer
Zach Randolph
Maurice Lucas
James Worthy*
Shawn Marion*

Maybe I forgot a couple here and there but for the most part those are the names that many mention when speaking of the greatest PFs of all time.

For those who like stats , he's 7th All Time among PFs in PER, 3rd in TS% and 11th in WS/48 and at this point in his career he's 5th in PPG. He's one of the greatest offensive PFs of all time something that may have gone unnoticed.

So my question is.... as of right now is Amar'e a top 15 PF of all time?

Never really thought about this before but I'll take a quick look at your list. Let's see:

Clearly Better:
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Dirk
4. KG
5. Barkley
6. McHale

Better during their time:
7. Pettit
8. Debusschere

Close Matchup:
9. Webber
10. Williams
11. Gasol
12. Rodman
13. Hayes
14. Haywood
15. Chambers

I would put Amar'e somewhere in this group.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:16 PM
based on what?all-around game....dont really think so.


:laugh:

I give up. You essentially placed Amar'e in your top 15 now you're saying he isn't. Too funny. :laugh2:

Hustlenomics
09-27-2011, 07:16 PM
also the kobe 24 poster is a troll wouldn't take anything he say seriously

+1

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:18 PM
:laugh:

I give up. You essentially placed Amar'e in your top 15 now you're saying he isn't. Too funny. :laugh2:

no i didn't:confused:

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:21 PM
no i didn't:confused:

So if Amar'e and Kemp are equals and Kemp is in your top 15 what does that mean? A top 15 mind you that includes a player that is not applicable.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:22 PM
So if Amar'e and Kemp are equals and Kemp is in your top 15 what does that mean? A top 15 mind you that includes a player that is not applicable.

that list was just taken quickly from the top of my head.

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:24 PM
that list was just taken quickly from the top of my head.

So then Kemp is not top 15 you just made the list for kicks right? Where does Kemp rank on your real carefully analyzed and thought out list?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-27-2011, 07:25 PM
so then kemp is not top 15 you just made the list for kicks right? Where does kemp rank on your real carefully analyzed and thought out list?

15-20

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:32 PM
15-20

15-20 which means that there is certainly a way that Amar'e is a top 15 PF. Plain and simple. If Kemp and Amar'e are equals then Amar'e has a case for top 15. You said it yourself.

Slimsim
09-27-2011, 07:35 PM
Swash there's no point wasting your time with that troll as you can tell by his post he just want to bait no real logic behind his post

Swashcuff
09-27-2011, 07:37 PM
Swash there's no point wasting your time with that troll as you can tell by his post he just want to bait no real logic behind his post

He's NEVER going to admit it despite the fact that his posts have been extremely contradictory from the outset. His problem is that he can't be man enough to admit that their may be a possibility that a player that he dislikes has a case as a top 15 player at his position.

MTar786
09-27-2011, 07:49 PM
amare imo is equal to a prime jermaine oneal.. with better offense and worse defense

D-Leethal
09-27-2011, 08:18 PM
This thread fell off hard...........was some nice debates earlier today.........pretty much the first time I had a civil intelligent debate in the freakin NBA forum......

hard_candy
09-28-2011, 03:15 AM
He's the 3rd most efficient (behind only McHale and Barkley) with the 7th best PER (trailing Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, TD and Pettit) and the 5th best career PPG average (behind Pettit, Barkley, Dirk and Malone) and you're saying he's not close? I don't get that. He's been in the league more years than CP3 and CP3 is already widely considered a top 10 PG of all time. I don't see why it's not close.

Look up the word "defense" in the dictionary.

knickfan4life
09-28-2011, 03:26 AM
I'm a die hard knick fan. I have been watching basketball for 25 years now. NO. he is NOT a top 15 PF of all time. he does not consistently play defense so he cannot be on there. sorry. he is VERY explosive and great player, but not that great. if he plays defense, maybe... now, no

but his career is not over and a ring or 2 puts him up there IMO

Swashcuff
09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
Look up the word "defense" in the dictionary.

You know whats dumb? Many of those considered top 15.......... wait on it.......... its coming.......... wait a minute........... DON'T PLAY DEFENSE!!! :speechless:

Why is there different strokes for different folks?

