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Mile High Champ
09-15-2011, 10:32 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kobe Bryant
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

3mikee_
09-15-2011, 10:53 AM
KD... can't believe he's 7th though. Gotta believe that he's at least a top 5 player in the league.

rapjuicer06
09-15-2011, 10:59 AM
KD for me. A guy who can score like he does has to be recognized

Gators123
09-15-2011, 11:08 AM
Durant

xxdc2tegxx
09-15-2011, 11:11 AM
Rose and Durant [vice versa] for the next two spots. Hate me or not but both these guys had an argument to go a few spots earlier. I have rose because he was MVP last year and for conservative sake...even if you dont think he was MVP he still had a top 3 season regardless last year.

And I believe, he has more of an impact on the game than Durant.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 11:17 AM
:facepalm:

now manu..............

we are not getting out of Pg and sf in ages.

millerandco
09-15-2011, 11:22 AM
what is manu doing there? who makes these polls? are you high?

Mishmin
09-15-2011, 11:34 AM
I havent been around psd all that long.. but is it often that the years' mvp gets ranked 7-9 in this poll? Does that speak to the quality of players in the league right now or ignorance of voters..

Fly
09-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Why is Kobe Bryant rated so lowwww? He's better than Dirk, and he's better than Wade IMO

Sadds The Gr8
09-15-2011, 11:37 AM
wow people are STILL complaining about the polls :laugh: pay attention so it doesn't have to be explained for the 9000th time. The NBA forum really is full of fools

millerandco
09-15-2011, 11:38 AM
I havent been around psd all that long.. but is it often that the years' mvp gets ranked 7-9 in this poll? Does that speak to the quality of players in the league right now or ignorance of voters..

agreed its kind of strange that the MVP is going to slip to 7th or even 8th in the league. i think durant should have gone higher too

The_Pharouh
09-15-2011, 11:39 AM
Kevin Durant

DaBUU
09-15-2011, 11:39 AM
I havent been around psd all that long.. but is it often that the years' mvp gets ranked 7-9 in this poll? Does that speak to the quality of players in the league right now or ignorance of voters..

can of worms........must not open. You will learn the ways of the NBA forum soon enough, you will then laugh.

The_Pharouh
09-15-2011, 11:43 AM
And I don't know why ppl are complaining about Manu,or whoever in the poll
each poll is about to vote for 1 player,and if a player is voted already better than other player at his position ,it is safe to assume he will is gonna be voted better again

millerandco
09-15-2011, 11:44 AM
can of worms........must not open. You will learn the ways of the NBA forum soon enough, you will then laugh.

hahahah agreed. eveyone is way way too biased for their own team

GhostfaceDrilla
09-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Kevin Durant here. Why is everyone complaining about him this low? Did you see him in the playoffs against Dallas? He can't handle pressure, he takes god awful shots, he can't defend. Give him 2 or 3 years until he finally learns all about handling pressure and clutch and he's a lock for top 3. Not now though. He's 7.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:11 PM
:facepalm:

now manu..............

we are not getting out of Pg and sf in ages.

Manu has a decent top 10 case, and I'm not joking. I think he's one of the most overrated player's in the game but statistically speaking he's up there with the best of them.

millerandco
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Manu has a decent top 10 case, and I'm not joking. I think he's one of the most overrated player's in the game but statistically speaking he's up there with the best of them.

there is no way any GM starting a team today would take manu within the top10 picks. come on

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-15-2011, 12:17 PM
there is no way any GM starting a team today would take manu within the top10 picks. come on

lol one guy was trying to prove me in the redraft that manu is top10 and better than kobe lmfao:laugh2:

But my vote goes for MVP.

juno10
09-15-2011, 12:17 PM
I havent been around psd all that long.. but is it often that the years' mvp gets ranked 7-9 in this poll? Does that speak to the quality of players in the league right now or ignorance of voters..

its a media award,dwight was the BEST player from lst season. the media gave it to the new kid on the block with hype.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:18 PM
there is no way any GM starting a team today would take manu within the top10 picks. come on

The same could possibly be said about Melo, Stoudemire, Bynum hell even Kobe. That isn't the question however.

millerandco
09-15-2011, 12:20 PM
The same could possibly be said about Melo, Stoudemire, Bynum hell even Kobe. That isn't the question however.

you woulnd't take melo, stoudemire or kobe in the top 10? wow give me your top 10 pleeeeeeeeease

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:24 PM
you woulnd't take melo, stoudemire or kobe in the top 10? wow give me your top 10 pleeeeeeeeease

No particular order

Wade
Griffin
LeBron
Dwight
Rose
Dirk
CP3
D-Will
KD
Kobe

There is a difference between who you'd start your team with and who's a better player, different factors have to be taken into consideration.

millerandco
09-15-2011, 12:26 PM
No particular order

Wade
Griffin
LeBron
Dwight
Rose
Dirk
CP3
D-Will
KD
Kobe

There is a difference between who you'd start your team with and who's a better player, different factors have to be taken into consideration.

of course i agree that there is a difference. but i dont think griff is a top10player. he has one season under his belt and is just relying on athleticism atm even though i love him as a player.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
of course i agree that there is a difference. but i dont think griff is a top10player. he has one season under his belt and is just relying on athleticism atm even though i love him as a player.

Obviously, I don't even have him ahead of Stoudemire and Melo on my personal list. However when gauging the best players in the league and who you'd start a team with different dynamics have to be taken into consideration.

TheRunKiller
09-15-2011, 12:31 PM
Rose here over the guy that stands around and shoots jumpers all game

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Kobe is too high on this list, he's just being voted so high due to his past accomplishments. If you look at last season, both Durant and Rose had better seasons.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:34 PM
lol one guy was trying to prove me in the redraft that manu is top10 and better than kobe lmfao:laugh2:

But my vote goes for MVP.

I don't agree with it either but if you look at it from certain angles Manu does have a strong case, however it's better to be holistic rather than to put all your stock in 2 or 3 statistics which don't apply any context or circumstance. I had one guy tell me that Manu is a top 5 SG all time. Hell Crooner said he's better than George Gervin. :laugh:

millerandco
09-15-2011, 12:35 PM
No particular order

Wade
Griffin
LeBron
Dwight
Rose
Dirk
CP3
D-Will
KD
Kobe

There is a difference between who you'd start your team with and who's a better player, different factors have to be taken into consideration.

well there is a pretty good top10 there...now try and convince me that manu is better than just ONE of them

MinVikesFan
09-15-2011, 12:42 PM
Durant or Rose. Both of those guys should be ahead of Dwight and CP3. I'd go with Durant.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 12:46 PM
Durant will win this because most people on this forum are hella ignorant, but Rose deserves this imo.

Durant is over rated. He's a great scorer but the most assisted SF in the entire league after Dirk(who I know is actually a PF), and he doesn't even score as well as Dirk does. Durant benefits so much from being on a team with ballhandlers and distributors. Westbrook, Harden, even Eric Maynor are all good at getting him the ball.

Rose is a great scorer without that luxury, he has the highest USG out of any PG in the NBA and he's also one of the least assisted. Not only does Rose have to score, but he's the sole ballhandler for the team when he's on the floor, he has to create over 80% of the shots he takes for himself, he has to also distribute the ball to his team mates and create shots for them too.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 12:48 PM
I havent been around psd all that long.. but is it often that the years' mvp gets ranked 7-9 in this poll? Does that speak to the quality of players in the league right now or ignorance of voters..

its much more than that. We all know the MVP generally goes to a player from a top 3-4 team, meaning Dwight was out of the conversation. With LeBron and Wade teaming up, and the overall media/fan hatred towards them, even with their better individual seasons, they stood no chance. Chicago was the great story, and Rose had a great year. He is no way a top 3-4 player right now, but neither was Nash at any point, or AI. There have been MVP's over the years that were obviously not the best players in the league the season they won it.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 12:49 PM
its Durant. He had a down year compared to the year prior, and he was still elite as hell. Rose fans, he needs to do this another year or two before you just automatically throw him in with a few of these other guys.

Cubs Win
09-15-2011, 12:52 PM
its Durant. He had a down year compared to the year prior, and he was still elite as hell. Rose fans, he needs to do this another year or two before you just automatically throw him in with a few of these other guys.

I thought this was just based on the past season. At least that's what I've heard used in arguments in these threads before. :confused:

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:53 PM
well there is a pretty good top10 there...now try and convince me that manu is better than just ONE of them

I can't because I too don't buy into the argument. However in terms of WS/48 Manu ranked 15th last season that was ahead of Melo, Stoudemire, Kobe, Durant. In terms of RAPM (the hot stat in APBRmetrics which is regularized adjusted +/-) he ranked 2nd in the league to only Dirk and in terms of Simple Rating he's ranked 5th in the NBA last season.

WS/48

Player WS/48
Manu Ginobili 0.195
Kevin Durant 0.189
Kobe Bryant 0.179
Blake Griffin 0.152
Deron Williams 0.142
Carmelo Anthony 0.138
Amare Stoudemire 0.134
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Simple Rating

Player Simple Rating
Ginobili +11.3
Nowitzki +11.2
Paul +10.5
Bryant +10.1
Durant +9.5
Rose +7.9
Griffin +6.8
http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG8.HTM

RAPM

Name RAPM
Ginobili, Manu 6.1
Paul, Chris 4.5
Howard, Dwight 4.4
James, LeBron 4.1
Wade, Dwyane 3.6
Rose, Derrick 3.4
Durant, Kevin 3.2
Bryant, Kobe 1.1
Griffin, Blake 1.1
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking11

As I said I don't agree because there is much more to be taken into consideration that these statistics or stats on a whole but if someone wants to me a homer the can make a pretty decent case for themselves.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 12:56 PM
I can't because I too don't buy into the argument. However in terms of WS/48 Manu ranked 15th last season that was ahead of Melo, Stoudemire, Kobe, Durant. In terms of RAPM (the hot stat in APBRmetrics which is regularized adjusted +/-) he ranked 2nd in the league to only Dirk and in terms of Simple Rating he's ranked 5th in the NBA last season.

