PDA

View Full Version : #10 Player In The NBA? (Volume IV)



Mile High Champ
09-24-2011, 12:03 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Kevin Durant
8) Derrick Rose
9) Deron Williams
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

MagicBucsSox
09-24-2011, 12:09 AM
Russy>rose

DoMeFavors
09-24-2011, 12:51 AM
Had to go with Westbrook he along with Durant made the WCF.

29$JerZ
09-24-2011, 12:56 AM
Voting Amare here since Pau isn't available
IMO he had a great year, showed he didn't need Nash to he effective, and led the Knicks to their first playoff apperance in years.

Avenged
09-24-2011, 02:49 AM
Tough between Amare and Melo.. Amare is more efficient though, and turned the Knicks franchise around so Ill go with him.

The_Jamal
09-24-2011, 03:44 AM
Melo pretty easily here since Pau isn't available

UPRock
09-24-2011, 03:49 AM
I'm going with Ginobili.

Mishmin
09-24-2011, 05:02 AM
This ones tougher but it has to be Amare. When he left Pheonix they fell apart, and when he joined NY, he changed the whole dynamic. He has proven his worth. Absolutely a beast, edges out Melo and Ginobli.

allSUAVE
09-24-2011, 05:10 AM
D.WILL Now i remember why i went M.I.A From this site smh

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-24-2011, 06:23 AM
manu>amare>melo

KnicksorBust
09-24-2011, 07:46 AM
Manu has the most complete skill set of anyone on the list and is coming off a great season.

jimm120
09-24-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm not gonna vote for any knick.

After seeing him improve his skillset and still get out voted by someone whi didnt play 1/4 of the season, whi scored 14 ppg on 35% shooting upong joining a new team, and was beung talked about as if not improving his utah team as much as expected while still there.


Notvoting for any knick. I'll let them do all the work in the court next season.

Manu doean't deserve to be so high. He was an mvp candidate but he wasnt that good of a player. Hence why rose only got up to # 8.

But hey, he wa considered, along with others. I'll vote for him!

Chill_Will_24
09-24-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm not gonna vote for any knick.

After seeing him improve his skillset and still get out voted by someone whi didnt play 1/4 of the season, whi scored 14 ppg on 35% shooting upong joining a new team, and was beung talked about as if not improving his utah team as much as expected while still there.


Notvoting for any knick. I'll let them do all the work in the court next season.

Manu doean't deserve to be so high. He was an mvp candidate but he wasnt that good of a player. Hence why rose only got up to # 8.

But hey, he wa considered, along with others. I'll vote for him!

:laugh2:

knicksfan42
09-24-2011, 09:02 AM
No way Amare is better than Melo. Rebounding: Amare ranks 44th in TRR (Total Rebounding Rate) amongst players who have played in at least 40 games and averaged at least 25 minutes a game. Amare's 58th if its players who play at least 20 mpg. 73rd if its players who play at least 15 mpg.

People were giving Melo **** for his defensive play, Amare isn't 1/10 the defensive player Melo is. Amare shouldn't even be counted as a player on defense, it's always a 5 on 4 when he's on the court. Whoever Amare is defending that night is either getting a career high or a season high, doesn't matter who its is.

nycericanguy
09-24-2011, 09:04 AM
Manu is better than Melo now?...hmm...

SteBO
09-24-2011, 09:15 AM
I'll go carmelo here.

JordansBulls
09-24-2011, 09:17 AM
Russy>rose

Maybe better than Jalen Rose. But not on D.Rose's level.

SteBO
09-24-2011, 09:20 AM
Maybe better than Jalen Rose. But not on D.Rose's level.
:laugh2:

NBA-GMaster
09-24-2011, 09:26 AM
it should be Melo.. could you extend it, up to top 15 or top 20..

KnicksorBust
09-24-2011, 09:26 AM
Maybe better than Jalen Rose. But not on D.Rose's level.

:laugh:

pebloemer
09-24-2011, 09:45 AM
I have Melo here.

juno10
09-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Maybe better than Jalen Rose. But not on D.Rose's level.

you're right he's not on roses level, he's above it:eyebrow:

juno10
09-24-2011, 10:08 AM
amare or melo can't go wrong here imo

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 10:26 AM
Maybe better than Jalen Rose. But not on D.Rose's level.

Some posters are such a cowards they say stuff like that then leaves the thread for good just attempting to spew their ignorant agenda.... :pity:

back on topic since Pau isn't available I got Carmelo here.

Statistically the likes of Manu, Russ, Amar'e, Pierce, Blake, LA, Love, Pau, KG and maybe a couple others have strong cases against Melo and some of them are certainly better all round players Melo is still the best/most consistent scorer of the bunch a top 5 rebounder at his position, sure one of the best closers in the game and improved on his range as last season progressed.

I'll go Melo here but it isn't an easy choice and I'm quite certain that someone could make a solid case for Manu, Westbrook or Amar'e.

THE GIPPER
09-24-2011, 10:29 AM
Id like to see manu carry the load on offensive for 82 games plus playoffs the way amare, melo and westbrook can. There is no reason for anyone to be voting manu over those 3 players.

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 10:33 AM
Id like to see manu carry the load on offensive for 82 games plus playoffs the way amare, melo and westbrook can. There is no reason for anyone to be voting manu over those 3 players.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

This is a point many who fall in love with Manu always overlook. He has ALWAYS benefited from a great team, a great coach and a great system. Let's see how he plays on a team like the Cavs and then see how great he really is. I am 100% certain that his production will take a serious hit.

KnicksorBust
09-24-2011, 10:51 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

This is a point many who fall in love with Manu always overlook. He has ALWAYS benefited from a great team, a great coach and a great system. Let's see how he plays on a team like the Cavs and then see how great he really is. I am 100% certain that his production will take a serious hit.

Why? Maybe someone like Trevor Ariza can't handle being a #1 but someone of Manu's talent would handle it just fine. Look at what he did this season with a past his prime Duncan and a above average PG. HE led them to the #1 seed this year. Look at Scottie Pippen without MJ. His production was just as effecient and slightly improved with more opportunities.

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 10:58 AM
Why? Maybe someone like Trevor Ariza can't handle being a #1 but someone of Manu's talent would handle it just fine. Look at what he did this season with a past his prime Duncan and a above average PG. HE led them to the #1 seed this year. Look at Scottie Pippen without MJ. His production was just as effecient and slightly improved with more opportunities.

Scottie for his entire career was a starter career. Scottie also played 30 mins or more for all but two seasons in his career. Manu on the other hand has only played more than 30 once.

Also Manu was also in the very same system under the very same head coach. I'll also argue that he did not lead the Spurs. Duncan did. It was Duncan's D, leadership and intangibles that was the fuel behind that San Antonio team as he was the only real big man on that entire team.

Do you really think if you take out all the positives from Manu's support and place him somewhere where he is asked to carry the offensive burden and play close to 40 mins a game that he will really be such a productive player? I think not. He may score and rebound a bit more but I really don't see how he'd be a better clear cut #1 than Pau, Amar'e, Melo, Pierce, Lamarcus Aldridge etc

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2011, 11:00 AM
Id like to see manu carry the load on offensive for 82 games plus playoffs the way amare, melo and westbrook can. There is no reason for anyone to be voting manu over those 3 players.

this is another case of advanced stats clouding ppl's judgement and people putting too much stock into it. Manu is clearly not as good as those players.

theheatles
09-24-2011, 11:00 AM
if you swap d will and d rose, this is my exact top 10

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 11:07 AM
this is another case of advanced stats clouding ppl's judgement and people putting too much stock into it. Manu is clearly not as good as those players.

I am a HUGE advocate for advanced stats myself but even I don't suscribe to the hype Manu gets from them. I know a guy who has knowledge that rivals that of Chronz and he ranked Manu as his 4th best SG of all time. I mean seriously the man has only played more than 30 mins a game twice in his career.

