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JordansBulls
09-24-2011, 06:36 PM
Voting for #39 has concluded and PSD's Official #39 NBA Player of all time is....

Bill Walton

Top 4 Voting:

Bill Walton = 9 votes
George Gervin = 7 votes
Willis Reed = 6 votes
Dominique Wilkins = 4 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)
30. Patrick Ewing (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649815)
31. Bob Cousy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=650318)
32. Walt Frazier (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651181)
33. Clyde Drexler (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651737)
34. Gary Payton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652073)
35. Jason Kidd (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652644)
36. Kevin Mchale (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653111)
37. Allen Iverson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653515)
38. Steve Nash (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654056)
39. Bill Walton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654694)


Voting will now begin for the #40 NBA Player All Time


These are the players that can be voted for the #40 spot.

Willis Reed
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
George Gervin
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
Artis Gilmore
Hal Greer
Anfernee Hardaway
Tim Hardaway
Grant Hill

JordansBulls
09-24-2011, 07:00 PM
Not sure who to go with at this point, I voted Nique though, but probably should have voted Reed.

Stuckey#3
09-24-2011, 08:11 PM
Gervin. Completely dominated the offensive side of the ball for a decade.

MTar786
09-24-2011, 08:47 PM
i voted gervin.. it was either him or reed

for me its

gervin
reed
wilkins
webber
tmac
tim hardaway
gilmore

in this order.. my mind can be changed for the last 3 though.. maybe 4

i wish i could have had penny, hill and zo in here.. but their injuries robbed them of too muc of their career

Knick Killer
09-25-2011, 06:57 AM
Career 36 Mnts: Pnt / Rbn / Ast
George Gervin: 26.9 / 5.7 / 2.8
Dmnque Wlkins: 25.2 / 6.8 / 2.5

Playoff Stats: Mnts / Pnt / Rbn / Ast
George Gervin: 38.0 / 26.5 / 6.9 / 2.9
Dmnque Wlkins: 38.8 / 25.4 / 6.7 / 2.6

All-NBA (1st) / All-Star Games / Playoff Games
George Gervin: 5 / 12 / 84
Dmnque Wlkins: 1 / 9 / 56

Vote: George Gervin

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 11:20 AM
Career 36 Mnts: Pnt / Rbn / Ast
George Gervin: 26.9 / 5.7 / 2.8
Dmnque Wlkins: 25.2 / 6.8 / 2.5

Playoff Stats: Mnts / Pnt / Rbn / Ast
George Gervin: 38.0 / 26.5 / 6.9 / 2.9
Dmnque Wlkins: 38.8 / 25.4 / 6.7 / 2.6

All-NBA (1st) / All-Star Games / Playoff Games
George Gervin: 5 / 12 / 84
Dmnque Wlkins: 1 / 9 / 56

Vote: George Gervin

You do realize that the per36 you used were inclusive of Gervin's ABA years right? in the NBA his per36 goes 28.1 pts, 4.9 rebs and 3.0 ast per game. His NBA only TS%, eFG%, PER, WS/48 and ORtg were also better than when his ABA years was included. Only difference was that in the ABA he rebounded more than when he came over to the NBA.

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 12:01 PM
Vote: George Gervin

Despite his lack of defense, playmaking and rebounding, George Gervin is the better player. He was one of the best pure scores in the history of the game as well as being one of the most positively impactful (making his team offense better while scoring at a high rate so no empty stats) offensive players ever.

Just to paint a picture as to how efficient Gervin was let's compare his TS% to league TS% for every season he's been in the league since one by the name of Hellcrooner has been on record for calling Gervin inefficient.


Season LGTS% GG's
1985-86 0.541 .534
1984-85 0.543 .564
1983-84 0.543 .551
1982-83 0.531 .561
1981-82 0.539 .562
1980-81 0.535 .555
1979-80 0.531 .587
1978-79 0.530 .591
1977-78 0.515 .594
1976-77 0.511 .604


The last season of his career was the only one in which he was under league average TS% but by that time his 180 lbs frame had caught up with him and he really wasn't the force he was. Though he only played 10 seasons in the league he was a 4 time scoring champ and led the post season in scoring on 5 different occasions. He's one of the greatest volume and pure scorers of all time.

Iceman here for me.

KnicksorBust
09-25-2011, 12:53 PM
Reed was a 21-13 guy who brought his A game on BOTH ends of the floor. League MVP and 2x Finals MVP. I can't justify putting a one-dimensional player who never lead a team to a title over him. And that sentence works for both of the players currently winning this vote.

