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Andrew32
09-23-2011, 03:21 AM
Kobe is a GOAT Player and has a strong argument as a top 2-3 SG All-Time with Jordan and Wade but was he really better then Gasol in the 2010 Finalz?

For those who say Gasol only was a "Star" or a great player before he teamed up with Kobe lets take a quick look at
Gasols 07 Numbers the year before he joined LA.

21/10/3.5 2BPG on .595 TS% he had a terrible supporting Cast with Mike Miller as his Pippen and his 3rd leading scorer was Chucky Atkins... I'd take 5 Smush Parkers over 1 Atkins.

I was having this discussion with Bruno and I thought it was interesting.
I think because the ratio of Kobe to Gasol fans is probably something like 10,000 - 1 its hard for people to give Gasol fair credit for his play.

Who was better in the 2010 Finalz
Gasol who averaged 19/11/4 on 48% Shooting + 5 ORB Per Game and 2.6 BPG
Kobe who averaged 28/8/3.9 on 40% Shooting

I think Gasol was better in Games 1,2,6,7 that's 4/7 Games he was also the best player in the Final 2 Games and was the most Clutch between the two.

An interesting fact my friend showed me.
From a distribution/running-the-O standpoint, Gasol far trumped Kobe in the Finals. The big Spaniard lead the entire Laker squad with a phenomenal 26-13 (2.0) assist-turnover rate. He did a great job passing out of double teams, passing out of the low-post, high-post, perimeter, etc. The only player to accrue more assists on LA was the primary ball handler, Bryant, who handed out one more, 27. Unfortunately for the team, he also turned the ball over 27 times for a terrible 1.0 ratio.

Kobe 4th Quarter Peformance 2010 Finalz.

Game 7
12.00 - 10.00
Missed 2pointer 0-1
Turn over
Fouls Ray Ray

9.00 - 5.00
FT's 3-3
Fouls Ray Ray
DRB
FT's 2-2
DRB
Makes 2pointer 1-2
DRB

5.00 - 1.00
DRB
Missed Jumpshot 1-3
FT's 1-2

1.00 - 0.00
Missed 3pointer 1-4
FT's 2-2

Combined :
Shooting 1-4
3DRB
1 TO
2 Fouls
8-9
10 Points

Consensus :
I think Kobe was decent but not good or great in this 4Quarter, he couldn't make a shot but he was sent to the line 4 times and managed to get 8 points out of it. His defense also was unimpressive at best, also he was more or less invisible after the 5.00 Mark.

I think Gasol was the most important/clutch player in this games Final quarter, He scored 9 points in the Quarter and had 6 rebounds 3 on the offensive boards.

@@@@@@@@@@@
If you look at the Final 3 minutes of the game you see Gasol scoring 3 quick points to push a 3 point game to a 6 point game then another 2pointer to push it from a 4 point lead back up to a 6 point one. Kobe then proceeds to brick a 3pointer Gasol grabs the offensive rebound passes to Kobe who draws and foul and scores his only 2 points of the last 3 minutes.

So in the last 3 minutes of G7 in the 2010 Finals in a one or two possesion game Gasol scored 8 points to Kobe's 2 and Kobe's only points in essense came off of an offensive rebound by Gasol after Kobe missed a long J.
@@@@@@@@@@@

19/18 (9 offensive)/4/2 on 6-16 1TOV
23/15/2 on 6/24 4TOV

Clutchness/4Quarter Ratings.
G7 : Gasol>>Kobe
G6 : 20+ PT Lead by the start of the 4th
G3 : Fisher>>Odom>>Gasol>Kobe
G1 : 10-15+ Lead throughout the 4TH

Just to clarify I dont think it was ridiculous Kobe got the FMVP and I think a fair argument can be made for giving it to him but I think Gasols play in 2010 especially in R1 and in the Finalz gets overlooked by most fans especially Kobe fans who dont want to give him his fair due.

So what do you guys think? Do you think it would have been ridiculous to give the Award to Gasol?

kblo247
09-23-2011, 04:01 AM
Pau no showed the games in Boston. He plays at his average and they don't return 2-3 to LA.

Even though the first round had nothing to do with the FINALS MVP, LA got ran out the building in the game 4 in OKC where they force fed Pauand increased his touches. In game 6, everyone remembers the tip but forgets that if he shows up the first 47 minutes there is no need for it, and they forget Kobe basically carrying that team in the closeout.

If you want to count postseasons as a whole in deciding the award, you better account for the fact that every Laker not named Kobe Bryant and Derek Fisher whose play level increased, saw their production dip on the road in the OKC, Poenix, and Boston series. Pau was a beast at staples but he was tame in the cities of Boston, Phoenix, and Oklahoma City. In fact he no showed the closeouts in OKC (tip gave him a pardon) and especially PHX where he didn't even get double digits, and Amare/KG got the better of him in their buildings which was why those series went from easy to harder than they and to be since Pau didn't score the same or defend as well.

It is the finals MVP which means a whole series, not 1 game (Artest was game 7 MVP and odom box score doesn't tell the story), and not the play well at home award. Kobe easily had the best overall series out of everyone on both teams, people just get hung up on 6/24 but ignore that Duncan went 10/27 in game 7 and Jordan shot horribly to close Utah out both years, largely becauseKobe is polarizing in that you either like or don't like him mostly for a plethora of reasons.

And if you are going to site assist to turnover ratio or shot distribution, you better go back and watch the tape of those games where Pau repeatedly ran out the clock and looked for Kobe to bail him out over and over again with 6 seconds or less percentage busters so he didn't hurt his own fg% and see that Phil criticized him for that in Boston as did Van Gundy and Marc Jackson especially in that game where Kobe went wild but it was off bailout horse shots.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 04:06 AM
Andrew did you watch the 2010 WCF?

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:10 AM
I think the Finals MVP should be given to the MVP of the Finals.

I think Gasol was the best player over the course of the Boston Series G1-G7

I agree with you Kobe was better in games 3-5 but its not like Gasol was terrible in those games, he averaged around 15/10/3/2 in that span.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:13 AM
Andrew did you watch the 2010 WCF?

Yea, Kobe was amazing in that series and torched PHX badly especially in Games 1,3,4,6.

Gasol was also really good that series but not as good as Kobe, he was consistently good in games 1-5.

kblo247
09-23-2011, 04:22 AM
And KG had his way with him far more than Rondo did with Kobe in those Boston games and series as a wole when Pau kept fronting and getting burned over and over and over to everyones dismay. The fact is Pau wasnt consistent in his levelof play as a whole in the Boston series away from home, just like in the earlier rounds aside from Utah who is fodder to LA. It was my gripe with him then as well because people just swept it under the rug each round, and LA was damn lucky to have 6 and 7 in staples during those finals with the way he had been playing below the norm away from there.

And the whole he had Atkins thing is supposed to evoke sympathy? Kobe had Atkins and gave him the best year of his career at that time in that Rudy T/Hamblen mess which saw Kobe/Caron/Lamar only play 40 something games together. And as for the 5 smushs, c'mon he went from a starter next to Kobe to out the league. In fact Kobes rotation from the same period that Pau had his Memphis team is basically out the league. Smush is gone, Cook doesn't play hardly, Luke is collecting his Aflac payment, Kwame is a bobcat, LO is still very good, Mihm is retired, George is out the league, profit is out the league, Evans is a bench guy in Atlanta, radmanovic can't get constant time with the Warriors, Jordan and Sasha are on the shore, and turiaf is getting hyphy while not rebounding in New York. The level of help they had isn't really comparable overall talent wise, especially when Odom was pulling here one night, gone the next, and yet and still Pau didn't get a game in the playoffs with guys who had been there and produced before.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:25 AM
I dont think Kobe would have gotten past the 1st round with the Talent Gasol had in Memphis.

I've shown that Gasol was fairly consistent throughout the series and you can make a strong case he was better in 4/7 Games.

Sure road games are important but Kobe wasn't exactly spectacular in the Boston Garden and in the 1/3 games they won on the road swing was the game Kobe played his worst (10-29, 1-7 3PT) 29PT, 4AST.

I dont think games 3-5 are signifcantly more important then Games 1,2 and 6,7.

+The Games Gasol played his best were the games LA won for the most part.

Really his road games weren't bad when you look at the touches he got and I'd say he was by far the best defensive player for LA over the series.

He averaged around 15/10/3/2 on the 3 game road trip but he was only getting 8-10 touches a game.

kblo247
09-23-2011, 04:28 AM
And also the game he and Fisher made every play down the stretch.go back and watch who Fisher was playing pick and roll with to get open and get those shots and mismatches that quarter. Look at the tape and get back to me to see how they exploited Allen and Rondo

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:30 AM
Assume your referring to G3 i'll go take a look at the Game Tape now.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 04:35 AM
For those who say Gasol only was a "Star" or a great player before he teamed up with Kobe lets take a quick look at
Gasols 07 Numbers the year before he joined LA.

21/10/3.5 2BPG on .595 TS% he had a terrible supporting Cast with Mike Miller as his Pippen and his 3rd leading scorer was Chucky Atkins... I'd take 5 Smush Parkers over 1 Atkins.

Gasol was great before being traded to LA in 2008. Crazy to say otherwise. But you're emphasizing the wrong year. His crowing achievement with Memphis was 2006 when he lead them to the first round (swept by Dallas) on his way to the all-star game (his first and only appearance with Memphis). Pau Gasol never won an NBA playoff game before going to LA.

You should also note that he played 59 games in 2007. He played over 1,000 more minutes in 2006 than he did in 2007.

2007 Atkins: PER: 17.4, TS%: .580, WS: 4.9, WS/48: 0.114
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/atkinch01.html
2007 Parker: PER: 11.6, TS%: .526, WS: 2.3, WS/48: 0.045.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkesm01.html

Atkins dominated Parker in production and scoring efficiency. He doubles him in total win-shares and win-shares per 48 minutes. Atkins was far superior to Smush, detailed by the statistics and player reputation. Smush Parker played in only 56 more regular season NBA games following his notorious first-round benching against Phoenix in round one (none in a Laker uniform). He has been out of the league since 2007 when he was 26. Nobody has picked him up since (wonder why).

2008:
Memphis: 39 games, PER: 20.1, TS%: .566, WS/48: 0.129, oRtg: 114.
LA: 27 games, PER: 24.0, TS%: .639, WS/48: 0.239, oRtg: 128.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Gasols stats and efficiency sky-rocketed once arriving in Los Angeles. His TS% when up nearly 8% points, his WS/48 nearly doubled, and he saw massive increases in his PER and offensive rating.


So what do you guys think? Do you think it would have been ridiculous to give the Award to Gasol?

Not ridiculous. Usually when the statistics are relatively even, the award will go to the leader and captain of the team. 2010 was no different. Doesn't mean Gasol didn't have a great playoffs, because he did.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:48 AM
Gasols AVG PER for his PS Games in Memphis would be around 23.5 basically the same production he has given LA.
Gasols AVG PER for his RS Games in Memphis would be around 22-25 basically the same production he has given LA.

I dont blame him much for losing those years in Memphis because I think his team sucked plain and simple and the only Talent he had on the team came in the form of unexperienced Rooks or 2nd year players.

He put up around 20/7/4 in the Memphis PS on good %'s so I see no reason to blame those losses on him.
He is no Shaq or Hakeem but he is clearly one of the very best Bigmen in the league since probably 06.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 04:48 AM
I think the Finals MVP should be given to the MVP of the Finals.

I think Gasol was the best player over the course of the Boston Series G1-G7

I agree with you Kobe was better in games 3-5 but its not like Gasol was terrible in those games, he averaged around 15/10/3/2 in that span.

Generally so do I, but there are times when I think twice. Think about 2007. Parker won Finals MVP because he had a better four game finals when Cleveland got swept. But when you look at the numbers from the entire playoff run, Duncan dominated Parker statically. Yet, Parker walks away with the personal hard-ware.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 04:50 AM
Gasols AVG PER for his PS Games in Memphis would be around 23.5 basically the same production he has given LA.
Gasols AVG PER for his RS Games in Memphis would be around 22-25 basically the same production he has given LA.

I dont blame him much for losing those years in Memphis because I think his team sucked plain and simple and the only Talent he had on the team came in the form of unexperienced Rooks or 2nd year players.

He put up around 20/7/4 in the Memphis PS on good %'s so I see no reason to blame those losses on him.
I mean he is no Shaq or Hakeem but he is clearly one of the very best Bigmen in the league since probably 06.

His team sucked. No denying that.

But what do you mean up on top? PS Games, RS Games? And how are you labeling that. Is that one season or his entire careers for both franchises? Can you provide a link with the numbers?

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 04:53 AM
Was comparing both his RS and PS (regular season and post season) stats
from 04,05,06 (MEM) to his 08,09,10 (LAL)

Bruno
09-23-2011, 04:56 AM
Yea, Kobe was amazing in that series and torched PHX badly especially in Games 1,3,4,6.

Gasol was also really good that series but not as good as Kobe, he was consistently good in games 1-5.

He also killed Utah in the semi's.

2010 West Semis vs. Jazz= 52.3% FG (46/88), 32 ppg, 5.8 apg.
128 points on 88 FGA= 1.46 points per field goal attempt.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 05:00 AM
Kobe was great in the Utah and PHX series but so was Gasol.

Gasol put up around 25/15/4/3 on close to 70%TS!! in the UTAH series.

That is very impressive.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 05:11 AM
Kobe was great in the Utah and PHX series but so was Gasol.

Gasol put up around 25/15/4/3 on close to 70%TS!! in the UTAH series.

That is very impressive.

Gasol dominated the Jazz as well.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 05:17 AM
Yea, Kobe was amazing in that series and torched PHX badly especially in Games 1,3,4,6.

Gasol was also really good that series but not as good as Kobe, he was consistently good in games 1-5.

Agreed, there was a sizable gap in their production during the 2010 WCF against Phoenix. I know you're a fan of looking at a star players production in the close-out game of a series. Here are their stastics from game six of the western-conference finals (@ Phoenix).

