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lilojmayo
09-13-2011, 10:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv8cR36Y73U
As I continue my study of NBA players styles. I couldn't help but notice just how close young iverson when he was playing point guard reminds me of the Derrick Rose. A smaller, even quicker ( as crazy as that sounds) version.

They have similar movements in their offense game acrobatic layups, floaters. They even do their inside-outside crossovers the same. Obviously they are huge differences Rose is much more of a freak athlete imo, more physically imposing. In terms of playing style Rose like most PG's now ( Cp3, Curry, Wall etc) uses a ton of high pick and roll action. From watching Iverson even when he played PG, they didn't run a lot of high pick and rolls for him, to my surprise. It was like he was an SG in mentality that just happened to bring the ball up. He reminded me on Kobe in a sense because as a PG he did his most damage off of isolation.


Iverson's game transformed a lot when they moved him to shooting guard. He became a really really really good moving without the ball. He could have been a really efficient player if he didn't love shot jacking the way he did.

This isn't another Rose should play SG thread, because he shouldn't. He is too good at pick and roll situations, and the bulk of those go to the PGs. That's something that Iverson never preferred.

but Does anyone else see this Rose-Iverson similarity? Or am I dreaming in my sleep

gwrighter
09-13-2011, 10:13 AM
they are similar offensive players but Iverson is the better defensive player imo.

bbcmillionaire
09-13-2011, 10:30 AM
they are similar offensive players but Iverson is the better defensive player imo.

Lol for now

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 10:54 AM
This thread was already closed on another forum, if you guys want to keep it open here let's try and stay away from bashing players based on nothing but ignorance. They are both phenomenal players let's respect them for what they did/are doing.

beasted86
09-13-2011, 10:57 AM
Iverson ran a lot of ISO because nobody could keep up with him 1 on 1, he was that quick.

I recall during the Bulls/Heat series people claiming the same logic for Rose saying they were annoyed with the Bulls running pick & roll allowing the Heat to trap, and that they should instead run more isolation and let Rose destroy whoever was guarding him 1 on 1. But the fact was the Heat have good individual defenders in LeBron & Wade that can force anyone into the help defense or force a contested shot, so it didn't work. Also Rose while very quick is not as quick as prime Iverson. Prime Iverson is like an even faster Ty Lawson.

Anyway, Rose is a smarter scorer as far as shot selection. His playoff FG% didn't reflect it, and Rose did somewhat go away from his normal shot selection, but anyway I think in the long term, Rose will continue shooting at higher percentages than Iverson did for most of his career.

29$JerZ
09-13-2011, 11:00 AM
Rose reminds me of a Marbury/Francis Hybrid with a better work ethic and a good head

beasted86
09-13-2011, 11:07 AM
Rose reminds me of a Marbury/Francis Hybrid with a better work ethic and a good head

Steve Francis has always been the closest comparison.

Marbury was an underrated passer and is often labelled wrongly as a ballhog.

meloman1592
09-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Steve Francis is a better comparison

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 12:18 PM
The difference is rose already tries to involve teamates every now and then.

The one that is really more similar to iverson its Jennings.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 12:41 PM
The difference is rose already tries to involve teamates every now and then.

The one that is really more similar to iverson its Jennings.

Crooner which of Allen Iverson's teammates could have effectively make a difference on offense? Please tell me

chicago lulz
09-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Crooner which of Allen Iverson's teammates could have effectively make a difference on offense? Please tell me

Clarence Weatherspoon...wish I could make a Withoutherspoon joke, but...

lilojmayo
09-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Iverson ran a lot of ISO because nobody could keep up with him 1 on 1, he was that quick.

I recall during the Bulls/Heat series people claiming the same logic for Rose saying they were annoyed with the Bulls running pick & roll allowing the Heat to trap, and that they should instead run more isolation and let Rose destroy whoever was guarding him 1 on 1. But the fact was the Heat have good individual defenders in LeBron & Wade that can force anyone into the help defense or force a contested shot, so it didn't work. Also Rose while very quick is not as quick as prime Iverson. Prime Iverson is like an even faster Ty Lawson.

Anyway, Rose is a smarter scorer as far as shot selection. His playoff FG% didn't reflect it, and Rose did somewhat go away from his normal shot selection, but anyway I think in the long term, Rose will continue shooting at higher percentages than Iverson did for most of his career.

Rose has a really good shot selection. Iverson didn't, But what shocked me was how Iverson was so good playing without the ball. Most SGs in the NBA now can't do that.

And with PG's ball dominating more then ever, it really leaves SGs out to dry.

lilojmayo
09-13-2011, 01:08 PM
The difference is rose already tries to involve teamates every now and then.

The one that is really more similar to iverson its Jennings.


Jennings has Iverson's swag. similar build, and speed. But Iverson had that killer crossover that would leave defenders feet glued to the floor.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 01:14 PM
Crooner which of Allen Iverson's teammates could have effectively make a difference on offense? Please tell me

Im nto telling he shouldnt have been the main scorer in his team.
But he would often Chuck a shot when double teamed and ignore the open man.
If you are in Nba you are gonna be able to make an open shot 75% of the time, no matter how "role player" you are.
In those decisions he should have passed the ball and the TEAM would ahve benefited from it.

Rose, in fact some times thinks pass first ( not always but sometimes) Ai would always think Shoot first.

So i find them to be different, and jennings more close to Ai style, whats wrong bout that?

Geargo Wallace
09-13-2011, 01:19 PM
You're doing a study on player's styles? Goin' for a PhD or something?

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 01:21 PM
Steve Francis is a better comparison

When was Steve Francis a MVP caliber player?

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 01:25 PM
Rose can develop into an I Thomas kind of Pg, IMO.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 01:36 PM
Im nto telling he shouldnt have been the main scorer in his team.
But he would often Chuck a shot when double teamed and ignore the open man.
If you are in Nba you are gonna be able to make an open shot 75% of the time, no matter how "role player" you are.
In those decisions he should have passed the ball and the TEAM would ahve benefited from it.

Rose, in fact some times thinks pass first ( not always but sometimes) Ai would always think Shoot first.

So i find them to be different, and jennings more close to Ai style, whats wrong bout that?

Agreed on everything, however when A.I. finally got some help (if you want to call Chris Webber that) he showed that he could be more passive. Many times in his career he spoke of that, spoke of the fact that he indeed wants to be a better facilitator.

I would fully agree that Brandon Jennings is a extremely poor man's Allen Iverson. The Brandon Jennings comparison for more reasons that one is more accurate. In terms of skill and production however Jennings can't hold A.I.'s jock.

LTBaByyy
09-13-2011, 01:38 PM
Rose is Steve Francis def not Iverson!

Jennings plays like Iverson

LTBaByyy
09-13-2011, 01:40 PM
Here goes Swashcuff crying about ANYTHING you say about Iverson, even if you make comparisons

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 01:40 PM
What are you guys really trying to compare? Style or production because IMO the OP is talking from a style of play standpoint and offensively Francis and Rose can be very comparable for a whole lotta reasons. Is Rose better HELL yes. Same for A.I. and Brandon Jennings. Is A.I. a better player than Jennings there is no doubt about it but Jennings game is like that of A.I.'s in certain aspects.

RZZZA
09-13-2011, 01:41 PM
I see similarity between Iverson and Rose in the killer crossovers and the great reverse layups.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 01:41 PM
Here goes Swashcuff crying about ANYTHING you say about Iverson, even if you make comparisons

Are you drunk? I am agreeing. Crooner was being disrespectful and I was setting him straight. Tell me something. If A.I. involved his teammates more where would his teams have gone?

faze38
09-13-2011, 01:57 PM
I ca't say Rose is a better athlete yes he looks more explosive but that is mostly do the 4 inches in height he has over Iverson. I mean Iverson is only about 5'10-5'11" and I know it doesn't seem like much but I have a few friends that are 6'3" and they tower over me and i'm 5'11". My friends do look athletic but if u ask them 9 times ot of 10 they will say i'm the better athlete because nothing is worse then seeing a smal guy my size dunk on one of them. Which A.I. has done to a few big guys!

PurpleJesus
09-13-2011, 02:00 PM
congratulations on being the first person to make the Iverson/Rose comparison

Evolution23
09-13-2011, 02:45 PM
Iverson was way more clutch than Rose at this point in his career. But Rose is still young and I think the Miami series should've inspired him to bring it more in the playoffs, especially in the 4th quarter.

Evolution23
09-13-2011, 02:47 PM
What are you guys really trying to compare? Style or production because IMO the OP is talking from a style of play standpoint and offensively Francis and Rose can be very comparable for a whole lotta reasons. Is Rose better HELL yes. Same for A.I. and Brandon Jennings. Is A.I. a better player than Jennings there is no doubt about it but Jennings game is like that of A.I.'s in certain aspects.

If you are talking playing styles, I gota agrree both players are very similar in that they both utilize their speed to beat defenders. They are both great at improvising at the rim, although Iverson was better at drawing fowls and getting the line.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 03:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv8cR36Y73U
As I continue my study of NBA players styles. I couldn't help but notice just how close young iverson when he was playing point guard reminds me of the Derrick Rose. A smaller, even quicker ( as crazy as that sounds) version.

They have similar movements in their offense game acrobatic layups, floaters. They even do their inside-outside crossovers the same. Obviously they are huge differences Rose is much more of a freak athlete imo, more physically imposing. In terms of playing style Rose like most PG's now ( Cp3, Curry, Wall etc) uses a ton of high pick and roll action. From watching Iverson even when he played PG, they didn't run a lot of high pick and rolls for him, to my surprise. It was like he was an SG in mentality that just happened to bring the ball up. He reminded me on Kobe in a sense because as a PG he did his most damage off of isolation.


Iverson's game transformed a lot when they moved him to shooting guard. He became a really really really good moving without the ball. He could have been a really efficient player if he didn't love shot jacking the way he did.

This isn't another Rose should play SG thread, because he shouldn't. He is too good at pick and roll situations, and the bulk of those go to the PGs. That's something that Iverson never preferred.

but Does anyone else see this Rose-Iverson similarity? Or am I dreaming in my sleep


Thank you for not letting this go unnoticed. Everyone talks about how Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, move(d) without the ball; but AI should be recognized just as much as these guys for that skill. He used off the ball screens perfectly, and his speed and stamina made life hell for anyone trying to chase after him.

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 03:22 PM
Rose is Steve Francis def not Iverson!

Jennings plays like Iverson

Francis made the playoffs one time in his career and never received any type of votes for league mvp. In fact, he never showed up even 15th on the list.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 04:20 PM
Eh, Rose may already be better than Iverson ever was. Their styles are a bit different. Iverson was not a PG, and was needed off the ball and Philly ran a ton of iso's for him. Iverson was a volume scorer who could take over games, but he was an inefficient scorer, and for most of his career, was a liability on defense. Hence the makeup of his playoff teams.

THE MTL
09-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Derrick Rose is more like Stephon Marbury with a leadership intangibles.

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 04:55 PM
they are similar offensive players but Iverson is the better defensive player imo.

I would have to disagree, Iverson was not a very good man defender. AI was great at getting into the passing lanes but at no point was he a better overall defender than Rose is now. I think Thibs deserves some credit for that and Rose build certainly factors in because Iverson would get taken out of plays when screened.


Rose can develop into an I Thomas kind of Pg, IMO.

I think this is the best comparison for Rose, a modern day Isiah. Even then, I think Rose has a lot of stylistic similarities to other aggressive guards but his game is unique. I forgot who said it last year, maybe Bill Simmons, but Rose is the Lebron James of PGs, an absolute freak athlete who also has the skill and iq needed to be a truly great player.


Iverson was way more clutch than Rose at this point in his career. But Rose is still young and I think the Miami series should've inspired him to bring it more in the playoffs, especially in the 4th quarter.

By 22, Rose had 3 playoff appearances and took his team to the ECF. By 22 Iverson had yet to make the playoffs and was posting inferior statistics while carrying less offensive load.


Eh, Rose may already be better than Iverson ever was.

I agree, I don't think it's much of a question and I loved Iverson, hell I was one of the first to get that arm sleeve he started wearing, rocked in with Answer IV's and Question's...those were the days.

thapastime7
09-13-2011, 05:02 PM
just to clarify u mean rose reminds u of a young iverson not the other way around. iverson like or not is what alot of players now a days base there game around. to bash him because of his off courts crap is ludicrious

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 05:16 PM
By 22, Rose had 3 playoff appearances and took his team to the ECF. By 22 Iverson had yet to make the playoffs and was posting inferior statistics while carrying less offensive load.



I agree, I don't think it's much of a question and I loved Iverson, hell I was one of the first to get that arm sleeve he started wearing, rocked in with Answer IV's and Question's...those were the days.

