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View Full Version : Will D Wade ever win MVP?



Nolesforlife
09-17-2011, 04:36 PM
Do you think the voters will finally give him just kind of a life time achievement vote kind of thing like Kobe got? It will be a shame if he never wins MVP. how many years does he have to average 26, 6, and 5 until he wins it???

Tony_Starks
09-17-2011, 04:40 PM
Do you think the voters will finally give him just kind of a life time achievement vote kind of thing like Kobe got? It will be a shame if he never wins MVP. how many years does he have to average 26, 6, and 5 until he wins it???



:confused:

PinnacleFlash
09-17-2011, 04:52 PM
He should win MVP if he gets LeBron traded.

Cal827
09-17-2011, 04:52 PM
:confused:

I think he referring to how Kobe had better seasons (E.g.I think he put up like 35+ per game a few years before when it was just basically him and scrubs on the Lakers and somehow got them into the playoffs), but didn't win MVP. Also, when he won this one, there were good arguments for other people (mainly Lebron who averaged 30-7-7 and had the highest PER that year).

Wade should've have won it over Lebron in 08-09. He averaged 30-5-8-2.5-1 (last two are steals/blocks) while shooting about 50% from the field and lead the previous 18 win Heat team (he did miss a chunk of that year due to injury) back into the playoffs with 43 wins. Now, I'm not sure if he's going to get one. With two of the best players in the NBA, voters might look past him ( especially since a lot of people feel Lebron > Wade in the season). So I would put it at like 5%, unless they decide to let him get the ball more in critical periods of games or Lebron ends up getting hurt for a long period of time. The latter I don't see happening.

Nolesforlife
09-17-2011, 04:53 PM
:confused:

in 07-08 there were better, more valuable players than kobe but they gave it to him because he was such a great player throughout his career but didn't have an MVP

Cano4prez
09-17-2011, 04:56 PM
:confused:

CP3 should have won MVP in 2008 that's what he's referring too

RZZZA
09-17-2011, 04:59 PM
If Lebron goes down for the season and Wade carries the team to a #1 seed then sure. I don't see how Wade ever wins one with Lebron playing by his side.

Tony_Starks
09-17-2011, 05:26 PM
CP3 should have won MVP in 2008 that's what he's referring too


MVP has been "best player on the best team" for quite a while now. CP3 and Kobe were neck and neck all season and Lakers edged NO for the best record so it went to Kobe. Had NO been no. 1 in the West then Paul would've won it.......

Rivera
09-17-2011, 05:30 PM
i thought cp3 should have won the 08 MVP but i understand why they gave it to kobe (different arguement different day)

but i dont ever think dwade will ever win a regular season mvp

GoPacers33
09-17-2011, 05:32 PM
He should but I bet he won't. Same with cp3

Tony_Starks
09-17-2011, 05:34 PM
back to Wade though, NO. He forfeited any mvp hopes when he teamed up with Bron Bron.....

29$JerZ
09-17-2011, 05:35 PM
Finals MVP IMO is his only shot
I can't see he win MVP with LBJ, Paul, Kobe, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and especially Durant in the mix overall

Avenged
09-17-2011, 05:36 PM
I doubt it. Lebron's team so any success will go to Lebron's credit unless Wade picks up his stellar play even more. But I doubt it.

Toxeryll
09-17-2011, 05:38 PM
no, unless lebron gets injured most of the season or get traded

Raps08-09 Champ
09-17-2011, 05:43 PM
Lebron is better so it'll be hard.

PinnacleFlash
09-17-2011, 05:49 PM
I doubt it. Lebron's team so any success will go to Lebron's credit unless Wade picks up his stellar play even more. But I doubt it.

LeBrons team? lmao.

Andrew32
09-17-2011, 05:59 PM
LeBrons team? lmao.

I agree that comment is pretty silly.

I would say its clearly Wades team and even if you think Lebron is better the credit will go to whoever plays well if and when they win a Title or get deep into the playoffs.

If they both play well they both get credit.

Example : I give Gasol a ton of credit for the 2010 Playoffs even though pretty much everyone would consider LA "Kobe's Team"

I dont see Wade winning MVP but I dont think it matters.
In the end MVP's are just a "voted" award and are only the opinions of a few people they dont mean much.

Avenged
09-17-2011, 06:05 PM
Your opinion. Lebron carried the Heat despite 1 series blinding you.

Andrew32
09-17-2011, 06:08 PM
Your opinion. Lebron carried the Heat despite 1 series blinding you.

What made you come to that opinion?

Wade carried them against Boston and the Mavs.

Lebron carried them against the Bullz.

Even then Wade was still Clutch vs the Bullz and a big reason they got past them.

PinnacleFlash
09-17-2011, 06:09 PM
Your opinion. Lebron carried the Heat despite 1 series blinding you.
Define carry.

Wade and LeBron needed each other in that Celtics series and Wade was actually better in that series. Carry in that Bulls series? sure, but Wade contributed in the clutch and in other ways. Where was LeBron in the finals? Oh yeah, non-existent.


LeBrick fans fail again.

Andrew32
09-17-2011, 06:13 PM
I think both Lebron and Wade were good to great in the First 3 rounds and then Wade carried them in the Finals.

That is what separates Wade from the rest of the Elite Guards of this Era besides Jordan he is truly an Elite Finals performer.

Bruno
09-17-2011, 06:27 PM
Regular season? That'll be tough. He's way more likely to win another Finals MVP. Wade topped LBJ in post season PER, TS% and WS/48 this last post season, no reason why he can't do that again on their way to the title.

I'd say he won't get a regular season MVP.

MJ-BULLS
09-17-2011, 06:31 PM
If they trade lebron, i can see wade winning a mvp.

TheRunKiller
09-17-2011, 06:33 PM
If they trade lebron, i can see wade winning a mvp.

I don't think he could because his team would never be good enough.

JasonJohnHorn
09-17-2011, 06:34 PM
Only way it happens is if LBJ gets injured for the season and the Heat still finish first.

He kissed any chance of the MVP goodbye when he decided he wanted to play on an all-star team. When you you have other all-stars on your team, you just aren't going to be as valuable. James for that matter will also be lucky if he ever wins another MVP with a talent like Wade playing beside him. The cancel each other out. Its why Garnett didnt win when he came to Boston, because he had two other all-stars helping him out.

PinnacleFlash
09-17-2011, 06:34 PM
I don't think he could because his team would never be good enough.
Good point he is no regular season hero like LeBron. Good thing he is a playoff hero.

playoff heroes > regular season heroes

wade > lebron.

shizzle09
09-17-2011, 06:45 PM
Probably not with Lebron on his team. The finals MVP is much more impressive IMO.

TheNumber37
09-17-2011, 06:46 PM
Skip all the way down without reading other people's response... No.