Bryant- 37 points, 12/25, 10/11 FT's, TS% .620, six rebounds, two assists, two steals, two turn-overs, one foul.

Gasol- 9 points, 2/9, 5/6 FT's, TS% .387, seven rebounds, two assists, one block, two turn-overs, five fouls.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005290PHO.html

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 05:32 AM
Thats true and its part of the reason why Kobe had the better series.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 05:35 AM
Thats true and its part of the reason why Kobe had the better series.

And rebounding.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 05:41 AM
So would you agree with the opinion that.

Gasol was alittle better in the 1st round.
Both Kobe/Gasol were Dominant vs the Jazz.
Kobe was alittle better in the CNF
Gasol was alittle better in the Finalz.

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 01:42 PM
How was Gasol better in Games 1 and 7?

Game 1
Kobe - 30/7/6
Gasol - 23/14/3

Game 7
Kobe - 23/15/2, 10 4th Quarter Points
Gasol - 19/18/4, 9 4th Quarter Points

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 02:04 PM
So would you agree with the opinion that.

Gasol was alittle better in the 1st round.
Both Kobe/Gasol were Dominant vs the Jazz.
Kobe was alittle better in the CNF
Gasol was alittle better in the Finalz.

2010 Playoffs

vs OKC
Kobe - 23.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 0.2 bpg, 1.3 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.3 bpg, 0.2 spg, 53%fg

vs Utah
Kobe - 32 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.8 spg, 52%fg
Pau - 23.5 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 0.5 apg, 61%fg

vs Phoenix
Kobe - 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.2 bpg, 0.8 apg. 52%fg
Pau - 19.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.8 bpg, 0.2 apg, 57%fg

vs Boston
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48%fg


1st round - Pau
2nd round - Kobe, by far
3rd round - Kobe, by far
Finals - Kobe

showtym24
09-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Andrew did you watch the 2010 WCF?

Kobes best performance in a series in his career IMO.

showtym24
09-23-2011, 02:17 PM
Pau was money in game 6, and 7. But i dont mind kobe winning FMVP at all. Through out that whole postseason run he was the guy, the leader.

JordansBulls
09-23-2011, 02:19 PM
2010 Playoffs

vs OKC
Kobe - 23.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 0.2 bpg, 1.3 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.3 bpg, 0.2 spg, 53%fg

vs Utah
Kobe - 32 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.8 spg, 52%fg
Pau - 23.5 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 0.5 apg, 61%fg

vs Phoenix
Kobe - 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.2 bpg, 0.8 apg. 52%fg
Pau - 19.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.8 bpg, 0.2 apg, 57%fg

vs Boston
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48%fg


1st round - Pau
2nd round - Kobe, by far
3rd round - Kobe, by far
Finals - Kobe

Gasol led the entire playoffs in 2010 in Win Shares by a considerable margin

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 02:24 PM
Gasol led the entire playoffs in 2010 in Win Shares by a considerable margin

So did Clyde Drexler in 1995, and Manu Ginobili in 2005
and if we go by that then Kobe was the main man in 2001, since he had a higher winshare
your point?

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 02:45 PM
1995 Playoffs - win-shares
Drexler - 3.0
Hakeem - 2.8
Horry - 2.5

win-shares per 48
Drexler - .167
Hakeem - .143
Horry - .142

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1995.html

Robert Horry, basically equals Hakeem, and Drexler > Hakeem according to win-shares

Bruno
09-23-2011, 05:19 PM
So would you agree with the opinion that Gasol was alittle better in the 1st round.
Yes. Bryant really struggled before having his knee drained against OKC. Pau played very well and helped carried the load while Bryant was dealing with injuries and finding his groove.
vs OKC
Kobe - 23.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 0.2 bpg, 1.3 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.3 bpg, 0.2 spg, 53%fg


Both Kobe/Gasol were Dominant vs the Jazz.

Yeah, I'd call that one a wash; the numbers support that notion as well. Bryant was more prolific and shot a brilliant percentage but Gasols percentage, rebounding and scoring were also above his average. Wash:

vs Utah
Kobe - 32 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.8 spg, 52%fg
Pau - 23.5 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 0.5 apg, 61%fg



Kobe was alittle better in the CNF

Here is where I split with you. Kobe wasn't just a little better than Gasol in the WCF, he was considerably better. Observe the below stats, it's not close:

vs Phoenix
Kobe - 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.2 bpg, 0.8 apg. 52%fg
Pau - 19.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.8 bpg, 0.2 apg, 57%fg

Bryant averaged just as many rebounds, doubled him in assists, had nearly as many blocks and he did it on all on an equally efficiency TS%. Bryant stright up owned that Phoenix WCF. Was Gasol bad? No, although he rebounded on a pedestrian level. But Bryant was on another level, it's reflected in the stats.

Gasol was alittle better in the Finalz.

I don't see how he was better. Gasol averaged nearly 12 less points per game and less assists. Gasol only out-rebounded Bryant by 2.5 boards per game. When you look at the numbers below, I don't see how you can say Gasol out performed him. Had Gasol had been efficient you'd totally have a point, but he struggled as well, and shot well below his average (He shot under 46% for five of the seven games). I'm okay with calling it a wash; in the scenario where the statistical breakdown is so even, tie will always go to the leader and captain, that's what happened.

vs Boston
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48%fg




Kobes best performance in a series in his career IMO.

x2. It rivals his 2001 series against SA.

JordansBulls
09-23-2011, 05:30 PM
So did Clyde Drexler in 1995, and Manu Ginobili in 2005
and if we go by that then Kobe was the main man in 2001, since he had a higher winshare
your point?

4.3 to 3.6 is a considerable gap especially when the guy who had the 4.3 also led in it in the regular season as well on the team and in PER.

Bruno
09-23-2011, 05:40 PM
4.3 to 3.6 is a considerable gap especially when the guy who had the 4.3 also led in it in the regular season as well on the team and in PER.

Bryant led the Lakers in post-season PER. You don't have to post the numbers, I know them. Fact is, he lead them :D

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 06:32 PM
4.3 to 3.6 is a considerable gap especially when the guy who had the 4.3 also led in it in the regular season as well on the team and in PER.

ok, then Horry was just as good as Hakeem in the 95 Playoffs
its a fact, win-shares prove it

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 06:49 PM
Kobe's ranks on his team in the 2010 finals

1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

llemon
09-23-2011, 07:03 PM
Kobe's ranks on his team in the 2010 finals

1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

His parents must be very proud, and his wife, very rich.

ChiSox219
09-23-2011, 07:05 PM
Kobe played exactly into Boston's game plan and Gasol bailed the Lakers out. With so much talent around him, Kobe managed to use over 35% of his team's possessions while scoring at a .528 TS% clip...league average TS% was .543 that season.

Gasol was a lot better in Game 7 as well.

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 07:08 PM
Kobe played exactly into Boston's game plan and Gasol bailed the Lakers out. With so much talent around him, Kobe managed to use over 35% of his team's possessions while scoring at a .528 TS% clip...league average TS% was .543 that season.

Gasol was a lot better in Game 7 as well.

Game 5
Kobe - 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block
gasol - 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, 0 blocks

looks like Gasol played into Boston's hands, being soft on the road, letting them get a 3-2 lead

ChiSox219
09-23-2011, 07:20 PM
Game 5
Kobe - 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block
gasol - 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, 0 blocks

looks like Gasol played into Boston's hands, being soft on the road, letting them get a 3-2 lead

So what, it's a 7 game series and Gasol out played Kobe.

If you want to cherry pick one game, how about Kobe going 6-24 in the biggest game of his career at home?

Lakersfan2483
09-23-2011, 07:26 PM
So what, it's a 7 game series and Gasol out played Kobe.

If you want to cherry pick one game, how about Kobe going 6-24 in the biggest game of his career at home?

And? Gasol was 6-16 from the field in Game 7. Bottom line: Kobe got it done in the 4th in terms of doing what he had to do to secure a win. He had 10 pts in that quarter, snatched down 15 rebs. for the game and had the game clinching assist to Artest in the final minute. His shot may not have been falling, however he made plays when it mattered most and his team won the title (See MJ in the close out game against Seattle in the 96 finals, similar type of perfomance).

Lakersfan2483
09-23-2011, 07:32 PM
Pau no showed the games in Boston. He plays at his average and they don't return 2-3 to LA.

Even though the first round had nothing to do with the FINALS MVP, LA got ran out the building in the game 4 in OKC where they force fed Pauand increased his touches. In game 6, everyone remembers the tip but forgets that if he shows up the first 47 minutes there is no need for it, and they forget Kobe basically carrying that team in the closeout.

If you want to count postseasons as a whole in deciding the award, you better account for the fact that every Laker not named Kobe Bryant and Derek Fisher whose play level increased, saw their production dip on the road in the OKC, Poenix, and Boston series. Pau was a beast at staples but he was tame in the cities of Boston, Phoenix, and Oklahoma City. In fact he no showed the closeouts in OKC (tip gave him a pardon) and especially PHX where he didn't even get double digits, and Amare/KG got the better of him in their buildings which was why those series went from easy to harder than they and to be since Pau didn't score the same or defend as well.

It is the finals MVP which means a whole series, not 1 game (Artest was game 7 MVP and odom box score doesn't tell the story), and not the play well at home award. Kobe easily had the best overall series out of everyone on both teams, people just get hung up on 6/24 but ignore that Duncan went 10/27 in game 7 and Jordan shot horribly to close Utah out both years, largely becauseKobe is polarizing in that you either like or don't like him mostly for a plethora of reasons.
And if you are going to site assist to turnover ratio or shot distribution, you better go back and watch the tape of those games where Pau repeatedly ran out the clock and looked for Kobe to bail him out over and over again with 6 seconds or less percentage busters so he didn't hurt his own fg% and see that Phil criticized him for that in Boston as did Van Gundy and Marc Jackson especially in that game where Kobe went wild but it was off bailout horse shots.

Well said.:clap:

Evolution23
09-23-2011, 07:34 PM
So glad you made this thread because I was saying Gasol was finals MVP since g7 ended. Kobe had a mediocre series while Gasol pretty much saved the Lakers from losing that series, especially in the clutch. :clap:

ChiSox219
09-23-2011, 08:05 PM
And? Gasol was 6-16 from the field in Game 7. Bottom line: Kobe got it done in the 4th in terms of doing what he had to do to secure a win. He had 10 pts in that quarter, snatched down 15 rebs. for the game and had the game clinching assist to Artest in the final minute. His shot may not have been falling, however he made plays when it mattered most and his team won the title (See MJ in the close out game against Seattle in the 96 finals, similar type of perfomance).

Gasol had the better game 7.

knightstemplar
09-23-2011, 08:19 PM
So what, it's a 7 game series and Gasol out played Kobe.

If you want to cherry pick one game, how about Kobe going 6-24 in the biggest game of his career at home?

10 4th quarter points and 15 rebounds (outrebounded the celtics big 3 combined) in game 7


Kobe's ranks on his team in the 2010 finals

1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

kobe was the best player in the series

MTar786
09-23-2011, 11:25 PM
kobe haters will be kobe haters.. kobe was the best player in the 2010 finals.. and whoever said kobe and pau were equals or kobe was slightly better in the 2010wcf proves their ignorance because kobe was by far the superior performer in the 2010 wcf too. pau disappeared way too many times in the finals for me to say he was mvp. kobe was there someway or another in EVERY game 1-7.
not to mention kobe seemed like he was the only player in game 5 wearing a lakers uniform.
artest was mvp of game 7 too

MTar786
09-23-2011, 11:26 PM
Gasol had the better game 7.

so by the way you see things ron artest should have been finals mvp because he had the best game 7.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 12:42 AM
Gasol had a (much) better game 7 but that's irrelevant, he was better in the series game 1-7.

BTW :
I dont call putting up two double double's and 20+ point game (dissapearing on the road) and he did a good job limiting KG and outrebounding him heavily over the course of those 3 games.

Gasol was the better player in Games 1,2,6 and was by far the best player for LA in the most important G7 and was the one keeping them in the game at the end preventing a Celtic Championship. He was the better player over the course of the series, I know certain Kobe fans cannot stomach the fact that another player had equal or greater Value then Kobe at times in the 2010 playoffs but its the truth.

Oh and Bruno I agree with you that Kobe was "significantly" better in the WCF.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 12:46 AM
ok, then Horry was just as good as Hakeem in the 95 Playoffs
its a fact, win-shares prove it

Horry and Drexler were both really good in the 95 Playoffs.

Drexler was probably the best overall SG in that years playoffs.
Not as familiar with Horry that year but I remember him putting up a ridiculous 21/13/5 performance in the Final game of the Finalz that year.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 12:54 AM
10 4th quarter points and 15 rebounds (outrebounded the celtics big 3 combined) in game 7


Gasol had 9 Points and 6 rebounds in the 4th and 8 of his points came in the last 3 minutes of the game where Kobe was held to only 2 points and they came off a Gasol offensive rebound and assist.

His overall production and play in that game (ignoring the 4th quarter is far better) then you add in the fact that Gasol was more Clutch and I see no way you can say Kobe had a better game 7.. just ridiculous.

knightstemplar
09-24-2011, 01:29 AM
Kobe's ranks on his team in the 2010 finals

1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

explain OP

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 01:53 AM
Kobe's ranks on his team in the 2010 finals

1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

explain OP

Do you know how silly it is to post that without any context?

Yes Kobe led the team in scoring but he also shot 40% for the series.
Gasol scored at a lesser Volume but he shot a much better % and his offensive rebounding was a key reason they won the series.

