PDA

View Full Version : What retired NBA player would do the most damage in today's league if in their prime?



beasted86
09-12-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm sure the obvious answer might be Jordan for some, but with how weak the Center position is, I'm more inclined to go prime Shaq or Kareem. On the other hand, Magic could probably average a triple double and then some. What do you guys think?

GodsSon
09-12-2011, 11:22 PM
The Dream

llemon
09-12-2011, 11:39 PM
Can we dig up Wilt?

bovice163
09-12-2011, 11:42 PM
MJ is a given, but aside from that I'll say The Dream, Shaq, and Kareem.

llemon
09-12-2011, 11:44 PM
MJ is a given, but aside from that I'll say The Dream, Shaq, and Kareem.

Hell, how about a healthy Walton?

Ebbs
09-12-2011, 11:46 PM
I want to say a center.

Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt and Kareem. Jordans numbers wouldn't be any better than they were.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-13-2011, 12:09 AM
Shaq would have dominated in any era.

I wouldn't even give Howard a chance against him.

asandhu23
09-13-2011, 12:18 AM
Can we dig up Wilt?

Dude was cremated. we need a reverse ashes into human machine.

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 12:31 AM
Shaq Diesel.

six
09-13-2011, 12:32 AM
Obviously Jordan. Then you have Kareem, Magic, Muhammad Ali....

Gators123
09-13-2011, 12:35 AM
Shaq would absolutely dominate.

heyman321
09-13-2011, 12:39 AM
Prime Shaq.

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 12:50 AM
Lew Alcindor and Shaq.

LakersMaster24
09-13-2011, 12:51 AM
Obviously Jordan. Then you have Kareem, Magic, Muhammad Ali....

The thread clearly says NBA players...last time I checked Cassius Clay was a boxer.

Lakersfan2483
09-13-2011, 12:56 AM
Hakeem, Kareem, Magic and Bird.

Silent
09-13-2011, 12:56 AM
jordan would average 45 pts dream would average 40 pts

mightymouse407
09-13-2011, 01:00 AM
Reggie Miller

Jahari Kavi
09-13-2011, 01:01 AM
any great center.......I actually think any perimeter player would be less dominant...........

Cal827
09-13-2011, 01:05 AM
Kareem. He was already great and knowing that he would basically draw a foul each time he got the ball in a game today and that he was a decent shooter from the line (around 72% I believe), and that really the only competition he would have today would be Dwight, he would lead the league in a ton of stats for multiple seasons.

Larry Bird is another one (assuming he avoids injury). He was a very good shooter that would drive. He would probably get more free throws than 5 per game. Also add that he would likely fill the stat sheets today with trip-doubles out if he were around today, Lebron would be the Poor man's version of him :D

Pfeifer
09-13-2011, 01:27 AM
I would go mr. Johnson, he would dominate. I would actually think Jordan kind of regresses just because there are alot of good 2 and 3 spots in today's game. Shaq is a given there are no centers in today's game. Imagine prime Shaq on bargniani, and I'm a raps fan.

Antipod
09-13-2011, 01:32 AM
I would go mr. Johnson, he would dominate. I would actually think Jordan kind of regresses just because there are alot of good 2 and 3 spots in today's game. Shaq is a given there are no centers in today's game. Imagine prime Shaq on bargniani, and I'm a raps fan.


Nasty ! :speechless:

To stay on topic - Magic J.

Storch
09-13-2011, 02:19 AM
Shaq, there is still no solution for the diesel in his prime.

asandhu23
09-13-2011, 02:28 AM
Nate Thurmond. Dude could do everything. Defensive monster.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 08:05 AM
any great center.......I actually think any perimeter player would be less dominant...........

This.

Obviously the great 1,2,3,4 that have retired in the last 15 years would generally be fine. But Hal Greer, Bob Cousy, Jerry Lucas and that generation(s)? NFW. Well, Oscar might be an exception.

But Centers you can go back to at least Wilt (if you can get him to play within a team concept that is), Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Jabbar, etc.

I won't list Bill Russell because he'd have been a defensive/rebounding 4 - part time 5 today, and he wouldn't score. Something like Rodman.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 08:08 AM
Nate Thurmond. Dude could do everything. Defensive monster.

Not much of a shooting touch, even by standards of his day - in fact awful. Think Mourning, but not close to as good.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 08:09 AM
Shaq, there is still no solution for the diesel in his prime.

Except the foul line in a close game late - a big problem.

Hakeem seemed to have no trouble w/ Shaq until he got too old

Also if his team is up tempo/fast break he'll need an O2 mask every 3rd trip down the floor - a significant limitation.

ShakeN'Bake
09-13-2011, 08:17 AM
The thread clearly says NBA players...last time I checked Cassius Clay was a boxer.

Clay would clearly do the most damage to any nba player...calm down the guy was being sarcastic.

NYKalltheway
09-13-2011, 08:28 AM
Hakeem
Nique
Kemp
Barkley
Drexler
Isiah Thomas
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Baylor
Gervin
Worthy


most of these guys would do much more damage than most superstars in the NBA today, only Lebron could do more damage imo (regular season though), there are more but I'm not bored enough to compile a full list

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 10:29 AM
MJ, Kareem, Shaq statistically speaking.

todu82
09-13-2011, 11:26 AM
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

Geargo Wallace
09-13-2011, 11:45 AM
Stephon Marbury.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-13-2011, 11:50 AM
Jordan
Hakeem
Iverson

LongIslandIcedZ
09-13-2011, 12:01 PM
Dude was cremated. we need a reverse ashes into human machine.