WS/48

Player WS/48
Manu Ginobili 0.195
Kevin Durant 0.189
Kobe Bryant 0.179
Blake Griffin 0.152
Deron Williams 0.142
Carmelo Anthony 0.138
Amare Stoudemire 0.134
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Simple Rating

Player Simple Rating
Ginobili +11.3
Nowitzki +11.2
Paul +10.5
Bryant +10.1
Durant +9.5
Rose +7.9
Griffin +6.8
http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG8.HTM

RAPM

Name RAPM
Ginobili, Manu 6.1
Paul, Chris 4.5
Howard, Dwight 4.4
James, LeBron 4.1
Wade, Dwyane 3.6
Rose, Derrick 3.4
Durant, Kevin 3.2
Bryant, Kobe 1.1
Griffin, Blake 1.1
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking11

As I said I don't agree because there is much more to be taken into consideration that these statistics or stats on a whole but if someone wants to me a homer the can make a pretty decent case for themselves.


mmm pau gasol 0.232 ws /48? :speechless:

Baller1
09-15-2011, 12:57 PM
Can't believe Durant has fallen this far, and now has a chance to fall to #8 because of the Rose fanboys.

Kobe and Rose fanboys are gonna destroy the bottom of this list.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 12:57 PM
lol is a pity i dont like adv stats too much, im just checking and Pau is an adv Stats monster.

11th in per 2 in ws 2 in offensivews 9th in def win shares.

ewmania
09-15-2011, 12:58 PM
durant or rose, wouldn't matter

but im going with rose on this one

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 12:59 PM
Can't believe Durant has fallen this far, and now has a chance to fall to #8 because of the Rose fanboys.

Kobe and Rose fanboys are gonna destroy the bottom of this list.

Don't worry, Durant will win this. People hate Rose on this site and love Durant.

If this site really had a lot of Rose fanboys, he wouldn't be going #9 and #10 on this list, would he? He would have gone #5 or #6.

I guess all those Rose fanboys didn't bother to vote

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 01:02 PM
I thought this was just based on the past season. At least that's what I've heard used in arguments in these threads before. :confused:

its a personal vote. Obviously a player like Deron who was crushed by injuries will take a little fall, but for me to vote Rose over Durant, who has been killing it for 3 years, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

Patience Bulls fans, Rose's high ranking is coming.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 01:05 PM
lol is a pity i dont like adv stats too much, im just checking and Pau is an adv Stats monster.

11th in per 2 in ws 2 in offensivews 9th in def win shares.

Pau is underrated the majority of the time by fans and the media, no doubt about that.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 01:08 PM
its a personal vote. Obviously a player like Deron who was crushed by injuries will take a little fall, but for me to vote Rose over Durant, who has been killing it for 3 years, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

Patience Bulls fans, Rose's high ranking is coming.

It should come right now if you consider how much help Durant gets and how little Rose gets.

Durant, assisted 62% of the time. Rose, assisted 27% of the time, and a mere 16% of the time in his mid range game.

Durant, lots of ballhandlers and creators on his team. Rose, the only ballhandler and creator on the team lol (not counting Watson who only plays with the second unit and is rarely on the floor with Rose)

Cubs Win
09-15-2011, 01:08 PM
its a personal vote. Obviously a player like Deron who was crushed by injuries will take a little fall, but for me to vote Rose over Durant, who has been killing it for 3 years, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

Patience Bulls fans, Rose's high ranking is coming.

Gotcha. Yeah I'm not gonna complain if Rose doesn't win this vote. I personally have just seen enough of him to believe this past season was for real. And after all, even if he falls to #8, I'd say that's pretty good for a 22 year old.

bovice163
09-15-2011, 01:09 PM
its a personal vote. Obviously a player like Deron who was crushed by injuries will take a little fall, but for me to vote Rose over Durant, who has been killing it for 3 years, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

Patience Bulls fans, Rose's high ranking is coming.

I think #7 is a perfect spot for Rose. Nobody here is saying he should be top 5 at the moment. Durant falling this low is just a testament to the people who overrate Kobe. Kobe to me has been a fringe top 5 player the last 2-3 years, and I feel like #8 would coincide well with his performance last season in particular. That's PSD for you though.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:11 PM
Durant will win this because most people on this forum are hella ignorant, but Rose deserves this imo.

Durant is over rated. He's a great scorer but the most assisted SF in the entire league after Dirk(who I know is actually a PF), and he doesn't even score as well as Dirk does. Durant benefits so much from being on a team with ballhandlers and distributors. Westbrook, Harden, even Eric Maynor are all good at getting him the ball.

Rose is a great scorer without that luxury, he has the highest USG out of any PG in the NBA and he's also one of the least assisted. Not only does Rose have to score, but he's the sole ballhandler for the team when he's on the floor, he has to create over 80% of the shots he takes for himself, he has to also distribute the ball to his team mates and create shots for them too.

having the ability to score off the ball and come of screens is a skill, your like those people who say ray allen is a one trick pony because he can only shoot, take ball handlers away you actually think durant will stop being so great? and i wouldn't call rose a great scorer. great play maker maybe.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 01:12 PM
having the ability to score off the ball and come of screens is a skill, your like those people who say ray allen is a one trick pony because he can only shoot, take ball handlers away you actually think durant will stop being so great?

heck yes I do, if we took westbrook and harden away I think Durants scoring would suffer for sure.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 01:19 PM
It should come right now if you consider how much help Durant gets and how little Rose gets.


Durant, assisted 62% of the time. Rose, assisted 27% of the time, and a mere 16% of the time in his mid range game.

Durant, lots of ballhandlers and creators on his team. Rose, the only ballhandler and creator on the team lol (not counting Watson who only plays with the second unit and is rarely on the floor with Rose)

Durant is a SF. Sorry, LeBron is one of the few SF's who handle the ball all the time. Durant is supposed to move off the ball and get scoring opportunities in different ways. Rose is a PG.

Help? Rose would not have even sniffed the MVP award has his team not had easily the best defense, and best defensive bench in the NBA. Rose isn't the reason the Bulls outscored their opponents by nearly 200 pts in the 4th quarter. Their boa constricting defense is.

Again, I am also not going to vote for a guy who jumped from top 30 players in the league to top 10 in one year, when there is a guy available that has been sitting in the top 5 argument for 2-3 years. Rose will get his due, I am just not giving him this spot in my personal voting yet.

TheRunKiller
09-15-2011, 01:20 PM
heck yes I do, if we took westbrook and harden away I think Durants scoring would suffer for sure.

yep, that would not be pretty. he would have a hard time getting shots off since he counts on westbrook & harden driving to the hoop and kicking it out to him for the open shot.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 01:20 PM
you guys should be more pissed Kobe went ahead of Rose than Durant if you only care about this season btw. Yes, I said it.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:20 PM
heck yes I do, if we took westbrook and harden away I think Durants scoring would suffer for sure.

one of the reasons why westbrooks assit numbers is so high is because durant is an elite off the ball player he's a superstar guys don't leave him open playing off the ball is a skill. and you and i know perfectly well durant can score on almost anyone in the league. without ball handlers he would find ways to keep winning.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:22 PM
yep, that would not be pretty. he would have a hard time getting shots off since he counts on westbrook & harden driving to the hoop and kicking it out to him for the open shot.

he's 6'11 sf with elite ball handling skills for his size how would it be be hard to get shots off.

Da Knicks
09-15-2011, 01:23 PM
you guys should be more pissed Kobe went ahead of Rose than Durant if you only care about this season btw. Yes, I said it.

I agree with this, but i dont even have Rose ahead of D. Williams so take it for what its worth.

TheRunKiller
09-15-2011, 01:24 PM
he's 6'11 sf without elite ball handling skills for his size how would it be be hard to get shots off.

I'm not saying he couldn't get shots off, it would just be harder for him like rzzza said.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 01:24 PM
you guys should be more pissed Kobe went ahead of Rose than Durant if you only care about this season btw. Yes, I said it.

Fully agreed, that's my gripe here. Kobe should not have been ahead of either of them. KD has a much better case than Kobe has. MUCH.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Durant is a SF. Sorry, LeBron is one of the few SF's who handle the ball all the time. Durant is supposed to move off the ball and get scoring opportunities in different ways. Rose is a PG.

Help? Rose would not have even sniffed the MVP award has his team not had easily the best defense, and best defensive bench in the NBA. Rose isn't the reason the Bulls outscored their opponents by nearly 200 pts in the 4th quarter. Their boa constricting defense is.

Again, I am also not going to vote for a guy who jumped from top 30 players in the league to top 10 in one year, when there is a guy available that has been sitting in the top 5 argument for 2-3 years. Rose will get his due, I am just not giving him this spot in my personal voting yet.

Lebron is not the only example. Granger, Gay, Melo, Pierce....all these guys are less assisted than Durant.

Amongst elite SF's, Durant is the most assisted. It's not a knock on him, I'm just trying to point out how much help he gets on that team. His job is so much easier than Rose's.

Compare it to Rose, a guy who has to create 80+% of shots for himself, and also create for his team mates. an elite PG's job who is also the #1 option for his team is harder than an elite SF's job imo.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Lebron is not the only example. Granger, Gay, Melo, Pierce....all these guys are less assisted than Durant.

Amongst elite SF's, Durant is the most assisted. It's not a knock on him, I'm just trying to point out how much help he gets on that team. His job is so much easier than Rose's.