Before telling me to look something up maybe you should do a little looking yourself and see what you may learn.

Swashcuff
09-28-2011, 08:15 AM
I'm a die hard knick fan. I have been watching basketball for 25 years now. NO. he is NOT a top 15 PF of all time. he does not consistently play defense so he cannot be on there. sorry. he is VERY explosive and great player, but not that great. if he plays defense, maybe... now, no

but his career is not over and a ring or 2 puts him up there IMO

So what if he wins a ring 5 years from now as the 3rd option is he magically better than someone then because of it? Makes no sense. It's like people who were saying J.Kidd is better than Stockton, Nash, GP because he won one. Utterly ridiculous.

If rings were the end all shouldn't Tommy Heinsohn Robert Horry and Jim Loscutoff.

When will you guys realize when debating the greatest players of all time simply having a ring doesn't make one player better than another. Simple context has to be placed. Rings don't make you a better player.

Knicks21
09-28-2011, 08:40 AM
So what if he wins a ring 5 years from now as the 3rd option is he magically better than someone then because of it? Makes no sense. It's like people who were saying J.Kidd is better than Stockton, Nash, GP because he won one. Utterly ridiculous.

If rings were the end all shouldn't Tommy Heinsohn Robert Horry and Jim Loscutoff.

When will you guys realize when debating the greatest players of all time simply having a ring doesn't make one player better than another. Simple context has to be placed. Rings don't make you a better player.

Greatest 2 lines of all time. :clap:

tredigs
09-28-2011, 09:01 AM
Amar'e is #3 all time in TS% for his career and as far as peak goes he's second only to Chuck. One of the most efficient scores in the history of the game not only at the PF position.

I understand CP3's prowess already but my point is people are blaming longevity and not looking at what the player has accomplished thus far in the case of Amar'e.

Defense. Amare gives up a huge chunk of what he produces offensively on the defensive end; Underwhelming rebounder, weak facilitator.

The man can score. Probably a top ten scoring PF of all time.

I'm not sure he cracks the top 30 in damn near any other facet of the game, being well outside of the top 75 in some. Overall impact given longevity and lack of a championship run (while playing alongside a top 10 PG all time)? Off the top of my head, top 22-26. Absolutely room to grow if NY signs an elite point or Center and Amare can shine.

Swashcuff
09-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Defense. Amare gives up a huge chunk of what he produces offensively on the defensive end; Underwhelming rebounder, weak facilitator.

The man can score. Probably a top ten scoring PF of all time.

I'm not sure he cracks the top 30 in damn near any other facet of the game, being well outside of the top 75 in some. Overall impact given longevity and lack of a championship run (while playing alongside a top 10 PG all time)? Off the top of my head, top 22-26. Absolutely room to grow if NY signs an elite point or Center and Amare can shine.

I can respect and understand this. However just do an analysis of all the PFs you'd put above him and see if you really think he should be that low. Many of those very guys have holes on D and in the rebounding department that are way bigger than Amare's and not to mention the simple fact that they are no where near as efficient and their peak couldn't hold a candle to Amare's. I'm certain if you do a bit more digging he'll crack your top 20.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-28-2011, 09:14 AM
So what if he wins a ring 5 years from now as the 3rd option is he magically better than someone then because of it? Makes no sense. It's like people who were saying J.Kidd is better than Stockton, Nash, GP because he won one. Utterly ridiculous.

If rings were the end all shouldn't Tommy Heinsohn Robert Horry and Jim Loscutoff.

When will you guys realize when debating the greatest players of all time simply having a ring doesn't make one player better than another. Simple context has to be placed. Rings don't make you a better player.

not a better player, but it will raise the player's stock for sure which means a higher place in TOP.

mkdo
09-28-2011, 11:23 AM
i get that he doesn't play good defense all the time but to say that he is not not even close is absurd. for what it's worth he never really played with a real center in his whole career so some of you are probably exaggerating his defense or lack thereof.

the man can abuse duncan, garnett, nowitzki any day of the week.

give credit where credit is due people.

mkdo
09-28-2011, 11:36 AM
You know whats dumb? Many of those considered top 15.......... wait on it.......... its coming.......... wait a minute........... DON'T PLAY DEFENSE!!! :speechless:

Why is there different strokes for different folks?

