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Toxeryll
09-23-2011, 09:01 PM
Shi Davidi
Brandon Morrow escapes fifth with a double play, his first since Aug. 28, 2010 vs Detroit, a span of 174 innings.

Bizarre season for Morrow. IMO, he needs to add a pitch that gets him groundballs and i think that will get him to the next level.

Thoughts?

3mikee_
09-23-2011, 09:04 PM
Just heard about this on the TV... flat out embarrassing if you ask me. I feel like you actually have to try to not get double plays to go this long without getting one.

Farsight
09-23-2011, 09:05 PM
I thought it was his first induced ground ball double play. I thought he had double plays (via strikeout, throw out). I could be wrong, but i remember someone saying he had recorded double plays, just not by the ground ball variety

"Ace"ves
09-23-2011, 09:07 PM
See, this is why Brandon Marrow isn't a good pitcher. Everyone raves about him for his amazing K/9 stat... guess what, you can strike out 8 and still let up too many runs.

Groundball outs are very underrated. Sure the ball is in play and there is a greater chance for the batter to get on base, but so what, ground balls also produce double-plays and allows fielders do their job.

Proof that Marrow isn't the man.

Btw, this is not hate on Blue Jays, cause there is a lot of talent they have that i respect, like Lawrie (small sample size, but he looks promising indeed)

Jeffy25
09-23-2011, 09:08 PM
Got really close to the record, only needed another 15 innings.

But his new cutter is designed to induce more ground balls

mtf
09-23-2011, 09:09 PM
See, this is why Brandon Marrow isn't a good pitcher. Everyone raves about him for his amazing K/9 stat... guess what, you can strike out 8 and still let up too many runs.

I don't disagree with you in theory. He is not a good pitcher...yet. He may never become one. The thing to like about him is the potential. He could be a special commodity if he could find some degree of consistency. When he's on, there's no one better (well, maybe Verlander :p) but that's far too infrequent.

Toxeryll
09-23-2011, 09:10 PM
I thought it was his first induced ground ball double play. I thought he had double plays (via strikeout, throw out). I could be wrong, but i remember someone saying he had recorded double plays, just not by the ground ball variety

if thats true, this streak is still kinda interesting not having that one lucky bounce especially in that span

Jeffy25
09-23-2011, 09:11 PM
Charile Linehardy went nearly a full calendar year without a GDP. On July 28, 1991, he got Luis Salazar of the Cubs to hit into a double play. He didn't get another one until July 4, 1992 when he got Andre Dawson (also of the Cubs) to hit into a double play. In between the two he went 178.2 IP without a ground ball double play. So we have:

1. Don Sutton: 189.1 IP
2. Fergie Jenkins: 182.1 IP
3. Charlie Leibrandt: 178.2 IP
4. Brandon Morrow: 169.2 IP

*stats are prior to tonight

Jeffy25
09-23-2011, 09:12 PM
See, this is why Brandon Marrow isn't a good pitcher. Everyone raves about him for his amazing K/9 stat... guess what, you can strike out 8 and still let up too many runs.

Groundball outs are very underrated. Sure the ball is in play and there is a greater chance for the batter to get on base, but so what, ground balls also produce double-plays and allows fielders do their job.

Proof that Marrow isn't the man.

Btw, this is not hate on Blue Jays, cause there is a lot of talent they have that i respect, like Lawrie (small sample size, but he looks promising indeed)

I guess Fergie Jenkins sucked too, right?

Farsight
09-23-2011, 09:13 PM
I honestly think next year we will see Brandon Morrow come to his own. I still think he will maintain 9k/9 innings, and will finally induce more ground balls. However, their is a certain amount of luck for him not to induce a ground ball double play for this long.

We have to remember the most sucessful pitchers have a good k/9, walk/9, ground ball %. Extreme ground ball pitchers, such as Halladay earlier on in his career did not become who he is now until he lowered his gb% and increased his strike outs. But it is a little easier for extreme strikeout pitchers to succeed than ground ball pitchers. Just hopefully Morrow can find a happy medium

Toxeryll
09-23-2011, 09:13 PM
Got really close to the record, only needed another 15 innings.