Compare it to Rose, a guy who has to create 80+% of shots for himself, and also create for his team mates. an elite PG's job who is also the #1 option for his team is harder than an elite SF's job imo.

its not that easy. Durant is a much better route runner than any of those guys. He is far better at moving off the ball, and using his perfect timing to get open at the right moment. He also doesn't have a lot of wasted motion like Pierce or Melo, who like to catch, turn and isolate.

Unfortunately, our opinions differ. Being a superstar is difficult for any position/situation.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 01:29 PM
you guys should be more pissed Kobe went ahead of Rose than Durant if you only care about this season btw. Yes, I said it.

I am pissed about that, Kobe should not be so high on the list. But he's already there so there's nothing we can do about it.

jimm120
09-15-2011, 01:30 PM
Voting DURANT

i also want melo one the poll. He's around 8th for
me, but dirk got voted too high.

Anyway, want melo on there for the 8th or 9th pick after durant and rose.


And for the people that argue that deron is better... Melo was 7th and still played grat in 2010. Deron got WORSE and missed 1/4 of the season. He was only at 19ppg and 9 assists before the trade. Then, he got traded and got 14ppg on 35% shooting. He upped his assists to 12 a game but his shooting went down so much in everyhing.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:39 PM
if you watched 2010 fiba when rose and durant were on the same team you can tell who was the more superior player.

Cubs Win
09-15-2011, 01:41 PM
if you watched 2010 fiba when rose and durant were on the same team you can tell who was the more superior player.

That's a horrible argument for 2 reasons.

1) This is the #7 Player in the NBA...NOT FIBA

2) At one point, Coach K said that Rose was the best player on the team.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:51 PM
That's a horrible argument for 2 reasons.

1) This is the #7 Player in the NBA...NOT FIBA

2) At one point, Coach K said that Rose was the best player on the team.

pretty sure he didn't say that why would a hall of fame coach say something trvial like that. even if he did rose sure didn;t perform like it he was on par with russel westbrook who came off the bench.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 01:54 PM
Rose plays terrible in these overseas/exhibition games any way, he's shy and he needs time to acclimate himself to a team before his full fury comes out.

juno10
09-15-2011, 01:57 PM
you're making excuses for him...

Gators123
09-15-2011, 02:05 PM
Rose plays terrible in these overseas/exhibition games any way, he's shy and he needs time to acclimate himself to a team before his full fury comes out.

Really?

Baller1
09-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Don't worry, Durant will win this. People hate Rose on this site and love Durant.

If this site really had a lot of Rose fanboys, he wouldn't be going #9 and #10 on this list, would he? He would have gone #5 or #6.

I guess all those Rose fanboys didn't bother to vote

Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.

THE GIPPER
09-15-2011, 02:11 PM
two players on the board still who are better than kobe imo.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 02:16 PM
Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.

You and Carey are the only Thunder fans on this site :hide:

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 02:17 PM
Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.

forgot to mention, you will get a counter for the Chicago homers here from NY fans who want Melo on this poll as quickly as possible. So it doesn't really matter.

Baller1
09-15-2011, 02:23 PM
You and Carey are the only Thunder fans on this site :hide:

Ha, pretty much.


forgot to mention, you will get a counter for the Chicago homers here from NY fans who want Melo on this poll as quickly as possible. So it doesn't really matter.

Ehhh... A little, but not really. I see about 5 or 6 Knicks fans who voted for Durant (and that doesn't necessarily mean they did it solely to get Melo on the board). And even if that was the case, it would steal leave Durant without about 30 unbiased votes to Rose's 6-7.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.

If rose homers took this poll over then rose would be higher on the poll. Durant is still gonna win. What are you complaining about

SteBO
09-15-2011, 02:26 PM
Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.
That poll made this entire list wrong.

Going with Durant here......

Baller1
09-15-2011, 02:28 PM
If rose homers took this poll over then rose would be higher on the poll. Durant is still gonna win. What are you complaining about

They've already put Kobe up at #6, when he should realistically be below both Durant and Rose.

I'm not complaining, I'm not too concerned about these polls.. It's just the only interesting thing to come into this forum and talk about right now, so I might as well.

Mile High Champ
09-15-2011, 02:29 PM
:facepalm:

now manu..............

we are not getting out of Pg and sf in ages.

We get it, you don't like the system. If you don't care for it, don't particiapte. Man you need to let go..

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 02:29 PM
its Durant. He had a down year compared to the year prior, and he was still elite as hell. Rose fans, he needs to do this another year or two before you just automatically throw him in with a few of these other guys.

This list needs to be listed as #1 player for the 2010-2011 Season.

That is how the list should have been. People are taking and ranking guys based on past seasons here.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 02:30 PM
They've already put Kobe up at #6, when he should realistically be below both Durant and Rose.

I'm not complaining, I'm not too concerned about these polls.. It's just the only interesting thing to come into this forum and talk about right now, so I might as well.

Statistically who do you take, Rose or Durant?

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Just taking a quick glance at the public poll, I can see 9 of the 16 Rose votes are for sure Chicago fans, whereas I'm the only Thunder fan to vote for Durant.

Soooo... What were you saying about fanboys not taking these polls over?

Go check the #6 player thread. 60-75% of Kobe and Rose's votes were biased.

Sorry how was Rose's biased when he won league mvp and led a team to the top record in the league without another allstar on the team? Not to mention led his team in PER, WS and Scoring?

Durant had a guy on his team who had the same PER he had. Kobe had a guy on his team who had a significant amount more of win shares than he did.

Baller1
09-15-2011, 02:38 PM
Statistically who do you take, Rose or Durant?

Honestly, it really depends on the team. You've got an insane scorer with the ability to get to the line, take over a game late, and finish a fastbreak with ease. Or do you want a dominant playmaker who can be that scorer you need, or switch it up and be a facilitator?

Basically, does your team need a scorer or a playmaker? In this case, you can't go wrong because the two of them are some of the best at their respective roles.

Statistically, I'd say last season was a virtual tie. Durant was the better scorer in every aspect, but then Rose can counter that with superior passing and playmaking skills.

It's tough, but without even looking at any stats, I'm going to go ahead and assume Rose had the better statistical season?

Baller1
09-15-2011, 02:41 PM
Sorry how was Rose's biased when he won league mvp and led a team to the top record in the league without another allstar on the team? Not to mention led his team in PER, WS and Scoring?

Durant had a guy on his team who had the same PER he had. Kobe had a guy on his team who had a significant amount more of win shares than he did.

So Bulls fans voting for Rose doesn't portray any bias?

Look at it this way, take away all votes from each player that were voted by fans of their team. Durant takes an unbiased vote hands down, and the last player thread (#6) easily shows this.

Basically, if there were as many Thunder fans on this site as there are Chicago and LA fans, Durant would've taken that poll with absolute ease.

Bruno
09-15-2011, 03:10 PM
KD. Rose next.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 03:13 PM
I would still take Durant over Rose, statistically, and in general for this past year. Durant is not going to get the defensive win shares that Rose gets, because Rose is on an elite defensive team, but Durant is better offensively.

tredigs
09-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Sorry how was Rose's biased when he won league mvp and led a team to the top record in the league without another allstar on the team? Not to mention led his team in PER, WS and Scoring?

Durant had a guy on his team who had the same PER he had. Kobe had a guy on his team who had a significant amount more of win shares than he did.

And both had a higher PER than Rose, and KD dominated as a true leader in the playoffs, taking over huge in the closing out games of the two series they won. Rose? Well, kid's got some learning to do (same age as KD, but clearly behind when it comes down to it).

As soon as Rose discontinues his erratic/hilariously horrible bulk 3pt shooting that he started unleashing during the 2nd half of the season + playoffs (even Westbrook ended up as the better 3 point shooter - yikes Rose), then we can let him enter this discussion.

Rose does have some merits of comparison to KD (though they fall apart eventually) in a poll like this, but your reasoning is (as per usual), terrible.

Raph12
09-15-2011, 03:35 PM
Easily Durant, should've been fifth IMO, then Kobe/Dirk for 6/7...

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 03:39 PM
And both had a higher PER than Rose, and KD dominated as a true leader in the playoffs, taking over huge in the closing out games of the two series they won. Rose? Well, kid's got some learning to do (same age as KD, but clearly behind when it comes down to it).

As soon as Rose discontinues his erratic/hilariously horrible bulk 3pt shooting that he started unleashing during the 2nd half of the season + playoffs (even Westbrook ended up as the better 3 point shooter - yikes Rose), then we can let him enter this discussion.

Rose does have some merits of comparison to KD (though they fall apart eventually) in a poll like this, but your reasoning is (as per usual), terrible.

And far less win shares and had teammates who had PER and Win Shares just as them and who were allstars. Durant took over against an 8th seed that it took 7 games to beat. Not to mention Durant had a completely healthy team while Rose did not.

Avenged
09-15-2011, 03:59 PM
Went with the MVP here.

TheRunKiller
09-15-2011, 04:05 PM
I think the voting should be a little closer then it is. but rose #8 is fine with me

Avenged
09-15-2011, 04:11 PM
Not complaining about the poll since I understand it but Amare, Bynum, and Manu? I think the system should have only been used for the #1 at each position, and now that every position has been filled, more options should be added imo.

northsider
09-15-2011, 04:18 PM
So Bulls fans voting for Rose doesn't portray any bias?

Look at it this way, take away all votes from each player that were voted by fans of their team. Durant takes an unbiased vote hands down, and the last player thread (#6) easily shows this.

Basically, if there were as many Thunder fans on this site as there are Chicago and LA fans, Durant would've taken that poll with absolute ease.

I honestly don't want to get tangled in this but, there are just as many Rose fan boys on here as there are Rose haters. I would be willing to bet a good amount who voted for KD are also guys who would vote a fat slob at Mcdonalds over Rose. Honestly expecting any type of decent debate or poll in the NBA forum has became laughable. I only come in here for a few posters insight and the rest I just get to laugh at.

