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BlueJays19
09-19-2011, 06:38 PM
With Kelly Johnson gone at the end of the season, what will the jays do for 2nd base? leave replies on your thoughts :violin:

Nick O
09-19-2011, 06:43 PM
JOHNNY MAC!!!!,.... cheapest your going to get and you gotta love him :)

ILDD
09-19-2011, 10:26 PM
Offer arbitration to Johnson.

If he accepts then you have the best 2B on the Free Agent market and your problem is solved.

If he declines then you take the pick and trade for a 2B, possibly Gordon Beckham. The pick you receive will replace whoever you lose in the trade.

Krylian
09-19-2011, 10:42 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Hill is back.

That being said, I think AA will explore the trade market first.

superfio
09-19-2011, 10:54 PM
How about this Alex Liddi guy from mariners? Organizational player 2009, and smashed every league in minors, above .300 hitter almost everywhere

Sounds alot like Brett Lawrie

ghost dog
09-19-2011, 11:35 PM
Jose Reyes

superfio
09-20-2011, 03:14 AM
Yeah Reyes is cool

imagine reyes / fielder / darvish / bautista presenting a new jays uniform to media in spring? Bet it will be sold out in few hours

Wow, that would be awesome

Halladay
09-20-2011, 03:50 AM
It would be amazing to have Escobar/Reyes as the one two in the lineup but Reyes comes with great risk. He's very inconsistent. Which Reyes will you get, the 2010 or the 2011? Probably better off just keeping Johnson IMO.

MikeMcG
09-20-2011, 04:13 AM
How about hech playing second..he plays great D and is starting to hit..he's getting paid major league money right now and if AA signs someone else he will just sit in the minors..

ILDD
09-20-2011, 08:00 AM
How about hech playing second..he plays great D and is starting to hit..he's getting paid major league money right now and if AA signs someone else he will just sit in the minors..

If Hech comes up (and I don't think he will just yet) he will be playing SS not 2B. Escobar will move across the diamond, potentially as soon as September next year but more likely in 2013.

Kelly Gruber
09-20-2011, 11:26 AM
Guys like Hechavarria, MacDonald, Liddi are not real options right now. I know everyone is in love with J-Mac, but really? All season at 2B? Hechavarria needs at least a year in AAA to refine his swing and won't be taken off SS anytime soon, would be a waste. A raw rookie isn't going to cut it next year.

Hill as well, looks like he's fitting in the NL very nicely, may be better suited there. Right now I'd just try to re-sign Kelly Johnson. He's dependable and could have a good season if he starts there all year.

Reyes is going to get a stupid contract out of the Mets and won't come here to play 2B. And we have no reason to move Yunel. Won't happen.

Pretty thin position around the league, not a lot of upgrades on Johnson that look to be available really. Maybe AA makes a trade, we'll see.

Toxeryll
09-20-2011, 11:32 AM
How about this Alex Liddi guy from mariners? Organizational player 2009, and smashed every league in minors, above .300 hitter almost everywhere

Sounds alot like Brett Lawrie

no not at all. he only had one full season with above .300 average and that was in a hitter friendly California league.

500 Level
09-20-2011, 11:46 AM
What about trading for Chone Figgins? We can get him for nothing and if we take his whole salary I'm sure they could even get a prospect from them.

Best case scenario he's a leadoff 2B worst case, he's speed in the 9 hole.

koreancabbage
09-20-2011, 12:10 PM
Kelly Johnson. nuff said. the guy has consistent power and I hardly miss Aaron Hill's defense. no slouch in Johnson.

The only better 2nd baseman option is a converted Reyes. Noone else is heads and heels better than Johnson. Brandon Philips is overrated and will be way overpaid.

StayOnBoard
09-20-2011, 12:13 PM
What about trading for Chone Figgins? We can get him for nothing and if we take his whole salary I'm sure they could even get a prospect from them.

Best case scenario he's a leadoff 2B worst case, he's speed in the 9 hole.

Not a terrible idea if he's on the cheap and the M's pick up most of his contract. He has some nice wheels and is a better second baseman than anyone else on the market.

His numbers with the M's has been BRUTAL though - so I'd like to get the Angels version of him :)

There really isn't many options out there - I'd LOVE to trade for Brandon Phillips and sign him to a 4 year deal... that would be ideal. I think AA will 100% offer Kelly Johnson arb, but he'll likely decline and try to get a better deal elsewhere.


The only better 2nd baseman option is a converted Reyes. Noone else is heads and heels better than Johnson. Brandon Philips is overrated and will be way overpaid.

I'd love to hear how he's so overrated...? Given he's not even rated that highly to begin with....