Lol AI took tyrone hill, mutombo, eric snow, aaron mckie, and matt geiger to the Finals. can't get out of the ECF with the team he's got? GTFOH.

Lol @ Rose being better then AI.

Take into consideration Rose is 3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier. Y'all are ridiculous.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 05:17 PM
Eh, Rose may already be better than Iverson ever was. Their styles are a bit different. Iverson was not a PG, and was needed off the ball and Philly ran a ton of iso's for him. Iverson was a volume scorer who could take over games, but he was an inefficient scorer, and for most of his career, was a liability on defense. Hence the makeup of his playoff teams.

On that stuff again I see.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 05:18 PM
just to clarify u mean rose reminds u of a young iverson not the other way around. iverson like or not is what alot of players now a days base there game around. to bash him because of his off courts crap is ludicrious

about 95% of the posters on here.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 05:21 PM
This Bulls team is better then any team AI ever had.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 05:34 PM
he had stackhouse and derrick coleman in 97.
bell/Geiger/Lynch/mxwell/Mckie/Snow/Mutombo ALL GREAT in defense, with mculloch and J jones being a good Offensive players in 01.

then he added van horn to all that defense.

then all that defense + coleman and GLEN ROBINSON.

Then Igoudala and Webber.

then a stacked nuggets and pistons.

he cant complaint bout lack of help

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 05:41 PM
Lol AI took tyrone hill, mutombo, eric snow, aaron mckie, and matt geiger to the Finals. can't get out of the ECF with the team he's got? GTFOH.

Lol @ Rose being better then AI.

Take into consideration Rose is 3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier. Y'all are ridiculous.

The post I replied to said Iverson was more clutch at this point in his career, there really is no basis for that statement regardless of who Iverson took the Finals at a later point in his career.

Yes Rose is taller and stronger, that is part of what makes Rose the better player, I don't understand why you would hold that against him except to jock AI.


just to clarify u mean rose reminds u of a young iverson not the other way around. iverson like or not is what alot of players now a days base there game around. to bash him because of his off courts crap is ludicrious

Is anyone in here bashing him for his off the court actions? I believe most have questioned his shot selection not his life choices.

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 05:44 PM
Crooner which of Allen Iverson's teammates could have effectively make a difference on offense? Please tell me

Honestly, who does Rose have outside of maybe Deng?

Noah is no where near a legit offensive threat, Boozer is not dominating either. If you watch Bulls games you will see that Rose sets up his teammates well enough, they just fail to execute. So the bad teammates argument is not gonna work here.

LeGacy is Music
09-13-2011, 05:46 PM
Rose reminds me of a Marbury/Francis Hybrid with a better work ethic and a good head

Yes But Marbury has a better outside 3 game but I imagine Rose will get better

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 05:49 PM
Honestly, who does Rose have outside of maybe Deng?

Noah is no where near a legit offensive threat, Boozer is not dominating either. If you watch Bulls games you will see that Rose sets up his teammates well enough, they just fail to execute. So the bad teammates argument is not gonna work here.

deng and boozer arent better than the Stackhouse and Coleman Iverson had.


and i dont even want to go and compare the Iverson Nuggets to present bulls.

lilojmayo
09-13-2011, 05:51 PM
You're doing a study on player's styles? Goin' for a PhD or something?


For basketball. One of my trainers told me I need to be more of a student of the game, and start watching game film. So I watch a lot of players, mainly point guards, and a few wing players.

So i know a lot of players tendencies now, that I didn't before. It actually helps translate to my actual game. Especially in pick and roll situations.

LeGacy is Music
09-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Rose is Steve Francis def not Iverson!

Jennings plays like Iverson

I agree with the Jennings playing like AI But Rose is more Marbury I remember when Marbury made Yao Ming Fall LMFAO!!!

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 05:58 PM
he had stackhouse and derrick coleman in 97.
bell/Geiger/Lynch/mxwell/Mckie/Snow/Mutombo ALL GREAT in defense, with mculloch and J jones being a good Offensive players in 01.

then he added van horn to all that defense.

then all that defense + coleman and GLEN ROBINSON.

Then Igoudala and Webber.

then a stacked nuggets and pistons.

he cant complaint bout lack of help

Hellcrooner get the hell out of here.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 05:59 PM
Honestly, who does Rose have outside of maybe Deng?

Noah is no where near a legit offensive threat, Boozer is not dominating either. If you watch Bulls games you will see that Rose sets up his teammates well enough, they just fail to execute. So the bad teammates argument is not gonna work here.

Tell me how many players on the 00-01 76ers not named Allen Iverson scored more than 25 points in a game. When you do that get back to me.

lilojmayo
09-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Thank you for not letting this go unnoticed. Everyone talks about how Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, move(d) without the ball; but AI should be recognized just as much as these guys for that skill. He used off the ball screens perfectly, and his speed and stamina made life hell for anyone trying to chase after him.

Yeah. Even I didn't know that about AI. We all know him for his killer crossovers. but around 03-05 due mastered that art.

One of his 50 point games he had it may have been against the Hornets, due looked more like Ray Allen/Rip. Almost everything was coming off a screen, curling, backdoors, flaring baseline to catch and shoots.

At the same time AI loved to take too many difficult shots and his FG% reflected that throughout his career.

He should have been a 45% FG if he had a better shot selection.


But he was such a beast though, ppl remember his late part of his career too much. Its all about his prime, not to mention he made one of the best shoe commericals with Jadakiss.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:01 PM
deng and boozer arent better than the Stackhouse and Coleman Iverson had.


and i dont even want to go and compare the Iverson Nuggets to present bulls.

To say some garbage like this you must really hate Allen Iverson, I mean seriously Crooner.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:03 PM
Tell me how many players on the 00-01 76ers not named Allen Iverson scored more than 25 points in a game. When you do that get back to me.

Those guys that didn't score 25 ppg, they are the guys that got AI to the Finals.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:07 PM
Those guys that didn't score 25 ppg, they are the guys that got AI to the Finals.

Bro you really need to give it up you're acting like your shoe size and not your age.

Nothing you said proved anything to be correct. Quite frankly I don't care of your opinion because unlike other A.I. naysayers you can't hold an adult conversation given the fact that you are consumed by ignorance.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:07 PM
Tell me how many players on the 00-01 76ers not named Allen Iverson scored more than 25 points in a game. When you do that get back to me.

the same dudes, how many times did they get scored on 25 points in a game by the man they were deffending?

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:10 PM
Bro you really need to give it up you're acting like your shoe size and not your age.

Nothing you said proved anything to be correct. Quite frankly I don't care of your opinion because unlike other A.I. naysayers you can't hold an adult conversation given the fact that you are consumed by ignorance.

You respond to my posts because in your heart, you know I'm right.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:13 PM
the same dudes, how many times did they get scored on 25 points in a game by the man they were deffending?

Trust me I'll do the research and find that answer for you.

Better question then.

How many combined 20+ game scores did the entire Philadelphia 76ers roster outside of Allen Iverson had?

Either way you slice the cake Allen Iverson had a HUGE burden to carry on that team. No finals team in the post shot clock era has ever featured a roster of 1 player to score 12 or more PPG.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:14 PM
You respond to my posts because in your heart, you know I'm right.

What I know I my heart about will get me banned for saying it to you so I shall be quiet.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:16 PM
Trust me I'll do the research and find that answer for you.

Better question then.

How many combined 20+ game scores did the entire Philadelphia 76ers roster outside of Allen Iverson had?

Either way you slice the cake Allen Iverson had a HUGE burden to carry on that team. No finals team in the post shot clock era has ever featured a roster of 1 player to score 12 or more PPG.

the catch here, is the east was ridicously bad in those times.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:16 PM
he had stackhouse and derrick coleman in 97.
bell/Geiger/Lynch/mxwell/Mckie/Snow/Mutombo ALL GREAT in defense, with mculloch and J jones being a good Offensive players in 01.

then he added van horn to all that defense.

then all that defense + coleman and GLEN ROBINSON.

Then Igoudala and Webber.

then a stacked nuggets and pistons.

he cant complaint bout lack of help

ahahahahahah Van Horn, Webber with No knees, DC and Robinson, a combined age of almost 80, Iguodala was not then what he is now, the 27 win pistons? Are we talkin about the same team?

The Nuggets weren't the team the Bull's are.

Your lying to yourself Crooner and your just in denial now, You might as well say that Marc Jackson and Matt Harpring were excellent side kicks and complimentary players to AI. I would LOVE to see DRose take that 01 76ers team to 35 wins. let alone 56 and a Finals appearance. You've lost all credibility, cuz now your just talkin out ur ***

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:17 PM
Why does every single Allen Iverson thread have to turn into the same thing? With the same two posters chiming in every time to share their ignorance? It's amazing isn't it. These two posters who can't even add to the debate other than taking jabs at Allen Iverson are in every single thread in which name is mentioned and no matter what the discussion may be they attempt to ill speak Allen Iverson every chance they get. I mean are you guys serious? It's like dealing with people who hate on LeBron fro being LeBron. Get a life.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:19 PM
No finals team in the post shot clock era has ever featured a roster of 1 player to score 12 or more PPG.

AI is a special talent with an especially big ego, and it took a very special team to get him to the Finals.

And they were a much better team with Ratliff than the were with Deke.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:19 PM
Next say; Theo Ratliff is a great scorer cuz that entire season, offensivly Ratliff was 2nd leading scorer. Y'all are foolish.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:20 PM
the catch here, is the east was ridicously bad in those times.

Crooner there is no damn catch. It's a fact regardless. Are you trying to tell me that that was the only season in which the East was bad? Was the West at any notoriously bad? Fact as which ever way you want to look at it. It's NEVER BEEN done by anyone period.

Basic common sense will tell you that if a player who is asked to do all his team's scoring is going to take a major hurting in the efficiency aspect because of the mere fact that NO one is a credible offensive threat. No one.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:21 PM
Next say; Theo Ratliff is a great scorer cuz that entire season, offensivly Ratliff was 2nd leading scorer. Y'all are foolish.

Your love for AI doesn't make him better than he was

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:21 PM
ahahahah he said the "stacked Pistons" ahahahahahah

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:22 PM
AI is a special talent with an especially big ego, and it took a very special team to get him to the Finals.

And they were a much better team with Ratliff than the were with Deke.

And yet you ignore the rest of my post. Act your age llemon stop cherry picking and attempt to debate. No one gives a blue **** about your opinion if you're not going to attempt to back it up. NO ONE.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:22 PM
Your love for AI doesn't make him better than he was

Your hate for him doesn't affect him in the very least and certainly does not make him less of a player.

TheRunKiller
09-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Rose at 22 > Iverson at 22

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Your love for AI doesn't make him better than he was

lol Check the stats, homie.

MVP
11 All-Stars
4 Scoring Championships
7 time all NBA teams
2 all-star MVP's

Number's don't lie.

You just underrate him, horribly.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Your hate for him doesn't affect him in the very least and certainly does not make him less of a player.

And there is the difference. You love Iverson, so your perception of him skewed.

I watch basketball and see Iverson for the player he was. I've got no hate for him. I just now the type of player he was.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:29 PM
lol Check the stats, homie.

MVP
11 All-Stars
4 Scoring Championships
7 time all NBA teams
2 all-star MVP's

Number's don't lie.

You just underrate him, horribly.

I rate him as a high-volume, low percentage, high turnover, not defending his man so he can play the passing lanes, no practicing SG in a PGs body.

Which part of that rating is wrong?

And lie is what numbers do best.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:31 PM
And there is the difference. You love Iverson, so your perception of him skewed.

I watch basketball and see Iverson for the player he was. I've got no hate for him. I just now the type of player he was.

ask anyone here on PSD what's my perception of Allen Iverson. Ask anyone.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:33 PM
lol Check the stats, homie.

MVP = Political/media led popularity contest
11 All-Stars = popularity contest
4 Scoring Championships = Ballhoghing contest
7 time all NBA teams = Political/media led popularity contest
2 all-star MVP's = Ballhoghing contest

Number's don't lie.

You just underrate him, horribly.

so......

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:34 PM
I rate him as a high-volume, low percentage, high turnover, not defending his man so he can play the passing lanes, no practicing SG in a PGs body.

Which part of that rating is wrong?

And lie is what numbers do best.

WTF are you talkin about?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:35 PM
so......

So no awards, nor nominations have any credibilty?

#'s don't lie.

The Media didn't make all of Allen Iverson's shots, politics didn't injure and force AI to go out there any play every single night, popularity didn't score 24,000 points for him.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:36 PM
ask anyone here on PSD what's my perception of Allen Iverson. Ask anyone.

Why would I ask someone? I'm reading your posts, and they say to me that your love for AI leads you to over-estimate how good he was as a player.