With that my vote goes to KD and I am basing that off I truly do think he is the better player and prob. I would have voted him higher as well. I am actually shocked we are at number 7 and its between Rose and Durant. Rose I can see but, not Durant.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 04:24 PM
And far less win shares and had teammates who had PER and Win Shares just as them and who were allstars. Durant took over against an 8th seed that it took 7 games to beat. Not to mention Durant had a completely healthy team while Rose did not.

when you can answer why Rose had more win shares than Durant this season, you have figured out why you are wrong here.

Some here use rings as a sole measurement. You tend to use HCA and win shares more than anyone I have come across.

pebloemer
09-15-2011, 04:26 PM
This list needs to be listed as #1 player for the 2010-2011 Season.

That is how the list should have been. People are taking and ranking guys based on past seasons here.

Past seasons (larger body of work) does come into play for me when discussing best player. Why shouldn't it? These polls have been happening for years and past seasons are always taken into account. Recent success is of course weighed heavily, but I don't think you can ignore a larger body of work. It has never been "#1 player of the 20--/20-- season."

Pierzynski4Prez
09-15-2011, 04:31 PM
I've been voting for KD since 3:shrug:

NYKNYGNYY
09-15-2011, 04:48 PM
if durant dosnt finally win im leaving psd forever....

NYKNYGNYY
09-15-2011, 04:49 PM
I've been voting for KD since 3:shrug:

me 2

Bruno
09-15-2011, 04:50 PM
Not complaining about the poll since I understand it but Amare, Bynum, and Manu? I think the system should have only been used for the #1 at each position, and now that every position has been filled, more options should be added imo.

x2.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 04:59 PM
I've been voting for KD since 3:shrug:

lol.

Come on, Durant at 3? Holy over rated hell batman

Baller1
09-15-2011, 04:59 PM
I honestly don't want to get tangled in this but, there are just as many Rose fan boys on here as there are Rose haters. I would be willing to bet a good amount who voted for KD are also guys who would vote a fat slob at Mcdonalds over Rose. Honestly expecting any type of decent debate or poll in the NBA forum has became laughable. I only come in here for a few posters insight and the rest I just get to laugh at.

With that my vote goes to KD and I am basing that off I truly do think he is the better player and prob. I would have voted him higher as well. I am actually shocked we are at number 7 and its between Rose and Durant. Rose I can see but, not Durant.

I'm honestly more concerned with the fact that Kobe's at #6 over Durant and Rose. But yeah, I get what you're saying. PSD is full of way too much bias, particularly in this forum, so I've given up trying to relay logic into the forum.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 05:00 PM
it's okay to be biased if you have good arguments though. Like I'm biased towards rose (obviously) and I'm biased towards elite point guards.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 05:00 PM
Honestly, it really depends on the team. You've got an insane scorer with the ability to get to the line, take over a game late, and finish a fastbreak with ease. Or do you want a dominant playmaker who can be that scorer you need, or switch it up and be a facilitator?

Basically, does your team need a scorer or a playmaker? In this case, you can't go wrong because the two of them are some of the best at their respective roles.

Statistically, I'd say last season was a virtual tie. Durant was the better scorer in every aspect, but then Rose can counter that with superior passing and playmaking skills.

It's tough, but without even looking at any stats, I'm going to go ahead and assume Rose had the better statistical season?

I can dig this. Overall yeah Rose was better statistically (from the stats that are available to me) but it's not by a huge margin.

I still haven't chosen between Rose or Durant. It's all a matter of personal preference of context and circumstance IMO.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-15-2011, 05:04 PM
Rose, KD is overated i just dont get it.

Baller1
09-15-2011, 05:08 PM
Rose, KD is overated i just dont get it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=duranke01&y2=2011

***** on Melo, sorry.

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 05:13 PM
Past seasons (larger body of work) does come into play for me when discussing best player. Why shouldn't it? These polls have been happening for years and past seasons are always taken into account. Recent success is of course weighed heavily, but I don't think you can ignore a larger body of work. It has never been "#1 player of the 20--/20-- season."

Because we have had polls on the 2010 season, 2009 season. Dont see why those years should be included for the 2011 season.

NYKNYGNYY
09-15-2011, 05:14 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=duranke01&y2=2011

***** on Melo, sorry.

nobody said anything about melo...he never said "melo should be up there not kd" me personally i think kd is top 3 i like his game

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 05:15 PM
Rose, KD is overated i just dont get it.

I think Rose and Durant are fairly equal overall. However I pick Rose for last season as he had a better overall season with less help. But I believe Durant in 2010 was better than Rose in 2011.

Baller1
09-15-2011, 05:18 PM
nobody said anything about melo...he never said "melo should be up there not kd" me personally i think kd is top 3 i like his game

Honestly, he didn't need to. It's obvious that a majority of Melo fans resent Durant.

And it's no disrespect to Melo because he's a great player, and I'm actually a fan of his. But the fact remains, he isn't on Durant's level.

JordansBulls
09-15-2011, 05:19 PM
when you can answer why Rose had more win shares than Durant this season, you have figured out why you are wrong here.



Because he was better:D

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-15-2011, 05:28 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=duranke01&y2=2011

***** on Melo, sorry.

Ok hes more efficient i knw that but kd gets his off of screens and teamates assisting to him melo he scores in isos. Im not saying hes not good just saying that all he does is score and melo hets that to just a scorer but hes a better rebounder and hes better at setting his teamates up better and kd defense is not any better than melos ill say melos is better i watch alot of kd i dnt see anything kd does better exept hes more efficeint at shooting the ball o yea he is more clutch too btw. kd is a hell of a shooter though hes good player but thinking hes better than rose or melo?

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 05:35 PM
Ok hes more efficient i knw that but kd gets his off of screens and teamates assisting to him melo he scores in isos. Im not saying hes not good just saying that all he does is score and melo hets that to just a scorer but hes a better rebounder and hes better at setting his teamates up better and kd defense is not any better than melos ill say melos is better i watch alot of kd i dnt see anything kd does better exept hes more efficeint at shooting the ball o yea he is more clutch too btw. kd is a hell of a shooter though hes good player but thinking hes better than rose or melo?

Tell me something. Which disrupts an opposing D more? Running around screen after screen giving your man/men a tough job of not only following you but getting in front of you or isolating and making it a one on one situation.

Sadds The Gr8
09-15-2011, 05:36 PM
Ok hes more efficient i knw that but kd gets his off of screens and teamates assisting to him melo he scores in isos. Im not saying hes not good just saying that all he does is score and melo hets that to just a scorer but hes a better rebounder and hes better at setting his teamates up better and kd defense is not any better than melos ill say melos is better i watch alot of kd i dnt see anything kd does better exept hes more efficeint at shooting the ball o yea he is more clutch too btw. kd is a hell of a shooter though hes good player but thinking hes better than rose or melo?

:facepalm:

nycericanguy
09-15-2011, 05:36 PM
Honestly, he didn't need to. It's obvious that a majority of Melo fans resent Durant.

And it's no disrespect to Melo because he's a great player, and I'm actually a fan of his. But the fact remains, he isn't on Durant's level.

Their stats are amazingly similar. Now Durant plays about 4mpg more than Melo which skews their totals some. But if you look at their "per 36" they are basically even in every category. Melo has a slight edge in FTAPG, rebounding and assists, While Durant has a slight edge in FG% & FT% and blocks.

RZZZA
09-15-2011, 05:37 PM
which is harder, beating players off the dribble and scoring or running around screens?

Kyle korver runs around screens all day, but guys like melo and rose go into iso and perform some more impressive feats imo

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 05:38 PM
Their stats are amazingly similar. Now Durant plays about 4mpg more than Melo which skews their totals some. But if you look at their "per 36" they are basically even in every category. Melo has a slight edge in FTAPG, rebounding and assists, While Durant has a slight edge in FG% & FT% and blocks.

Their stats aren't similar if you want me to break it down further for you I'll show you why. Also "per 36" stats aren't real numbers. You can't say one player is better than another through just per 36. Who is to say that given more/less minutes a player is going to have the same exact rate of production?

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 05:40 PM
Because he was better:D

haha. Because his team's defense was better, which is going to earn him more defensive win shares, which is why its a stat I put zip weight into.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Tell me something. Which disrupts an opposing D more? Running around screen after screen giving your man/men a tough job of not only following you but getting in front of you or isolating and making it a one on one situation.

i was saying running around screens is easier than isos.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 05:43 PM
which is harder, beating players off the dribble and scoring or running around screens?

Kyle korver runs around screens all day, but guys like melo and rose go into iso and perform some more impressive feats imo

There is an art to both honestly. It's not about which is harder is about which is more effective and one seems to be more efficient than the other.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 05:43 PM
which is harder, beating players off the dribble and scoring or running around screens?

Kyle korver runs around screens all day, but guys like melo and rose go into iso and perform some more impressive feats imo

Durant gets a LOT more heat and attention that Korver. Have you ever played off the ball? Against defenses that stack on you all the time? You need to have perfect timing, and be in unreal shape, and to make moves with purpose. Its a ton harder than you are giving him credit for. We all learn to score off the dribble from day 1 dude. That is how you practice by yourself until you develop practice routines to run curls, cuts, etc.

But you are acting like its so much harder to score off the dribble than it is to free yourself up while the defense is swarming you.

edit. Forgot to add, off the dribble, you have control like a yo-yo. When coming off the pass, full speed, its very rare when your guard is able to hit you in perfect natural motion, so you have a milisecond to adjust as you square your body.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-15-2011, 05:43 PM
Their stats aren't similar if you want me to break it down further for you I'll show you why. Also "per 36" stats aren't real numbers. You can't say one player is better than another through just per 36. Who is to say that given more/less minutes a player is going to have the same exact rate of production?

ok. but people act like hes so much better than melo and first thing i never said anything about melo tell he said something about him.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 05:46 PM
ok. but people act like hes so much better than melo and first thing i never said anything about melo tell he said something about him.