Maybe it's the .300 average and the 5.2 WAR you don't like???

500 Level
09-20-2011, 12:19 PM
I'd offer Johnson arbitration first, but hope he turns it down.

Then go after Figgins, honestly he could be had for next to nothing. Like Teahen or Davis would most likely get it done.

Toxeryll
09-20-2011, 12:34 PM
figgins? are you serious? just go with mccoy and youll be saving a lot less

500 Level
09-20-2011, 12:37 PM
figgins? are you serious? just go with mccoy and youll be saving a lot less

And when was the last time McCoy had a 340 OBP and 40+ steals?

Toxeryll
09-20-2011, 01:05 PM
figgins is washed up and he still has 2 and possibly 3 yrs left in his contract worth $9mil a season. hes been horrible and plagued by injuries the last couple of seasons. im not saying mccoy is any better but considering those things that i mentioned, its not worth it to upgrade from mccoy to figgins.

Beastin'downlow
09-20-2011, 01:17 PM
I'd love to hear how he's so overrated...? Given he's not even rated that highly to begin with....

Maybe it's the .300 average and the 5.2 WAR you don't like???

I don't really feel like giving 10m+ a year to a guy with a low OBP, and not that much power. Yes he's great defensively... but no thanks. Would much rather sign johnson, or trade for kinsler(best 2B outside cano and pedroia, imo)

2009mvp
09-20-2011, 01:31 PM
LOL Chone Figgins. 3 of his past 4 seasons have been absolutely dreadful offensively, and he's at best average defensively at second. Taking on his contract has to be one of the more ridiculous ideas I've read on here.

GrumpyOldMan
09-20-2011, 02:42 PM
How much do you guys think it would take to sign JJ Hardy and do you think he would shift from shortstop to second base? I only ask because I think he would fit in really well with the Jays.

2009mvp
09-20-2011, 02:57 PM
How much do you guys think it would take to sign JJ Hardy and do you think he would shift from shortstop to second base? I only ask because I think he would fit in really well with the Jays.

I'd guess around 3/22.5, or exactly what the O's extended him for a couple of months ago ;)

CurlyAce
09-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Is Scutaro a free agent this season? I wouldn't mind bringing him back on a 1 year deal as a stop gap. Then cash in on the picks Johnston will net (since I don't think he's in the long term picture). Scutaro brings solid defence and good contact I wouldn't mind having him back again to hit 8 or 9th.

wagnall
09-20-2011, 03:15 PM
Johnson isn't my 1st choice to be certain as he hasn't shown much with the bat then he was with D backs. But I don't think we are looking for a 3 year 2nd baseman here in Johnson, rather a gap filler till we can put someone there for thr the longterm.

I agree that we can offer him Arb. and if he takes it then we keep him a year and be done with it, if he doesn't we can still fill it. Long off season, who knows who comes available.

ghost dog
09-20-2011, 03:16 PM
I'd love to hear how he's so overrated...? Given he's not even rated that highly to begin with....

Maybe it's the .300 average and the 5.2 WAR you don't like???

Everyone jumps on HR numbers but you need guys on base who can steal

500 Level
09-20-2011, 03:18 PM
LOL Chone Figgins. 3 of his past 4 seasons have been absolutely dreadful offensively, and he's at best average defensively at second. Taking on his contract has to be one of the more ridiculous ideas I've read on here.

3 out of 4 years? What ridiclious standards are you living by? I'll take every year of his career except this one at second base. He'd have one of the best OBP on this team even at his worst, and would be the biggest base stealing threat on the team. At 9 million? for two years who cares. Trade nothing for him and get a prospect in return for taking him. Buy low, sell high, asset collecting.

I'll take Figgins and a prospect and pick over Kelly Johnson

mtf
09-20-2011, 03:22 PM
Everyone jumps on HR numbers but you need guys on base who can steal

So, would you rather have a guy who can steal 20 bases (and probably come all the away around to score on 10 of those 20 for example) or a guy who can hit 20 home runs.

I'm not suggesting that small ball is bad, but it's often presented as the best and only way to play by those who favor it. That seems somewhat naive to me.

GrumpyOldMan
09-20-2011, 03:32 PM
I'd guess around 3/22.5, or exactly what the O's extended him for a couple of months ago ;)

I didn't realize he was resigned already. The freeagency list on the site I looked at still listed him as available. Thanks for the info.

ILDD
09-20-2011, 03:33 PM
So, would you rather have a guy who can steal 20 bases (and probably come all the away around to score on 10 of those 20 for example) or a guy who can hit 20 home runs.

I'm not suggesting that small ball is bad, but it's often presented as the best and only way to play by those who favor it. That seems somewhat naive to me.

