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JordansBulls
09-16-2011, 04:29 PM
Voting for #35 has concluded and PSD's Official #35 NBA Player of all time is....

Jason Kidd

Top 3 Voting:

Jason Kidd = 27 votes
Allen Iverson = 23 votes
Kevin Mchale = 7 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)
30. Patrick Ewing (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649815)
31. Bob Cousy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=650318)
32. Walt Frazier (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651181)
33. Clyde Drexler (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651737)
34. Gary Payton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652073)
35. Jason Kidd (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652644)


Voting will now begin for the #36 NBA Player All Time


These are the players that can be voted for the #36 spot.

Willis Reed
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
Artis Gilmore
Hal Greer

Hellcrooner
09-16-2011, 04:53 PM
undecided yet.

mchale/worhty/thurmond/walton hold close merits.

PleaseBeNice
09-16-2011, 04:54 PM
iverson

JordansBulls
09-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Vote: Bill Walton
Has a league and finals mvp. Brought the Portland franchise there only title in league history and beat a prime Kareem and prime Dr J in the playoffs without HCA in order to win the title.

LakeShowRaider
09-16-2011, 05:13 PM
36-40 for me in no order. Miller, Wilkins, Iverson and Worthy

NYKalltheway
09-16-2011, 05:18 PM
36-40 for me in no order. Miller, Wilkins, Iverson and Worthy

why not McHale?

NYKalltheway
09-16-2011, 05:50 PM
Vote: Bill Walton
Has a league and finals mvp. Brought the Portland franchise there only title in league history and beat a prime Kareem and prime Dr J in the playoffs without HCA in order to win the title.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vTGoG53bF4

NYKalltheway
09-16-2011, 06:00 PM
I wanna say Willis Reed... but why throw my vote to waste?

Knick Killer
09-16-2011, 06:24 PM
Undecided... Hard to choose between George Gervin and Kevin McHale.

Hellcrooner
09-16-2011, 06:36 PM
Undecided... Hard to choose between George Gervin and Kevin McHale.

kvin

Chacarron
09-16-2011, 06:47 PM
George Gervin.

mightybosstone
09-16-2011, 07:24 PM
I really am a little surprised that more people aren't giving credit to Walton. I realize his career was insanely short by comparison to most of these players, but he was perhaps the best player in basketball for two years and gave Portland its only championship. How many other players on this list can say that? Nash and AI won MVPs, but all of those awards are seriously questionable, neither of them was a top 3 player over their time and neither ever won a title. Unseld, Reed, Cowens and McAdoo all won MVPs, but none of them were as talented or as dominant as Walton was those two seasons. In fact, Unseld was practically a one-hit wonder and Reed played only 182 more games than Walton did.

I understand why McHale is being considered, and he would be my next pick after Walton. And Gervin had insane scoring ability, but hardly any postseason success to speak of. He never played in the NBA Finals. And if you consider him this high, then I don't see why someone like Tracy McGrady would be far behind him...

naps
09-16-2011, 07:45 PM
How many times Iverson got the 2nd place again? That alone says something about these threads. I pretty much lost my respect on this list after top 10 anyway. So no big deal for me.

NYKalltheway
09-16-2011, 07:56 PM
How many times Iverson got the 2nd place again? That alone says something about these threads. I pretty much lost my respect on this list after top 10 anyway. So no big deal for me.

Yes, it says that there's a bunch of people that don't know much about the NBA and believe it begun in 1998, while there's those who are slightly more apparently that know their **** and would prefer ANY BETTER guy ahead of Iverson... If fanboys stopped voting, then we'd have normal rankings.

Hustlenomics
09-16-2011, 08:09 PM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season


VOTE: ALLEN IVERSON

3mikee_
09-16-2011, 08:12 PM
Iverson.

KnicksorBust
09-16-2011, 08:14 PM
You could make a legit case that McHale is the best offensive and defensive player left on the board. I'm disappointed that Willis Reed is still on the board but I don't think that will last long either.

xM1GSx
09-16-2011, 08:17 PM
mchale

Swashcuff
09-16-2011, 08:26 PM
You could make a legit case that McHale is the best offensive and defensive player left on the board. I'm disappointed that Willis Reed is still on the board but I don't think that will last long either.

Amongst big men I'd argue that Gilmore was better offensively and Thurmond defensively.