Bruno
09-17-2011, 07:02 PM
Probably not with Lebron on his team. The finals MVP is much more impressive IMO.

x2. NBA regular season MVP is possibly the most circumstantial award in professional sports; very political. Finals MVP is more a direct reward of play and production, far more removed from politics seen in the selection of regular season MVP.

younger generations of NBA fans will look back on the NBA MVP award and ask themselves "how can we take this award seriously when Shaq, Bryant and Wade combine for two regular season MVPs", IMO.

smith&wesson
09-17-2011, 07:04 PM
yes d wade will mvp before he retires.

Stuckey#3
09-17-2011, 07:12 PM
If they trade lebron, i can see wade winning a mvp.

Or if Lebron gets hurt... a lot of people do not realize how lucky Brick has been to be healthy for his first 8 seasons in the league. He has never played less than 76 games in the regular season and has been healthy as a horse pulling a bandwagon besides various minor thumb and ankle injuries.

A lot of NBA greats and current stars have dealt with serious injuries/illnesses... Lebron has never felt this or any other sort of adversity. If he ever does Wade would continue to dominate in his absence IMO.

MJ-BULLS
09-17-2011, 07:20 PM
Or if Lebron gets hurt... a lot of people do not realize how lucky Brick has been to be healthy for his first 8 seasons in the league. He has never played less than 76 games in the regular season and has been healthy as a horse pulling a bandwagon besides various minor thumb and ankle injuries.

A lot of NBA greats and current stars have dealt with serious injuries/illnesses... Lebron has never felt this or any other sort of adversity. If he ever does Wade would continue to dominate in his absence IMO.

Yeah, thats a possibility too.

Andrew32
09-17-2011, 07:23 PM
x2. NBA regular season MVP is possibly the most circumstantial award in professional sports; very political. Finals MVP is more a direct reward of play and production, far more removed from politics seen in the selection of regular season MVP.

younger generations of NBA fans will look back on the NBA MVP award and ask themselves "how can we take this award seriously when Shaq, Bryant and Wade combine for two regular season MVPs", IMO.

I agree with you partly in that Final MVP's are usually given to the correct player and are more significant compared to RS MVP's.

However I dont think much weight should be put on either of the Awards themselves but on great performances.
Even things like Titles/Rings get a bit overblown when rating individual players considering this is a "Team" game.

naps
09-17-2011, 07:27 PM
I don't think he could because his team would never be good enough.

Explain. If they traded LeBron, they will still have Wade and Bosh, plus another superstar at least or multiple stars in return for LeBron. You clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about here.

naps
09-17-2011, 07:35 PM
IMO Wade's chances are down now since LeBron will always have better overall stats. But to say straight up NO is stupid; Wade might go to a stellar mode and make him deserve the MVP award. He's clearly capable of doing it but I doubt he'll ever try to do that in the regular season because his team doesn't need him to be that dominant in the regular season and run out of gas in the playoffs anymore. Wade clearly doesn't care much about the season MVP award. He already has a more valuable award and I bet he will get at least one more finals MVP.

Bruno
09-17-2011, 07:43 PM
However I dont think much weight should be put on either of the Awards themselves but on great performances.


Usually finals MVP goes to the greatest performance. Such as Tony Parker in 2007. Clearly not better than Duncan, but his stats and performance from the finals sweep were and thats why he got the award.

Birdmannn
09-17-2011, 10:50 PM
Not going to happen with LBJ there, play style is to similar with Lebron getting the better stats.

knightstemplar
09-17-2011, 10:52 PM
CP3 should have won MVP in 2008 that's what he's referring too

uh..no

Nolesforlife
09-17-2011, 11:30 PM
What made you come to that opinion?

Wade carried them against Boston and the Mavs.

Lebron carried them against the Bullz.

Even then Wade was still Clutch vs the Bullz and a big reason they got past them.

What does this thread have to do with Lebron and Wade? People have beaten this topic to death. Please just give it up. All I know is the Heat have Lebron AND Wade. Lebron and Wade both were solid vs. the 76ers. Wade was fantastic vs. the Celtics but Lebron was great himself and he was the one who delivered thwe knock out blows. Vs. the bulls it was Lebron no contest. and Finals it was Wade no contest. if it weren't for Lebron or Wade the Heat wouldn't have sniffed the Finals, period

Nolesforlife
09-17-2011, 11:32 PM
Whatever though. I'll be happier if he gets himself some more rings and finals MVPS. Finals MVP> regular season MVP, any day

PinnacleFlash
09-17-2011, 11:35 PM
What does this thread have to do with Lebron and Wade? People have beaten this topic to death. Please just give it up. All I know is the Heat have Lebron AND Wade. Lebron and Wade both were solid vs. the 76ers. Wade was fantastic vs. the Celtics but Lebron was great himself and he was the one who delivered thwe knock out blows. Vs. the bulls it was Lebron no contest. and Finals it was Wade no contest. if it weren't for Lebron or Wade the Heat wouldn't have sniffed the Finals, period

Sorry but Wade > LeBron

Andrew32
09-17-2011, 11:47 PM
Whatever though. I'll be happier if he gets himself some more rings and finals MVPS. Finals MVP> regular season MVP, any day

If it comes under the Umbrella of a great performance I agree.

shep33
09-17-2011, 11:57 PM
Sadly no, but its not a big deal, the MVP system if so flawed. I love Steve Nash, but for him to have as many MVP's as Kobe and Shaq combined is a travesty.

shep33
09-17-2011, 11:58 PM
Sorry but Wade > LeBron

I agree. Both are spectacular though.

KeepMonta#8
09-18-2011, 02:09 AM
uh..no

uh yea...

gwrighter
09-18-2011, 02:15 AM
people hate ballers these days, aint that like lebron james? aint that just like d-Wade, wait?

PinnacleFlash
09-18-2011, 03:22 AM
I agree. Both are spectacular though.
Good.

LOOTERX9
09-18-2011, 04:00 AM
No

ewmania
09-18-2011, 04:03 AM
aslong as wade continue to only make noise when he's teamed with the likes of a shaq or a lebron, then no

but if lebron gets traded and miami clinches atleast the number 2 seed. then yeah

ewmania
09-18-2011, 04:07 AM
IMO Wade's chances are down now since LeBron will always have better overall stats. But to say straight up NO is stupid; Wade might go to a stellar mode and make him deserve the MVP award. He's clearly capable of doing it but I doubt he'll ever try to do that in the regular season because his team doesn't need him to be that dominant in the regular season and run out of gas in the playoffs anymore. Wade clearly doesn't care much about the season MVP award. He already has a more valuable award and I bet he will get at least one more finals MVP.

actually thats exactly what they need him to do

jordan was mvp and still dominated in the playoffs, no excuses basically

Bruno
09-18-2011, 04:55 AM
If it comes under the Umbrella of a great performance I agree.

When has it not?

Bulls_fan90
09-18-2011, 05:18 AM
Nope. I just don't think he has a shot with both Lebron and Bosh on his team. If anyone on the Heat will win MVP it will be Lebron.

Andrew32
09-18-2011, 05:46 AM
When has it not?

Kobe 2010 Finals MVP
28.6 // 8 // 3.9 // --- 40.5 FG%

Gasol 2010 Finals
18.6pts, 3.7asts, 11.6rbs, .7stl, 2.6blk, 1.9to, .478/.000/.721

Not sure he deserved it over Gasol but even so I definitely wouldn't call it a great performance by him, not even a good or decent one.