I heard somewhere that there is more wins generated by a single home run in a game than by stealing four bases.

Small ball is fine but the best teams hit home runs. I have no stats to back it up right now but I daresay I could come up with some pretty easily.

500 Level
09-20-2011, 03:39 PM
Homeruns are great but it's even better when someone is on base when they occur.

2009mvp
09-20-2011, 03:50 PM
3 out of 4 years? What ridiclious standards are you living by? I'll take every year of his career except this one at second base. He'd have one of the best OBP on this team even at his worst, and would be the biggest base stealing threat on the team. At 9 million? for two years who cares. Trade nothing for him and get a prospect in return for taking him. Buy low, sell high, asset collecting.

I'll take Figgins and a prospect and pick over Kelly Johnson

Some more flaws:
-His D at second stinks
-He has a vesting 2014 option that means you can't play him fulltime in 2013 or trade him (since acquiring team can't play him fulltime either), unless you want to be stuck paying a 36 year old bench player another 9M
-Also the kind of obvious one; 17M isn't an insignificant sum, especially not to the penny pinching Jays.

As far as his OBP, quick exercise, pick one:

A
08- .276/.367/.318
09- .298/.395/.393
10- .259/.340/.306
11- .188/.241/.243

B
08- .277/.355/.346
09- .276/.355/.340
10- .291/.379/.339
11- .286/.354/.342

BlueJays19
09-20-2011, 03:52 PM
I hope some sort of trade happens. not for any pitching prospects though..

KaiserSose
09-20-2011, 04:02 PM
Homeruns are great but it's even better when someone is on base when they occur.

so your solution is to trade for Chone Figgins and pay his full salary? Stop posting. He was terrible at getting on base and had to be moved to 3rd base because he was so terrible defensively. What the hell did Kelly Johnson do to you to deserve all this hate?

wagnall
09-20-2011, 04:24 PM
I wonder if Cleveland would consider moving Kipnis . Can't see why as he's so young, but would certainly look good , along with Lawrie nice young good controllable players in 2 very important positions.

Bigred91
09-20-2011, 04:34 PM
Chone Figgins is terrible. The Jays will offer Johnson arbitration and he will probably accept.

ghost dog
09-20-2011, 05:07 PM
So, would you rather have a guy who can steal 20 bases (and probably come all the away around to score on 10 of those 20 for example) or a guy who can hit 20 home runs.

I'm not suggesting that small ball is bad, but it's often presented as the best and only way to play by those who favor it. That seems somewhat naive to me.

Most Hr hitters strikeout more often A guy hitting .300 with 20 steals will be more useful since we already have the best HR hitter in the game.( cant walk Jose if the bases are full

Krylian
09-20-2011, 06:44 PM
so your solution is to trade for Chone Figgins and pay his full salary? Stop posting. He was terrible at getting on base and had to be moved to 3rd base because he was so terrible defensively. What the hell did Kelly Johnson do to you to deserve all this hate?


He fell to Type B status.

Krylian
09-20-2011, 06:45 PM
Chone Figgins is terrible. The Jays will offer Johnson arbitration and he will probably accept.

There is zero chance Johnson accepts. ZERO.

The best 2B on the market is going to accept arbitration? No effin way.

StayOnBoard
09-20-2011, 07:10 PM
I don't really feel like giving 10m+ a year to a guy with a low OBP, and not that much power. Yes he's great defensively... but no thanks. Would much rather sign johnson, or trade for kinsler(best 2B outside cano and pedroia, imo)

I highly doubt the Rangers are trading Kinslar (though I'd also love to have him). Brandon Phillips is in the last year of his deal and the Reds aren't exactly a large market team. We could trade a few prospects for him and even see how he does the year and sign him after the season. The guy is great defensively, gets lots of hits, gets on base, and will be a perfect complement to Escobar at SS. What's not to like?

Oh.. and low OBP?

Player A
.249/.347/.465

Player B
.294/.345/.448

Player A is Kinslar, and Player B is Phillips...

