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View Full Version : Would Prime Shaq have benefited more from playing with an All-NBA level point guard?



Bruno
09-22-2011, 05:21 PM
Shaq is well known for playing alongside some of the leagues most exciting slashers (Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade). Would prime Shaq had greater success playing alongside his eras greatest point-guards (Kidd, Nash, Parker, Billups ect), opposed to his eras greatest wings/slashers? What would have complimented his physical dominance greater, explosive wings or masters of facilitation and post-entry?

JordansBulls
09-22-2011, 05:27 PM
Penny Hardaway is the correct answer here.

Bruno
09-22-2011, 05:35 PM
Penny Hardaway is the correct answer here.

And you consider Penny to be a wing/slasher?

sep11ie
09-22-2011, 05:51 PM
How many rings does he have again?

Bruno
09-22-2011, 06:16 PM
How many rings does he have again?

Four championships over six appearances.

OGMarkWahlberg
09-22-2011, 08:34 PM
with Shaq's style of play I don't think it really matters too much

MTar786
09-22-2011, 10:47 PM
he needed a wing slasher.. penny was both (slaser and pg type).. but no where near the level as wade and kobe. Kobe's game complimented more than anyone elses. One of many reasons being kobe could spread te floor for shaq more than wade or penny could..

shaq with a nash or kidd wouldnt have been half as effective.. you dont need an unbelievable passer for shaq. just give him the ball and get out of his way.

ink
09-22-2011, 10:55 PM
with Shaq's style of play I don't think it really matters too much


he needed a wing slasher.. penny was both (slaser and pg type).. but no where near the level as wade and kobe. Kobe's game complimented more than anyone elses. One of many reasons being kobe could spread te floor for shaq more than wade or penny could..

shaq with a nash or kidd wouldnt have been half as effective.. you dont need an unbelievable passer for shaq. just give him the ball and get out of his way.

These. And personally that was why I didn't enjoy watching him play. Very dull team ball. Unbearably predictable. The relief was watching the wing player slash to the net. No need for a PG because the game was basically a two hander.

Pierzynski4Prez
09-22-2011, 11:02 PM
Agreed with the last few posts. The top PG's of his era would have probably looked to run a bit more than shaq would have wanted.

tredigs
09-22-2011, 11:25 PM
He played alongside - arguably - three of the top 10-15 talents to ever play in the league. All great co-stars to a guy like Shaq (obviously Wade was the lead and Lebron was the sole #1, but his help was as great as any player out there no matter where he went).

Would he have been great alongside elite points as well? Sure, who wouldn't? But only if they were 4th quarter finishers as well. He always needed that.

Andrew32
09-22-2011, 11:39 PM
Shaqs Dominance rarely waned he just needed one or two solid players to hit shots when teams swarmed him with 2-3+ defenders and that is what Kobe and Wade provided.

His early 90's ORL Casts were good for 1-2 years but then were taken apart and Shaq was still in his developing years at that point and went face first into Prime Hakeem/Jordan.

His Mid to Late 90's LA Casts were simply terrible and Van Exel/Kobe/Jones made it a yearly habit to play terribly in the post season and shoot in the low 30's%.

The problem with Shaq that most of his best years were wasted on teams simply not good enough to Contend(LA) or filled with Chokers (ORL).

We all saw how Graveyard Shaq performed with Nash when he was wayyy past his Prime its obvious he would have done great with a player like that especially in his Prime and ORL years where he was one of the quickest bigs of all time.

oh and I think DWade was the best fit for Shaq it scares me to imagine a Combo like 00Shaq + 09Wade not only would they be insanely dominant offensively and ridiculously efficient they would be a crazy defensive shot blocking combination.

gwrighter
09-22-2011, 11:44 PM
nah, he was never very good in the Pick & Roll.