Gasol was the best playmaker for LA in the series.
This was written in my first post but you didnt read it I guess :confused:

From a distribution/running-the-O standpoint, Gasol far trumped Kobe in the Finals. The big Spaniard lead the entire Laker squad with a phenomenal 26-13 (2.0) assist-turnover rate. He did a great job passing out of double teams, passing out of the low-post, high-post, perimeter, etc. The only player to accrue more assists on LA was the primary ball handler, Bryant, who handed out one more, 27. Unfortunately for the team, he also turned the ball over 27 times for a terrible 1.0 ratio.


its great that he led the team in steals but he wasn't very impressive defensively in the series and that was a big reason he was put on Rondo who was the weakest offensive threat the Celtics had on the wing.

His impact defensively wasn't even Close to Gasols over the course of the series.

Bruno
09-24-2011, 01:57 AM
Gasol was the best playmaker/assister w.e for LA in the series.

Even though he averaged less assists?


Great he led the team in steals but he was pretty bad defensively and that was a big reason he was put on Rondo who was the weakest offensive threat the Celtics had on the wing. His impact defensively wasnt even Close to Gasols over the course of the series.

Not true at all. He was put on Rondo because his greatest strength as a defender is as a defensive roamer. He played solid help defense all series long. Jackson prefered to put Fisher on Allen because Fisher is especially capable of getting illegal screen calls in his favor while chasing Ray around the perimeter all series long. Bryant on Rondo and Fisher on Allen allowed both Laker defenders to play to their strengths.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 01:59 AM
Bruno.. are you kidding me?

Gasol had "1" less assist then Bryant in the series with half the turnovers.

If Player A has 50 Assists with 25 turnovers and Player B has 51 Assists with 51 Turnovers you think player B was the better distributor? Clearly Gasol was the best playmaker for LA in that series.

I watched the series and I thought Bryant was poor defensively.
Rondo blew by him a bunch of times and made him look very old and slow.

Bruno
09-24-2011, 02:16 AM
Bruno.. are you kidding me?

Gasol had "1" less assist then Bryant in the series with half the turnovers.

If Player A has 50 Assists with 25 turnovers and Player B has 51 Assists with 51 Turnovers you think player B was the better distributor? Clearly Gasol was the best playmaker for LA in that series.

I watched the series and I thought Bryant was poor defensively.
Rondo blew by him a bunch of times and made him look very old and slow.

You're point addresses efficiency of play making, not total production in regards to assists. i have no issue with your point, only the way you phrased it. Gasol had the far superior a/t ratio but you're kidding yourself if you think he created more looks for his teammates than Bryant; Bryant had a much higher usage, that should be expected. When your usage % is as high and Kobes you're gona rake up a lot of hockey assists.

Regarding Rondo, Bryant did a great job making it tough for Rondo to score efficiently, and he did a great job of limiting Rondos play-making abilities.

Game 1: TS%: .412 Assists: 8
Game 2: TS%: .470 Assists: 10
Game 3: TS%: .468 Assists: 8
Game 4: TS%: .315 Assists: 3
Game 5: TS%: .750 Assists: 8
Game 6: TS%: .315 Assists: 6
Game 7: TS%: .504 Assists: 10

Assists per game for the 2010 Finals: 7.6

Season average TS%: .540
Season average APG: 9.8

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2010/

Those statistics reject the point you proposed. As defensive roamer, Bryant dared Rondo to score (which he attempted with poor efficiency) while helping out on Rondos teammates, resulting with Rondo averaging far less assists for the series than he averaged for the year.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 02:21 AM
Eh, I respect your opinions but I will disagree with you on the Kobe playing good defense on Rondo.
In regards to Rondo not scoring much or scoring inefficiently I think that was more of a result of Gasol and Bynum doing a good job at stopping him when he got into the paint or tried to take it at the rim, their length bothered him alot and made it difficult for him to finish offensively.

In regards to Kobe holding him below his average in Assists this is somewhat True but its hard for me to give him too much credit since Rondo still got 8+ assists in 5/7 games and had arguably his best performance in G7.

I dont want to be overcritical I just felt Kobe played really poor defense in that series and was somewhat of a detriment to his team on that side of the floor.

gwrighter
09-24-2011, 02:28 AM
It should have been Gasol. The fact of the matter is that Kobe disappeared during most of game 7, during the most important time. Kobe fans will make excuses but it is what it is. Boston had a great defensive plan in place to stop Kobe & it worked well. Pau was there to pick up the slack & he did so tremendously. Pau was clutch, Pau made plays on both sides of the floor. It is what it is guys, this is where ilemon will come in & bash us all for using stats too much. but if you actually watched the whole series it was apparent. The league handed the MVP trophy to kobe because it conformed to the Status Quo. Same reason why Griffin won the dunk contest, it sells.

tredigs
09-24-2011, 02:32 AM
"is a GOAT player with a strong argument as top 2-3 shooting guard of all time with Jordan and Wade". I can confidently say I stopped reading there and am laughing at the fact that this thread has 4+ pages to it.


As for your point (seeing other arguments... I get the debate...) - Pau DEFINITELY has a case - butt it's not clear cut - and Kobe still may have the edge if all factors are considered. But beyond the stats, Pau has a case as the teams best player from the All-Star break forward that year. Phil himself said Pau was the teams MVP going into the post-season.

knightstemplar
09-24-2011, 03:15 AM
It should have been Gasol. The fact of the matter is that Kobe disappeared during most of game 7, during the most important time. Kobe fans will make excuses but it is what it is. Boston had a great defensive plan in place to stop Kobe & it worked well. Pau was there to pick up the slack & he did so tremendously. Pau was clutch, Pau made plays on both sides of the floor. It is what it is guys, this is where ilemon will come in & bash us all for using stats too much. but if you actually watched the whole series it was apparent. The league handed the MVP trophy to kobe because it conformed to the Status Quo. Same reason why Griffin won the dunk contest, it sells.

he had 10 4th quarter points, the most in the game
how did he disappear in the moment?

and they handed him the trophy because he was
1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 03:43 AM
Because Templar in the last 3 minutes when the game was super close and the Celtics were making a comeback it was Gasol who scored 8 points and assisted Bryant on his only bucket.

The FMVP doesnt go to the player who scores the most "points" it go's to the best player of the series and that was Gasol.

Gasol was arguably more impactful then Kobe on the offensive end despite his lesser Volume when you take into account his much greater efficiency, offensive rebounding, and Clutch play.

Defensively he anchored the LA's defense with Bynum and was obviously far more impactful on that end then Bryant was. Here I can also make a list but it doesn't prove anything.

Gasol
1st - Rebounds
1st - Assists
1st - Blocks
2nd - Points (subjective) (much higher efficiency)

Acting like things like Efficiency/Defense/Clutch Play dont matter and just counting point totals is pretty silly man.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 03:48 AM
Kobe won the award because he was the best player in the series, get over it. No one else is disputing other guys not named Kobe in terms of winning finals mvps during diff. seasons. There was a reason he was voted the finals mvp as he was the team's most consistent player during that series unlike Pau who disappeared during the road games.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 03:53 AM
Kobe won the award because he was the best player in the series, get over it. No one else is disputing other guys not named Kobe in terms of winning finals mvps during diff. seasons.

It would seem that many people disagree with the notion that he was the
"best player in the series"

I see no harm in discussing it, its not like the league hasn't screwed up on many of its self given awards in the past in various categories and this could just be another one of those situations (I think it is)

Its more beneficial to the league to Prop up a media player like Kobe then a reletively no name (compared to Kobe) like Gasol that way they make more money and it makes marketing Kobe easier.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 04:01 AM
It would seem that many people disagree with the notion that he was the
"best player in the series"

I see no harm in discussing it, its not like the league hasn't screwed up on many of its self given awards in the past in various categories and this could just be another one of those situations (I think it is)

Its more beneficial to the league to Prop up a media player like Kobe then a reletively no name (compared to Kobe) like Gasol that way they make more money and it makes marketing Kobe easier.

So let me get this straight, when Kobe wins a finals mvp, it should be disputed because the NBA purposely selected him for financial reasons? :eyebrow: How about he won the award because he deserved it. Outside of Game 7 (which I believe Kobe wasn't as bad as many make it seem, his shot was off, however he contributed in other ways just like Jordan did in the 96 finals against Seattle, in particular the close out game in which he shot 6-19), which games was Pau clearly better than Kobe in because he was awful on the road in that series.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 04:03 AM
No, in most cases the Finals MVP is undisputed because the player is logically and statistically way ahead of the 2nd best player.

In this case you can make a very strong argument Gasol was better in that series and was more valuable to the team.

I am saying the league often has an agenda when they hand out awards (much more so in recent years) Kobe specifically has been given some awards he does not deserve and its obvious he is one of the players the league pushes as their "poster boy" mostly due to his general popularity in the US and around the World. We can just "ignore that" but I think most unbiased people would somewhat agree with me on this.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 04:09 AM
No, in most cases the Finals MVP is undisputed because the player is logically and statistically way ahead of the 2nd best player.

In this case you can make a very strong argument Gasol was better in that series and was more valuable to the team.

[B]I am saying the league often has an agenda when they hand out awards (much more so in recent years) Kobe specifically has been given some awards he does not deserve and its obvious he is one of the players the league pushes as their "poster boy" mostly due to his general popularity in the US and around the World. We can just "ignore that" but I think most unbiased people would somewhat agree with me on this.[

He was deserving of the finals mvp and won it because of what he did in that series. Outside of game 7, he was the team's best player throughout the course of the series and that is why he won the award. I don't think the NBA was pushing some agenda to get him voted as finals mvp.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 04:14 AM
I can respect your opinion if you think he was the best player in the series but I think I have made a very good argument showing that Gasol was infact the best overall player and MVP of the Finals in 2010.'

Gasol was clearly better in G1, G2, G6, G7 was Mr. Clutch in G7 and had a much larger impact on the defensive end throughout the series.

Not only that but he was also the teams best playmaker.. I mean I just dont see a strong argument for Kobe being better.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 04:16 AM
Kblo posted one of the better posts in this thread:

Pau no showed the games in Boston. He plays at his average and they don't return 2-3 to LA.

Even though the first round had nothing to do with the FINALS MVP, LA got ran out the building in the game 4 in OKC where they force fed Pauand increased his touches. In game 6, everyone remembers the tip but forgets that if he shows up the first 47 minutes there is no need for it, and they forget Kobe basically carrying that team in the closeout.

If you want to count postseasons as a whole in deciding the award, you better account for the fact that every Laker not named Kobe Bryant and Derek Fisher whose play level increased, saw their production dip on the road in the OKC, Poenix, and Boston series. Pau was a beast at staples but he was tame in the cities of Boston, Phoenix, and Oklahoma City. In fact he no showed the closeouts in OKC (tip gave him a pardon) and especially PHX where he didn't even get double digits, and Amare/KG got the better of him in their buildings which was why those series went from easy to harder than they and to be since Pau didn't score the same or defend as well.

It is the finals MVP which means a whole series, not 1 game (Artest was game 7 MVP and odom box score doesn't tell the story), and not the play well at home award. Kobe easily had the best overall series out of everyone on both teams, people just get hung up on 6/24 but ignore that Duncan went 10/27 in game 7 and Jordan shot horribly to close Utah out both years, largely becauseKobe is polarizing in that you either like or don't like him mostly for a plethora of reasons.

And if you are going to site assist to turnover ratio or shot distribution, you better go back and watch the tape of those games where Pau repeatedly ran out the clock and looked for Kobe to bail him out over and over again with 6 seconds or less percentage busters so he didn't hurt his own fg% and see that Phil criticized him for that in Boston as did Van Gundy and Marc Jackson especially in that game where Kobe went wild but it was off bailout horse shots.[/QUOTE]

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 04:23 AM
First the Finals MVP is based on the Finals series not the entire playoffs.

Second Gasol was better in the 1st round where Kobe played quite poorly and was Dominant vs the Jazz, Kobe was better vs Phoenix but Pau also had a very strong series and was consistent only having one bad game.

Third the Final two games with the pressure of Elimination were far more important then the 2 road games prior to that.
The idea that Gasol dissapeared on the road is laughable at best.
He had two double doubles with 12-13+ boards and a 20+ Point game all on good %'s.
He was only getting around 10 touches a game on the road compared to Kobe who was taking 20-30 shots so its not surprising his scoring dipped.

Gasol's offensive rebounding bailed out Kobe and LA the entire series long and especially in some key moments and his defense and shotblocking (with Bynum) also bailed out Kobe and the other LA guards on many an occasion.

He was a better player in G1,G2,G6, and especially G7.

The more I read into this series the more I think its obvious that Gasol deserved the Finals MVP.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 04:47 AM
Games 1 through 7 by the numbers:

Game 1: Kobe Bryant 30 pts, 6 assts, 7 rebs, 1 blk shot.
Pau Gasol 23 pts, 14 rebs, 3 assts, 3 blks.

Game 2: Kobe Bryant 21 pts, 6assts, 5 rebs, 4 stls
Pau Gasol 25 pts, 8 rebs, 6 blks

Game 3: Kobe Bryant 29pts, 7 rebs, 4 assts, 2 sts, 3 blks
Pau Gasol 13 pts, 10 rebs, 4 assts

Game 4: Kobe Bryant 33pts, 6 rebs, 2 assts 2 stls
Pau Gasol 21pts, 6 rebs, 3 assts, 2 blks

Game 5: Kobe Bryant 38 pts, 5rebs, 4 assts 1 steal, 1 blk
Pau Gasol 12 pts, 12 rebs, 2 stls, 0 blks, 1 stl

Game 6: Kobe Bryant 26 pts, 11 rebs, 3 assts, 4 stls
Pau Gasol 17 pts, 13 rebs, 9 assts, 3 blks

Game 7: Kobe Bryant 23 pts, 15 rebs, 4 assts, 1 steal
Pau Gasol 19 pts, 18 rebs, 4 assts, 2 blks

*One final thing I would like to say is that you mentioned shot attempt disparities between the two players on the road. If you go back and watch the games, Gasol had the ball in his hands numerous occassions and held the ball almost until shot clock was almost out and would kick the ball out to a guard. He was doing this so much that his own coach, Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Ditto for the commentators Van Gundy and Jackson. When you look at shot attempts from a player that often times can be misleading in that it doesn't account for the no. of times that actual player touched the ball and didn't look to score or put himself in position to score. It doesn't account for the times a player had the ball and made a move and was fouled.