I just realize Dwight isn't on the board. How did that happen? :confused:

KnicksorBust
09-16-2011, 08:34 PM
Amongst big men I'd argue that Gilmore was better offensively and Thurmond defensively.

I just realize Dwight isn't on the board. How did that happen? :confused:

Neither were as versatile as McHale but neither is a bad choice. Statistics certainly support your viewpoint (especially Gilmore).

Korman12
09-16-2011, 08:34 PM
McHale

Geargo Wallace
09-16-2011, 08:42 PM
McHale for me. Gervin and Dominique are coming off the board soon.

Swashcuff
09-16-2011, 08:44 PM
Neither were as versatile as McHale but neither is a bad choice. Statistics certainly support your viewpoint (especially Gilmore).

Though Thurmond wasn't as versatile his individual D and overall impact on that end was immeasurable, he was lil a better Dwight Howard on D. I don't trust the stats that are available for defensive players of those eras, I mean after all Larry Bird has more career defensive WS than McHale and we all know that Bird is not superior to Kevin on that end of the floor.

Stuckey#3
09-16-2011, 09:15 PM
Allen Iverson... and at this point if you are picking McHale just to keep AI out I feel bad for you; because you are obviously either spiteful or not playing with a full deck of cards.
Rediculous. If you were all going to team up against AI you should have at least voted Kidd in front of Payton.

Geargo Wallace
09-16-2011, 09:45 PM
Allen Iverson... and at this point if you are picking McHale just to keep AI out I feel bad for you; because you are obviously either spiteful or not playing with a full deck of cards.
Rediculous. If you were all going to team up against AI you should have at least voted Kidd in front of Payton.

I guarantee I'm older and more educated than you. And yes, I voted McHale.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-16-2011, 09:48 PM
Allen Iverson... and at this point if you are picking McHale just to keep AI out I feel bad for you; because you are obviously either spiteful or not playing with a full deck of cards.
Rediculous. If you were all going to team up against AI you should have at least voted Kidd in front of Payton.

But that's all I've been hearing from you.

You haven't given jack **** as to why Iverson is better.

Hustlenomics
09-16-2011, 09:52 PM
There's been more reason as to why Iverson should be picked than the people he's better than getting voted ahead of him just to "prevent him from winning"

Raps18-19 Champ
09-16-2011, 09:55 PM
There's been more reason as to why Iverson should be picked than the people he's better than getting voted ahead of him just to "prevent him from winning"

If people are voting against him, why does it matter?

Everyone voted over him has been better to begin with.

Blame Iverson for not being as good as the other guys. :laugh2:

bagwell368
09-16-2011, 11:58 PM
Plug for McHale. Bird always got to play the weaker offensive forward - which builds up his DWS to a ridiculous degree (which they admit they do not have a way to capture).

McHale could guard AS level explosive small 3's and rugged 4's (Barkley says McHale is the best player he ever played against), and even spent some memorable time dominating Kareem and other Centers in small bursts. Not only do it, but win defensive #1 awards over and over.

McHale was one of the 4-5-6 best low post scorers of all time. Just watch some tape.

He has the only 60% FG and 80% FT season in NBA history.

Since 1966 in Boston, only Bird, and KG have ever had seasons as good or better then McHale's 1985-1986.

McHale was really coming into his own in the 1984-1987 time frame, but the Celts were getting old, and Bias tossed it away. McHale broke his foot and played on it in a vain attempt to win the title, he was never the same. But his peak on both offense and defense stands up a lot better then many players with much longer careers.

Easily the best two way player not voted in already, IMO.

KingPosey
09-17-2011, 12:41 AM
It drives me ****ing crazy that Kemp and Walton have been on this list for several picks and not Mitch Richmond. Walton was too injured in the nba, and Kemp peaked really fast, and never peaked THAT high to begin with.

KingPosey
09-17-2011, 12:42 AM
Plug for McHale. Bird always got to play the weaker offensive forward - which builds up his DWS to a ridiculous degree (which they admit they do not have a way to capture).

McHale could guard AS level explosive small 3's and rugged 4's (Barkley says McHale is the best player he ever played against), and even spent some memorable time dominating Kareem and other Centers in small bursts. Not only do it, but win defensive #1 awards over and over.

McHale was one of the 4-5-6 best low post scorers of all time. Just watch some tape.