PurpleJesus
09-22-2011, 11:50 PM
wouldnt have made a difference...during his prime, the offense was run through him...and PG (all nba or not) just tosses the ball to him in the post, and chances are he either gets two points, or gets fouled.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 12:11 AM
nah, he was never very good in the Pick & Roll.

no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1mOOee53Ak&feature=related

Chronz
09-23-2011, 12:31 AM
Good thread, Ive thought about what Shaq would look like alongside different players. Ive looked over his stats throughout his career and Shaqs scoring stats stand out oddly.


Shaqs Offensive RTG jumped from 108 in his Rookie Season to 120 the following year, this with his usage% increasing as well. Its not odd for players to improve leaps and bounds from their rookie season, and from what I can remember Shaq did his part in learning how to better read defenses but this is a MASSIVE improvement. Shaq was scoring at a rate of efficiency on par with MJ while accounting for nearly as many possessions. What makes it odd is that Shaq would never again approach these #'s of efficiency. Some of that is due to the increasing defensive dominance of the league but seeing the variance in Shaqs stats from 93-95 vs 95-97 leads me to believe something else played a role. Im thinking that something else was Penny Hardaway but I could be mistaken.

So heres a quick timeline

Shaqs Off. RTG
1993: 108 - Rookie Season

The Penny ERA
1994: 120 - Penny+Scott Skiles
1995: 118 - Penny + Increased Usage

Then in 96 something happens in Shaqs final season with Orlando, his Off.RTG plummets to 110. I remember him missing a bunch of games that year and Penny getting lots of MVP pub, it was the year Shaq started resenting the shared spotlight so injuries probably derailed the season.

Injury Riddled Seasons:
1996: 110 - Final Season in ORL, 54 Games Played
1997: 110 - First Season in LA, 51 Games Played

1998: 113 - 60 GP - Kobe up to 26 MPG

The Kobe ERA

1999: 115 - Lockout hurts league wide efficiency, Shaq improves (Kobe up to 38MPG)
2000: 115 - Shaq runs off his most dominant stretch ever
2001: 114
2002: 116
2003: 117

2004: 109 - Shaq gets 2 more HOFers and gets fatter, decline apparent

D-Wade Era
2005: 111 - Shaq reverses decline, came to camp at 320
2006: 108 - Shaq bulks up again, final championship won

The Decline?
2007: 105
Nash Era
2008: 101
2009: 117 - First Full Season with Nash, returns to All-Star

The Bron Era:
2010: 104 - Monster Decline

The Green Era:
2011: 111 - Crazy efficient for a 38 year old




In each stop it seemed as if a new dominant teammate reinvigorated his game. When Penny arrived he thrived, as Kobe became more involved with the offense he became more efficient, going from LA to Miami motivated him to get into shape but he also got to play with a dynamic playmaker in Wade. Nash was able to revive an old beast, Brons Cavs couldnt but the C's were able to provide Shaq a role to dominate.

I dont know which jump is more impressive but I think Shaq could play with a guy like Rondo, Nash, Kidd just fine.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Shaq was the type of player that made life much easier on his supporting cast and made them better. Nash with the freedom provided by Prime Shaq would be a pretty dangerous offensive threat and he would certainly enjoy the screens set by such a giant man.

@Chronz
One thing I notice about Shaq in 94 and 95 is that he was scoring at very high Volume (just under 30ppg) and was doing it very effeciently. He was amazing both years and his 95 season was (imo) one of the GOAT Center seasons despite his "Team" getting swept in the Finals although I hardly think its fair to blame that failure on him who produced like a GOAT in that series.

in that 120 ORTG 94 Season he shot over 60% from the Field and also it was the 3rd best season for him when it came to FT% that together pushed his TS% over 60%. its no coincidence that in 03 a year where his ORTG again spiked he also set his 2nd highest mark ever in effeciency (94 was his best) due to him shooting his FT's at a very abnormally high rate 64+% for the season.

His FT% really brought down things like his TS and ORTG if he shot 70+% from the Line he would probably have set records for both in this generation.