So, my whole point is, Gasol had ample opportunities to touch the ball in the triangle offense, it was up to him in terms of what he did with it. You can't just look at Kobe taking 10 or more shots and make the statement that Kobe was getting the ball more and are hogging the ball, because when you break down the film you will see that Pau touched the ball almost as much as Kobe did and was in position to score quite often on the road, but didn't do much with the ball in terms of establishing good position and really using his post play to his advantage. Also, often times Bryant had to take a lot of bail out shots, meaning the ball being kicked it to him with only 5 secs. left on the clock and that can cause a player's shooting pct. to go down a great deal if it happens a few times a game.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 04:56 AM
Thanks for posting the numbers.

Pau Better : G1,G2,G6,G7 : LA Wins 3/4
Kobe Better : G3,G4,G5 : LA Wins 1/3

Gasol was the Key Player in this series.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2011, 05:12 AM
Thanks for posting the numbers.

Pau Better : G1,G2,G6,G7 : LA Wins 3/4
Kobe Better : G3,G4,G5 : LA Wins 1/3

Gasol was the Key Player in this series.

How was Pau better in Game 1? Game 2 was about even, slight nod to Pau. Game 6 was about even as well, although Pau was the better assist man, Kobe was the better rebounder in that game and had the edge in scoring also. You are reaching man. I also rest my case about Pau not being good on the road against Boston, which is critical for a finals mvp and the team's best player in a series.

Andrew32
09-24-2011, 05:22 AM
Why are road games more critical especially considering they had HCA.

And Gasol did not perform poorly in the road games he was consistent (2 double doubles and a 20+ point game) all I decent to good efficiency and he played good defense and outrebounded everyone.

G1 was close but Gasol was far more impactful defensively had much greater overall production and shot a much higher % from the field. He also grabbed 8 offensive rebounds. So yes that game he was better on both sides of the floor.

G2 : Gasol was by far the best player for LA and its not even remotely close, saying its "about even" made me laugh pretty hard (no offense)

G6 : Kobe was decent but cmon Gasol clearly had the better/more impactful game with 17/13/9/3

JordansBulls
09-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Why are road games more critical especially considering they had HCA.



I agree with this, when you have HCA those are the most important games. Road games matter more so when you don't have the HCA.

gwrighter
09-24-2011, 10:45 AM
he had 10 4th quarter points, the most in the game
how did he disappear in the moment?

and they handed him the trophy because he was
1st - points
2nd - rebounds
1st - assists
1st - steals
3rd - blocks

MVP's don't play ****** in game 7. he was shooting the lakers out of the game for 3 quarters. He just happened to start hitting some shots in the 4th. The league handed him the trophy because he was Kobe Bryant. Just because you hog the ball & take the most shots doesn't mean you are the MVP. Give Gasol those shot attempts & he would have put up better stat lines more efficiently. Regardless of that, he outplayed Kobe. tell me what you saw, not stats. Kobe's lucky his team was their to pick up the slack cuz when they don't, the Lakers get swept.

gwrighter
09-24-2011, 10:51 AM
Thanks for posting the numbers.

Pau Better : G1,G2,G6,G7 : LA Wins 3/4
Kobe Better : G3,G4,G5 : LA Wins 1/3

Gasol was the Key Player in this series.

This. It was evident. not a hard decision to make but a controversial one. Laker fans believe it was a bigger travesty to give the MVP to Gasol, then to overlook Gasol's contribution & give it to Kobe.

knightstemplar
09-24-2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks for posting the numbers.

Pau Better : G1,G2,G6,G7 : LA Wins 3/4
Kobe Better : G3,G4,G5 : LA Wins 1/3

Gasol was the Key Player in this series.


Kobe was easily better in game 1

knightstemplar
09-24-2011, 03:31 PM
MVP's don't play ****** in game 7. he was shooting the lakers out of the game for 3 quarters. He just happened to start hitting some shots in the 4th. The league handed him the trophy because he was Kobe Bryant. Just because you hog the ball & take the most shots doesn't mean you are the MVP. Give Gasol those shot attempts & he would have put up better stat lines more efficiently. Regardless of that, he outplayed Kobe. tell me what you saw, not stats. Kobe's lucky his team was their to pick up the slack cuz when they don't, the Lakers get swept.

Gasol was shooting like **** too

First 3 quarters of Game 7
4-13 Field goals
2-4 Freethrows

Bruno
09-24-2011, 07:32 PM
Eh, I respect your opinions but I will disagree with you on the Kobe playing good defense on Rondo.
In regards to Rondo not scoring much or scoring inefficiently I think that was more of a result of Gasol and Bynum doing a good job at stopping him when he got into the paint or tried to take it at the rim, their length bothered him alot and made it difficult for him to finish offensively.

In regards to Kobe holding him below his average in Assists this is somewhat True but its hard for me to give him too much credit since Rondo still got 8+ assists in 5/7 games and had arguably his best performance in G7.

I dont want to be overcritical I just felt Kobe played really poor defense in that series and was somewhat of a detriment to his team on that side of the floor.

I know you made up your mind long before starting this debate. I was just stating that the numbers conflict with your analysis.

Kobe holding him to under eight assists per game is a testimony to his defense, nothing something that you can use against him here. You recognize that it was well below Rondos season average right? Point is, Rondo was held below his regular season assist average and far below regular season TS% against the Lakers. Those are facts supported by statistics that can not be debated.

I also reject your analysis regarding Gasol and Bynum being responsible for his low TS% as he "tried to take it to the rim". Rondo didn't take it to the rim, that's the point. He was strategically held at the perimeter for the bulk of the series (as Bryant gave him tons of space and dared him to shoot).

Do you know how many FT's Rondo averaged per game during the finals? 2.7 free-throw attempts per game When a player attacks the rim, as you claim Rondo attempted, you get to the line more than 2.7 times per game. Rondo was held at the perimeter. The whole series is up on youtube, and it even has a playlist, you should go back and watch it, focus on the Kobe/Rondo match-up (I just did last night).

Serves as another example of statistics debunking a given point within your analysis. If you take the time to go watch the film you'd recognize it.

Lakersfan2483
09-25-2011, 12:11 AM
I know you made up your mind long before starting this debate. I was just stating that the numbers conflict with your analysis.

Kobe holding him to under eight assists per game is a testimony to his defense, nothing something that you can use against him here. You recognize that it was well below Rondos season average right? Point is, Rondo was held below his regular season assist average and far below regular season TS% against the Lakers. Those are facts supported by statistics that can not be debated.

I also reject your analysis regarding Gasol and Bynum being responsible for his low TS% as he "tried to take it to the rim". Rondo didn't take it to the rim, that's the point. He was strategically held at the perimeter for the bulk of the series (as Bryant gave him tons of space and dared him to shoot).

Do you know how many FT's Rondo averaged per game during the finals? 2.7 free-throw attempts per game When a player attacks the rim, as you claim Rondo attempted, you get to the line more than 2.7 times per game. Rondo was held at the perimeter. The whole series is up on youtube, and it even has a playlist, you should go back and watch it, focus on the Kobe/Rondo match-up (I just did last night).

Serves as another example of statistics debunking a given point within your analysis. If you take the time to go watch the film you'd recognize it.

I agree with this, well said. No matter what, he's going to believe differently than us. In his mind, Gasol should have won the award. I disagree with that notion as did the voters. The voters were correct in giving Kobe the award.

Good pts. about Kobe's defense on Rondo. His defense was a key factor in that series and often overlooked by many people.

Andrew32
09-25-2011, 11:11 AM
His defense was a key factor in that series

No man... just no. :facepalm:

I watched the games and I saw Rondo easily blow by Kobe on numerous occasions he would then run into the Gasol/Bynum/Odom wall and simply pull up on his dribble and pass or go up for an attempt and get blocked.

Playing on Rondo allowed Kobe to sag off a few feet and thus grab a few steals in the passing lanes but that was more a result of the situation then of his actual defensive ability.

I think LA played good "Team Defense" and was anchored by their bigs for the most part which is/was the key to their defense that year.

Acting like Kobe's defense was great or a key factor in the series seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Comparing his impact on that end to Gasol or even Bynum/Odom/Artest is silly also.

Lakersfan2483
09-26-2011, 12:03 AM
No man... just no. :facepalm:

I watched the games and I saw Rondo easily blow by Kobe on numerous occasions he would then run into the Gasol/Bynum/Odom wall and simply pull up on his dribble and pass or go up for an attempt and get blocked.

Playing on Rondo allowed Kobe to sag off a few feet and thus grab a few steals in the passing lanes but that was more a result of the situation then of his actual defensive ability.

I think LA played good "Team Defense" and was anchored by their bigs for the most part which is/was the key to their defense that year.

Acting like Kobe's defense was great or a key factor in the series seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Comparing his impact on that end to Gasol or even Bynum/Odom/Artest is silly also.

It is silly for you to not give Kobe credit for the job he did on Rondo. His defense was key in that series. Compare what Rondo did to other teams and you will see that Bryant's defense on him was considerably better than other guys. It is true that LA had a good defensive effort as a team, however not giving Bryant credit is wrong and is a mistake on your part. Bruno made excelllent pts. and you just dismissed them as if he had no idea what he was talking about. I think that is a bad job of analyzing on your part.

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 12:39 AM
It's not that I dont want to give him credit, and he does deserve credit for playing the lanes well and taking advantage of what he was capable of doing defensively.

However I didn't really see him "stopping" Rondo much.

He seemed freely able to get to the areas of the floor he wanted to get to and made Kobe look slow defensively at times when he blew by him.

At times he also roamed too much and let the Celtics get some easy buckets, I guess overall I was just not impressed with his Defense and certainly cant see how it was a "key to the series" that's not true at all.
offensive rebounding and post defense were the keys for LA in this series.

Its not even really a bad mark on Bryant he is just getting to the age where he can no longer be expected to keep up with such a quick player (imo)

BTW just rewatched the G7, add to Gasols Clutch list a huge block on Paul Pierce with less then 2 minutes to go.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 01:00 AM
OP is a Shaq fan, must of hurt watching Kobe win his 5th ring huh?

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 03:36 AM
OP is a Shaq fan, must of hurt watching Kobe win his 5th ring huh?

Why resort to childish comments like this? :facepalm:

#1 : Rings have very little (practically Zero) value in determining an individual players impact or Value since its a team accomplishment so even if Kobe ends up with 10 Rings it wont make him a better player and it certainly wouldn't bother me in the least.
(Example : I think 00-04 TMac was about equal to 00-04 Kobe he just had ****** supporting Casts while Kobe had very good ones)

I am both a Kobe and a Shaq fan so no it doesn't hurt at all I was happy for Kobe.

I gave Kobe plenty of Credit for his play in the 2010 playoffs but thats pretty irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the topic.

I dont see why you get so offended about this, its just a fact that logically and statistically Gasol was arguably as important as Kobe in the 2010 Playoffs and has a very strong case for Finals MVP.

HouRealCoach
09-26-2011, 10:24 AM
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41%fg
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48%fg

Thats about even to me.. 41% is horrible and so is 48% for a big man
18.6, 11.6 is dam good tho and so is 28.6, 8
2 steals for Kobe, 2.6 blocks for Gasol
3.7 assists for a big is also great but Kobe should have at least 4.5 assists

It could really go either way but you MUST give that to Kobe... Dont see how someone could be disappointed

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 11:18 AM
I agree just looking at it statistically its relatively close but when you factor in Gasols offensive rebounding and Clutch play both which were honestly the key factors in the series along with LA's interior defense I dont see how you give it to Kobe.

Gasol was "More Valuable" in that series and thus deserves the Award its pretty simple.

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

benzni
09-26-2011, 12:06 PM
(2010 Finals)

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Finalz > Finals

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 07:22 PM
Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
39%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

Damn, 10 rebounds per game for a Shooting Guard
and fixed the FG% to the actual one
and why not bold gasol's 46%, a 7 footer shooting 46%?

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 07:27 PM
On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 07:34 PM
Why resort to childish comments like this? :facepalm:

#1 : Rings have very little (practically Zero) value in determining an individual players impact or Value since its a team accomplishment so even if Kobe ends up with 10 Rings it wont make him a better player and it certainly wouldn't bother me in the least.
(Example : I think 00-04 TMac was about equal to 00-04 Kobe he just had ****** supporting Casts while Kobe had very good ones)

I am both a Kobe and a Shaq fan so no it doesn't hurt at all I was happy for Kobe.

I gave Kobe plenty of Credit for his play in the 2010 playoffs but thats pretty irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the topic.

I dont see why you get so offended about this, its just a fact that logically and statistically Gasol was arguably as important as Kobe in the 2010 Playoffs and has a very strong case for Finals MVP.

no it isnt

and your talking about the 2010 Playoffs?

vs Phoenix
Kobe - 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.2 bpg, 0.8 apg. 52%fg
Pau - 19.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.8 bpg, 0.2 apg, 57%fg

Gasol was not as valuable as Kobe

and for the finals, how can you say Gasol's numbers are better?
kobe has 28.6 ppg, Gasol 18.6, 10 PPG difference
11.6 rpg, but Kobe has 8 rpg
Kobe 3.9 apg, Gasol 3.7
the blocks and steals are one sided for each player

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 07:48 PM
Just because Kobe grabbed a bunch of defensive rebounds or did something well doesn't mean he was better, you've got horse/homer blinders on.

Even if all the evidence agrees with my opinion you will just highlight something you think Kobe did well at and say that's why he's better.. its kind of silly. Why cant you just accept that Gasol was one of the best players in the entire league in 2010 and was arguably as important as Kobe.

and Yes Kobe was better in the Phoenix series but the gap between his and Gasols performance wasnt huge, Gasol's edge over Kobe in round 1 is bigger then Kobe's edge over Gasol in the CNFinals and they were equally Dominant VS the Jazz (I'd argue Gasol was a bit more Dominant) but that doesnt matter. Then you factor in Gasol being better in the Finals and you can make a strong case for him not only being Finals MVP but the Playoff MVP aswell.


Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

and Kobe did shoot 37% in the Lakers 4 wins not 39%.

Kobe shot 35/94 in LA's 4 wins.

35 divided by 94 = 37%

LA had HCAdvantage so I dont put much extra weight on road performances and the only road game they won was when Kobe played terribly.

In the four games they won it was Gasol's dominant play on both ends carrying the team more then Kobe's although obviously I'd say Kobe was the 2nd most important player in that series after Gasol.

So accounting for Gasols increased assists Kobe only had a 4-5 point edge in overall volume and shot nearly 10% worse from the floor. Gasol was better on both sides of the floor in LA's Wins.

BTW shooting % = shooting % no matter what position you play, I hope you dont think a guard shooting 20% from the floor is somehow more efficient then a bigman shooting 45% because it doesn't work that way. Yes 46% isn't fantastic for a bigman I'd want my big to shoot around 50% but it isnt terrible either.

37% shooting for a guard is absolutely horrendous I dont see how you can so easily overlook that.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:13 PM
2010 Playoffs
Kobe - 29.2 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.5 apg, 46% FG
Pau - 19.6 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.5 apg, 54% FG

2010 Finals
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41% FG
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48% FG

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:15 PM
How can you say Gasol was better and more valuable?

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:22 PM
Because when you take into account things like.
"Efficiency and things like offensive rebounding + overall defensive impact (not even close)"

Gasol is better on both ends of the floor.

Your putting too much emphasis on Volume scoring ignoring the fact that Gasol wasn't far behind in most cases and was far more efficient and his offensive rebounding was key in the entire playoffs especially the Finals.

I'll take 20/11/3.5 on 55% over 28/6/5 on 45% shooting.

Sadly I cant even trust the numbers you post now after you lied about that 39% thing on the previous page.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:24 PM
Because when you take into account things like.
"Efficiency and things like offensive rebounding + overall defensive impact (not even close)"

Gasol is better on both ends of the floor.

Your putting too much emphasis on Volume scoring ignoring the fact that Gasol wasn't far behind in most cases and was far more efficient and his offensive rebounding was key in the entire playoffs especially the Finals.

:facepalm:

I'm done

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:32 PM
Thats off topic anyway
This thread is about who should have won FMVP and its quite clear
looking at the 4 LA Final wins that Gasol was better on both ends of the floor.
Unless you think 26/3.5/37%FG is better then 19/5 on 46%FG


Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:38 PM
29.6 ppg
8 rpg
3.9 apg

>

19.6 ppg
11.6 rpg
3.7 apg

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:43 PM
Jeez.. you cant refute a single point I made.

Typical Kobe homer ignoring things like Efficiency/Defense, Wins/Losses etc... :facepalm:

19/14/5/2.5 on 46%FG >>>>> 26.5/10/3.75/2 on 37%FG

Pau Gasol 2010 FMVP.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:45 PM
Thats off topic anyway
This thread is about who should have won FMVP and its quite clear
looking at the 4 LA Final wins that Gasol was better on both ends of the floor.
Unless you think 26/3.5/37%FG is better then 19/5 on 46%FG

+ this


On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

Kobe Finals MVP

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:46 PM
Jeez.. you cant refute a single point I made.
Typical Kobe homer ignoring things like Efficiency/Defense, Wins/Losses etc... :facepalm:

19/14/5/2.5 on 46%FG >>>>> 26.5/10/3.75/2 on 37%FG

Pau Gasol 2010 FMVP.

Final MVP's dont shoot 37%

:facepalm:

2010 Finals

Kobe
28.6 ppg
8 rpg
3.9 apg
41% FG

Gasol
18.6 ppg
11.6 rpg
3.7 apg
48%

29/8/4 > 19/12/4

Kobe Finals MVP

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:49 PM
efficiency - Kobe is a SG, Gasol is a 7 footer, lol
Kobe took 47 3s, Gasol took 2

a 7 footer is supposed to have a higher %

2011 Finals
Chandler - 59.4%
Dirk - 41.5%

Chandler MVP? lol

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:51 PM
They lost on the Road when Kobe played well I dont see how that point aid's your argument.

Pau = Better in Games 1,2,6,7 = LA wins 3/4
Kobe = Better in 3-5 = LA win 1/3

see the pattern?

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:53 PM
efficiency - Kobe is a SG, Gasol is a 7 footer, lol
Kobe took 47 3s, Gasol took 2

a 7 footer is supposed to have a higher %

2011 Finals
Chandler - 59.4%
Dirk - 41.5%

Chandler MVP? lol

Efficiency is Efficiency its not judged differently based on position.

in the 4 Games LA won in the Finals Kobe only produced 4-5 more PPG on 10% worse FG% Gasol also out assisted him with 5 assists to 3 and was far more impactful on the defensive end.

Sorry but Kobe took almost twice the amount of shots to make 4-5 more ppg then Gasol and got out assisted and didn't have half the defensive impact, its not even close dude.

If you wanna try and make an argument for Kobe being the playoff MVP that's fine but he wasn't the FMVP.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:54 PM
They lost on the Road when Kobe played well I dont see how that point aid's your argument.

Pau = Better in Games 1,2,6,7 = LA wins 3/4
Kobe = Better in 3-5 = LA win 1/3

see the pattern?

Laker lost on the road because Gasol laid in egg in Game 5 and 6

and I dont know what you were watching in game 1, Kobe was better


On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 08:56 PM
Efficiency is Efficiency its not judged differently based on position.

in the 4 Games LA won in the Finals Kobe only produced 4-5 more PPG on 10% worse FG% Gasol also out assisted him with 5 assists to 3 and was far more impactful on the defensive end.

Sorry but Kobe took almost twice the amount of shots to make 4-5 more ppg then Gasol and got out assisted and didn't have half the defensive impact, its not even close dude.

If you wanna try and make an argument for Kobe being the playoff MVP that's fine but he wasn't the FMVP.

7.5 more PPG in the wins
10.0 more PPG for the whole series
18.0 more PPG on the road

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 08:59 PM
Its actually 5PPG more in Wins when you account for APG on 10% worse efficiency.

Took twice the amount of shots to make 5 more points yea Gasol was much better offensively.

Kobe shot 37% in the 4 LA Final Wins
Gasol shot 46% in the 4 LA Final Wins

Gasol 5APG
Kobe 3.75APG

Keep making excuses but when the Lakers won Gasol was the MVP its as simple as that.

I dont see how you can argue with such lopsided stats (in the Wins)

Its really not close at all.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:00 PM
defensive impact your speaking of

Kobe made 11 all defensive teams, gasol made 0, so lol

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 09:05 PM
LOL yea and he really deserved his ALL-D selection in 2010, cant argue with you on that.

Kobe's impact defensively was certainly better then Gasols since he was on the ALL-D team.:clap::clap::clap:

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Its actually 5PPG more in Wins when you account for APG on 10% worse efficiency.

Took twice the amount of shots to make 5 more points yea Gasol was much better offensively.

Kobe shot 37% in the 4 LA Final Wins
Gasol shot 46% in the 4 LA Final Wins

Gasol 5APG
Kobe 3.75APG

Keep making excuses but when the Lakers won Gasol was the MVP its as simple as that.

I dont see how you can argue with such lopsided stats (in the Wins)

Its really not close at all.

26.5-19 = 7.5

and


On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

15/9/2 MVP? while teammate is 33/6/3?
lol

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 09:08 PM
15/9/2 MVP? while teammate is 33/6/3?


Two can play that idiotic game. :facepalm:

26/10/3.5 37%FG MVP? while teammate is 19/14/5/2.5 46%FG

The difference here is that in those 4 Games the Lakers won, in the two road games where Kobe outplayed Gasol they "lost"

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:10 PM
Two can play that idiotic game. :facepalm:

26/10/3.5 37%FG MVP? while teammate is 19/14/5/2.5 46%FG

26.5 ppg, 10 rpg, 10 rebounds for a shooting guard is great

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:10 PM
LOL yea and he really deserved his ALL-D selection in 2010, cant argue with you on that.

Kobe's impact defensively was certainly better then Gasols since he was on the ALL-D team.:clap::clap::clap:


You're point addresses efficiency of play making, not total production in regards to assists. i have no issue with your point, only the way you phrased it. Gasol had the far superior a/t ratio but you're kidding yourself if you think he created more looks for his teammates than Bryant; Bryant had a much higher usage, that should be expected. When your usage % is as high and Kobes you're gona rake up a lot of hockey assists.

Regarding Rondo, Bryant did a great job making it tough for Rondo to score efficiently, and he did a great job of limiting Rondos play-making abilities.

Game 1: TS%: .412 Assists: 8
Game 2: TS%: .470 Assists: 10
Game 3: TS%: .468 Assists: 8
Game 4: TS%: .315 Assists: 3
Game 5: TS%: .750 Assists: 8
Game 6: TS%: .315 Assists: 6
Game 7: TS%: .504 Assists: 10

Assists per game for the 2010 Finals: 7.6

Season average TS%: .540
Season average APG: 9.8

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2010/

Those statistics reject the point you proposed. As defensive roamer, Bryant dared Rondo to score (which he attempted with poor efficiency) while helping out on Rondos teammates, resulting with Rondo averaging far less assists for the series than he averaged for the year.

:clap:

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:12 PM
you cant cherrypick

its the 2010 finals, the whole series, you have to count every game, even the ones when gasol laid eggs

post the 2010 finals stats

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 09:12 PM
26.5 ppg, 10 rpg, 10 rebounds for a shooting guard is great

26/10 on 37% Shooting isn't exactly "great" in my book my friend. :(

Thats what Kobe did in the 4 Games LA won, and it was Gasol and Bynums Post Defense that held Rondo to those low %'s not Kobe's lack luster M2M D. Rondo blew by him at will.

Kobe's defense was mediocre at best in the Finals.

He rarely applyed any pressure on Rondo because he is too slow to stay in front of him and thats why Rondo got 8+ assists in almost every game.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:14 PM
Game 5:
Bryant - 38 pts, 5rebs, 4 assts, 1 steal, 1 blk
Gasol - 12 pts, 12 rebs, 0 assts, 2 stls, 0 blks, 1 stl

I guess this doesnt count cause it doesnt fit your agenda huh?
series tied 2-2 before the game, with a chance to take a 3-2 lead, and this game isnt important?

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:16 PM
26/10 on 37% Shooting isn't exactly "great" in my book my friend. :(

Thats what Kobe did in the 4 Games LA won, and it was Gasol and Bynums Post Defense that held Rondo to those low %'s not Kobe's lack luster M2M D. Rondo blew by him at will.

Kobe's defense was mediocre at best in the Finals.

He rarely applyed any pressure on Rondo because he is too slow to stay in front of him and thats why Rondo got 8+ assists in almost every game.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:18 PM
you cant cherrypick

its the 2010 finals, the whole series, you have to count every game, even the ones when gasol laid eggs

post the 2010 finals stats

...

Ovratd1up
09-26-2011, 09:18 PM
Why doesn't someone just include every game? :shrug:

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:21 PM
Why doesn't someone just include every game? :shrug:

2010 Finals
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41% FG
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48% FG

I already did
but OP doesnt want to include the road games..doesnt ...fit..his...agenda

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 09:37 PM
You can post the road games and the full stats.
Infact im certain I posted them earlier in the thread.

Gasol's huge edge in efficiency/defense/playmaking and clutch play are why he's FMVP Kobe's edge in Volume isn't nearly enough to overtake all that, not even close.

Not to mention his offensive rebounding which was a key to the entire series.

anyway I gtg now but keep arguing if u want :P

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 09:45 PM
2010 Finals
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41% FG
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48% FG


2010 Finals MVP - Kobe Bryant

Andrew32
09-26-2011, 10:06 PM
Facts :
LA only won a single game where Kobe outplayed Pau (G3 @ BOS)
Gasol was the best player in 4/7 Games
Gasol was much better in the two most critical games of the series G6 and G7 (Where he bailed out Kobe and the rest of the Lakers in the Final 3 minutes scoring 8 points and coming up with a clutch block on pierce.

Fact - Gasol FMVP.

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 10:41 PM
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/18/kobe-bryant-wins-2010-finals-mvp/

knightstemplar
09-26-2011, 10:44 PM
Facts :
LA only won a single game where Kobe outplayed Pau (G3 @ BOS)
Gasol was the best player in 4/7 Games
Gasol was much better in the two most critical games of the series G6 and G7 (Where he bailed out Kobe and the rest of the Lakers in the Final 3 minutes scoring 8 points and coming up with a clutch block on pierce.

Fact - Gasol FMVP.

Kobe was better in gm 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and they were even in game 7

ldawg
09-26-2011, 10:51 PM
Kobe is the motor of this team. Last time i look Kobe push Pau when he is about to cave in not the other way around. Pau was very instumental in La success but kobe desire to win motivates this team to be great and not just settle for good. In order to win rings you need solid inside play and Pau provided that. Kobe would not win any rings with Bynum and Brian cook both of whom had no clue and only cared about points. Cook hardly plays now and Bynum is still in rookie form and can't stay healty long enough to matter. Even when Jordan Dominate it was their defense that won games. Lakers got swept by Dallas because they played little defense and they change what worked in the pass and their strength they talk about became their weakness they were to big and slow. Bynum was efficient but La defense went south from fisher to Bynum and they develope locker room issues from their young center. He went from least played to mr pass me the ball.

Ovratd1up
09-27-2011, 07:22 PM
2010 Finals
Kobe - 28.6 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg, 41% FG
Pau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48% FG

Looks pretty even, but Kobe was far too inefficient for me. I think Pau was of more value in that series.

