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NYman15
09-22-2011, 05:51 PM
"The NBA is expected to announce Friday it will postpone of the start of training camp and the opening slate of exhibition games after a negotiating session Thursday in New York between the players union director Billy Hunter and commissioner David Stern ended without a labor agreement or progress toward one soon, league sources said.

Stern, according to one source, told Hunter in Thursday's meeting the owners want to reduce the players' cut of basketball-related revenue (BRI) to a figure well below 50 percent. The players were guaranteed a minimum of 57 percent of BRI would be spent on salaries at the end of the last agreement.

The players union had offered to reduce their percentage to as much as 54 percent in negotiations to accommodate the owners' contention they lost $300 million last season, with the stipulation that a mechanism would be instituted to reward the players if future revenue increased.

The next negotiating session has not been scheduled, but the two sides agreed to contact each other with possible dates to reconvene next week, sources said. Whenever a deal is struck, it is expected to take at least two weeks to write out the complete terms and hash out the finer points.

Since the league's lockout began on July 1 with the expiration of the last agreement, a period for free agency and then a training camp, however truncated, also would be necessary before the regular season could begin. Most experts agree a minimum of four weeks is necessary to get it done, making the last week in September the absolute deadline for a deal to be struck before regular season games would have to be postponed or canceled.

Stern acknowledged Thursday that "the calendar is not our friend" when it comes to keeping the NBA season intact.

The league is at about the same point as when it postponed training camps in 1998, the only time it lost games to a work stoppage. The decision then came on Sept. 24 for camps that were set to begin Oct. 5. This year, players would be expected to report on Oct. 3.

The regular season is scheduled to open Nov. 1, with the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks hosting the Chicago Bulls in the first game. Though both sides have repeatedly said there is still time for a deal that would leave the regular season unaffected, neither would say so Thursday -- with union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers using virtually the same words as Stern about the coming weeks.

"I don't have control of that part of it, that would be more of a commissioner Stern, Adam Silver question in terms of logistics of starting the season on time," Fisher said. "I'm not going to try and make a guess on that one. The calendar's obviously not our friend, but we're not going to give up on the process because of the time."

Stern celebrated his 69th birthday Thursday but didn't appear in a festive mood after meeting for about five hours with leaders from the union. He was joined by Silver, the deputy commissioner, Spurs owner Peter Holt, who heads the labor relations committee, and NBA senior vice president and deputy general counsel Dan Rube. Fisher, Hunter, attorney Ron Klempner and economist Kevin Murphy represented the union.

Those small groups had good talks in recent weeks, but things went poorly last Tuesday when they were rejoined by their full committees. Hunter said after that meeting that players planned to make a "significant" financial concession, only to find that owners refused to agree to their condition of leaving the current salary cap system as is.

Fisher said he didn't believe Thursday's talks moved the situation beyond where it was last week.

Stern said the owners' labor relations committee would talk Friday, and both sides said they hoped to meet again next week.

"We'll keep working at it until we figure this thing out, but right now there isn't anything to really report or say," Fisher said. "I don't have any answers to any questions, other than we'll keep working until we find some solutions."

Ric Bucher is a senior NBA writer for ESPN The Magazine. Information from The Associated Press was used in this report."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/70053 ... tion-games

Big news is the owners want to cut the players cut of the BRI well below 50% Thats a big decline from last years 57% cut to the players. Seems like they're still far apart. Bad news

Gators123
09-22-2011, 05:53 PM
**** you NBA!

NYman15
09-22-2011, 06:00 PM
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As it turns out, both NBA and union dug in today and there was no progress, source tells Y! That was no acting post-meeting.
1 hour ago

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA

DoMeFavors
09-22-2011, 06:07 PM
its kind of funny they started to meet like a couple of weeks ago and its only 2 days a week every 2 weeks, doesnt seem like they want a deal.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-22-2011, 06:44 PM
its kind of funny they started to meet like a couple of weeks ago and its only 2 days a week every 2 weeks, doesnt seem like they want a deal.

That's what I'm sayin...

69centers
09-22-2011, 06:54 PM
Title is misleading. If it will be canceled Friday, you can't say today that "NBA postpones". You should put "NBA to postpone".