That's okay. We all have our prejudices.

But I don't have a prejudice against Iverson. I just see him for the type of player he was.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:39 PM
he had stackhouse and derrick coleman in 97.
bell/Geiger/Lynch/mxwell/Mckie/Snow/Mutombo ALL GREAT in defense, with mculloch and J jones being a good Offensive players in 01.

then he added van horn to all that defense.

then all that defense + coleman and GLEN ROBINSON.

Then Igoudala and Webber.

then a stacked nuggets and pistons.

he cant complaint bout lack of help



You are mixed up on a lot of things bud.



1.) The same Stackhouse and Coleman that were able to lead the Sixers to 18 wins the previous season. Suggesting that these two were good teammates is a joke. DC was specifically traded because of the bad influence he was having on AI, and he was just flat out lazy. He also managed to shoot 41% the year before he was traded, and this guy is 6'10".

2.) Vernon Maxwell didn't even make it to the new year before he was let go by the Sixers.

Raja Bell was a rookie that wasn't signed until April of 01' and he played in 5 games that year.

Jumaine Jones was a good offensive player? Most of his points came off of lobs from Allen Iverson.

MacCulloch was decent enough but barely played.


3.) All this defense you speak of was dumped immediately after the Sixers went to the Finals and in return we brought back that big slob Derrick Coleman and Matt Harpring who was a total stiff. Pat Croce resigned from his post as the team president, and he was the guy that had the vision for the Sixers with Allen Iverson as the leader.The Sixers had a championship caliber team and it was disassembled almost instantly.

4.) The Keith Van Horn deal was actually a good one, and it showed. The Sixers were back around a 50 win team and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs and played a very tight series with Detroit. Yet, after this season another move was made and Keith Van Horn was gone.

5.) The Sixers brought in Big Dog who could not stay healthy and Larry Brown had just left the team. Don't act as if Big Dog was some sort of big help to AI, because he played half a season and missed a month in the beginning of the season and was done by March 4. The guy managed to play 9 games the rest of his career, so it's not like he was in his prime.

6.) AI only got to play with Iggy his first 2 years in the league. Now, some of the truly special players are able to make big impacts their first couple years, but Iggy is not that special. However, the Sixers did once again show some improvement with Jim O'Brien as head coach. They improved by 10 wins, but then fired their coach again. So we're back at square 1.

7.) Are you really gonna suggest that Chris Webber was supposed to be a huge help? C-Webb was damaged goods when he got to Philly and had no lift in his legs whatsoever after his surgery. Like Big Dog, his career ended 9 games into his next season after Philly.



Let's review, Pat Croce leaves then all hell breaks loose. The Sixers organization is like a chicken with its head cut off (a hockey guy runs the team). They go through 5 coaches in AI's last 3.5 seasons and trade for a new #2 option damn near every offseason thus denying any chance of developing team chemistry.

Let me also throw this in there. What were those Sixers role players before they played with AI? and what were they after playing with him? Did Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Theo Ratliff, etc., impress you before and after their time with the Sixers? These players were only relevant when they played with Allen Iverson.


Meanwhile, if you look at all the teams that were winning championships with the exception of the mid 2000's Pistons, they had multiple All Time greats.

Shaq and Kobe

Shaq and D-Wade

Duncan and Robinson

Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili

Garnett, Allen, and Pierce

etc..



AI had Mutombo, and they were better with Ratliff that year anyway. AI can't complain about a lack of help? Gimme a break.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:40 PM
So no awards, nor nominations have any credibilty?

#'s don't lie.

The Media didn't make all of Allen Iverson's shots, politics didn't injure and force AI to go out there any play every single night, popularity didn't score 24,000 points for him.


when voting is involved? no.

When dont take efficiency on account? no.

I can admit that being the top scorer takes out some efficiency because of the volume of shots needed but NOT AS MUCH as it took from his efficiency.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:42 PM
the same dudes, how many times did they get scored on 25 points in a game by the man they were deffending?

Did you really watch any of those games? AI played defense as hard if not harder than anyone else. They were a top notch defense and AI was an asset to that defense, not a liability. They say defense is all effort, and AI brought it every night.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:43 PM
You are mixed up on a lot of things bud.



1.) The same Stackhouse and Coleman that were able to lead the Sixers to 18 wins the previous season. Suggesting that these two were good teammates is a joke. DC was specifically traded because of the bad influence he was having on AI, and he was just flat out lazy. He also managed to shoot 41% the year before he was traded, and this guy is 6'10".

2.) Vernon Maxwell didn't even make it to the new year before he was let go by the Sixers.

Raja Bell was a rookie that wasn't signed until April of 01' and he played in 5 games that year.

Jumaine Jones was a good offensive player? Most of his points came off of lobs from Allen Iverson.

MacCulloch was decent enough but barely played.


3.) All this defense you speak of was dumped immediately after the Sixers went to the Finals and in return we brought back that big slob Derrick Coleman and Matt Harpring who was a total stiff. Pat Croce resigned from his post as the team president, and he was the guy that had the vision for the Sixers with Allen Iverson as the leader.The Sixers had a championship caliber team and it was disassembled almost instantly.

4.) The Keith Van Horn deal was actually a good one, and it showed. The Sixers were back around a 50 win team and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs and played a very tight series with Detroit. Yet, after this season another move was made and Keith Van Horn was gone.

5.) The Sixers brought in Big Dog who could not stay healthy and Larry Brown had just left the team. Don't act as if Big Dog was some sort of big help to AI, because he played half a season and missed a month in the beginning of the season and was done by March 4. The guy managed to play 9 games the rest of his career, so it's not like he was in his prime.

6.) AI only got to play with Iggy his first 2 years in the league. Now, some of the truly special players are able to make big impacts their first couple years, but Iggy is not that special. However, the Sixers did once again show some improvement with Jim O'Brien as head coach. They improved by 10 wins, but then fired their coach again. So we're back at square 1.

7.) Are you really gonna suggest that Chris Webber was supposed to be a huge help? C-Webb was damaged goods when he got to Philly and had no lift in his legs whatsoever after his surgery. Like Big Dog, his career ended 9 games into his next season after Philly.



Let's review, Pat Croce leaves then all hell breaks loose. The Sixers organization is like a chicken with its head cut off (a hockey guy runs the team). They go through 5 coaches in AI's last 3.5 seasons and trade for a new #2 option damn near every offseason thus denying any chance of developing team chemistry.

Let me also throw this in there. What were those Sixers role players before they played with AI? and what were they after playing with him? Did Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Theo Ratliff, etc., impress you before and after their time with the Sixers? These players were only relevant when they played with Allen Iverson.


Meanwhile, if you look at all the teams that were winning championships with the exception of the mid 2000's Pistons, they had multiple All Time greats.

Shaq and Kobe

Shaq and D-Wade

Duncan and Robinson

Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili

Garnett, Allen, and Pierce

etc..



AI had Mutombo, and they were better with Ratliff that year anyway. AI can't complain about a lack of help? Gimme a break.


i love that etc... and cutting the bar of all time greats at 08 :D

btw its me or Melo played with MELO, NENE and CAMBY

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Why would I ask someone? I'm reading your posts, and they say to me that your love for AI leads you to over-estimate how good he was as a player.

That's okay. We all have our prejudices.

But I don't have a prejudice against Iverson. I just see him for the type of player he was.

Were you not the one who entered a thread with your first post being Allen Iverson sucked? Saying he's too sucky to play in the NBA when NO ONE on this forum for maybe months have said that he was good enough?

You have prejudice if you can't say anything decent about the man.

I don't over estimate JACK. I appreciate. You hate.

You'll NEVER see me go into any thread and say any player sucks/sucked or is sucky. NEVER.

I am defending Allen Iverson against your hate and ignorance.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:45 PM
I would have to disagree, Iverson was not a very good man defender. AI was great at getting into the passing lanes but at no point was he a better overall defender than Rose is now. I think Thibs deserves some credit for that and Rose build certainly factors in because Iverson would get taken out of plays when screened.



I think this is the best comparison for Rose, a modern day Isiah. Even then, I think Rose has a lot of stylistic similarities to other aggressive guards but his game is unique. I forgot who said it last year, maybe Bill Simmons, but Rose is the Lebron James of PGs, an absolute freak athlete who also has the skill and iq needed to be a truly great player.



By 22, Rose had 3 playoff appearances and took his team to the ECF. By 22 Iverson had yet to make the playoffs and was posting inferior statistics while carrying less offensive load.



I agree, I don't think it's much of a question and I loved Iverson, hell I was one of the first to get that arm sleeve he started wearing, rocked in with Answer IV's and Question's...those were the days.



AI walked onto an 18 win team, D-Rose was playing for a team that won 33 games the year before. Let's not pretend that the situations were anything alike.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:45 PM
Were you not the one who entered a thread with your first post being Allen Iverson sucked? Saying he's too sucky to play in the NBA when NO ONE on this forum for maybe months have said that he was good enough?

You have prejudice if you can't say anything decent about the man.

I don't over estimate JACK. I appreciate. You hate.

You'll NEVER see me go into any thread and say any player sucks/sucked or is sucky. NEVER.

I am defending Allen Iverson against your hate and ignorance.

er.....adam morrison sucks

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:48 PM
Were you not the one who entered a thread with your first post being Allen Iverson sucked? Saying he's too sucky to play in the NBA when NO ONE on this forum for maybe months have said that he was good enough?

You have prejudice if you can't say anything decent about the man.

I don't over estimate JACK. I appreciate. You hate.

You'll NEVER see me go into any thread and say any player sucks/sucked or is sucky. NEVER.

I am defending Allen Iverson against your hate and ignorance.

My statement was that besides putting up big numbers, he sucked. I believe that.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:49 PM
i love that etc... and cutting the bar of all time greats at 08 :D

btw its me or Melo played with MELO, NENE and CAMBY

His one full season in Denver Nene played in 16 games. Yet another person you claimed to be at AI's disposal that really wasn't. Also in AI's one full season in Denver, the Nuggets won 50 games for the first time in 20 years.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:49 PM
My statement was that besides putting up big numbers, he sucked. I believe that.

I'm still waiting on that Shaq quote, guy.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:49 PM
i love that etc... and cutting the bar of all time greats at 08 :D

btw its me or Melo played with MELO, NENE and CAMBY

Not really Nene, Knee surgery + cancer.

But Melo, and AI lead the Nugget's two of there best records in franchise History. Got anything else crooner?

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:51 PM
Not really Nene, Knee surgery + cancer.

But Melo, and AI lead the Nugget's two of there best records in franchise History. Got anything else crooner?

where did it lead them in the playoffs?

JWO35
09-13-2011, 06:51 PM
Steve Francis is a better comparison

This

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:52 PM
My statement was that besides putting up big numbers, he sucked. I believe that.

ahah


"Besides the MVP, and a big #'s Karl Malone sucked!"
"Besides all the assists and steals, Stockton sucked!"
"Besides all the dunks, and blocked shots, Dwight Howard sucks!"

...That's what you sound like.

Your arguments have no ground. And your lack of knowledge about the game of Basketball let alone of Allen Iverson is kind of embarressing.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:52 PM
where did it lead them in the playoffs?

Let's just blame Allen Iverson for everything right? Ok let's go.

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:54 PM
I'm still waiting on that Shaq quote, guy.

Haven't been able to find the Shaq quote yet.

Was juat able to Shaq's statements that Curry was the best Center in the East (until Shaq arrived) and Shaq's statement that there were only three real Centers in the league.....Shaq, Yao and Curry.

But Shaq stating Curry is the next Shaq is out there, and I will find it.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 06:55 PM
where did it lead them in the playoffs?

So what are we talkin about? Are we talkin about what Allen Iverson did... or are we talkin about, how good or bad the Denver Nuggets were?

Got anything else...? Since you wanna jump all over the place with your baseless aruments. I'll give you a few more topics to cover to look even more silly.

Don't forget to ackowledge:

-Braids
-Tat's
-Alocoholic
-Gambling issues
-Practice?
-Thug
-World Hunger

pd7631
09-13-2011, 06:56 PM
Fact: He played with only two All-Stars in Philly (Theo Ratliff in 2001 and the soon-to-be-decrepit Dikembe Mutombo in 2002), as well as a host of overpaid role players (Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Kyle Korver, Kenny Thomas, Marc Jackson, Brian Skinner, Greg Buckner, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Corliss Williamson), overpaid underachievers (Derrick Coleman, Keith Van Horn, Sam Dalembert, Joe Smith), overpaid and washed-up veterans (Todd MacCulloch, Toni Kukoc, Chris Webber, Glenn Robinson, Matt Geiger, Billy Owens), and underachieving lottery picks (Jerry Stackhouse, Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes).