Understood. I guess it's a reflex action of his.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 05:48 PM
ok. but people act like hes so much better than melo and first thing i never said anything about melo tell he said something about him.

he is more efficient than Melo, for sure. I don't think he is a much better overall player, but when we get into these debates about who is individually better, these guys are all so ridiculously good, we need to nitpick to the Nth degree.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-15-2011, 05:53 PM
he is more efficient than Melo, for sure. I don't think he is a much better overall player, but when we get into these debates about who is individually better, these guys are all so ridiculously good, we need to nitpick to the Nth degree.

agreed.

Avenged
09-15-2011, 05:59 PM
he is more efficient than Melo, for sure. I don't think he is a much better overall player, but when we get into these debates about who is individually better, these guys are all so ridiculously good, we need to nitpick to the Nth degree.

I agree. I don't think Durant is on another level than Melo to be honest.. Melo is extremely underrated on here. I do think Durant is better, but not how the majority on here makes it seem.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 06:01 PM
I agree. I don't think Durant is on another level than Melo to be honest.. Melo is extremely underrated on here. I do think Durant is better, but not how the majority on here makes it seem.

dude, what am I going to do when Love is a top 5-10 player? I hope I don't go complete homer on everyone :facepalm:

Avenged
09-15-2011, 06:09 PM
dude, what am I going to do when Love is a top 5-10 player? I hope I don't go complete homer on everyone :facepalm:

Haha dude good luck trying to convince people in the 1st place.

Bruno
09-15-2011, 06:22 PM
dude, what am I going to do when Love is a top 5-10 player? I hope I don't go complete homer on everyone :facepalm:

Well statistically he already is. :shrug:

When the Wolves start sniffing 50 games Love should crack PSDs top ten.

Avenged
09-15-2011, 06:27 PM
Well statistically he already is. :shrug:

When the Wolves start sniffing 50 games Love should crack PSDs top ten.

I'd like to see the Wolves run plays strictly around him to see how much his stats take a hit or improve.

Bruno
09-15-2011, 06:34 PM
I bet his production would go up, and perhaps his efficiency go down slightly? ^

NYKNYGNYY
09-15-2011, 06:55 PM
Honestly, he didn't need to. It's obvious that a majority of Melo fans resent Durant.

And it's no disrespect to Melo because he's a great player, and I'm actually a fan of his. But the fact remains, he isn't on Durant's level.

no way is it a fact, im a knicks fan but love watching durant play as much as i enjoy watching the knicks play, imo they are equal if you had to give the edge i say durant by a hair

Hawkeye15
09-15-2011, 07:18 PM
Haha dude good luck trying to convince people in the 1st place.

I said when...

Avenged
09-15-2011, 07:20 PM
I said when...

Yeah, you didn't understand my post :p

northsider
09-15-2011, 07:36 PM
I think this one is about locked about and deservedly so for my boy KD but, its still a shame he has fell this far. We are all entitled to our opinions and perspectives.

heyman321
09-15-2011, 07:46 PM
This is a stupid way of polling, it just so happens that a lot of PGs are some of the best players in the NBA. Deron Williams should be on that list.

ShakeN'Bake
09-15-2011, 07:59 PM
Easily KD

beasted86
09-15-2011, 08:01 PM
This is a stupid way of polling, it just so happens that a lot of PGs are some of the best players in the NBA. Deron Williams should be on that list.

If Derrick Rose was already voted a better PG than Deron Williams, why should he be on the list? All I want to know is if it's possible for Deron to be a better NBA player than Rose, but not be a better PG?

If it's not possible, then you people need to re-read the first post to understand how the voting system works.

juno10
09-15-2011, 08:17 PM
Tell me something. Which disrupts an opposing D more? Running around screen after screen giving your man/men a tough job of not only following you but getting in front of you or isolating and making it a one on one situation.

agreed,i rather have durant and his elite off the ball play than melo who goes one on one only to settle for a long 2.

ManningToTyree
09-15-2011, 08:38 PM
Durant. then Rose

pebloemer
09-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Because we have had polls on the 2010 season, 2009 season. Dont see why those years should be included for the 2011 season.

You should look back at those polls again. The question was always: Who is the best player? Never were their specifications for a given season. And you'll notice proof in the names that make some of the lists. Players that missed the majority of seasons made Top 10 lists in the off-season following...

Yao Ming played 0 games in 09/10, yet was ranked the 2nd best Center in the league the following off-season. How would that be possible if voting was based on the season that just passed?

Do not skew history because it helps Rose in the votes...

Knicks21
09-16-2011, 09:20 AM
I agree. I don't think Durant is on another level than Melo to be honest.. Melo is extremely underrated on here. I do think Durant is better, but not how the majority on here makes it seem.

This. :clap:

Ebbs
09-16-2011, 10:19 AM
Durant than Rose than Deron than Melo

Chronz
09-16-2011, 10:55 AM
Their stats aren't similar if you want me to break it down further for you I'll show you why. Also "per 36" stats aren't real numbers. You can't say one player is better than another through just per 36. Who is to say that given more/less minutes a player is going to have the same exact rate of production?
What?
Per Minute rates are "real" stats, per minute stats > per game stats

Swashcuff
09-16-2011, 11:26 AM
What?
Per Minute rates are "real" stats, per minute stats > per game stats

I've always wanted to ask someone else's opinion on this how do you rate Todd MacCulloch among the Centres in 00-01?

I don't value using per 36 in an argument because it's not what they actually did during those 36 mins. If a player plays more minutes per game due to fatigue he may not be as good a scorer, rebounder, shot blocker. I think comparing players on a per 36 basis as your only indication as to who is better than whom will not necessarily give you accurate results.

nycericanguy
09-16-2011, 01:01 PM
I've always wanted to ask someone else's opinion on this how do you rate Todd MacCulloch among the Centres in 00-01?

I don't value using per 36 in an argument because it's not what they actually did during those 36 mins. If a player plays more minutes per game due to fatigue he may not be as good a scorer, rebounder, shot blocker. I think comparing players on a per 36 basis as your only indication as to who is better than whom will not necessarily give you accurate results.

Every stat is subjective or objective. PER 36 is a great tool IMO and I'm sure others agree.

Now if you're going to use such an extreme case such as Todd MC then of course it has no value.

But comparing Durant & Melo PER 36 is a great stat. Fact is Durant's totals are always going to be higher than most because he plays a TON of minutes...more so than most stars. But thats the coaches decision. I doubt that if you gave Melo 2 or 3 more minutes his production would just completely tail off as you suggest. I think its more just coaching styles. Most coaches like to give their stars a bit more rest than Durant gets.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-16-2011, 01:07 PM
I've always wanted to ask someone else's opinion on this how do you rate Todd MacCulloch among the Centres in 00-01?

I don't value using per 36 in an argument because it's not what they actually did during those 36 mins. If a player plays more minutes per game due to fatigue he may not be as good a scorer, rebounder, shot blocker. I think comparing players on a per 36 basis as your only indication as to who is better than whom will not necessarily give you accurate results.

PER 36 stats only makes sense if they could actually play 36 minutes.

I only use it basically if the players I'm comparing play just under or over 36 minutes.

Sadds The Gr8
09-16-2011, 01:10 PM
PER 36 stats only makes sense if they could actually play 36 minutes.

I only use it basically if the players I'm comparing play just under or over 36 minutes.

yea i only use it when comparing guys that play under 36 mins when they should clearly play around that mark. example would be Ty Lawson last season...I'd look at his per 36 stats objectively because he'll definitely play those type of mins in the future

ManRam
09-16-2011, 01:19 PM
I'm glad that people who before last season were ready to crown KD as the best player in the NBA have come to their senses. Most of the world wanted him to be the best, because he's likable and he's not LeBron, but he just isn't and never should have been considered so.

I actually think 7 is low...but as long as he isn't being in contention for #1, I'm happy.

Swashcuff
09-16-2011, 01:23 PM
Every stat is subjective or objective. PER 36 is a great tool IMO and I'm sure others agree.

Now if you're going to use such an extreme case such as Todd MC then of course it has no value.

But comparing Durant & Melo PER 36 is a great stat. Fact is Durant's totals are always going to be higher than most because he plays a TON of minutes...more so than most stars. But thats the coaches decision. I doubt that if you gave Melo 2 or 3 more minutes his production would just completely tail off as you suggest. I think its more just coaching styles. Most coaches like to give their stars a bit more rest than Durant gets.

That actually isn't relative to the question. I am really interested to know how Chronz or another great statistical mind views him. Ge was good in every regard whether it be PER, TS% or WS. He was pretty solid for my 76ers. He also had good per 36 numbers.

I never said his production will tail off nor did I suggest anything of the sort. Players with incredible endurance can play large amounts of minutes without any negative effect on their game but there comes a point in every player where you would figure that if he plays more minutes than he's accustomed to he may not be the exact same player. It's only logical after all he is a human being.

Using per 36 stats by themselves to gauge a player's value will not give you an accurate indication of a player's value. Do you think Kobe is better than Wade? Do you think Kevin Martin is a better scorer than Carmelo? How about Luis Scola is he better than Zach Randolph and Lamarcus Aldridge? Because by using per 36 one can try to argue that.

Hellcrooner
09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
That actually isn't relative to the question. I am really interested to know how Chronz or another great statistical mind views him. Ge was good in every regard whether it be PER, TS% or WS. He was pretty solid for my 76ers. He also had good per 36 numbers.

I never said his production will tail off nor did I suggest anything of the sort. Players with incredible endurance can play large amounts of minutes without any negative effect on their game but there comes a point in every player where you would figure that if he plays more minutes than he's accustomed to he may not be the exact same player. It's only logical after all he is a human being.

