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JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Voting for #33 has concluded and PSD's Official #33 NBA Player of all time is....

Clyde Drexler

Top 4 Voting:

Clyde Drexler = 23 votes
Allen Iverson = 14 votes
Jason Kidd = 4 votes
Gary Payton = 3 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)
30. Patrick Ewing (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649815)
31. Bob Cousy (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=650318)
32. Walt Frazier (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651181)
33. Clyde Drexler (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651737)



Voting will now begin for the #34 NBA Player All Time


These are the players that can be voted for the #34 spot.

Willis Reed
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
Artis Gilmore
Hal Greer

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 04:09 PM
VOTE: Taking Gary Payton here. Led the Sonics to 6 seasons in a row of 55+ wins. Led them to the finals once, led them to the best record another time and finished top 3 in MVP voting in 1998 and led the Sonics to 61 wins.

NYKalltheway
09-12-2011, 04:28 PM
I wanna say McHale, but unsure as of now

KnicksorBust
09-12-2011, 05:07 PM
I wanna say McHale, but unsure as of now

I'm sure. He was a top 5 low post scorer and a phenomenal defender.

14th all-time in true shooting percentage
11th all-time in offensive rating
6x all-defensive team member (could guard almost any positon on the floor)
Statistics improved in the playoffs
3x NBA Champion

Avenged
09-12-2011, 05:17 PM
I was voting Payton a couple spots back.. I'll go with him here.

NYKalltheway
09-12-2011, 05:28 PM
Iverson's gonna win this :/

Bruno
09-12-2011, 05:32 PM
Glove! Kidd should go in front of AI as well.

I also agree with NYK and K-O-B that McHale should start getting serious consideration.

Bruno
09-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Iverson's gonna win this :/

The Iverson coalition will be pissed if he doesn't.

Chacarron
09-12-2011, 05:44 PM
My vote goes to Gary Payton.

NYKalltheway
09-12-2011, 05:53 PM
The Iverson coalition will be pissed if he doesn't.

he shouldn't. Might have to vote for the Glove then

Hellcrooner
09-12-2011, 06:09 PM
since mchale is not gonna get the love , ill wait and vote whoever deserves its over that dude.

mightybosstone
09-12-2011, 06:30 PM
I voted Walton again. I would still easily take Walton, McHale, Nash and Kidd over Iverson. I'm torn on Payton.

Cano4prez
09-12-2011, 06:39 PM
GP.. Even though AI will win despite the fact he doesn't deserve it

mavwar53
09-12-2011, 06:54 PM
To many youngsters voting on this poll, there is no way payton or AI are as good as Reed Unseld Gervin or Worthy. And please explain how T-Mac is even on the list, what has this guy accomplished in his career.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-12-2011, 06:56 PM
:laugh2:


Vote Payton to prevent Iverson from winning.

Hellcrooner
09-12-2011, 06:57 PM
Willis Reed
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkins
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Dave Cowens
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Robert Parish
Pau Gasol
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
Paul Pierce
Hal Greer


All of bolded ones NEED to over Iverson.
The rest are debatable.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 06:57 PM
To many youngsters voting on this poll, there is no way payton or AI are as good as Reed Unseld Gervin or Worthy. And please explain how T-Mac is even on the list, what has this guy accomplished in his career.

If this list was about accomplishments all the players of the Celtic dynasty would be top 50 players of all time.

T-Mac has the 3rd highest career post season average, one of the greatest peaks of any swingman in the history of the game.

T-Mac has a strong case for top 50.

Hellcrooner
09-12-2011, 07:00 PM
If this list was about accomplishments all the players of the Celtic dynasty would be top 50 players of all time.

T-Mac has the 3rd highest career post season average, one of the greatest peaks of any swingman in the history of the game.

T-Mac has a strong case for top 50.

well guess what they ARE in the official nba top 50 list ( voted by profesionals btw)

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Willis Reed
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkins
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Dave Cowens
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Robert Parish
Pau Gasol
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
Paul Pierce
Hal Greer


All of bolded ones NEED to over Iverson.
The rest are debatable.

Crooner GTFO. 3 threads ago you said about 30 players should be ahead with a further 25+ and maybe more being debatable. Now you're changing your tune? Just like you said Dirk wasn't top 70 now you're saying he's top 30 and saying you never said that.

If you want to debate that's fine I could hear why someone would say that but have some cojones. Stand your ground and stop changing your tune when you realize how foolish you made yourself sound.

Hellcrooner
09-12-2011, 07:04 PM
Crooner GTFO. 3 threads ago you said about 30 players should be ahead with a further 25+ and maybe more being debatable. Now you're changing your tune? Just like you said Dirk wasn't top 70 now you're saying he's top 30 and saying you never said that.

If you want to debate that's fine I could hear why someone would say that but have some cojones. Stand your ground and stop changing your tune when you realize how foolish you made yourself sound.

oh, dont worry IN MY OPINION ALL OF THE PLAYERS that i listed there ( that are votable options) deserve to be ahead of him.
But i agree that some people can debate if some of them ( not bolded) deserve it or not.

And of course there are a ton of NON VOTABLE players i woudl take before Iverson, like Say Datnley, or English, Or Wilkes, Or Bellamy , Or dumars, or Buck williams, or so on and on.

Iverson is not top 70 for me,

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 07:09 PM
well guess what they ARE in the official nba top 50 list ( voted by profesionals btw)

All the players are part of those Celts dynasties are there?

Tom Heinsohn, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey :shrug:

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 07:10 PM
oh, dont worry IN MY OPINION ALL OF THE PLAYERS that i listed there ( that are votable options) deserve to be ahead of him.
But i agree that some people can debate if some of them ( not bolded) deserve it or not.