Fact: Other than Mutombo, Iverson's four best teammates were Coleman (the signature head case of the 1990s), Stackhouse (a selfish scorer who's been traded three times), Ratliff (a shotblocker with no offensive skills) and Andre Igoudala (a talented athlete who hasn't improved in two years).

Fact: Since Larry Brown left in 2003, he's played for four coaches in four years (Randy Ayers, Chris Ford, Jim O'Brien and Mo Cheeks)

Fact: Thanks to the C-Webb trade and their botched salary cap, the Sixers can't trade for an impact guy unless they keep rolling the dice with somebody else's problem ... a strategy that hasn't worked for them in five years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061213

llemon
09-13-2011, 06:56 PM
So what are we talkin about? Are we talkin about what Allen Iverson did... or are we talkin about, how good or bad the Denver Nuggets were?

Got anything else...? Since you wanna jump all over the place with your baseless aruments. I'll give you a few more topics to cover to look even more silly.

Don't forget to ackowledge:

-Braids
-Tat's
-Alocoholic
-Gambling issues
-Practice?
-Thug

Not practicing is an on-court issue.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:01 PM
Not practicing is an on-court issue.

Perfect. You fell right into the trap :)

Show me an article or anything, that Allen Iverson did not practice.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 07:03 PM
Perfect. You fell right into the trap :)

Show me an article or anything, that Allen Iverson did not practice.

C'mon dude, even AI has admitted to not practicing

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:06 PM
C'mon dude, even AI has admitted to not practicing

Not exactly... In that interview, he never once said he didn't/doesn't practice. Showing up late is different.

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:09 PM
Perfect. You fell right into the trap :)

Show me an article or anything, that Allen Iverson did not practice.

"If the coach says I missed practice, then that's that"

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:09 PM
You don't have this resume' without practicing.

MVP
11 All-Stars
4 Scoring Championships
7 time all NBA teams
2 all-star MVP's
ROY
Big-East Freshman of the Year
2 Big-East DPOY
24,000 points

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:11 PM
"If the coach says I missed practice, then that's that"

Yeah he's missed practice before... But it wasn't as bad as the people who only listen to the media made it out to be.

You don't accomplish this stuff without practicing.

MVP
11 All-Stars
4 Scoring Championships
7 time all NBA teams
2 all-star MVP's
ROY
Big-East Freshman of the Year
2 Big-East DPOY
24,000 points

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:11 PM
You don't have this resume' without practicing.

MVP
11 All-Stars
4 Scoring Championships
7 time all NBA teams
2 all-star MVP's
ROY
Big-East Freshman of the Year
2 Big-East DPOY
24,000 points

I'm sure he practiced a lot.....by himself. Probably how he became such a selfish ballplayer

BullySixChicago
09-13-2011, 07:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv8cR36Y73U
As I continue my study of NBA players styles. I couldn't help but notice just how close young iverson when he was playing point guard reminds me of the Derrick Rose. A smaller, even quicker ( as crazy as that sounds) version.

They have similar movements in their offense game acrobatic layups, floaters. They even do their inside-outside crossovers the same. Obviously they are huge differences Rose is much more of a freak athlete imo, more physically imposing. In terms of playing style Rose like most PG's now ( Cp3, Curry, Wall etc) uses a ton of high pick and roll action. From watching Iverson even when he played PG, they didn't run a lot of high pick and rolls for him, to my surprise. It was like he was an SG in mentality that just happened to bring the ball up. He reminded me on Kobe in a sense because as a PG he did his most damage off of isolation.


Iverson's game transformed a lot when they moved him to shooting guard. He became a really really really good moving without the ball. He could have been a really efficient player if he didn't love shot jacking the way he did.

This isn't another Rose should play SG thread, because he shouldn't. He is too good at pick and roll situations, and the bulk of those go to the PGs. That's something that Iverson never preferred.

but Does anyone else see this Rose-Iverson similarity? Or am I dreaming in my sleep

Naw you are not dreaming you are having a nightmare trying to compare Rose and Iverson

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:12 PM
"If the coach says I missed practice, then that's that"

Cont..

"I may have missed one practice this year but if somebody says he missed one practice of all the practices this year, then that's enough to get a whole lot started."

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:13 PM
I'm sure he practiced a lot.....by himself. Probably how he became such a selfish ballplayer

Yeah, Problley. :facepalm:

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:14 PM
Cont..

"I may have missed one practice this year but if somebody says he missed one practice of all the practices this year, then that's enough to get a whole lot started."

That's AI speaking.

Larry Brown said he missed PRACTICES.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:16 PM
That's AI speaking.

Larry Brown said he missed PRACTICES.

Practices could mean 2, 3 or 500. Who knows? Either way there is no factual evidence to state that he never practiced.

Hustlenomics
09-13-2011, 07:19 PM
Hellcrooner get the hell out of here.

^. If he thinks those were all good players he must secretly think Iverson is great

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Swashcuff
"Hellcrooner get the hell out of here."

ahahahahahahahahahah Classic.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:22 PM
The thread title is "Young Allen Iverson reminds me of Derrick Rose" and what are we sitting here, talking about practice We're supposed to be the comparing Rose's style of play to A.I.'s, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not the thread, not the thread, not the thread, but we're talking about practice. Not the thread that we spend days and days debating and debate every thread like it's our last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:24 PM
^. If he thinks those were all good players he must secretly think Iverson is great

I thought the very same thing.

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:26 PM
The thread title is "Young Allen Iverson reminds me of Derrick Rose" and what are we sitting here, talking about practice We're supposed to be the comparing Rose's style of play to A.I.'s, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not the thread, not the thread, not the thread, but we're talking about practice. Not the thread that we spend days and days debating and debate every thread like it's our last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

I responded to someone who stated he was setting a trap by mentioning practice.

Sorry if AI's practice behavior offended you. It seemed to offend Larry Brown also.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:27 PM
The thread title is "Young Allen Iverson reminds me of Derrick Rose" and what are we sitting here, talking about practice We're supposed to be the comparing Rose's style of play to A.I.'s, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not the thread, not the thread, not the thread, but we're talking about practice. Not the thread that we spend days and days debating and debate every thread like it's our last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

:laugh2:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:28 PM
I responded to someone who stated he was setting a trap by mentioning practice.

Sorry if AI's practice behavior offended you. It seemed to offend Larry Brown also.

and I asked for evidence, to support your claim... and I'm still waiting.

pd7631
09-13-2011, 07:28 PM
I responded to someone who stated he was setting a trap by mentioning practice.

Sorry if AI's practice behavior offended you. It seemed to offend Larry Brown also.

Must not have offended him that much, because Larry Brown talks about AI with more affection than I've ever heard another coach talk about one of their players.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 07:29 PM
Must not have offended him that much, because Larry Brown talks about AI with more affection than I've ever heard another coach talk about one of their players.

such affection he didnt want him on the bobcats?

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:29 PM
:laugh2:

Nice to see you can laugh at your own stupidity

pd7631
09-13-2011, 07:32 PM
such affection he didnt want him on the bobcats?

He actually did want him. Yet another fact you are wrong about.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:34 PM
such affection he didnt want him on the bobcats?

Please show us, where Coach Brown said he didn't want Iverson on the Bobcats.

llemon
09-13-2011, 07:34 PM
He actually did want him. Yet another fact you are wrong about.

Larry Brown SAID he wanted Iverson on the Bobcats.

There is a possibility that he spoke the truth, but Larry Brown is a notorious liar.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:35 PM
Nice to see you can laugh at your own stupidity

ahahah. Even nicer to see you can't have a civil discussion, with another adult without lying :D

Llemon you have no argument, wich is why you are nitpicking @ my posts, and found a smile and made an argument @ it, because that's your only reaction, you cannot stick to the topic, but rather tried to find an exit by insulting me personally. I think this is the second time I will have reccomnded for you to take a media literacy class.

Gators123
09-13-2011, 07:35 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3730471


Detroit Pistons guard Allen Iverson missed practice Thursday and will be levied a "hefty" fine, coach Michael Curry said.

"I'm surprised when guys are late; I'm surprised when they don't show," Curry said, according to the Detroit Free Press. "It's a pretty hefty fine to be late, or to miss, and once again, it's accountability for yourself and your teammates."

^ That was only a few weeks after the Pistons traded for him.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:37 PM
Larry Brown SAID he wanted Iverson on the Bobcats.

There is a possibility that he spoke the truth, but Larry Brown is a notorious liar.

:speechless:

Interesting.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:38 PM
Larry Brown SAID he wanted Iverson on the Bobcats.

There is a possibility that he spoke the truth, but Larry Brown is a notorious liar.

The irony.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 07:41 PM
Please show us, where Coach Brown said he didn't want Iverson on the Bobcats.

oh, do you think if he wanted him iverson the FA wouldnt have signed¿

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:43 PM
oh, do you think if he wanted him iverson the FA wouldnt have signed¿

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/240135-iverson-heading-to-the-bobcats-reuniting-with-coach-brown

It was about money.

See, It's soo hard to provide evidence to back up your claim.

If you and Llemon, were in court, y'all would have lost!

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:44 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3730471


^ That was only a few weeks after the Pistons traded for him.

And as a man he owned up to it.


"First of all, I have no excuses," Iverson said after Friday's shootaround. "I apologize to my teammates, first and foremost, the coaching staff, the organization and definitely our fans.

"It's something that shouldn't have happened and it won't happen again."

Did it happen again.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 07:45 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/240135-iverson-heading-to-the-bobcats-reuniting-with-coach-brown

It was about money.

See, It's soo hard to provide evidence to back up your claim.

If you and Llemon, were in court, y'all would have lost!

did he sign to grizz for pennies?

Keep drinking your own Coolaid.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 07:48 PM
did he sign to grizz for pennies?

Keep drinking your own Coolaid.

Signed with them for more $ then CHA would have offered him. Keep finding arguments that aren't there. :rolleyes:

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 07:57 PM
Signed with them for more $ then CHA would have offered him. Keep finding arguments that aren't there. :rolleyes:

just out of curiosity, tell me what woudl you answer to "iverson is a wife beater".

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:58 PM
just out of curiosity, tell me what woudl you answer to "iverson is a wife beater".

Now we're talking about Allen Iverson beating his wife :laugh:

I mean seriously just look at what this thread has come to.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 07:59 PM
Now we're talking about Allen Iverson beating his wife :laugh:

I mean seriously just look at what this thread has come to.
nah, is that i find hilarious how some people come with Excuses or " find me in the web where it says that....." about facts that are common Knowledge.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 08:01 PM
just out of curiosity, tell me what woudl you answer to "iverson is a wife beater".

Uhmmm... I've never heard such claims, of him actually assulting his wife. Or are you talkin about where he allegedly threw his wife out of the house naked, and went looking for her with a gun? lol

pd7631
09-13-2011, 08:05 PM
nah, is that i find hilarious how some people come with Excuses or " find me in the web where it says that....." about facts that are common Knowledge.

And your true colors show. You just can't stick to the basketball when it comes to AI, as your pure disdain for him as a person renders any of your opinions on him useless.

I'd like to see you prove that AI ever beat his wife. He was never found guilty of anything, and he has almost broken down when people even bring up the notion that he would do such a thing. In interviews immediately following games since AI broke into the league, he would often give a shout out to his wife and kids. This is a person who genuinely cares about his family, so let's not act like he's one of the dead beat professional athlete fathers.

Honestly, you can criticize his game all you want; but when you stoop to stuff like this you need to know when to shut up.

NYKNYGNYY
09-13-2011, 08:06 PM
you mean derrick rose reminds you of a young allen iverson haha

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 08:07 PM
nah, is that i find hilarious how some people come with Excuses or " find me in the web where it says that....." about facts that are common Knowledge.

fact

noun
1.
something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.
something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5.
Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.

Crooner in a court of law you'd be eaten alive. Don't think you can get away with your garbage on PSD.

fic·tion
n.
1.
a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.
b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.
2. A lie.
3.
a. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact.
b. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including novels and short stories.
4. Law Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 08:07 PM
And your true colors show. You just can't stick to the basketball when it comes to AI, as your pure disdain for him as a person renders any of your opinions on him useless.

I'd like to see you prove that AI ever beat his wife. He was never found guilty of anything, and he has almost broken down when people even bring up the notion that he would do such a thing. In interviews immediately following games since AI broke into the league, he would often give a shout out to his wife and kids. This is a person who genuinely cares about his family, so let's not act like he's one of the dead beat professional athlete fathers.

lol, defense since the end.

I guess you also believe that he was the wrong man at the wrong place when he almsot ended behind bars before nba.

llemon
09-13-2011, 08:07 PM
The irony.

Ironic because you are also a notorious liar and slanter of the truth?