He has the only 60% FG and 80% FT season in NBA history.

Since 1966 in Boston, only Bird, and KG have ever had seasons as good or better then McHale's 1985-1986.

McHale was really coming into his own in the 1984-1987 time frame, but the Celts were getting old, and Bias tossed it away. McHale broke his foot and played on it in a vain attempt to win the title, he was never the same. But his peak on both offense and defense stands up a lot better then many players with much longer careers.

Easily the best two way player not voted in already, IMO.

Jordan said Mitch Richmond was the best player he ever faced, so lets get him on here.

Hellcrooner
09-17-2011, 12:51 AM
It drives me ****ing crazy that Kemp and Walton have been on this list for several picks and not Mitch Richmond. Walton was too injured in the nba, and Kemp peaked really fast, and never peaked THAT high to begin with.

kemp shouldnt be there.

Walton , want it or not lead his team to a ring.

Stuckey#3
09-17-2011, 01:03 AM
I guarantee I'm older and more educated than you. And yes, I voted McHale.

What the **** are you talking about? Neither age or education were brought into this discussion... My post was about spiteful voting; which IMO is an immature behavioral pattern there college boy.

If you have to bring age or education into an NBA forum discussion I think you might have some self esteem or manic issues going on.

Stuckey#3
09-17-2011, 01:06 AM
Wow... I thought Michael Jordan's sidekick was high. Now we have Larry Bird's sidekick going ahead of arguably the best scorer in league history? **** it lets vote James Worthy #37.

Greet
09-17-2011, 01:22 AM
Derrick Rose.

Won a league MVP and took a talentless Bulls team to the playoffs while carrying the team on his back and doing everything. Super efficient scorer and easily the best PG in the NBA right now, and possibly the best PG to ever play the game. He's the next Jordan and it's disrespect that he's behind the likes of Jason Kidd, all Kidd did was pass/play defense/get rebounds etc.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-17-2011, 01:26 AM
Derrick Rose.

Won a league MVP and took a talentless Bulls team to the playoffs while carrying the team on his back and doing everything. Super efficient scorer and easily the best PG in the NBA right now, and possibly the best PG to ever play the game. He's the next Jordan and it's disrespect that he's behind the likes of Jason Kidd, all Kidd did was pass/play defense/get rebounds etc.

Win.

Hellcrooner
09-17-2011, 01:37 AM
Wow... I thought Michael Jordan's sidekick was high. Now we have Larry Bird's sidekick going ahead of arguably the best scorer in league history? **** it lets vote James Worthy #37.

īlol.


remove the "sideckicks" and see them ; jordan, Bird, Magic getting 0 to 1 Rings.


oh btw , funny fact.

North Carolina team, first 80s.

Michael jordan was considered JAMES WORHTYS SIDECKICK

Avenged
09-17-2011, 01:39 AM
Derrick Rose.

Won a league MVP and took a talentless Bulls team to the playoffs while carrying the team on his back and doing everything. Super efficient scorer and easily the best PG in the NBA right now, and possibly the best PG to ever play the game. He's the next Jordan and it's disrespect that he's behind the likes of Jason Kidd, all Kidd did was pass/play defense/get rebounds etc.

Agreed.

Geargo Wallace
09-17-2011, 01:45 AM
What the **** are you talking about? Neither age or education were brought into this discussion... My post was about spiteful voting; which IMO is an immature behavioral pattern there college boy.

If you have to bring age or education into an NBA forum discussion I think you might have some self esteem or manic issues going on.

To blame spite on not voting for Iverson is garbage. I love AI as much as the next guy, but he's not nearly as good as some of the ppl listed. It's immature to think scoring titles and a weak MVP award were good enough reasons to put him ahead of such great players easily.

Geargo Wallace
09-17-2011, 01:46 AM
Derrick Rose.

Won a league MVP and took a talentless Bulls team to the playoffs while carrying the team on his back and doing everything. Super efficient scorer and easily the best PG in the NBA right now, and possibly the best PG to ever play the game. He's the next Jordan and it's disrespect that he's behind the likes of Jason Kidd, all Kidd did was pass/play defense/get rebounds etc.

yeah true bro.

Chronz
09-17-2011, 01:50 AM
How many times Iverson got the 2nd place again? That alone says something about these threads. I pretty much lost my respect on this list after top 10 anyway. So no big deal for me.