And of course there are a ton of NON VOTABLE players i woudl take before Iverson, like Say Datnley, or English, Or Wilkes, Or Bellamy , Or dumars, or Buck williams, or so on and on.

Iverson is not top 70 for me,

Continuing to contradict yourself. It's a damn shame.

You said you don't like Gervin because he's "inefficient" right? :pity: But yet he's bolded

Hellcrooner
09-12-2011, 07:25 PM
Continuing to contradict yourself. It's a damn shame.

You said you don't like Gervin because he's "inefficient" right? :pity: But yet he's bolded

the fact that I dont like him, does not mean he shouldnt be voted in over iverson by all means.

Cano4prez
09-12-2011, 07:41 PM
Swash who do you think should go here?

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 07:50 PM
Swash who do you think should go here?

I'm torn between Payton, Gervin, A.I., Mchale, Kidd and Gilmore.

Hustlenomics
09-12-2011, 09:18 PM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season


VOTE: ALLEN IVERSON

Chronz
09-12-2011, 09:27 PM
I think you can stop posting that, we all know who your voting

Geargo Wallace
09-12-2011, 09:56 PM
McHale is one of my top 5 favorite players ever but I went with Kidd for some reason. It has nothing to do with this past season either. It really feels like a toss up between Kidd and Payton. I expect McHale, Kidd, Payton, Dominique, and Gervin to get a lot of attention for the next few spots.

Lakersfan2483
09-12-2011, 10:01 PM
I am going with the "Answer," Allen Iverson.

Knick Killer
09-13-2011, 02:40 AM
All NBA (1st)
Jason Kidd 5
Allen Iverson 3
Gary Payton 2

NBA All-Defensive (1st)
Gary Payton 9
Jason Kidd 4
Allen Iverson 0

Championships / Finals / Minutes Played in Playoffs
Jason Kidd 1 / 3 / 5697
Gary Payton 1 / 3 / 5482
Allen Iverson 0 / 1 / 3205

Vote: Jason Kidd

ShakeN'Bake
09-13-2011, 07:27 AM
McHale is one of my top 5 favorite players ever but I went with Kidd for some reason. It has nothing to do with this past season either. It really feels like a toss up between Kidd and Payton. I expect McHale, Kidd, Payton, Dominique, and Gervin to get a lot of attention for the next few spots.

Yup, that's who it was between for me. I went for McHale.

I wish we could still nominate, I think Pistol Pete should have been on the voting list.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 07:51 AM
voted for Payton, in part to deny AI. But Payton actually deserves the vote ahead of AI.

No love for Gilmore... he should be considered. McHale too.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 07:55 AM
I wish we could still nominate, I think Pistol Pete should have been on the voting list.

If you toss in college, Pete deserves onto a list, but he was a bust as a pro. Walton belongs more then volume scoring, crappy D Maravich.

I'm glad to see Dominique tumbling down the list too. Anti D, Anti team, and a huge waste of talent. He never made his teams better. Maybe one of the greatest one on one players ever - too bad the game is 5 on 5. Perfect for the ESPN highlight clip generation. He was 10 years too early for full fame to those types.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 10:05 AM
If you toss in college, Pete deserves onto a list, but he was a bust as a pro. Walton belongs more then volume scoring, crappy D Maravich.

I'm glad to see Dominique tumbling down the list too. Anti D, Anti team, and a huge waste of talent. He never made his teams better. Maybe one of the greatest one on one players ever - too bad the game is 5 on 5. Perfect for the ESPN highlight clip generation. He was 10 years too early for full fame to those types.

What kind of nonesense is this? How in the hell could a top 100 player (arguably top 70) of all time be as bust? He must have had G.O.A.T. potential right?

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm thinking if I should start voting A.I. now. I mean how many guys are really voting against A.I. now? Are these guys winning these polls or is A.I. just losing. It's like most posters are just taking the popular route instead of doing the research and attempting to formulate their own honest opinion.

Guys make a case for your player and stop joining the popular vote and going against Allen Iverson. At least be make a case. Payton better than A.I. well state why. I'm most likely going to take Payton here as well but it's a shame that only a select few are actually willing to choose Payton based on their own opinion rather than just following so that A.I. doesn't get up there. :pity:

LakersIn5
09-13-2011, 11:38 AM
I'm thinking if I should start voting A.I. now. I mean how many guys are really voting against A.I. now? Are these guys winning these polls or is A.I. just losing. It's like most posters are just taking the popular route instead of doing the research and attempting to formulate their own honest opinion.

Guys make a case for your player and stop joining the popular vote and going against Allen Iverson. At least be make a case. Payton better than A.I. well state why. I'm most likely going to take Payton here as well but it's a shame that only a select few are actually willing to choose Payton based on their own opinion rather than just following so that A.I. doesn't get up there. :pity:

this

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm thinking if I should start voting A.I. now. I mean how many guys are really voting against A.I. now? Are these guys winning these polls or is A.I. just losing. It's like most posters are just taking the popular route instead of doing the research and attempting to formulate their own honest opinion.

Guys make a case for your player and stop joining the popular vote and going against Allen Iverson. At least be make a case. Payton better than A.I. well state why. I'm most likely going to take Payton here as well but it's a shame that only a select few are actually willing to choose Payton based on their own opinion rather than just following so that A.I. doesn't get up there. :pity:
the problem is there are SEVERAL ( the number will be different deppending on posters) that are MORE DESERVING than AI.
If there WASNT a LOBBY that has been trying to sneak AI since a ridicuosly early moment people would vote what they feel.
BUT since that LOBBY exists people rather join a bandwaggon of a player they THINK deserves to be voted before AI than allow the Lobby to hype him up from where they think Ai deserves.