But his new cutter is designed to induce more ground balls

ya i noticed he started to throw a cutter his past couple of starts and it did him a lot of good. that pitch can take him to the next level

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't disagree with you in theory. He is not a good pitcher...yet. He may never become one. The thing to like about him is the potential. He could be a special commodity if he could find some degree of consistency. When he's on, there's no one better (well, maybe Verlander :p) but that's far too infrequent.

He does have great upside... but right now he reminds me a lot of Burnett with his electric stuff.... but its all about whether he is on or not


I guess Fergie Jenkins sucked too, right?

Did you really just compare Jenkins to Morrow :facepalm:

infernoscurse
09-24-2011, 12:37 PM
Bluejays forum :D

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 03:30 PM
Did you really just compare Jenkins to Morrow :facepalm:

You said this is proof that Morrow isn't the man. You literally said that in the post I quoted.

Well Jenkins went longer without a double play than Morrow just did, and you are bashing Morrow saying this is why he isn't good. Well two hall of famers did it longer than Morrow.

1. Don Sutton: 189.1 IP
2. Fergie Jenkins: 182.1 IP
3. Charlie Leibrandt: 178.2 IP
4. Brandon Morrow: 174.0 IP

You had a lot of incorrect things in your post, I didn't bother pointing them all out, but this isn't a terrible thing on Morrow. He has a better ground ball percentage than Jered Weaver. You don't have to get ground balls to be successful.

Getting ground balls isn't the perfect recipe for success, we used to think it is, but it isn't. You allow more base hits with ground balls, but you don't allow as many extra base hits or home runs. If you can keep the ball in the ball park, being a fly ball pitcher is actually a good thing.


If this is proof that Morrow isn't a good pitcher and 'isn't the man' than I guess that means Jenkins isn't the man either. That's where the comparison came from.

Morrow would be a fantastic fantasy pick up for someone, his ERA is going to drop, and once he learns how to strand some guys, he is going to be an all-star.

******2017
09-24-2011, 03:44 PM
Morrow is a pretty good pitcher that has improved the last 3 years. He got his walks down and could work on giving up less homers. He's no ace but he can be a fringe 2/solid 3. It's surprising that he's gone this long without a double play.

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 03:54 PM
You said this is proof that Morrow isn't the man. You literally said that in the post I quoted.

Well Jenkins went longer without a double play than Morrow just did, and you are bashing Morrow saying this is why he isn't good. Well a hall of famer did it longer than Morrow.

1. Don Sutton: 189.1 IP
2. Fergie Jenkins: 182.1 IP
3. Charlie Leibrandt: 178.2 IP
4. Brandon Morrow: 174.0 IP

You had a lot of incorrect things in your post, I didn't bother pointing them all out, but this isn't a terrible thing on Morrow. He has a better ground ball percentage than Jered Weaver. You don't have to get ground balls to be successful.

Getting ground balls isn't the perfect recipe for success, we used to think it is, but it isn't. You allow more base hits with ground balls, but you don't allow as many extra base hits or home runs. If you can keep the ball in the ball park, being a fly ball pitcher is actually a good thing.


If this is proof that Morrow isn't a good pitcher and 'isn't the man' than I guess that means Jenkins isn't the man either. That's where the comparison came from.

Morrow would be a fantastic fantasy pick up for someone, his ERA is going to drop, and once he learns how to strand some guys, he is going to be an all-star.

On the contrary, most people believe that ground balls will lead to base hits... most people are hung up on strikeouts.

Listen, I made a quick post because I know Morrow isn't a good pitcher and I know his high strikeouts gets him into trouble. When he is on, he hits the zone and gets Ks, but when he isn't, he'll let up the big fly. He is just too inconsistent.