Beastin'downlow
09-20-2011, 08:09 PM
phillip's career OBP is .320... kinsler's is .354. If phillips was hitting .249 like kinsler is, he'd barely have a .300 OBP(main reason I hate lind). He's not my ideal 2B, but if it's for under 8m a year, then sure. At least johnson has had season's better than phillips, like just last year. I say we give johnson a contract, at least he has had seasons with a great OBP(I don't know what's wrong with him this season, though)

Jamiecballer
09-20-2011, 08:46 PM
no thanks to figgins. it's great that he's fast and all but someone with his success rate should be running much less often. he costs his team too many outs on the basepaths. once again, no thanks. i'd pay far more for the threat of speed than actual speed that runs into outs.

ghost dog
09-21-2011, 03:54 AM
Now back to Jose Reyes. Jays need 2 Joses

mtf
09-21-2011, 04:07 AM
Most Hr hitters strikeout more often A guy hitting .300 with 20 steals will be more useful since we already have the best HR hitter in the game.( cant walk Jose if the bases are full

Well, first of all, if the Jays can find a .300 hitter to fill the slot at second base, I don't care if he's a power guy or a speed guy. I'm not sure why you just attached .300 to your speed argument, perhaps to try to bring more credibility to it.

Also, I'm not exactly sure where you're getting this idea that guys with power capability strike out more than guys with speed. There are plenty of speedy runners who strike out a lot or have trouble getting on base.

All I was saying to you originally is that this mental image you have of the ideal second basemen seems like it was based off a completely arbitrary standard you've decided upon. I'm pretty sure you were quite content watching Aaron Hill in 2009 with his 36 home runs, and only 6 for 8 in steals.

ghost dog
09-21-2011, 04:48 AM
Well, first of all, if the Jays can find a .300 hitter to fill the slot at second base, I don't care if he's a power guy or a speed guy. I'm not sure why you just attached .300 to your speed argument, perhaps to try to bring more credibility to it.

Also, I'm not exactly sure where you're getting this idea that guys with power capability strike out more than guys with speed. There are plenty of speedy runners who strike out a lot or have trouble getting on base.

All I was saying to you originally is that this mental image you have of the ideal second basemen seems like it was based off a completely arbitrary standard you've decided upon. I'm pretty sure you were quite content watching Aaron Hill in 2009 with his 36 home runs, and only 6 for 8 in steals.

Hill no hated him,Reyes Leadoff man with speed, and as far as credibility read all post first before jumping in on the end makes more sense. And my posts are mostly fact based sports is my hobby so check your facts before you test me if I;m wrong I'm one of the few that admits it so ease off 36yrs of sports knowledge here
posts are more often fact based.I study

superfio
09-21-2011, 04:49 AM
Seriously, is it possible to convert rajai davis into everyday second baseman? He used to hit for average, has speed to steal bases, is athletic and agile and relieves logjam in outfield

ghost dog
09-21-2011, 04:59 AM
Seriously, is it possible to convert rajai davis into everyday second baseman? He used to hit for average, has speed to steal bases, is athletic and agile and relieves logjam in outfield

t hats on the staff they don't pay me enough to answer that

darth helmet
09-21-2011, 09:52 AM
You guys can dream about getting Reyes all you want but Jeter is retiring soon and Yanks will need an elite SS to replace him. Boston may also want an upgrade from Scutaro.

Needless to say, someone is going to overpay for Reyes and I don't see it being Anthopolous.

500 Level
09-21-2011, 10:45 AM
Look no one is saying Chone Figgins is the perfect solution to our problems, but show me a free agent 2B that makes more sense. Our infield defense is fine, the one thing we are missing is a guy who gets on base and steal some bases.

More importantly though, is we can buy low to the point Seattle will give us something for taking him of their hands. We're paying Mark Teahen 5.5Million, 9 for Figgins is fine with a nice prospect coming back. It's about collecting assets. Figgins plus the prospect and the pick from Johnson walking, which he's going to do, deal with that. He won't accept arb.

Figgins and two prospects is better than whatever horse **** overpaid Omar Infante, or someone else that makes no sense to sign for more than a year. Buy low sell high. We have the money to pay the guy for two years. Don't tell me not to post, just think about baseball on a higher more realistic level. Trading for Kipnis would be great and would only cost us three good prospects. Or we could sign Jose Reyes to play a position he doesn't play in a market I'm sure he has no interest in against the Sox and the Yankees.

Use your head.

damadmonk
09-21-2011, 11:06 AM
If KJ declines arbitration, I say Escobar.

We pick up his 2 option years on the condition he moves to 2nd base.

We bring up Hech and start him at SS.


We've had one of the middle infielders hit .215ish all year this season. If Hech can do that and bring in a gold glove at short, we would be better off than this year.

As well, you might as well make this adjustment sooner rather then later as you would have time to develop Lawrie/Hech/Escobar as the future (at least 3 yrs) in your infield.

How good would our infield defense be with those 3?

500 Level
09-21-2011, 12:42 PM
If KJ declines arbitration, I say Escobar.

We pick up his 2 option years on the condition he moves to 2nd base.

We bring up Hech and start him at SS.


We've had one of the middle infielders hit .215ish all year this season. If Hech can do that and bring in a gold glove at short, we would be better off than this year.