Before telling me to look something up maybe you should do a little looking yourself and see what you may learn.

right on target here man.

it's amazing how defense becomes a factor on judging amare when it didn't matter in rating those who came before him. enough with overrating the so-called legends people.

for all of you who didn't know, amare didn't play with a center to cover him on defense or at least help him. we all know what a tyson chandler could do to a dirk nowitzki don't we?:speechless:

TheGreenMonster
09-28-2011, 12:10 PM
Not even top 25... He can't defend and is only a slightly above average rebounder. When you think of great like Rodman and Duncan you can't even include this guy in the discussion.

mkdo
09-28-2011, 12:37 PM
Not even top 25... He can't defend and is only a slightly above average rebounder. When you think of great like Rodman and Duncan you can't even include this guy in the discussion.

what is this? the top rebounders of all time thread?
did you even watch amare go head to head against duncan? even greg popovich would say that amare outperformed timmy every time those two faced each other in the playoffs

llemon
09-28-2011, 12:40 PM
what is this? the top rebounders of all time thread?
did you even watch amare go head to head against duncan? even greg popovich would say that amare outperformed timmy every time those two faced each other in the playoffs

So Amare is a better PF than Duncan?

mkdo
09-28-2011, 12:45 PM
So Amare is a better PF than Duncan?

nah. i'm just saying that you can't say that a player is "not even top 25" when he constantly abuses that person many consider as the best pf of all time. get my point dude?

llemon
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
nah. i'm just saying that you can't say that a player is "not even top 25" when he constantly abuses that person many consider as the best pf of all time. get my point dude?

No I don't get your point, because you don't seem to have one, dude.

mkdo
09-28-2011, 01:07 PM
No I don't get your point, because you don't seem to have one, dude.

well i stated my arguments in english, so if you still don't get it i must assume that you're just another idiot :clap:

kdspurman
09-28-2011, 01:07 PM
nah. i'm just saying that you can't say that a player is "not even top 25" when he constantly abuses that person many consider as the best pf of all time. get my point dude?

I wouldn't say constantly abused considering their numbers are almost identical. Except the rebounding where Duncan is +3 in the reg season and almost +5 in the playoffs. Just check the comparison (especially in the playoffs) , and show where the "constantly abusiveness" takes place lol Honestly, a lot of it was let Amare get his and contain everyone else. Not to mention the high octane offense and the brilliance of Nash.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=stoudam01

llemon
09-28-2011, 01:12 PM
well i stated my arguments in english, so if you still don't get it i must assume that you're just another idiot :clap:

Of course. I would hope that YOU would think that I'm an idiot.

JordansBulls
09-28-2011, 01:17 PM
Hope everyone realizes there are palyers that play both very good offense and defense, and many times that puts them above players that are just very good at offense.

Now Amare is very much the better offensive player than Dennis Rodman, but Rodman is obviously the more valuable player to his team than Amare, at least in my opinion.

Definitely not. If Rodman is your #1 or #2 guy you aren't going far. If he is your #1 guy you aren't making the playoffs. If he is your #2 guy you won't win a title.
With Amare as your #1 guy you make the playoffs easily. With Amare as your #2 guy you win a title.

Example: If Rodman is the #2 or 2nd best on Magic Johnson's team, there is no way in hell he is winning a title. Now if Amare is the #2 or 2nd best on Magic Johnson's team it is a high probability they can win the title.

JordansBulls
09-28-2011, 01:20 PM
Hakeem>Shaq with Hakeem's defense as the big factor.

Hakeem is better in that he carried a franchise that never won anything prior to him arrival to back to back titles. Shaq had to go to a winning organization in order to win titles. Shaq doing what he did in LA in Orlando makes him an arguable top 3-4 player all time.

llemon
09-28-2011, 01:40 PM
With Amare as your #1 guy you make the playoffs easily. With Amare as your #2 guy you win a title.

Which # was Amare this season?

And do you think Pistons win there two Bad Boys Titles or Bulls win there last three Titles with Amare in place of Rodman?