Obviously there are other factors that made Jenkins a good pitcher. You are oversimplifying my post, which is hard to do, cause my post wasn't meant to be extraordinary complex

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 04:04 PM
On the contrary, most people believe that ground balls will lead to base hits... most people are hung up on strikeouts.

Listen, I made a quick post because I know Morrow isn't a good pitcher and I know his high strikeouts gets him into trouble. When he is on, he hits the zone and gets Ks, but when he isn't, he'll let up the big fly. He is just too inconsistent.

Obviously there are other factors that made Jenkins a good pitcher. You are oversimplifying my post.

You said 'this is proof that Morrow isn't the man'

What else were you implying?

Two hall of famers did this very feat longer.

And actually, Jenkins was almost exactly like Morrow at this point in their careers. Except Jenkins didn't strike out as many guys.

Morrow very easily could post a low 3 ERA next season. The long ball has been his kyrptonite, and they aren't usually solo home runs either.

Morrow should have a very nice career, and he took huge strides this season.

15th in the AL in FIP - 3.57
9th in the AL in xFIP - 3.50
15th in the AL in fWAR - 3.4
second to last at stranding runners (that will obviously improve and is the major reason for his higher ERA)
1st in K/9 - 10.18


Morrow is going to have a really nice career, and I think you are under-cutting him pretty badly.

Farsight
09-24-2011, 04:24 PM
You said 'this is proof that Morrow isn't the man'

What else were you implying?

Two hall of famers did this very feat longer.

And actually, Jenkins was almost exactly like Morrow at this point in their careers. Except Jenkins didn't strike out as many guys.

Morrow very easily could post a low 3 ERA next season. The long ball has been his kyrptonite, and they aren't usually solo home runs either.

Morrow should have a very nice career, and he took huge strides this season.

15th in the AL in FIP - 3.57
9th in the AL in xFIP - 3.50
15th in the AL in fWAR - 3.4
second to last at stranding runners (that will obviously improve and is the major reason for his higher ERA)
1st in K/9 - 10.18


Morrow is going to have a really nice career, and I think you are under-cutting him pretty badly. I completely agree with you, i am a huge supporter of Morrow. I do believe next year he will break out, and be the pitcher we all expect him to be. However, in the next few years, if his performance doesnt match his peripherals, i think he would be an outlier, and should be considered one of those players where his performance does not match his advance statistics

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 05:02 PM
You said 'this is proof that Morrow isn't the man'

What else were you implying?

Two hall of famers did this very feat longer.

And actually, Jenkins was almost exactly like Morrow at this point in their careers. Except Jenkins didn't strike out as many guys.

Morrow very easily could post a low 3 ERA next season. The long ball has been his kyrptonite, and they aren't usually solo home runs either.

Morrow should have a very nice career, and he took huge strides this season.

15th in the AL in FIP - 3.57
9th in the AL in xFIP - 3.50
15th in the AL in fWAR - 3.4
second to last at stranding runners (that will obviously improve and is the major reason for his higher ERA)
1st in K/9 - 10.18


Morrow is going to have a really nice career, and I think you are under-cutting him pretty badly.

Im saying Morrow is overrated as hell cause of his strikeout rates. And you just mentioned "Jenks" and thats a perfect example of an overrated pitcher cause of his high velocity. Now look at Jenks, his inconsistency left him with no role on the red sox bullpen (plus he got injured after he started sucking).

Morrow might break out eventually, but until then, stop talking about this guy like he is an ace.

Don't compare him to a HOF

Twitchy
09-24-2011, 05:17 PM
Im saying Morrow is overrated as hell cause of his strikeout rates. And you just mentioned "Jenks" and thats a perfect example of an overrated pitcher cause of his high velocity. Now look at Jenks, his inconsistency left him with no role on the red sox bullpen (plus he got injured after he started sucking).

Morrow might break out eventually, but until then, stop talking about this guy like he is an ace.

Don't compare him to a HOF

Jenks may not be the guy you want to use as a comparison. He's got a >50% GB rate (which you've been going on about as being very helpful) and his FB has dropped 3 MPH compared to where he was when he entered the league.