Da Knicks
09-22-2011, 06:57 PM
The season will start in dec or jan.

SteBO
09-23-2011, 11:13 AM
Posturing works both ways guys. We're still less than 2 weeks from training camp anyway, so I wouldn't be so doom and gloom just yet.

Mile High Champ
09-23-2011, 11:38 AM
Posturing works both ways guys. We're still less than 2 weeks from training camp anyway, so I wouldn't be so doom and gloom just yet.

You still think they will have an agreement reached this year? Wow, I don't share your optimism. I would say there is no chance this season is saved.

SteBO
09-23-2011, 11:46 AM
You still think they will have an agreement reached this year? Wow, I don't share your optimism. I would say there is no chance this season is saved.
I dunno, I just don't see a whole season getting canceled. Not after the success the NBA had last year as far as ratings are concerned and casual interest. This whole thing feels similar to 2010 free agency where there were conflicting reports everywhere and noone had a damn clue what they're talking. Until games get canceled for sure, I'm not buying the doom and gloom scenario. That's just me.

oak2455
09-23-2011, 12:03 PM
I dunno, I just don't see a whole season getting canceled. Not after the success the NBA had last year as far as ratings are concerned and casual interest. This whole thing feels similar to 2010 free agency where there were conflicting reports everywhere and noone had a damn clue what they're talking. Until games get canceled for sure, I'm not buying the doom and gloom scenario. That's just me.

I agree it would be tragic if the season was lost and a complete shame:mad:

ChaseHamels
09-23-2011, 02:45 PM
Shocker.

This season is NOT happening. The sooner people realize this the better off they will be.

likemystylez
09-23-2011, 09:47 PM
Shocker.

This season is NOT happening. The sooner people realize this the better off they will be.

why are the two sides even meeting then, if the season was a def no go, why not just postpone the meetings until next summer

MrfadeawayJB
09-23-2011, 10:39 PM
:cry: come on NBA, dont **** this up!!!

NYman15
09-23-2011, 11:01 PM
The owners, I think, are gonna hold firm. They aren't going to give in, in my opinion. I think its gonna be a long lockout. It doesn't seem like they're close at all. They want the players share of the BRI to be around 46%. Thats a huge decline from last year.

bmd1101
09-24-2011, 03:41 AM
The owners, I think, are gonna hold firm. They aren't going to give in, in my opinion. I think its gonna be a long lockout. It doesn't seem like they're close at all. They want the players share of the BRI to be around 46%. Thats a huge decline from last year.

They have already shown far too much weakness to hold a long lockout. If they do, the players know they aren't loosing all that much money. The longer this goes, the weaker the owners positions will be in many regards, not just loses. It would be a large mistake to allow the increased popularity of the NBA dwindle away from the owners. Besides the owners have already given in from 46% from what i've read their in the 50-51 range.

I think its more likely that we are seeing pieces of the last stand.

Korman12
09-24-2011, 04:15 AM
Tears. It just feels weird being so detached from game I love.

naps
09-24-2011, 04:46 AM
No way in the hell the entire season is washed away.They will have to come up with something by the end of this year. NBA can't afford to miss an entire season. It's a business after-all. People always find out alternative ways of entertainment. They can't risk the business that is based on public/fans.

Antipod
09-24-2011, 05:45 AM
Disappointed, i rly thought that this week meeting will basically seal the deal ... as things stand, we would be lucky is season started around dec/jan.

Anilyzer
09-24-2011, 06:03 AM
Two points:

1. If the weaker owners are seriously hemorraging money and upside down in their investment, then losing a whole season will hurt them even worse. True, they won't pay out any salaries, but they make no revenue, either. The very weakest owners will actually show a net gain, because they won't be losing the bucks they lose every year. But their longterm ROI on their gigantic investment in the NBA dream will devalue significantly. Maybe by a whole lot.

2. It seems that some owners (the profitable ones) will lose more from the strike, and other owners (the non-profitable ones) will lose less, or even save money. Then the question becomes, why are the weaker owners even staying in the game? Are they just trapped by their bad investment, with no way to cash out?