I wont bandwaggon a player that is not deserving of going over him ( example Shawn kemp or Sam Jones).

But for example id rather vote Payton this time , who i think deserves better than Iverson than "lose" my vote to Mchale or to Kidd.

NYKalltheway
09-13-2011, 12:13 PM
Want a case?

Allen Iverson is not better than 3/4 of the players on the poll. Care to argue otherwise?

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Want a case?

Allen Iverson is not better than 3/4 of the players on the poll. Care to argue otherwise?

I took Payton because he kept the Sonics elite yearly.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 01:31 PM
I took Payton because he kept the Sonics elite yearly.

This is what I mean, at least give a reason. I rather someone add to the debate and state exactly why they are taking a player rather than say they're taking a player because another one doesn't deserve to win.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 01:32 PM
the problem is there are SEVERAL ( the number will be different deppending on posters) that are MORE DESERVING than AI.
If there WASNT a LOBBY that has been trying to sneak AI since a ridicuosly early moment people would vote what they feel.
BUT since that LOBBY exists people rather join a bandwaggon of a player they THINK deserves to be voted before AI than allow the Lobby to hype him up from where they think Ai deserves.

I wont bandwaggon a player that is not deserving of going over him ( example Shawn kemp or Sam Jones).

But for example id rather vote Payton this time , who i think deserves better than Iverson than "lose" my vote to Mchale or to Kidd.

The point is Crooner MAKE A CASE. If you think Payton should win tell us why. Don't tell us he should win because A.I. shouldn't.

Chronz
09-13-2011, 03:37 PM
I took Payton because he kept the Sonics elite yearly.

What about all those early flameouts? Arent you from HCA? I cant think of a player who has disrespected your homeland of HCA as much as GP has.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 03:41 PM
What kind of nonesense is this? How in the hell could a top 100 player (arguably top 70) of all time be as bust? He must have had G.O.A.T. potential right?

I don't need stats for an opinion on Maravich, I saw him play in college, and compared to his college career his pro career was a bust - which I witnessed a good amount of, a few times in person.

Top 70?

Volume shooter with a .441 FG%, led the league twice in FGA, 3 other times top 9. NEVER in the top 10 for FG%. Very excellent FT shooter. Had a pretty good passing eye for a scorer. So much for the good news.

Poor defender. One of the least athletic guards of his time, beaten like a rug with regularity.

Best WS/48 was an anemic .144, career an abysmal .092

NBA talent level was low in his time due to the ABA. What's his best year? '76-'77 31.1 PPG - nice - on 12.1 for 28 shooting.

Last good year at age 29. 5 good years in all. Top 70?

His reputation is top 70, his reality is not. It's simply the truth.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm thinking if I should start voting A.I. now. I mean how many guys are really voting against A.I. now? Are these guys winning these polls or is A.I. just losing. It's like most posters are just taking the popular route instead of doing the research and attempting to formulate their own honest opinion.

Payton was a very long lived player that played great defense, and in his peak was a very tough offensive player as well. A team player that fit in.

Iverson was a short tweener that couldn't really play point due to his scorers nature. He was too short to guard most #2's. He didn't choose to play defense very often. His career was pock marked with poor behavior on and off the court. He was immature and selfish.

Payton wins this match-up easily.

JordansBulls
09-13-2011, 04:07 PM
What about all those early flameouts? Arent you from HCA? I cant think of a player who has disrespected your homeland of HCA as much as GP has.

The HCA applies to guys who are regularly at the top of the league like top 3-5.

KnicksorBust
09-13-2011, 04:17 PM
voted for Payton, in part to deny AI. But Payton actually deserves the vote ahead of AI.

No love for Gilmore... he should be considered. McHale too.

I guess it's okay to vote for Payton... you know... since Frazier is already up there. :)

KnicksorBust
09-13-2011, 04:20 PM
I don't need stats for an opinion on Maravich, I saw him play in college, and compared to his college career his pro career was a bust - which I witnessed a good amount of, a few times in person.

Top 70?

Volume shooter with a .441 FG%, led the league twice in FGA, 3 other times top 9. NEVER in the top 10 for FG%. Very excellent FT shooter. Had a pretty good passing eye for a scorer. So much for the good news.

Poor defender. One of the least athletic guards of his time, beaten like a rug with regularity.

Best WS/48 was an anemic .144, career an abysmal .092

NBA talent level was low in his time due to the ABA. What's his best year? '76-'77 31.1 PPG - nice - on 12.1 for 28 shooting.

Last good year at age 29. 5 good years in all. Top 70?

His reputation is top 70, his reality is not. It's simply the truth.

"I don't need stats... but here's a **** load of them."

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 04:32 PM
I don't need stats for an opinion on Maravich, I saw him play in college, and compared to his college career his pro career was a bust - which I witnessed a good amount of, a few times in person.

Top 70?

Volume shooter with a .441 FG%, led the league twice in FGA, 3 other times top 9. NEVER in the top 10 for FG%. Very excellent FT shooter. Had a pretty good passing eye for a scorer. So much for the good news.

Poor defender. One of the least athletic guards of his time, beaten like a rug with regularity.

Best WS/48 was an anemic .144, career an abysmal .092

NBA talent level was low in his time due to the ABA. What's his best year? '76-'77 31.1 PPG - nice - on 12.1 for 28 shooting.

Last good year at age 29. 5 good years in all. Top 70?

His reputation is top 70, his reality is not. It's simply the truth.