Also in 94 he was scoring 30ppg while his 2nd highest scorer was rookie penny at 15ppg.

KingPosey
09-23-2011, 12:51 AM
Shaq was in his prime as far as Im concerned when he entered the league, and played with an amazing PG, and he benefitted from it.

But what is your question? Would he have benefitted more playing with a PG than Kobe? I dont know what more he could have done. Or do you mean if there was another PG on LA while he was there with Kobe? Because the answer is yes. of course.

KingPosey
09-23-2011, 12:53 AM
nah, he was never very good in the Pick & Roll.

lol you are joking right? He used to dunk on my Sac team's faces off the pick n roll in embarrassing fashion quite often.

kblo247
09-23-2011, 02:09 AM
No.

Shaq wouldn't have been better off with an all NBA PG because he refused to play with one. Van Exel was an all-star PG who he got traded away, but the deal he got traded for wasn't the originally planned deal. Jerry West has said in the past that he had a Kidd for Van Exel deal all but done and Shaq went to Buss and the front office and blocked it. He didn't want to play with him or share his team.

Think about it for a second he didn't want Kidd with Kobe, Jones, Horry, Fisher, Fox, Campbell, and himself.

Shaq even though he ultimately beefed with every star perimeter player he played with in Penny, Wade, and Kobe just preferred having a dominant wing player who would facilitate the offense and score while also letting him facilitate and score most of the time. He wasn't a fan of things being dictated to him and just being the finisher.

He didn't like when Van Exel tried it even though he was an all star . He didn't like when Steve Nash did it, so he tried to have the offense restructured around him and ended up having oneof the better seasons of his last few years at the expense of the Suns, Nash, and winning. He even went as far as to say after he was traded to Cleveland that Kobe was the better playmaker than the quidesentail point guard in Nash for him.

Shaqs talent may have thrived with one, but his ego would never allow him to be part of a team especially when he was younger where he wasn't getting to create for himself and others over simply finishing like a Nash or Kidd in their prime would have done for him.

Andrew32
09-23-2011, 08:48 AM
What are you smoking?

Shaq demanded the Suns restructure their offense... what??

lmao

The only player Shaq ever had a serious beef with in his Prime/Decent years 93-06 was Kobe due to his monstrous Ego and his attempts to change a Championship formula just so he could hog more of the spotlight.

Nash would give his 2nd mother to play with a player like Prime Shaq and he is one of the most unselfish players ever so is Kidd you think Shaq is gonna have issues with them?? jeezuz.

Van Exel is hardly a great PG, he would routinely (literally every year) dissapear in the playoffs and shoot 30% from the field and his assists and all his numbers would tank to Adam Morrison like numbers.
I cant blame Shaq for wanting him out if he did the dude was plain terrible in the late 90's in the playoffs and was a huge detriment to the team. The only semi-decent player the mid to late 90's LA squad had was Eddie Jones and even he was very inconsistent and certainly far from a spectacular performer outside of maybe one year.

gwrighter
09-23-2011, 09:16 AM
lol you are joking right? He used to dunk on my Sac team's faces off the pick n roll in embarrassing fashion quite often.

I would beg to argue that he was more useful in isolation situations in the post because of the consistent double teams he would draw opening things up for his team, & later in his career he was not mobile enough. Being the Roll guy takes a lot of energy.

Chronz
09-23-2011, 12:11 PM
No.

Shaq wouldn't have been better off with an all NBA PG because he refused to play with one. Van Exel was an all-star PG who he got traded away, but the deal he got traded for wasn't the originally planned deal. Jerry West has said in the past that he had a Kidd for Van Exel deal all but done and Shaq went to Buss and the front office and blocked it. He didn't want to play with him or share his team.
Ive never heard that, got any proof?


He didn't like when Van Exel tried it even though he was an all star .
I can see what your saying, Shaq didnt like setting picks if he felt he wasnt getting the ball enough.