Even if a small "tea party" group of NBA owner/investors is trying to get a quick cash infusion by blackmailing the league for a greater share of big market revenues and a drastic levelling of salaries, they are also the ones (interestingly) that will crack soonest from slashing the ROI of their NBA investment. These guys get into the game, with their consortiums or whatever, and invest $600M or whatever, not so they can make $15M a year profit, but so they can sell the team someday for $1B or $2B in the far future.

But if the league loses ground, it is only the big franchises (Lakers, Knicks, Boston, San Antonio, etc) that will retain value. Marginal teams like Cleveland, OKC and the Clippers become increasingly worthless--just weak, no-name teams with no tradition or national fan base, in a weakened league.

As soon as the owners see the players won't just roll over, the stronger teams should immediately split off from the weaker teams and start pressuring for a deal.

likemystylez
09-24-2011, 10:07 AM
Disappointed, i rly thought that this week meeting will basically seal the deal ... as things stand, we would be lucky is season started around dec/jan.

so i dont understand that logic. You REALLY thought this week would seal a deal.... it didnt.... Now you think its unlikely we will have a season at all unless we get lucky and one starts in december or january?

I havent heard from anything that we took a huge step backwards this week, and that would be a huge step backwards. Infact after the horrible news coming out of last tuesday the 13th large meeting... It would have made more sense to think we wouldnt have a season until january at THAT point in time.

But after both sides were saying it didnt look like a season would start on time last week... you still "Really" thought this week would seal the deal? And now all indications are saying we are closer than last week (yet not reached a deal). The owners have moved off a hard cap, the economics seem to be within reach, and the owners supposidly have a revenue sharing plan.

Did the reality of them actually cancelling something somewhat meaningful in pre season games hit home? Or is there some reason that you think things are far worse this week than they were last week?

likemystylez
09-24-2011, 10:13 AM
Two points:

1. If the weaker owners are seriously hemorraging money and upside down in their investment, then losing a whole season will hurt them even worse. True, they won't pay out any salaries, but they make no revenue, either. The very weakest owners will actually show a net gain, because they won't be losing the bucks they lose every year. But their longterm ROI on their gigantic investment in the NBA dream will devalue significantly. Maybe by a whole lot.

2. It seems that some owners (the profitable ones) will lose more from the strike, and other owners (the non-profitable ones) will lose less, or even save money. Then the question becomes, why are the weaker owners even staying in the game? Are they just trapped by their bad investment, with no way to cash out?

Even if a small "tea party" group of NBA owner/investors is trying to get a quick cash infusion by blackmailing the league for a greater share of big market revenues and a drastic levelling of salaries, they are also the ones (interestingly) that will crack soonest from slashing the ROI of their NBA investment. These guys get into the game, with their consortiums or whatever, and invest $600M or whatever, not so they can make $15M a year profit, but so they can sell the team someday for $1B or $2B in the far future.

But if the league loses ground, it is only the big franchises (Lakers, Knicks, Boston, San Antonio, etc) that will retain value. Marginal teams like Cleveland, OKC and the Clippers become increasingly worthless--just weak, no-name teams with no tradition or national fan base, in a weakened league.

As soon as the owners see the players won't just roll over, the stronger teams should immediately split off from the weaker teams and start pressuring for a deal.

I think they believe the players will roll over. Considering the fact that the players have already given up atleast 5% of their salaries (over 100 million dollars) over the next 10 yrs (Could be close to 1.5 billion dollars)....while the owners on the other hand havent given up a dime in any piece of the negotiation.... well you could argue that the players already have rolled over... owners just want to shake them down a bit more.

the idea of waiting this out is not a great move. It really hurts the fans more than anybody else. The owners will win.... because they can suruvive a lot longer than these players... and their window to make money in this business is atleast 4 or 5 times as long as typical players... so sitting out is hurting players more on many levels (which is why the players are bending over during these negotiations)

Its unfortunate because the players didnt do anything wrong and they dont deserve to be taken advantage of... but the owners are so much more powerful, its inevitable.