As well, you might as well make this adjustment sooner rather then later as you would have time to develop Lawrie/Hech/Escobar as the future (at least 3 yrs) in your infield.

How good would our infield defense be with those 3?

Escobar loses all his value at 2B

damadmonk
09-21-2011, 01:07 PM
Escobar loses all his value at 2B

What value are you talking about? Hitting? Defense?

Bob_at_york
09-21-2011, 01:11 PM
What value are you talking about? Hitting? Defense?

I think he is referring to more so his offensive value.

2009mvp
09-21-2011, 02:09 PM
Look no one is saying Chone Figgins is the perfect solution to our problems, but show me a free agent 2B that makes more sense. Our infield defense is fine, the one thing we are missing is a guy who gets on base and steal some bases.

More importantly though, is we can buy low to the point Seattle will give us something for taking him of their hands. We're paying Mark Teahen 5.5Million, 9 for Figgins is fine with a nice prospect coming back. It's about collecting assets. Figgins plus the prospect and the pick from Johnson walking, which he's going to do, deal with that. He won't accept arb.

Figgins and two prospects is better than whatever horse **** overpaid Omar Infante, or someone else that makes no sense to sign for more than a year. Buy low sell high. We have the money to pay the guy for two years. Don't tell me not to post, just think about baseball on a higher more realistic level. Trading for Kipnis would be great and would only cost us three good prospects. Or we could sign Jose Reyes to play a position he doesn't play in a market I'm sure he has no interest in against the Sox and the Yankees.

Use your head.



A
08- .276/.367/.318
09- .298/.395/.393
10- .259/.340/.306
11- .188/.241/.243

B
08- .277/.355/.346
09- .276/.355/.340
10- .291/.379/.339
11- .286/.354/.342

Jamey Carroll, who probably gets no more than 3M next year in free agency (not to mention who is actually a solid defender at second). Just admit it, Figgins is an awful, awful idea. You could buy low on Adam Dunn right now too, certainly doesn't mean he's gonna turn it around all of a sudden.

damadmonk
09-21-2011, 03:08 PM
I think he is referring to more so his offensive value.

Thats only from the perspective of "trade value".

I'm going to assume he hits as well at 2nd base as he has been an ss.

I don't believe that we are looking to trade Escobar anytime soon.

Bob_at_york
09-21-2011, 03:17 PM
Thats only from the perspective of "trade value".

I'm going to assume he hits as well at 2nd base as he has been an ss.

I don't believe that we are looking to trade Escobar anytime soon.

no, not as trade value. I think he is referring to value to our team. As a SS he is pretty damn good offensively. As a 2nd baseman, Escobar drops further down the rankings.

wagnall
09-21-2011, 10:15 PM
Hasn't AA wanted Johnson for a while. I don't think he's willingly going to give up on him, plus during off season all sorts of guys come available that you don't expect. This off season will be no diff. when it comes to 2nd baseman. Give it a chance.

damadmonk
09-22-2011, 02:52 AM
no, not as trade value. I think he is referring to value to our team. As a SS he is pretty damn good offensively. As a 2nd baseman, Escobar drops further down the rankings.


But that is comparing it to other 2nd basemen.

If you look at our SS/2B this yr with Escobar/Hill/Johnson vs. Hech/Escobar potential next yr +.

Offensively we go down a bit if Hech can't hit higher than say .220, but our defense improves greatly.

Hech by all accounts is at least a boarderline gold glove mlb player. Escobar average range at SS becomes above average at 2B if he transitions smoothly.


I'm looking at this as a present and future projections for 2012-2014 with Lawrie/Hech/Escobar. We could have these 3 for yrs and possibly have the best left side of the infield in baseball for a decade.

This move alone makes our pitchers better.

Halladay
09-22-2011, 03:43 AM
Do people seriously believe that Escobar is just an average defensive SS?

damadmonk
09-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Do people seriously believe that Escobar is just an average defensive SS?

I'm being conservative at worst. If he's an above average SS, he would have the tools to be an above average 2B.


Hech at SS is the future. His defense is more than ready. If we have to wait around for his bat, it's not the worse thing in the world.


This is all assuming KJ declines arbitration. If he accepts, Hech/Escobar happens in 2013.