I also heard another smart basketball mind say that Manu is better than both Kobe and Wade (more so Kobe) since he has come into the league because of where he ranks in Simple Rating (Roland Rating), RAPM and WS/48. I mean seriously anyone who watches the game for 5 minutes knows that Manu is not better than Kobe or Wade.

I personally don't get it and think Manu is one of the most if not the most overrated players of all time.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2011, 11:13 AM
I am a HUGE advocate for advanced stats myself but even I don't suscribe to the hype Manu gets from them. I know a guy who has knowledge that rivals that of Chronz and he ranked Manu as his 4th best SG of all time. I mean seriously the man has only played more than 30 mins a game twice in his career.

I also heard another smart basketball mind say that Manu is better than both Kobe and Wade (more so Kobe) since he has come into the league because of where he ranks in Simple Rating (Roland Rating), RAPM and WS/48. I mean seriously anyone who watches the game for 5 minutes knows that Manu is not better than Kobe or Wade.

I personally don't get it and think Manu is one of the most if not the most overrated players of all time.
yea that's just ridiculous. I'm a user of advanced stats as well but there'ss times where they're unnecessary. some people need to lay off the stats and realize that they aren't everything. that's basically saying that people don't need to watch one second of basketball to know who the best player(s) is/are, and they could do it by looking at a piece of paper or website with #s on it...

kdspurman
09-24-2011, 11:21 AM
I vote Melo here. But to the folks talking about Manu carrying the load? I personally think if he wasn't on such a talented team, his numbers would be way up. The guy was a great ball player in Argentina before he came. I think if you take Duncan or Parker off or both, he definitely DOES carry the load. I would think all his numbers go up.

I don't see how he gets called overrated. He's virtually the same player as D. Wade but with less explosiveness, and he's a better shooter/play maker. Some folks may call me crazy but that's my opinion. Wade's got the advantage defensively, which is why overall he's got the edge.

There's a reason that since 07 Manu has been hurt EVERY playoffs and they haven't won or seriously contended in the playoffs. He was arguably the finals MVP of 05, he was huge in 07. He's a BIG part of the teams success. Look at the difference he made in the Memphis series. If he doesn't miss game 1, that series likely goes 7 in SA and who knows what happens.

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 11:27 AM
I vote Melo here. But to the folks talking about Manu carrying the load? I personally think if he wasn't on such a talented team, his numbers would be way up. The guy was a great ball player in Argentina before he came. I think if you take Duncan or Parker off or both, he definitely DOES carry the load. I would think all his numbers go up.

I don't see how he gets called overrated. He's virtually the same player as D. Wade but with less explosiveness, and he's a better shooter/play maker. Some folks may call me crazy but that's my opinion. Wade's got the advantage defensively, which is why overall he's got the edge.

There's a reason that since 07 Manu has been hurt EVERY playoffs and they haven't won or seriously contended in the playoffs. He was arguably the finals MVP of 05, he was huge in 07. He's a BIG part of the teams success. Look at the difference he made in the Memphis series. If he doesn't miss game 1, that series likely goes 7 in SA and who knows what happens.

Ironic isn't it.

TheNumber37
09-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Number 10 is too low for Carmelo, he is going to have an MVP type year if the season happens. Don't worry Melo, you'll show him.

Cano4prez
09-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Pau

SteBO
09-24-2011, 12:11 PM
I vote Melo here. But to the folks talking about Manu carrying the load? I personally think if he wasn't on such a talented team, his numbers would be way up. The guy was a great ball player in Argentina before he came. I think if you take Duncan or Parker off or both, he definitely DOES carry the load. I would think all his numbers go up.

I don't see how he gets called overrated. He's virtually the same player as D. Wade but with less explosiveness, and he's a better shooter/play maker. Some folks may call me crazy but that's my opinion. Wade's got the advantage defensively, which is why overall he's got the edge.

There's a reason that since 07 Manu has been hurt EVERY playoffs and they haven't won or seriously contended in the playoffs. He was arguably the finals MVP of 05, he was huge in 07. He's a BIG part of the teams success. Look at the difference he made in the Memphis series. If he doesn't miss game 1, that series likely goes 7 in SA and who knows what happens.
I don't think you're crazy at all. As far as playing style, Manu and Wade are kinda similar. It's a shame Manu has been injury prone for as long as he has, because I think he could've gotten better had that not been the case.

kdspurman
09-24-2011, 12:53 PM
I don't think you're crazy at all. As far as playing style, Manu and Wade are kinda similar. It's a shame Manu has been injury prone for as long as he has, because I think he could've gotten better had that not been the case.

Yea, that's exactly what I meant. I didn't want anyone to take that the wrong way lol... But definitely, I mean his style of play, plus extra games representing Argentina, usually means there's a high chance of injury. What a shame last year his only significant injury of the season came in the last game of the season when he shouldn't have even played.. :confused:

But his resume is very impressive, I think he get's overlooked a lot, but the guy is the ultimate competitor.

JasonJohnHorn
09-24-2011, 01:01 PM
Hmm.... There are so many people (like Gasol the elder) that I would take over Melo in a heart beat. And, I think I may even take Westbrook over Melo, but Amare is getting my vote. He help turn NY around, and helped them turn things around after that horrendous losing streak NY went on after picking up Melo, not to mention those deep playoff runs in Phoenix. If I had to build around Melo or Amare, I'd take Amare in a heart beat, though I'd try to toughen him up a bit and light a fire under his @$$ to make him start rebounding like he should.

But there are people not on this list that I would vote for over all five of these options.

lakersiznumber1
09-24-2011, 01:40 PM
this thread should be called who do u like best lol how is kobe not number 1 again because he was injuried last season okayyyyyyyy and y is bynum even on the list lol the list should b
1 kobe
2 wade
3 james
4 howard
5 dirk
6 durant
7 melo
8 paul
9 d will
10 gasol:clap:

Chronz
09-24-2011, 01:59 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

This is a point many who fall in love with Manu always overlook. He has ALWAYS benefited from a great team, a great coach and a great system. Let's see how he plays on a team like the Cavs and then see how great he really is. I am 100% certain that his production will take a serious hit.
What point?

Manu has the skillset to thrive in any system so how can you be so certain of something with so little evidence? Its not as if the Spurs have ran the same O throughout his career. Besides why wouldn't this hold true for anyone else, lets put Bron in the flex, and see how great he is. His production would dip (IMO) but how does that matter when his (elite) team is winning with his production where its at.

Mishmin
09-24-2011, 02:06 PM
guess I'm outnumbered on this one

Chronz
09-24-2011, 02:10 PM
this is another case of advanced stats clouding ppl's judgement and people putting too much stock into it. Manu is clearly not as good as those players.

More like a case of basic stats clouding yours, I don't see these clearly superior players. Manu has just as good a case as anyone since we can't vote for Pau. He was the best player on the team with the most wins in his conference, its fair to say he has more than advanced stats in his favor.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2011, 02:18 PM
More like a case of basic stats clouding yours, I don't see these clearly superior players. Manu has just as good a case as anyone since we can't vote for Pau. He was the best player on the team with the most wins in his conference, its fair to say he has more than advanced stats in his favor.

no, when i argue i hardly use basic stats. Manu clearly has a ton of skill and is very talented, but he doesn't have the durability and stamina that the other guys have and that limits him from being a top player. Like someone said before he has only averaged >30 MPG once in his career, he's also been pretty injury prone lately. I wouldn't trust my #1 player with a big burden if he couldn't play around over 35 mins.

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 02:22 PM
What point?

Manu has the skillset to thrive in any system so how can you be so certain of something with so little evidence? Its not as if the Spurs have ran the same O throughout his career. Besides why wouldn't this hold true for anyone else, lets put Bron in the flex, and see how great he is. His production would dip (IMO) but how does that matter when his (elite) team is winning with his production where its at.

Do you think Manu would rank #2 in WS/48 all time among SGs and be as efficient a scorer had he played a different role in a different system where he was asked to be carry his team's offensive burden and improve their win total?