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Reed was a 21-13 guy who brought his A game on BOTH ends of the floor. League MVP and 2x Finals MVP. I can't justify putting a one-dimensional player who never lead a team to a title over him. And that sentence works for both of the players currently winning this vote.

Did Reed lead his team to a title though? I mean seriously Walt was the team's best player on both those title teams not ignoring the fact that those teams were absolutely stacked as compared to whom Gervin played along. I can understand an argument for Reed but I won't consider the fact that he won 2 titles in very high regard. Is it a major plus YES but it's not like he did a Rick Barry, Dirk or a Hakeem. He had very good teammates which is why despite winning the FMVP in 73 he was 5th on his team in regular season and playoff scoring.

KnicksorBust
09-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Did Reed lead his team to a title though? I mean seriously Walt was the team's best player on both those title teams not ignoring the fact that those teams were absolutely stacked as compared to whom Gervin played along. I can understand an argument for Reed but I won't consider the fact that he won 2 titles in very high regard. Is it a major plus YES but it's not like he did a Rick Barry, Dirk or a Hakeem. He had very good teammates which is why despite winning the FMVP in 73 he was 5th on his team in regular season and playoff scoring.

Yes he did and that was going against some of the best centers of all-time. He had a 28 game stretch against Unseld, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt and avareged 25-14 with 50 percent shooting. He (and Frazier) made those Knicks teams what they were. He was the true leader and captain of that team and brought it on both ends of the court not just one. It makes me wish they had 82games.com available for Gervin's day b/c his OPP production would be through the roof.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 02:28 PM
Reed should immediately follow Walton since its apparent that longevity cannot trump their short lived dominance. Reed was the best player in the league for a short while, that should count for something here.

Also its hard for me to vote Gervin when there are so many swings from the recent era still on board. Gervin has the mythic status, the legendary signature shot and the cool nickname but he can't hold a candle to the swings we just witnessed. Tmac ***** on him as an individual, Pierce was an imposing 2 way player with a ring and durability to best his, even Ray Allen has an argument. Really the greatest advantage Ice has is that he came first. I understand that this is more of a career nomination than an individual one so I won't argue too much against Ice. I definitely have him before Nique but I have Pierce and Tmac ahead of him.

KnicksorBust
09-25-2011, 03:07 PM
Then vote for him.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 06:39 PM
Nah looks like its down to nique it gervin, im going to help ice in that comparison

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 08:50 PM
Reed should immediately follow Walton since its apparent that longevity cannot trump their short lived dominance. Reed was the best player in the league for a short while, that should count for something here.

How short is this while? I doubt you mean an entire season. At his best he was top 3 but West, Russell, Kareem, Walt, Wilt, Hondo and Dr J ensured that he wasn't #1.

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Yes he did and that was going against some of the best centers of all-time. He had a 28 game stretch against Unseld, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt and avareged 25-14 with 50 percent shooting.

Never read that. Good stuff. I'm doing the research myself but do you have a link for it or can you post the article/vid.

Edit: Got it though he was more along the lines of 24.3/14 and on 48% shooting. Also despite his solid play rookie Kareem owned him.

Unseld also had his way with him at times in that post season. In Game 3 of the ED Semifinals he scored 23 points and grabbed 34 rebounds in a 127-113 victory over New York, completely outplaying Willis Reed, who had 12 points and five rebounds, and outrebounding the entire Knicks team 34-30. Unseld averaged 10 and 23 against him in that series while Reed averaged 25 and 16.2. Looks good but when you dig a bit deeper you'd find out how he went about achieving those numbers and how it wasn't a walk in the park.

Wasn't able to find the game by game #s but I did find


Meanwhile, this year’s MVP the Knicks’ Willis Reed, has been sub-par in his last two battles with Unseld, and on Wednesday received a cortisone shot for his ailing left knee. Front-line sub Cazzie Russell of the Knicks also got a cortisone shot Wednesday.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BcktAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lqAFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6515,1383775


Willis Reed had 36 points and a club playoff record 36 rebounds to lead New York to a 101-80 win to take a 3-2 lead.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AtoqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0mwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5350,453822


“Willis Reed, who was named the NBA’s most valuable player and had 36 points and 36 rebounds in the fifth game, was held to 10 points here and was outrebounded by Wes Unseld, 24-16”
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L1gaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2426,3595988

Reed surely wasn't a pillar of consistency in that series and had great help in helping his team get past the Bullets. Something Gervin couldn't boast of. Unlike Reed he couldn't afford to be inconsistent and expect to win he had to bring his A game every game for his teams to win.