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 05:58 PM
Im saying Morrow is overrated as hell cause of his strikeout rates. And you just mentioned "Jenks" and thats a perfect example of an overrated pitcher cause of his high velocity. Now look at Jenks, his inconsistency left him with no role on the red sox bullpen (plus he got injured after he started sucking).

Morrow might break out eventually, but until then, stop talking about this guy like he is an ace.

Don't compare him to a HOF

Jenks?

I didn't mention Jenks.


And again, where he is at age 27, does compare to several past hall of famers, he still has to pitch another 10 plus seasons to actually get there of course.

But K/9 isn't an over-rated statistic, he literally has an elite strike out rate, and has proven that he can maintain that over the course of a season and can cut down on his walks.

He is a perfect break out candidate next season. If he can learn how to start stranding runners, he is literally as good as Tim Lincecum. Call that over-rating a guy, call that an exaggeration, but he has the same rate statistics and same peripherals. If he can strand runners he is a low 3 ERA pitcher who can win 20 games.

This season

Morrow - 10.18 K/9, 3.32 BB/9, 3.57 FIP, 3.50 xFIP
Lincecum - 9.21 K/9, 3.57 BB/9, 3.15 FIP, 3.32 xFIP

Lincecum allows less home runs (Morrow - 20, Lincecum - 15) and Lincecum gets more ground balls (about 10% more). Of course Morrow just started throwing his cutter and didn't have it all year.

Mitchell133
09-24-2011, 06:30 PM
One of the many reasons why he'll never be better than a #3 pitcher.

Jamiecballer
09-24-2011, 07:31 PM
Im saying Morrow is overrated as hell cause of his strikeout rates. And you just mentioned "Jenks" and thats a perfect example of an overrated pitcher cause of his high velocity. Now look at Jenks, his inconsistency left him with no role on the red sox bullpen (plus he got injured after he started sucking).

Morrow might break out eventually, but until then, stop talking about this guy like he is an ace.

Don't compare him to a HOF

what is this, a bad game of telephone? we're talking about Ferguson Jenkins people, not Bobby Jenks.

CHRISDODGERS
09-24-2011, 07:33 PM
I'll take him on the Dodgers, hell yeah. I've always been a fan and I think he has a legitimate shot at being a #2 or even a borderline #1 if he continues to progress.

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 07:36 PM
what is this, a bad game of telephone? we're talking about Ferguson Jenkins people, not Bobby Jenks.

yeah, that's my bad. I was referring to him as Jenkins but out of somewhere, someone said "Jenks"... and that made me think Bobby Jenks, cause ive never heard Fergie be called "Jenks" before.

still my bad, shoulda put 2 & 2 together.

anyhow, im not bothering to argue, ill let Morrow's career speak for itself. If he becomes a true ace and proves me wrong, good for him and i was wrong, but I don't think he will be anything better than AJ Burnett

mtf
09-24-2011, 07:41 PM
anyhow, im not bothering to argue, ill let Morrow's career speak for itself. If he becomes a true ace and proves me wrong, good for him and i was wrong, but I don't think he will be anything better than AJ Burnett

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying he's great right now. It's just legitimate potential to be great. Whether he finds a way to be consistent or not remains to be seen. It's easy to predict failure, because failure is more common than success, so I can understand the assumption. Many Blue Jay fans have also taken that position this year.

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 07:45 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying he's great right now. It's just legitimate potential to be great. Whether he finds a way to be consistent or not remains to be seen. It's easy to predict failure, because failure is more common than success, so I can understand the assumption. Many Blue Jay fans have also taken that position this year.

Well that's the thing, i see potential in a lot of players.... like Daniel Hudson is a potentially great player, as is Tommy Hanson.... but until they are/if ever at that level, i refuse to give them the credit they don't deserve

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 07:56 PM
Well that's the thing, i see potential in a lot of players.... like Daniel Hudson is a potentially great player, as is Tommy Hanson.... but until they are/if ever at that level, i refuse to give them the credit they don't deserve

Morrow is pitching at that next level (like number 2 starter caliber), he just hasn't started stranding runners yet. That's the only flaw in his game thus far.