Or Pistons win their 2004 Title with Amare in place of Rasheed?

Pistol_Pete
09-28-2011, 02:06 PM
My quick answer off the top of my head is no. I think Amare is just too one dimensional. He's a scoring PF. He doesn't rebound that great or play defense that great, and he doesn't really fit into a team system well.

However, this is a tough question to answer. I don't think you can just rank anyone here without context.

I'd rather have Amare than Rodman if that person was going to be the only star on the team. If I had a star or two on the team, I'd probably rather have Rodman (I'd rather have Jordan/Pippen/Rodman or Kobe/Shaq/Rodman over them with Amare). If we're talking about cap space, I would probably even rather have a prime Charles Oakley over Amare. That's a stretch, but he'd fit in a system better. If I had to choose a guy to be on my team today, I'd choose Blake Griffin and Kevin Love over Amare. I'd probably take Larry Johnson in his prime over Amare as well.

Would you rather have Amare over James Worthy? I probably would if he were the sole star. But if I have Magic and Kareem, I'd probably rather have worthy.

Top 15 of ALL TIME, I don't think you can put him there yet.

Da Knicks
09-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Which # was Amare this season?

And do you think Pistons win there two Bad Boys Titles or Bulls win there last three Titles with Amare in place of Rodman?

Or Pistons win their 2004 Title with Amare in place of Rasheed?

I think the pistons would of dominated if they had Stat instead of Rodman, and a prime Amare with Mj and Pippen would just not be fair for the league. Rasheed was one of the better players for the pistons but i think Amare is just more explosive and he would of finally had a center in Ben Wallace that could help him out.

llemon
09-28-2011, 02:45 PM
I think the pistons would of dominated if they had Stat instead of Rodman, and a prime Amare with Mj and Pippen would just not be fair for the league. Rasheed was one of the better players for the pistons but i think Amare is just more explosive and he would of finally had a center in Ben Wallace that could help him out.

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

D-Leethal
09-28-2011, 02:49 PM
Look up the word "defense" in the dictionary.


I'm a die hard knick fan. I have been watching basketball for 25 years now. NO. he is NOT a top 15 PF of all time. he does not consistently play defense so he cannot be on there. sorry. he is VERY explosive and great player, but not that great. if he plays defense, maybe... now, no

but his career is not over and a ring or 2 puts him up there IMO

I guess Barkley and Dirk should be taken off the list too than? Or Amare is the only one who gets banished from the list because of his lackluster defense?

Kashmir13579
09-28-2011, 08:12 PM
dont get it twisted;)

Don't get what twisted? The post he was replying to was so elementary and ignorant it was literally impossible to get twisted.

JEDean89
09-28-2011, 09:16 PM
If he retired tomorrow, he wouldn't be top 15. However if he and Melo, attain Chris Paul, Stat will become an utter beast. Paul would be a perfect fit to run the pick and roll with Amare. If Amare can up his rebounds and have a few more 25 - 10 seasons then he should go down as at least a top 15. If he wins a title in NY, even with Melo, he would be a top 10, bringing a title to New York would be legendary.

Knicks21
09-28-2011, 11:44 PM
not a better player, but it will raise the player's stock for sure which means a higher place in TOP.

Rings count towards hall of fame, when doing a top 10 or whatever you measure on a players abilities, not how many rings he has.

Sactown
09-29-2011, 12:20 AM
Definitely not. If Rodman is your #1 or #2 guy you aren't going far. If he is your #1 guy you aren't making the playoffs. If he is your #2 guy you won't win a title.
With Amare as your #1 guy you make the playoffs easily. With Amare as your #2 guy you win a title.

Example: If Rodman is the #2 or 2nd best on Magic Johnson's team, there is no way in hell he is winning a title. Now if Amare is the #2 or 2nd best on Magic Johnson's team it is a high probability they can win the title.