So you really think Pete Maravich was a bust? Based on what? Your assessment of his skill, his lack of production at the NBA level. Well that's based on what your view is of Maravich and your personal expectations for him, by no means does that make him a bust. Because he didn't live up to your hype. Do you understand the term bust?

In his best year as you pointed out he finished top 3 in the league in MVP shares. He wasn't the best producer nor was he the most efficient but regardless of that he was effective.

James Worthy and Isiah Thomas career WS/48 is lower than that of .120. Both of these guys are in the top 70 conversation with Isiah being routinely ranked among the top 30. Sure their respective careers took different paths in terms of accolades and intangible worth but let's not use a single metric to gauge a player's rank.

I'd won't say he's top 70, I said it's arguable as In I've read enough to see why someone would consider putting him in their top 70.

Fact is however to call a man who was good enough to make 4 All NBA teams (two 1st) a bust is extremely unfair no matter how great he was in college. He didn't meet all his potential ok understood but classing him with the likes of Darko, Kwame, Olowokandi, Morrison etc. That's baseless.

KnicksorBust
09-13-2011, 04:48 PM
The more I think about it the more I think McHale should be going here. He was also an 1st team all-nba defender but he could guard more positions and was much better than Payton offensively.

mightybosstone
09-13-2011, 04:58 PM
The more I think about it the more I think McHale should be going here. He was also an 1st team all-nba defender but he could guard more positions and was much better than Payton offensively.

Why not Walton? He was first team all defensive in 77 and 78, the years when he won an NBA Championship and Finals MVP and the NBA MVP. Combine that with his ridiculous all around numbers over those seasons and Walton is easily a top 10 all time NBA center. Sure McHale has the longevity, but if you give me the option of taking either player in their prime for one postseason, I take Walton easily and I don't think twice about it.

bagwell368
09-13-2011, 06:21 PM
In his best year as you pointed out he finished top 3 in the league in MVP shares. He wasn't the best producer nor was he the most efficient but regardless of that he was effective.

Votes by humans swayed by hype does not constitute proof. I said he was good/very good for 5 years - not great - not an all time great, and not even a decade best sort of player (talk about weak decades).


James Worthy and Isiah Thomas career WS/48 is lower than that of .120. Both of these guys are in the top 70 conversation with Isiah being routinely ranked among the top 30. Sure their respective careers took different paths in terms of accolades and intangible worth but let's not use a single metric to gauge a player's rank.

You never saw me vote for those two have you?


I'd won't say he's top 70, I said it's arguable as In I've read enough to see why someone would consider putting him in their top 70.

Well you are arguing, so it must be arguable. OK, he can be considered w/o causing people to vomit. But he doesn't do it for me - and that's not from the stats.


Fact is however to call a man who was good enough to make 4 All NBA teams (two 1st) a bust is extremely unfair no matter how great he was in college. He didn't meet all his potential ok understood but classing him with the likes of Darko, Kwame, Olowokandi, Morrison etc. That's baseless.

Sorry, votes may have happened, but it doesn't make them fair or correct.

Great he wasn't a bust. I disliked his style, his lack of defense, all the phantom fouls he got, and all the cred he got even when he was on his last legs and couldn't defend a beached whale because people kept thinking of his unreal college career, and his stupid floppy yellow socks.

I tend to be hard on scorers, in particular volume ones that don't care to play defense. It's a flaw - from being a 4/5 in college, and coaching a few dozen teams. Defense first. And if you don't lay the ball down on a 3 on 1, expect to do laps until you have dry heaves.

Chronz
09-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Pistol Pete not being on the list is appropriate

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:26 PM
Votes by humans swayed by hype does not constitute proof. I said he was good/very good for 5 years - not great - not an all time great, and not even a decade best sort of player (talk about weak decades).

You never saw me vote for those two have you?

Well you are arguing, so it must be arguable. OK, he can be considered w/o causing people to vomit. But he doesn't do it for me - and that's not from the stats.

Sorry, votes may have happened, but it doesn't make them fair or correct.

Great he wasn't a bust. I disliked his style, his lack of defense, all the phantom fouls he got, and all the cred he got even when he was on his last legs and couldn't defend a beached whale because people kept thinking of his unreal college career, and his stupid floppy yellow socks.

I tend to be hard on scorers, in particular volume ones that don't care to play defense. It's a flaw - from being a 4/5 in college, and coaching a few dozen teams. Defense first. And if you don't lay the ball down on a 3 on 1, expect to do laps until you have dry heaves.

Quite frankly that's all I really wanted to read. I think its extremely unfair to him to call him a bust. I understand your POV however.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 06:26 PM
imo the only dude with a strong case really missing is walt bellamy.

you could argue dantley, or wilkes and a number of others .

NYKalltheway
09-13-2011, 06:29 PM
Quite frankly that's all I really wanted to read. I think its extremely unfair to him to call him a bust. I understand your POV however.

you understand that he doesn't rate players by stats? :confused: :speechless:

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 06:33 PM
you understand that he doesn't rate players by stats? :confused: :speechless:

Did you not see he posted stats in his defense of saying Pete is not top 70 all time? Two words..... Reading Comprehension

ManningToTyree
09-13-2011, 06:47 PM
I believe the Glove fits here

NYKalltheway
09-13-2011, 07:01 PM
Did you not see he posted stats in his defense of saying Pete is not top 70 all time? Two words..... Reading Comprehension



Well you are arguing, so it must be arguable. OK, he can be considered w/o causing people to vomit. But he doesn't do it for me - and that's not from the stats.