B2B
09-22-2011, 10:27 AM
Go big or go home,

Either take the risk on a player like (Reyes) or take the cheap option of resigning a player like MacDonald

allot Johnson's 7mil salary else ware & collect the picks.

ghost dog
09-22-2011, 10:24 PM
Go big or go home,

Either take the risk on a player like (Reyes) or take the cheap option of resigning a player like MacDonald

allot Johnson's 7mil salary else ware & collect the picks.

agreed Reyes is the future 2B we need he fills two holes Leadoff and 2B

Beastin'downlow
09-22-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm perfectly fine with escobar being our leadoff hitter. I don't want reyes, because he doesn't walk enough. Can't hit for power, is just a triple and sb threat(the fact that he's hitting .330, and his OBP is just a little higher than escobar's, says a lot, imo). Maybe for 15m per for 5 years, TOPS(but why would the mets even think of him leaving for that contract?). We can trade for hanley... or if you actually want to go BIG, blockbuster trade for tulo, and escobar to 2nd.

ghost dog
09-22-2011, 11:44 PM
There is enough power, leadoff men get on base for the power. Plus power goes through slumps speed doesn't so you can play both the power and small ball

passengershawn
09-23-2011, 12:10 AM
Reyes would be great @ 2B, but it's unlikely (1) T.O. is able to offer something better than Mets and everyone else, and (2) he comes to T.O to play 2B

I agree AA will offer Johnson arb, and depending on how the field plays out, he likely declines. Aaron Hill is as strong an option as Johnson IMO. Johnny Mac is not the solution, but a great bench guy!

GNick
09-23-2011, 08:20 AM
agreed Reyes is the future 2B we need he fills two holes Leadoff and 2B

Reyes is a piece of glass, why you want to invest that kind of cash in somebody with his negatives? He's never played 2b much Jays be way better off spending that kind of cash on a pitching staff. Top up/overpay their offer for Darvish, anything besides an expensive injury prone player playing out of his natural position. Reyes is a Jason Bay type contract of 2 years ago. In that his numbers will fetch him the big contract but he is a disaster waiting to happen

ghost dog
09-24-2011, 02:23 AM
Reyes is a piece of glass, why you want to invest that kind of cash in somebody with his negatives? He's never played 2b much Jays be way better off spending that kind of cash on a pitching staff. Top up/overpay their offer for Darvish, anything besides an expensive injury prone player playing out of his natural position. Reyes is a Jason Bay type contract of 2 years ago. In that his numbers will fetch him the big contract but he is a disaster waiting to happen

Or the injuries could be behind him and he has played 2B enough to know that Escobar and Reyes could become the best up the midddle duo in the game IMHO

Bigred91
10-21-2011, 02:07 PM
There is zero chance Johnson accepts. ZERO.

The best 2B on the market is going to accept arbitration? No effin way.

Even if he is the best 2B on the market, he is still terrible. I hope he doesn't accept.

B2B
10-21-2011, 02:21 PM
Hanley Ramirez

He's had issues in Florida with coaches and teammates. Some think he's worn out his welcome and to some in the Organization think a change of scenery could potentially benefit all parties involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hanley Ramirez is one of the most talented players in baseball, but his behavior on and off the field, could have the All-Star shortstop being moved by the trading deadline. The Marlins are now on their third manager in the last two years and Ramirez was benched by new manager Jack McKeon for being late to a mandatory team meeting.

Ramirez still has two more seasons on his current contract and that could make a contending team interested in his services. His on-field antics have hurt his value, but the Marlins could still acquire two or three quality prospects for the troubled shortstop.

It appears that both sides have given up on each other and a fresh start might be the best move for Ramirez and the Marlins. Look for Florida to give their star one last shot, but if he continues to be disrespectful to the team and its new manager, look for him to playing in a different uniform before the trade deadline next month.

http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979488829

I highly doubt that this scenario would legitimately happen, but according to Doug Mittler of ESPN Insider, Marlins special assistant Jeff Conine is open to trading away Ramirez:


Special assistant Jeff Conine, a former teammate of Hanley, said in radio interview Friday he wouldn't be opposed to the Marlins trading Ramirez. "If it were up to me, probably," Conine said.

While Conine later downplayed his comments, they do point to what could be continued frustration in the Marlins' front office with Ramirez' concentration level. Ramirez last weekend eclipsed Conine (1,005) for second on the club's all-time hit list.

http://www.jayreas.com/mlb-trade-rumors-marlins-looking-to-move-hanley-ramirez/


Looks to be a AA type target,

GrumpyOldMan
10-21-2011, 02:35 PM
Hanley Ramirez

He's had issues in Florida with coaches and teammates. Some think he's worn out his welcome and to some in the Organization think a change of scenery could potentially benefit all parties involved.
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Hanley Ramirez is one of the most talented players in baseball, but his behavior on and off the field, could have the All-Star shortstop being moved by the trading deadline. The Marlins are now on their third manager in the last two years and Ramirez was benched by new manager Jack McKeon for being late to a mandatory team meeting.