Also KG has the skill set to thrive in any system but put him in Phoenix do you think he'll make them an elite defensive team?

Chronz from a basic common sense POV I don't see how anyone can accurately come to a conclusion that a player can thrive in a different system when it has been proven that their are many players who are more valuable as a 2nd/3rd option than a first with added pressure and attention.

Lastly where do you have him all time on your SG ranking?

Chronz
09-24-2011, 02:23 PM
Melo and Amare ensure your team struggles defensively and neither strike me as big game players to the degree Manu is. I would definitely take several players ahead of Manu in terms of regular season worth because hes such an injury risk with his playing style and low MPG threshold.

But when your asking me to rate the individual, I picture the player healthy and able. Manu has the skills, the stats but most importantly the impact.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2011, 02:28 PM
Melo and Amare ensure your team struggles defensively and neither strike me as big game players to the degree Manu is. I would definitely take several players ahead of Manu in terms of regular season worth because hes such an injury risk with his playing style and low MPG threshold.

But when your asking me to rate the individual, I picture the player healthy and able. Manu has the skills, the stats but most importantly the impact.

I'd agree on that point, but I think their offensive impact is so much greater. The way I look at these, is who would I pick as my franchise player if we were building a franchise. Out of these options, I'd take Melo.

Chronz
09-24-2011, 02:43 PM
no, when i argue i hardly use basic stats. Manu clearly has a ton of skill and is very talented, but he doesn't have the durability and stamina that the other guys have and that limits him from being a top player. Like someone said before he has only averaged >30 MPG once in his career, he's also been pretty injury prone lately. I wouldn't trust my #1 player with a big burden if he couldn't play around over 35 mins.
Both matter but it sounds to me like your using a basic stat (mpg) as the reason to underrate him now. Tell me are we basing this list off the ability to play the game or their ability to stay healthy?

So you wouldn't take him to start your franchise, would you take him to win you a playoff game? To me thats the most important barometer and I can't take 2 defensive liabilities who aren't in the same league as him as a winner ahead of him, particularly when hes so devastatingly efficient as a scorer, shooter and playmaker.

I really wish Denver had landed Manu, that way he wouldn't be punished for spending his career on title contenders and sacrificing fame for the betterment of the team. I mean the guy comes off the bench. Do you have any idea how rare it is to find a guy who can be equally effective in either role? No matter the role or who's on the floor, Manu proves up to the challenge, yet you want to fault him because his coach has a strategic philosophy that wins titles?

Manu playing low minutes isn't entirely his fault, its a byproduct of his international commitment and coaching. I won't deny that it helps him stay healthy but your joking if you think he doesn't improve as a player by becoming a starter. More minutes+starting = better production.

NYKNYGNYY
09-24-2011, 02:47 PM
melos always been in the top ten now that hes a knick its debatable???

Kobes a Killer
09-24-2011, 02:48 PM
Pau

knickerbockerny
09-24-2011, 02:53 PM
Deron Williams is not a freaking top 10 player anymore, what has he done lately! These polls are utter ridiculous!! Dwight Howard before Kobe Bryant!!!

knickerbockerny
09-24-2011, 02:55 PM
The same Dwight Howard that could not lead his team out the first round is better than Kobe!!!!

Chris Paul above Dirk Nowitzki?????

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 02:57 PM
melos always been in the top ten now that hes a knick its debatable???

Where was Rose in years prior? How many titles did Dirk win in years prior? How many 20 and 15 seasons had Dwight Howard have in years prior?


Deron Williams is not a freaking top 10 player anymore, what has he done lately! These polls are utter ridiculous!! Dwight Howard before Kobe Bryant!!!

Have the first 20 and 10 season of his career something only 8 players in NBA history have ever been able to accomplish :shrug:

Chronz
09-24-2011, 02:57 PM
Do you think Manu would rank #2 in WS/48 all time among SGs and be as efficient a scorer had he played a different role in a different system where he was asked to be carry his team's offensive burden and improve their win total?
He already does that, only in 30 minute bursts. I get that his WS/48 would drop but he would see gains elsewhere, enough that the public perception of his ability increases.



Also KG has the skill set to thrive in any system but put him in Phoenix do you think he'll make them an elite defensive team?I'm not following you but to answer your Q, I think he could but not the same kind of turnaround he had in Boston. KG+Dudley/Hill+Gortat is a great start.



Chronz from a basic common sense POV I don't see how anyone can accurately come to a conclusion that a player can thrive in a different system when it has been proven that their are many players who are more valuable as a 2nd/3rd option than a first with added pressure and attention.
Because Manu doesn't strike me as one of those players.



Lastly where do you have him all time on your SG ranking?
Definitely higher than you that's for sure. Hes one of the most underrated SG ever, amongst old and young fans alike.

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 02:59 PM
The same Dwight Howard that could not lead his team out the first round is better than Kobe!!!!

Who is the 2nd best player on Dwight's team?

Now who is the 4th best player on Kobe's team? Tell me is the 2nd best player on Dwight's team better than the 4th best on Kobe's?

This is a TEAM sport. Dwight is only one man.


Chris Paul above Dirk Nowitzki?????

What's wrong with that? CP3 is a better 2 way and all round player than Dirk. I see nothing wrong there.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2011, 03:02 PM
Both matter but it sounds to me like your using a basic stat (mpg) as the reason to underrate him now. Tell me are we basing this list off the ability to play the game or their ability to stay healthy?
both. I don't think can flat out take over a game like Melo and Amar'e can. And u have to account for MPG if we're talking individuals. I want a guy that can play as much mins as possible.


So you wouldn't take him to start your franchise, would you take him to win you a playoff game? To me thats the most important barometer and I can't take 2 defensive liabilities who aren't in the same league as him as a winner ahead of him, particularly when hes so devastatingly efficient as a scorer, shooter and playmaker.
yea I'd take him in the playoffs over both, but if we were doing a draft and the choice was between those 3, he'd probably be the last of the 3 if i ranked them. i'm taking everything into account not just playoffs


I really wish Denver had landed Manu, that way he wouldn't be punished for spending his career on title contenders and sacrificing fame for the betterment of the team. I mean the guy comes off the bench. Do you have any idea how rare it is to find a guy who can be equally effective in either role? No matter the role or who's on the floor, Manu proves up to the challenge, yet you want to fault him because his coach has a strategic philosophy that wins titles?
i'm not faulting him, it's just been proven that Manu isn't able to play a crapload of minutes and i don't want to build around a guy that isn't able to play as much minutes as possible. it's not about him coming off the bench or not.

Manu playing low minutes isn't entirely his fault, its a byproduct of his international commitment and coaching. I won't deny that it helps him stay healthy but your joking if you think he doesn't improve as a player by becoming a starter. More minutes+starting = better production.
I do think he'd be IF he played more minutes. I just don't think he has the durability to be a near 40 MPG guy and carry a big burden. I also don't think he can lead an offense as the clear cut #1 option with most of the defense's attention drawn to him

Manu is definitely more versatile than both of them, and if i was looking for a piece to add to my team, i'd take him over Melo and Amar'e. but when I'm building a team, I want my #1 guy to be an explosive scorer. Manu just isn't that.

Iggz53
09-24-2011, 03:03 PM
Should be Manu but Melo will win

Swashcuff
09-24-2011, 03:04 PM
He already does that, only in 30 minute bursts. I get that his WS/48 would drop but he would see gains elsewhere, enough that the public perception of his ability increases.

What about his efficiency? Also do you think we'd see gains in his advanced metrics?


I'm not following you but to answer your Q, I think he could but not the same kind of turnaround he had in Boston. KG+Dudley/Hill+Gortat is a great start.

I'm just saying that it having a solid skill set and all round game isn't a guarentee to turn around any and every team.


Because Manu doesn't strike me as one of those players.

Pau doesn't strike me as one either but many believe he found his niche in LA and his production will agree to that.


Definitely higher than you that's for sure. Hes one of the most underrated SG ever, amongst old and young fans alike.