:confused:

English is my 4th language, what's your excuse? :cool:

KnicksorBust
09-13-2011, 07:02 PM
Why not Walton? He was first team all defensive in 77 and 78, the years when he won an NBA Championship and Finals MVP and the NBA MVP. Combine that with his ridiculous all around numbers over those seasons and Walton is easily a top 10 all time NBA center. Sure McHale has the longevity, but if you give me the option of taking either player in their prime for one postseason, I take Walton easily and I don't think twice about it.

Walton has always been one of the more difficult players to compare historically. To be honest, I don't necessarily disagree with your argument about Walton at his peak but his prime only lasted those 3 years and that's being generous. He didn't play a full season in any of those seasons and only was healthy for one playoff run. He was the best player on the planet for about an 18 month stretch but he just didn't accomplish enough in his career for me to warrant a ranking here.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 07:06 PM
:confused:

English is my 4th language, what's your excuse? :cool:

Again comprehension.


I disliked his style, his lack of defense, all the phantom fouls he got, and all the cred he got even when he was on his last legs and couldn't defend a beached whale because people kept thinking of his unreal college career, and his stupid floppy yellow socks.

I tend to be hard on scorers, in particular volume ones that don't care to play defense. It's a flaw - from being a 4/5 in college, and coaching a few dozen teams. Defense first. And if you don't lay the ball down on a 3 on 1, expect to do laps until you have dry heaves.

^ That is his POV.

NYKalltheway
09-13-2011, 07:35 PM
yes, i don't see stats though... I mock Lebron's headband, that doesn't make him less of a great player. Do you "understand my POV" too if I'd use it as a measurement of player quality?

CB4AB7VC15
09-13-2011, 09:32 PM
Iverson, kidd and Payton should all be ahead of Clyde. How come fans from the 80s and earlier on dislike iverson soo much? Also Shaq would eat wilt, Kareem and Russel. Let's be real here, we've all seen highlights and know basketball start to develop in the 80s. Anyone who disagree is just bias or 40 plus.

Hellcrooner
09-13-2011, 09:37 PM
Iverson, kidd and Payton should all be ahead of Clyde. How come fans from the 80s and earlier on dislike iverson soo much? Also Shaq would eat wilt, Kareem and Russel. Let's be real here, we've all seen highlights and know basketball start to develop in the 80s. Anyone who disagree is just bias or 40 plus.

cause we care bout team basketball?

CB4AB7VC15
09-13-2011, 10:00 PM
Team ball? Every team has a go to guy that creates the plays. Rose, dirk, lebron. there's more one on one than team ball. Ai was just the same. score if u can or move it to the open player. Also his teammates weren't really second or third options. Mostly role players.

Geargo Wallace
09-13-2011, 10:32 PM
Iverson, kidd and Payton should all be ahead of Clyde. How come fans from the 80s and earlier on dislike iverson soo much? Also Shaq would eat wilt, Kareem and Russel. Let's be real here, we've all seen highlights and know basketball start to develop in the 80s. Anyone who disagree is just bias or 40 plus.


Team ball? Every team has a go to guy that creates the plays. Rose, dirk, lebron. there's more one on one than team ball. Ai was just the same. score if u can or move it to the open player. Also his teammates weren't really second or third options. Mostly role players.


This is a thread on "The Greatest NBA Players of All-Time", not a thread on "Who Would Be The Best In This Era Of NBA Basketball". I don't know why you're bringing up this "go-to-guy" garbage, and I don't know why being a leading scorer seems to be the only thing you speak of when evaluating players.

... and "we've all seem highlights" is just beyond funny. I don't do the facepalm thing, but you sir, deserve a :facepalm:.

THE MTL
09-13-2011, 10:40 PM
I wonder how high Iverson would be if he actually won a ring?

Anyway, I think Jason Kidd should have this spot. And I think Iverson deserves it over Payton. And since Jason Kidd is far behind in the voting, I guess I'll vote for ALLEN IVERSON.

ewmania
09-13-2011, 10:46 PM
timeout lol... time the hell out lolll

did dirk, lebron & wade seriously just go over isaih thomas? lo

and did dirk & wade seriously just go over scotty pippen??

this is a joke right?

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 10:50 PM
timeout lol... time the hell out lolll

did dirk, lebron & wade seriously just go over isaih thomas? lo

and did dirk & wade seriously just go over scotty pippen??

this is a joke right?

:confused:

Why is that so hard to believe?

ewmania
09-13-2011, 11:03 PM
:confused:

Why is that so hard to believe?

Isaih Thomas, 84-85 season

21pts, 14assists, 6rebounds, 3steals, 80%FT... ... ... and dont get me started on his advanced stats

he has the 3rd highest assist average in a season right under stockon

neither one of those guys had a better season than that ever in they career

Isaih has two chips with 3 final appearences... lets get real here thats a no contest

Geargo Wallace
09-13-2011, 11:20 PM
Isaih Thomas, 84-85 season

21pts, 14assists, 6rebounds, 3steals, 80%FT... ... ... and dont get me started on his advanced stats

he has the 3rd highest assist average in a season right under stockon

neither one of those guys had a better season than that ever in they career

Isaih has two chips with 3 final appearences... lets get real here thats a no contest

So 1 statistically great season, and 2 Championships (team awards), make Isiah heads and shoulders above the players listed? I can understand that you disagree, but it's not as ludicrous as you think it is.

Stuckey#3
09-13-2011, 11:23 PM
AI did way more than Payton... don't even know where to begin. Payton was never #1 option and was good but swam in the wake of NBA Superstars. Penny was never even "arguably" the best player in the league at anytime in his career.