He had the lowest shooting percentage (97 missed shots out of 163) in NBA history for a Finals MVP. (ouch)

beasted86
09-18-2011, 08:30 AM
Sadly no, but its not a big deal, the MVP system if so flawed. I love Steve Nash, but for him to have as many MVP's as Kobe and Shaq combined is a travesty.

This.

Bruno
09-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Kobe 2010 Finals MVP
28.6 // 8 // 3.9 // --- 40.5 FG%

Gasol 2010 Finals
18.6pts, 3.7asts, 11.6rbs, .7stl, 2.6blk, 1.9to, .478/.000/.721

Not sure he deserved it over Gasol but even so I definitely wouldn't call it a great performance by him, not even a good or decent one.

He had the lowest shooting percentage (97 missed shots out of 163) in NBA history for a Finals MVP. (ouch)

So 29-8-4 is not only not good, but not even decent? Good luck convincing anybody that 29-8-4 isn't a decent performance.

You're analysis and focus on FG% is agenda driven. You completley ignore TS% just to make your point seem more valid. You focus on FG% all the while ignoring his counting numbers, and more importantly his success at the line.

Bryant was 53/60= 88.3% during the Boston series.
Gasol was 44/61= 72.1% during the Boston series.

When measuring a players scoring efficiency FT% and attempts must be taken into account. When you calculate both players TS%, and then consider the counting numbers, Bryant deserved MVP. (Gasol shot under 46% for five of the seven games).

Feeling that Gasol deserved finals MVP is one thing (a minority of NBA fans will maintain this for the rest of time). But to say that Bryant had a bad performance? Common dude.

Ill21
09-18-2011, 02:55 PM
With LeBron there probably not

ManningToTyree
09-18-2011, 03:27 PM
Considering his situation it will be a challenge for him to be considered the best player on his team. So I say no

mkdo
09-18-2011, 04:25 PM
i say trade lebron for andrew bogut and a couple of throw ins and wade will get both regular season and finals mvps.

OR JUST ABOUT ANY DECENT CENTER

that is if my knicks dont get a center

SportsFanatic10
09-18-2011, 05:48 PM
who cares about an award that is often given to someone who shouldn't even win it. definately not wade since he knew teaming with lebron and bosh ended his chances at it most likely. he'll get another finals mvp or 2 though.

KnicksorBust
09-18-2011, 06:19 PM
With LeBron there probably not

Sadly I agree with this. LeBron will always outshine him statistically.

Pornstar86
09-18-2011, 09:58 PM
If Lebron goes down for the season and Wade carries the team to a #1 seed then sure. I don't see how Wade ever wins one with Lebron playing by his side.

i love how people swear they cant win a ring together when they were 2 games away, and one of those games dallas shot something like 18-25 from 3pt.

Andrew32
09-18-2011, 11:04 PM
So 29-8-4 is not only not good, but not even decent? Good luck convincing anybody that 29-8-4 isn't a decent performance.

You're analysis and focus on FG% is agenda driven. You completley ignore TS% just to make your point seem more valid. You focus on FG% all the while ignoring his counting numbers, and more importantly his success at the line.

Bryant was 53/60= 88.3% during the Boston series.
Gasol was 44/61= 72.1% during the Boston series.

When measuring a players scoring efficiency FT% and attempts must be taken into account. When you calculate both players TS%, and then consider the counting numbers, Bryant deserved MVP. (Gasol shot under 46% for five of the seven games).

Feeling that Gasol deserved finals MVP is one thing (a minority of NBA fans will maintain this for the rest of time). But to say that Bryant had a bad performance? Common dude.

Your focusing too much on the Gasol/Kobe thing, I couldnt care less that Kobe won the MVP over him it was just a small point I wanted to make/tell you. I can see a fair argument for Bryant winning the Award and I dont think its a big deal they gave it to him.

Yes Bryant shot well from the line (he always does) does that make up for the fact that he shot terribly from the field (really terribly) over the course of the series and its arguable that his worst game in the series was the clincher?

28/8/4 on 40% shooting with nearly 4 turnovers and fouls per game is not a great performance even by Iverson standards.

I dont see why your trying to defend it, I mean he could have played worse I guess but acting like its impressive for an Elite Scoring SG to score 28 ppg on the number of attempts he took and the % he shot is ridiculous.

if I made a list of Finals performances by guards of this Decade I am sure Kobe's 2010 would be one of the worst.

Bryant is a great player but he is a terrible Finals performer.

Its one of the biggest reasons why I consider Wade his superior.

Also please dont feed me that "its an agenda" crap.

3mikee_
09-18-2011, 11:09 PM
He will win one... Doesn't matter if LeBron might be more skilled in more areas, if Wade can put together a season where he is clearly the number one guy which I think he can he'll easily win MVP if the Heat don't suck ****.

IndiansFan337
09-18-2011, 11:21 PM
No, he will not. He should have won it a few years ago when he led the NBA in scoring and had a great year without much help.

Now that he's the second best player on his team, he won't get the support needed to win the award.

Sox72
09-18-2011, 11:32 PM
i love how people swear they cant win a ring together when they were 2 games away, and one of those games dallas shot something like 18-25 from 3pt.

Ummm, are you not reading the thread? He's talking about an MVP.

iggypop123
09-19-2011, 12:09 AM
the mvp is meaningless now adays. nash and dirk have more mvp's than kobe and shaq. its all you need to know. its all about the rings

Bruno
09-19-2011, 12:35 AM
Your focusing too much on the Gasol/Kobe thing, I couldnt care less that Kobe won the MVP over him it was just a small point I wanted to make/tell you. I can see a fair argument for Bryant winning the Award and I dont think its a big deal they gave it to him.

Please, you tried to bait me into the Bryant/Gasol 2010 Finals MVP debate; don't act like that came out of nowhere. I simply presented the numbers and the fact that you totally ignored FT's FT% and TS% in your statical analysis (rendering it unbalanced and selective). Do you know was TS% is? Have any interest in knowing?



Yes Bryant shot well from the line (he always does) does that make up for the fact that he shot terribly from the field (really terribly) over the course of the series and its arguable that his worst game in the series was the clincher?

Not a matter of "making up for it". Your biggest criticism is his scoring inefficiency. When you ignore FT% and TS% you're not looking at the big picture, you're looking at it with tunnel vision. Game seven was his worst scoring outing. Do you not take into account 15 rebounds from a two guard? He out-rebounded the Celtics starting C, PF, and SG combined in a series where the winner of the glass won every game. I'm assuming that carries no weight for you?



if I made a list of Finals performances by guards of this Decade I am sure Kobe's 2010 would be one of the worst.

I suggest you put forth the information rather than speak in generalities without any numbers to support your claim. Think about what you just wrote "I'm sure Kobe's 2010 Finals performance would be the worst out of any guards from the decade" ...on what planet is 28-8-4 a terrible performance?