I know you're not a big Reggie fan so I'd ask do you have him ahead of Reggie, Allen, Moncrief or Dumars?

THE GIPPER
09-24-2011, 03:51 PM
The same Dwight Howard that could not lead his team out the first round is better than Kobe!!!!

Chris Paul above Dirk Nowitzki?????

did you watch basketball last season?

Avenged
09-24-2011, 04:44 PM
The same Dwight Howard that could not lead his team out the first round is better than Kobe!!!!

Chris Paul above Dirk Nowitzki?????

Well, take a look at Dwight's dominant playoff #'s, and then take a look at his teammates numbers.

A PER of 26, TS% of 67, along w/ 27 points and 15 rebounds.

JordansBulls
09-24-2011, 05:00 PM
you're right he's not on roses level, he's above it:eyebrow:

Did he lead a team to the best record in the league or finish top 3-5 in MVP voting or win Finals mvp as the hands down best on his team?
He has another allstar on his team and still only won 55 games and went 7 games against an 8th seed.

29$JerZ
09-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Sadly I expected Melo to be voted number 10 :sigh:

naps
09-24-2011, 09:01 PM
I went Melo here. But it would hurt to see Amare over Pau.

Shamar81
09-24-2011, 11:13 PM
I like the list however I feel Kobe is way to low. Deron Williams should be number 10 not 9. Manu shouldn't make the top ten at all. Maybe Top 12 if anything. I voted Melo here and its not close at all. Westbook is not better than Melo at all. And finally how is the MVP of the league number 8? We got the right players in the top ten just need to tweek the order just aliitle bit. Remember guys stats doesnt always tell the full story of a players talents and skills.

mdm692
09-24-2011, 11:16 PM
This ones tougher but it has to be Amare. When he left Pheonix they fell apart, and when he joined NY, he changed the whole dynamic. He has proven his worth. Absolutely a beast, edges out Melo and Ginobli.

although amare left a huge hole to fill the main reason phoenix fell apart was the front office nervous breakdown causing them to overload the wing and leave the pf position empty.

Nyc4You
09-25-2011, 01:05 AM
Did he lead a team to the best record in the league or finish top 3-5 in MVP voting or win Finals mvp as the hands down best on his team?
He has another allstar on his team and still only won 55 games and went 7 games against an 8th seed.

That same 8th seed took out the 1st seed. That same 8th seed had the second best pf in the playoffs. that same 8th seed was deep in almost every position. it was just a matter of time.... oh yeah, that 8th seed was also missing their star player.:facepalm:

juno10
09-25-2011, 10:22 AM
That same 8th seed took out the 1st seed. That same 8th seed had the second best pf in the playoffs. that same 8th seed was deep in almost every position. it was just a matter of time.... oh yeah, that 8th seed was also missing their star player.:facepalm:

JB does;t think like this he's either a highly sophisticated robot or just trolling everyone.

JordansBulls
09-25-2011, 10:26 AM
That same 8th seed took out the 1st seed. That same 8th seed had the second best pf in the playoffs. that same 8th seed was deep in almost every position. it was just a matter of time.... oh yeah, that 8th seed was also missing their star player.:facepalm:

an 8th seed is an 8th seed no matter who they are.

ghettosean
09-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Really Andrew Bynum and Manu Ginobilli are there but Blake Griffin and Kevin Love aren't???

KnicksorBust
09-25-2011, 04:11 PM
Manu vs. Amar'e better be a closer vote.

Chacarron
09-25-2011, 04:13 PM
Really Andrew Bynum and Manu Ginobilli are there but Blake Griffin and Kevin Love aren't???

1) It's the voting system.

2) Manu is better than both. Gasol is also better than both, who is next in line at PF after Amare is voted.

ManningToTyree
09-25-2011, 05:17 PM
Melo again

29$JerZ
09-25-2011, 05:21 PM
Manu vs. Amar'e better be a closer vote.

Tell that to every Knick poster :pity:

Chronz
09-25-2011, 05:52 PM
both. I don't think can flat out take over a game like Melo and Amar'e can. And u have to account for MPG if we're talking individuals. I want a guy that can play as much mins as possible.
How do you define take over a game because by my definition throughout their careers its how Manu has been the superior player( vs Melo). Manu doesn't take over by chucking, he takes over by making smart reads and hitting timely shots.

Im guessing yours is the other definition. Well if your praising Melo for being the guy to just heat up and start draining shots then you have to penalize him for all the times he shoots his teams out, which given his modest efficiency happens much more frequently than Manu. Basically Melo is like a 20 win 15 losses kind of player while Manu is 15 and 6 kind of guy. He won't win you as many games but he won't lose you as many as he wins. To me those guys are much easier to both win with and build around.



yea I'd take him in the playoffs over both, but if we were doing a draft and the choice was between those 3, he'd probably be the last of the 3 if i ranked them. i'm taking everything into account not just playoffs
Not sure why you would weigh their ability to stay healthy over Manus ability to win.



i'm not faulting him, it's just been proven that Manu isn't able to play a crapload of minutes and i don't want to build around a guy that isn't able to play as much minutes as possible. it's not about him coming off the bench or not.
Even if he wins you the most important games? And I thought you were asking us to vote for the superior player, not the guy we would build around.
In any case, I disagree completely, in his youth he could have played much more minutes it wasnt his role. That Manu plays more minutes now at an advanced age on such an elite team proves he could have handled more in his athletic prime. He can't handle much more anymore so he never tops out at 40MPG at any point in his career, but neither did Melo, and so what hes doing more to help his team win with his PT.



I do think he'd be IF he played more minutes. I just don't think he has the durability to be a near 40 MPG guy and carry a big burden. I also don't think he can lead an offense as the clear cut #1 option with most of the defense's attention drawn to him
OK but can you tell me why he would need to be in order to be the superior player? I don't think Melo is the kind of guy who can impact the game on pure efficiency and based on the rarity I doubt Melo could play just as effective off the bench in Manus role.



Manu is definitely more versatile than both of them, and if i was looking for a piece to add to my team, i'd take him over Melo and Amar'e. but when I'm building a team, I want my #1 guy to be an explosive scorer. Manu just isn't that.
That's certainly your prerogative, but I would rather take the guy who's easier to build with, any team centered around a single players scoring ability better have a damn efficient scorer who makes others better, Melo just isn't that guy so I take the winner hands down, even if its a risk he stays healthy, durability matters, I just don't value it above actual ability unless the guy is missing seasons left and right.

Vidball
09-25-2011, 07:09 PM
Pau

Avenged
09-25-2011, 07:32 PM
Melo is running away with this, but Amare and Manu are close? How does that make sense when Amare put up a better season.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 07:37 PM
What I want to know is how you guys have come to the conclusion that Melo is a player of greater intangible worth than a 3x champ who plays better defense and makes others better. If anything the #s understate his worth. Its not his fault he sacrificed individual recognition for the betterment of a championship caliber team. Manu could wander about for 5 extra minutes and it wouldn't make a difference in my decision.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 07:50 PM
What about his efficiency? Also do you think we'd see gains in his advanced metrics?
The point Im trying to make is that given reasonable slippage of any stat you want to focus on, a few extra mpg wouldn't outweigh what I value in Manu, his superiority over Melo isn't one based on stats because quite frankly Melo should be crushing him, that its even up for debate statistically (which it is) makes choosing the champ who makes others better and can actually play defense such an easy choice.

But if you want my honest opinion, I would like to know how extreme the change of load, role or teammates.



I'm just saying that it having a solid skill set and all round game isn't a guarentee to turn around any and every team.
Then you missed my point entirely, I never said anything about the team, just the individual.



Pau doesn't strike me as one either but many believe he found his niche in LA and his production will agree to that.
LOL you mean the guy I wish I could vote here now? I don't see how this comparison helps your point.