Checking amazon now...

Ebbs
09-13-2011, 12:25 PM
jordan would average 45 pts dream would average 40 pts

I don't believe that. . .

Da Knicks
09-13-2011, 12:26 PM
the dream

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 12:31 PM
enlgish, gervin, dantley, wilkes, richmond, mullins, ; blackman, Aguirre, Drexler, Wilkins, King and so on.

Sg and Sf who were great when MORE DEFENSE was allowed would score like crazy nowdays whith the current rules on handchecking.

Pfeifer
09-13-2011, 12:35 PM
Man I forgot Mitch Richmond existed. Barkley would be nasty in today's game. There would be nobody to match him.

Dolfan305
09-13-2011, 12:52 PM
Shaq, Hakeem, kareem etc. I honestly think that they would dominate more than a player like Jordan. The NBA today is stacked with perimeter players, but those centers would absolutely eat these current big men alive.

sammid21
09-13-2011, 12:52 PM
smh at the people who think Jordan wouldnt dominate because there are people who can guard him in todays game. Defense was tough and there was more talent (defensive wise) when Jordan played and yet no one couldve stopped him. I doubt anyone could stop him in todays game.

Also Shaq, Hakeem. Wilkins would mirror what LBJ is doing except for the passing ability and the oucheyness, jk

Dolfan305
09-13-2011, 12:56 PM
smh at the people who think Jordan wouldnt dominate because there are people who can guard him in todays game. Defense was tough and there was more talent (defensive wise) when Jordan played and yet no one couldve stopped him. I doubt anyone could stop him in todays game.

Also Shaq, Hakeem. Wilkins would mirror what LBJ is doing except for the passing ability and the oucheyness, jk

i'm not saying he wouldn't dominate, I'm just saying guys like Hakeem and shaq would dominate more. the center is a dying breed in the NBA right now.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Centers, do you understand that the modern game and rules are Shaped for GUARDS to excell?

Coaches run the game trough wings and guards, exceptionly trough PF .
Dont fool yourselves centers dont usually create their Shots , they need to be set up for it, and No team is ordering their guards to set up centers.

If game was played OLD style and you were " as good as your center is" several centers in the league like Howard, Bogut, Marc Gasol, Horford, Kaman, Lopez, Bynum would be averaging 20 to 25 ppg, but the game is no longer played for centers.

sammid21
09-13-2011, 01:23 PM
i'm not saying he wouldn't dominate, I'm just saying guys like Hakeem and shaq would dominate more. the center is a dying breed in the NBA right now.

True, but there were many dominatant centers when Jordan played and he still owned the 90s without having a center. Thats why Jordan would and could dominate todays game, straight up averaging close to 40 ppg.

No doubt that prime shaq and any other prime great center would dominate todays game, but Jordan would destroy every team.

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Prime Shaq + Me as his sidekick = Title in todays league.

juno10
09-13-2011, 02:25 PM
i remember wilt saying he'd average 70 in todays game i think he said it sometime in the 90's.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 03:11 PM
Centers, do you understand that the modern game and rules are Shaped for GUARDS to excell?

Coaches run the game trough wings and guards, exceptionly trough PF .
Dont fool yourselves centers dont usually create their Shots , they need to be set up for it, and No team is ordering their guards to set up centers.
I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of talented offensive frontcourt players in the NBA, not due to a general shift in the game. Look at teams with elite offensive big men (Orlando, New York, Memphis, Dallas), and those teams still revolve a huge majority of their offense around their big men.


If game was played OLD style and you were " as good as your center is" several centers in the league like Howard, Bogut, Marc Gasol, Horford, Kaman, Lopez, Bynum would be averaging 20 to 25 ppg, but the game is no longer played for centers.
No. This is just wrong. And I don't buy that there is an "old style" in which teams were only "as good as your center is." Look at the Bulls in the 90s, for example. Teams are as good as their talent, and any team can develop an offensive game plan around the most talented player on their roster.

If you put Hakeem an any NBA roster, that team would immediately be a contender. He's every bit the defensive player Dwight was, but a superior offensive player and one of the toughest postseason competitors in the history of the NBA. Look at that Orlando team last season and you'll see what I mean. If you take Howard off that team and replace him with an average center, they'd struggle to win 20 games. With him, they won 52.

That's the kind of impact dominant centers would have in this era of NBA basketball. And if Hakeem (who arguably has the best all around game of any center in NBA history and regularly destroyed other dominant centers of the era in the postseason) played in today's NBA, he might be the most dominant player in the entire league.

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 03:13 PM
i remember wilt saying he'd average 70 in todays game i think he said it sometime in the 90's.

Pretty ridiculous, I doubt he could outscore Shaq or Kareem in the Modern Era considering even back when he played when the league was alot weaker he only averaged over 30ppg 2-3 times on very poor efficiency and his career average is 22ppg.

(Referring to Post-Season play)

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 03:14 PM
I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of talented offensive frontcourt players in the NBA, not due to a general shift in the game. Look at teams with elite offensive big men (Orlando, New York, Memphis, Dallas), and those teams still revolve a huge majority of their offense around their big men.