Swashcuff
09-13-2011, 11:24 PM
Isaih Thomas, 84-85 season

21pts, 14assists, 6rebounds, 3steals, 80%FT... ... ... and dont get me started on his advanced stats

he has the 3rd highest assist average in a season right under stockon

neither one of those guys had a better season than that ever in they career

Isaih has two chips with 3 final appearences... lets get real here thats a no contest

When you say don't get you started on his advanced stats what do you mean?

Isiah also did not average 6 rebounds or 3 steals in that season. He never did that at any time in his career.

If you ask me you cherry-picked and think that that's making a case. Why not be comprehensive?

ewmania
09-13-2011, 11:27 PM
So 1 statistically great season, and 2 Championships (team awards), make Isiah heads and shoulders above the players listed? I can understand that you disagree, but it's not as ludicrous as you think it is.

i was just using that season as an example, isiah has been a dominate PG for most of his career, its reason he's in the Hall of Fame

sure he's a idiot GM and my 1year old niece can run a organization better than him, but he's still one of the greatest players to ever play the game

lebron vs Isiah ok i agree thats a good argument... but that's as far as i'm going

Stuckey#3
09-13-2011, 11:30 PM
Was Payton ever the best player on his own team? Why does this dude get so much love?

Vincent33
09-14-2011, 12:15 AM
I knew it was down to either Payton(What?) or Iverson for #34, but I voted for Bill Walton anyways. Carried the Blazers to the 77 NBA title. Along the way, he led them to a sweep over the Lakers and PSD's #2 greatest player ever, won the Finals MVP after defeating Dr. J and the 76ers. Had a 2nd career of sorts with Boston, won 6th Man Award and 2nd chip in 86.

No way should Kemp, McGrady, Mourning, KJ should even be considered on this list. I mean top 50 of all time? Really? They're choices but guys like Dennis Johnson, Bernard King, Dave DeBusschere, and Pete Maravich are not? Silly.

Swashcuff
09-14-2011, 12:20 AM
I knew it was down to either Payton(What?) or Iverson for #34, but I voted for Bill Walton anyways. Carried the Blazers to the 77 NBA title. Along the way, he led them to a sweep over the Lakers and PSD's #2 greatest player ever, won the Finals MVP after defeating Dr. J and the 76ers. Had a 2nd career of sorts with Boston, won 6th Man Award and 2nd chip in 86.

No way should Kemp, McGrady, Mourning, KJ should even be considered on this list. I mean top 50 of all time? Really? They're choices but guys like Dennis Johnson, Bernard King, Dave DeBusschere, and Pete Maravich are not? Silly.

McGrady has a better case than all those players you mentioned.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 12:23 AM
McGrady has a better case than all those players you mentioned.

mmmm i wouldnt say that.
At least regarding D Johnson and Debuschere, IMO id place King above him but i can see why would someone place tmac ahead of him.



I also think Next year this thing has to be carried in other way.


First POSITIONAL rankings and then the top 50 ( with an slightly modified system than the one MHC is using in current top 10 because it woudl be even worse if talking all time.)


and of course having someone with KNOWLEDGE of the league doing the PRE lists for each position.

The_Jamal
09-14-2011, 01:30 AM
I don't see why you have a problem with the system MHC is using. Sure, if PSD ****s up like they did with Amare over Pau and Bosh then the list will be slightly screwed up. But it'll still be how PSD votes and keep the voting honest with how PSD ranks players

Baller1
09-14-2011, 02:37 AM
This is what I mean, at least give a reason. I rather someone add to the debate and state exactly why they are taking a player rather than say they're taking a player because another one doesn't deserve to win.

The best defensive PG of all-time, only PG to ever win defensive player of the year, loads of further accomplishments, and would have lead the Seattle Sonics to a championship had he not run into the greatest basketball team in NBA history.

That's my reasoning (also my reasoning for why he should be higher than this).

Geargo Wallace
09-14-2011, 09:17 AM
I don't see why you have a problem with the system MHC is using. Sure, if PSD ****s up like they did with Amare over Pau and Bosh then the list will be slightly screwed up. But it'll still be how PSD votes and keep the voting honest with how PSD ranks players

I think you're in the wrong thread. This is the All Time one.

Ebbs
09-14-2011, 10:34 AM
Why do people like GP over Nash or Kidd?

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Why do people like GP over Nash or Kidd?

please don't compare Nash to either Payton or Kidd.

Defense is more than 50% of the game, so Payton gets his credit there. I have Payton, Kidd, Cheeks and Kevin Johnson interchangeable at the point guard spot question after the obvious choices.

P.S: I think I feel the same way about Nash as bagwell feels about Pistol Pete :p

LakersIn5
09-14-2011, 11:05 AM
LOL at crooner he just wants psd members who has "KNOWLEDGE" to vote on the lists. really? really? really?! this is the god damn PSD'S TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS WHICH MEANS THE LIST GOES ACCORDING TO THE OPINIONS OF THE PSD COMMUNITY! IF YOU WANT TO HAVE IT YOUR WAY THEN YOU BETTER CHANGE IT TO "PSD MEMBERS W/ KNOWLEDGE TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS" !!!! NOONE CAN MAKE A PERFECT TOP 50 LIST EVER!!!!!!! EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINION!

Geargo Wallace
09-14-2011, 11:10 AM
LOL at crooner he just wants psd members who has "KNOWLEDGE" to vote on the lists. really? really? really?! this is the god damn PSD'S TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS WHICH MEANS THE LIST GOES ACCORDING TO THE OPINIONS OF THE PSD COMMUNITY! IF YOU WANT TO HAVE IT YOUR WAY THEN YOU BETTER CHANGE IT TO "PSD MEMBERS W/ KNOWLEDGE TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS" !!!! NOONE CAN MAKE A PERFECT TOP 50 LIST EVER!!!!!!! EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINION!