Bruno
09-28-2011, 08:32 PM
Gotta love these fans who can't stand Kobe becoming the 4th back-to-back Finals MVP in league history. Read 'em and weap, and move on. If you're going to present well rounded stastical analysis, cool. If not, go get some french-cries and wham-burgers because you're treading mud.

magic0320
09-29-2011, 03:15 AM
haha I do not remember Gasol taking double or triple cover, while Kobe was getting all the looks while Gasol was sitting around like ***** so he get get some easy points and rebounds.

Kobe worked 10 times harder than Gasol at everything during every second, while Gasol was just looking around for easy stuff and Kobe.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 04:10 AM
Gasol was regularly doubled in the post and probably recieved more defensive attention throughout the Finals series so I dont know what you mean by that "magic0320".

Bryant was rarely if ever doubled by Boston unless he drove into the midrange/painted area.

I dont care how "hard he worked" if he needs to work harder because he lacks talent that's his problem it doesn't make his performance/production better.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 04:13 AM
Gotta love these fans who can't stand Kobe becoming the 4th back-to-back Finals MVP in league history. Read 'em and weap, and move on. If you're going to present well rounded stastical analysis, cool. If not, go get some french-cries and wham-burgers because you're treading mud.

Facts :
LA only won a single game where Kobe outplayed Pau (G3 @ BOS)
Gasol was the best player in 4/7 Games
Gasol was much better in the two most critical games of the series G6 and G7 (Where he bailed out Kobe and the rest of the Lakers in the Final 3 minutes scoring 8 points and coming up with a clutch block on pierce.

Fact - Gasol FMVP.

Lets look at how both Gasol and Kobe performed in the 4 Laker Wins (2010 Finalz)

Kobe
26.5 PPG
10 RPG
3.75 APG
37%FG
2 SPG

Gasol
19 PPG
14 RPG (6 Offensive Rebounds Per Game)
5 APG
46%FG
2.5 BPG

It would seem that I have a solid logical base to stand on and a strong statistical analysis to support my argument Bruno.

He may have won the league FMVP but in most of the real basketball fans minds and in the future the fans who rewatch the games and check the stats will know Gasol was robbed of the Award that year.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 04:24 AM
look kid..kobe is almost FINISH pau is the main reason along with the refs and artist for the laker victory in 2010 even tho tobe played well in playoffs rdz but what happen to the lakers in 2011 playoffs when PAU decide not to play the whole damn team fell apart and what did ratface TObe CRYant DO....NOTHING!!! but get shut down by oldman jason kidd kobe didnt look A BLK MAMBA ARE ANY THOSES SELF GIVEN BOGUS NAMES after being MVP the previous yr

Kobe does seem to be declining but he may be primed for a comeback season now thats he has gotten some rest.

Pau and Kobe were probably about equal in overall Impact/Value to the Lakers in the 2010 playoffs.
Kobe really saved them against PHX and Pau really saved them against the Celtics.

magic0320
09-29-2011, 05:55 AM
Gasol was regularly doubled in the post and probably recieved more defensive attention throughout the Finals series so I dont know what you mean by that "magic0320".

Bryant was rarely if ever doubled by Boston unless he drove into the midrange/painted area.

I dont care how "hard he worked" if he needs to work harder because he lacks talent that's his problem it doesn't make his performance/production better.

haha sure man whatever you say. and what's Andrew32 mean???? :facepalm:

I don't know what final you watched, but Gasol was almost never doubled, and Kobe was always double and tripled. :eyebrow:

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:01 AM
I will just assume you didnt watch any of the games if you think Gasol was never doubled.

He recieved more defensive attention then Kobe did in the 4 Laker wins and partly because of that was able to pass out of those double teams and create for his teammates. (He averaged 5APG in the 4 LA Wins (Most on the team).

Andrew32 = Andrew is my name and 32 is the Jersey # of my Fav Player.

mekedubs
09-29-2011, 09:25 AM
Bottom line.... PAU PLAYS OFF OF KOBE!!! You put Pau in games where he has to be the man and produce, it's very, VERY, difficult for him to do.... With all these stats the people are posting about Pau and win shares, etc... Look at the games!! Watch them and see why and how Pau got the nickname "Gasoft"... He plays great when Kobes in the games and terrible when he's not, period.

MTar786
09-29-2011, 10:54 AM
i dont buy that gasol was better in the finals than kobe. that is dumb IMO.

anyway, to stay on topic. no, wade will never win mvp.. not because he isnt good enough.. just because of circumstance. its like kobe winning mvp from 2000-04.. wasnt gonna happen as long as shaq was also on that team.

C-Style
09-29-2011, 12:04 PM
IMO Kobe played better in games 1,3,4,5,6...game 2 is is debatable. If u wanna argue that Gasol had better games thats fine it will make some nice debates in some cases...But the question is this, who is more to blame for the loses, Kobe or Gasol??? Answer is simple Gasol. Theres no debating that! he let Kobe down. He got raped in game 5 by big baby when the Lakers could have easily won that game and it all happened when Bynum wasnt able patch Gasols defensive issues.

C-Style
09-29-2011, 12:12 PM
Also, Kobe avearged 46% during the playoffs, 41% in the Finals, thats a 5% drop off....Gasol was averaging 54% in the playoffs and 48% in the finals, thats a 6% drop off. The stat that stood out to me more witch takes me back to my 1st point. Is on the road Kobes fg percenatage dropped 4% and Gasols dropped 10%

C-Style
09-29-2011, 12:17 PM
As far as game 7 goes, I give Gasol a slight edge over kobe but he wasnt that much better to win the award over Kobe, who before game 7 was averaging 46% in the finals. Besides Gasol wasnt the mvp of that game so no need to crown him that award. The mvp for that game was Artest. And as far as im concerned theres no trophy for the 2nd best. Had Gasol been the MVP that game OP might have had a better case

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 12:47 PM
Gasol had much better production in G7 and was more Clutch how on earth was he not better then Kobe in that game?

He was the the best defender for LA in the entire playoffs and his shotblocking and defensive anchoring was Key for LA to contend (he also had help from Bynum and Odom in that case)
I dont see why your saying his defense was an issue especially considering how mediocre Kobe was defensively that entire series he could barely do anything on that end except sag off Rondo and try to pick a few steals.

@Meke : Pau does not play off of Kobe, he may have played on bad teams before with no super stars but he has always proved before his time with the Lakers can he can produce at a high level at "the man" The Lakers run the Triangle offense and a big part of that offense is creating an easy line of sight to feed the post and let the bigmen create offensively.

Kobe doesn't always run the offense and sometimes will ISO but I'd say 75%+ of the time they ran the triangle and let Gasol create downlow for himself and others, in the 4 Laker wins this was clearly the winning strategy with Gasol almost matching Kobe;s production and clearly being the playmaker averaging 5APG. Kobe does not make the game easier for Gasol except being another offensive threat and keeping defenses honest (the exact same thing Gasol does for Kobe) and Kobe does not deserve any Credit for Pau's excellent play.

A big reason Gasol's production (offensively) dipped on the Road was because Kobe was over iso'ing and not giving him enough touches and it was no surprize they lost those games with Kobe failing to involve his supporting cast enough and trying to take over while letting his teammates watch.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 12:51 PM
BTW Gasol was "Clearly" better in G2 and personally I think he was better in G1 also.

G2 :
Gasol : 25/8/3 - 6 Blocks 70%FG 11-13%FT
Kobe : 21/5/6 - 5 Turnovers 40%FG

G1 :
Gasol : 23/14/3 - 8 0ffensive Rebounds - 3 Blocks - 58%FG
Kobe : 30/6/6 - 45%FG

Cmon.. Kobe was good in that game but Gasol was clearly better when you factor in Defense/Offensive Rebounding and of course shooting efficiency (yes it matters).

Then you Factor in that he was much better in G6 and G7 the two most important games of the series and its pretty obvious why he deserved Finals MVP.

+ Being Mr. Clutch in the Final 3 Minutes of G7... Cmon.. Give the Dude his Credit.

Kobe got the award since he is the biggest name on his team and the player who Stern wanted the award given to and its as simple at that, the real Finals MVP was Gasol.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 01:00 PM
Why is it Dumb?

He was clearly better in Games 1 and 2 and in Games 6 and 7 which were the two most important games in the series and he was Mr. Clutch in the Finals 3 Minutes of Game 7 while Kobe basically did nothing.

Kobe may be the GOAT but its stupid to just give him Credit based on the name that adorns the back of his Jersey, Gasol was clearly the better/best player in the 2010 Finalz.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:26 PM
Kobe
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
PER: 26.3

Gasol
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5

Kobe got the award because he was the best player

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:31 PM
Why is it Dumb?

He was clearly better in Games 1 and 2 and in Games 6 and 7 which were the two most important games in the series and he was Mr. Clutch in the Finals 3 Minutes of Game 7 while Kobe basically did nothing.

Kobe may be the GOAT but its stupid to just give him Credit based on the name that adorns the back of his Jersey, Gasol was clearly the better/best player in the 2010 Finalz.



Kobe
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
PER: 26.3

Gasol
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5

clearly better...

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 01:37 PM
Kobe
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists : 27 ||| Turnovers 27
FG% = 40% (66-163)

Gasol
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6 (5 0ffensive Rebounds Per Game)
Blocks per game: 2.6
Assists : 26 ||| Turnovers 13
FG% = 48% (43 of 90)


Gasol 2010 FMVP.

Not to mention the Fact he was "clearly better" in 4/7 Games and in 3/4 Games LA Won.

And the Fact that he was "Mr. Clutch" in the Final 3 Minutes of G7 in a 1-2 Possession Game.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Kobe
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists : 27 ||| Turnovers 27
FG% = 40% (66-163)

Gasol
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6 (5 0ffensive Rebounds Per Game)
Blocks per game: 2.6
Assists : 26 ||| Turnovers 13
FG% = 48% (43 of 90)


Gasol 2010 FMVP.

Not to mention the Fact he was "clearly better" in 4/7 Games and in 3/4 Games LA Won.

And the Fact that he was "Mr. Clutch" in the Final 3 Minutes of G7 in a 1-2 Possession Game.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Kobe
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
PER: 26.3

Gasol
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5

and he won the award, lol

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:45 PM
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1106/nba-finals-mvp/images/kobe.2010-0.jpg

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:50 PM
gasol 2010 fmvp.

Not to mention the fact he was "clearly better" in 4/7 games and in 3/4 games la won.

And the fact that he was "mr. Clutch" in the final 3 minutes of g7 in a 1-2 possession game.

29/8/4 > 19/12/4

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 01:50 PM
Gasol was better offensively and defensively.

He was better then Kobe in 3/4 Games LA Won.

He was better in the Final Two games of the series and was the Closer for LA in G7.

Kobe Hi-Jacked the offense on the road and got outplayed by Pierce in 2/3 Road Games they lost.

Lets compare Kobe/Gasol offensively in the 4 Games they Won.

Gasol :
19 PPG
5 Assists Per Game
6 0ffensive Rebounds Per Game
46% FG

Kobe :
26.5 PPG
3.75 Assists Per Game
37% FG

Gasol >>> Kobe.

Its not even close.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 01:52 PM
On the Road (@ Boston) 3 games

Kobe
33.3 PPG
6.3 RPG
3.3 APG
42.3%FG

Gasol
15.3 PPG
9.3 PPG
2.3 APG
44.4%FG

lol

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 01:57 PM
Kobe Hi-Jacks the offense and puts up the best stats in Games 4,5.
Pierce outplays Kobe in G4 and they are about Equal in G5.
Gasol thoroughly outplays Garnett in G4 and is about Equal to him in G5.

Gasol/Kobe terrible in G3 but they win somehow (Boston played terribly)

LA loses 2/2 where Kobe is the best player and Kobe fails to outplay Pierce both games.

Argument Over.

Seem's Gasol was actually better on the road since he actually managed to outplay KG in 1/2 games they lost and both stunk terribly in the First Road Game (G3) where they won.

Either way LA held HCA so playing better on the Road holds practically no Value and since LA lost it just reinforces that.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:01 PM
Superior Defense/Efficiency/Play Making > Volume/Ineffecient Scoring with only a tiny edge in the 4 Games LA won.

19/5APG/6ORB 46%FG >>>>> 26.5/3.75 37%FG

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:03 PM
I think the Moron is the person who thinks playing slightly better on the Road in a losing effort is superior to playing significantly better at Home and leading your team to victory and eventually a championship while playing better in the Final 2 Games being the Closer for your team, being the main defensive anchor for your team and being the best player on the court in 3/4 of your teams victorys.

But I guess your right.. what I'm saying is completely illogical. :facepalm:

C-Style
09-29-2011, 02:04 PM
Bottom line is that Gasol Sucked on the road...he cost us 2 road games. OP is just trolling.... Kobe deserved the trophy. had kobe played that bad on the road and still won the award haters would be trippin hard. Also im lmao at the thought that Gasol was better defensivly than Kobe was in that series, that alone discredits the OP

Hellcrooner
09-29-2011, 02:06 PM
i would suggest people WATCHED game 7 again ( or any of the others where gasol was in one of the games very near to a triple double)

then watch in game 7 in the 4th quarter his DEFENSE; the offensive foul on rasheed that he managed to get when the Celtics were gaining momentum.
the blocks.
the stops
and his scoring the last 3 minutes.

Clear cut Mvp? NO
DESERVING ENOUGH? YES.
Would a CO.MVP been fair ? COMPLETELY.

Im glad some people in the boards have eyes.

People should also wonder bout this.

Check Kobes stats in playoffs last 4 years, theyve been consistent.
Now check Paus.
08 He dissapears LOSE vs CELTICS
09 He makes it Great RING ( dont lose sight on how he Held Dwight)
10 He makes it great RING.
11 He disapears COMPLETELY, Lakers get harrashed 0-4 .

Hey dudes, maybe he is more important than Kobe fans want to recognise.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:09 PM
Gasol had two 13/13 type games on the Road and a 21/6 in G4 where he owned Garnett.

How is that sucking?

How about Kobe playing like Trash and costing LA Game 2?
How about Kobe shooting 6/24 in G7 and practically costing them the Series?