Bryant is a great player but he is a terrible Finals performer.


Like when dropped 40-8-8 in game one of 2009? He joined MJ, Shaq and West as the only players to do so in finals history. You conveniently omit information when it fits your opinion.



Also please dont feed me that "its an agenda" crap.

You do it to yourself; see the bold (groundless points you made).

naps
09-19-2011, 12:58 AM
actually thats exactly what they need him to do

jordan was mvp and still dominated in the playoffs, no excuses basically

No, he has the luxury to play with LeBron freaking James and Chris Bosh. He deoen't need to play all out in the regular season. Jordan had to take that offensive load night in and night out because he didn't have anyone to avg 27 ppg for a season.

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 01:23 AM
@ Bruno

My biggest criticism of Bryant is his "shooting" inefficiency which leads to countless turn overs and wasted possessions.

TS% does not account for that unfortunately.

Even using TS% he had four good games and 3 really terrible ones.

You say I dont back up my points with Numbers but I clearly did.
28/8/4 on 40% shooting is bad.

Yes Kobe's one good Finals series came in 09 vs a team with a notorious lack of decent perimeter defenders. I give him Credit for that year, he did a good job Scoring when needed and actually involved his supporting Cast for once definitly his best Finals performance of his Career.

But if you look at his Career you see 7 Final Appearances.

out of those Appearances

One was the WOAT Finals Performance in 04

Three were terrible 00,08,10 (Was Injured in 00 so I dont really hold it against him)

Two were Average to Good 01,02 but he was being carried by Shaq in those series who was putting up UnGodly GOAT Final performances those years.

One was Great 09 (but came against a Flukey team in Orlando team that lacked perimeter defense)

As "The Man" he is 1/3 when it comes to performing well in the Finals, in Comparison Wade is 2/2.

So yea I think its fair to say over his Career Kobe has been a pretty poor Finals performer.

I like Kobe, but it sickens me how his supporters will always have an excuse for him no matter what the situation (oh he grabbed boards so he was good) or he had the eye of the tiger so it didn't matter that he bricked 20+ shots.

Cmon man.. Kobe has had some Epic playoff series but most of them came in the first 3 rounds.. just accept it.

Bruno
09-19-2011, 01:41 AM
@ Bruno

My biggest criticism of Bryant is his "shooting" inefficiency which leads to countless turn overs and wasted possessions.

TS% does not account for that unfortunately.

Even using TS% he had four good games and 3 really terrible ones.

You say I dont back up my points with Numbers but I clearly did.
28/8/4 on 40% shooting is bad.

Yes Kobe's one good Finals series came in 09 vs a team with a notorious lack of decent perimeter defenders. I give him Credit for that year, he did a good job Scoring when needed and actually involved his supporting Cast for once definitly his best Finals performance of his Career.

But if you look at his Career you see 7 Final Appearances.

out of those Appearances

One was the WOAT Finals Performance in 04

Three were terrible 00,08,10 (Was Injured in 00 so I dont really hold it against him)

Two were Average to Good 01,02 but he was being carried by Shaq in those series who was putting up UnGodly GOAT Final performances those years.

One was Great 09 (but came against a Flukey team in Orlando team that lacked perimeter defense)

As "The Man" he is 1/3 when it comes to performing well in the Finals, in Comparison Wade is 2/2.

So yea I think its fair to say over his Career Kobe has been a pretty poor Finals performer.

I like Kobe, but it sickens me how his supporters will always have an excuse for him no matter what the situation (oh he grabbed boards so he was good) or he had the eye of the tiger so it didn't matter that he bricked 20+ shots.

Cmon man.. Kobe has had some Epic playoff series but most of them came in the first 3 rounds.. just accept it.

Dude, you're all over the place. Consolidate your argument.

"Bryants shooting inefficiency leads to countless turnovers" ...what?
You should look up TS%. Your arguments will be a lot more sound, it's just a matter of broadening the horizons of your statical analysis (although I doubt you will, since it doesn't really fit into your agenda).

Orlando was the top ranked defensive team in 2009.

I've had this conversation with dozens of people, both in real life and on the forum. Your opinion isn't new (although most of this criticism has died off since he became the 4th player in league history to win back-to-back finals MVPs).

I'd be more open to debating this if your agenda wasn't as transparent as it is. You've been on the forum for a month and about 1/3rd of your posts have been dogging kobe. Again, you present numbers. But only the numbers you want to acknowledge, only numbers that fit into your narrative. That's why I don't take your statical analysis seriously, it's extremely selective and bias.

Bruno
09-19-2011, 01:44 AM
You can't have a conversation regarding scoring efficiency without discussing TS%. To do so otherwise is to use tunnel vision.

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 01:49 AM
Heh, its funny because you think I am biased but in truth I actually like Bryant.

I easily consider him the 2nd or 3rd best SG of all time.. so its clear I hold him in high regards.

I try not to be biased and I understand the value or FT's and Rebounds.

I think although your a smart intelligent guy your also obviously biased towards Kobe and will cherry pick stats the same way you accuse me of to support your arguments while ignoring the ones that make your arguments look weaker.

I just feel Kobe is a poor Finals performer in comparison to many other ATG's especially when comparing him to the best of the best like Jordan, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, (Wade) etc..

Out of 7 performances 4 were in my estimation (bad) for an ATG.

out of 3 without Prime Shaq 2 were bad.

I know you'd hate for me to make this Comparison but he reminds me alot of Lebron, really good against the weaker teams and often very bad against the better ones like Detroit and Boston.

Also having a #1 Defense doesnt mean your team has good Perimiter Defense, and when you have a player like Gasol or Shaq to distract the bigs from helping out on the Perimiter players that type of defense easily gets exposed. Just like SAS in 00 and 01 who had to use Undersized Antonio Daniels on Kobe they got torched.

Bruno
09-19-2011, 02:07 AM
and will cherry pick stats the same way you accuse me of to support your arguments while ignoring the ones that make your arguments look weaker.


Example? Go ahead and post an example of me doing so.

Remember, I never denied his poor FG% during the 2010 Finals. I only criticized you leaving FT attempts and % out of your "scoring efficiency" analysis.

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 02:16 AM
I am tired so I dont really feel like getting into a deep discussion, the fact is very few GOAT's have ever shot that poorly from the field in a Finals series.

Yes he got to the line 4-5 times a game but I dont think that's enough to be able to call it a good offensive series and other then putting in work on the defensive boards he didn't provide much else for his team and he turned the ball over alot.

He also didn't do a really great job in my estimation of getting his team mates involved and most of their points came off set-plays or offensive rebounds.

Kobe is a GOAT but when Compared to many other ATG's or even current Greats of this new Generation he isn't very impressive (when looking at Final performances).

Bruno
09-19-2011, 02:39 AM
Example? Go ahead and post an example of me doing so.


I am tired so I dont really feel like getting into a deep discussion, the fact is very few GOAT's have ever shot that poorly from the field in a Finals series.


If you're not going to respond to that request it's just another example of you making generalization without providing the quotes or statistics to back it up. :shrug:

Go look at Jordans FG% from the 96 NBA Finals. You'll be surprised by what you see.