Or are you saying you don't know basketball well enough to know that Larry Brown is a notorious liar?

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 08:08 PM
And your true colors show. You just can't stick to the basketball when it comes to AI, as your pure disdain for him as a person renders any of your opinions on him useless.

I'd like to see you prove that AI ever beat his wife. He was never found guilty of anything, and he has almost broken down when people even bring up the notion that he would do such a thing. In interviews immediately following games since AI broke into the league, he would often give a shout out to his wife and kids. This is a person who genuinely cares about his family, so let's not act like he's one of the dead beat professional athlete fathers.

Honestly, you can criticize his game all you want; but when you stoop to stuff like this you need to know when to shut up.

Crooner was the fly on the wall when A.I. crossed his wife with a 2x4 upside her head, just like he crosses guys on the basketball floor :pity:

Hustlenomics
09-13-2011, 08:09 PM
just out of curiosity, tell me what woudl you answer to "iverson is a wife beater".

Did Tawanna tell you that?

Raph12
09-13-2011, 08:09 PM
Rose has the added benefit of playing on a good team to start out, if AI had that luxury, things may have worked out very differently...

sargon21
09-13-2011, 08:36 PM
these AI threads suck

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 09:05 PM
Tell me how many players on the 00-01 76ers not named Allen Iverson scored more than 25 points in a game. When you do that get back to me.

Maybe its because AI averaged 4.6apg that season? Just saying...You cant expect your teammates to score over 25ppg when you average less than 5apg...

Hustlenomics
09-13-2011, 09:18 PM
^ He was the point guard?

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 09:23 PM
^ He was the point guard?

He didnt always play the PG position, however 90% of time the ball was in his hands. He could do anything he wanted with it.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 09:24 PM
Maybe its because AI averaged 4.6apg that season? Just saying...You cant expect your teammates to score over 25ppg when you average less than 5apg...

This makes no sense.

Allen Iverson was the SG, why is that his problem? It was Eric Snow's job to do the facilitating and A.I.'s to do the finishing. He accounted for more offensive for his team than any player in the league that season.

Maybe it's because however NONE of those players were capable on offense? Tell me as a Laker fan who was the most feared offensive threat outside of A.I. on my 76ers' 00-01 team?

Also could you then attempt to answer my follow up question. How many games of a 25+ game score (takes all aspects into consideration points, rebounds, assists, efficiency etc) did we see from his teammates, and how many did we see from him?

In 2006 Kobe averaged 4.5 apg, we saw 10 more games of 25+ ppg from his supporting cast. So what is Kobe the exception to the rule was Allen Iverson's cast just poorer offensively?

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 09:25 PM
He didnt always play the PG position, however 90% of time the ball was in his hands. He could do anything he wanted with it.

Did you watch that season? Allen Iverson played off the ball more that season than any time in his entire career.

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 09:29 PM
This makes no sense.

Allen Iverson was the SG, why is that his problem? It was Eric Snow's job to do the facilitating and A.I.'s to do the finishing. He accounted for more offensive for his team than any player in the league that season.

Maybe it's because however NONE of those players were capable on offense? Tell me as a Laker fan who was the most feared offensive threat outside of A.I. on my 76ers' 00-01 team?

Also could you then attempt to answer my follow up question. How many games of a 25+ game score (takes all aspects into consideration points, rebounds, assists, efficiency etc) did we see from his teammates, and how many did we see from him?

In 2006 Kobe averaged 4.5 apg, we saw 10 more games of 25+ ppg from his supporting cast. So what is Kobe the exception to the rule was Allen Iverson's cast just poorer offensively?

I understand your point, but dont forget the fact that he handled the ball most of the time.

Are seriously going to compare Kobe's 06 team with AI's 2001 team?

Snow vs Smush Parker?
Dikembe vs Kwame Brown?

There is no question that AI had a better team, with players CAPABLE to contribute on offense. As the leader of the team, he had to get those player more involved in the offense. The same argument can go against Kobe, however you really think there is anything that can make the likes of Kwame Brown to play better, if even the GOAT Michael Jordan himself could not do such a thing?

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 09:30 PM
On that stuff again I see.

???

I don't even understand that reply. I have made it well known that I think Iverson is the greatest chucker in history, but is widely overrated by most. His teams were built around his inefficiencies, and his strengths as well. He also played in the weakest conference of any modern era, where 50 wins got you HCA for a round or two.

I loved watching him play, and don't really care to argue with AI fanboys who will list his accolades and awards like they are a real measure of how good he was, but instead I see a player who shot a lot, played a ton of minutes, gambled on defense all night, and was simply overrated in the scheme of things, regardless of me loving to watch him play and understanding he was indeed a great player. He just wasn't that great.

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 09:31 PM
Did you watch that season? Allen Iverson played off the ball more that season than any time in his entire career.

It doesn't matter. It does not change the fact that AI had the ball most of the time. Maybe he played more off ball that season, but most of the time he was the main ball-handler.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 09:34 PM
I still think Rose may have been better this year than any year Iverson played. And I would bet my house he ends up a better player overall

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 09:35 PM
I understand your point, but dont forget the fact that he handled the ball most of the time.

Are seriously going to compare Kobe's 06 team with AI's 2001 team?

Snow vs Smush Parker?
Dikembe vs Kwame Brown?

Who's comparing the team? :confused: Are we not speaking of offense and scoring? Do you think that Allen Iverson's supporting cast is better than Kobe's?

Also Kobe dominated the ball more than A.I. did and shot. So shouldn't that also have a negative correlation with his teammates being able to score more than 25 ppg?


There is no question that AI had a better team, with players CAPABLE to contribute on offense. As the leader of the team, he had to get those player more involved in the offense. The same argument can go against Kobe, however you really think there is anything that can make the likes of Kwame Brown to play better, if even the GOAT Michael Jordan himself could not do such a thing?

I don't understand why you capitalized capable. I don't understand your points in the very least. A.I.'s job is not to get the rest of the team involved on offense. That's the PG's job. A.I.'s job was to put the ball in the hole. There is a reason the position is called the Shooting Guard.

Also why mention just Kwame? Lamar Odom averaged over 14 ppg. That's 2 more points than any of A.I.'s cast members.

Tell me more about A.I.'s cast who was CAPABLE on offense.

llemon
09-13-2011, 09:35 PM
:speechless:

Interesting.

You obviously don't know much about the NBA, other than the superficial stuff.

I've grown weary of trying to educate you punks.

Enjoy your version of the NBA.

It seems some of you guys are as blind about the NBA as many Americans are about what is happening to America.

But it's your world.

I'm just hoping to be out of here before the REAL stuff starts to happen

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 09:38 PM
I still think Rose may have been better this year than any year Iverson played. And I would bet my house he ends up a better player overall

I have no problem with any of this. The strides Derrick Rose has made in his first 3 years in the league (also finding a comfortable niche early in his career) leads me to believe the same thing.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 09:39 PM
It doesn't matter. It does not change the fact that AI had the ball most of the time. Maybe he played more off ball that season, but most of the time he was the main ball-handler.

Same for Kobe in 05-06 what's his excuse for not getting his teammates more involved offensively?

Hustlenomics
09-13-2011, 09:40 PM
I still think Rose may have been better this year than any year Iverson played. And I would bet my house he ends up a better player overall

You also said a while back that Iverson sucked

Geargo Wallace
09-13-2011, 10:06 PM
For basketball. One of my trainers told me I need to be more of a student of the game, and start watching game film. So I watch a lot of players, mainly point guards, and a few wing players.

So i know a lot of players tendencies now, that I didn't before. It actually helps translate to my actual game. Especially in pick and roll situations.

I gotcha! And I was kidding quite a bit on that statement.

My only problem with this comparison that you made is that most PG's in the league possess similar qualities that kind of make this statement too general. The ideal PG is quick, is supposed to set his teammates up, usually possesses a good crossover, has a great handle on the ball, etc. I think there are more accurate comparisons out there than AI.

If you want to be a student of the game, check out instructional video's on the fundamentals of the game. I'm sure you can learn a lot more useful tips, for your level of play, from other sources than from Youtube videos of flashy NBA pros.
The high school/college game is a lot different than the NBA (not saying the NBA guys don't know how to do those textbook things, because they do). My brother and I used to dominate pick and rolls when we were young, but as we got older (grade 11 and up), it got harder to run simple pick and rolls with such ease. NBA players run pick and rolls all day long because they can.

Read books on the history of the game (I've read a bunch of good ones that I can recommend). It'll help you gain a greater appreciation for the game of basketball as a whole.

sixer04fan
09-13-2011, 10:27 PM
You mean Derrick Rose reminds you of a young Allen Iverson

albertc86
09-13-2011, 10:29 PM
Derrick Rose reminds me of a better version of Marbury. Their styles are more alike than Rose and Iverson's, imo.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 11:28 PM
You also said a while back that Iverson sucked

find that post dude. Don't put words in my mouth, thank you

Hustlenomics
09-13-2011, 11:34 PM
^ Trust me you said it in one of those 20+ pages of you and llemon and other Iverson haters bickering, I'm not putting words in your mouth you said he sucked and he was overrated . Im not going back a year worth of posts neither

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 11:38 PM
Ironic because you are also a notorious liar and slanter of the truth?

Or are you saying you don't know basketball well enough to know that Larry Brown is a notorious liar?

Show me where I lied. Back up your claims... is all I ask. here you go again pointing fingers

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 11:38 PM
^ Trust me you said it in one of those 20+ pages of you and llemon and other Iverson haters bickering, I'm not putting words in your mouth you said he sucked and he was overrated . Im not going back a year worth of posts neither

I never said he sucked, so please don't put words in my mouth dude. That honestly is pathetic you would even post that.

Overrated? Hell yes, by you, and many fans.

Sucks? Please. I have never said that in my life, and the fact that you post that I have is ridiculous.

Evolution23
09-13-2011, 11:41 PM
Iverson was the man back in the day.. Any one who discounts his ability to take a team full of bench players to the finals and single handidly beating the Lakers in game 1 of the finals is just plain foolish or simply hating.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 11:45 PM
I still think Rose may have been better this year than any year Iverson played. And I would bet my house he ends up a better player overall

Allen Iverson's stats as a rookie were similiar to Rose's last season. Let alone... CHECK ALLEN IVERSON IN 04. Check the stats. It's all in front of ur face

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Allen Iverson's stats as a rookie were similiar to Rose's last season. Let alone... CHECK ALLEN IVERSON IN 04. Check the stats. It's all in front of ur face

04'? He missed 30+ games. What year do you think AI stacked up to what Rose put forth this season? I will reply to that.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 11:51 PM
The complete inability of some of you measuring AI's roster in the weak *** east is amazing. Did he have any legit scorers? No. He didn't co-exist with them in the first half of his career. But there defense was ridiculous, and they were the exact compliments to AI's strenghts and weaknesses.

dreday
09-13-2011, 11:58 PM
There are some similarities between the two but I think the are a couple of major differences. One is that Iverson was more of scorer, this is dating back to high school, where rose is a pg who the bulls forced to be more of a scorer. Also because of that very reason many players had a very difficult time playing with AI because he really did not make anyone better. Where as guys love playing with rose who extremely unselfish.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 12:01 AM
There are some similarities between the two but I think the are a couple of major differences. One is that Iverson was more of scorer, this is dating back to high school, where rose is a pg who the bulls forced to be more of a scorer. Also because of that very reason many players had a very difficult time playing with AI because he really did not make anyone better. Where as guys love playing with rose who extremely unselfish.


agreed. I truly think AI did want to be a distributor many times, but his natural instincts took over, which forced tons of bad shots, and inefficiency for a superstar.

pd7631
09-14-2011, 12:04 AM
There are some similarities between the two but I think the are a couple of major differences. One is that Iverson was more of scorer, this is dating back to high school, where rose is a pg who the bulls forced to be more of a scorer. Also because of that very reason many players had a very difficult time playing with AI because he really did not make anyone better. Where as guys love playing with rose who extremely unselfish.


Are you implying that AI's teammates didn't love playing with him? Because I've never heard or read anything saying that; I've only seen the opposite. AI's teammates absolutely loved being around him. AI also made guys like Eric Snow and Aaron McKie a lot of money, because they were nobodies before playing with AI, and they were nobodies after playing with him. He elevated the value of many of the guys he played with, who unfortunately for AI, were guys that simply weren't good enough to overcome the teams with 2 or more star players.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 12:05 AM
The complete inability of some of you measuring AI's roster in the weak *** east is amazing. Did he have any legit scorers? No. He didn't co-exist with them in the first half of his career. But there defense was ridiculous, and they were the exact compliments to AI's strenghts and weaknesses.

That's not my gripe I know he had a decent supporting cast. Is it a championship calibre HELL NO. However the cast was decent.