Gasol only got outplayed once on the road and that was G3 (The RGame they Won)

Gasol was better in 3/4 Games they won he was the MVP.. its pretty simple.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:17 PM
Also im lmao at the thought that Gasol was better defensivly than Kobe was in that series, that alone discredits the OP

I'm "lmao" at what a huge Kobe stan you are.

Gasol Anchored LA's defense with Bynum/Odom and was the teams lead shot blocker. He and Gasol controlled the Paint well and made it hard for the C's to score inside.

He and Bynum bailed out Kobe and Fisher so many times when they got blown past on defense (Rondo made Kobe look very slow)

Gasol was great defensively in the series.
Kobe was mediocre at best all he did was sag of Rondo heavily since he couldn't stay infront of him and try to grab a few steals in the lane.

lmao at you thinking Kobe's impact defensively was even 1/10th of Gasols.

Chacarron
09-29-2011, 02:17 PM
The league would have never given the 2010 Finals MVP award to someone other than Kobe Bryant. Not saying because someone else didn't deserve it rather since both Kobe and Gasol has their ups and downs during that 7-game series, the less controversial pick was Kobe. Imagine what would have happened had Gasol won the Finals MVP. To me it doesn't matter who won it because I was happy my Lakers won it all that year, that's all that should matter (to Lakers fans at least). Finals MVP is just another piece of metal to feed a player's ego.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Gasol is very important, hes the 2nd best player, and very valuable
im not trying to discredit gasol or anything like that, cause he was great, but come on now he was not better than kobe
its not like kobe just took lots of shots, he averaged 8 rebounds per game, 15 in G7
2.1 steals per game and his defense on rondo, and about the scoring kobe averaged 10 more ppg than gasol, 18 more ppg on the road and he had 10 4th quarter points in G7

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 02:21 PM
I'm "lmao" at what a huge Kobe stan you are.

Gasol Anchored LA's defense with Bynum/Odom and was the teams lead shot blocker. He and Gasol controlled the Paint well and made it hard for the C's to score inside.

He and Bynum bailed out Kobe and Fisher so many times when they got blown past on defense (Rondo made Kobe look very slow)

Gasol was great defensively in the series.
Kobe was mediocre at best all he did was sag of Rondo heavily since he couldn't stay infront of him and try to grab a few steals in the lane.

lmao at you thinking Kobe's impact defensively was even 1/10th of Gasols.

:laugh:
you do know that Rondo was their offense right? man your a moron

C-Style
09-29-2011, 02:22 PM
So Gasol didnt get owned in game 5??? Btw hellcrooner Gasol is a huge part of the Lakers success. His contributions to the team are 2nd to none. At the end of the day we are Laker fans and a Laker would have won the award at the end of the night. Thats all that matters! Everybody else is just mad that the Lakers won 16 championships and they hate the fact that Kobe the leader of the team won the award.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:23 PM
The league would have never given the 2010 Finals MVP award to someone other than Kobe Bryant. Not saying because someone else didn't deserve it rather since both Kobe and Gasol has their ups and downs during that 7-game series, the less controversial pick was Kobe. Imagine what would have happened had Gasol won the Finals MVP. To me it doesn't matter who won it because I was happy my Lakers won it all that year, that's all that should matter (to Lakers fans at least). Finals MVP is just another piece of metal to feed a player's ego.

Good Post.

I agree both had their ups and downs in the series but if you consider that Gasol was significantly better in 3/4 Games they won and his impact defensively and his Clutch play I think he really did deserve the Award.

Kobe was better offensively in the last 2 road games but he didn't do a good job involving his Cast and took too many ISO plays for himself.

Are you telling me Kobe deserves the Award for being slightly better in the two road games they lost and that I should give more weight to that then on Gasol being slightly to significantly better at home and in the Final two games of the series and leading his team to Victorys with Clutch play?

That just doesnt make sense to me. :clap:

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:27 PM
So Gasol didnt get owned in game 5??? Btw hellcrooner Gasol is a huge part of the Lakers success. His contributions to the team are 2nd to none. At the end of the day we are Laker fans and a Laker would have won the award at the end of the night. Thats all that matters! Everybody else is just mad that the Lakers won 16 championships and they hate the fact that Kobe the leader of the team won the award.

He may be the "Leader" but he wasn't the best player in that series.

Like I said before G5 is the only game you could "Blame on Gasol"

and no he didn't get "owned" he put up 12/12 on 5-11, KG put up 18/10 on 6-11
Gasol also had 7 offensive boards that game.

So yes KG imo had the better game but not significantly better and he certainly didn't "own" anyone.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 02:28 PM
Good Post.

I agree both had their ups and downs in the series but if you consider that Gasol was significantly better in 3/4 Games they won and his impact defensively and his Clutch play I think he really did deserve the Award.

Kobe was better offensively in the last 2 road games but he didn't do a good job involving his Cast and took too many ISO plays for himself.

Are you telling me Kobe deserves the Award for being slightly better in the two road games they lost and that I should give more weight to that then on Gasol being slightly to significantly better at home and in the Final two games of the series and leading his team to Victorys with Clutch play?

That just doesnt make sense to me. :clap:

lol slightly? lmao
gasol had a better game 2, thats the only game where gasol was clearly better
in game 6 it was a blowout and they were pretty equal
game 7 seemed equal to me 19/18 to 24/15, 9 and 10 4th quarter points

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Gasol probably could have played better in G5 but he wasnt bad and he barely got outplayed by KG.

I'd say the biggest issue for LA in G5 was their perimeter defense.

Rondo destroyed Kobe and put up 18/8/5 on 75%TS
Pierce also went for 27 on 57%FG

When Kobe is playing Me-First type ball and shooting 27+ shots and almost 3 times the amount of shots every other player gets then yea obviously he is gonna have the best Volume.

However the games where they won he took less shots and just let the offense run naturally.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Gasol probably could have played better in G5 but he wasnt bad and he barely got outplayed by KG.

I'd say the biggest issue for LA in G5 was their perimeter defense.

Rondo destroyed Kobe and put up 18/8/5 on 75%TS
Pierce also went for 27 on 57%FG

game 5 wasnt even close comparing kobe and gasol

kobe - 38/5/4
gasol - 12/12/0

series was tied 2-2, his sub-par performance cost them HCA(for a brief time)

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:38 PM
game 5 wasnt even close comparing kobe and gasol

kobe - 38/5/4
gasol - 12/12/0

series was tied 2-2, his sub-par performance cost them HCA(for a brief time)

I'd say Kobe dominating the offense that game and not letting the triangle run combined with him playing zero defense and getting destroyed by Rondo is the main reason they lost.

Gasol did not have a great game but he also didn't get destroyed by his defensive assignment and he barely took 1/3rd the amount of shot attempts Kobe took.

Hard to score consistently in a game where you get so few attempts and one player has the ball in his hand 90% of the time.

but yea lets just blame that on Gasol.

knightstemplar
09-29-2011, 02:40 PM
I'd say Kobe dominating the offense that game and not letting the triangle run combined with him playing zero defense and getting destroyed by Rondo is the main reason they lost.

Gasol did not have an great game he didn't get destroyed by his defensive assignment and he barely took 1/3rd the amount of shot attempts Kobe took.

Hard to score consistently in a game where you get so few attempts and one player has the ball in his hand 90% of the time.

but yea lets just blame that on Gasol.

:facepalm:
kobe is the reason why they were even in that game
how can you blame kobe in that game :facepalm:

Chacarron
09-29-2011, 02:41 PM
Good Post.

I agree both had their ups and downs in the series but if you consider that Gasol was significantly better in 3/4 Games they won and his impact defensively and his Clutch play I think he really did deserve the Award.

Kobe was better offensively in the last 2 road games but he didn't do a good job involving his Cast and took too many ISO plays for himself.

Are you telling me Kobe deserves the Award for being slightly better in the two road games they lost and that I should give more weight to that then on Gasol being slightly to significantly better at home and in the Final two games of the series and leading his team to Victorys with Clutch play?

That just doesnt make sense to me. :clap:

I think Kobe got the award because he is Kobe Bryant. I don't care who wins the award, my opinion is that the league felt complied to give the award to Kobe because he is the face of the franchise and neither Gasol nor Kobe outplayed the other significantly.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:42 PM
:facepalm:
kobe is the reason why they were even in that game
how can you blame kobe in that game :facepalm:

His hot scoring may have kept them in the game, but his horrible defense and failure to run the offense cost them the game.

Understand?

Yes if he also shot poorly they game they would have been blown out horribly but he was still the main reason they lost.

In all the games they won Kobe did not have such a ridiculous amount of shot attempts compared to Gasol and in the games LA was playing well in and dominating/winning Gasol was getting close to the attempts that Kobe was and he was the main facilitator.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:44 PM
I think Kobe got the award because he is Kobe Bryant. I don't care who wins the award, my opinion is that the league felt complied to give the award to Kobe because he is the face of the franchise and neither Gasol nor Kobe outplayed the other significantly.

The bolded part is debatable I suppose.

I agree they gave it to him "mainly" because he is the face of the franchise and not because his performances deserved it.

I personally have a problem with that, I think its wrong.

The best player in the Finals should win that Award not the player D.Stern wants to give it to.

Chacarron
09-29-2011, 02:48 PM
The bolded part is debatable I suppose.

I agree they gave it to him "mainly" because he is the face of the franchise and not because his performances deserved it.

I personally have a problem with that, I think its wrong.

The best player in the Finals should win that Award not the player D.Stern wants to give it to.

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I can see why you feel this way.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 02:50 PM
Well everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I can see why you feel this way.

You know, I would have been happy if they had given both Kobe/Gasol CO-MVP's.

That way atleast Gasol would get acknolwedged for his play in the series.

Now I feel this Award further underrates and invalidates Gasol while simultaneously overrating Kobe.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 04:53 PM
i would suggest people WATCHED game 7 again ( or any of the others where gasol was in one of the games very near to a triple double)

then watch in game 7 in the 4th quarter his DEFENSE; the offensive foul on rasheed that he managed to get when the Celtics were gaining momentum.
the blocks.
the stops
and his scoring the last 3 minutes.

Clear cut Mvp? NO
DESERVING ENOUGH? YES.
Would a CO.MVP been fair ? COMPLETELY.

I can get behind that. ^

Laker fans high on Kobe Bryant should be able to get behind a sentiment like that. After all, it was only nine years earlier when Kobe topped Shaq in playoff win-shares during the epic 15-1 domination of the 2001 playoffs, while Shaq walked away with Finals MVP. 2010 was no different, as Pau topped Bryant in win-shares. In both scenarios one player walked away with a lot more credit, while the others contributions were over-looked and down-played.

IMO the award was given to the more deserving player on both occasions, but it's not right for each respected "#2" to be overlooked like they have been.


Im glad some people in the boards have eyes.

People should also wonder bout this.

Check Kobes stats in playoffs last 4 years, theyve been consistent.
Now check Paus.
08 He dissapears LOSE vs CELTICS
09 He makes it Great RING ( dont lose sight on how he Held Dwight)
10 He makes it great RING.
11 He disapears COMPLETELY, Lakers get harrashed 0-4 .

Hey dudes, maybe he is more important than Kobe fans want to recognise.

Pau's extremely important, that's why he got hammered in the press for playing like a roll player in the 2011 playoffs.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 04:55 PM
For those who are wondering, I merged several posts regarding the 2010 Finals MVP from the Dwayne Wade MVP thread, into this thread. Keep the 2010 Finals MVP discussion in this thread, thanks.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 05:35 PM
Laker fans high on Kobe Bryant should be able to get behind a sentiment like that. After all, it was only nine years earlier when Kobe topped Shaq in playoff win-shares during the epic 15-1 domination of the 2001 playoffs, while Shaq walked away with Finals MVP. 2010 was no different, as Pau topped Bryant in win-shares. In both scenarios one player walked away with a lot more credit, while the others contributions were over-looked and down-played.

IMO the award was given to the more deserving player on both occasions, but it's not right for each respected "#2" to be overlooked like they have been.



Pau's extremely important, that's why he got hammered in the press for playing like a roll player in the 2011 playoffs.


Eh... I like the idea behind this post but I hate the comparison.

#1. Kobe had .1 more WShares in 01 PS basically identical.

#2. Shaq still had a sharp edge in overall production. (29 PER) > (25 PER)

#3. Finals MVP is based on the Finals series not the entire playoffs.

#4. Shaq was putting up a GOAT Top 10 Finalz performance against a DPOY in 01.
Kobe was decent in the Finalz but his performance wasn't even slightly comparable to Shaqs logically and especially statistically and his impact in that series wasn't even close. Shaq destroyed the Sixers spirit and had multiple games in that series with 30+ Points 20+ Rebounds and 5+ Assists/Blocks.

in 2010 you can make a strong argument for Gasol being better statistically and logically you cannot do that with 01 Shaq/Kobe its not even slightly comparable.

mekedubs
09-29-2011, 05:36 PM
Yes, yes, yes Pau is the 2nd best player on the Lakers... I see people discussing "Pau plays well in 2009 and 2010 the Lakers win, he plays bad in 2008 and 2011 they lose"... That's the problem YOU HAVE TO BRING IT EVERY NIGHT, ESPECIALLY IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!! Compare Kobe's 2001 playoff performance when he was the 2nd option to Pau's 2010 performance when he's the 2nd option and there are MAJOR, MAJOR differences!!!! Kobe, in 2001 and to this day, is a killer on the court!!! I'm talking about a close out game in Sac Town of 48pts and 16rebs... When, at all in the playoffs, did Pau carry the team?!? Putting the team on his back to destroy an opponent?!? Look at what Kobe averaged in the playoffs in 2001 and compare his numbers to Pau's 2010 performance...

But one thing that WS% can't compute is KILLER INSTINCT!!! Putting fear in the oppossing teams hearts when you step on the court... WS% can't tell you that either...