MrPeytonManning
09-24-2011, 01:25 PM
There is no way this deal gets done anytime soon, because as everyone says, the owners have no incentive to make a deal. The party with the most money has all the power... so truthfully any lockout favors the owners, and the only way this is ending is a complete and total submission by the players. Kind of like how our own society works... employers have all the power.

likemystylez
09-24-2011, 09:51 PM
There is no way this deal gets done anytime soon, because as everyone says, the owners have no incentive to make a deal. The party with the most money has all the power... so truthfully any lockout favors the owners, and the only way this is ending is a complete and total submission by the players. Kind of like how our own society works... employers have all the power.

I think the more succesful owners are going to have to open their mouths and get this done, or threaten to go to the media and call out the lower market team owners who are being little pricks in these negotiations. They want the league to bail them out for not being responsible with their finances. The players dont have the power to beat the owners... but the jerry busses out there want to get this thing going. he doesnt want to waste one of kobe's few healthy seasons bickering so the timberwolves can make up for signing anthony tolliver and darko in the same month!!

Anilyzer
09-24-2011, 09:53 PM
There is no way this deal gets done anytime soon, because as everyone says, the owners have no incentive to make a deal. The party with the most money has all the power... so truthfully any lockout favors the owners, and the only way this is ending is a complete and total submission by the players. Kind of like how our own society works... employers have all the power.

There is some truth to that, but actually the OWNERS have much more to lose, and have much more interest in keeping the league in one piece and popular.

For instance, if Lebron and Wade void their contracts and walk away, everybody knows their great players and athletes. They can play one on one on pay per view, or sign fat contracts with top european teams. They can do a zillion different things. The media monopoly that once made the league unnassailable is gone... there is no media monopoly anymore. Worst possible case for a max player like Lebron is that he loses $100M in salary if he just walks away and never plays again.

Consider the league on the other hand. The aggregate value of all the NBA teams is probably >> 15 BILLION DOLLARS. At the very least. The whole league might be worth 30 Billion or even more on paper.

And, I don't know how the team finances work, but a lot of that money is probably owed to banks around the world, and financed through various deals and schemes.

If the league Fs up and loses a bunch of fans this year, rubs the players noses in it and makes the players look like uncool chumps, takes a bite out of the league's prestige and knocks down the top teams to be on a par with the Cleveland's and the Clippers, and opens up chances for euro and asian teams to compete... the league could lose a lot of value.

Let's say the value of ALL the NBA teams together is only 15 Billion. (and I think that is very conservative--basically just purchase prices, with zero ROI. Just money in.)

If the league devalues itself by just 5% during the strike, then the owners have collectively lost $750M dollars. If the owners go crazy and the players hold, and the season is cancelled, next summer rolls around and nobody knows what will happen, Kobe and Dwight and Lebron are playing overseas and forgot all about the NBA, the league could easily devalue itself by 3 billion dollars or more. That's not even counting all the lost revenue, media and marketing dollars, investment partnerships, etc.

Yeah... the weaker owners may see the lure of cheap labor as the key to save their crappy investments... but in reality, the owners have FAR, FAR more to lose, and the players have far, far more options.

I mean, forget the euro leagues and china. If this goes on for even a few months, there's gonna be agents and business people who start talking about creating a league from the ground up. They could do it cheaply, and just have a big partnership.

Think about it: Gibson might be upset that he loses $10M a year with the Cav's franchise... but his REAL insurmountable problem is that he is sunk into that team for $500M or more. If it was just the $10M... I mean that is probably his tequila budget, or some marketing dollars to promote some local rockband or something.

Their real problem is their longterm ROI, and if this gets ugly, it will get worse for them, fast.

likemystylez
09-24-2011, 10:20 PM
There is some truth to that, but actually the OWNERS have much more to lose, and have much more interest in keeping the league in one piece and popular.

For instance, if Lebron and Wade void their contracts and walk away, everybody knows their great players and athletes. They can play one on one on pay per view, or sign fat contracts with top european teams. They can do a zillion different things. The media monopoly that once made the league unnassailable is gone... there is no media monopoly anymore. Worst possible case for a max player like Lebron is that he loses $100M in salary if he just walks away and never plays again.