Guys in that range over the last three seasons (FIP wise)
Ricky Nolasco
Chad Billingsley
Hiroki Kurado
Yovanni Gallardo
David Price
Roy Oswalt
Matt Cain


That's good company to be sitting with, and Morrow is deserving of a number 2 title.

btw, not to be rude or anything, but you brought up Jenks first, no one ever typed just 'Jenks' anywhere, I said Jenkins.



Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying he's great right now. It's just legitimate potential to be great. Whether he finds a way to be consistent or not remains to be seen. It's easy to predict failure, because failure is more common than success, so I can understand the assumption. Many Blue Jay fans have also taken that position this year.

I actually am saying he is there currently. He literally has one major flaw in his game, which is not stranding runners, which isn't something he is completely at fault for. He is pitching like a number 2 right now. Verlander has stranded 81% of the men that have reached base against him, Morrow has stranded 64%.

He has a 3.12 SIERA that's James Shields, Matt Garza area. He has pitched quite well, he just needs to leave more men on base. Giving up home runs doesn't help him, but that isn't the only reason he isn't leaving enough men on base. He gives up home runs as frequently as Ervin Santana, Hiroki Kurado, Yovanni Gallardo. His defense needs to pick him up, and he needs to get more K's when there are 2 outs. Something he will obviously do moving forward throughout his career.

mtf
09-24-2011, 07:57 PM
Well that's the thing, i see potential in a lot of players.... like Daniel Hudson is a potentially great player, as is Tommy Hanson.... but until they are/if ever at that level, i refuse to give them the credit they don't deserve

That's fine, it's your prerogative, but it's hard to accuse others of giving him credit where none is due when all they're doing is being fans and enjoying what they think may be the development of a superstar.

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 08:08 PM
Morrow is pitching at that next level (like number 2 starter caliber), he just hasn't started stranding runners yet. That's the only flaw in his game thus far.

Guys in that range over the last three seasons (FIP wise)
Ricky Nolasco
Chad Billingsley
Hiroki Kurado
Yovanni Gallardo
David Price
Roy Oswalt
Matt Cain


That's good company to be sitting with, and Morrow is deserving of a number 2 title.

btw, not to be rude or anything, but you brought up Jenks first, no one ever typed just 'Jenks' anywhere, I said Jenkins.



I already said my bad about the Jenks thing, maybe you should just drop it.

And oh, cause its FIP wise, it has to be right.... right? I find watching the games is a much better way to know how good a pitcher is.

I wouldn't want him as a #2 starter


That's fine, it's your prerogative, but it's hard to accuse others of giving him credit where none is due when all they're doing is being fans and enjoying what they think may be the development of a superstar.

Thanks... but fans crap on me for not liking him, so thats how the world goes round

mtf
09-24-2011, 08:12 PM
Thanks... but fans crap on me for not liking him, so thats how the world goes round

Really? Fans come up to you and say "Brandon Morrow is awesome, what say you?" and you reply "I don't care for the cut of his jib" so they decide to kill you with fire?

Please direct me to the fans that go out of their way to poll you on this issue and then crucify you for your response. I'll happily fight alongside you to bring justice to the internet.

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 08:14 PM
I already said my bad about the Jenks thing, maybe you should just drop it.

And oh, cause its FIP wise, it has to be right.... right? I find watching the games is a much better way to know how good a pitcher is.

I wouldn't want him as a #2 starter



FIP is a good starting point, those are similar pitchers and FIP is a nice stat. He has Greinke's K's. He has Jaime Garcia, Matt Cain, Matt Garza's K/BB ratio. He is a very good pitcher, and would be a very good number 2 in almost any rotation in baseball (not SF or Philly of course). Look at any stats you want, the only thing that he sucks at is stranding runners. Which is as much on his defense as it is on him. FIP is a stat that excludes his teams defense, and is a good barometer for measuring pitcher value.