Ramirez still has two more seasons on his current contract and that could make a contending team interested in his services. His on-field antics have hurt his value, but the Marlins could still acquire two or three quality prospects for the troubled shortstop.

It appears that both sides have given up on each other and a fresh start might be the best move for Ramirez and the Marlins. Look for Florida to give their star one last shot, but if he continues to be disrespectful to the team and its new manager, look for him to playing in a different uniform before the trade deadline next month.

http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979488829

I highly doubt that this scenario would legitimately happen, but according to Doug Mittler of ESPN Insider, Marlins special assistant Jeff Conine is open to trading away Ramirez:


Special assistant Jeff Conine, a former teammate of Hanley, said in radio interview Friday he wouldn't be opposed to the Marlins trading Ramirez. "If it were up to me, probably," Conine said.

While Conine later downplayed his comments, they do point to what could be continued frustration in the Marlins' front office with Ramirez' concentration level. Ramirez last weekend eclipsed Conine (1,005) for second on the club's all-time hit list.

http://www.jayreas.com/mlb-trade-rumors-marlins-looking-to-move-hanley-ramirez/


Looks to be a AA type target,

I'd love to get Hanley, but I'm not sure how realistic it is. If he becomes available I'm sure AA will kick the tires.

Halladay
10-21-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm being conservative at worst. If he's an above average SS, he would have the tools to be an above average 2B.


Hech at SS is the future. His defense is more than ready. If we have to wait around for his bat, it's not the worse thing in the world.


This is all assuming KJ declines arbitration. If he accepts, Hech/Escobar happens in 2013.

I have major issues with people penciling Hech as a starter in the majors. The guys bat just isn't there yet and might never be. Most "experts" see his bat as league average in the best case scenario. So the realistic outlook and the likely one is that he's great on D, which isn't in question, and lousy with the bat. In other words, when he does get called up and I'm sure he will those people penciling him into the lineup will see John McDonald v.2. I'm not about to put all my eggs in one basket with Hech.

town123
11-12-2011, 02:15 PM
I wonder what it would take to get Nick Franklin from the M's and slide him over to 2B. The kid may not be ready for a year or two like Gose and D'arnaud but would fit the AA long term plan.

Nica
11-12-2011, 10:21 PM
I have major issues with people penciling Hech as a starter in the majors. The guys bat just isn't there yet and might never be. Most "experts" see his bat as league average in the best case scenario. So the realistic outlook and the likely one is that he's great on D, which isn't in question, and lousy with the bat. In other words, when he does get called up and I'm sure he will those people penciling him into the lineup will see John McDonald v.2. I'm not about to put all my eggs in one basket with Hech.

My guess is they are pushing his great D and " emerging" bat because he's making 10 million bucks over 4 years to play minor league ball. The days of slick glove/ no bat Mark Belanger are gone as middle infielders like Tulo are two hundred pounders who can hit HR's and turn a double play. Crazy some of the numbers that come out of the traditionally lighter hitting positions.

wamco
11-13-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm being conservative at worst. If he's an above average SS, he would have the tools to be an above average 2B.


Hech at SS is the future. His defense is more than ready. If we have to wait around for his bat, it's not the worse thing in the world.


This is all assuming KJ declines arbitration. If he accepts, Hech/Escobar happens in 2013.

and if hech's bat falls in the JMac territory???

FrenchyCanadian
11-15-2011, 02:00 AM
My guess is they are pushing his great D and " emerging" bat because he's making 10 million bucks over 4 years to play minor league ball. The days of slick glove/ no bat Mark Belanger are gone as middle infielders

I don't know about that, you may be jumping the gun a bit. Been a lot of teams won with a no-hit good glove shortstop. Defense kind of overrides offense important at SS position compared to other positions. Something like catcher in that way. Cardinals just won a World Series with Theriot and Furcal who hit a combined .696 OPS. Giants won the year before with Uribe. Red Sox won 2 Series one with Lugo and Cabrera, Angels won recently with well known to us David Ekstein. Marlins also won with Alex Gonzalez.

Sanyo
11-15-2011, 11:54 AM
Johnson probably goes, Jays get a pick and maybe trade or acquire a 2b. But they will have to go out to get it since they don't have a viable 2b in the farm.

AA knew what he was doing (and we did too) when he made the trade for Johnson -- guaranteed pick. Now he's a Type A he's much valuable to let go -- he wasn't very impressive to me anyways.

Bob_at_york
11-15-2011, 12:08 PM
Aaron hill resigned with the D-Backs. He isn't coming back.

miller74
11-15-2011, 12:48 PM
Bartlett and Hudson available for trade from SD

StayOnBoard
11-15-2011, 01:01 PM
Looks like the Jays might lose out on compensation for Kelly Johnson if he signs elsewhere.