Umm did I make a mistake, or did Steve Nash and Amare not win multiple titles?

seikou8
09-29-2011, 07:35 AM
amare get hate but it is ok steve nash wasnt or shouldnt be your number one option hes is
a 2or 3 option on champion team rather start my francise with dominant big then over stack pg positon

thenetslegend
09-29-2011, 07:52 AM
amare get hate but it is ok steve nash wasnt or shouldnt be your number one option hes is
a 2or 3 option on champion team rather start my francise with dominant big then over stack pg positon

3rd option??! :speechless:

seikou8
09-29-2011, 08:24 AM
3rd option??! :speechless:

yes hes good but he cant lead a team to championship

mkdo
09-29-2011, 09:11 AM
yes hes good but he cant lead a team to championship

as good as a point guard nash is, his teams can only go as far as his receivers go. even magic johnson was not a first option. :cool:

mkdo
09-29-2011, 09:17 AM
Umm did I make a mistake, or did Steve Nash and Amare not win multiple titles?

they could have won at least one if not for the referee who was betting for the spurs. does anybody else remember nash flying into the scorer's table cause of a guy named robert horry?

thenetslegend
09-29-2011, 09:26 AM
yes hes good but he cant lead a team to championship

so steve nash had/has to be a 3rd option to win? i disagree, 1st or 2nd option.

mkdo
09-29-2011, 09:27 AM
Which # was Amare this season?

And do you think Pistons win there two Bad Boys Titles or Bulls win there last three Titles with Amare in place of Rodman?

Or Pistons win their 2004 Title with Amare in place of Rasheed?

oh man you are in love with sheed and rodman :eyebrow: :rolleyes:

hmmn amare with the pistons makes me think that they could have won more than one finals series they appeared in.

JordansBulls
09-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Umm did I make a mistake, or did Steve Nash and Amare not win multiple titles?

Steve Nash ain't Magic Johnson.

llemon
09-29-2011, 12:01 PM
Steve Nash ain't Magic Johnson.

More importantly, Amare ain't Kareem.

D-Leethal
09-29-2011, 12:09 PM
More importantly, Amare ain't Kareem.

Nash isn't the best PG of all time (Magic)
Stoudemire isn't the best C of all time (Kareem)

What is your point? And how is one more important than the other? Top 15 and GOAT is a bit different buddy

Sactown
09-29-2011, 01:48 PM
Steve Nash ain't Magic Johnson.

Did you completely ignore the part I put in bold? you said as a #2 you win a championship.. steve nash #1 amare #2 and you even had Joe Johnson at #3 and didn't win...

Even this season in the playoffs Amare was the #2 and what happened? first round exit..

Slimsim
09-29-2011, 02:02 PM
Did you completely ignore the part I put in bold? you said as a #2 you win a championship.. steve nash #1 amare #2 and you even had Joe Johnson at #3 and didn't win...

Even this season in the playoffs Amare was the #2 and what happened? first round exit..

Injury ?

JordansBulls
09-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Did you completely ignore the part I put in bold? you said as a #2 you win a championship.. steve nash #1 amare #2 and you even had Joe Johnson at #3 and didn't win...

Even this season in the playoffs Amare was the #2 and what happened? first round exit..

And I clearly said that you can win a title as your #2 guy if you have an all time great like MJ or Magic or Bird or Kobe or someone like that as your #1 guy. But if Rodman is your #2 or 2nd best player you ain't going to win a title.

llemon
09-29-2011, 02:42 PM
And I clearly said that you can win a title as your #2 guy if you have an all time great like MJ or Magic or Bird or Kobe or someone like that as your #1 guy. But if Rodman is your #2 or 2nd best player you ain't going to win a title.

Nothing to really verify that.

Sactown
09-29-2011, 05:40 PM
Nothing to really verify that.

This!

And scoring isn't the only focus in basketball... some teams need a defensive anchor and not a scoring PF.. I wouldn't say Amare is a better PF because he can put put 20-25 a night.. he can't get 10 rebounds on a poor rebounding team.. and his post defense isn't very good either.. That's why I would pick Bosh ahead of Amare and depending on the team needs I might take Rodman too..

llemon
09-29-2011, 06:28 PM
This!

And scoring isn't the only focus in basketball... some teams need a defensive anchor and not a scoring PF.. I wouldn't say Amare is a better PF because he can put put 20-25 a night.. he can't get 10 rebounds on a poor rebounding team.. and his post defense isn't very good either.. That's why I would pick Bosh ahead of Amare and depending on the team needs I might take Rodman too..