I'm not trying to ride you about him, but you started in this thread saying not getting a double play is proof that Morrow 'isn't the man' and that he isn't the pitcher that people think he is. But statistics say he is.

"Ace"ves
09-24-2011, 08:40 PM
Really? Fans come up to you and say "Brandon Morrow is awesome, what say you?" and you reply "I don't care for the cut of his jib" so they decide to kill you with fire?

Please direct me to the fans that go out of their way to poll you on this issue and then crucify you for your response. I'll happily fight alongside you to bring justice to the internet.

Haha, kill you with fire :)

I don't know who exactly, but I've been in forums regarding "young pitchers" or "Cy Young" (these deviate to who is having a great season....somehow Morrow's name comes up)


FIP is a good starting point, those are similar pitchers and FIP is a nice stat. He has Greinke's K's. He has Jaime Garcia, Matt Cain, Matt Garza's K/BB ratio. He is a very good pitcher, and would be a very good number 2 in almost any rotation in baseball (not SF or Philly of course). Look at any stats you want, the only thing that he sucks at is stranding runners. Which is as much on his defense as it is on him. FIP is a stat that excludes his teams defense, and is a good barometer for measuring pitcher value.

I'm not trying to ride you about him, but you started in this thread saying not getting a double play is proof that Morrow 'isn't the man' and that he isn't the pitcher that people think he is. But statistics say he is.

Stranding runners is HUGE. It's part of the game. If you choke when runners get on base, then that's a huge flaw in your game, the biggest flaw!! I'd rather a veteran who knows how to get out of jams.

I don't like stats that exclude things like defense and such, cause its unrealistic, defense is part of pitching strategy.

Im sorry that my comment on Morrow upset you, but he isn't the man and he isn't the pitcher you all make him out to be. One day he may be, but that day is not today. Advanced stats say he is... start-to-start says he is not

Jeffy25
09-24-2011, 09:45 PM
Stranding runners is HUGE. It's part of the game. If you choke when runners get on base, then that's a huge flaw in your game, the biggest flaw!! I'd rather a veteran who knows how to get out of jams.
Morrow has done it in the past, averaging over 70% per year prior to this year, and in the minors he was up as high as 80% some seasons. It's not something he can control on his own.



I don't like stats that exclude things like defense and such, cause its unrealistic, defense is part of pitching strategy.

Until Morrow can play all 9 defensive positions, he can't be penalized for something he can't control.


Im sorry that my comment on Morrow upset you, but he isn't the man and he isn't the pitcher you all make him out to be. One day he may be, but that day is not today. Advanced stats say he is... start-to-start says he is not

It didn't upset me, it was just quite wrong. I didn't even go into the part about ground ball pitchers having to be better than fly ball/k pitchers.

Just because he didn't get a double play for 174 innings does not mean he 'isn't the man' Two hall of famers took longer to turn a double play, and I would think many fans would say they were 'the man' when they played.

Morrow is a solid number two in most rotations (varying between ace to number 4 depending on who else is in the rotation). And shouldn't have a problem having a very dominant season next year.

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 02:04 PM
Morrow has done it in the past, averaging over 70% per year prior to this year, and in the minors he was up as high as 80% some seasons. It's not something he can control on his own.

Until Morrow can play all 9 defensive positions, he can't be penalized for something he can't control.

It didn't upset me, it was just quite wrong. I didn't even go into the part about ground ball pitchers having to be better than fly ball/k pitchers.

Just because he didn't get a double play for 174 innings does not mean he 'isn't the man' Two hall of famers took longer to turn a double play, and I would think many fans would say they were 'the man' when they played.

Morrow is a solid number two in most rotations (varying between ace to number 4 depending on who else is in the rotation). And shouldn't have a problem having a very dominant season next year.

Oh my god, are you still not done with this? I told you already, it was a quick comment, i wasn't looking for a long detailed story.

You are COMPLETELY in control of. There is a mentality to this game, if you get nervous/rattled when runners are in scoring position, then you lack composure. We shouldn't let him off the hook cause he fails in the big spots.