Depends on the new CBA... but we might get shafted on that draft pick.

craigerlee
11-15-2011, 01:13 PM
Looks like the Jays might lose out on compensation for Kelly Johnson if he signs elsewhere.

Depends on the new CBA... but we might get shafted on that draft pick.

I don't see how the league could keep Type A the same for Reyes and Fielder and make it different for guys like Johnson and Dotel. Jays can claim they wouldn't of traded for Johnson if they knew this. Jays would definitely file a grievance if this happened. Sucks that their probably doing away with Type B as well, cause I was hoping to net a pick for Molina and possibly Francisco.

Big Hurt
11-15-2011, 02:17 PM
I will say Francisco to me is looking like a MUST sign guy at this point in terms of the teams best option.
Whether setting up or closing he is a pretty solid arm.

Sanyo
11-15-2011, 07:22 PM
Should have three levels:

Type A for the top 5 players in the league (get first round pick and get sandwich pick)
Type B for the next top 5 (get sandwich pick)
Type C for the next 10 players (cash or 2nd round pick)

Anyone under no pick!

dunedinjays
11-15-2011, 07:54 PM
I don't see how the league could keep Type A the same for Reyes and Fielder and make it different for guys like Johnson and Dotel. Jays can claim they wouldn't of traded for Johnson if they knew this. Jays would definitely file a grievance if this happened. Sucks that their probably doing away with Type B as well, cause I was hoping to net a pick for Molina and possibly Francisco.

Uhh, because they actually deserve type A status? Everybody knows how flawed this free agent ranking system is. I think its great their getting rid of it.

North Yorker
11-15-2011, 08:02 PM
As for Phillips:


#Reds don't plan to make Brandon Phillips available via trade. Not sure that one of their young IFs would be ready to play 2B everyday.
http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/136570915898130432

craigerlee
11-15-2011, 08:05 PM
Uhh, because they actually deserve type A status? Everybody knows how flawed this free agent ranking system is. I think its great their getting rid of it.

Regardless of whether its flawed or if they deserve it or not, teams made decisions based on what the collective bargaining agreement was at the time. They're basically making up arbitrary rules this year and then bringing in a new compensation system next year by the sounds of it. I have no problem with them bringing in a new compensation system next year, but it makes no sense to redefine what a Type A player is for this offseason, only to redefine it again for next offseason.

dunedinjays
11-15-2011, 08:08 PM
Regardless of whether its flawed or if they deserve it or not, teams made decisions based on what the collective bargaining agreement was at the time. They're basically making up arbitrary rules this year and then bringing in a new compensation system next year by the sounds of it. I have no problem with them bringing in a new compensation system next year, but it makes no sense to redefine what a Type A player is for this offseason, only to redefine it again for next offseason.

Everybody knew that the CBA was expiring this year. You could be playing by a whole set of different rules. If teams didn't consider that, that's there problem.

I even posted that this was a strong possibility and yet all it did was get people upset.

Billyen
11-15-2011, 08:17 PM
I wouldn't worry about it...if changed the rules will kick in '13.

craigerlee
11-15-2011, 08:18 PM
Everybody knew that the CBA was expiring this year. You could be playing by a whole set of different rules. If teams didn't consider that, that's there problem.

I even posted that this was a strong possibility and yet all it did was get people upset.

How were teams supposed to make decisions come trade deadline about players? Obviously they were gonna base it off the current CBA as the fairest outcome would be to make major changes effective after this offseason. When Sandy Alderson is reassured by the commissioners office that if he keeps Reyes he's getting compensation, then what are other teams with potential Type A free agents supposed assume then? Its a poor way to implement the change as teams can't make proper decisions during the season, and its unfair and stupid to keep Type A status the same this year for only certain players, and then change it for all players next year.

Billyen
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
I even posted that this was a strong possibility and yet all it did was get people upset.

Wait...you posted something and people got upset? Noooo. Say it aint so.
Give me their name and I'll sort them out!

dunedinjays
11-15-2011, 10:42 PM
Wait...you posted something and people got upset? Noooo. Say it aint so.
Give me their name and I'll sort them out!

I know. People are too sensitive on this forum.

Halladay
11-16-2011, 05:55 AM
As for Phillips:


http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/136570915898130432

Phillips career numbers just aren't good if you ask me, considering the price. Kelly Johnson has better career numbers and Hills not even that far off either. Of course though, it's all about "what have you done for me lately".

Sanyo
11-16-2011, 09:29 PM
At this point there are not many options to get rid of K-Jo.