I know you're not a big Reggie fan so I'd ask do you have him ahead of Reggie, Allen, Moncrief or Dumars?
Yes to all but Moncrief

Swashcuff
09-25-2011, 08:20 PM
The point Im trying to make is that given reasonable slippage of any stat you want to focus on, a few extra mpg wouldn't outweigh what I value in Manu, his superiority over Melo isn't one based on stats because quite frankly Melo should be crushing him, that its even up for debate statistically (which it is) makes choosing the champ who makes others better and can actually play defense such an easy choice.

But if you want my honest opinion, I would like to know how extreme the change of load, role or teammates.

Replace Gordon with Manu in LAC are you guys a playoff team?


Then you missed my point entirely, I never said anything about the team, just the individual.

Well you did say you wouldn't expect KG to have the kind of turnaround he had in Boston.


LOL you mean the guy I wish I could vote here now? I don't see how this comparison helps your point.

Pau was never really considered top 10 (partly because TD and KG were still in their prime or at least on the decline) prior to playing with the Lakers. Though he had good enough success (given his supporting cast in the West) in Memphis. He produced at a higher rate (noticeable hike in his WS and ORTG) when he went to LA and really pushed them over the top.

My point is though Pau also doesn't strike me as one of those players, being a second option on a quality team has bolstered his claim for a top 10 player. IMO had Manu been asked to lead a team and not "sacrifice" his playing time on a already great team we may not see his production in certain departments be viewed so highly. You said earlier that his other aspects would make up for where he may lack in those regards and I'm saying IMO it may not.

In his career Manu has played 40 minutes or more in game 18 times (inclusive of PS & RS), in 7 of those games he had a game score of 20+. Last season alone Melo had 11 games of 40 or more minutes played in those games he featured a game score of 20+ on 9 occasions (more in one season than Manu in his whole career).

This is something in which I am confident if done for Manu vs other great 1st options we'll see similar results where they play much better than Manu when actually leading the team in minutes played. While Manu may have them beat in in under 30 minutes played production.

I know its arbitrary and I know it's a small sample and OF COURSE it doesn't take intangible worth into consideration AND OF COURSE Manu is still better defensively. However my point is to say give Manu an increased work load and more minutes and he'd produce at the same rate is a bit inaccurate.

Manu is the perfect example of a player who is at his best in spurts. He is at his very best when he isn't relied on to do the brunt of the work but to come in and give his everything on both ends of the floor for no more than 6-10 minutes at a time.


Yes to all but Moncrief

I'll respectfully disagree. I have him only ahead of Dumars.

Hustlenomics
09-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Melo Clearly, no debating

Evolution23
09-25-2011, 09:18 PM
Anybody but Pau Gasoft

ewmania
09-25-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm not gonna vote for any knick.

After seeing him improve his skillset and still get out voted by someone whi didnt play 1/4 of the season, whi scored 14 ppg on 35% shooting upong joining a new team, and was beung talked about as if not improving his utah team as much as expected while still there.


Notvoting for any knick. I'll let them do all the work in the court next season.

Manu doean't deserve to be so high. He was an mvp candidate but he wasnt that good of a player. Hence why rose only got up to # 8.

But hey, he wa considered, along with others. I'll vote for him!

i admire your hatred for a knick it shows true compassion for your team

but i also frown upon your true love for basketball, because i hate chicago but im a basketball fan so of course i voted for rose

Stuckey#3
09-25-2011, 10:59 PM
Why are there only five players to choose from? You should take nominations rather than just throw random players up. I can think of 5-10 players that are better than Manu and Bynum easily.

Stuckey#3
09-25-2011, 11:00 PM
I went with Amare here.

THE GIPPER
09-25-2011, 11:30 PM
What I want to know is how you guys have come to the conclusion that Melo is a player of greater intangible worth than a 3x champ who plays better defense and makes others better. If anything the #s understate his worth. Its not his fault he sacrificed individual recognition for the betterment of a championship caliber team. Manu could wander about for 5 extra minutes and it wouldn't make a difference in my decision.

I dont care if manu is more efficient or has 3 championships it doesnt make him better than carmelo. He simply cannot carry the load offensively the way melo can for 82 games plus playoffs. Stop looking at only stats and use some common sense.

Chronz
09-25-2011, 11:56 PM
Replace Gordon with Manu in LAC are you guys a playoff team?

No, but thats not really what I was asking for, I meant with regards to his usage rate, what kind of possessional load is so important to you. To avoid complicating things I was hoping you'd stick to his own team only without whatever players your holding against him for playing alongside of.



Well you did say you wouldn't expect KG to have the kind of turnaround he had in Boston.

LOL because you asked me a question that was suppose to pertain to my original point. Im not seeing the connection.



Pau was never really considered top 10 (partly because TD and KG were still in their prime or at least on the decline) prior to playing with the Lakers. Though he had good enough success (given his supporting cast in the West) in Memphis. He produced at a higher rate (noticeable hike in his WS and ORTG) when he went to LA and really pushed them over the top.

Yea in other words he performed at the rate we would expect from a great player entering his prime, in replacing quantity with quality, given his change in usage his efficiency increased in accordance to the laws of skill curves, if exceeding it you wouldn't say he suffered a tremendous drop all around. Again, hes not someone who aids your point.



My point is though Pau also doesn't strike me as one of those players, being a second option on a quality team has bolstered his claim for a top 10 player.
That's because he went from Memphis to LA, not because of some career altering shift in production. Coincidentally I forgot to mention Pau used to play in a similar role to Manu with regards to their coaches limiting their minutes.



IMO had Manu been asked to lead a team and not "sacrifice" his playing time on a already great team we may not see his production in certain departments be viewed so highly.
That's alot more specific, before you were saying with great confidence that his stats would suffer immensely.



You said earlier that his other aspects would make up for where he may lack in those regards and I'm saying IMO it may not.
I know I just fail to see the logic.



In his career Manu has played 40 minutes or more in game 18 times (inclusive of PS & RS), in 7 of those games he had a game score of 20+. Last season alone Melo had 11 games of 40 or more minutes played in those games he featured a game score of 20+ on 9 occasions (more in one season than Manu in his whole career).
This is something in which I am confident if done for Manu vs other great 1st options we'll see similar results where they play much better than Manu when actually leading the team in minutes played. While Manu may have them beat in in under 30 minutes played production.
I assume he would have to if he has a higher PER given the relationship with the stat then again he may not given the high pace Melos teams play with, but I would be interested in knowing the exact figures and level of comp given the small sample. Anyways this minor data set wouldn't change my opinion, like I've said before.



I know its arbitrary and I know it's a small sample and OF COURSE it doesn't take intangible worth into consideration AND OF COURSE Manu is still better defensively.
Don't forget it too suffers the drawback of appeasing to chuckers only without the advantage of accounting for pace.



However my point is to say give Manu an increased work load and more minutes and he'd produce at the same rate is a bit inaccurate.

No offense but given your comparisons and limited insight, Im not convinced. Im more inclined to follow the theories of Dean O/Pelton when it comes to these matters, also given what I remember seeing about Manu stats/splits (which I can post once I'm on an actual cpu), and the general rule that starting+ more mpg is better for any player.



Manu is the perfect example of a player who is at his best in spurts. He is at his very best when he isn't relied on to do the brunt of the work but to come in and give his everything on both ends of the floor for no more than 6-10 minutes at a time.

Even if I were to agree with you its not such a paradigm shift that I take Melo. Atleast not based on this faulty premise.



I'll respectfully disagree. I have him only ahead of Dumars.
Wait, you have Reggie ahead of Dumars? Not that its wrong but most wouldn't. At the other site which shall not be named, they had a thread about Dumars and someone essentially called him a rich mans Manu.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 12:02 AM
I dont care if manu is more efficient or has 3 championships it doesnt make him better than carmelo. He simply cannot carry the load offensively the way melo can for 82 games plus playoffs. Stop looking at only stats and use some common sense.

Here's the thing, when you tell me to ignore the stats and focus on things that don't show up in the box score Manu crushes him even more. So what exactly is the point?