As for complimenting A.I. I really can't 100% agree with that. No man is an island, a perfect compliment may have been to have some shooters in the mix (ala LeBron in Cleveland) and a legit post scorer. When I say legit by no means do I mean Shaq but maybe a Rasheed Wallace type at the PF (extremely volatile unit Larry Brown may have retired on spot :laugh: ) and say Rick Fox at the SF.

Something along those lines may have seen the 76ers be a more competitive team. Purely hypothetical, but IMO while we were great defensively on offense the opponents paid soooo much attention to A.I. that it made it MUCH MUCH tougher for him not to only be effective but efficient as well.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 12:07 AM
The Emperor's New Clothes , thats how Nba is run nowdays.

Thats the conclussion .

Hustlenomics
09-14-2011, 12:19 AM
I never said he sucked, so please don't put words in my mouth dude. That honestly is pathetic you would even post that.

Overrated? Hell yes, by you, and many fans.

Sucks? Please. I have never said that in my life, and the fact that you post that I have is ridiculous.

the fact that you're denying it s ridiculous, I'm not making it up just to do that, that's pointless. If you don't think he sucks then stop hating on him

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 12:25 AM
the fact that you're denying it s ridiculous, I'm not making it up just to do that, that's pointless. If you don't think he sucks then stop hating on him
the problem is That you AI fanboys dont realize that saying Iverson was a GOOD player but not a GREAT player , is not hating on the dude.

pd7631
09-14-2011, 12:29 AM
the problem is That you AI fanboys dont realize that saying Iverson was a GOOD player but not a GREAT player , is not hating on the dude.

I don't know any MVP's that weren't great players

I don't know any 11x All Stars that weren't great players

I don't know any 4x scoring champs that weren't great players


AI wasn't just a GOOD player, he was a GREAT player

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 12:33 AM
^because he shot too much?

because it was in the interest of the league to showcase a product and an mvp ( THAT HE NEVER DESERVED) would boost his publicity?
Because fans bought into teh publicity and voted him in the allstar?

no thanks.

pd7631
09-14-2011, 12:39 AM
^because he shot too much?

because it was in the interest of the league to showcase a product and an mvp ( THAT HE NEVER DESERVED) would boost his publicity?
Because fans bought into teh publicity and voted him in the allstar?

no thanks.


Your posts are absolutely priceless. Of course all of the accolades that AI earned were because of some sort of league wide conspiracy :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 12:42 AM
Your posts are absolutely priceless. Of course all of the accolades that AI earned were because of some sort of league wide conspiracy :rolleyes:

Crooner is the president of PSD's conspiracy theorists forum so of course that's what he'll say.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 12:46 AM
04'? He missed 30+ games. What year do you think AI stacked up to what Rose put forth this season? I will reply to that.

2004-2005 Allen Iverson

75 games played
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2.4 STLS
4 RPG

2010-2011 Derrick Rose

81 Games played
25 PPG
7.7 APG
4.1 RPG
1 SPG

Now please show how statistically Rose had a better season. If you even try to argue this, your simply, imcompetent cuz thats in as plain english as it gets.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 12:48 AM
AI's stats as a ROOKIE are even comparable

23.5 PPG
7.5 PPG
2.1 SPG
4.1 RPG

GTFOH with that Drose BS! Drose couldn't even hold AI's jock strap as a rookie.

Hustlenomics
09-14-2011, 01:44 AM
^ Watch out for any advanced statistic to try and bring down Iverson

the problem is That you AI fanboys dont realize that saying Iverson was a GOOD player but not a GREAT player , is not hating on the dude.

So was iverson a good player?

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 01:52 AM
2004-2005 Allen Iverson

75 games played
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2.4 STLS
4 RPG

2010-2011 Derrick Rose

81 Games played
25 PPG
7.7 APG
4.1 RPG
1 SPG

Now please show how statistically Rose had a better season. If you even try to argue this, your simply, imcompetent cuz thats in as plain english as it gets.

PPG are easily explained. Iverson took more shots on worse efficiency that season. Had a worse eFG% too, and a higher %ast rate.

It took Iverson 14 seasons to finally get a better efficiency than Rose has in his 3rd season. and Rose's average career efficiency is still better than Iversons.

Ovratd1up
09-14-2011, 02:30 AM
Your posts are absolutely priceless. Of course all of the accolades that AI earned were because of some sort of league wide conspiracy :rolleyes:

Conspiracy? Is that what you call marketing nowadays?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 02:46 AM
PPG are easily explained. Iverson took more shots on worse efficiency that season. Had a worse eFG% too, and a higher %ast rate.

It took Iverson 14 seasons to finally get a better efficiency than Rose has in his 3rd season. and Rose's average career efficiency is still better than Iversons.

Still higher. And rose shot 2% better then AI ill give u that. But see all yall now are arguing by the skin of your teeth. There's no ground drose is not better then AI no matter wt way u look @ it.

lilojmayo
09-14-2011, 05:18 AM
i miss Allen Iverson of the early 2000s

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Knicks21
09-14-2011, 07:33 AM
AI was a better scorer, Rose better defender.

MTar786
09-14-2011, 08:34 AM
LOL @ whoever thinks rose is better than AI. give me a break. Rose has gotten way too much hype on this site.. its sickening. the guy got completely shut down by lebron. rose didnt know what to even do.. it was that bad.. it made lebron look like the best defender ever haha. Rose needs to learn how to be a scorer.. sharpening up his passing game a little.. then we can start calling him a superstar.. till then he will always be known as te wost mvp of all time IMO. never the less.. it is still impressive how far he has come along.. and i wouldnt be surprised if eventually he turned out to be better than ai.. but not anywhere close right now.

TheRunKiller
09-14-2011, 09:43 AM
2004-2005 Allen Iverson

75 games played
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2.4 STLS
4 RPG

2010-2011 Derrick Rose

81 Games played
25 PPG
7.7 APG
4.1 RPG
1 SPG

Now please show how statistically Rose had a better season. If you even try to argue this, your simply, imcompetent cuz thats in as plain english as it gets.

Bulls 62-20
Sixers 43-39 :shrug:

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 09:56 AM
Bulls 62-20
Sixers 43-39 :shrug:

:speechless:

Great statistical argument JB has done a great job of rubbing off on you guys.

JordansBulls
09-14-2011, 10:04 AM
Rose at 22 > Iverson at 22

Who gives a crap about comparing by age? Why not compare by years in league. That is a better way. When you go to a university you aren't compared to your peers by your age, but rather what level you are on.

sammid21
09-14-2011, 10:35 AM
Inch for inch AI is better than Rose, but Rose does have the potential to be better than AI. I mean as of right now, Rose is a better leader and defender (i guess cuz of height/strength).

I would actually say Rose is a rich mans Marbury, what Marbury was supposed to be, he was great at the start of his career and sky was the limit for him, too bad it didnt work out. Rose has a better work ethic and attitude

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 11:12 AM
Bulls 62-20
Sixers 43-39 :shrug:

lol. So now it's about who had a better record?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 11:14 AM
Inch for inch AI is better than Rose, but Rose does have the potential to be better than AI. I mean as of right now, Rose is a better leader and defender (i guess cuz of height/strength).

I would actually say Rose is a rich mans Marbury, what Marbury was supposed to be, he was great at the start of his career and sky was the limit for him, too bad it didnt work out. Rose has a better work ethic and attitude

I can fux with that. Good post.

avon_barksdale
09-14-2011, 11:31 AM
some ppl really think drose is better than ai? this is bum juice

Geargo Wallace
09-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Inch for inch, Mugsy Bogues is the GOAT. These pound for pound arguments don't matter. All that matter is how well you play/produce when you're on the court.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 12:01 PM
Still higher. And rose shot 2% better then AI ill give u that. But see all yall now are arguing by the skin of your teeth. There's no ground drose is not better then AI no matter wt way u look @ it.

I can't show you how Rose is better than A.I. because you won't accept any argument, your mind is already made up. I just gave you a valid reason why Rose is better, but then you still say there's no ground to say Rose is better.

What about the fact that Rose is more efficient with a better FG% earlier in his career?

You think PPG is a valid measurement of how good a player is, your conclusions are based on faulty premises.

The simple fact is, Rose is a better player in his 3rd year than Iverson was in his 3rd. Whoever called Iverson a chucker earlier in this thread is pretty much right. His efficiency was terrible for a very long time.

In their 3rd years, Rose scored better, assisted better, had a higher PER, a higher Ortg, a higher win share, and higher ws/48.

Dankster
09-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's baffling how anyone can compare these 2 guys. First off, Rose is still so young and developing that no one can really tell what his ceiling will be. I will say at this point in his career, he's no AI.

First off, were any of you old enough to see Allen play from say 1998-2002? Furthermore, did any of you see how crappy his roster was?? Seriously, Aaron Mckie was the 2nd biggest scoring threat on that team. Now Theo Ratliff was a good anchor in the paint, excellent shot blocker, but that teams offense was quite possibly the most anemic out of any team to ever make it to the finals. That team on the offensive end was garbage.

Which brings me to the point of AI's so called "inefficiency." If you're the opposing team and you see Eric snow, Aaron Mckie, Theo Ratliff and the rest of the offensively challenged players on the other side of the court, who do you think is going to get the emphasis of the defenses attention?? Now Rose has a much better and more complete team and I remember quite vividly this guy chucking up everything in sight during the playoffs this year..he had way too many games where he was chucking up 25+ shots a game, so let's not make Rose out to be Mr. Efficient.

And as for the Isiah Thomas comparisons, that's laughable at best. I wonder how many of you actually saw Zeke play especially in the mid 80's. Youtube doesn't always paint a complete picture on a player. Isiah is a PURE PG, tough as nails defender and had a larger offensive repertoire than Rose. Rose is taller and more athletic, but I can't possibly think of anything else that makes him superior to Zeke.

I absolutely think Rose is great and could possibly surpass both guys at some point if he really learns how to orchestrate the offense for his team. But it's beyond premature to put this guy in the same category as Allen Iverson and Isiah Thomas at this point..Just utterly ridiculous...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 12:53 PM
I can't show you how Rose is better than A.I. because you won't accept any argument, your mind is already made up. I just gave you a valid reason why Rose is better, but then you still say there's no ground to say Rose is better.

What about the fact that Rose is more efficient with a better FG% earlier in his career?

You think PPG is a valid measurement of how good a player is, your conclusions are based on faulty premises.

The simple fact is, Rose is a better player in his 3rd year than Iverson was in his 3rd. Whoever called Iverson a chucker earlier in this thread is pretty much right. His efficiency was terrible for a very long time.

In their 3rd years, Rose scored better, assisted better, had a higher PER, a higher Ortg, a higher win share, and higher ws/48.



PPG is just the tip of the iceberg, but the rest of his stats are also higher is what makes AI a better player.

Ok... 2% FG, More efficient... ok. Yall can have that.

I'll take AI, MORE PPG, Just as many RPG, (being 3 inches shorter, and 25 pounds lighter) and i'll take more APG and more SPG as well. I'm not arguing that his eff was high... My argument is that he's better then Rose. and I proved that with the simple numbers, PPG, APG, SPG, RPG. You didn't watch Iverson play, is what this comes down to.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 01:10 PM
You don't prove anything by using basic stats. Monta Ellis scores more PPG than Dirk Nowitzki or Blake Griffin, do you think Monta is a better player?

Michael Beasley scores more PPG than Paul Pierce or Chris Bosh, do you think he's a better player?

The difference between 3rd year Iverson and 3rd year Rose is not 2 FG%. It's actually 55% TS% to 50% TS%. That's a big difference, one player there is above average and another is below average. That's like comparing a B on a science test to a D. Pretty big difference, right?

Their eFg% is not similar, 48% to 44%. Again, one player is above average and the other is below average. Do you want the B or the D grade on your science test?

Iverson did NOT get more assists in his 3rd year than Rose. Iverson got 4.6, Rose got 7.6

SPG, doesn't matter. Iverson was good at stealing, Rose is good at blocking. RPG, also doesn't matter. Rose is on the best rebounding team in the NBA, he doesn't need to rebound.

If you're going to argue your point effectively you need to find something other than PPG to rest your case on. Iverson took more shots in games than Rose does and he made them less often, that's not a mark of a better player. Hell, I could average 30 PPG if you gave me 60 shots to do it. Would you think I was a good player if I went 15/60 on my field goals and had 30 points per game?

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 01:24 PM
You don't prove anything by using basic stats. Monta Ellis scores more PPG than Dirk Nowitzki or Blake Griffin, do you think Monta is a better player?

Michael Beasley scores more PPG than Paul Pierce or Chris Bosh, do you think he's a better player?