Look, Kobe struggles from the field in the 2010 finals, everyone did (it was a defensive struggle). You're not wrong when you say he shot 40%. But you are wrong to limit the analysis of his overall scoring efficiency to FG%. You're wrong to slight all other aspects of his game (FT line efficiency included) just to hammer home the point that he was 40%.

Bryant has had plenty of brilliant NBA finals games. I'll make a blog on it, I'll post in on your wall within the next two weeks.

Chronz
09-19-2011, 01:23 PM
Larry Bird was a great Finals performer? What's birds Finals FG and 3p%?

Hes been the best player in 1 Finals IMO.

Still do you guys really think there is something mystical about the NBA finals that makes it any different from the rest of the playoffs? To me its always about matchups and the load you've carried to that point.

I notice andrew lists Kobe as only having 1 good Finals but commented that it came against weak defenders. Well all of his "bad" ones have come against EPIC defenses, why no mention of that?

Wade on the other hand has faced the likes of Jason Terry twice, against a defense who's focus was on Bron/Shaq. Not exactly identical situations.

Cool007
09-19-2011, 01:43 PM
I doubt it. Lebron's team so any success will go to Lebron's credit unless Wade picks up his stellar play even more. But I doubt it.

This.

If LeBron is injured then I don't see Heat winning anywhere near 55-games and #1 seed.

If LeBron is healthy, it's more likely LeBron that will win MVP than D-Wade.

So NO.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-19-2011, 01:57 PM
2009 was his best chance.

JordansBulls
09-19-2011, 03:05 PM
If they win 70 games and Lebron and Bosh miss more games than him then yes.

JordansBulls
09-19-2011, 03:08 PM
I doubt it. Lebron's team so any success will go to Lebron's credit unless Wade picks up his stellar play even more. But I doubt it.

How is it Lebron's team when Wade led the franchise to it's only title, something Lebron did not do?



1.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-Heat-1

http://a.espncdn.com/i/nba/miami_heat/miami_heat_graphs_05.jpg


According to our 93 NBA panelists, 44 percent believe the Miami Heat are still Dwyane Wade's squad.

For Question 1: "Miami Heat -- Whose team is it?" Our 93 NBA panelists:

• LeBron James' team: 12
• Dwyane Wade's team: 41
• James/Wade/Bosh's team: 20
• Pat Riley's team: 16
• Micky Arison's team: 0
• Heat fans' team: 0
• None of the above: 4




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isn’t going to be LeBron’s team. It is Wade’s team because he’s been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBron’s championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.

Backstabber
09-19-2011, 03:14 PM
We all have to remember MVP doesn't mean the league's best player, just like the rushing leader in football doesn't mean he's the best back. It is a truly subjective award, and perception matters more than evidence. With Lebron on his team he'll never get it.

OGMarkWahlberg
09-19-2011, 03:19 PM
MVP:I honestly think he has absolutely no shot unless Lebron suffers an injury for a huge portion of the season.

Finals MVP:Absolutely, he is clearly the better closer and he steps up in the clutch, he had one of the best finals performances I have witnessed by a SG a few years ago

Bruno
09-19-2011, 03:23 PM
Crazy thing about Wade is that he's only finished top five in MVP voting twice, and only once in the top three (2009).

Wade is 12th in MVP award shares, out of active players.


Rank Player MVP Shares
1. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
2. Tim Duncan 4.205
3. Kobe Bryant 3.763
4. LeBron James 3.502
5. Kevin Garnett 2.752
6. Steve Nash 2.423
7. Dirk Nowitzki 1.801
8. Dwight Howard 1.239
9. Derrick Rose 0.977
10. Jason Kidd 0.933
11. Chris Paul 0.866
12. Tracy McGrady 0.855
13. Dwyane Wade 0.784
14. Kevin Durant 0.652
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_active.html

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 06:45 PM
Larry Bird was a great Finals performer? What's birds Finals FG and 3p%?

Hes been the best player in 1 Finals IMO.

Still do you guys really think there is something mystical about the NBA finals that makes it any different from the rest of the playoffs? To me its always about matchups and the load you've carried to that point.

I notice andrew lists Kobe as only having 1 good Finals but commented that it came against weak defenders. Well all of his "bad" ones have come against EPIC defenses, why no mention of that?

Wade on the other hand has faced the likes of Jason Terry twice, against a defense who's focus was on Bron/Shaq. Not exactly identical situations.

Good point Chronz and I agree Boston was one of the best defensive teams in the league the years Kobe went against them in the Finals.

However I dont think thats a good excuse for Kobe or Lebron because Certain GOAT Guards have flourished against the best defensive teams.

DWade regularly carved up Detroit and Boston in the late 00's and even in this last years playoffs shouldnt he get credit for that and for his Final performances?

I do think there is something different about the Finals, its where legends are made. I think there is an added pressure at that stage to play at your best and prove your worth. It is without a doubt the biggest stage with the biggest reward for performing well in it (the trophy). Thats why Kobe's 09 to me really improved my opinion of him as a player as not only did he lead his team to the Finals but he had a really impressive performance on the Final stage. As stupid as this may sound I would have a higher opinion of Kobe if he had played at a GOAT level in the 2010 Finals and actually lost then to win and play a mediocre series.

Its no coincidence that the 3/4 best players of the past 20 years have also been the best Finals performers. (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan/Hakeem)

Matchups matter but the great ones always manage to play well no matter who they go against.

@Bruno :
Wade is young and has had injurys which has prevented him from piling up the MVP votes however he is also extremely underappreciated. I also dont put to much weight into "league awards" as they are often biased and are just the opinions of men (some biased or probably just plain stupid (or dont care) so they dont mean much to me. All-D Awards for example are a Joke, Wade has deserved 1st team for a bunch of years now and they never give it to him.


Number of seasons with DRTG lower then 105
Kobe = 5
Wade = 6

Number of seasons with 4+ Defensive WShares
Kobe = 5
Wade = 5

Total seasons played

Kobe = 15
Wade = 8

Career BPG//SPG
Kobe = .5 // 1.5
Wade = 1 // 1.7

Bruno
09-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Good point Chronz and I agree Boston was one of the best defensive teams in the league the years Kobe went against them in the Finals.

The 2004 Pistons too. One of the greatest defensive teams in league history.


However I dont think thats a good excuse for Kobe or Lebron because Certain GOAT Guards have flourished against the best defensive teams.

Example?

I ask for one because the best defensive team the Bulls matched up against in the NBA finals were the Sonics in '96. I posted on your wall Jordans struggles against them.


DWade regularly carved up Detroit and Boston in the late 00's and even in this last years playoffs shouldnt he get credit for that and for his Final performances?

What Wade did against Boston in the 2010 first round was ridiculous. Amazing performance. The only wing player fast and explosive enough to cut open their box-zones and paint-packing. LBJ was too big to expose those holes, and Kobe was too slow.