Your point about durability is taken, Ive already admitted I would rather have those guys for a full season, but I take this question to ask which player give my team the best chance to win an important game and quite frankly if Manu is good to go, hes my choice and that's common sense taking. Then again if you ignore the stats, ignore the championships, the intangible and defensive superiority, then yeah I can see how you would think otherwise.

Ebbs
09-26-2011, 12:12 AM
I went with Melo but I actually considered westy.

Swashcuff
09-26-2011, 12:46 AM
No, but thats not really what I was asking for, I meant with regards to his usage rate, what kind of possessional load is so important to you. To avoid complicating things I was hoping you'd stick to his own team only without whatever players your holding against him for playing alongside of.

Sigh I didn't want to get specific with stats or have him on his same team. Without the players (namely Duncan) he'd still be under one of the greatest coaches of all time. If he was indeed so good I would expect him to produce just as much anywhere he went.


That's alot more specific, before you were saying with great confidence that his stats would suffer immensely.

I never said nor suggested that he would suffer immensely but rather stating that he may not rank as highly as he does, hence the reason I asked you if you thought he'd still be #2 all time among SGs in WS/48.


I know I just fail to see the logic.

Smh the logic is simple until Manu proves that he could perform at a high level with a bigger burden it will be incorrect to automatically assume that he'd produce at an identical rate if he were in a different situation.


I assume he would have to if he has a higher PER given the relationship with the stat then again he may not given the high pace Melos teams play with, but I would be interested in knowing the exact figures and level of comp given the small sample. Anyways this minor data set wouldn't change my opinion, like I've said before.

It's amazing how you would overlook it. Minor or not it shows that when asked to play extreme minutes Manu is not as effective statistically as other star players.


Don't forget it too suffers the drawback of appeasing to chuckers only without the advantage of accounting for pace.

I knew you'd say just this which I why I didn't include it. In those 18 games Manu attempted 18.3 shots per game. In his 11 games Melo averaged 21.9 shots per game. It's not that huge of a difference when you take into consideration that Manu's 1 is expected to be the more efficient scorer and 2 is the superior play maker. Also 7/18 as opposed to 9/11 (if the post season was included would be 11/13). To me to blame such a disparity on being a "chucker" and playing at a higher pace isn't very solid. What's Melo's role? Isn't it to be a scorer? Maybe if his teammates were as good as Manu's he would be able to focus more on other aspects rather than just scoring.


No offense but given your comparisons and limited insight, Im not convinced. Im more inclined to follow the theories of Dean O/Pelton when it comes to these matters, also given what I remember seeing about Manu stats/splits (which I can post once I'm on an actual cpu), and the general rule that starting+ more mpg is better for any player.

I'd like to see the Pelton's and Oliver's theories on this if you don't mind sharing them. I think I am quite familiar with Manu's statistical prowess not just of this past season but his entire career as well. Yes also the general rule is that starting and having more minutes usually equals a better player, but that doesn't always apply. Like I said IMO giving Manu more minutes may decrease his effectiveness.

Manu played 342 less minutes than Melo last season. That in itself equates to 6.7 entire games. Manu is always primed to perform at his best by with the conservation of his energy with ample rest. It's something only special players can do (come into the game and play at a high level almost at will) but Manu has mastered this.


Even if I were to agree with you its not such a paradigm shift that I take Melo. Atleast not based on this faulty premise.

How can you call the premise faulty when you have provided nothing stating that I am wrong?


Wait, you have Reggie ahead of Dumars? Not that its wrong but most wouldn't. At the other site which shall not be named, they had a thread about Dumars and someone essentially called him a rich mans Manu.

Go to page 7 or so of that very site's comparison section, you'd see that only one guy has Dumars ahead of Manu in their top 10 SGs. You'd also see one guy who is one of the most knowledgeable posters on the entire site saying Manu is better than your boy Tracy, West and Drexler.

THE GIPPER
09-26-2011, 01:07 AM
Here's the thing, when you tell me to ignore the stats and focus on things that don't show up in the box score Manu crushes him even more. So what exactly is the point?

Your point about durability is taken, Ive already admitted I would rather have those guys for a full season, but I take this question to ask which player give my team the best chance to win an important game and quite frankly if Manu is good to go, hes my choice and that's common sense taking. Then again if you ignore the stats, ignore the championships, the intangible and defensive superiority, then yeah I can see how you would think otherwise.

This basically proves my point. But why would you rather have ginobili for an important game over melo? A motivated melo is arguably the most dangerous player in the nba. Talent has never been melo's problem and in important games melo (like most stars) shows up motivated and plays at his best.

For you to say "Ive already admitted I would rather have those guys for a full season" is the exact same argument as a melo fan saying, "I'd rather have Lebron for the regular season but when it matters I'll take melo cuz he hits the big shot, therefore he is better." I just dont understand your logic here.

Put Melo on the spurs since he was drafted and this wouldnt even be a debate because of being coached by pop., playing with duncan etc. he would probably have multiple championships if he was put in the same position that manu was.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 01:47 AM
Sigh I didn't want to get specific with stats or have him on his same team. Without the players (namely Duncan) he'd still be under one of the greatest coaches of all time. If he was indeed so good I would expect him to produce just as much anywhere he went.

You have to be specific when discussing these type of issues. But now he can't even play for Pop? Also I prefer to focus on his actual team because we can actually look at data with and with a given player.



I never said nor suggested that he would suffer immensely but rather stating that he may not rank as highly as he does, hence the reason I asked you if you thought he'd still be #2 all time among SGs in WS/48.
That's the point, you would rate him lower than melo on the faulty premise that his advanced stats would suffer to that degree where we should ignore his statistical advantages, you clarified about WS/48 (something I already agreed to before expanding the argument beyond it) but this about as adv stats as a whole and from your post it did indeed come off as if you would expect a decline clear across the board, which if you know anything about PER and the Laws of skill curves would be pretty damn hard to achieve.



Smh the logic is simple until Manu proves that he could perform at a high level with a bigger burden it will be incorrect to automatically assume that he'd produce at an identical rate if he were in a different situation.
Based on what though? That's where your logic gets too simplistic. Simply put, you can't say his stats would suffer any more than I can say they would remain the same. Atleast the trends on average support my direction.



It's amazing how you would overlook it. Minor or not it shows that when asked to play extreme minutes Manu is not as effective statistically as other star players.
Amazing that I ignore a point you yourself consider minor and one that I find lacking in information compared to the various studies already done on the matter.



I knew you'd say just this which I why I didn't include it. In those 18 games Manu attempted 18.3 shots per game. In his 11 games Melo averaged 21.9 shots per game. It's not that huge of a difference when you take into consideration that Manu's 1 is expected to be the more efficient scorer and 2 is the superior play maker. Also 7/18 as opposed to 9/11 (if the post season was included would be 11/13). To me to blame such a disparity on being a "chucker" and playing at a higher pace isn't very solid. What's Melo's role? Isn't it to be a scorer? Maybe if his teammates were as good as Manu's he would be able to focus more on other aspects rather than just scoring.
I disagree completely, when dealing with such a small sample you need as much condensed information as possible.




I'd like to see the Pelton's and Oliver's theories on this if you don't mind sharing them.
Buy basketball on paper and Peltons prospectus, its the only place they share them but basically the rule of thumb is like a 1.5% tradeoff in efficiency for every increase or loss in usage as the starting point.



I think I am quite familiar with Manu's statistical prowess not just of this past season but his entire career as well.
Its about knowing the relationship between usage and efficiency in general, without that you assessment on the individual is moot.



Yes also the general rule is that starting and having more minutes usually equals a better player, but that doesn't always apply.
When your opinion gos against the accepted norm, you better have something substantial to offer as evidence.



Like I said IMO giving Manu more minutes may decrease his effectiveness.
Yes, that's clear by now.