That doesnt stop you from voting, and who cares how many times he comes second?

Hellcrooner
09-17-2011, 03:05 AM
btw, i want to nominate the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

He got so much gameeeeeee

see? the highlit reels never lie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qntr8CE-ITI

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 07:22 AM
lol at Iverson being the best scorer of all time when you got guys like Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin and Bob McAdoo still on the board :laugh2:

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 09:22 AM
Jordan said Mitch Richmond was the best player he ever faced, so lets get him on here.

Could you find us the link where Jordan said Mitch was the best player he ever faced?

You keep mentioning Mitch and saying its such an injustice but you've haven't done much else to convince anyone why he should be up there. I don't know if you realise that you're not doing anything by just saying he should have been voted already. You didn't even nominate to be on the poll so how could he be voted? :confused:

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 09:40 AM
I think he did nominate him at some point, perhaps even twice, can't be sure.

But what exactly do you wanna hear? All you want is freaking numbers? :p Basketball is not a statistical game, the sooner you all realize it the better. Comparing players is awkward, but statistics do not help especially when you talk about different eras. Compare players on the same boxscore all you want, that's probably the best use of statistics in basketball.

I strongly agree that Mitch Richmond was immense, but there are other names out there that were better imo. Richmond today would have been a much better version of Brandon Roy's best years

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 09:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbtn4B5GH-M

Check here for Mitch Richmond (quotes by others as well)

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 09:55 AM
I think he did nominate him at some point, perhaps even twice, can't be sure.

But what exactly do you wanna hear? All you want is freaking numbers? :p Basketball is not a statistical game, the sooner you all realize it the better. Comparing players is awkward, but statistics do not help especially when you talk about different eras. Compare players on the same boxscore all you want, that's probably the best use of statistics in basketball.

I strongly agree that Mitch Richmond was immense, but there are other names out there that were better imo. Richmond today would have been a much better version of Brandon Roy's best years

So wait you rather here me say.

Allen Iverson was super quick no one could guard him in the league he was a freak athlete tra la la la? The very same can be said for any great player. The aid of statistical dominance is what sets them apart. We can talk about skill for days weeks months years but one opinion over another doesn't make it wrong or right. Statistics do not help YOU. It's no surprise that the best players rank the best in most of these stats. That's not just a coincidence its a reflection of their great play.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you I don't base my entire arguments on stats and if you actually read my posts you'd know that, but all you see is the stats that I post and think that's all I look at.

He did not nominate Mitch go through the threads he's been voting Mitch all along when his name wasn't even on the poll. I told him to nominate him.

Without the use of a single stat (scoring, rebounding, passing, shooting etc are all measured by stats so that can't be included) let's here your case for Mitch Richmond.

Lastly Kareem once said that Earl Manigault was the best player he ever saw play. Do you think I should put that in this argument as my lone case for The GOAT or should I at least attempt to be more comprehensive?

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Video in previous post -> case for Mitch Richmond

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 10:04 AM
Video in previous post -> case for Mitch Richmond

No. I've watched that video quite a few times and that gives me no reason to believe that he's deserving of a vote any time soon. I guess I should do the same for A.I. then. :eyebrow: Try again. Answer the questions.

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 10:12 AM
It's not a matter of neutralizing the effect of stats. You keep missing the point.

Mitch Richmond's FG% cannot be translated with Dwayne Wade's FG%. Is that really hard to comprehend?

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 10:19 AM
It's not a matter of neutralizing the effect of stats. You keep missing the point.

Mitch Richmond's FG% cannot be translated with Dwayne Wade's FG%. Is that really hard to comprehend?

So what if we compare is to league average during their time in the league.

Would that make any sense to you? I can use some facts in the Gasol vs McHale discussion for you in this case.

Gasol compared to league average (TS%)

02: +4.6
03: +5.1
04: +2.6
05: +5.3
06: +2.0
07: +5.2
08: +5.4
09: +7.3
10: +5.0
11: +4.8

League average TS% over this time was 53.3%. Gasol's TS% over this time was 57.9% (+4.6; 731 games).

Compare this to McHale's best 10-year stretch:

82: +3.0
83: +4.2
84: +6.2
85: +7.4
86: +8.2
87: +11.7
88: +11.8
89: +7.1
90: +8.6
91: +7.2

League average TS% over this time was 53.8%. McHale's TS% over this stretch was 61.6% (+7.8; 762 games).