The difference between 3rd year Iverson and 3rd year Rose is not 2 FG%. It's actually 55% TS% to 50% TS%. That's a big difference, one player there is above average and another is below average. That's like comparing a B on a science test to a D. Pretty big difference, right?

Their eFg% is not similar, 48% to 44%. Again, one player is above average and the other is below average. Do you want the B or the D grade on your science test?

Iverson did NOT get more assists in his 3rd year than Rose. Iverson got 4.6, Rose got 7.6

SPG, doesn't matter. Iverson was good at stealing, Rose is good at blocking. RPG, also doesn't matter. Rose is on the best rebounding team in the NBA, he doesn't need to rebound.

If you're going to argue your point effectively you need to find something other than PPG to rest your case on. Iverson took more shots in games than Rose does and he made them less often, that's not a mark of a better player. Hell, I could average 30 PPG if you gave me 60 shots to do it. Would you think I was a good player if I went 15/60 on my field goals and had 30 points per game?
its not worth losing your time, theyve been brainwashed.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 01:37 PM
yeah, I think people are just confusing flashiness and being iconic with being the better player. Iverson was a very iconic, ground breaking, pioneering player in this league. I won't argue that.

But thats a completely different thing from making a statistical argument that Iverson is better than Rose. You could find a season where Iverson was better than Rose, but you would have to go deep into his career to do so. Since Rose has only played three seasons so far, it won't be fair to compare Iversons peak season to Rose's 3rd year...because we don't know yet what Rose's ceiling is.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Who gives a crap about comparing by age?
GM's and Statisticians. With good reason.


Why not compare by years in league.
Both matter, age matters more.


That is a better way.
Based on what?


When you go to a university you aren't compared to your peers by your age, but rather what level you are on.

Me being younger than my peers says Im a phenom.

Again both matter, put it this way a 2nd year 25 year old SHOULD be LEAPS better than a 4 year vet whos only 22. GM's measure players by age and mileage.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 02:05 PM
But thats a completely different thing from making a statistical argument that Iverson is better than Rose. You could find a season where Iverson was better than Rose, but you would have to go deep into his career to do so. Since Rose has only played three seasons so far, it won't be fair to compare Iversons peak season to Rose's 3rd year...because we don't know yet what Rose's ceiling is.
lol at the main argument against you being,

At the end of the day what this all comes down to, is you never saw AI play. :rolleyes:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 06:33 PM
yeah, I think people are just confusing flashiness and being iconic with being the better player. Iverson was a very iconic, ground breaking, pioneering player in this league. I won't argue that.

But thats a completely different thing from making a statistical argument that Iverson is better than Rose. You could find a season where Iverson was better than Rose, but you would have to go deep into his career to do so. Since Rose has only played three seasons so far, it won't be fair to compare Iversons peak season to Rose's 3rd year...because we don't know yet what Rose's ceiling is.

Ok so then STFU... Talk to me when Rose retires, cuz as of right now, you have nothing to say.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 06:40 PM
You don't prove anything by using basic stats. Monta Ellis scores more PPG than Dirk Nowitzki or Blake Griffin, do you think Monta is a better player?

Michael Beasley scores more PPG than Paul Pierce or Chris Bosh, do you think he's a better player?

The difference between 3rd year Iverson and 3rd year Rose is not 2 FG%. It's actually 55% TS% to 50% TS%. That's a big difference, one player there is above average and another is below average. That's like comparing a B on a science test to a D. Pretty big difference, right?

Their eFg% is not similar, 48% to 44%. Again, one player is above average and the other is below average. Do you want the B or the D grade on your science test?

Iverson did NOT get more assists in his 3rd year than Rose. Iverson got 4.6, Rose got 7.6

SPG, doesn't matter. Iverson was good at stealing, Rose is good at blocking. RPG, also doesn't matter. Rose is on the best rebounding team in the NBA, he doesn't need to rebound.

If you're going to argue your point effectively you need to find something other than PPG to rest your case on. Iverson took more shots in games than Rose does and he made them less often, that's not a mark of a better player. Hell, I could average 30 PPG if you gave me 60 shots to do it. Would you think I was a good player if I went 15/60 on my field goals and had 30 points per game?

Ok so stats don't matter?

Well then blame the rest of the Chicago Bull's and everyone else for Rose not being as good as AI. RPG don't matter because he's on the best rebounding team, he doesn't need to score cuz everyone else does, he doesn't need to steal the ball because he's this and that..

None of Rose's stats are higher and yet he's better?? That's ridicuolous. please show me where AI shot 15/60 Thats why I'm sayin how can Rose be better then AI, Up until now, he's done NOTHING that Allen Iverson hasn't already done better. Bring facts, not fallacies.

All your hate aside.

Tell me who you would choose:

Player A:
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2 SPG
4 RPG
42 FG%

Player B:
25 PPG
7.7 APG
1 SPG
4 RPG
44 FG%

THANK U!!!!

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 06:42 PM
its not worth losing your time, theyve been brainwashed.


Yeah, were the ones who are brainwashed. Coming from the person who ironically brings up arguments that the MEDIA brings up.

Tattoos, Braids, "wife-beater" (wehrever the hell you got that from), practice.

ramsizzle
09-14-2011, 06:55 PM
Yeah, were the ones who are brainwashed. Coming from the person who ironically brings up arguments that the MEDIA brings up.

Tattoos, Braids, "wife-beater" (wehrever the hell you got that from), practice.

he showed you VERY specifically why Rose was better and this is your rebuttal. You are wrong, your argument is wrong, the way you brought forth your argument was wrong, and everything you have stated on the last page has been wrong. You love AI as do a bunch of other people, but you comparing his best season to rose's third is a joke. Its the only season worth comparing because Rose has flat out outplayed him in the first three years of their career.

Every single advanced statistic is dominated by rose.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 07:15 PM
Ok so then STFU... Talk to me when Rose retires, cuz as of right now, you have nothing to say.


Ok so stats don't matter?

Well then blame the rest of the Chicago Bull's and everyone else for Rose not being as good as AI. RPG don't matter because he's on the best rebounding team, he doesn't need to score cuz everyone else does, he doesn't need to steal the ball because he's this and that..

None of Rose's stats are higher and yet he's better?? That's ridicuolous. please show me where AI shot 15/60 Thats why I'm sayin how can Rose be better then AI, Up until now, he's done NOTHING that Allen Iverson hasn't already done better. Bring facts, not fallacies.

All your hate aside.

Tell me who you would choose:

Player A:
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2 SPG
4 RPG
42 FG%

Player B:
25 PPG
7.7 APG
1 SPG
4 RPG
44 FG%

THANK U!!!!

:facepalm:

You've shown a complete inability to be rational or understand simple facts and statements. Swash, Steb0, Beasted, Chronz...I'll talk to you and people like you. I can't talk to people like this guy, it's like talking to a wall. Sorry. Too many people like this on the forum who can't comprehend simple arguments or interpret statistics.

Rocketsfan85
09-14-2011, 07:19 PM
A.I would kill D.Rose

TheRunKiller
09-14-2011, 07:36 PM
he showed you VERY specifically why Rose was better and this is your rebuttal. You are wrong, your argument is wrong, the way you brought forth your argument was wrong, and everything you have stated on the last page has been wrong. You love AI as do a bunch of other people, but you comparing his best season to rose's third is a joke. Its the only season worth comparing because Rose has flat out outplayed him in the first three years of their career.

Every single advanced statistic is dominated by rose.

:burn:

TheRunKiller
09-14-2011, 07:38 PM
A.I would kill D.Rose

I'm not sure a prime allen iverson would kill D. Rose right now.

MJ-BULLS
09-14-2011, 07:39 PM
AI and DRose are different players.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 07:40 PM
2004-2005 wasn't even AI's best season. I don't know why he chose that specific year to compare.

His PER was highest in 2005-2006. His efficiency was best in 2007-2008.

epic fail. Any time a guy brings up basic stats in an attempt to prove anything, it's epic fail.

There's probably a good way to argue how or why AI is a better player than Rose, but this AiMelo guy doesn't have the knowledge to do it even if he wanted to. He argues from ignorance.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 07:54 PM
2004-2005 wasn't even AI's best season. I don't know why he chose that specific year to compare.

His PER was highest in 2005-2006. His efficiency was best in 2007-2008.

epic fail. Any time a guy brings up basic stats in an attempt to prove anything, it's epic fail.

There's probably a good way to argue how or why AI is a better player than Rose, but this AiMelo guy doesn't have the knowledge to do it even if he wanted to. He argues from ignorance.

EXACTLY!! 04-05 wasn't AI's best statistical year! and DRose numbers still don't compare! How am I ignorant? I've showed you the numbers...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 07:56 PM
he showed you VERY specifically why Rose was better and this is your rebuttal. You are wrong, your argument is wrong, the way you brought forth your argument was wrong, and everything you have stated on the last page has been wrong. You love AI as do a bunch of other people, but you comparing his best season to rose's third is a joke. Its the only season worth comparing because Rose has flat out outplayed him in the first three years of their career.

Every single advanced statistic is dominated by rose.

Exactly there is no comparrison! So don't compare 'em. I didn't bring up the argument, I just called the people out who did.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 07:58 PM
:facepalm:

You've shown a complete inability to be rational or understand simple facts and statements. Swash, Steb0, Beasted, Chronz...I'll talk to you and people like you. I can't talk to people like this guy, it's like talking to a wall. Sorry. Too many people like this on the forum who can't comprehend simple arguments or interpret statistics.

How have I not been rational? I've answered every single thing you showed me, and everything everyone else did as well. What simple argument am I not comprehending? Clearly your the one who cannot comprehend simple stats, I brought up simple stats, I don't need to do math problems to figure out who's the better player because the numbers are right in front of me. I even asked you choose Player A or Player B and you still haven't because you know damn well who you would choose.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 07:59 PM
Guys relax, its AI vs Rose not Kobe vs MJ, no need to get so amped

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Guys relax, its AI vs Rose not Kobe vs MJ, no need to get so amped

Hahah, yea that would get pretty ugly too.

Chris Paul Vs DWill 2 years ago lol

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 08:05 PM
This is how you're ignorant: You're showing me basic stats, I've explained to you how those stats are misleading. If you can't understand my explanation or if you purposely ignore it, It's not my fault, I can't do anything about it.

Furthermore, if you want to compare '05-'06 Iverson or '07-'08 Iverson to Derrick Rose in his 3rd year, it's an unfair comparison. Do you see why it is unfair? You're cherry picking 2 seasons from a guy who played 20 seasons and comparing it to a guy who's only played 3.

The only fair way to compare is to look no further past AI's 3rd season. If we compare those 3rd seasons, Rose has the statistical edge by a pretty wide margin.

If you want to compare AI's best seasons against Rose's best, it's an unfair comparison, but you can find times where AI was more productive, and more efficient.

If you average all those 20 seasons together and average all of Rose's 3 season together, Rose comes out with the better efficiency, the better eFG%, the better TRB%, the better AST%, the better BLK%, the better ORTG and DRTG, the better WS/48

AI will have the better average PER, the better average STL%, the higher average USG%, the lower TOV% and that's it.

I can't make my post any clearer or more informative than this.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 08:08 PM
2004-2005 Allen Iverson

75 games played
30.7 PPG
7.9 APG
2.4 STLS
4 RPG

2010-2011 Derrick Rose

81 Games played
25 PPG
7.7 APG
4.1 RPG
1 SPG

Now please show how statistically Rose had a better season. If you even try to argue this, your simply, imcompetent cuz thats in as plain english as it gets.


haha, thanks for the compliment there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=2005&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

The Sixers played at around 3-4 more possessions a game in the comparison, and AI played nearly 43 mpg. Their per 36 numbers look much closer, with the better fg%, 3fg%, apg, rpg going to Rose.

Now, we dig into their scoring efficiency and what they offered their teams.

Rose has a higher PER, TS%, eFG%, Reb Rate, Asst Rate, and kills Iverson's pedestrian offensive rating, while totaling more win shares total, and per/48.

In the playoffs, they are a bit more equal, however AI never faced a defender like LeBron late in any series he played in, someone who was big enough and fast enough to take away angles.

Statistically, AI has never had a season better than Rose just did. I am not going to say that Rose is the outright better player, too early for that. But statistically, Rose just had a better season than Iverson ever did.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 08:16 PM
Hawkeye, what about '05-'06? That season was better than the season Rose just had, no? He was more productive in the regular season, any way.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 08:22 PM
Hawkeye, what about '05-'06? That season was better than the season Rose just had, no? He was more productive in the regular season, any way.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=2006&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Still Rose. Iverson's PER was higher due to the fact that he had a huge shot creation rate (still the fundamental gripe in PER, giving chuckers extra points). Everything else, Rose yet again. And by that point, Iverson was not a very good defender, and couldn't lead his team to more than 38 wins in the weak *** east.

Look, AI fans, we are not saying he wasn't a great player. I have him in my top 50 all time. But he just wasn't the superstar scoring machine you think he was. He was the greatest chucker of all time.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 08:35 PM
but he wasn't chucking much in that season, 54% TS% isn't chucking. It's above average efficiency for a guard....or around average. And how can you tell what his shot creation rate was, do you mean his USG?

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 08:39 PM
but he wasn't chucking much in that season, 54% TS% isn't chucking. It's above average efficiency for a guard....or around average. And how can you tell what his shot creation rate was, do you mean his USG?

his TS% went above average because he got to the line at a huge rate, which is going to give you a better scoring efficiency (as it should). He also had, for him, a GREAT year from the field, at over 44%

Did you watch the Sixers that year? They were a non-playoff team that Iverson decided he needed to shoot to victory, shooting over 25 attempts a night. He had a much higher usage than Rose, a PG, and was involved in everything for the Sixers. You also need to look at his level of defense that year. He was using so much energy offensively, that he decided to call in sick on the other end, which shows by Philly's terrible defense that year.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 08:50 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=2006&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Still Rose. Iverson's PER was higher due to the fact that he had a huge shot creation rate (still the fundamental gripe in PER, giving chuckers extra points). Everything else, Rose yet again. And by that point, Iverson was not a very good defender, and couldn't lead his team to more than 38 wins in the weak *** east.

Look, AI fans, we are not saying he wasn't a great player. I have him in my top 50 all time. But he just wasn't the superstar scoring machine you think he was. He was the greatest chucker of all time.

Time for me to chime in? :)

Why was Rose's WS and WS/48 better than that of A.I.'s? ;)

Also his PER wasn't higher just because of his shot creation but also because of the fact that his turnover rate was also lower than Rose's and he got to the line at an amazing clip.

As for his overall efficiency minutes played has a negative correlation with a player's efficiency. Playing 43 minutes a game doesn't bode well for a player doing well in the efficiency department.

For the most part Hawkeye15 I don't have a problem with anything you say about A.I. but I don't think he's overrated, maybe by most who follow him (the same can be said for every player and his fan base) but in general I don't think so.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 08:54 PM
his TS% went above average because he got to the line at a huge rate, which is going to give you a better scoring efficiency (as it should). He also had, for him, a GREAT year from the field, at over 44%

Did you watch the Sixers that year? They were a non-playoff team that Iverson decided he needed to shoot to victory, shooting over 25 attempts a night. He had a much higher usage than Rose, a PG, and was involved in everything for the Sixers. You also need to look at his level of defense that year. He was using so much energy offensively, that he decided to call in sick on the other end, which shows by Philly's terrible defense that year.

C'mon Hawk lets not blame Iverson for Philly's D. How much impact is he going to have on that end anyways?

If you say he should have led by example on that end as the team's best player and the one with the longest tenor and of course on court leader, I 100% agree (though he was still active in the lanes) but I won't put the blame of him not playing good man D as to why our team D was so bad.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 09:01 PM
Time for me to chime in? :)

Why was Rose's WS and WS/48 better than that of A.I.'s? ;)

Also his PER wasn't higher just because of his shot creation but also because of the fact that his turnover rate was also lower than Rose's and he got to the line at an amazing clip.

As for his overall efficiency minutes played has a negative correlation with a player's efficiency. Playing 43 minutes a game doesn't bode well for a player doing well in the efficiency department.

For the most part Hawkeye15 I don't have a problem with anything you say about A.I. but I don't think he's overrated, maybe by most who follow him (the same can be said for every player and his fan base) but in general I don't think so.

Rose's offensive win shares and Off Rtg were right with him, even in an efficient AI season. I am with you on Def win shares here.

His PER was indeed higher, but PER doesn't have the overall lift like TS% when adding FT's.

I do think that his minutes were a HUGE part of the issue. Any player having to play that many minutes night in and night out will suffer. But that is the minutes he played, and the minutes he was given, therefore our measurement.

I think he is overrated by the general fan, and those who don't have a quantifiable understanding of statistics. I don't think YOU overrate him. But I do think many have fallen in love with his per game numbers, and flashy crossovers, and lightning quicks, and their idolization of AI now clouds their opinion.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 09:03 PM
C'mon Hawk lets not blame Iverson for Philly's D. How much impact is he going to have on that end anyways?

If you say he should have led by example on that end as the team's best player and the one with the longest tenor and of course on court leader, I 100% agree (though he was still active in the lanes) but I won't put the blame of him not playing good man D as to why our team D was so bad.

I honestly thought about editing the last portion, but got lazy. Philly's roster went thru an overhaul around that time, and didn't have the defenders/coach to remain a top defensive unit. But the point stands. AI was asked to carry such a burden offensively, that he didn't even try on defense that year.

He was always active in the lanes. Someone with his athletic ability was engrained with living in the lanes from 8 years old on.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 09:17 PM
Rose's offensive win shares and Off Rtg were right with him, even in an efficient AI season. I am with you on Def win shares here.

His PER was indeed higher, but PER doesn't have the overall lift like TS% when adding FT's.

I do think that his minutes were a HUGE part of the issue. Any player having to play that many minutes night in and night out will suffer. But that is the minutes he played, and the minutes he was given, therefore our measurement.

I think he is overrated by the general fan, and those who don't have a quantifiable understanding of statistics. I don't think YOU overrate him. But I do think many have fallen in love with his per game numbers, and flashy crossovers, and lightning quicks, and their idolization of AI now clouds their opinion.

I've said already the reasons as to why he's my favourite player, and I think its the same for a few others as well. His passion and intensity is matched by a select few of his generation (KG and Kobe only IMO) and the way in which he played the game though it wasn't very smart with all his bad shot selection he showed your each and every time down the floor that he'll be willing to go to war laying (some may say foolishly) his body on the line. For the most part my opinion of him is not clouded but I don't like it when people tend to say things about him based on his rep and perceived persona.

Hustlenomics
09-14-2011, 09:29 PM
you have to be sniffing something strong to think 22 year old Rose is a better player than Iverson ever was

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 09:41 PM
you have to be sniffing something strong to think 22 year old Rose is a better player than Iverson ever was

you will have to forgive me for not taking your player evaluations seriously.

I am still waiting for you to show me that said Iverson sucked. Good luck.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2011, 09:43 PM
I've said already the reasons as to why he's my favourite player, and I think its the same for a few others as well. His passion and intensity is matched by a select few of his generation (KG and Kobe only IMO) and the way in which he played the game though it wasn't very smart with all his bad shot selection he showed your each and every time down the floor that he'll be willing to go to war laying (some may say foolishly) his body on the line. For the most part my opinion of him is not clouded but I don't like it when people tend to say things about him based on his rep and perceived persona.

trust me, I had absolutely ZERO respect for him until I watched him play courtside in around 2002. He was my size, only skinnier. The dude attacked the rim, got knocked on his ***, and the next play was right back in the lane. I immediately changed my opinion on him as a player. Not so much his efficiency per say, but his tenacity and toughness.

albertc86
09-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Rose is a more complete version of Marbury. That would've been a better comparison.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 09:58 PM
you have to be sniffing something strong to think 22 year old Rose is a better player than Iverson ever was

So prove that he isn't by putting forth a good argument. Otherwise, shhh. The adults are talking right now.

Hustlenomics
09-14-2011, 10:07 PM
so if Rose retired today he would be in the hall of fame?

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 10:19 PM
so if Rose retired today he would be in the hall of fame?

Every single MVP winner is in the Hall. I guess it's a matter of circumstance. If Rose retires because he suffered a career/life threatening injury on the court then I can see him one day possibly making the hall. If he retires because he just doesn't have the love for the game anymore and wants to move elsewhere in life then no.

Neither is going to happen but I don't think it would be impossible if he makes the Hall. Hell after 3 seasons Maurice Stokes made the hall after having to retire due to injury/sickness so I don't think it's far fetched to think that Rose can especially after winning the MVP. The circumstances however will decide on that IMO.

RZZZA
09-14-2011, 10:23 PM
so if Rose retired today he would be in the hall of fame?

Let's think about this logically. Put your question into a conditional statement format.

If Player A is in the hall of fame, then he is better than Player B who isn't in the hall of fame.

This is not a sound argument. We can think of many examples where B > A.

BIG worm
09-14-2011, 10:29 PM
Lol AI took tyrone hill, mutombo, eric snow, aaron mckie, and matt geiger to the Finals. can't get out of the ECF with the team he's got? GTFOH.

Lol @ Rose being better then AI.

Take into consideration Rose is 3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier. Y'all are ridiculous.

Really? Who did the 76ers beat to get in to the finals? The east was incredibly weak back then!

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 10:30 PM
Really? Who did the 76ers beat to get in to the finals? The east was incredibly weak back then!

Who did Rick Barry face on his way to the finals? The West was incredibly weak back then.

Crackadalic
09-14-2011, 10:47 PM
Ive watch D-rose play since his senior year in HS. Every time i see him play he reminds me more and more of that Marbury/Francis type mold of that attacking pg that can also set up there teammates. I do believe D-rose has far and above surpass them as players.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 11:42 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9101


Guys the stats are remarkably close, lets not act like one is CLEARLY superior based on the #'s at a glance.





As for his overall efficiency minutes played has a negative correlation with a player's efficiency. Playing 43 minutes a game doesn't bode well for a player doing well in the efficiency department.


Can you substantiate this claim? I agree for AI his endurance should be a strength but you have no backing for this stance.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 11:51 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9101


Guys the stats are remarkably close, lets not act like one is CLEARLY superior based on the #'s at a glance.




Can you substantiate this claim? I agree for AI his endurance should be a strength but you have no backing for this stance.

We spoke about this before when you told me about the Millsap Quandary.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14919591&postcount=350

You gave me that post speaking on it. I told you I'll find you where I read it but I haven't but I'll continue looking.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Who did Rick Barry face on his way to the finals? The West was incredibly weak back then.

he WON the finals.

but answering to your question
fred brown, spencer haywood and slick watts ( champions soon after)
bob love, jerry sloan, nate thurmond, chet walker.
then in the finals:
chenier, hayes, truck robinson and Wes unseld. ( champions soon after).


Not bad uh?

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:33 AM
he WON the finals.

but answering to your question
fred brown, spencer haywood and slick watts ( champions soon after)
bob love, jerry sloan, nate thurmond, chet walker.
then in the finals:
chenier, hayes, truck robinson and Wes unseld. ( champions soon after).


Not bad uh?

and what was the combined winning % of the opponents in which he faced prior to the finals?

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 12:37 AM
and what was the combined winning % of the opponents in which he faced prior to the finals?

oh you pulling a jordan bulls?

tell me what do you think holds more merit.

beating 10 out of 20 mike tysons?

or beat 18 ( 5 mike tysons 3 very good pro boxers and 10 amateur boxes) out of 30

llemon
09-15-2011, 12:41 AM
he WON the finals.

but answering to your question
fred brown, spencer haywood and slick watts ( champions soon after)
bob love, jerry sloan, nate thurmond, chet walker.
then in the finals:
chenier, hayes, truck robinson and Wes unseld. ( champions soon after).


Not bad uh?

Watts never won a Title, Haywood won his ring as a bit player for the Lakers in '80, and Truck was a rookie player playing very little in '74-'75, and never won a Title.

Bulls were a tough team.

Swashcuff
09-15-2011, 12:43 AM
oh you pulling a jordan bulls?

tell me what do you think holds more merit.

beating 10 out of 20 mike tysons?

or beat 18 ( 5 mike tysons 3 very good pro boxers and 10 amateur boxes) out of 30

winning % Crooner, I'm a Cricketer not a Boxer.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 01:01 AM
winning % Crooner, I'm a Cricketer not a Boxer.

i see you dont get the rethotic picture.

Hellcrooner
09-15-2011, 01:03 AM
Watts never won a Title, Haywood won his ring as a bit player for the Lakers in '80, and Truck was a rookie player playing very little in '74-'75, and never won a Title.

Bulls were a tough team.

i meant the teams obviously, just signaled the best players each team had.

and yep the bulls were the thougher ones, because the DEPTH of the team was very very good.

llemon
09-15-2011, 01:06 AM
i meant the teams obviously, just signaled the best players each team had.

and yep the bulls were the thougher ones, because the DEPTH of the team was very very good.

And the Bulls played defense.

NetsPaint
09-15-2011, 02:19 AM
Anybody got some sort of stats with how long Iverson and Rose took to TAKE shots? FG% doesn't show that.

AI
09-15-2011, 01:41 PM
I miss AI :(