Using per 36 stats by themselves to gauge a player's value will not give you an accurate indication of a player's value. Do you think Kobe is better than Wade? Do you think Kevin Martin is a better scorer than Carmelo? How about Luis Scola is he better than Zach Randolph and Lamarcus Aldridge? Because by using per 36 one can try to argue that.

yes, i would take scola over randolph 10 times out of 10, not over aldrige tough.

juno10
09-16-2011, 02:27 PM
yes, i would take scola over randolph 10 times out of 10, not over aldrige tough.

:pity:

Swashcuff
09-16-2011, 02:39 PM
yes, i would take scola over randolph 10 times out of 10, not over aldrige tough.

I know you would Croon ;)

Raps08-09 Champ
09-16-2011, 03:13 PM
yea i only use it when comparing guys that play under 36 mins when they should clearly play around that mark. example would be Ty Lawson last season...I'd look at his per 36 stats objectively because he'll definitely play those type of mins in the future

There is also the factor of how he will last for 36 mins and how his production will alter as he plays longer.

There are some players who's production will drop by a lot if they play more than they should.

Like say someone scores 20 PPG in 20 mins, doesn't mean they'll score 36 in 36 mins.

Production usually drops after a certain point. That's the case for some players.

tredigs
09-16-2011, 03:16 PM
I'm glad that people who before last season were ready to crown KD as the best player in the NBA have come to their senses. Most of the world wanted him to be the best, because he's likable and he's not LeBron, but he just isn't and never should have been considered so.

I actually think 7 is low...but as long as he isn't being in contention for #1, I'm happy.
Awww c'mon my manram.

I'm not sure that there's anybody (other than insane homers... which I didn't see any from OKC to be honest) or absolute Lebron haters that said something like that (honestly none even come to mind). Everybody knew/knows that Lebron is better than KD and that wasn't ready to change this season.

His argument was that he may be better than Cp3 (when non-100%), DWade (valid argument) and Kobe (I'd say clear at this point). He's rated too low here, and could be as high as 2-3 (and truthfully - MAYBE 1, if he steps up his overall game and balls/wins the ship over Lebron/Wade).

His game lacks too many factors to likely overrun Lebron though.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-16-2011, 03:17 PM
yes, i would take scola over randolph 10 times out of 10, not over aldrige tough.

You need to be banned for that.

JordansBulls
09-16-2011, 03:21 PM
Awww c'mon my manram.

I'm not sure that there's anybody (other than insane homers... which I didn't see any from OKC to be honest) or absolute Lebron haters that said something like that (honestly none even come to mind). Everybody knew/knows that Lebron is better than KD and that wasn't ready to change this season.

His argument was that he may be better than Cp3 (when non-100%), DWade (valid argument) and Kobe (I'd say clear at this point). He's rated too low here, and could be as high as 2-3 (and truthfully - MAYBE 1, if he steps up his overall game and balls/wins the ship over Lebron/Wade).

His game lacks too many factors to likely overrun Lebron though.

Actually Kenny Smith 2 seasons ago when Durant was 2nd in MVP voting said that in 3 years that he would be the best in the league.

Hellcrooner
09-16-2011, 05:09 PM
You need to be banned for that.

for waht, fo rnot being impressed with ballhogs that personal pad stats?

Chronz
09-16-2011, 10:04 PM
I've always wanted to ask someone else's opinion on this how do you rate Todd MacCulloch among the Centres in 00-01?
Awesome.


I don't value using per 36 in an argument because it's not what they actually did during those 36 mins.
Thats fine, but you wouldnt be having much of an opinion to put worth on such matters if it wasnt for the realization that Per Minute rates are so important, along with the fact that they are > measuring players by per game averages. Per minute stats gave birth to per possession stats and so on.


If a player plays more minutes per game due to fatigue he may not be as good a scorer, rebounder, shot blocker.
Except you have no evidence that this occurs, Ive shown you the study but I get the feeling the meaning was lost on you, if anything its the opposite.


I think comparing players on a per 36 basis as your only indication as to who is better than whom will not necessarily give you accurate results.

You dont just brush them off is my point, not any more so than you brush off per game averages.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-16-2011, 10:19 PM
for waht, fo rnot being impressed with ballhogs that personal pad stats?

Is Monta not better than Calderon?

Monta has padded stats like crazy. He is clearly better though.

Even if Randolph wasn't a ball hog, he's still better.

naps
09-16-2011, 10:31 PM
Why is Kobe Bryant rated so lowwww? He's better than Dirk, and he's better than Wade IMO

In no way, shape, or form. You take off the homer glasses and you can see it's 2011. Kobe is ranked exactly where he was supposed to. People are prisoners of moment and that's why Kobe was rated to high in last 2 years rankings.

beasted86
09-17-2011, 12:55 AM
DWade (valid argument)

I'd like to hear the valid argument that has Durant better than Wade. I dunno, scoring 2 more points a game in more minutes is not doing enough for me to see where the argument can be made.

Greet
09-17-2011, 01:01 AM
I voted KD.

But why the **** is Bynum up there, and why the **** isn't Deron up there?

naps
09-17-2011, 01:23 AM
yes, i would take scola over randolph 10 times out of 10, not over aldrige tough.

Cronner is mad because Gasol is not on the poll :laugh2:

naps
09-17-2011, 01:27 AM
His argument was that he may be better than Cp3 (when non-100%), DWade (valid argument) and Kobe (I'd say clear at this point). He's rated too low here, and could be as high as 2-3 (and truthfully - MAYBE 1, if he steps up his overall game and balls/wins the ship over Lebron/Wade).

His game lacks too many factors to likely overrun Lebron though.

wait, what? I want to see that valid argument. What does Durant do better than Wade except shooting the ball?

EDIT: I too think Durant is voted low here. In my book he's #5. But I'll wait for your response on the above question.

Greet
09-17-2011, 01:29 AM
wait, what? I want to see that valid argument. What does Durant do better than Wade?

Score

Avenged
09-17-2011, 01:36 AM
Cronner is mad because Gasol is not on the poll :laugh2:

He should be considering who's there over him.

naps
09-17-2011, 04:57 AM
Score

Bother to elaborate? Shooting is a part of scoring, did you not know that? There are many other ways of scoring.
And scoring is a part of the game. There are many aspects of the game. I want to know in what aspects of the game Durant is better than Wade now. That was a question to tredigs since he claimed it's a valid argument. I am not sure where you stand in this debate.

naps
09-17-2011, 05:03 AM
He should be considering who's there over him.

Avenged24, I agree with you that guys like Gasol, Deron, Melo should be in the poll already but MHC wanted to follow a strict and fair policy that he already explained plenty of times. So I don't really get this complaining stuff. I mean guys like Bynum, Manu are not gonna be picked before Rose, Durant anyway. I am not saying this a perfect system, but hey MHC couldn't figure out a better one, so lets just stick with this. He's not trying to screw any player intentionally.

EDIT: Voting for someone (even though you don't believe that player deserves this) so that your player can be included in the poll is pathetic. You can check out the poll if you wanna know what I mean.

Mishmin
09-17-2011, 05:16 AM
I'll take DWill over Bynum or Manu.

SteBO
09-17-2011, 07:59 AM
Dwyane Wade is a better all around player than Durant on both ends of the court. Durant may be a better scorer, but he doesn't have the same defensive impact Wade has. Durant is still somewhat a one-dimensional scorer in my opinion. I'd like to see some valid arguments as to why Durant could be over Wade.

29$JerZ
09-17-2011, 08:06 AM
Dwyane Wade is a better all around player than Durant on both ends of the court. Durant may be a better scorer, but he doesn't have the same defensive impact Wade has. Durant is still somewhat a one-dimensional scorer in my opinion. I'd like to see some valid arguments as to why Durant could be over Wade.

Other than youth and his potential defensively I don't see how you could make an argument. Wade still has a few years left before he slows down too so it's not like the Gap is close.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-17-2011, 08:16 AM
Dwyane Wade is a better all around player than Durant on both ends of the court. Durant may be a better scorer, but he doesn't have the same defensive impact Wade has. Durant is still somewhat a one-dimensional scorer in my opinion. I'd like to see some valid arguments as to why Durant could be over Wade.

Wade is more one-dimensional than Durant.

SteBO
09-17-2011, 08:18 AM
Wade is more one-dimensional than Durant.
How so?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-17-2011, 08:39 AM
How so?

Wade is more of a slasher with unconsistent jumpshot while durant may not be as good as dwayne at attacking the hole but he has a way better jumper than D-Wade.

tredigs
09-17-2011, 10:23 AM
wait, what? I want to see that valid argument. What does Durant do better than Wade except shooting the ball?

EDIT: I too think Durant is voted low here. In my book he's #5. But I'll wait for your response on the above question.


I'd like to hear the valid argument that has Durant better than Wade. I dunno, scoring 2 more points a game in more minutes is not doing enough for me to see where the argument can be made.

I don't think KD's better than Wade; I think Wade's still better and more important to a team that wants to win a ship than both D. Howard and Durant. But, the argument is definitely there for KD. The kid is a 6'10" SF who has the reach of a center, never gets hurt, and can both slash and pull up from any point on the court. He's a rare breed of a player that the league hasn't actually ever seen before; there's a reason why he consistently puts up 30 points a game and leads the regular season, post-season, and **** All-Star game in scoring (and on top of his flat out legendary free throw drawing techniques/drains aid in him having a greater efficiency than most in the NBA - including Wade). Basically, what it comes down to is that if you leave KD open from inside 35, you're getting drained on - and that wreaks havoc on a defense (in turn, exhausts on offense).

Add to that improved defense (absolutely a + defender at this point, helps his team tremendously on that end), fantastic leadership/work ethic and 8+ boards a game in any game that matters from the SF position, closing ability in the waning seconds of deciding playoff games - and your argument is there.