Wade is young and has had injurys which has prevented him from piling up the MVP votes however he is also extremely underappreciated. I also dont put to much weight into "league awards" as they are often biased and are just the opinions of men (some biased or probably just plain stupid (or dont care) so they dont mean much to me. All-D Awards for example are a Joke, Wade has deserved 1st team for a bunch of years now and they never give it to him.

I mentioned MVP award shares as a point of interest, not as an accolade to be used against Wade. Just staying how political the award is, and that even if Wade doesn't get a regular season MVP, that it doesn't take away from his greatness.

Randy Marsh
09-19-2011, 08:10 PM
He's got a chance, but being on the same team as the best player in the NBA won't help.

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 08:29 PM
Example?


DWade :lift:

@Bruno :
Yes Jordan shot poorly in that series and its not a bad example when using it to make the point your trying to get across.
Jordan did however average to get 8+ assists in 2 of the 3 games he shot poorly in and Kobe did not do aswell directly getting his teammates involved in the games he shot poorly.

After giving it some more thought I may have been a bit over critical about Bryants 2010 series, it wasnt as bad as I said however I still dont think it was a great performance by any means and I am not sure I'd call it a good one either.

Lakersfan2483
09-19-2011, 08:54 PM
DWade :lift:

@Bruno :
Yes Jordan shot poorly in that series and its not a bad example when using it to make the point your trying to get across.
Jordan did however average to get 8+ assists in 2 of the 3 games he shot poorly in and Kobe did not do aswell directly getting his teammates involved in the games he shot poorly.

After giving it some more thought I may have been a bit over critical about Bryants 2010 series, it wasnt as bad as I said however I still dont think it was a great performance by any means and I am not sure I'd call it a good one either.

Numbers wise, his 2010 finals perfomance was good in terms of averaging 28ppg, 4apg and 8 rpg. However, his shooting pct. was down considerably compared to the earlier rounds in the playoffs (See Phx.)

His best finals perfomances came against New Jersey and Orlando. His worst finals was in 04 against Detroit. He was solid against Indiana despite a major ankle injury, solid against Philly (he actually played better against better teams when he faced San Antonio and Sacramento during those yrs).

Lakersfan2483
09-19-2011, 09:03 PM
To answer the question, no, I don't see Wade winning a regular season mvp. It isn't because he's not good enough though, I just think teamming up with Bron and Bosh will definitely hinder his chances over the next few yrs. I actually think Dwight, Durant and Rose will battle for the award for the next few seasons.

Bruno
09-19-2011, 11:22 PM
DWade :lift:

haha, no dude. The key element of your point was against elite defenses. Wade dominated the 2006 Finals, you'll never hear me say otherwise. But Dallas was not an elite defense. They were the 11th ranked defensive team of the 2006 season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2006.html


Yes Jordan shot poorly in that series and its not a bad example when using it to make the point your trying to get across.

No it's not. You said none of the all-time greats struggled from the field like Bryant did in 2010. I gave you two examples of MJ doing the same thing against the '96 Sonics (the #2 ranked defense during the '96 season), that's all.



Jordan did however average to get 8+ assists in 2 of the 3 games he shot poorly in and Kobe did not do aswell directly getting his teammates involved in the games he shot poorly.

Yeah, he distributed in better numbers. Kobe rebounded the ball better though, lets not ignore that.


After giving it some more thought I may have been a bit over critical about Bryants 2010 series, it wasnt as bad as I said however I still dont think it was a great performance by any means and I am not sure I'd call it a good one either.

:cheers:

Andrew32
09-19-2011, 11:32 PM
@Bruno :

In regards to that DWade comment.

My point was that DWade consistently performed well against the Pistons and the Celtics the two teams Kobe struggled the most against.

Kobe did hit the defensive boards in the 2010 Series but I dont find as much value in that as I would in getting Assists nor am I really looking for that kind of production from my shooting guard. I am sure that helped his team out and may have prevented a few turnovers but im very hesitant to use that as a reason to significantly prop up his performance.

Yeah the 06 Mavs were not an "Elite Defensive Team" although they weren't terrible either and they did have some good perimeter defenders like J.Howard and D. Christie.
However neither of them were quick enough to stay infront of Wade and they couldn't apply too much defensive pressure on him due to Shaqs presence down low.

Certainly the 06 Mavs aren't on par defensively with the late 00 Celtics.

However DWade also torched the 11 Mavs who I think were a great defensive team and had Elite Defenders at 3/5 positions with Chandler, Marion and Kidd.

Bruno
09-21-2011, 05:57 PM
@Bruno :
In regards to that DWade comment.

Andrew to quote, click on the quote box on the bottom right of a given posters post.


My point was that DWade consistently performed well against the Pistons and the Celtics the two teams Kobe struggled the most against.

Had good performances against them? Yes. Consistently? Not in 2005. Here are three games from Wades match-up against Detroit in 2005:

Game 1, May 23rd 2005:
WADE- 16 points, 7/25 FG's (28%), TS% .309, 6r, 5a, 2s, 3b, 2 TO's.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505230MIA.html

Game 5, June 2nd 2005:
WADE- 15 points, 4/9 FG's (44%), TS% .59, 3r, 2a, 5s, 1 TO.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200506020MIA.html
*Injury

*Didn't play game six.

Game 7, June 6th 2005:
WADE- 20 points, 7/20 (35%), TS%- .433, 1r, 4a, 1s, 5 TO's.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200506060MIA.html

So those are three examples from the same series where Wade was seriously limited by Detroits defense. Did he kill them on occasion (yes, like in games two and three). Consistently? No. * If I remember correctly Wade began dealing with hip issues during game five.

Wade had far better success against Detroit in 2006. He only struggled during one game, and that was game six, the close-out game:

Wade- 14 points, 6/15 FGA, TS% .441
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200606020MIA.html

You also have to put those given defenses into context. Bryant faced those Pistons at their absolute peak as a defensive unit. Their team defensive rating dropped off drastically following the 2004 Finals:

2004 Pistons defensive rating: 95.4
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2004.html

2005 Pistons defensive rating: 101.2
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2005.html

2006 Pistons defensive rating: 103.1
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.html

Dwyane Wade also matched up against those Pistons with a more fit and more focuses Shaquile Oneal. Shaq didn't get his head back into the game until after paring up with Wade for his last hurrah as a dominant post presence.

Wade absolutely burned the Celtics in 2010 (despite his team losing the series 4-1).


Kobe did hit the defensive boards in the 2010 Series but I dont find as much value in that as I would in getting Assists nor am I really looking for that kind of production from my shooting guard.

This is where you have to look at the context of a given series. In a series where the winner of the glass wins every single game, why wouldn't you "find as much value in it as you would in getting assists". You couldn't be any more wrong when you say "I'm not really looking for that kind of production from my shooting guard". In a series where the winner of the glass wins every game, that's exactly what you're looking to get out of every player, regardless of position. Bryant pulled down 26 rebounds in games six and seven combined, both Laker victories. Context.


I am sure that helped his team out and may have prevented a few turnovers but im very hesitant to use that as a reason to significantly prop up his performance.

You should.