You don't have to play all 9 positions to pitch towards your defense. If you know what you have behind you, you can take advantage of it. For example, if the right side of your infield is strong, you'll try to induce pulled ground balls from the lefties..... i dont think you are appreciating the full aspect of baseball and are too busy getting caught up in the numbers.

Once again, he may one day be good, but that day is not today. So no, today, he is NOT the man. And today he is not anywhere on the same level as the HOF you mentioned.

Toxeryll
09-25-2011, 02:55 PM
i think its more of bad luck and/or issues while pitching in the stretch than being nervous with runners on base

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 02:56 PM
i think its more of bad luck and/or issues while pitching in the stretch than being nervous with runners on base

bad luck? no way.

issues while in the stretch is very possible. but mechanics in the stretch is part of being a pitcher

Toxeryll
09-25-2011, 03:12 PM
bad luck? no way.

issues while in the stretch is very possible. but mechanics in the stretch is part of being a pitcher

From Jeff Sullivan's article:
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/9/9/2413796/brandon-morrow-toronto-blue-jays-stats


Strikeout Rate

Bases Empty: 27.3%
Runners On: 27.4%
w/RISP: 27.8%

Walk Rate

Bases Empty: 10.2%
Runners On: 8.8%
w/RISP: 9.7%

HR/Fly Ball

Bases Empty: 7.5%
Runners On: 10.1%
w/RISP: 9.0%

Morrow's home runs have gone up with men on, but only by a little bit, and not by an extraordinary degree. And one notes that the strikeouts and walks have not declined. If Morrow were truly falling apart with runners on base, we wouldn't expect him to maintain his strikeout and walk rates. We'd expect them to be much worse.

Let's just get to the punchline:

Batting Average on Balls in Play

Bases Empty: .293
Runners On: .367
w/RISP: .400

Line Drive Rate

Bases Empty: 21.8%
Runners On: 19.1%
w/RISP: 19.0%

Morrow has allowed a pretty average BABIP with the bases empty. He's allowed the second-worst BABIP with runners on, and the absolute worse BABIP with runners in scoring position, all without a corresponding increase in line drives.

Well, all this evidence says that bad luck is a factor. But theres also a chance that he has issues pitching in the stretch. I guess we wont know until maybe next year.

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 03:50 PM
From Jeff Sullivan's article:
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/9/9/2413796/brandon-morrow-toronto-blue-jays-stats



Well, all this evidence says that bad luck is a factor. But theres also a chance that he has issues pitching in the stretch. I guess we wont know until maybe next year.

I don't believe in "bad luck" any time outside of a play here or there.... over the course of the season, luck doesn't play that large of a role.

He may do better next year, but how would that prove "bad luck". If he does well, is it just "good luck"?

Morrow now = not the man
Morrow in the future = we don't know yet

I was actually a Morrow fan when he came up with the Mariners and was closing games, thought he had great stuff... i haven't lost faith in him yet, but im not going to call him a strong #2 starter... he isn't at that level, not yet

Mell413
09-25-2011, 04:02 PM
It might be a too simple to just blame Morrow's problems on defense. It could be part of it, but he probably gets his fair share of the blame as well. I think one day the results will match the peripherals, but I think Aceves post is vaild

Jeffy25
09-25-2011, 10:14 PM
Morrow's K/9 of 10.18 this season is the 48th greatest individual season of all time (min 150 plus innings)

Between Randy Johnson (91) and Sandy Koufax (59)

Greinke's K/9 of 10.70 takes 25th, getting ahead of another Johnson season (94)

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 10:18 PM
Morrow's K/9 of 10.18 this season is the 48th greatest individual season of all time (min 150 plus innings)

Between Randy Johnson (91) and Sandy Koufax (59)

Greinke's K/9 of 10.70 takes 25th, getting ahead of another Johnson season (94)

No one is debating his skill to strikeout people... that's one of the first things I said he does right

Jeffy25
09-25-2011, 10:20 PM
No one is debating his skill to strikeout people... that's one of the first things I said he does right

I wasn't adding to the debate, I was posting his K/9 success this season.