Consider the league on the other hand. The aggregate value of all the NBA teams is probably >> 15 BILLION DOLLARS. At the very least. The whole league might be worth 30 Billion or even more on paper.

And, I don't know how the team finances work, but a lot of that money is probably owed to banks around the world, and financed through various deals and schemes.

If the league Fs up and loses a bunch of fans this year, rubs the players noses in it and makes the players look like uncool chumps, takes a bite out of the league's prestige and knocks down the top teams to be on a par with the Cleveland's and the Clippers, and opens up chances for euro and asian teams to compete... the league could lose a lot of value.

Let's say the value of ALL the NBA teams together is only 15 Billion. (and I think that is very conservative--basically just purchase prices, with zero ROI. Just money in.)

If the league devalues itself by just 5% during the strike, then the owners have collectively lost $750M dollars. If the owners go crazy and the players hold, and the season is cancelled, next summer rolls around and nobody knows what will happen, Kobe and Dwight and Lebron are playing overseas and forgot all about the NBA, the league could easily devalue itself by 3 billion dollars or more. That's not even counting all the lost revenue, media and marketing dollars, investment partnerships, etc.

Yeah... the weaker owners may see the lure of cheap labor as the key to save their crappy investments... but in reality, the owners have FAR, FAR more to lose, and the players have far, far more options.

I mean, forget the euro leagues and china. If this goes on for even a few months, there's gonna be agents and business people who start talking about creating a league from the ground up. They could do it cheaply, and just have a big partnership.

Think about it: Gibson might be upset that he loses $10M a year with the Cav's franchise... but his REAL insurmountable problem is that he is sunk into that team for $500M or more. If it was just the $10M... I mean that is probably his tequila budget, or some marketing dollars to promote some local rockband or something.

Their real problem is their longterm ROI, and if this gets ugly, it will get worse for them, fast.

I kind of get what your saying, but a lot of players are not lebron james and d wade with the option to play 1 on 1 on pay pew view for millions. Infact there are probably less than 10% of players in the league that could walk away from basketball and survive on endorcements. There are far more guys in the league who are just trying to find a long term home on the end of some teams bench making less than 1 million a year.... and hoping they get picked up next the next season.

Ummm you say all the teams are worth atleast 15 billion combined (averaging 500 million)... you are aware the the highest a team has ever sold for in nba history is 450 million ... and that was the warriors last summer. Its estimated that the lakers are worth close to a billion... but I dont think the league average is 500 million. I think the bobcats are worth just under 300 as of a few yrs ago.

The owners believe the players will fold because the players have already moved soo much. Personally as a fan, i dont care as long as it is getting them closer to a deal.

NBA_Starter
09-24-2011, 10:46 PM
May as well just cancel the whole season

likemystylez
09-24-2011, 11:31 PM
May as well just cancel the whole season

might as well just slit our wrists then

SteBO
09-24-2011, 11:35 PM
As I've said, posturing can go both ways. If anything, the fact that 43 preseason games and training camp have been postponed means that they're still going to do some seriouos negotiating during that time period.

thenetslegend
09-24-2011, 11:40 PM
im guessing the season is here by january

3mikee_
09-24-2011, 11:42 PM
I totally believe that this season is going to get cancelled.. already cancelled my cable service because there's no point since there won't be anything to watch.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-25-2011, 12:09 AM
I've been prepared for no basketball at all for this season for a few months now.

knicks4life33
09-25-2011, 01:42 AM
sad to say but the season aint happining and which sucks is when the knicks are actually looking decent and now have 2 superstars this happins

likemystylez
09-25-2011, 01:47 AM
[QUOTE=knicks4life33;19270893]sad to say but the season aint happining and which sucks is when the knicks are actually looking decent and now have 2 superstars this happins[/QUOTE


Has something happened? all of a sudden everyone thinks there is no season? Have both sides decided not to talk ,,, or that they were all of a sudden very far apart? All the reports are saying that they are close and that there is currently a deal to be had that could hit any day now?