Reed vs. Kareem matchup in the ECF:

Game 1:
Kareem - 35/15/5 (14/24 FG)
Reed - 24/12/4 (10/19 FG)

Game 2:
Kareem - 38/23/11 (16/25 FG)
Reed - 36/19/2 (14/23 FG)

Game 3:
Kareem - 33/31/5 (14/28 FG)
Reed - 21/10/2 (10/20 FG)

Game 4:
Kareem - 38/9/1 (14/26 FG)
Reed - 26/10/3 (13/29 FG)

Game 5:
Kareem - 27/11/2 (11/22 FG), played only 32 mints as it was a blowout after the first quarter (he had 16 pts in that quarter too)
Reed - 32/10/4 (14/22 FG)

Again Reed had the better team but was not the better player. He held his own however.

Then as for Chamberlain in the Finals 23.3, 24.1 and 4.0 against Reed while shooting 62.5% from the field. In contrast Reed averaged 23.0, 10.5 and 2.8 while shooting just 48.3% from the field. Reed was outplayed by Wilt but Wilt's team was outplayed by Reed's had this not been the case West and not Reed would have this FMVP, but hey the Knicks won the title and Reed won it fair and square.

So while Reed came out on top in the most important department (the wins column) he did not outplay his counterparts but rather had quite a few big games and quite a few that weren't which made his stats better than they actually was.


He (and Frazier) made those Knicks teams what they were. He was the true leader and captain of that team and brought it on both ends of the court not just one.

IMO Walt was still their team's best and most valuable player. When you said those teams you mean the 70 team right and not the 73 team?


It makes me wish they had 82games.com available for Gervin's day b/c his OPP production would be through the roof.

Since those sorts of stats aren't available and I'm not old enough to have seen Gervin with my own eyes I have to go on what I read. I've read those who have used his lack of size for him not being very well defensively but I personally don't agree since a guy like Michael Cooper was even smaller and was MUCH better defensively, but also it was said that he wasn't as horrendous as you may make him out to be. He was regarded as averaged to below average defensively and IMO that in itself isn't that bad.

Take into consideration the fact that Steve Nash ahead of Jason Kidd or Reggie Miller ahead of Sidney Moncrief when those players were clearly better all round players than than the "one-dimensional" players. Thing is Gervin wasn't just a one dimensional player he was one of the greatest offensive forces of all time.

It can be argued that from 77-79 he was the second best player in the league to Kareem. Can the same be said for Reed since his major case for contention here is based on peak play?

tlq123
09-25-2011, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the information,just found this post my technorati news feed section! I was searching for this since past 3 months and i am glad to see it here. Thanking you much

Stuckey#3
09-25-2011, 10:40 PM
What did Reggie Miller ever do besides lose shoot three's, lose to the knicks and get blocked by Tayshaun Prince?

Chronz
09-25-2011, 10:50 PM
Just look at the mans playoff stats. He played 28 of then vs the likes of Unseld, Wilt, KAJ, Russell and averaged 25/14 on 50% on route to a 4/5 record in playoff series against them.

tredigs
09-25-2011, 10:53 PM
I'm liking Nate Thurmond here. A solid offensive presence who is arguably the best rebounder AND defender left on the board. Him and Rick Barry were a scary combo; took 6 games from max-prime Wilt Chamberlain (head to head v Thurmond) and the legendary 67 Sixers to take out the Warriors in those finals. Thurmond was 2nd only to Wilt that year in the MVP voting as well. Nate putting up damn near 20/20 in the season Wilt had his 24/24/8.

Nate The Great stands out immensely for me over guys like Reggie and Nique.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 11:03 PM
How short is this while? I doubt you mean an entire season. At his best he was top 3 but West, Russell, Kareem, Walt, Wilt, Hondo and Dr J ensured that he wasn't #1.
It was a brief period when Russ was retired, Wilt was injured, KAJ was young, Dr.J wasnt in the league, Hondo was NOT on same level as peak Reed, Walt was similarly important and that's why you can make a case for West but overall when you consider just how dominant those 71 Knicks were, all the awards he won, he has the best case.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm liking Nate Thurmond here. A solid offensive presence who is arguably the best rebounder AND defender left on the board. Him and Rick Barry were a scary combo; took 6 games from max-prime Wilt Chamberlain (head to head v Thurmond) and the legendary 67 Sixers to take out the Warriors in those finals. Thurmond was 2nd only to Wilt that year in the MVP voting as well. Nate putting up damn near 20/20 in the season Wilt had his 24/24/8.

Nate The Great stands out immensely for me over guys like Reggie and Nique.

What about Reed/Cowens? Its hard to hold Nates zero allNba selections because of the centers he was sandwiched in between but that didn't stop Reed.