Would comparing the %s to their peers at the time be more accurate in your opinion?

tredigs
09-17-2011, 10:29 AM
I haven't been voting much in the last 10 threads because the AI talk turned me off - but I'm going to start voting for him here simply for the fact that his argument is absolutely valid at this point and I'm ****ing sick of coming into these threads and seeing the discussion dominated by that.

There's great debates to be had after that happens.

Knicks21
09-17-2011, 10:34 AM
Vote: McHale, playing both sides of the ball is incredibly important to the NBA forum.

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 10:45 AM
Swash, you keep pouring out numbers out that mean nothing... The FG/TS whatever you call it, IS DIFFERENT IN EVERY SITUATION.

A layup = FG
A dunk = FG
a midrange shot = FG
a putback = FG
an uncontested shot = FG
a 15ft shot = FG
a 14ft shot = FG
a fade away = FG
etc...


How can you possibly assume that FG% or TS% says the that much about scoring? Especially when you cannot compare one by one FGA to verify that their nature was at least similar.

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 10:47 AM
Swash, you keep pouring out numbers out that mean nothing... The FG/TS whatever you call it, IS DIFFERENT IN EVERY SITUATION.

A layup = FG
A dunk = FG
a midrange shot = FG
a putback = FG
an uncontested shot = FG
a 15ft shot = FG
a 14ft shot = FG
a fade away = FG
etc...


How can you possibly assume that FG% or TS% says the that much about scoring? Especially when you cannot compare one by one FGA to verify that their nature was at least similar.

There really is no helping you :pity:

bagwell368
09-17-2011, 12:17 PM
It drives me ****ing crazy that Kemp and Walton have been on this list for several picks and not Mitch Richmond. Walton was too injured in the nba, and Kemp peaked really fast, and never peaked THAT high to begin with.

Yeah, Richmond always seems to be underrated. Walton almost fits into another category - the what if guys. Kemp was a physical beast, but, he just didn't seem to go anywhere with it.

bagwell368
09-17-2011, 12:19 PM
Jordan said Mitch Richmond was the best player he ever faced, so lets get him on here.

I guess that's my bad. That covered him and visa versa. Not just on the other team. And Ritchmond is not #2 on that list.

bagwell368
09-17-2011, 12:29 PM
Swash, you keep pouring out numbers out that mean nothing... The FG/TS whatever you call it, IS DIFFERENT IN EVERY SITUATION.

A layup = FG
A dunk = FG
a midrange shot = FG
a putback = FG
an uncontested shot = FG
a 15ft shot = FG
a 14ft shot = FG
a fade away = FG
etc...


How can you possibly assume that FG% or TS% says the that much about scoring? Especially when you cannot compare one by one FGA to verify that their nature was at least similar.

I suppose that less then 20% of the posters here ever saw McHale play say 10 games live in his prime. Anyone that is conversant w/ McHale would laugh at comparing him and Gasol on offense or defense.. You are right, knowing the game and seeing the game outweighs numbers, but for those guys that didn't see him, old time NBA games and numbers is all they have.

W/o the numbers - people will say, ah that guy is Celts fan, he's biased (w/o even knowing that I'm one of the biggest critics of Bill Russell, JoJo White, Rondo, and Paul Pierce known on this board).

McHale at his peak is seriously the 3rd best #4 in NBA history. AI's holes on defense, and all the times his teammates stopped moving on offense when he held the rock bury AI under a pile of boulders. I can see fans fawning on the guy, but guys that coach, study the game, have played the game at any level - HS or above? The offensive skills are there - but he was a selfish pig, and a polarizing divisive jerk. AI vs McHale is a straight joke.

Hellcrooner
09-17-2011, 12:58 PM
I suppose that less then 20% of the posters here ever saw McHale play say 10 games live in his prime. Anyone that is conversant w/ McHale would laugh at comparing him and Gasol on offense or defense.. You are right, knowing the game and seeing the game outweighs numbers, but for those guys that didn't see him, old time NBA games and numbers is all they have.

W/o the numbers - people will say, ah that guy is Celts fan, he's biased (w/o even knowing that I'm one of the biggest critics of Bill Russell, JoJo White, Rondo, and Paul Pierce known on this board).