Was there something written in stone that a deal had to be made by this week? And even if it takes another 2 weeks? just cuz the season doesnt start on time.... doesnt mean its gonna take another 10 months to figure it out.

likemystylez
09-25-2011, 01:52 AM
if the seasonw as gonna be cancelled... why would they just delay training camp?? why not cancel it all together. They must think a deal is close.

thenetslegend
09-25-2011, 02:09 AM
if the seasonw as gonna be cancelled... why would they just delay training camp?? why not cancel it all together. They must think a deal is close.

i doubt a deal is close, well it depends on what you think close is.

likemystylez
09-25-2011, 02:14 AM
i doubt a deal is close, well it depends on what you think close is.

close enough for them to be speaking the same language in a room for 5 hours straight? I mean if they were so far apart...I dont know what they could be talking about in there

JEDean89
09-25-2011, 04:54 AM
my guess is that the league used the delay as a bargaining tactic. the closer players get to losing checks the more leverage is over them. from what i have read, the money isn't too far off and once that its agreed upon, the other two issues shouldn't be as bad. Owners will back off a hard cap if the split is right, they can then induce revenue sharing to increase the competition. i think it's important though to have a system where teams can spend when they want to win. if a team is in rebuilding mode it doesn't make since for them to spend as much as a contender. When they build up their draft picks though and are ready to spend in fa they can go over the cap for an increased luxory tax which then is used to share with the other teams.

likemystylez
09-25-2011, 10:27 AM
my guess is that the league used the delay as a bargaining tactic. the closer players get to losing checks the more leverage is over them. from what i have read, the money isn't too far off and once that its agreed upon, the other two issues shouldn't be as bad. Owners will back off a hard cap if the split is right, they can then induce revenue sharing to increase the competition. i think it's important though to have a system where teams can spend when they want to win. if a team is in rebuilding mode it doesn't make since for them to spend as much as a contender. When they build up their draft picks though and are ready to spend in fa they can go over the cap for an increased luxory tax which then is used to share with the other teams.


I completely agree with this, but the problem is... teams who are rebuilding (aka the kings last year) are being used as examples of teams that have half the payroll of teams who believe they are championship contenders with very few opportunities left (The lakers last year). Of course the lakers payroll should be higher. Their star player is 32 yrs old and ending the prime of his carreer.

I suppose the argument could be made that- it is harder for smaller market teams to retain their players long enough to succesfully rebuild, but I think that will likely be the problem no matter what profit split and revenue sharing plan is in place.

likemystylez
09-25-2011, 05:07 PM
You still think they will have an agreement reached this year? Wow, I don't share your optimism. I would say there is no chance this season is saved.

yeah .. right, next thing you're going to say is Lebron James doesnt enjoy the sport of basketball.

Anilyzer
09-26-2011, 03:48 AM
I kind of get what your saying, but a lot of players are not lebron james and d wade with the option to play 1 on 1 on pay pew view for millions. Infact there are probably less than 10% of players in the league that could walk away from basketball and survive on endorcements. There are far more guys in the league who are just trying to find a long term home on the end of some teams bench making less than 1 million a year.... and hoping they get picked up next the next season.

Ummm you say all the teams are worth atleast 15 billion combined (averaging 500 million)... you are aware the the highest a team has ever sold for in nba history is 450 million ... and that was the warriors last summer. Its estimated that the lakers are worth close to a billion... but I dont think the league average is 500 million. I think the bobcats are worth just under 300 as of a few yrs ago.

The owners believe the players will fold because the players have already moved soo much. Personally as a fan, i dont care as long as it is getting them closer to a deal.

good points.

btw the avg NBA team is worth $375M according to Forbes. But the league probably has a lot of extra value because of marketing tie ins. At the height of the Jordan era, it seemed like the NBA was almost the center of the US economy. And I'm sure the NBA has super large ambitions to make vast returns on their current investment. So taking a huge crap on the entire season will really mess them up.

This situation isn't actually into the REAL drama level yet, as far as I'm concerned. Nothing has happened, and what's been "unscheduled" or "cancelled" can be "re scheduled" just as easily. It's all verbal posturing.

I think once we pass into late October/ early november, if there is still no progress, then we can really start to see if they're serious. At this point it's just like drama about the Carmelo situation or something