Manu played 342 less minutes than Melo last season. That in itself equates to 6.7 entire games. Manu is always primed to perform at his best by with the conservation of his energy with ample rest. It's something only special players can do (come into the game and play at a high level almost at will) but Manu has mastered this.
Yup but in that shortened time doesn't he match him in the cumulative stats? In either event I've already agreed hes probably the better regular season choice, but as a player altogether when healthy and ready to go, Ill take the proven winner.




How can you call the premise faulty when you have provided nothing stating that I am wrong?

I disagree, Ive alluded to several concepts about the matter, apparently you just never heard of them, Ive already showed you a study on the correlation between minutes and per in the past yet even afterwards I've seen state outright baseless statistical claims.



Go to page 7 or so of that very site's comparison section, you'd see that only one guy has Dumars ahead of Manu in their top 10 SGs.
You'd also see one guy who is one of the most knowledgeable posters on the entire site saying Manu is better than your boy Tracy, West and Drexler.
Id be shocked if they too rate Reggie above both of them.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 01:55 AM
This basically proves my point.
Then you have no reason to attack my stance, its not one based on regular season worth alone.



But why would you rather have ginobili for an important game over melo? A motivated melo is arguably the most dangerous player in the nba.

Obviously because I don't share your opinion of Melo.


Talent has never been melo's problem and in important games melo (like most stars) shows up motivated and plays at his best.
Never? I recall him sucking in so many playoff series including one live against my Clippers.



For you to say "Ive already admitted I would rather have those guys for a full season" is the exact same argument as a melo fan saying, "I'd rather have Lebron for the regular season but when it matters I'll take melo cuz he hits the big shot, therefore he is better." I just dont understand your logic here.
Its not even remotely close to the same.



Put Melo on the spurs since he was drafted and this wouldnt even be a debate because of being coached by pop., playing with duncan etc. he would probably have multiple championships if he was put in the same position that manu was.
Yeah but they wouldn't have been as impressive as Manus title runs. Which includes tremendous efficiency on both ends.

Chronz
09-26-2011, 01:58 AM
Also lets not make excuses for Melos style of play, hes not scoring because he lacks the weapons to focus on playmaking, hes simply not that kind of player, as much as Karl tried to drill it into him he couldn't play the Tmac type of game. Which is ok, but if your going to dominate a game by scoring then you better be damn efficient and sound defensively.

Where the **** are the 3 resident Spurs fans we have, I shouldn't have to be the one mentioning his 05 title run. He played 35 MPG (more than his season average) against superior competition, and yet his stats exploded, but for some reason I'm suppose to value Melos few extra MPG above his superior impact all around? Even worse, Im suppose to think Manu couldn't handle a few extra MPG.

kdspurman
09-26-2011, 10:03 AM
Also lets not make excuses for Melos style of play, hes not scoring because he lacks the weapons to focus on playmaking, hes simply not that kind of player, as much as Karl tried to drill it into him he couldn't play the Tmac type of game. Which is ok, but if your going to dominate a game by scoring then you better be damn efficient and sound defensively.

Where the **** are the 3 resident Spurs fans we have, I shouldn't have to be the one mentioning his 05 title run. He played 35 MPG (more than his season average) against superior competition, and yet his stats exploded, but for some reason I'm suppose to value Melos few extra MPG above his superior impact all around? Even worse, Im suppose to think Manu couldn't handle a few extra MPG.


I vote Melo here. But to the folks talking about Manu carrying the load? I personally think if he wasn't on such a talented team, his numbers would be way up. The guy was a great ball player in Argentina before he came. I think if you take Duncan or Parker off or both, he definitely DOES carry the load. I would think all his numbers go up.

I don't see how he gets called overrated. He's virtually the same player as D. Wade but with less explosiveness, and he's a better shooter/play maker. Some folks may call me crazy but that's my opinion. Wade's got the advantage defensively, which is why overall he's got the edge.

There's a reason that since 07 Manu has been hurt EVERY playoffs and they haven't won or seriously contended in the playoffs. He was arguably the finals MVP of 05, he was huge in 07. He's a BIG part of the teams success. Look at the difference he made in the Memphis series. If he doesn't miss game 1, that series likely goes 7 in SA and who knows what happens.

I tried a few pages back... The fact is, sometimes it becomes a popularity contest. I know and think even if Manu went to the Knicks like it was rumored, his stats would have increased across the board. He is an incredible playmaker, he's got the clutch gene, he's easy to coach, the guy is a winner. There's no doubt in my mind if he plays more minutes he stays as efficient with increased production. Problem is, he plays with reckless abandon, and played so many extra summers for his national team that it's taken a toll on his body, thus the reason he's had some sort of injury the past 4 years in or near playoff time.

I'm not a real stat guru, i dont know all the advanced stuff. But I know basketball, and I think Manu is highly underrated by most fans. They think of him and think of flopping. I've been watching him since he's come over, and he adds a much different dimension to that team.

Da Knicks
09-26-2011, 10:49 AM
Funny how Melo and Amare are still not in the top 10, all this psd voting will be brought back to light after this shortened season. lol at all the voting that has took place, some people voted just because they did not want a certian player to win...pathetic but we will se who has the last laugh.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Funny how Melo and Amare are still not in the top 10, all this psd voting will be brought back to light after this shortened season. lol at all the voting that has took place, some people voted just because they did not want a certian player to win...pathetic but we will se who has the last laugh.

:confused:

THE GIPPER
09-26-2011, 05:44 PM
Also lets not make excuses for Melos style of play, hes not scoring because he lacks the weapons to focus on playmaking, hes simply not that kind of player, as much as Karl tried to drill it into him he couldn't play the Tmac type of game. Which is ok, but if your going to dominate a game by scoring then you better be damn efficient and sound defensively.

Where the **** are the 3 resident Spurs fans we have, I shouldn't have to be the one mentioning his 05 title run. He played 35 MPG (more than his season average) against superior competition, and yet his stats exploded, but for some reason I'm suppose to value Melos few extra MPG above his superior impact all around? Even worse, Im suppose to think Manu couldn't handle a few extra MPG.

Guess what Chronz? Its not 05. This isnt the same Manu anymore. And mentioning the clippers series that happened in what, 06? Melo was 21 years old. Every other playoff series he was in with the exception of the one vs LA in 08 where denver was the 8th seed he was very good. And dont say "Manu had superior competition." When San Antonio lost to those very same Lakers in embarassing fashion in 08 too.

D-Block21-Chito
09-26-2011, 06:57 PM
Amare is my vote... Close but I'm just going with who I'd rather have

NYKNYGNYY
09-26-2011, 08:13 PM
:facepalm:

Avenged
09-26-2011, 08:21 PM
Too much time was given for this poll!

Pierzynski4Prez
09-26-2011, 08:29 PM
Funny how Melo and Amare are still not in the top 10, all this psd voting will be brought back to light after this shortened season. lol at all the voting that has took place, some people voted just because they did not want a certian player to win...pathetic but we will se who has the last laugh.

And some people have certain opinions because they are a homer

Chronz
09-26-2011, 10:12 PM
Guess what Chronz? Its not 05. This isnt the same Manu anymore. And mentioning the clippers series that happened in what, 06? Melo was 21 years old. Every other playoff series he was in with the exception of the one vs LA in 08 where denver was the 8th seed he was very good. And dont say "Manu had superior competition." When San Antonio lost to those very same Lakers in embarassing fashion in 08 too.
You mean when Manu was injured? And the reference to the 05 season was just to point out a situation where Manu was capable of not only playing more minutes but raising his level of play in doing so. Which is what tends to happen when a player is given more minutes and a starting role. That it came against superior competition (From RS to PS) adds context to the comparison and makes it more impressive. Its not a direct comparison against Melo.

He sucked in his youth as well but I guess I cant hold it against him since Manu wasnt even in the league at that age.

Chill_Will_24
09-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Wow cant believe Melo won this so handily! He is so overrated. Pau Gasol deserved this spot

beasted86
09-26-2011, 10:27 PM
Wow cant believe Melo won this so handily! He is so overrated. Pau Gasol deserved this spot

Carmelo was, and always has been a better player than Gasol.

juno10
09-26-2011, 10:50 PM
Carmelo was, and always has been a better player than Gasol.

false.

beasted86
09-26-2011, 11:41 PM
false.