He didn't like when Steve Nash did it, so he tried to have the offense restructured around him and ended up having oneof the better seasons of his last few years at the expense of the Suns, Nash, and winning.
That was Porter's doing. Once he was gone, the Suns started running and Shaq looked even better. Had they never tried to emulate the Spurs and Amare never gotten injured the Suns would have been as good as they usually are.

RaiderLakersA's
09-23-2011, 01:11 PM
Shaq is well known for playing alongside some of the leagues most exciting slashers (Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade). Would prime Shaq had greater success playing alongside his eras greatest point-guards (Kidd, Nash, Parker, Billups ect), opposed to his eras greatest wings/slashers? What would have complimented his physical dominance greater, explosive wings or masters of facilitation and post-entry?

Yes... and he would not have won a single NBA championship, if he had been paired up with a top 5 point guard.

Or put another way, imagine if Kobe or D. Wade played for the Spurs with Duncan.

OGMarkWahlberg
09-23-2011, 01:16 PM
Good thread, Ive thought about what Shaq would look like alongside different players. Ive looked over his stats throughout his career and Shaqs scoring stats stand out oddly.


Shaqs Offensive RTG jumped from 108 in his Rookie Season to 120 the following year, this with his usage% increasing as well. Its not odd for players to improve leaps and bounds from their rookie season, and from what I can remember Shaq did his part in learning how to better read defenses but this is a MASSIVE improvement. Shaq was scoring at a rate of efficiency on par with MJ while accounting for nearly as many possessions. What makes it odd is that Shaq would never again approach these #'s of efficiency. Some of that is due to the increasing defensive dominance of the league but seeing the variance in Shaqs stats from 93-95 vs 95-97 leads me to believe something else played a role. Im thinking that something else was Penny Hardaway but I could be mistaken.

So heres a quick timeline

Shaqs Off. RTG
1993: 108 - Rookie Season

The Penny ERA
1994: 120 - Penny+Scott Skiles
1995: 118 - Penny + Increased Usage

Then in 96 something happens in Shaqs final season with Orlando, his Off.RTG plummets to 110. I remember him missing a bunch of games that year and Penny getting lots of MVP pub, it was the year Shaq started resenting the shared spotlight so injuries probably derailed the season.

Injury Riddled Seasons:
1996: 110 - Final Season in ORL, 54 Games Played
1997: 110 - First Season in LA, 51 Games Played

1998: 113 - 60 GP - Kobe up to 26 MPG

The Kobe ERA

1999: 115 - Lockout hurts league wide efficiency, Shaq improves (Kobe up to 38MPG)
2000: 115 - Shaq runs off his most dominant stretch ever
2001: 114
2002: 116
2003: 117

2004: 109 - Shaq gets 2 more HOFers and gets fatter, decline apparent

D-Wade Era
2005: 111 - Shaq reverses decline, came to camp at 320
2006: 108 - Shaq bulks up again, final championship won

The Decline?
2007: 105
Nash Era
2008: 101
2009: 117 - First Full Season with Nash, returns to All-Star

The Bron Era:
2010: 104 - Monster Decline

The Green Era:
2011: 111 - Crazy efficient for a 38 year old




In each stop it seemed as if a new dominant teammate reinvigorated his game. When Penny arrived he thrived, as Kobe became more involved with the offense he became more efficient, going from LA to Miami motivated him to get into shape but he also got to play with a dynamic playmaker in Wade. Nash was able to revive an old beast, Brons Cavs couldnt but the C's were able to provide Shaq a role to dominate.

I dont know which jump is more impressive but I think Shaq could play with a guy like Rondo, Nash, Kidd just fine.

good post Chronz :clap:

mdm692
09-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Nash+shaq would be dirty. Someone will get doubled teamed and the other would be wide open

ShakeN'Bake
09-23-2011, 01:47 PM
And you consider Penny to be a wing/slasher?

He also considers Penny a bubble top 50 player all-time....