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 11:12 PM
It was a brief period when Russ was retired, Wilt was injured, KAJ was young, Dr.J wasnt in the league, Hondo was NOT on same level as peak Reed, Walt was similarly important and that's why you can make a case for West but overall when you consider just how dominant those 71 Knicks were, all the awards he won, he has the best case.

I disagree especially on West. Also what awards did he win in 71? I thought you'd be talking about 70 and not 71.

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 11:14 PM
Just look at the mans playoff stats. He played 28 of then vs the likes of Unseld, Wilt, KAJ, Russell and averaged 25/14 on 50% on route to a 4/5 record in playoff series against them.

They weren't concurrently however? They were in two separate post seasons. I was under the impression that he meant one season.

Mishmin
09-25-2011, 11:26 PM
Gotta love the one vote for Penny. Lil Penny.

bagwell368
09-26-2011, 12:06 AM
Nah looks like its down to nique it gervin, im going to help ice in that comparison

x2

Nique never helped his teams, in fact he hurt them. When I meet someone that worships him, I know right away that is someone I cannot discuss coaching, or deeper aspects of the game with.

A great talent - 1 on 1. Sadly for him he came 15 years too early, and BB is a 5 x 5 game.

bagwell368
09-26-2011, 12:14 AM
What about Reed/Cowens? Its hard to hold Nates zero allNba selections because of the centers he was sandwiched in between but that didn't stop Reed.

Thurmond played a long time, but had minimal impact. His offense was among the worst I have ever seen in the NBA.

Reed and Cowens were both short peak tough guys, both would be #4's in a more modern game. The only drawbacks on them in their time is the longevity.

I have a feeling Paul Silas will be voted much much lower then either, but he was cut out of the same cloth - just a bit shorter (2" less), and with a bit less shooting touch. But he had the longevity, and the rebounding going on. That was a player.

Swashcuff
09-26-2011, 12:21 AM
Thurmond played a long time, but had minimal impact. His offense was among the worst I have ever seen in the NBA.

Reed and Cowens were both short peak tough guys, both would be #4's in a more modern game. The only drawbacks on them in their time is the longevity.

I have a feeling Paul Silas will be voted much much lower then either, but he was cut out of the same cloth - just a bit shorter (2" less), and with a bit less shooting touch. But he had the longevity, and the rebounding going on. That was a player.

From what I understand Thurmond on offense was not the most gifted player, but he thought otherwise and hurt his team with his poor shot selection and overall attempt to be an legit force on that end. That being said I'd like to know how do you viewed him defensively and where he'd rank all time among your Cs.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 12:47 AM
x2

Nique never helped his teams, in fact he hurt them. When I meet someone that worships him, I know right away that is someone I cannot discuss coaching, or deeper aspects of the game with.

A great talent - 1 on 1. Sadly for him he came 15 years too early, and BB is a 5 x 5 game.

Yes, I'm well versed in the bagwell school Nique hate. You've made compelling arguments against him in the past, the main point I agree with is that he had 1 year where his style of play looked very conducive to winning but I don't shame him to the degree you do, he is still in my top 50 somewhere, at the least top 60.

What I don't know is your stance on Gervin, I imagine your not a fan of his lackadaisical defense or lack of all aroundness, but are you taking him to go with the lesser of 2 evils or do you truly believe he should go here? One thing I credit Ice for is how he scored within the flow. He truly made it look effortless and he didn't go out of his way to chuck, he was just very efficient.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 01:14 AM
Thurmond played a long time, but had minimal impact. His offense was among the worst I have ever seen in the NBA.
Philosophical question, do you think its better to be a player who can score on poor efficiency ala Nate or a guy who never looks to score ala Ben Wallace?



Reed and Cowens were both short peak tough guys, both would be #4's in a more modern game. The only drawbacks on them in their time is the longevity.
My feelings on Nate are simple, he had a long career but he really only had 8 to 10 quality years. All of them had 7 years where they were named to the All Star game but the other 2 made AllNBA, won an MVP and 2 rings.

Funny you mention they they would be PF today when all but Cowens began their careers as 4s to accommodate bigger players, they didn't exactly thrive in that role but you think they could today huh? Cowens seems the most likely to fit into that role but given that we are seeing an era where LMA can pass for a legit center, those guys would have been ok.



I have a feeling Paul Silas will be voted much much lower then either, but he was cut out of the same cloth - just a bit shorter (2" less), and with a bit less shooting touch. But he had the longevity, and the rebounding going on. That was a player.

If we go to 50 he shouldn't sniff this list and honestly I think your letting your celtic pride interfere here, still resentful for those lost titles because Red refused to pay market value?