Even Carmelo's rookie season he was better than 3rd year Gasol.

Chill_Will_24
09-26-2011, 11:45 PM
Even Carmelo's rookie season he was better than 3rd year Gasol.

opinion

mkdo
09-29-2011, 09:38 AM
manu=overrated

kdspurman
09-29-2011, 10:11 AM
manu=overrated

Yea this is the resume of someone who's overrated. :rolleyes:

3 NBA Champion (2003, 2005, 2007)
2 NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2 All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)
Lega A (Italy) MVP (2001)
Euroleague Final Four MVP (2001)
FIBA Americas Championship MVP (2001)
All-Euroleague First Team (2002)
Italian Cup MVP (2002)
Lega A MVP (2002)
FIBA World Championship All-Tournament Team (2002)
Olimpia de Oro (2003, 2004 (shared))
FIBA World Championship All-Tournament Team (2006)
UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador (2007)
35 Greatest Euroleague Players (2008)
Diamond Konex Award (2010)
FIBA Americas Championship All-Tournament Team (2011)

knicksfan42
09-29-2011, 12:26 PM
Yea this is the resume of someone who's overrated. :rolleyes:

3 NBA Champion (2003, 2005, 2007)
2 NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2 All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)


Featured Above: The list you should have used.

Some of the stuff you put wasn't even basketball related.

kdspurman
09-29-2011, 01:46 PM
Featured Above: The list you should have used.

Some of the stuff you put wasn't even basketball related.

Actually it IS basketball related. :facepalm: not NBA related, but it is Basketball related. I took out the Diamond Konex Award and the UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador award.

3 NBA Champion (2003, 2005, 2007)
2 NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2 All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)
Lega A (Italy) MVP (2001)
Euroleague Final Four MVP (2001)
FIBA Americas Championship MVP (2001)
All-Euroleague First Team (2002)
Italian Cup MVP (2002)
Lega A MVP (2002)
FIBA World Championship All-Tournament Team (2002)
Olimpia de Oro (2003, 2004 (shared))
FIBA World Championship All-Tournament Team (2006)
35 Greatest Euroleague Players (2008)
FIBA Americas Championship All-Tournament Team (2011)

Hawkeye15
09-29-2011, 02:03 PM
I can't believe Gasol will be left out of the top 10. Doesn't surprise me honestly, but its a joke

Baller1
09-29-2011, 02:31 PM
Manu, Pau, Amare, Westbrook, and Nash would round out my top 15.

unleashthebeast
09-29-2011, 02:32 PM
I think the top ten is pretty cut and dry honestly. In some order, lebron dwight dirk dwyane kobe paul durant rose deron and melo, should all be the top 10 and we got that right. I believe it should be pau at 11 and amare at 12, but they will be flip flopped here because of the PF poll

PlezPlayDKnicks
09-29-2011, 04:11 PM
opinion

If he landed In jersey u would be singing a different tune...

The_Jamal
09-29-2011, 04:56 PM
I think the top ten is pretty cut and dry honestly. In some order, lebron dwight dirk dwyane kobe paul durant rose deron and melo, should all be the top 10 and we got that right. I believe it should be pau at 11 and amare at 12, but they will be flip flopped here because of the PF poll

Ya this. The realy debate on the top 10 would be Pau and Melo for that 10th spot

KnicksorBust
09-29-2011, 09:33 PM
Manu, Pau, Amare, Westbrook, and Nash would round out my top 15.

I'd take Aldridge over both Westbrook and Nash.

TheRunKiller
10-05-2011, 01:33 AM
chill will has man boobs

knightstemplar
10-05-2011, 01:39 AM
Wait, a bench player outscored Lebron in the NBA Finals, and hes number 1?

RevisIsland
10-05-2011, 02:16 AM
I'll be a homer and say Melo.

bholly
10-05-2011, 03:58 AM
Wait, a bench player outscored Lebron in the NBA Finals, and hes number 1?

lol, this is so stupid i don't even know where to start. this is about who is the best player, not 'who had the best finals series?'.
i'm not even an lbj fan, but there's no way you can discredit his pedigree based on something as stupid as him getting outscored by 1 point by a guy who plays the third most minutes and is the second leading scorer on his team, just because that guy starts the game on the bench.
you either don't understand what people are talking about when they talk about bench players, and why they identify them as such, or you're just trying to use a deliberately misleading stat to help an argument that you can't make properly.

juno10
10-05-2011, 10:27 AM
Wait, a bench player outscored Lebron in the NBA Finals, and hes number 1?

kobe is 6 even though #7,8,9 are much better,and there are 2 players on the board who are arguably better.

Jtatstarranch
10-05-2011, 04:41 PM
james is not the best player in the NBA.
He's not that good, he just shoots alot and has the ball alot, tends to lose alot in big games and in the fourth quarter though.

BranWingss
10-05-2011, 04:57 PM
james is not the best player in the NBA.
He's not that good, he just shoots alot and has the ball alot, tends to lose alot in big games and in the fourth quarter though.

Come on now. Even if you don't like LeBron, you have admit he's a very talented player. He does A LOT more than just shoot, ball-hog, and not come up clutch. Give him some credit.

Jtatstarranch
10-05-2011, 05:00 PM
Come on now. Even if you don't like LeBron, you have admit he's a very talented player. He does A LOT more than just shoot, ball-hog, and not come up clutch. Give him some credit.

thats an ironic post... You just now said why he isn't that good.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 05:02 PM
this is a crappy list...

how on earth can you have andrew bynum on this list (11 ppg, 9 rebs) and not have chris bosh, kg, paul pierce, or about a million other guys on here?

come on now...

Jtatstarranch
10-05-2011, 05:06 PM
this is a crappy list...

how on earth can you have andrew bynum on this list (11 ppg, 9 rebs) and not have chris bosh, kg, paul pierce, or about a million other guys on here?

come on now...

Andrew Bynum is probably a little better than his numbers but he's still only about the 40th best player in the league.

KnicksorBust
10-05-2011, 05:07 PM
this is a crappy list...

how on earth can you have andrew bynum on this list (11 ppg, 9 rebs) and not have chris bosh, kg, paul pierce, or about a million other guys on here?

come on now...

It makes perfect sense if you followed the poll votes. :cool:

Why is this still stickied?

daleja424
10-05-2011, 05:08 PM
It makes perfect sense if you followed the poll votes. :cool:

Why is this still stickied?

So we reward Laker's homers now?

Got it...

KnicksorBust
10-05-2011, 05:13 PM
So we reward Laker's homers now?

Got it...

Did you read the directions?

daleja424
10-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Nope... I didn't.

I have read them now... but still don't get the point of having Bynum anywhere near this list at this point... :)

KnicksorBust
10-05-2011, 05:19 PM
Nope... I didn't.

I have read them now... but still don't get the point of having Bynum anywhere near this list at this point... :)

To prevent someone like Paul Pierce being voted here when Carmelo Anthony is still left. PSD already voted and said Carmelo is better than Pierce. It wouldn't make sense for us to then vote Pierce ahead of Carmelo here. It preserves the positonal rankings. Bynum obviously won't win a vote for a long time and I think it was a clever way to focus the votes without putting 20 names up there and screwing up our other vote.

daleja424
10-05-2011, 05:22 PM
To prevent someone like Paul Pierce being voted here when Carmelo Anthony is still left. PSD already voted and said Carmelo is better than Pierce. It wouldn't make sense for us to then vote Pierce ahead of Carmelo here. It preserves the positonal rankings. Bynum obviously won't win a vote for a long time and I think it was a clever way to focus the votes without putting 20 names up there and screwing up our other vote.

Oh I get that... EXCEPT that some people may have completely missed the positional rankings and disagree with them and now they dont get a say...

VCaintdead17
10-05-2011, 06:08 PM
Nvm