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 10:28 PM
I wasn't adding to the debate, I was posting his K/9 success this season.

why?

Jeffy25
09-25-2011, 10:30 PM
why?

I'm not continuing the debate because it's not worth pissing you off over.

"Ace"ves
09-25-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm not continuing the debate because it's not worth pissing you off over.

sorry if i was agitated. but i agree the debate isn't worth it at this point.

but i meant why post K/9? just a fun fact?

Jeffy25
09-25-2011, 10:33 PM
sorry if i was agitated. but i agree the debate isn't worth it at this point.

but i meant why post K/9? just a fun fact?

yeah, I do that a lot in random threads. I actually originally posted about Morrow and his no ground out streak in the Cy Young thread just because it was a neat fact and not worth creating it's own thread over, so random fact.

Zetterberg40
09-25-2011, 10:56 PM
had he not pulled it off its possible he might have been the first major league pitcher with x number of innings pitched or games to go the entire season without inducing a double play

JermanJaysFan
09-25-2011, 11:09 PM
Would have broken this streak a long time ago if Miguel Tejada was still in the AL East...

Toxeryll
09-26-2011, 12:05 AM
had he not pulled it off its possible he might have been the first major league pitcher with x number of innings pitched or games to go the entire season without inducing a double play

well, he has the record of most starts in a row without inducing a GB double play i think

Belmonts
09-26-2011, 02:53 AM
Thanks... but fans crap on me for not liking him, so thats how the world goes round

Fans crap on you for fully disregarding an elite K/9.

Belmonts
09-26-2011, 02:58 AM
bad luck? no way.

issues while in the stretch is very possible. but mechanics in the stretch is part of being a pitcher

This confused me. Bad luck doesn't happen as frequent as you think, yet it's easier for you to believe that stress is more likely the cause of some bad pitching.

These are professionals. Situations they face in a game isn't something they haven't done before.

Mike933
09-26-2011, 05:14 AM
That's surprising, I've watched a lot of Blue Jays games and I guess I never noticed Morrow didn't induce any DPs. But, I guess he's more of a strike him out or give him a homer type of pitcher for the most part. IMO this stat doesn't mean that much overall. He is still a good pitcher.

"Ace"ves
09-26-2011, 08:51 AM
Fans crap on you for fully disregarding an elite K/9.

Riiight, that's why I addressed his successful K/9 stat in the beginning of this thread. way to read buddy


This confused me. Bad luck doesn't happen as frequent as you think, yet it's easier for you to believe that stress is more likely the cause of some bad pitching.

These are professionals. Situations they face in a game isn't something they haven't done before.

Professionals? These are people. Some people crack under pressure, some don't. Not every starting pitcher has great composure, some people choke... my god, you oversimplify the game to just stats :facepalm:

Kelly Gruber
09-26-2011, 11:34 AM
He needs to add another pitch, but there is no doubt his peripherals show he's a guy that could break out into a star. I'd chalk up the DP thing to an anomoly and lack of another pitch. But his stuff is electric and when he's on, it's over.

He's nothing like AJ Burnett. Morrow has better stuff and isn't a total douche bag...

Jeffy25
09-26-2011, 02:54 PM
He needs to add another pitch, but there is no doubt his peripherals show he's a guy that could break out into a star. I'd chalk up the DP thing to an anomoly and lack of another pitch. But his stuff is electric and when he's on, it's over.

He's nothing like AJ Burnett. Morrow has better stuff and isn't a total douche bag...

He added a cutter two weeks ago that he is getting 60% ground balls on.

leafswin2011
09-26-2011, 03:28 PM
city woks city chicken has 60% more city chicken

******2017
09-26-2011, 03:31 PM
:shrug: What?

"Ace"ves
09-26-2011, 03:33 PM
city woks city chicken has 60% more city chicken

better than city sushi