And again, after seeing Durant take over in the biggest moments and capitalizing during the 2011 playoffs (while despite dominating in some series, we definitely saw Wade ride a distant shotgun to Lebron in the crucial moments of the Celtics matchup and in the bulk of the Bulls series - a series there's NO chance the Heat would have won without LBJ's absurd play), the only true facet D. Wade has over Durant is not leadership or killer instinct, but playmaking. And Wade has that in droves. But really, as he should - he's a 6'4" shooting guard who used to play point and has the highest usage % in the league more often than not. KD does his "playmaking" for his teammates on tireless back cuts and screen and roles that defenses almost always send two defenders after (leaving Westbrook to ISO and either slash for the layup, pull up from 15 or kick out to Ibaka/whoever if the post comes too). It's a hugely underrated aspect of Durant's playmaking ability, he works HARD for the ball, but as a fan you'd still like to see his actual passing get better.

All that said, still Wade for me over Durant (for reasons that have been laid out and seen long before this season), but - yes, the argument is there.

wizardman34
09-17-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm starting to realize how much you all don't follow sports. To say Dwight Howard is the 2nd best playerbin the league is freaking crazy. He dunks and has no one to challenge him in the league at his position. Also KD is a great scorer but he is not a better player than rose nor carmelo, he hasn't been in the league long enough to be a better player than melo ( especially since they are both similar type players melo just has a much better post game) and d rose plays better defense than KD as well it's not superb but it's better. Look at more than just scoring people, try to understand the game completely before picking the best players in the game. Think about Jordan being named the best player w/o magic, isiah, Clyde, mitch,Reggie etc playing in his era. Thats what needs to be viewed with DH, he has no competition.

Swashcuff
09-17-2011, 11:15 AM
I'm starting to realize how much you all don't follow sports. To say Dwight Howard is the 2nd best playerbin the league is freaking crazy. He dunks and has no one to challenge him in the league at his position. Also KD is a great scorer but he is not a better player than rose nor carmelo, he hasn't been in the league long enough to be a better player than melo ( especially since they are both similar type players melo just has a much better post game) and d rose plays better defense than KD as well it's not superb but it's better. Look at more than just scoring people, try to understand the game completely before picking the best players in the game. Think about Jordan being named the best player w/o magic, isiah, Clyde, mitch,Reggie etc playing in his era. Thats what needs to be viewed with DH, he has no competition.

Bob Cousy won league MVP how much competition did he have at his position?

In 09-10 Kevin Durant scored 30.1 PPG with a TS% of 60.7 becoming the first player since Michael Jordan to do that. KD is only one of 5 players in NBA history to accomplish such a feat. Is Carmelo or Rose a better scorer than he is? GTFO

Don't come in here and chastise us when your opinion is baseless.

As for saying Dwight has no one to challenge him, Chuck Hayes, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kendrick Perkins, Al Horford, Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat, Emeka Okafor, Joakim Noah etc etc are all in the league. Can you name 5 Cs one their level defensively when Wilt was at his best?

Sadds The Gr8
09-17-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm starting to realize how much you all don't follow sports. To say Dwight Howard is the 2nd best playerbin the league is freaking crazy. He dunks and has no one to challenge him in the league at his position. Also KD is a great scorer but he is not a better player than rose nor carmelo, he hasn't been in the league long enough to be a better player than melo ( especially since they are both similar type players melo just has a much better post game) and d rose plays better defense than KD as well it's not superb but it's better. Look at more than just scoring people, try to understand the game completely before picking the best players in the game. Think about Jordan being named the best player w/o magic, isiah, Clyde, mitch,Reggie etc playing in his era. Thats what needs to be viewed with DH, he has no competition.

stopped reading there. don't tell me i know nothing about sports then say Melo is better than Durant without bringing up one convincing fact. Melo's better because he's been in the league longer? :facepalm:

wizardman34
09-17-2011, 11:26 AM
Haha imagine that, clearly y'all can't read but that's expected. Melo can score at will he also has a better all around game than KD. KD great upcoming player can't post,defend and for his size doesnt rebound effectively. He is a scoring machine nothing more. I didnt say DH wasn't a good player just not the 2nd best player in the league. Get your minds right, hoffa

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-17-2011, 11:34 AM
Haha imagine that, clearly y'all can't read but that's expected. Melo can score at will he also has a better all around game than KD. KD great upcoming player can't post,defend and for his size doesnt rebound effectively. He is a scoring machine nothing more. I didnt say DH wasn't a good player just not the 2nd best player in the league. Get your minds right, hoffa

Durant is more efficient than Melo, thats why he's a better player.

Sadds The Gr8
09-17-2011, 11:36 AM
Haha imagine that, clearly y'all can't read but that's expected. Melo can score at will he also has a better all around game than KD. KD great upcoming player can't post,defend and for his size doesnt rebound effectively. He is a scoring machine nothing more. I didnt say DH wasn't a good player just not the 2nd best player in the league. Get your minds right, hoffa

who gives a **** if KD can't post he's still a more efficient scorer

naps
09-17-2011, 01:30 PM
I don't think KD's better than Wade; I think Wade's still better and more important to a team that wants to win a ship than both D. Howard and Durant. But, the argument is definitely there for KD. The kid is a 6'10" SF who has the reach of a center, never gets hurt, and can both slash and pull up from any point on the court. He's a rare breed of a player that the league hasn't actually ever seen before; there's a reason why he consistently puts up 30 points a game and leads the regular season, post-season, and **** All-Star game in scoring (and on top of his flat out legendary free throw drawing techniques/drains aid in him having a greater efficiency than most in the NBA - including Wade). Basically, what it comes down to is that if you leave KD open from inside 35, you're getting drained on - and that wreaks havoc on a defense (in turn, exhausts on offense).

Add to that improved defense (absolutely a + defender at this point, helps his team tremendously on that end), fantastic leadership/work ethic and 8+ boards a game in any game that matters from the SF position, closing ability in the waning seconds of deciding playoff games - and your argument is there.

And again, after seeing Durant take over in the biggest moments and capitalizing during the 2011 playoffs (while despite dominating in some series, we definitely saw Wade ride a distant shotgun to Lebron in the crucial moments of the Celtics matchup and in the bulk of the Bulls series - a series there's NO chance the Heat would have won without LBJ's absurd play), the only true facet D. Wade has over Durant is not leadership or killer instinct, but playmaking. And Wade has that in droves. But really, as he should - he's a 6'4" shooting guard who used to play point and has the highest usage % in the league more often than not. KD does his "playmaking" for his teammates on tireless back cuts and screen and roles that defenses almost always send two defenders after (leaving Westbrook to ISO and either slash for the layup, pull up from 15 or kick out to Ibaka/whoever if the post comes too). It's a hugely underrated aspect of Durant's playmaking ability, he works HARD for the ball, but as a fan you'd still like to see his actual passing get better.

All that said, still Wade for me over Durant (for reasons that have been laid out and seen long before this season), but - yes, the argument is there.


tedigs, this not a valid argument. I mean I kinda get what you are saying but I was expecting something statistical.
And Wade is definitely a better leader, has more of a killer instinct.
The only thing Durant has over Wade are his shooting. Wade is better at pretty much everything else, including rebounding, shot blocking, which are rather surprising if you think about their height difference. (Durant has 0.4 rpg over Wade, but please don't tell me he's a better rebounder because he also has 6/7 inches over Wade and played 2 more mins a game than Wade).
And how's Durant more efficient than Wade? Their TS% is equal (even though Durant is a better FT shooter; That means Wade scores more efficiently from the court), Wade leads in eFG% as well. I don't see how Durant is more efficient than Wade.
And Wade leads in all the major advanced statistical catagories such as WS, WS/48, PER. Wade's USG% is only 1% more than Durant so it's pretty much identical.
Wade is a much better defender and passer as well.

I get that Durant is getting there but it's not a valid argument when the other is leading in almost everything.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2011, 02:10 PM
I'm starting to realize how much you all don't follow sports. To say Dwight Howard is the 2nd best playerbin the league is freaking crazy. He dunks and has no one to challenge him in the league at his position. Also KD is a great scorer but he is not a better player than rose nor carmelo, he hasn't been in the league long enough to be a better player than melo ( especially since they are both similar type players melo just has a much better post game) and d rose plays better defense than KD as well it's not superb but it's better. Look at more than just scoring people, try to understand the game completely before picking the best players in the game. Think about Jordan being named the best player w/o magic, isiah, Clyde, mitch,Reggie etc playing in his era. Thats what needs to be viewed with DH, he has no competition.

nice attitude. You said nothing here but your personal opinions with no basis yet criticize those who do provide explanations.

If you think that Dwight Howard's game is nothing but dunks, I think it is you who knows nothing about basketball.

beasted86
09-17-2011, 02:56 PM
@tredigs

It's clear Durant is a better shooter, but that said, I'm not even sure he's a better scorer. Durant has consistently had a very high assisted % for one of the top scorers in the league. Over 60% for that matter. Wade has shown the ability to be a workhorse low 20% assisted player creating everything, and he's also shown he can play off the ball and allow LeBron or other guards to facilitate.

I'm not saying Durant couldn't create more offense on his own, but what I'm saying is it would be interesting to see how his development would have come along had the Thunder not added an elite PG to pass him the ball.


Continue on the scoring, he's only scored a handful more points than Wade over the past 2 seasons (3.6 PPG more in 09-10, 2.2 PPG more in 10-11), while playing more minutes on a faster paced team both seasons. Those factors along with the assisted % lead me to believe he's no better at scoring than Wade. Then to add the other factors, passing, defense, leadership, etc.. and the argument for Durant becomes weaker. They are both solid rebounders for their position, but take into Durant is 6'10 and Wade is 6'4" and I'd give favor to Wade in that category too.