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 05:46 PM
What kind of sissys do you think play in the NBA? No one is afraid of Kobe and the Celtics certainly weren't afraid of him when they held him to 40% shooting over the course of the series.

Every player wants to win and the greats always play their hardest in the post season and especially the Finals, Kobe doesn't have some magical instinct that other players dont that's ********.

Yeah 01 Kobe > 2010 Gasol but that isn't what this thread is about.

Gasol took the team on his back and dominated against the Celtic's in 3/4 Games the Lakers won in the playoffs but those dont count because he doesn't have "Killer Instinct"?? Kobe didnt show up at home or in the Final 3 minutes of G7 and Gasol had to step up and win the Title for LA but that doesn't count?? that's not Clutchness/Killer instinct? What about that huge block on Pierce preventing the tie?

Kobe and Pau had about Equal production in the 2010 Playoffs and Gasol led the team in WShares by a big margin, he was better against OKC equally as dominant against the Jazz and better against the Celtics.

I have no issue saying he was the MVP of the playoffs and the Finals MVP.

If Kobe was better in the majority of the games they won in the Finals then I'd be happy to hand him the FMVP trophy but the facts are he wasn't.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 05:48 PM
Eh... I like the idea behind this post but I hate the comparison.

#1. Kobe had .1 more WShares in 01 PS basically identical.

#2. Shaq still had a sharp edge in overall production. (29 PER) > (25 PER)

#3. Finals MVP is based on the Finals series not the entire playoffs.

#4. Shaq was putting up a GOAT Top 10 Finalz performance against a DPOY in 01.
Kobe was decent in the Finalz but his performance wasn't even slightly comparable to Shaqs logically and especially statistically and his impact in that series wasn't even close. Shaq destroyed the Sixers spirit and had multiple games in that series with 30+ Points 20+ Rebounds and 5+ Assists/Blocks.

in 2010 you can make a strong argument for Gasol being better statistically and logically you cannot do that with 01 Shaq/Kobe its not even slightly comparable.

In 2001 Shaq led in PER, Bryant led in WS.
in 2010 Bryant led in PER, Gasol led in WS.

That's all I said. Nothing about that is inaccurate. Key point being that both #2 have been over-looked in the past. Regardless, the MVP went to the right player each time.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 05:56 PM
If Kobe was better in the majority of the games they won in the Finals then I'd be happy to hand him the FMVP trophy but the facts are he wasn't.

You distort the facts in regards to scoring efficiency because you never critique their TS% or FT efficiency. You choose to only throw out FG% because it supports your argument best. Present TS% and FT% and your argument gets a lot weaker.

Bryant topped Gasol in TS% in three games, Gasol topped Bryant in TS% in four games. This "massive gap in efficiency" that you use as the basis of your argument carries a lot less weight when you analyze TS%, the superior and more well rounded way to measure a players scoring efficiency. If you're building an argument regarding efficiency without accounting for FT's and thus TS%, I could care less. Present those other numbers.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:07 PM
Yea but Shaq had a significant edge in PER and they were essentially identical in WShares.

in 2010 Kobe/Gasol were basically identical in PER but Gasol had a significant edge in WShares.

in 2010 you can make a strong case that Gasols performance in the Finals was statistically and logically better then Kobe's especially when looked at in context of how the series actually progressed and which games were won etc.

In 2001 you cannot make a case that Kobe was more impactful in the Finals and the numbers aren't even remotely close.

Again I just think it was a terrible comparison, nothing personal Bruno.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:18 PM
You distort the facts in regards to scoring efficiency because you never critique their TS% or FT efficiency. You choose to only throw out FG% because it supports your argument best. Present TS% and FT% and your argument gets a lot weaker.

Bryant topped Gasol in TS% in three games, Gasol topped Bryant in TS% in four games. This "massive gap in efficiency" that you use as the basis of your argument carries a lot less weight when you analyze TS%, the superior and more well rounded way to measure a players scoring efficiency. If you're building an argument regarding efficiency without accounting for FT's and thus TS%, I could care less. Present those other numbers.

Gasol and Kobe both shot a similar amount of FT's in the LA wins and both shot a similar % + Kobe only made three 3pointers in those games so its not like that would drastically alter his effeciency.

Most of my arguments were about Gasol outplaying Kobe in the LA Wins.
It doesn't matter if Kobe was better on the road if it didn't lead to victorys.

Gasol was "dramatically" more efficient from the field/floor in the 4 LA Wins and if you use FG% EFG% or TS% it will still be crystal clear.

I didnt see the point of it see'ing how few 3pointers he made in those games and since they both shot a similar amount of FT's and on a similar %.

They were also fairly close in overall scoring Volume and Gasol had a massive edge in Defense/Rebounding and even Assists.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:22 PM
Gasol and Kobe both shot a similar amount of FT's in the LA wins and both shot a similar % + Kobe only made three 3pointers in those games so its not like that would drastically alter his effeciency.
.

No they didn't. thats why you need to look at their TS% and FT%. Gasol barley cracked 70% from the line on 60 attempts. Bryant was above 80%. You're correct that they shot a nearly identical number of FT's, your wrong to say that they shot a similar %. Gasols struggles from the line is why Bryant still had a higher TS% in three of the seven games, despites Gasols higher efficiency from the field.

As a fan of production and efficiency in close out games, Gasol shooting 7/13 from the line (54%) in game seven should matter to you. Especially when you keep referring to efficiency as the basis of your argument.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:26 PM
Yea Kobe shot better from the Line.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:31 PM
Bruno
In the 4 LA Wins 2010 Finalz.

FT Shooting
Gasol - 22-35
Kobe - 35-45

So Gasol shot 80% from the line in the 4 LA Wins and Kobe shot 77%?

wait hold on I messed up the numbers

What did they shoot for the whole series? As I recall Gasol was in the low 70% and Bryant was in the 80's.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:34 PM
I made a mistake, yes Bryant shot better from the line but Gasol's FT Shooting did not hamper the team in anyway.

in the 4 Wins he went 7-10, 5-6, 3-6. G7 he shot poorly 7-13 from the stripe but he more then made up for that with his overall production 19,18,4 and Clutch play (8 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assists, 1 epic block in Final 3 minutes.)

Anyway im so bored of arguing about this.

I just think Gasol was the better player in 3/4 games LA won and thus should have been named Final MVP. If your team wins and your the best player in the games you win then you are the best player.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:37 PM
Yea Kobe shot better from the Line.

And even Kobe struggled from the line in game seven @ 11-15 (73%). If Gasol and Bryant shot their average from the line in game seven, the Lakers win by ten plus points instead of four. That's a testimony to the series as a true defensive struggle; players were so beat up and focused on D their offense suffered across the board.

The Celtics shot 40% from the field in game seven, the Lakers shot 33%. We gotta take the team percentages and efficiency into context when looking at the % from individual players like Bryant and Gasol. Everyone struggled, defense and rebounding reigned supreme.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:38 PM
Anyway im so bored of arguing about this.
.

It's your thread :shrug:

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:39 PM
I agree and I think that makes Gasol's play in the Final minutes on both ends all the more impressive.

He scored 8 Points set up Kobe for an easy 2 points and blocked a pierce layup right at the basket.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:40 PM
I agree and I think that makes Gasol's play in the Final minutes on both ends all the more impressive.

He scored 8 Points set up Kobe for an easy 2 points and blocked a pierce layup right at the basket.

Final minutes? How about the whole game??

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:41 PM
It's your thread :shrug:

I know, but its frustrating when you make an argument and you think you back it up with strong logic and solid statistics and then you have to fight and argue with a number of "player fans" who refuse to admit or acknowledge that Gasol is capable of being the #1 next to 2010 Kobe.

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:42 PM
Final minutes? How about the whole game??

19,18,4 with 9 0ffensive Boards.. pretty damn good definitely the best player for LA in that game.

Why? do you think he had a bad game?

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:45 PM
Why? do you think he had a bad game?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Andrew32
09-29-2011, 06:46 PM
Is that a rhetorical question?

No, but I felt like you were implying something that maybe his game as a whole wasn't good or something?

And Kobe did a good job getting to the line at the beginning of the 4th that Game I consider that Clutch aswell.

However I dont think any Laker had a better game then Gasol in G7 especially the way he capped it off.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:51 PM
I know, but its frustrating when you make an argument and you think you back it up with strong logic and solid statistics and then you have to fight and argue with a number of "player fans" who refuse to admit or acknowledge that Gasol is capable of being the #1 next to 2010 Kobe.

From the very start of this thread I told you that any analysis in regards to scoring efficiency that didn't use TS% (taking FT% into account) was bias, and one-sided. You regurgitated the same FG% numbers for five pages worth of thread because you didn't want to address TS% (because if you did it would weaken your main point, the difference in their efficiency).

It was your choice to never get into a more detailed discussion of efficiency until five posts ago. Now, you're tired of arguing it. Coincidence?

LA doesn't go back to back without Pau. He was fantastic in 2009 and 2010. His contributions have been overlooked. But it's tough to acknowledge an argument in favor of Gasol "being capable of being the clear cut #1 option" considering his terrible 2011 playoff performance. Just as Bryants age/sustained injuries really begins to take it's toll, Gasol was nowhere to be found. You can look up his numbers from the 2011 playoffs yourself.

I have no serious gripe in people referring to Bryant as option 1a, and Gasol option 1b during the 2010 playoffs. Their production was that close. Like I said a while back, when it is that close, the award will go to the guy who is the team captain, and 15 year veteran of the team.

Bruno
09-29-2011, 06:51 PM
No, but I felt like you were implying something that maybe his game as a whole wasn't good or something?
Should have been more clear, I was implying the opposite.

Andrew32
09-30-2011, 06:17 AM
TS% for Gasol and Kobe in the 4 LA Wins.

G1 :
Gasol : .625
Kobe : .568

G3 :
Gasol : .477
Kobe : .446

G6:
Gasol : .511
Kobe : .589

G7 :
Gasol : .437
Kobe : .376

Alright Bruno, just for you I compared their TS% in the 4 LA Wins.

Gasol was more efficient in 3/4 games and better in games 1,6,7 both stunk it up in G3.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 06:18 PM
I just found Bryant and Gasols PER from the 2010 NBA Finals. Hollinger posted it in his "Greatest Finals Performances" article on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-21-30

Hollinger ranked Bryants 2010 Finals #24th all time, with Gasol right behind him at #26 (between them is KAJ's 1985 finals).

2010 NBA Finals PER:
Bryant- 26.3
Gasol- 25.5

Seems like PER suggests what we've been getting at since the start of this thread. They were practically equals throughout the series, and it went to Bryant essentially because of tenure, and his position as team captain. Co-finals MVP would have been really reasonable.

Quotes by Hollinger in the article:


24. KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS, 2010

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
PER: 26.3

Everyone remembers the 6-for-24 in Game 7, but what they all forget is how well Bryant played in the first six games of the series. That's why he won Finals MVP despite the stinker in the finale, and that's why he's so far up this list. Bryant averaged 28.6 points per game and took an impressive 60 free throws over the seven games. He also chipped in on the glass, yanking down eight boards a game -- more than any Celtic.

And while he shot poorly in the finale, he made a couple at the end to fuel the Lakers' comeback from a 13-point deficit in the second half. Meanwhile, he did plenty of damage early -- his 30-7-6 in the opener gave L.A. the early series lead.



26. PAU GASOL, LOS ANGELES, 2010

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5

The Lakers couldn't make a shot for most of Game 7 against Boston, but it didn't matter because Gasol was always there to clean it up. His 18 rebounds against Boston -- nine of them offensive -- allowed L.A. to overcome ice-cold 32.5 percent shooting and win the title anyway.

Maligned for his effort against Boston in 2008, Gasol was consistently excellent all series. He filled the stat sheet with 18.6 points, 11.6 rebounds, 3.7 assists and 2.6 blocks, an especially impressive performance given the low-scoring series. While Kobe Bryant won the Finals MVP, Gasol had a legitimate argument on the strength of his Game 7.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Thanks Bruno, I found that article and the information contained in it very interesting and fun to read.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Thanks Bruno, I found that article and the information contained in it very interesting and fun to read.

NP dude. I liked reading it a lot too. Although I think its interest how Hollinger doesn't rank them specifically to highest PER, descending.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 07:00 PM
I am reading it as we speak, i'll let you know what I think of his rankings in a few min.

Going back to the Gasol FMVP thing I still feel strongly that he deserved it but I am not surprised that overall their production was similar.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 07:09 PM
I am reading it as we speak, i'll let you know what I think of his rankings in a few min.

Going back to the Gasol FMVP thing I still feel strongly that he deserved it but I am not surprised that overall their production was similar.

Yeah, very similar. Edge Bryant.

Andrew32
10-02-2011, 07:19 PM
Still the edge is because of massive differences in production between the two in games 3 and 5.

I am not sure I can fault Gasol for his lowered production in those games considering how many possesions Bryant used.

in the 3 road games Gasol took 11,13,12 shot attempts.
in the 3 road games Kobe took 29,22,27 shot attempts.

infact in the one game Kobe took less shots (G4) Gasols production immedietly rose and he outplayed KG while posting 20+ points.

It seems that in the games they won Bryant took less shots and focused more on running the triangle and letting his teammates create while he focused more on rebounding and getting his points in between.

Bruno
10-02-2011, 07:26 PM
Still the edge is because of massive differences in production between the two in games 3 and 5.

I am not sure I can fault Gasol for his lowered production in those games considering how many possesions Bryant used.

in the 3 road games Gasol took 11,13,12 shot attempts.
in the 3 road games Kobe took 29,22,27 shot attempts.

infact in the one game Kobe took less shots (G4) Gasols production immedietly rose and he outplayed KG while posting 20+ points.

It seems that in the games they won Bryant took less shots and focused more on running the triangle and letting his teammates create while he focused more on rebounding and getting his points in between.

FGA doesn't correlate to touches. Gasol got the touches, but he caught it too far from the box, and wasn't able to do anything with those touches besides kick them back out. The whole series in on youtube