Ebbs
09-26-2011, 01:19 AM
I'm looking at the polls first so I don't waste a vote and Iceman > Nique for me.

LakersIn5
09-26-2011, 07:26 AM
miller time

ShakeN'Bake
09-26-2011, 08:09 AM
Ice Ice Baby

bagwell368
09-26-2011, 09:14 AM
Yes, I'm well versed in the bagwell school Nique hate. You've made compelling arguments against him in the past, the main point I agree with is that he had 1 year where his style of play looked very conducive to winning but I don't shame him to the degree you do, he is still in my top 50 somewhere, at the least top 60.

What I don't know is your stance on Gervin, I imagine your not a fan of his lackadaisical defense or lack of all aroundness, but are you taking him to go with the lesser of 2 evils or do you truly believe he should go here? One thing I credit Ice for is how he scored within the flow. He truly made it look effortless and he didn't go out of his way to chuck, he was just very efficient.

top 60 (right near the end) on Nique? Yeah, OK, which is why I'm standing here on #40 shouting the man down.

Gervin? Yeah he was a meh defender and a scorer. But he had less talent then Nique, but somehow seemed to milk more out of it for his team. "in the flow" is compelling. his teams kept moving when he had the rock, Nique's teams took up a seat waiting for the highlight film to be shown - yet again.

I'll be happiest if Gervin is ahead of Nique, and also lower then 40, but I may not get my wish on that since I voted for him hah.

bagwell368
09-26-2011, 09:34 AM
Philosophical question, do you think its better to be a player who can score on poor efficiency ala Nate or a guy who never looks to score ala Ben Wallace?

Well... every team has room for a rebounding/defensive low post monster that scores primarily on put backs. So he doesn't look to score, but his efficiency is sky high. That's a goodness. A guy that has the first two traits and tries to do too much including high turnover numbers, poor passing skills/frequency is someone that needs to be taken to the coaches woodshed.

A guy that shoots too much and not very well on the outside, as long as he draws defensive interest and doesn't screw the flow of his offense is OK. In particular as a #7-#12 guy off the bench. But a guy that takes 25 shots per 36 min pace unless he is asked to do so is another woodshed guy, or a guy that can be put in for instant offense like the Microwave when your 2nd team has trouble scoring, at least this guy tries do so something. But if you 1st team has a well developed offense, don't by any means expose it to this sort of a guy.


My feelings on Nate are simple, he had a long career but he really only had 8 to 10 quality years. All of them had 7 years where they were named to the All Star game but the other 2 made AllNBA, won an MVP and 2 rings.

Funny you mention they they would be PF today when all but Cowens began their careers as 4s to accommodate bigger players, they didn't exactly thrive in that role but you think they could today huh? Cowens seems the most likely to fit into that role but given that we are seeing an era where LMA can pass for a legit center, those guys would have been ok.

Yeah sometimes I forget that the upswing in play/talent in Centers from 1980-2000 is over. Cowens could play today (assuming he got the coaching and competition like everyone else to stay in pace). Russell was gone, Red needed a big, Cowens was the best guy on the board for him to choose from. He made him a high post center to try and draw to slower bigger bigs out hoping Kuberski and the always in motion Cowens could rule the boards. When Red managed to get Silas he was set since Silas was a much better and tougher player then SK and Cowens could roam. On D of course Cowens was intense and would play Jabbar with everything he had, but the pounding got him early. A bit later the bigger stronger Malone came into the league and showed everyone what to do with Jabbar. Body the hell out of him.


If we go to 50 he shouldn't sniff this list and honestly I think your letting your celtic pride interfere here, still resentful for those lost titles because Red refused to pay market value?

Do you mean Cowens? Reed is the bell weather. If Reed gets in by 43, one could argue Cowens at 50 due to the peak and the rings, but he could also be argued in the 70's. Silas? He has no real shot until after ~105, and even then its probably too high, and this poll will never get there.

I'm a Celts fan sure, but I know what I am looking at, and i know my biases. In my top 12 man team all time (single peak season), I have just two career Celts, and Russell isn't one, and 3rd was greater on his first team. My team is heavy on two way players, and pass as a major option guys. The team has to gel, just have fancy offensive numbers on a plaque somewhere.

mightybosstone
09-26-2011, 12:16 PM
I went Reed for the same reasons I voted Walton for several rounds. I can't justify picking Walton over some of those guys and then turning around and taking Gervin or Wilkins over Reed or Cowens, who have similar cases to Walton. Also, how in the hell is Reggie Miller getting so many votes? I love the guy and he was an unbelievably clutch scorer, but he should not be in this discussion, IMO.