WOW!!! Somehow you think the words of a mere fan verify the Eternal (up to this point) Ratings of the Rankings of any player at any position.

I can't say that I admire your confidence, as it exposes a lack of actual thought, but more power to you, my brother.

You may, or may not, thrive in this world that we live in.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 06:48 PM
12+ pages into the thread and no one has provided any reasoning why Amar'e shouldn't be top 15.

You guys keep saying D but yet you put worst defensive players ahead of him, you keep saying rebounding and you keep putting worst rebounders ahead of him. I see no other reason but plain ignorance and bias. Very few posters who don't think he's top 15 actually made an analysis of who came before and don't think he's up to scratch while the vast majority base their "opinion" on nothing but ignorance.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 06:54 PM
This!

And scoring isn't the only focus in basketball... some teams need a defensive anchor and not a scoring PF.. I wouldn't say Amare is a better PF because he can put put 20-25 a night.. he can't get 10 rebounds on a poor rebounding team.. and his post defense isn't very good either.. That's why I would pick Bosh ahead of Amare and depending on the team needs I might take Rodman too..

Rodman has a case for a top 60 player all time because of his defense rebounding and positive intangible worth. He is indeed ahead of Amar'e.

Prior to this year Bosh was no better than Amar'e in terms of rebounding or defense. At their very peak Amar'e has proven to be better than Bosh both in the regular and the post season. Amar'e also has the career resume (4 All NBA 2nd teams and 1 1st) while Bosh does not stack up in that regard.

Again the question is not who you would take over whom because different dynamics would then come into play but rather who was the better player. No one will say that to this point in their respective careers that Bosh is better than Amar'e. I can hear someone saying Bosh is better right now but thus far for their entire career there is not way Bosh is better.

seikou8
09-29-2011, 07:40 PM
so steve nash had/has to be a 3rd option to win? i disagree, 1st or 2nd option. hes been a one option or two and failed so now hes on the tail end of his carreer he has better chance to win as 3rd option and win like jason kidd did

llemon
09-29-2011, 07:42 PM
12+ pages into the thread and no one has provided any reasoning why Amar'e shouldn't be top 15.

You guys keep saying D but yet you put worst defensive players ahead of him, you keep saying rebounding and you keep putting worst rebounders ahead of him. I see no other reason but plain ignorance and bias. Very few posters who don't think he's top 15 actually made an analysis of who came before and don't think he's up to scratch while the vast majority base their "opinion" on nothing but ignorance.

Holy Geezuz Kriste.

Amare a top 15 PF of all time?

If that's what floats your boat, then please feel free to sail away.

That would be ME, disagreeing with YOU.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 09:28 PM
Holy Geezuz Kriste.

Amare a top 15 PF of all time?

If that's what floats your boat, then please feel free to sail away.

That would be ME, disagreeing with YOU.

I could care less about what you think quite honestly. Unless you can give reasoning as to why certain players are better than Amar'e then I could really care less about you and what you think.

You come into every thread adding nothing to the discussion but baseless comments. Why don't you sail away if you have nothing substantial to add to the argument?

LA_Raiders
09-29-2011, 09:38 PM
No

KnicksorBust
09-29-2011, 09:43 PM
I like Swash's style in this thread. To him the debate hasn't even started yet. The NBA Forum, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

KnicksorBust
09-29-2011, 09:44 PM
No

I can't imagine a better post to go right before mine.

llemon
09-29-2011, 09:50 PM
I could care less about what you think quite honestly. Unless you can give reasoning as to why certain players are better than Amar'e then I could really care less about you and what you think.

You come into every thread adding nothing to the discussion but baseless comments. Why don't you sail away if you have nothing substantial to add to the argument?

Aw, honey, settle down.

I disagre with you, and I'll state that opinion in anyway I like.

If you have a problem with that, too damned bad.

My opinions are based on observing the game as it is played, not by reading stats and having others influence my opinion.