McHale at his peak is seriously the 3rd best #4 in NBA history. AI's holes on defense, and all the times his teammates stopped moving on offense when he held the rock bury AI under a pile of boulders. I can see fans fawning on the guy, but guys that coach, study the game, have played the game at any level - HS or above? The offensive skills are there - but he was a selfish pig, and a polarizing divisive jerk. AI vs McHale is a straight joke.
ive seen both play, i still think mchale is better but on OFFENSE gasol has mroe tools that mchale had, its defense wich makes mchale a better player.

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 01:23 PM
W/o the numbers - people will say, ah that guy is Celts fan, he's biased (w/o even knowing that I'm one of the biggest critics of Bill Russell, JoJo White, Rondo, and Paul Pierce known on this board).


Why against Bill Russell? I don't have an honest opinion on him, just based on readings, other people's words and limited video.. I'd think that he was something like an overmarketed Ben Wallace in his days, which was way more effective of course, but I'd like to hear your opinion on him.

Geargo Wallace
09-17-2011, 04:10 PM
ive seen both play, i still think mchale is better but on OFFENSE gasol has mroe tools that mchale had, its defense wich makes mchale a better player.

McHale had just about every tool on offence that you'd ever want in a PF.

bagwell368
09-17-2011, 05:23 PM
McHale had just about every tool on offence that you'd ever want in a PF.

Let me anticipate an answer: "But he couldn't go out an hit a 3".

McHale was deadly from about 14' in, he had easily the best % and least blockable fallaway jumper of all time. He had hooks, dipsy doos (Johnny Most speak), up and unders, fakes, fakes on fakes, head and shoulder fake/lean in and shot or take a dribble and dunk. He was dominant. He however wasn't much of a passer, and he had the well earned nickname of "the black hole". But the key thing is that he rebounded more then well enough to supply his own shots, and more too boot. Some big guys around these days remind of Chet Walker - they don't rebound well enough to supply themselves.

The rarity of big men with killer/diversified post games that could cover at an all star level about 50% of the players in the NBA. In fact he's unique.

When we compare it to the scoring bigs and smalls of today, but don't defend, or don't rebound, or simply don't care except to stat pad their own paychecks. McHale was a throwback even then. It's only having Maxwell around early and his broken foot later on that kept him from climbing into the top 20 all time.

Geargo Wallace
09-17-2011, 05:49 PM
Let me anticipate an answer: "But he couldn't go out an hit a 3".

McHale was deadly from about 14' in, he had easily the best % and least blockable fallaway jumper of all time. He had hooks, dipsy doos (Johnny Most speak), up and unders, fakes, fakes on fakes, head and shoulder fake/lean in and shot or take a dribble and dunk. He was dominant. He however wasn't much of a passer, and he had the well earned nickname of "the black hole". But the key thing is that he rebounded more then well enough to supply his own shots, and more too boot. Some big guys around these days remind of Chet Walker - they don't rebound well enough to supply themselves.

The rarity of big men with killer/diversified post games that could cover at an all star level about 50% of the players in the NBA. In fact he's unique.

When we compare it to the scoring bigs and smalls of today, but don't defend, or don't rebound, or simply don't care except to stat pad their own paychecks. McHale was a throwback even then. It's only having Maxwell around early and his broken foot later on that kept him from climbing into the top 20 all time.

I share the exact same opinion. The man was incredibly versatile on defense and possessed unstoppable post moves. I wouldn't fault a guy who was nicknamed "the black hole" who shoots with such efficiency. There's a reason why they called it "the torture chamber" when he had you in the post. He definitely had the skill/game of a top 20 guy but I understand how these all time greatness rankings work. If you're labeled as a #2 guy, or don't have longevity/accolades as some lesser players, your ranking suffers.

NYKalltheway
09-17-2011, 06:03 PM
I share the exact same opinion. The man was incredibly versatile on defense and possessed unstoppable post moves. I wouldn't fault a guy who was nicknamed "the black hole" who shoots with such efficiency. There's a reason why they called it "the torture chamber" when he had you in the post. He definitely had the skill/game of a top 20 guy but I understand how these all time greatness rankings work. If you're labeled as a #2 guy, or don't have longevity/accolades as some lesser players, your ranking suffers.


they keep throwing ###################s at you :D

ShakeN'Bake
09-18-2011, 07:58 PM
I've been going Mchale for three times now.