To me a 'valid argument' should have more points in favor of Durant.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2011, 03:06 PM
Wade's defensive dominance makes him a better player than Durant anyways. Shouldn't even be a discussion amongst the two. Neither should there be next year when the media is shoving Durant down our throats as the MVP.

Durant is a great player, and will only get better, but there is a nice gap still between he and Wade, who is one of the top two way players in the NBA

Chill_Will_24
09-17-2011, 03:56 PM
They've already put Kobe up at #6, when he should realistically be below both Durant and Rose.

I'm not complaining, I'm not too concerned about these polls.. It's just the only interesting thing to come into this forum and talk about right now, so I might as well.

Its just opinion anyway. Deron Williams is still the 2nd best pg yet Rose will certainly be voted ahead of him on the PSD rankings. It shows the flaw in the voting system that the OP came up with. Not a knock on the OP because there are no way that this could've been done without flaw and this was the best possible way; However Deron Williams should be made an exception and be put in the next poll

Hawkeye15
09-17-2011, 04:03 PM
Its just opinion anyway. Deron Williams is still the 2nd best pg yet Rose will certainly be voted ahead of him on the PSD rankings. It shows the flaw in the voting system that the OP came up with. Not a knock on the OP because there are no way that this could've been done without flaw and this was the best possible way; However Deron Williams should be made an exception and be put in the next poll

its based off the votes for the individual positions. If you have a problem with anything, its the PG rankings. This system attempts to deter homerism from taking over entirely.

Deron had a bad year dude. It has to matter when there were PG's who had a better year, and one of which won the MVP award.

Trust me, I have stated many times that I feel very uneasy saying Rose is better than Deron until we see two things: Rose keep playing that way or better, and what a healthy Deron looks like again. I would honestly still take Deron over Rose, but its not an insult to anyone to rank Rose above him after this last season.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2011, 04:05 PM
if you make an expection for Deron, you will have 200 Knicks fans that ruin the thread crying over Melo not being on the past ones. just saying Chill Will 24

Chill_Will_24
09-17-2011, 04:18 PM
if you make an expection for Deron, you will have 200 Knicks fans that ruin the thread crying over Melo not being on the past ones. just saying Chill Will 24

Touche. Better to have no exceptions

jimm120
09-17-2011, 04:18 PM
I hate rose, but some of you are delusional.

Deron can be the #2 pg, and has been before, but his 2010-11 season wasnt. He was at 19 ppg and 9 ast a game. Great numbers. Then his numbers dropped to 14ppg and 12 assists. Yeah assist went up but his scoring not only plummeted, but his average went down to like 35% . Oh, then he went out and MISSED 1/4 of the season.

He went from the teens to # 9 but for THIS YEAR, he produced well below his # 9 ranking.

So, unless other top 10 players dropped significantly (more than deron's drop), i dont undersrand why people are even discussing deron

29$JerZ
09-17-2011, 05:32 PM
if you make an expection for Deron, you will have 200 Knicks fans that ruin the thread crying over Melo not being on the past ones. just saying Chill Will 24

180 of them are M.I.A so it wouldn't be that bad :)

tredigs
09-18-2011, 11:11 AM
tedigs, this not a valid argument. I mean I kinda get what you are saying but I was expecting something statistical.
And Wade is definitely a better leader, has more of a killer instinct.
The only thing Durant has over Wade are his shooting. Wade is better at pretty much everything else, including rebounding, shot blocking, which are rather surprising if you think about their height difference. (Durant has 0.4 rpg over Wade, but please don't tell me he's a better rebounder because he also has 6/7 inches over Wade and played 2 more mins a game than Wade).
And how's Durant more efficient than Wade? Their TS% is equal (even though Durant is a better FT shooter; That means Wade scores more efficiently from the court), Wade leads in eFG% as well. I don't see how Durant is more efficient than Wade.
And Wade leads in all the major advanced statistical catagories such as WS, WS/48, PER. Wade's USG% is only 1% more than Durant so it's pretty much identical.
Wade is a much better defender and passer as well.

I get that Durant is getting there but it's not a valid argument when the other is leading in almost everything.


Well fair enough - that's all off the top of my head but in basketball not everything is stats my friend. Statistically KD was generally considered better 2 years ago than this past season in a lot of facets (and compared to D. Wade in a lot of facets), but his overall defense (knowing how to defend against weakside picks and just his lateral quickness in general improved big time... yet no changes in any discernible stat that I've seen most people come by - would be curious about his Synergy stats tho').

Not to mention his closing ability. I watched 50-60 Thunder games both last year and this year (+playoffs), and I can say without question the kid was better - and it showed up in droves during the post-season, especially in the waning minutes of closing playoff games.

Anyway - still half drunk and about to start Football Day. Just trust me - KD's only a half step behind Wade. 1a/b, if you will.

Commence Football Day.

kozelkid
09-18-2011, 12:26 PM
Its just opinion anyway. Deron Williams is still the 2nd best pg yet Rose will certainly be voted ahead of him on the PSD rankings. It shows the flaw in the voting system that the OP came up with. Not a knock on the OP because there are no way that this could've been done without flaw and this was the best possible way; However Deron Williams should be made an exception and be put in the next poll

Not really... I mean Deron has the consistency of more great seasons than Rose, but the season Rose had is undoubtedly better than any season Deron ever had with whichever metric you use, be it PER, WS/48 or adj +/-. This is just cold hard fact right here. So as Hawkeye correctly said, if Rose can continue this level of play or even better, then he is without a doubt a better player. It's only debatable between the two right now because Deron has the longevity.

Same reason why I'd take Kobe over Rose right now even though statistically their seasons were very even last year. And while I think Rose will surpass Kobe this year, Kobe has the history. Although I personally would have Durant ahead of Kobe, but whatever.

goose14741
09-18-2011, 04:43 PM
you have ginobli, bynum and amare over melo? who are you?

FutureGM
09-18-2011, 04:53 PM
you have ginobli, bynum and amare over melo? who are you?

You can't figure out that each of the five members of the poll all play different positions, can you?

bovice163
09-18-2011, 05:07 PM
you have ginobli, bynum and amare over melo? who are you?

Melo doesn't belong in the top 10 anyway.

jimm120
09-18-2011, 05:31 PM
Melo doesn't belong in the top 10 anyway.

I hate rose, but some of you are delusional. Deron can be the #2 pg, and has been before, but
his 2010-11 season wasnt. He was at 19 ppg and
9 ast a game. Great numbers. Then his numbers
dropped to 14ppg and 12 assists. Yeah assist went
up but his scoring not only plummeted, but his
average went down to like 35% . Oh, then he went out and MISSED 1/4 of the season. He went from the teens to # 9 but for THIS YEAR,
he produced well below his # 9 ranking. So, unless other top 10 players dropped
significantly (more than deron's drop), i dont
undersrand why people are even discussing deron

SO I DONT SEE HOW MELO WAS A top 10 player before and not now. He goes from 8th to 7th. Then improves his 3point shooting to 42%. Also, he didnt drop off in production. Still the top rebounding SF. So he didny degress. He only improved.

Yet people here are saying that he isnt magically top 10 anymore.

Its as delusional as the people tht keep saying Rose should be lower than deron this year. Rose got better and even won the mvp. Deron was great (still not as good as rose) then fell off BAD. Then missed 1/4 of the season. Yet people say he was better than rose?! IT IS THE SAME THINKING WITH CARMELO. The guy improved from the previous season, where he ranked 7th. Yet people incoherently are saying he isnt top 10.

What are you guys? Republican tea party people that just repeat a lie and hope that by repeating it, it will make thigs true?

Swashcuff
09-18-2011, 06:54 PM
I hate rose, but some of you are delusional. Deron can be the #2 pg, and has been before, but
his 2010-11 season wasnt. He was at 19 ppg and
9 ast a game. Great numbers. Then his numbers
dropped to 14ppg and 12 assists. Yeah assist went
up but his scoring not only plummeted, but his
average went down to like 35% . Oh, then he went out and MISSED 1/4 of the season. He went from the teens to # 9 but for THIS YEAR,
he produced well below his # 9 ranking. So, unless other top 10 players dropped
significantly (more than deron's drop), i dont
undersrand why people are even discussing deron

SO I DONT SEE HOW MELO WAS A top 10 player before and not now. He goes from 8th to 7th. Then improves his 3point shooting to 42%. Also, he didnt drop off in production. Still the top rebounding SF. So he didny degress. He only improved.

Yet people here are saying that he isnt magically top 10 anymore.

Its as delusional as the people tht keep saying Rose should be lower than deron this year. Rose got better and even won the mvp. Deron was great (still not as good as rose) then fell off BAD. Then missed 1/4 of the season. Yet people say he was better than rose?! IT IS THE SAME THINKING WITH CARMELO. The guy improved from the previous season, where he ranked 7th. Yet people incoherently are saying he isnt top 10.

What are you guys? Republican tea party people that just repeat a lie and hope that by repeating it, it will make thigs true?

Before the season was Derrick Rose, Kevin Love, Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin, Lamarcus Aldridge and Zach Randolph considered in the running as top 15 players? No they weren't.

Rose improved greatly, Dirk had his most efficient season of his career and won the Finals MVP leading a team with no superstar talent to a title.

Tell us something for someone who tries to make a case for Melo you do a horrible job of following him. He did not shoot 42% on the season, he is not nor was he ever the top rebounding SF that's a title held by Gerald Wallace.

Truth is Melo is a hell of a lot closer to Westbrook, Aldridge, Radolph, Pierce (who quietly had one of the best seasons of his entire career) Amar'e, KG and maybe a couple others than he is to Rose, Durant, LeBron, Wade, CP3 and Dwight Howard.

I have him at around 9/10/11 on my list but that's purely because of the fact that I view him in high regard. He should fall no longer than top 15 IMO.