But, best of luck to you anyway.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 09:55 PM
I like Swash's style in this thread. To him the debate hasn't even started yet. The NBA Forum, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Dolph Schayes

In no particular order these are 12 players IMO who are clearly better than Amar'e Stoudemire. I'd like to hear someone argue why Sheed, Chambers, Nance, Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal, DeBusschere, Billy Cunningham, Buck Williams, Kemp, George McGinnis and/or Spencer Haywood and whoever is in their top 15-25 is ahead of Amar'e.

Are they all better rebounders? No! are they all better defenders? No! So why are they getting credited for it? It's different strokes for different folks and ignorance at it's finest. I mean seriously how can Amar'e be out of the top 15 because of his lackluster D and sub par rebounding when he's better defensively and a better rebounder than player's they are putting above him?

Sad thing is I already know the answers, Sheed was better defensively, Nance was a better shot blocker, Williams was a better rebounder etc. Then in that case shouldn't Kevin Garnett be the top PF in the NBA because he's better defensively than Dirk a better rebounder and a MUCH better play maker.

To this point in this thread 4 posters have named players who they'd put ahead of Amar'e. In turn one of them basically conceded that Amar'e is deserving of top 15 despite the fact that he doesn't even want to admit it.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 09:57 PM
Aw, honey, settle down.

I disagre with you, and I'll state that opinion in anyway I like.

If you have a problem with that, too damned bad.

My opinions are based on observing the game as it is played, not by reading stats and having others influence my opinion.

But, best of luck to you anyway.

Well say something about what you saw instead of spewing ridiculousness throughout the entire thread. Matter of a fact damn near every single thread I see you taking a part it.

llemon
09-29-2011, 10:00 PM
Well say something about what you saw instead of spewing ridiculousness throughout the entire thread. Matter of a fact damn near every single thread I see you taking a part it.

Damn, you really are upset.

And wrong, as usual.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 10:01 PM
Damn, you really are upset.

And wrong, as usual.

Great contribution as usual.

KnicksorBust
09-29-2011, 10:04 PM
Never really thought about this before but I'll take a quick look at your list. Let's see:

Clearly Better:
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Dirk
4. KG
5. Barkley
6. McHale

Better during their time:
7. Pettit
8. Debusschere

Close Matchup:
9. Webber
10. Williams
11. Gasol
12. Rodman
13. Hayes
14. Haywood
15. Chambers

I would put Amar'e somewhere in this group.


Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Dolph Schayes

In no particular order these are 12 players IMO who are better than Amar'e Stoudemire. I'd like to hear someone argue why Sheed, Chambers, Nance, Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal, DeBusschere, Billy Cunningham, Buck Williams, Kemp, George McGinnis and/or Spencer Haywood and whoever else some of those posters have in their top 25 is better than Amar'e.

Are they all better rebounders? No! are they all better defenders? No! So why are they getting credited for it? It's different strokes for different folks and ignorance at it's finest. I mean seriously how can Amar'e be out of the top 15 because of his lackluster D and sub par rebounding when he's better defensively and a better rebounder than player's they are putting above him?

To this point in this thread 4 posters have named players who they'd put ahead of Amar'e. In turn one of them basically conceded that Amar'e is deserving of top 15 despite the fact that he doesn't even want to admit it.

Similar lists. I disagree with Rodman and Dolph Schayes but other than that it's good. He's clearly in the top 10-12 range with room to improve if he and the Knicks make some deep runs in the next 2-3 years.

Swashcuff
09-29-2011, 10:12 PM
Similar lists. I disagree with Rodman and Dolph Schayes but other than that it's good. He's clearly in the top 10-12 range with room to improve if he and the Knicks make some deep runs in the next 2-3 years.

I was going to put an * next to Schayes TBH but I guess that's the homer in me :laugh2:. For me Rodman's D and rebounding ability (arguably the greatest rebounder ever) is too good to be overlooked. Just like Amare's offense is too good to be overlooked as well. I also agree with JB's reasoning however that Amar'e is a better 1st/2nd option than Rodman ever be.

llemon
09-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Great contribution as usual.

And a contribution that is right on target, as usual.

Thanks.

3mikee_
09-29-2011, 10:45 PM
No... it's not close.