Yeah the 06 Mavs were not an "Elite Defensive Team" although they weren't terrible either and they did have some good perimeter defenders like J.Howard and D. Christie.


The 2006 Mavericks had an identical defensive rating to the 2011 Mavericks, 105.0
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2006.html

Difference being that in 2011 it was good enough for 8th. In 2006 it was only good enough for 11th league wide (not in the top 3rd of the league).

You need to check your facts on Doug Christie too. He was 35 years old, played seven regular season games, and zero playoff games for the 2006 Mavs. Certainly not an elite defender for them.


Certainly the 06 Mavs aren't on par defensively with the late 00 Celtics.

Or the 2004 Pistons. Not even close.


However DWade also torched the 11 Mavs who I think were a great defensive team and had Elite Defenders at 3/5 positions with Chandler, Marion and Kidd.

They weren't a great defensive team. They were good, they were sound. Not great. Their defensive rating for 2011 was 105.0 (a full ten points higher than the 2004 Pistons). Their rating ranked 8th in the NBA for the 2011 season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html

He torched them except for the close-out game, game six when the Heat lost at home:
WADE- 17 points, 6/16 (37.5%), TS% .445, 8 a, 6r, 5 TO's.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106120MIA.html

Andrew32
09-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Again.. you seem to be cherry picking Certain Game/Stats to try and make a point when it doesn't make sense to do so.

Things like saying Wade played poorly in certain games in 05 when it was only his second season and your probably only picking the games where he played poorly against them. Kobe in his 2nd season certainly wouldn't have been able to perform at the level of 05 Wade.

Wade in the 05 (until his injury) and 06 Playoffs was Dominant against the Detroit D and he's been consistently dominant against Boston also most recently in the playoffs.

For reference

2nd Year Wade Playoff Numbers.
27PPG, 7APG, 6RPG, 48% FG

3rd & 4th Year Kobe Playoff Numbers. (similar amount of minutes)
20PPG, 5APG, 5RPG, 43% FG

My Main Critiques around Bryants 10 Performance are he did a poor job involving his teammates and he shot poorly over the course of the series.
He also saved his worst performance for the Clinching Game. I think in Certain games he played well and helped his team out alot (even carried them) but in other games he caused his team more harm then good with his ball dominant play.

Wade was probably the best player in the Finals last season and he ran out of Gas after carrying the Heat offensively for most of the series so I dont give him to much flack for playing subpar in the last game of the series.

The 11 Mavs are actually an Elite Defensive team, I dont think the late 00 Celtics were much better defensively. You saw how Kobe performed against the Mavs defense last year in the 1st Round.

I think the late 00 Celtics have become a tad bit overrated defensively, in terms of overall defense I think they are slightly worse then some of the Early 00 SAS Teams and much worse then teams like the 04 Pistons and the 96 Sonics. The 04 Pistons were a great defensive team from top to bottom and were well coached.

In the big picture when looking how Wade and Kobe both performed against the Elite Defensive teams specifically Detroit and Boston Wade has a very sizable advantage. Wade (especially in the playoffs) seems to thrive against those teams and often puts up dominant performances against them while Kobe tends to play far below his standards and his shooting % especially suffers aswell as his all around game.

I think its a very fair Critique of Bryant to say that against good defensive teams he is often at best "inconsistent" the (04, 08, and imo 10) are good examples of this.

Bryants game is scoring he is a scorer and both Detroit and Boston did a good job of limiting his effectiveness in that area of his game.

Bruno
09-22-2011, 04:19 AM
Again.. you seem to be cherry picking Certain Game/Stats to try and make a point when it doesn't make sense to do so

1. Again? Like the first time you made that claim and couldn't provide and quote or evidence of myself doing so? Before stating "again" why not go back and provide an example like I asked the first time (which you didn't do)?

2. Not in the slightest. I provided three games where he struggled (because you said he didn't) while acknowledging that he killed it game two and three, as well as all of 2006 (spare game six), as well as Boston in 2010. I paid him his dues, you just have selective reading.


Things like saying Wade played poorly in certain games in 05 when it was only his second season and your probably only picking the games where he played poorly against them. Kobe in his 2nd season certainly wouldn't have been able to perform at the level of 05 Wade.

You fail to put things into context. Bryant was 19 in his second season. Wade was 23. Big difference; context.


Wade in the 05 (until his injury) and 06 Playoffs was Dominant against the Detroit D and he's been consistently dominant against Boston also most recently in the playoffs.

As I eluded to multiple times in the post you quoted (both the injury and his stellar play in '06 and '10).




He also saved his worst performance for the Clinching Game.

His worst game in regards to scoring efficiency.


Wade was probably the best player in the Finals last season and he ran out of Gas after carrying the Heat offensively for most of the series so I dont give him to much flack for playing subpar in the last game of the series.

No he wasn't, Dirk was.

You give Bryant flack for playing sub-par in a game seven, but not Wades game six because of his personal fatigue? Surly you can recognize the double-standard within your argument. It's okay to have a certain point of view, but when your points conflict you lose credibility.

Bryant played 289 minutes over seven games in the 2010 NBA finals (41.2 mpg).
Wade played 233 minutes over six game in the 2011 NBA finals (38.8 mpg).

Tell me, who had greater justification for being "fatigued" in the close-out game based off total minutes and minutes per game. How can you make such a hypocritical claim and still have faith in your argument?


The 11 Mavs are actually an Elite Defensive team, I dont think the late 00 Celtics were much better defensively. You saw how Kobe performed against the Mavs defense last year in the 1st Round.

The numbers and facts (team defensive rating) speak otherwise. It's your choice to ignore the facts that have been presented.

2008 Celtics defensive rating: 98.9
2010 Celtics defensive rating: 103.8
2011 Mavericks defensive rating: 105.0

I suppose I'm distorting those numbers to push forth my agenda too, right?


I think the late 00 Celtics have become a tad bit overrated defensively, in terms of overall defense I think they are slightly worse then some of the Early 00 SAS Teams and much worse then teams like the 04 Pistons and the 96 Sonics. The 04 Pistons were a great defensive team from top to bottom and were well coached.

Yet you use Wades performance against them as an example of his production against elite defenses? You can't have it both ways.

The 2008 team was superior to the 2010 team defensivley. The '08 team hold their own against those other defenses you listed (although I'd hesitate to call them better), but they're right there.

The 2004 Pistons weren't great defensively. They were elite, unlike the 2011 Mavs.


In the big picture when looking how Wade and Kobe both performed against the Elite Defensive teams specifically Detroit and Boston Wade has a very sizable advantage. Wade (especially in the playoffs) seems to thrive against those teams and often puts up dominant performances against them while Kobe tends to play far below his standards and his shooting % especially suffers aswell as his all around game.

You're yet to address the difference between the '04 Pistons, and the '05 & '06 Pistons defensively. I outlined it very clearly in my post, with the numbers. By the numbers the '05 and '06 were pedestrian compared to the '04 team (these are facts outlined in statistics that can not be debated).