Caps lock is right beside the A key.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 11:11 AM
Caps lock is right beside the A key.

hint: on the left side

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Gary Payton 19
Allen Iverson 19
Jason Kidd 11

few more hours to decide whether AI fanboys get their votes counted. I'm curious to see if they're gonna be voting after this, like the Kobe fanboys who stopped voting after #8 :p

Ebbs
09-14-2011, 11:19 AM
I don't get the hate for AI but his case has been argued for.

As for GP and Kidd to Nash I think it's more than fair to argue.

Were talking about a back to back MVP. Whose averaged 50 - 40 - 90 % wise over a 4 year period. During that time he had his team seriously competing and lead the league in TS%, ORTG, and AST% at various points.

Also I feel his defensive woes have always been slightly exagerated.

JordansBulls
09-14-2011, 11:20 AM
If there is a tie, then one of two things we can do.

1. Have a vote off between Payton and Iverson

or

2. Only accept the votes of people who actually posted in this thread. (meaning we don't count the votes of posters who simply just voted and made no comment)

Ebbs
09-14-2011, 11:22 AM
#1. Though it can be annoying to see people not post reasoning discounting the vote of a poster wo may not have had time to support his claim or was tired of supporting his claim since he has voted for AI in 6 consecutive threads is unfair.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 11:29 AM
I think we should do a revote between just the two guys so that everyone gets a decision around those two ;)

Ebbs, no one denies that Nash is phenomenal on the playmaking and offensive end, but his defensive woes are more like holes on the wall. Very evident.
Jason Kidd on the other hand was almost a triple double threat.
Kevin Johnson was the PG of the team that took out Magic's Lakers and Stockton's Jazz in the same series.
And Gary Payton was a great playmaking PG who was immense on the defensive end as well. He's called the glove for a reason, though I'd take "lil' Mo" ahead of him but that's probably just me and some Sixers and 80s fans :)

Nash does great what people demand TODAY for a pg. Which is to run the plays and be able to shoot from distance, plus he's great at FT. But Chauncy Billups was a similar player, not as great on the playmaking end of course, but a great shooter, great defender and also won a championship with a team that "lacked stars" as people tend to say. Why isn't Chauncey on the same equation as Nash? 2 regular season MVP titles? Fair argument, but many players won MVP awards, even Unseld, and nobody remembers them really. (here is why Crooner and other guys are correct when saying titles matter a lot)

In older times, there wasn't just a PG that called plays. There were many versatile players, and back in the 60s and 70s a lot of teams played with 3 guards, with 2-3 able to "bring the ball down" (as we say over here) and call plays. Hence why some players had less assists etc than many of today's PGs. It has become a SG & SF = scorer game today, and even PGs are volume scorers today. So it's hard to compare head-to-head. The game has changed. Nash is great for today's game, but overall, compared to other eras, I'm not sure if he'd be better than Pete Maravich.

Ebbs
09-14-2011, 11:35 AM
But how can you hold him back due to that argument? You can say the same thing about alot of the older guys in this era who physically and due to rule changes and what not would be nowhere near as effective. All we have is what they did in their era. Nash outright dominated his era. And has shown his longevity being a top point guard for a long stretch.

Chauncey was a great point guard but he wasn't Nash. He couldn't do the things on offense Nash did. I love what the Pistons did but that team was a great complete team and people argued who their most valuable player was often. I don't think anyone would take Amare over prime Nash in that suns era.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 11:43 AM
On one hand, I'd rather my team be like the Pistons, wins the championship and people still argue who the best player was. It's a team sport, the team wins, players do their best to achieve that, no need to have just 1 guy to "lead" you ;)

Second, most teams in the past were "stacked". It was team effort that won them the league. Even Michael Jordan, the GOAT according to over 99% of the basketball world, needed his teammates to help him. You can't win on your own. Lebron James, arguably the best player in the league in the last 2-3 years, hasn't won the championship yet.
Nash was part of such a team though. Amare, Joe Johnson, Marion etc is not what you'd call a bad team. (don't really remember those Suns teams by roster, correct me if I'm wrong)

As for physical advances. Correct. But. Since it's a general thing that today's players are more "athletes" than "players", you can argue that had Oscar Robertson played in today's game, he'd be much more athletic than his 60s self. Why take that away from them then? ;)

Ebbs
09-14-2011, 11:56 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652552

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 11:58 AM
lol

Raps08-09 Champ
09-14-2011, 12:04 PM
:speechless:

Not Iverson!

Chronz
09-14-2011, 02:07 PM
Lets have a vote off, I think the only people voting for AI are AI fanatics while all the people voting elsewhere would rather see GP win.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 02:25 PM
Ebbs, no one denies that Nash is phenomenal on the playmaking and offensive end, but his defensive woes are more like holes on the wall. Very evident.
Jason Kidd on the other hand was almost a triple double threat.
Jason Kidds lack of shooting was just as evident, its why hes never led a proficient offensive unit in his prime whereas Nash was always spearheading one.



Kevin Johnson was the PG of the team that took out Magic's Lakers and Stockton's Jazz in the same series.

Underrated but not forgotten, KJ would have been even greater in todays era.


And Gary Payton was a great playmaking PG who was immense on the defensive end as well. He's called the glove for a reason, though I'd take "lil' Mo" ahead of him but that's probably just me and some Sixers and 80s fans :)

Definitely just you guys.


Nash does great what people demand TODAY for a pg. Which is to run the plays and be able to shoot from distance, plus he's great at FT.
Whats the point of emphasizing today? That just makes it more impressive considering players of eras prior didnt have the long range shooting ability he wields. The complexity of offenses and defenses has continued to increase.