No. This is just wrong. And I don't buy that there is an "old style" in which teams were only "as good as your center is." Look at the Bulls in the 90s, for example. Teams are as good as their talent, and any team can develop an offensive game plan around the most talented player on their roster.

If you put Hakeem an any NBA roster, that team would immediately be a contender. He's every bit the defensive player Dwight was, but a superior offensive player and one of the toughest postseason competitors in the history of the NBA. Look at that Orlando team last season and you'll see what I mean. If you take Howard off that team and replace him with an average center, they'd struggle to win 20 games. With him, they won 52.

That's the kind of impact dominant centers would have in this era of NBA basketball. And if Hakeem (who arguably has the best all around game of any center in NBA history and regularly destroyed other dominant centers of the era in the postseason) played in today's NBA, he might be the most dominant player in the entire league.

the bulls were the team that changed the trend about revolving teams around cneters.

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 03:15 PM
i remember wilt saying he'd average 70 in todays game i think he said it sometime in the 90's.

the dude barely averaged 50 ppg in a high paced fast era. Now you get guys who are much better and Wilt may not get more than 22 ppg and 14 rpg for his career.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 03:22 PM
the bulls were the team that changed the trend about revolving teams around cneters.

Oh really? I think the early 2000's Lakers and the Spurs from the last 10-12 years would seriously have something to say about that.

C_Mund
09-13-2011, 03:40 PM
Does Len Bias count?

ManningToTyree
09-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Shaq

sammid21
09-13-2011, 03:57 PM
Oh really? I think the early 2000's Lakers and the Spurs from the last 10-12 years would seriously have something to say about that.

What crooner meant by that is that the 90s Bulls proved you dont need your team to revolve around a center to win titles. And the 90s Bulls would beat the 00 lakers and spurs

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 04:27 PM
What crooner meant by that is that the 90s Bulls proved you dont need your team to revolve around a center to win titles.
But this thread isn't debating that. This thread is debating which retired player would dominate today's NBA the most. In a league which is now seriously lacking size and elite defensive big men, I think the Hakeem and Shaq's would destroy 90% of the teams in the NBA.


And the 90s Bulls would beat the 00 lakers and spurs
I'll give you the Spurs, but I think the Lakers would have been an unbelievable rivalry and I don't think either team would have a significant edge. I will say this... the Bulls weren't exactly forced to face elite centers during most of their title runs. They split series with young Shaq's Magic in 95 and 96. And they regularly beat up on Ewing's Knicks, but Ewing was the fourth best center of his era and his team wasn't that talented.

The Bulls got extremely lucky, IMO, that they never had to face Hakeem or Shaq in their primes. If they had, I don't think they win six titles.

TheChamp
09-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Chamberlain, O'neal,.......

THE MTL
09-13-2011, 04:57 PM
I'm sure the obvious answer might be Jordan for some, but with how weak the Center position is, I'm more inclined to go prime Shaq or Kareem. On the other hand, Magic could probably average a triple double and then some. What do you guys think?

I'm more inclined to go with Shaq because his massive size and there is LITERALLY no one in the NBA that could guard him (Howard even had trouble with past-prime Shaq).

Michael Jordan would still crush everyone though. And might even be better because he wouldnt have to deal with hand-checking anymore

But Magic Johnson, WOULD NOT average a triple double. Triple doubles were much more easier to come by in the past. Also, I wonder if Magic would still play the PG or play SF like Lebron James does. He is a massively sized PG, and in today's age iono if Magic could guard guys like: Parker, Rose, Wall, Paul, Jennings, Lawson, etc.

TheNumber37
09-13-2011, 05:00 PM
Has to be Shaq. Jordan woule still go up against the kobes wades and Lebronr... But Shaq would just have to prove he's better than Howard, which is in prime he would have been thrilled to do. Today, he would get his 30,14, 4 ast, 3 blocks... Or what Howard should be getting

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 05:21 PM
I want to say a center.

Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt and Kareem. Jordans numbers wouldn't be any better than they were.

:facepalm:


Centers, do you understand that the modern game and rules are Shaped for GUARDS to excell?

Coaches run the game trough wings and guards, exceptionly trough PF .
Dont fool yourselves centers dont usually create their Shots , they need to be set up for it, and No team is ordering their guards to set up centers.


Spot on, the rule changes have catered to perimeter players. Beside the obvious, I would have to say David Thompson would be exceptional not only would he have a game that favors his style of play but he'd have the 3 point line and probably would have had a longer career because of the NBA's modern substance abuse policies.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 05:26 PM
I'm more inclined to go with Shaq because his massive size and there is LITERALLY no one in the NBA that could guard him (Howard even had trouble with past-prime Shaq).

Michael Jordan would still crush everyone though. And might even be better because he wouldnt have to deal with hand-checking anymore

But Magic Johnson, WOULD NOT average a triple double. Triple doubles were much more easier to come by in the past. Also, I wonder if Magic would still play the PG or play SF like Lebron James does. He is a massively sized PG, and in today's age iono if Magic could guard guys like: Parker, Rose, Wall, Paul, Jennings, Lawson, etc.

Modern coaches woudl probably have forced Magic to the Pf position.
Wich he ended playing a TON on his comeback season btw.

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 05:36 PM
I think people are seriously underrating the defense of many big men.

Bogut, Duncan, Horford, Bynum, Dwight, Camby, Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Noah, Perkins, Dalembert, and Gortat are all excellent defenders, and that's off the top of my head. You've got young bigs like Javale McGee and Omer Asik ready to replace the vets and play at a high level.

Factor in the rule changes and I'll take my chances with Dwight or Duncan guarding Wilt rather than have to put anyone one-on-one with Jordan.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 05:36 PM
the bulls were the team that changed the trend about revolving teams around cneters.

Interesting. Permit me an off topic muse:

The Celts of mid 70's.

Once Russell was retired, and Red couldn't see any replacement on the horizon, he went to a more mobile type of player, and one that could stick a 17 foot jumper. Dave Cowens. His position was "Center" but he was a high post Center - trying to draw the opponent Center away from the basket while Silas patrolled down low for rebounds.

Those title teams were built around Havlicek, Cowens, Silas (2nd title), White

When I look at Cowens on tape now, he's so clearly a prototype #4, not a #5. Red made do, and while Cowens was healthy and focused he delivered.

RCarlson85
09-13-2011, 05:42 PM
I personally think a true center with an offensive game would dominate in today's NBA. I remember watching people like Hakeem, Shaq, Zo, and Ewing in their prime. They were tough going against other top notch centers, so I think someone like that would dominate. Look how much Dwight dominates and he has basically no offensive game at all.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 05:44 PM
I think people are seriously underrating the defense of many big men.

Bogut, Duncan, Horford, Bynum, Dwight, Camby, Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Noah, Perkins, Dalembert, and Gortat are all excellent defenders, and that's off the top of my head. You've got young bigs like Javale McGee and Omer Asik ready to replace the vets and play at a high level.

Factor in the rule changes and I'll take my chances with Dwight or Duncan guarding Wilt rather than have to put anyone one-on-one with Jordan.

I can agree with this. I think most people that say the earlier Centers were better are thinking of low post offense, which is pretty rare nowadays, and how a 7' 1" guy even of moderate skill could dominate a game of less physically gifted players compared to today (think pre 1980).

I mean lets look at Thurmond. A scary presence in his time, his shooting was brutal even by the standards of his time, and wasn't all that fleet of foot. I mean he could go and intimidate Bob Love or Chet Walker, I seriously doubt Thurmond would have put much fear into Worthy or Bird.

I am confident that a Center like Hakeem or Robinson could have handled Wilt pretty well - that's my reference era.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 05:45 PM
I think people are seriously underrating the defense of many big men.

Bogut, Duncan, Horford, Bynum, Dwight, Camby, Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Noah, Perkins, Dalembert, and Gortat are all excellent defenders, and that's off the top of my head. You've got young bigs like Javale McGee and Omer Asik ready to replace the vets and play at a high level.

Factor in the rule changes and I'll take my chances with Dwight or Duncan guarding Wilt rather than have to put anyone one-on-one with Jordan.
Duncan and Camby are getting up there in age, but still pretty elite defenders. Horford is not a great defensive 5, Dalembert and McGee are decent shot blockers but average at best defensively, while Gortat and Asik are still insanely unproven. I'll pretty much give you the others, but even Perkins is a huge question mark after how poorly he performed with the Thunder.

Regardless, that's maybe six or seven guys on 30 teams. And most of them rarely have to deal with an elite offensive center. You put early 90s Hakeem or early 00s Shaq and they would immediately dominate because of the lack of talent at the position.

Whereas, Jordan was certainly an elite player, but I'm not sure he's head and shoulders above the talent level we already have in the league at SG and SF. Do any of you think that if you put Jordan in the league today he would be significantly better than Lebron, Wade, Kobe or Durant? I'm not willing to agree to that....

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 05:45 PM
I personally think a true center with an offensive game would dominate in today's NBA. I remember watching people like Hakeem, Shaq, Zo, and Ewing in their prime. They were tough going against other top notch centers, so I think someone like that would dominate. Look how much Dwight dominates and he has basically no offensive game at all.

I agree, but you are drawing from the strongest era of Centers.

Let's go back to 1965, very few of those guys could play today, and they would be largely defense forces, not offensive.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 05:49 PM
I agree, but you are drawing from the strongest era of Centers.

Let's go back to 1965, very few of those guys could play today, and they would be largely defense forces, not offensive.

I tend to agree. I wouldn't include any center pre-Kareem (Wilt or Russell included) because of how much more athletic the league has become. But you take Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson or Ewing out of the 90s and put them in today's NBA and those guys would have a field day.

knightstemplar
09-13-2011, 06:49 PM
Prime Shaq + Me as his sidekick = Title in todays league.

yeah, thats why Shaq only has 0 rings without Kobe or Wade, automatic win even with a scrub
wait...

VANEXEL9
09-13-2011, 09:11 PM
The iceman doron sheffer

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 09:13 PM
Duncan and Camby are getting up there in age, but still pretty elite defenders. Horford is not a great defensive 5, Dalembert and McGee are decent shot blockers but average at best defensively, while Gortat and Asik are still insanely unproven. I'll pretty much give you the others, but even Perkins is a huge question mark after how poorly he performed with the Thunder.

Regardless, that's maybe six or seven guys on 30 teams. And most of them rarely have to deal with an elite offensive center. You put early 90s Hakeem or early 00s Shaq and they would immediately dominate because of the lack of talent at the position.

Whereas, Jordan was certainly an elite player, but I'm not sure he's head and shoulders above the talent level we already have in the league at SG and SF. Do any of you think that if you put Jordan in the league today he would be significantly better than Lebron, Wade, Kobe or Durant? I'm not willing to agree to that....

I stopped reading after "Horford is not a great defensive 5"

sventhedog
09-13-2011, 09:25 PM
bill laimbeer. literal damage.

sammid21
09-13-2011, 09:37 PM
But this thread isn't debating that. This thread is debating which retired player would dominate today's NBA the most. In a league which is now seriously lacking size and elite defensive big men, I think the Hakeem and Shaq's would destroy 90% of the teams in the NBA.


I'll give you the Spurs, but I think the Lakers would have been an unbelievable rivalry and I don't think either team would have a significant edge. I will say this... the Bulls weren't exactly forced to face elite centers during most of their title runs. They split series with young Shaq's Magic in 95 and 96. And they regularly beat up on Ewing's Knicks, but Ewing was the fourth best center of his era and his team wasn't that talented.

The Bulls got extremely lucky, IMO, that they never had to face Hakeem or Shaq in their primes. If they had, I don't think they win six titles.

Jordan did face Hakeem in his prime. They were both drafted the same year. And Jordan did face shaq when he was dominant in the early years of his prime.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 09:38 PM
I stopped reading after "Horford is not a great defensive 5"

Horford is a 4 playing the 5. Anyone who knows his game knows this. If you do not, I will not apologize for your ignorance. Straight from Hollinger:


Horford's biggest shortcoming is, well, he's short for a center. He stands 6-10 and taller centers can play right over the top of him on post-ups and outreach him for rebounds; he's really more of a power forward. However, despite giving up inches every night, he fouls very infrequently with only five centers getting whistled less often.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 09:39 PM
Jordan did face Hakeem in his prime. They were both drafted the same year. And Jordan did face shaq when he was dominant in the early years of his prime.

Clearly I'm referring to the postseason. And Jordan only faced the Magic in the postseason twice (Shaq's first two seasons in the league) and never faced Hakeem in the postseason.

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 09:43 PM
yeah, thats why Shaq only has 0 rings without Kobe or Wade, automatic win even with a scrub
wait...

Kobe was a nobody in 00 and they won a Ring.
His Casts from 96-00 were pretty bad (definitely not good enough to contend) and although his Magic Casts were decent/good for 1 or 2 years Shaq was far from his Prime (too young) those years and to be fair he lost to Hakeem at his absolute Prime/Peak and Prime Jordan. And the main reason they lost in both those series was because of the Choking/Poor play of his supporting Cast.

Wade wasn't "Flash" before Oneal joined the Heat and Penny wasn't "Lil Penny" before Shaq played with him.

Oneal is the "Creator" (new nickname) of Elite SG's.

Kidding somewhat but Oneal was stupidly and consistently dominant pretty much every year in the RS and PS from 93-05 and the years his teams didn't advance were because his Casts choked or simply weren't good enough.

Anyone who judges an individual player based on a team accomplishment is ignorant.

There were only two players with a similar level of Dominance in the RS and PS when comparing Primes and longevity over their careers and that's Jordan and Kareem.

sammid21
09-13-2011, 09:43 PM
Duncan and Camby are getting up there in age, but still pretty elite defenders. Horford is not a great defensive 5, Dalembert and McGee are decent shot blockers but average at best defensively, while Gortat and Asik are still insanely unproven. I'll pretty much give you the others, but even Perkins is a huge question mark after how poorly he performed with the Thunder.

Regardless, that's maybe six or seven guys on 30 teams. And most of them rarely have to deal with an elite offensive center. You put early 90s Hakeem or early 00s Shaq and they would immediately dominate because of the lack of talent at the position.

Whereas, Jordan was certainly an elite player, but I'm not sure he's head and shoulders above the talent level we already have in the league at SG and SF. Do any of you think that if you put Jordan in the league today he would be significantly better than Lebron, Wade, Kobe or Durant? I'm not willing to agree to that....

You're kidding right? :facepalm: obviously you're too young to have seen Jordan play. He is more of a dominant player than any player today, better than lbj, wade, and Kobe. He dominated a league with far better players in his era. And better defense, not this watered down defensive league where point guards are finding ways to dominate.

In the 60-70s the league was mainly dominated by centers. 80-90 by sf-sg. 00-10 by pg

sammid21
09-13-2011, 09:46 PM
Clearly I'm referring to the postseason. And Jordan only faced the Magic in the postseason twice (Shaq's first two seasons in the league) and never faced Hakeem in the postseason.

What does the playoffs have to do with anything. That's why they play 82 games or does the regular season not count?. He faced shaq from 95-99

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 09:52 PM
What does the playoffs have to do with anything. That's why they play 82 games or does the regular season not count?. He faced shaq from 95-99

Shaq played very well against the Bullz.

They usually beat the Magic since Jordan/Pippen would Dominate the Orlando guards but Oneal in some of those series was clearly the best player on the court.

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 09:56 PM
Horford is a 4 playing the 5. Anyone who knows his game knows this. If you do not, I will not apologize for your ignorance. Straight from Hollinger:

Many say Horford is best suited at the 4 position but I do not see what that has to do with how he actually performs against 5's or what that even has to do with this discussion. I don't know if Horford would be better or worse at a different position, I just know what he is as an NBA center. No comment on quoting John Hollinger as proof.

Horford's numbers compare favorably to any center in the league, and since your quote specifically addressed Post Defense:

Dwight Howard
Post Ups against (as percentage of total defensive plays): 32.5%
Post Up FG% against: 38.2%
Post Up Score % against: 39.7%

Al Horford:
Post Ups against: 31.6%
Post Up FG%: 37.9%
Post Up Score %: 39.2%




Even without the numbers, you watch Horford, he's strong and even though he's allegedly undersized, his quickness and intelligence allows him to be a very successful defender in the post and against Centers in general. What's even more impressive is Horford is doing this all while playing with some horrible perimeter defenders.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 10:25 PM
Many say Horford is best suited at the 4 position but I do not see what that has to do with how he actually performs against 5's or what that even has to do with this discussion. I don't know if Horford would be better or worse at a different position, I just know what he is as an NBA center. No comment on quoting John Hollinger as proof.

Horford's numbers compare favorably to any center in the league, and since your quote specifically addressed Post Defense:

Dwight Howard
Post Ups against (as percentage of total defensive plays): 32.5%
Post Up FG% against: 38.2%
Post Up Score % against: 39.7%

Al Horford:
Post Ups against: 31.6%
Post Up FG%: 37.9%
Post Up Score %: 39.2%

Even without the numbers, you watch Horford, he's strong and even though he's allegedly undersized, his quickness and intelligence allows him to be a very successful defender in the post and against Centers in general. What's even more impressive is Horford is doing this all while playing with some horrible perimeter defenders.
Although you're CLEARLY getting away from the entire point of this thread, I find it interesting you should bring up Dwight Howard numbers. How about these Dwight Howard numbers:

27, 15 and 2, .630, .677 TS%, .238 WS/48

Those were his numbers against Horford over six games in the playoffs. I watched the series, and I was extremely unimpressed with Horford's defense. Maybe it's not fair to compare a player's defense against the best offensive player at his position, but if he was an imposing defender, Dwight doesn't post those numbers.

ChiSox219
09-13-2011, 10:35 PM
Although you're CLEARLY getting away from the entire point of this thread, I find it interesting you should bring up Dwight Howard numbers. How about these Dwight Howard numbers:

27, 15 and 2, .630, .677 TS%, .238 WS/48

Those were his numbers against Horford over six games in the playoffs. I watched the series, and I was extremely unimpressed with Horford's defense. Maybe it's not fair to compare a player's defense against the best offensive player at his position, but if he was an imposing defender, Dwight doesn't post those numbers.

Did you really watch the series?

Collins and Pachulia spent a lot of time on Dwight to ensure Horford would stay out of foul trouble (because even though he's an undersized 4 playing the 5 he's still a pretty damn good offensive player) and the Hawks strategy was to let Dwight get his and stop the rest of the Magic.

Weren't the Magic heavily favored in that series?


Hooray for 5 game sample sizes!

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 10:43 PM
Did you really watch the series?

Collins and Pachulia spent a lot of time on Dwight to ensure Horford would stay out of foul trouble (because even though he's an undersized 4 playing the 5 he's still a pretty damn good offensive player) and the Hawks strategy was to let Dwight get his and stop the rest of the Magic.

Weren't the Magic heavily favored in that series?

Hooray for 5 game sample sizes!

I did watch the series, and that doesn't mean that Horford spent no time whatsoever defending Howard. He got beat just like the rest of the Hawks defenders. And Orlando may have been favored, but Atlanta was clearly the better team. And they won that series almost in spite of Horford. His numbers were piss poor in that series.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 10:44 PM
kermit washington

knightstemplar
09-13-2011, 11:00 PM
Kobe was a nobody in 00 and they won a Ring.
His Casts from 96-00 were pretty bad (definitely not good enough to contend) and although his Magic Casts were decent/good for 1 or 2 years Shaq was far from his Prime (too young) those years and to be fair he lost to Hakeem at his absolute Prime/Peak and Prime Jordan. And the main reason they lost in both those series was because of the Choking/Poor play of his supporting Cast.

Wade wasn't "Flash" before Oneal joined the Heat and Penny wasn't "Lil Penny" before Shaq played with him.

Oneal is the "Creator" (new nickname) of Elite SG's.

Kidding somewhat but Oneal was stupidly and consistently dominant pretty much every year in the RS and PS from 93-05 and the years his teams didn't advance were because his Casts choked or simply weren't good enough.

Anyone who judges an individual player based on a team accomplishment is ignorant.

There were only two players with a similar level of Dominance in the RS and PS when comparing Primes and longevity over their careers and that's Jordan and Kareem.

2000 Western Conference Finals
Game 7

Shaq
18 points
9 rebounds
5 assists
1 block
4 TO

Kobe
25 points
11 rebounds
7 assists
4 blocks
2 TO

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006040LAL.html

All-Defensive 1st Team and All-NBA 2nd Team
Yeah, Kobe was just a nobody

Andrew32
09-13-2011, 11:12 PM
1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Shaquille O'Neal: 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe Bryant: 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

Shaq was the one who led LA back in the 4th quarter in that G7 scoring 9 straight points when Sabonis fouled out and leaping up into the rafters to catch that final alley oop pass.

Kobe was a decent player in 00 but there were plenty of guards in the league better then him and all time wise for guards his 00 season wouldn't even be top 100.

00 Kobe is only slighty better then 03 Parker, both were at heart still roleplayers but they had a handful of big games in the playoffs, still compared to Shaq or Duncan they werent even in the same solar system in those seasons.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2011, 11:40 PM
Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem. Jordan is the easy answer, but in the age of the center position being as weak as ever, a dominant two way center is the right answer here

JasonJohnHorn
09-14-2011, 12:02 AM
Wilt or Hakeem.

DJakk
09-14-2011, 12:05 AM
MJ obviously, but Shaq and Bill Russell would be my two biggest after MJ.

knightstemplar
09-14-2011, 12:06 AM
1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Shaquille O'Neal: 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe Bryant: 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

Shaq was the one who led LA back in the 4th quarter in that G7 scoring 9 straight points when Sabonis fouled out and leaping up into the rafters to catch that final alley oop pass.

Kobe was a decent player in 00 but there were plenty of guards in the league better then him and all time wise for guards his 00 season wouldn't even be top 100.

00 Kobe is only slighty better then 03 Parker, both were at heart still roleplayers but they had a handful of big games in the playoffs, still compared to Shaq or Duncan they werent even in the same solar system in those seasons.

:facepalm:

KingPosey
09-14-2011, 12:24 AM
sooooo michael jordan and close thread.

mightybosstone
09-14-2011, 01:25 AM
You're kidding right? :facepalm: obviously you're too young to have seen Jordan play. He is more of a dominant player than any player today, better than lbj, wade, and Kobe. He dominated a league with far better players in his era. And better defense, not this watered down defensive league where point guards are finding ways to dominate.

In the 60-70s the league was mainly dominated by centers. 80-90 by sf-sg. 00-10 by pg
I'm not saying that MJ wouldn't still put up impressive numbers in today's NBA, but I don't think you're considering the difference in athleticism from 15 years ago until today. Kobe and Lebron may have done similar things in Jordan's era, and I don't know that he would be significantly better than those guys.

Whereas Olajuwon and Shaq, on the other hand, would benefit from inferior players at his position, Jordan would be entering a league with a multitude of extremely athletic, versatile wing players.


What does the playoffs have to do with anything. That's why they play 82 games or does the regular season not count?. He faced shaq from 95-99
When it comes to taking players' legacies seriously, yes, the postseason does matter. In fact, I think you can argue that the postseason is more important than regular season dominance. But, my point was, that Jordan's Bulls never had to face Shaq or Hakeem in their primes in the postseason, and I don't think he would have six rings if that had happened. In fact, Hakeem's Rockets performed quite well in the regular season against Jordan's Bulls in the regular season, if I'm not mistaken.

KingPosey
09-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Mightybosstone you are wrong. Jordan would light it it up. He was scoring 30 a game on the Wizards when he was old, against a lot of today's athleticism in their primes. Also, defense in the NBA was 100 times better 20-30 years ago.

sheba021
09-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Obviously Jordan. Then you have Kareem, Magic, Muhammad Ali....
:laugh: He'd be the greatest hatchet man ever by far!

Raph12
09-15-2011, 03:39 PM
People don't understand how post play has changed, there are too many touch fouls being called and too many guys flopping for Shaq to be as dominant as many think he would be... If we're talking centers; Dream, DRob and Kareem would benefit from the league today; if we're talking any player, easily Jordan.

seanbond
09-15-2011, 03:57 PM
Yao

Marco22
09-15-2011, 04:08 PM
Wilt (The Big Dipper) would destroy any center you name. You would have had to have seen him to believe how awesome of a player he was! Wilt was in a class by himself.

smith&wesson
09-15-2011, 04:12 PM
shaq
hakeem
bird
jordan
magic

smith&wesson
09-15-2011, 04:14 PM
Wilt (The Big Dipper) would destroy any center you name. You would have had to have seen him to believe how awesome of a player he was!

i think prime shaq would be too strong and big for prime wilt. shaq wasnt just huge he was crazy athletic for his size in his prime.

mdm692
09-15-2011, 04:17 PM
I'm not saying that MJ wouldn't still put up impressive numbers in today's NBA, but I don't think you're considering the difference in athleticism from 15 years ago until today. Kobe and Lebron may have done similar things in Jordan's era, and I don't know that he would be significantly better than those guys.

Whereas Olajuwon and Shaq, on the other hand, would benefit from inferior players at his position, Jordan would be entering a league with a multitude of extremely athletic, versatile wing players.


When it comes to taking players' legacies seriously, yes, the postseason does matter. In fact, I think you can argue that the postseason is more important than regular season dominance. But, my point was, that Jordan's Bulls never had to face Shaq or Hakeem in their primes in the postseason, and I don't think he would have six rings if that had happened. In fact, Hakeem's Rockets performed quite well in the regular season against Jordan's Bulls in the regular season, if I'm not mistaken.

lebron wouldnt get above 25ppg in jordans era. You do realize athletic ability dont mean a thing back then they didnt call all those pu$$y calls they call now a days just for looking the wrong way at lebron. As soon as lebron would try to go up for a dunk he would get knocked upside his head and it would just be a regular foul not those gay flagrant fouls. Defenses were better back in the day. Theres only a handful of players who could succeed in the jordan era. Ray allen, nash, duncan, dwight, kobe, shaw, hill. All of which have really high basketball iq's with the exception of shaq and maybe dwight who are just beasts down low. Kobe would be the only one who could get close to doing what mj did.

Andrew32
09-15-2011, 04:20 PM
Yea, I have watched Film of Wilt and honestly I dont think he was as athletic as Shaq.

I dont think Wilt ever had the hops, speed, strength or explosiveness of Young/Prime Shaq.

Young Shaq almost had a 13 foot vertical reach.. that's insane and an NBA record.

mightybosstone
09-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Mightybosstone you are wrong. Jordan would light it it up. He was scoring 30 a game on the Wizards when he was old, against a lot of today's athleticism in their primes. Also, defense in the NBA was 100 times better 20-30 years ago.

This post has two inaccuracies.... First off, Jordan's numbers took a huge dive when he played with Washington and he averaged 22.9 and 20.0 PPG in his two seasons there. Second, Jordan didn't play in the NBA 30 years ago. He was drafted in 1984 (27 years ago) and the peak of his career was from 15-25 years ago.

Stack_NJNets
09-15-2011, 06:50 PM
Hakeem the Dream.

mightybosstone
09-15-2011, 07:04 PM
lebron wouldnt get above 25ppg in jordans era. You do realize athletic ability dont mean a thing back then they didnt call all those pu$$y calls they call now a days just for looking the wrong way at lebron. As soon as lebron would try to go up for a dunk he would get knocked upside his head and it would just be a regular foul not those gay flagrant fouls. Defenses were better back in the day. Theres only a handful of players who could succeed in the jordan era. Ray allen, nash, duncan, dwight, kobe, shaw, hill. All of which have really high basketball iq's with the exception of shaq and maybe dwight who are just beasts down low. Kobe would be the only one who could get close to doing what mj did.

I think you guys are SERIOUSLY overplaying the whole "wings get better calls now" argument. Yes, I will say that fouls are a little too giving to star players in today's NBA. But you're telling me Jordan didn't get the star treatment, either?

For Jordan's career, he averaged 28.3 PPG and 6.4/7.7 free throws a night. That means 22.6% of his points came from the free throw line over his career. Lebron's career numbers are 27.7 PPG and 6.6/8.9 free throws a night, meaning 23.8% of his points come from the free throw line. Yes, Lebron averaged 1.3 more FTA a game in his career, but from 86-89, Jordan averaged between 9.8 and 11.9 FTA a night.

If Jordan plays today, MAYBE he averages another 1-2 FTA per night, but I also don't think his athleticism gives him nearly as big of an advantage offensively as it did in the 80s and 90s.

Also, your "handful of players could succeed in Jordan's era" argument is absolute ********. You're telling me someone like Lebron James couldn't succeed back then? Name one SF in the history of the NBA with his size, speed, strength combination? In fact, I think ALL successful players in the league today could "succeed" in Jordan's era. The game is always changing, but athletes are getting better, faster and stronger. Not slower. And if you honestly believe this, I think you should have your head examined...

jericho
09-15-2011, 07:22 PM
drob
dream
ewing
kareem
shaq
mourning
rick smiths
mutombo
divac
we just need centers lots of them lol
and lmao at whoeva said jordan wldnt dominte as much as in the 90s it wld be like if he was playing with lil kids with the touch fouls and all i wldnt be surprised if he avg 50ppg (i know im exagerating a lil bit) but come on touch fouls no real centers on the inside to stop him cuz you know gona get past the kobe's lebron's and wade's once that happens who going to stop a prime athletic young jordan attacking the rim maybe just maybe dwight
oh and i know he aint a superstar but i wld love to see rodman back getting all those reb getting the other players mad playing mind games with them

beasted86
09-15-2011, 08:05 PM
LeBron definitely could succeed in the 90s style defense, but his efficiency would not be as high. That goes for a majority of the players in today's league.

mwoodri
09-15-2011, 08:30 PM
MJ and it's not even close. The game is called much differently now than when he played in that there is no perimeter hand check allowed anymore. That's why the game has become more perimeter dominant. He would shoot a ton more free throws if you were to hand check him today because that is now a foul, where in his era that was "physical hard nosed defense." If you didn't hand check him, well....he'd have a field day every night out. Larry Brown has been quoted as saying Jordan would average 45+ points a game with todays rules in place when he played.

Wilt wouldn't be much more dominant because he was just taller than everyone else when he played. 7 footers are now almost the norm down low.

Andrew32
09-15-2011, 09:28 PM
Shaq
Finalz 00-02
00 - 38 // 16.7 // 2.4 // --- 61.1 FG%
01 - 33 // 15.8 // 4.8 // --- 57.3 FG%
02 - 36.3 // 12.3 // 3.8 // --- 59.5 FG%

MDEver

Catoblepas
09-15-2011, 09:58 PM
hard to say.. because David Stern wouldnt allow Shaq to do what he did back in his prime.. Physical Basketball has gone far from the NBA imo.. since the 03-04 playoffs.. Love my Pistons.. but man.. those playoffs were a blood bath. Elbows, pushing, uncalled flagrant fouls etc..

Anyway in todays game.. I choose.. Prime Pistol Pete!

Andrew32
09-15-2011, 10:06 PM
hard to say.. because David Stern wouldnt allow Shaq to do what he did back in his prime..

Post up? :facepalm:

JNA17
09-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Hakeem. Seriously with his offensive post game, incredible defense and lack of talented centers in today's NBA, he would make almost every other starting center in the league a d-league player.

Bishnoff
09-15-2011, 10:43 PM
Can we dig up Wilt?

This.

Also Shaq, The Dream, and Kareem. Basically any dominant big man since this is arguably the weakest position in the league at present.