Bryants game is scoring he is a scorer and both Detroit and Boston did a good job of limiting his effectiveness in that area of his game.
Again, you refuse to address the significance of rebounding in a series where the winning of the glass wins every single game. There more to the game than scoring. Bryant knew this, and eluded to it in multiple post-game interviews throughout the finals. He spent energy that he could have used on offense to make himself more efficient to hit the glass hard. Again, you don't out-rebound the other teams starting C, PF and SG in a game seven by luck. Takes hard work and dedication to the gritty, less glamorous work. If anything you should be praising his desire and ability to pull down 26 rebounds over the final two games (13 rebounds a game from a 6'6 shooting guard). Would it kill you to give credit where credit is due?

I'm checking out of this back-and-forth. :cheers:

Anilyzer
09-22-2011, 04:40 AM
Do you think the voters will finally give him just kind of a life time achievement vote kind of thing like Kobe got? It will be a shame if he never wins MVP. how many years does he have to average 26, 6, and 5 until he wins it???

Uhhhhh, Kobe actually should've won the MVP at least 4 times already... so that comparison is kind of off-base.

However, it is understandable why he didn't win all those MVPs... there was the shadow of the unjust rape accusations still hanging over him, and the league has to think about it's image. So... Kobe will settle for a fistful of championship rings.

As for D-Wade winning an MVP, it's not impossible. He is fantastically talented. However, he seems to kind of freelance or something; he's not a full on repetitive machine like maybe you have to be to get real MVP numbers on the board. Also, he is probably somewhat overshadowed by Lebron in Miami now, and that effect will only increase once Lebron has a monster season or two.

But yeah, maybe.

Sly Guy
09-22-2011, 09:20 AM
MVP has been "best player on the best team" for quite a while now. CP3 and Kobe were neck and neck all season and Lakers edged NO for the best record so it went to Kobe. Had NO been no. 1 in the West then Paul would've won it.......

I doubt this very much. OP was right, it was a lifetime achievement. Not that Kobe doesn't deserve one, but anyone can see CP3 was more important to that NOH team than Kobe was to that all-star cast in LA.

Andrew32
09-22-2011, 12:11 PM
You fail to put things into context. Bryant was 19 in his second season.
Wade was 23. Big difference; context.

No he wasn't, Dirk was.

You give Bryant flack for playing sub-par in a game seven, but not Wades game six because of his personal fatigue? Surly you can recognize the double-standard within your argument. It's okay to have a certain point of view, but when your points conflict you lose credibility.

The numbers and facts (team defensive rating) speak otherwise. It's your choice to ignore the facts that have been presented.

I suppose I'm distorting those numbers to push forth my agenda too, right?

Yet you use Wades performance against them as an example of his production against elite defenses? You can't have it both ways.

Again, you refuse to address the significance of rebounding in a series where the winning of the glass wins every single game. Would it kill you to give credit where credit is due?

I'm checking out of this back-and-forth. :cheers:

I compared Wades 2nd season to Bryants 3rd and 4th seasons Combined Actually.

You can make a strong Argument DWade was the best player over the course of the series same with Dirk its certainly not clear cut.

I give both players Flack for playing subpar in the Clincher however Wade was significantly better over the course of the series and his bad game to close it out wasn't nearly as bad as Bryants.

So what if Dallas DRating is slightly lower then Bostons that doesn't mean Dallas doesn't have the tools to be an equally good defensive team and they raised their level at that end in the entire playoffs. Not saying it doesn't matter but defense comes down to personnel and Dallas certainly had the personnel of an Elite or at the very worst a very good Defensive team with Chandler, Marion and Kidd.

I never said the Celtics weren't an Elite defense only they aren't some legendary defense and there have been better ones in this Decade.

I already gave Kobe credit for the rebounding and the idea that he was "saving energy" to hit the glass instead of scoring is ridiculous considering the amount of shots he took.

nickdymez
09-22-2011, 12:14 PM
I doubt it. Lebron's team so any success will go to Lebron's credit unless Wade picks up his stellar play even more. But I doubt it.

Give me a legit reason why its "Lebrons team". When Wade already bought a tittle and is still in his prime...

Andrew32
09-22-2011, 12:16 PM
In terms of heart and soul its obviously DWades team he has already (with Shaq) brought the team a Title.

Both DWade and Lebron will get "Full Credit" if they play well in the entire playoffs and bring the team a ring. The only way either one will fail to get Credit is if they play poorly and are carried by the other Star.

JordansBulls
09-27-2011, 02:43 PM
We all have to remember MVP doesn't mean the league's best player

Who said it did? All it says is that you had a case for it.

Avenged
09-27-2011, 05:51 PM
Give me a legit reason why its "Lebrons team". When Wade already bought a tittle and is still in his prime...

Because Lebron is the better player.. And is about to enter his prime as well.. I'm not going to argue about it, if people think it's Wade's team then fine, you can definitely argue it. You can also argue it being Lebron's, it's not far fetched to believe it. But when it comes down to MVP's, Lebron James will be the one getting the majority of the credit because he puts up the better numbers.

PinnacleFlash
09-27-2011, 08:00 PM
regular season mvp: Lebron
playoffs/finals mvp: wade

playoffs/finals > regular season

wade > Lebron

Team*Chicago
09-27-2011, 10:16 PM
:p Nope!

sixer04fan
09-28-2011, 08:51 PM
If Lebron gets injured and he leads the Heat in an MVP type season, then yes.

If Lebron doesn't get injured, then no.

ChiSox219
09-28-2011, 09:22 PM
Because Lebron is the better player.. And is about to enter his prime as well.. I'm not going to argue about it, if people think it's Wade's team then fine, you can definitely argue it. You can also argue it being Lebron's, it's not far fetched to believe it. But when it comes down to MVP's, Lebron James will be the one getting the majority of the credit because he puts up the better numbers.

Why do you say Lebron is about to enter his prime?

AIRMAR72
09-29-2011, 02:21 AM
You can't have a conversation regarding scoring efficiency without discussing TS%. To do so otherwise is to use tunnel vision.

look kid..kobe is almost FINISH pau is the main reason along with the refs and artist for the laker victory in 2010 even tho tobe played well in playoffs rdz but what happen to the lakers in 2011 playoffs when PAU decide not to play the whole damn team fell apart and what did ratface TObe CRYant DO....NOTHING!!! but get shut down by oldman jason kidd kobe didnt look A BLK MAMBA ARE ANY THOSES SELF GIVEN BOGUS NAMES after being MVP the previous yr

Bruno
09-29-2011, 02:35 AM
look kid..kobe is almost FINISH pau is the main reason along with the refs and artist for the laker victory in 2010 even tho tobe played well in playoffs rdz but what happen to the lakers in 2011 playoffs when PAU decide not to play the whole damn team fell apart and what did ratface TObe CRYant DO....NOTHING!!! but get shut down by oldman jason kidd kobe didnt look A BLK MAMBA ARE ANY THOSES SELF GIVEN BOGUS NAMES after being MVP the previous yr

:clap:

PinnacleFlash
09-29-2011, 03:42 AM
Best player in the NBA and the best player on the Miami Heat.