Sactown
09-30-2011, 02:17 AM
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Pau Gasol
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Chris Webber
Dolph Schayes

In no particular order these are 12 players IMO who are clearly better than Amar'e Stoudemire. I'd like to hear someone argue why Sheed, Chambers, Nance, Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal, DeBusschere, Billy Cunningham, Buck Williams, Kemp, George McGinnis and/or Spencer Haywood and whoever is in their top 15-25 is ahead of Amar'e.

Are they all better rebounders? No! are they all better defenders? No! So why are they getting credited for it? It's different strokes for different folks and ignorance at it's finest. I mean seriously how can Amar'e be out of the top 15 because of his lackluster D and sub par rebounding when he's better defensively and a better rebounder than player's they are putting above him?

Sad thing is I already know the answers, Sheed was better defensively, Nance was a better shot blocker, Williams was a better rebounder etc. Then in that case shouldn't Kevin Garnett be the top PF in the NBA because he's better defensively than Dirk a better rebounder and a MUCH better play maker.

To this point in this thread 4 posters have named players who they'd put ahead of Amar'e. In turn one of them basically conceded that Amar'e is deserving of top 15 despite the fact that he doesn't even want to admit it.

I actually do think they are much better rebounders, and better defensive players.. Amare is on a team where he should be getting 10 plus a night...

Sactown
09-30-2011, 02:29 AM
WOW!!! Somehow you think the words of a mere fan verify the Eternal (up to this point) Ratings of the Rankings of any player at any position.

I can't say that I admire your confidence, as it exposes a lack of actual thought, but more power to you, my brother.

You may, or may not, thrive in this world that we live in.

LOL! I was expressing my opinion as I agree with the previous post.. I don't recall saying the fans words were concrete evidence? thanks for your concern

Antipod
09-30-2011, 03:13 AM
The only way he could crack top 15 is if he wins a ring as the 1st or at least 2nd best player of the team.
Plus, the injuries and age are not on his side ... so my answer is no.

penny421
09-30-2011, 07:27 AM
Does anybody remember what injury Amar'e had in 2009? He missed only 29 games that season but his numbers took a serious hit since then.
He was never the same player after 2008 (his best season).

heyman321
09-30-2011, 09:28 AM
Does anybody remember what injury Amar'e had in 2009? He missed only 29 games that season but his numbers took a serious hit since then.
He was never the same player after 2008 (his best season).

He was poked in the retina.

Swashcuff
09-30-2011, 10:16 AM
I actually do think they are much better rebounders, and better defensive players.. Amare is on a team where he should be getting 10 plus a night...

Great analysis. :clap:

mkdo
10-01-2011, 12:06 PM
12+ pages into the thread and no one has provided any reasoning why amar'e shouldn't be top 15.

You guys keep saying d but yet you put worst defensive players ahead of him, you keep saying rebounding and you keep putting worst rebounders ahead of him. I see no other reason but plain ignorance and bias. Very few posters who don't think he's top 15 actually made an analysis of who came before and don't think he's up to scratch while the vast majority base their "opinion" on nothing but ignorance.

agreed man

mkdo
10-01-2011, 12:10 PM
Holy Geezuz Kriste.

Amare a top 15 PF of all time?

If that's what floats your boat, then please feel free to sail away.

That would be ME, disagreeing with YOU.

your opinion will not matter without substantial reasoning
how ignorant can people get? :mad:

mkdo
10-01-2011, 12:13 PM
Aw, honey, settle down.

I disagre with you, and I'll state that opinion in anyway I like.

If you have a problem with that, too damned bad.

My opinions are based on observing the game as it is played, not by reading stats and having others influence my opinion.

But, best of luck to you anyway.

why participate in a forum then?

llemon
10-01-2011, 12:36 PM
why participate in a forum then?

To state my opinion

llemon
10-01-2011, 12:43 PM
your opinion will not matter without substantial reasoning
how ignorant can people get? :mad:

Apparently, very ignorant, as what you think is substantial reasoning is just your opinion.

Tony_Starks
10-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Top 15 of all time? No way in hell. I can think of a bunch of guys off the top of my head that were better like Worthy, Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Moses Malone, Rodman, McHale, C Webb, Rasheed, KG, Gasol, Kemp (skinny Kemp)..etc. And thats just that I could think of, I didn't even get into some of the 70's legends.