But Chauncy Billups was a similar player, not as great on the playmaking end of course, but a great shooter, great defender and also won a championship with a team that "lacked stars" as people tend to say. Why isn't Chauncey on the same equation as Nash? 2 regular season MVP titles? Fair argument, but many players won MVP awards, even Unseld, and nobody remembers them really. (here is why Crooner and other guys are correct when saying titles matter a lot)

Billups should be in the same breath as Nash, Billups is wildly underrated because the general population doesnt understand stats. They see a player with a low FG% playing on a slow pace team and they think because he lacks the flashy per game averages that he doesnt have a similar impact. Advanced Stats really love Billups and they paint a picture of a player much closer to Nash than the general populace (Media and Coaches included) wouldnt see.


In older times, there wasn't just a PG that called plays. There were many versatile players, and back in the 60s and 70s a lot of teams played with 3 guards, with 2-3 able to "bring the ball down" (as we say over here) and call plays.
According Jerry West they didnt call plays the way they do even 20 years ago, they just had a basic set of principles and they reacted to whatever the defense threw at them. But yes they didnt pigeon hole players into positions but thats partly because they lacked the freak athletes to really differentiate those players from one another. Jerry West eventually turned into a PG even though he played SG back when the league was smaller.


Hence why some players had less assists etc than many of today's PGs.
False, the reason is because the definition of what constitutes an assist was strict. Across eras theres about a 10% decline in assist rates because of this, so you account for that in cross era translations. In terms of per game averages, it doesnt change much because of the pace of the game declined along with the more liberal definition.


It has become a SG & SF = scorer game today, and even PGs are volume scorers today.
Thats because we have superior perimeter players and inferior bigmen.


So it's hard to compare head-to-head. The game has changed.

Yes the advent of the 3pt line changed the game but arent you comparing Nash to guys from the not so distant past?


Nash is great for today's game, but overall, compared to other eras, I'm not sure if he'd be better than Pete Maravich.

LOL then you dont know jack **** about Pistol Pete, hes the antithesis of Nash. Nash wouldnt be as dominant without the 3pt line and thats the only similarity the 2 share but Nash would fit in anywhere. He had the mid range game that was prevalent in that day and age.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 02:29 PM
^i wouldnt Call, Dirk, Pau, Kg, Duncan, Bosh, Webber, Rasheed, Stoudamire "inferior" players, and they are bigs.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 02:36 PM
Dude you know I meant centers, we lack the talent at the top but still its not as bad as guard play was in the olden days.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 02:44 PM
0.6 less blocks per game as well..

Mile High Champ
09-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Steve Nash. One of the best PG's ever and he has won 2 MVP's.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 03:40 PM
Chronz, every member of the successful 80s Sixers team said that the most important player was Maurice Cheeks. There's also the leadership ability he has, you can't measure that either. There's the positive psychological effect a player can bring, you can't measure that. Ask Julius Erving, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney etc, they'll all say Mo Cheeks is the most important player of that team (while Moses Malone was the catalyst for the 83 championship of course)

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 04:10 PM
saved by the bell.

posters with a brain , we should talk before voting for 35 to take a one way decision instead of splitting votes and allowing an undeserving player to go before his time because of disagreements.

Chronz
09-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Chronz, every member of the successful 80s Sixers team said that the most important player was Maurice Cheeks.
OK? The same was said by the Big O's teammates when they won the title that doesnt stop me from acknowledging the superior contributions of Kareem. Nor would it hold any relevance in an argument where I use it as a barometer for _insert player here_ being > so and so. Hell wasnt Spoelstra saying Bosh was his teams MIP, it speaks to your replacement value to your own team but says nothing to distinguish you from another player at your position.


There's also the leadership ability he has, you can't measure that either.
You cant measure it either so it holds no relevance.


There's the positive psychological effect a player can bring, you can't measure that.
Again, it holds no relevance in an argument against GP because he had a cerebral element that you cannot measure. You can go on and on listing the things we cannot measure, not realizing your only hurting your own argument talking about things you cannot quantify, when we inevitably get to the things we can measure, things like production, league wide value and perception, GP crushes him. You can allege that its because its something we are missing but your lack of objective evidence is what makes you the minority in such matters.



Ask Julius Erving, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney etc, they'll all say Mo Cheeks is the most important player of that team (while Moses Malone was the catalyst for the 83 championship of course)

Why would I even care to ask them? When whats most impotant is that they know who the best players were, "The catalysts".

pd7631
09-14-2011, 04:45 PM
saved by the bell.

posters with a brain , we should talk before voting for 35 to take a one way decision instead of splitting votes and allowing an undeserving player to go before his time because of disagreements.

The man who hates conspiracies is trying to create one himself....oh the irony

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 04:48 PM
The man who hates conspiracies is trying to create one himself....oh the irony

a conspirancy would be made on PM.

pd7631
09-14-2011, 04:55 PM
a conspirancy would be made on PM.

And how do I know that you haven't sent any PM's?

Hellcrooner
09-14-2011, 04:59 PM
And how do I know that you haven't sent any PM's?

i would be the worst conspirator in the world if i did and also went public.

the word you are looking for is "campaign" wich is legal.

pd7631
09-14-2011, 05:02 PM
i would be the worst conspirator in the world if i did and also went public.

the word you are looking for is "campaign" wich is legal.

Nah, I don't believe you. I think you're in cahoots with other posters.

NYKalltheway
09-14-2011, 05:07 PM
So Chronz, only things that can be measured are relevant? Guess you don't have a MasterCard :laugh: