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Mile High Champ
09-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Chris Paul
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 02:28 PM
I can't believe Dirk wasnt even top 2 and now he may slip to past 5th. Dude was easily the best player last season when you factor in the season and playoffs.

Mile High Champ
09-11-2011, 02:29 PM
Can't believe Dirk has continued to fall this far. I can understand Howard and James but after that I am just shocked. Dirk deserves to be higher than 5, especially after what he just accomplished..

bovice163
09-11-2011, 02:30 PM
I can't believe Dirk wasnt even top 2 and now he may slip to past 5th. Dude was easily the best player last season when you factor in the season and playoffs.

I completely agree. Some people's minds are really clouded by advanced stats.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 02:30 PM
Going Dirk here again. I think he wins here. The fight between Durant, Kobe and Rose will be interesting.

Chacarron
09-11-2011, 02:30 PM
I think Dirk is good at 5 so I'll vote for him.

29$JerZ
09-11-2011, 02:31 PM
Dirk

THE GIPPER
09-11-2011, 02:36 PM
dirk for me followed by durant

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 02:37 PM
I completely agree. Some people's minds are really clouded by advanced stats.

Tell me something, surround CP3 with a top 10 SG, SF, PF and C, do you think he can lead a that team to a title?

eg
C: Tyson Chandler
PF: David West
SF: Luol Deng
SG: James Harden

I'm guessing your answer would be no right? I'm also guessing if asked the same about Dirk's Mavs prior to the post season you'd also say no.

Note: I too voted Dirk ahead of CP3 as well.

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 02:47 PM
Tell me something, surround CP3 with a top 10 SG, SF, PF and C, do you think he can lead a that team to a title?

eg
C: Tyson Chandler
PF: David West
SF: Luol Deng
SG: James Harden

I'm guessing your answer would be no right? I'm also guessing if asked the same about Dirk's Mavs prior to the post season you'd also say no.

Note: I too voted Dirk ahead of CP3 as well.


He had that in New Orleans. He didn't even lead his team in scoring.

heatbb
09-11-2011, 02:49 PM
Why is Bynum in this list?

Anyway, I went with Bryant. Was a tough one between him and Nowitzki, but I think Bryant is still the better of the two.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 02:51 PM
He had that in New Orleans. He didn't even lead his team in scoring.

I don't facepalm often but :facepalm:

JB get this garbage out of here please.

Chandler >> Okafor
West
Deng >>>> Ariza
Harden >> Belinelli

also the Mavs had the best bench in the NBA.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 02:55 PM
JordansBulls was Magic Johnson ever a top 5 player in the league? How about Bill Russell?

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 02:56 PM
I don't facepalm often but :facepalm:

JB get this garbage out of here please.

Chandler >> Okafor
West
Deng >>>> Ariza
Harden >> Belinelli

also the Mavs had the best bench in the NBA.

Okafor and Chandler are equals.
Deng is better than Ariza I'd give you that.

Mavs had 3 guys injured in the playoffs. Imagine anyone else having 3 guys injured and still winning 2 series without HCA. Remember CP3 has been in the league 8 years and only out of round 1 once and only won 1 series with HCA. Basically is 1-1 in series with HCA and 0-2 in series without it.

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 02:59 PM
JordansBulls was Magic Johnson ever a top 5 player in the league? How about Bill Russell?

Not sure what that has to do with Chris Paul. Those guys won multiple league mvp's and titles, CP3 has never won more than 1 playoff series and never won a league mvp. Granted those guys went to teams that had a guy who won league mvp, but eventually they won mvp's themselves.

Chronz
09-11-2011, 03:05 PM
I completely agree. Some people's minds are really clouded by advanced stats.

You do realize you're quoting a man who picks and chooses when/which stats are relevant.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:05 PM
Okafor and Chandler are equals.
Deng is better than Ariza I'd give you that.

Mavs had 3 guys injured in the playoffs. Imagine anyone else having 3 guys injured and still winning 2 series without HCA. Remember CP3 has been in the league 8 years and only out of round 1 once and only won 1 series with HCA. Basically is 1-1 in series with HCA and 0-2 in series without it.

Deng and Chandler are not equals. I'd love to see you prove to me that they are equals. Chandler is better on both ends of the floor than Okafor. What about Harden and Belinelli?

JB stop talking about HCA I don't care about HCA. HCA is a TEAM accomplishment.

CP3 has been in the league 6 years NOT 8.

juno10
09-11-2011, 03:07 PM
gonna go with kobe here,one season removed of back to back finals mvp he regressed a bit this year but i like him here.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Not sure what that has to do with Chris Paul. Those guys won multiple league mvp's and titles, CP3 has never won more than 1 playoff series and never won a league mvp. Granted those guys went to teams that had a guy who won league mvp, but eventually they won mvp's themselves.

I did not ask you about their accomplishments or their careers. I asked you if they were ever top 5 players.

Hear what ignore their accomplishments for the minute. Just view their production. Are they top 5 players in the league?

bovice163
09-11-2011, 03:08 PM
Tell me something, surround CP3 with a top 10 SG, SF, PF and C, do you think he can lead a that team to a title?

eg
C: Tyson Chandler
PF: David West
SF: Luol Deng
SG: James Harden

I'm guessing your answer would be no right? I'm also guessing if asked the same about Dirk's Mavs prior to the post season you'd also say no.

Note: I too voted Dirk ahead of CP3 as well.

I'm not trying to downplay CP3 at all man. I understand he's the best two way player, and most efficient in all facets of the game. I just felt Dirk deserved at least a top 3 or 4 mention, since he's actually been on a winning squad for the better part of the last 6 or 7 years. His playoff and finals performance should have pushed him over the top as well.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:09 PM
You do realize you're quoting a man who picks and chooses when/which stats are relevant.

He's quick to say CP3 didn't lead his team in scoring but ignores the many other categories in which he did. However when making a case for Clyde as a top 35 player he's quick to say he lead a championship team in total season WS. Ironic isn't it? Why not mention PPG then?

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 03:12 PM
He's quick to say CP3 didn't lead his team in scoring but ignores the many other categories in which he did. However when making a case for Clyde as a top 35 player he's quick to say he lead a championship team in total season WS. Ironic isn't it? Why not mention PPG then?

Because you say CP3 didn't have help, but yet he was in his prime and yet had another guy who led the team in scoring and now all of a sudden he had no help. That was the point I was making. And I never said Drexler didn't play with the best player in the league in 1995, I just said he led a championship team in win shares in the season and playoffs.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:13 PM
I'm not trying to downplay CP3 at all man. I understand he's the best two way player, and most efficient in all facets of the game. I just felt Dirk deserved at least a top 3 or 4 mention, since he's actually been on a winning squad for the better part of the last 6 or 7 years. His playoff and finals performance should have pushed him over the top as well.

I understand and agree with you. Like I said I went Dirk before. The very same reason you made your choice was the reason why I made mine. However, to put it into perspective, had CP3 been given a better, deeper and healthier supporting cast in the right system IMO he too is a good enough player to do what Dirk was able to do.

That however is hypothetical which is why I chose Dirk but we can't take the JB route and say player X lead a team to a title beating 3 teams with All NBA 1st and 2nd teams and no other all start so he's the best. Fact is Dirk didn't beat those teams, the Mavericks did. They played cohesive and came out on top. Was Dirk the biggest reason for that, hell yes but let's not downplay the support he got.

ewmania
09-11-2011, 03:15 PM
im picking kobe in this 1

Sadds The Gr8
09-11-2011, 03:15 PM
I completely agree. Some people's minds are really clouded by advanced stats.

agreed. they're great for arguing and debates but it's ridiculous when people just looked at advanced stats as the end all-be all for player comparisons.

LakersMaster24
09-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Went with Dirk here. Kobe is going to be next for me.

Its funny how our MVP is not even a Top 5 player in the league :laugh:

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Because you say CP3 didn't have help, but yet he was in his prime and yet had another guy who led the team in scoring and now all of a sudden he had no help. That was the point I was making. And I never said Drexler didn't play with the best player in the league in 1995, I just said he led a championship team in win shares in the season and playoffs.

I never said he didn't have help.

I also never season that you said Drexler was the best. It was however to prove a point that Chronz rightfully made. You pick and chose in which circumstance which statistics you see as relevant.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Went with Dirk here. Kobe is going to be next for me.

Its funny how our MVP is not even a Top 5 player in the league :laugh:

Tell me are you attempting to diss Derrick Rose or the league for their MVP voting?

LakersMaster24
09-11-2011, 03:24 PM
Tell me are you attempting to diss Derrick Rose or the league for their MVP voting?

League MVP voting. :p

The_Jamal
09-11-2011, 04:00 PM
I'm a bit surprised Rose or Kobe aren't running away with the poll after all the *****ing about them not being included earlier. But this is easily Dirk here. I'm much more interesting in #6 however as I could easily see arguments for Kobe, Durant or Rose

LTBaByyy
09-11-2011, 04:33 PM
Dirk for the 3rd time in a row

naps
09-11-2011, 04:59 PM
He's quick to say CP3 didn't lead his team in scoring but ignores the many other categories in which he did. However when making a case for Clyde as a top 35 player he's quick to say he lead a championship team in total season WS. Ironic isn't it? Why not mention PPG then?

Arguing with JB is like arguing with a deal wall. He will keep on quoting you but won't bother touching what you are saying there. All he will put up is WS/HCA,/allstars etc etc. And when you catch him with the double standard he'll then automatically find out something irrelevant and stupid that doesn't make any sense but help his case to cover it up.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 05:08 PM
Arguing with JB is like arguing with a deal wall. He will keep on quoting you but won't bother touching what you are saying there. All he will put up is WS/HCA,/allstars etc etc. And when you catch him with the double standard he'll then automatically find out something irrelevant and stupid that doesn't make any sense but help his case to cover it up.

What gets me is the fact that he can start an argument but will never finish it. The man runs every time he's questioned.

alencp3
09-11-2011, 05:18 PM
Dirk here, and it gets interesting after that.

SteBO
09-11-2011, 05:27 PM
I seriously laugh my butt off everytime I hear how Dirk has taken this fall despite what he accomplished this past year as if he's really evolved into another level of play. The man has been the same player year in and year out for the past half decade or so. In saying that, I voted him here. Dirk is in his rightful place at #5.

Youmad?
09-11-2011, 05:41 PM
This list is a joke kobe should've been #1 or #2 Lebron and Chris Paul are overrated

nycericanguy
09-11-2011, 06:14 PM
I seriously laugh my butt off everytime I hear how Dirk has taken this fall despite what he accomplished this past year as if he's really evolved into another level of play. The man has been the same player year in and year out for the past half decade or so. In saying that, I voted him here. Dirk is in his rightful place at #5.

agreed, he got over the hump and they beat a MIA team that was vulnerable in year 1. He had a great run, but people are putting him above Karl Malone even now because of 1 title. he's still the same player and a 1 way player at that.

I actually had Dirk at #4 though ahead of CP3. CP3 is incredibly efficient and hands down the best PG in the league. But he needs to average more than 15ppg for that team when he's easily their best player. That and injuries put him below Dirk IMO and below Kobe as well.

SteBO
09-11-2011, 06:20 PM
agreed, he got over the hump and they beat a MIA team that was vulnerable in year 1. He had a great run, but people are putting him above Karl Malone even now because of 1 title. he's still the same player and a 1 way player at that.

I actually had Dirk at #4 though ahead of CP3. CP3 is incredibly efficient and hands down the best PG in the league. But he needs to average more than 15ppg for that team when he's easily their best player. That and injuries put him below Dirk IMO and below Kobe as well.
It's the scoring aspect of CP3's game that actually almost had me go Dirk at #4 as well. I just felt that Paul was the best two-way player left on that board, even though Dirk isn't anywhere near as bad defensively as many make him out to be. Dirk at 4 or 5 is fine by me. But to make him out to be a top 3 player though was just too much for me to accept especially if the primary reason is because he won a title without a clear #2 star without HCA. That's just flawed reasoning to me.

Chacarron
09-11-2011, 06:27 PM
This list is a joke kobe should've been #1 or #2 Lebron and Chris Paul are overrated

What makes you say this? You must have a good explanation I assume.

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 06:28 PM
What makes you say this? You must have a good explanation I assume.

Did you even read his name? He can't possibly have any kind of explanation for his ignorance.

Chacarron
09-11-2011, 06:31 PM
Did you even read his name? He can't possibly have any kind of explanation for his ignorance.

I was trying to give him a chance to explain himself. Maybe, who knows, just maybe, he knows something we all don't. :rolleyes:

LTBaByyy
09-11-2011, 07:05 PM
Looks like I am staying on PSD since Dirk is going to win this

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 07:13 PM
Arguing with JB is like arguing with a deal wall. He will keep on quoting you but won't bother touching what you are saying there. All he will put up is WS/HCA,/allstars etc etc. And when you catch him with the double standard he'll then automatically find out something irrelevant and stupid that doesn't make any sense but help his case to cover it up.

I've already proven you wrong several times. Why do you continue to insist this when I back up my arguments while you use hypotheticals?

LakersMaster24
09-11-2011, 07:14 PM
Looks like I am staying on PSD since Dirk is going to win this

I was already thinking you will take your talents to another forum.

SteBO
09-11-2011, 07:21 PM
I've already proven you wrong several times. Why do you continue to insist this when I back up my arguments while you use hypotheticals?
Not that you don't use facts on most occasions, but how can you use HCA, one playoff run while leaving out the fact that Dirk, from an individual/basketball standpoint hasn't changed. He's been the same player. You can't just bump him up to #1 because the MAVS win a title without HCA in the 2nd round through the Finals, and that he won without a clear cut #2 star. That's flawed reasoning because you're in essence totally ignoring the fact Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Tyson Chandler especially, all had a huge impact. And please don't ever say that CP3's supporting cast was better than Dirks'. That's nowhere close to being the truth.

GREATNESS ONE
09-11-2011, 07:51 PM
I'll give it to the Champ here

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 07:52 PM
Not that you don't use facts on most occasions, but how can you use HCA, one playoff run while leaving out the fact that Dirk, from an individual/basketball standpoint hasn't changed. He's been the same player. You can't just bump him up to #1 because the MAVS win a title without HCA in the 2nd round through the Finals, and that he won without a clear cut #2 star. That's flawed reasoning because you're in essence totally ignoring the fact Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Tyson Chandler especially, all had a huge impact. And please don't ever say that CP3's supporting cast was better than Dirks'. That's nowhere close to being the truth.

I voted Dirk last round but I couldn't agree with this any more. Dirk was the same player he was before. All Dirk did last season was up his efficiency to years past and maybe showed a bit more commitment on D. Is that really enough to catapult him to the best player in the game? Had Dirk's supporting cast been more reliable and consistent in the past could he may have actually won a title before. He didn't win a title his team did.

The_Jamal
09-11-2011, 07:52 PM
I'm looking forward to the next round. I can see 3 guys going in the next spot

marj987
09-11-2011, 08:09 PM
I didn't even go into the number 4 player list cause I thought Dirk had that for sure.....Don't worry, if Dirk can't get the respect he derves on a website, he can damn sure get some in the REAL world,
I love Dirk he brought so much to the city that I was raised then and he will forever be known in Dallas as "The one who brought redemption"
The man has been with the same team for over 10 years, and never gave up and he can't even get what he deserves on a website?
PSD is a joke man.

naps
09-11-2011, 08:11 PM
I've already proven you wrong several times. Why do you continue to insist this when I back up my arguments while you use hypotheticals?

I never used any hypotheticals. JB, you have been callled out by pretty much every good poster on this site for your weird reasoning of evaluating a player. The fact that you can't differentiate individual and team accomplishments automatically takes you out of the debate there. I didn't want to argue with you and I didn't quote you either. I was agreeing with Swasscuff because I saw the same thing happening here. And talking about double standards, I'll let you think. (Hint: Chauncey Billups).

naps
09-11-2011, 08:13 PM
Not that you don't use facts on most occasions, but how can you use HCA, one playoff run while leaving out the fact that Dirk, from an individual/basketball standpoint hasn't changed. He's been the same player. You can't just bump him up to #1 because the MAVS win a title without HCA in the 2nd round through the Finals, and that he won without a clear cut #2 star. That's flawed reasoning because you're in essence totally ignoring the fact Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Tyson Chandler especially, all had a huge impact. And please don't ever say that CP3's supporting cast was better than Dirks'. That's nowhere close to being the truth.

Funny thing is he once PMed saying he has owned every poster on PSD. No one can beat him in a debate...haha. What a funny claim.

tredigs
09-11-2011, 08:15 PM
I never used any hypotheticals. JB, you have been callled out by pretty much every good poster on this site for your weird reasoning of evaluating a player. The fact that you can't differentiate individual and team accomplishments automatically takes you out of the debate there. I didn't want to argue with you and I didn't quote you either. I was agreeing with Swasscuff because I saw the same thing happening here. And talking about double standards, I'll let you think. (Hint: Chauncey Billups).

It is unfortunate that somebody who knows so much about basketball fails to get it. Whatever though, keeps the debates entertaining... and frustrating.

Dirk at 5 is a solid choice.

KD next.

Then Kobe just ahead of Rose.

My choice? Lebron, Cp3, Wade, Howard, Dirk/Durant, Kobe.

But this is a good list.

JordansBulls
09-11-2011, 08:21 PM
I never used any hypotheticals. JB, you have been callled out by pretty much every good poster on this site for your weird reasoning of evaluating a player. The fact that you can't differentiate individual and team accomplishments automatically takes you out of the debate there. I didn't want to argue with you and I didn't quote you either. I was agreeing with Swasscuff because I saw the same thing happening here. And talking about double standards, I'll let you think. (Hint: Chauncey Billups).

When you can't even win with a proven winner as the man already and two top 15 players in the league in there prime with one being top 3 as well and then get outscored by a guy coming off the bench in the finals :speechless:then what does that say about you as a player? That does not show anything of you being even close to the best especially when you had HCA.

Lets take a look here at some all time greats records with HCA vs 50+ win teams and vs 50 and less



HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Russell: 10-0 / 12-1
Shaq: 11-2 / 12-2
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1
Duncan: 13-4 / 8-0
Jabbar: 11-3 / 23-2
Olajuwon: 4-0 / 5-2
Bird: 10-6 / 14-1
Wilt: 4-3 / 9-2
Tmac: 0-2 / 0-0
Kobe: 18-2 / 6-0
Lebron: 1-3/ 8-0
Wade: 1-2/ 6-0



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%) /5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%) /2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%) /8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%) /8-1 (89%)



Other than Tmac, Lebron/Wade are below .500 with HCA vs teams that won 50+ games.

Avenged
09-11-2011, 08:46 PM
I didn't even go into the number 4 player list cause I thought Dirk had that for sure.....Don't worry, if Dirk can't get the respect he derves on a website, he can damn sure get some in the REAL world,
I love Dirk he brought so much to the city that I was raised then and he will forever be known in Dallas as "The one who brought redemption"
The man has been with the same team for over 10 years, and never gave up and he can't even get what he deserves on a website?
PSD is a joke man.

I'd say Dirk is getting some solid amount of respect. He's going to be voted in as the #5th player in the game, while the past 2 times we've had these polls he was 7 and 8. You can't really jump up a player for the #1 spot just because he won a championship unless you use JB's reasoning. 5 is a good spot for him, even #4 would have been good for him but cp3 and him are pretty close.

naps
09-11-2011, 08:56 PM
It is unfortunate that somebody who knows so much about basketball fails to get it. Whatever though, keeps the debates entertaining... and frustrating.

Dirk at 5 is a solid choice.

KD next.

Then Kobe just ahead of Rose.

My choice? Lebron, Cp3, Wade, Howard, Dirk/Durant, Kobe.

But this is a good list.


true. Copy and paste senseless stuff is the way to go for him. You can see what I mean.

Bruno
09-11-2011, 09:02 PM
Dirk. He was too dominant during the 2011 playoffs to be kept out of our top five. IMO it'd be an injustice to his personal dominance.

Hey look, I can vote for Kobe next without contradicting my pervious posts, sweet. :guns: :laugh2:

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 09:13 PM
When you can't even win with a proven winner as the man already and two top 15 players in the league in there prime with one being top 3 as well and then get outscored by a guy coming off the bench in the finals :speechless:then what does that say about you as a player? That does not show anything of you being even close to the best especially when you had HCA.

Lets take a look here at some all time greats records with HCA vs 50+ win teams and vs 50 and less



HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Russell: 10-0 / 12-1
Shaq: 11-2 / 12-2
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1
Duncan: 13-4 / 8-0
Jabbar: 11-3 / 23-2
Olajuwon: 4-0 / 5-2
Bird: 10-6 / 14-1
Wilt: 4-3 / 9-2
Tmac: 0-2 / 0-0
Kobe: 18-2 / 6-0
Lebron: 1-3/ 8-0
Wade: 1-2/ 6-0



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%) /5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%) /2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%) /8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%) /8-1 (89%)



Other than Tmac, Lebron/Wade are below .500 with HCA vs teams that won 50+ games.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

naps
09-11-2011, 09:53 PM
Swashcuff, I feel the same way.

Hellcrooner
09-11-2011, 11:20 PM
Btw, Dirk fans should respect him today.
He has played his Last Game in Fiba with Germany, they are out and out of the olympics so he retires from the team.

LakersIn5
09-11-2011, 11:39 PM
its so funny that dirk would not even be top 5 if we talked rankings before the playoffs started but just because they won the ship then it automatically makes him top 5. had the mavs not won the championship would dirk still be top 5? but not winning the ship wont make him less talented than he does winning the ship.

tredigs
09-11-2011, 11:41 PM
its so funny that dirk would not even be top 5 if we talked rankings before the playoffs started but just because they won the ship then it automatically makes him top 5. had the mavs not won the championship would dirk still be top 5? but not winning the ship wont make him less talented than he does winning the ship.

I would say that taking a team on your shoulders and leading them to a title over multiple stacked teams is a fairly good reason to boost up your overall rankings a spot or two. In fact, I can't think of any better reason.

But maybe that's just me.

ragee
09-11-2011, 11:43 PM
Voted for Dirk. I still believe he should be number 4 but I not too bummed about it. I guess CP3 had a solid argument there... #6 would be interesting...

Dolfan305
09-12-2011, 12:00 AM
1-Lebron
2-Howard
3-Wade
4-Dirk
5-Paul

IndiansFan337
09-12-2011, 12:05 AM
Dirk Nowitzki, but couldn't argue with anyone voting for Durant.

Raph12
09-12-2011, 01:25 AM
Kevin Durant

Baller1
09-12-2011, 02:27 AM
Again, Durant.

LTBaByyy
09-12-2011, 03:39 AM
Next should be Kobe, he still put up great numbers and still got something left

penny421
09-12-2011, 09:59 AM
When you can't even win with a proven winner as the man already and two top 15 players in the league in there prime with one being top 3 as well and then get outscored by a guy coming off the bench in the finals :speechless:then what does that say about you as a player? That does not show anything of you being even close to the best especially when you had HCA.

Lets take a look here at some all time greats records with HCA vs 50+ win teams and vs 50 and less



HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Russell: 10-0 / 12-1
Shaq: 11-2 / 12-2
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1
Duncan: 13-4 / 8-0
Jabbar: 11-3 / 23-2
Olajuwon: 4-0 / 5-2
Bird: 10-6 / 14-1
Wilt: 4-3 / 9-2
Tmac: 0-2 / 0-0
Kobe: 18-2 / 6-0
Lebron: 1-3/ 8-0
Wade: 1-2/ 6-0



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%) /5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%) /2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%) /8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%) /8-1 (89%)



Other than Tmac, Lebron/Wade are below .500 with HCA vs teams that won 50+ games.

Stop those ridiculous copy and paste dude.It makes no sense.
The bulls have a record of 24-0 when the have HCA not Jordan,the celtics have a record of 22-1 when they have HCA not Russell etc..
What you're posting is a TEAM indicator.

Tell me something,what if the superstar played extremely well in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates didn't show up and they lost.
Is it fair to blame the superstar for that???
e.g:
The Cavaliers lost in the ECF against the Magic(2009),they had HCA then.
Lebron averaged 38.5 points,8.3 rebounds,8 assists on 49% shooting that series.
The Mavericks in 2010 lost in the first round as the 2nd seed.
But their superstar averaged 26.7 points and 8.2 rebounds with a PER of 28.3 and a WS/48 of 0.291,64.3% TS and a ORtg of 130.

What if the superstar struggled in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates carried the load and the team won.
Should we give the credit for the superstar or for his teammates?

The records you're posting are good to rank teams not players.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 10:20 AM
Stop those ridiculous copy and paste dude.It makes no sense.
The bulls have a record of 24-0 when the have HCA not Jordan,the celtics have a record of 22-1 when they have HCA not Russell etc..
What you're posting is a TEAM indicator.

Tell me something,what if the superstar played extremely well in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates didn't show up and they lost.
Is it fair to blame the superstar for that???
e.g:
The Cavaliers lost in the ECF against the Magic(2009),they had HCA then.
Lebron averaged 38.5 points,8.3 rebounds,8 assists on 49% shooting that series.
The Mavericks in 2010 lost in the first round as the 2nd seed.
But their superstar averaged 26.7 points and 8.2 rebounds with a PER of 28.3 and a WS/48 of 0.291,64.3% TS and a ORtg of 130.

What if the superstar struggled in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates carried the load and the team won.
Should we give the credit for the superstar or for his teammates?

The records you're posting are good to rank teams not players.

:nod:

Dirk's entire career he's been seen by the mis informed as a playoff choker. When that couldn't be further from the truth. Fact of the matter is. Dirk's teammates made it a routine to disappear come playoff time leaving him with a heavier burden to carry. Something he did at his very best.

His basis for gauging an individual's worth is as horrible as it gets. What's worst however is he may never reply to your post. He'll most likely ignore it. Whenever his reasoning comes into question JB just runs the other way.

Ebbs
09-12-2011, 10:47 AM
Dirk falling to 5 is dissapointing after that post season. But fine no further than 5.

KD next.

THE MTL
09-12-2011, 01:01 PM
Is Dirk better than anyone in the top 4 listed? UMMM NO!

Put Dirk on the Hornets in place of Chris Paul and that team doesnt even make the playoffs. Lets not forget, CP3 singlehandedly beat the Lakers in game 1.

And people sleeping on the Dirk's supporting cast. But Tyson Chandler, jason kidd, jason terry, shawn marion, brendan haywood, all put in some serious work during the championship run.

Dirk at #5 is fine.

Im shocked Kobe didnt go Top 3. I thought the popularity and fan base alone would be enough lol

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 01:10 PM
Stop those ridiculous copy and paste dude.It makes no sense.
The bulls have a record of 24-0 when the have HCA not Jordan,the celtics have a record of 22-1 when they have HCA not Russell etc..
What you're posting is a TEAM indicator.

Tell me something,what if the superstar played extremely well in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates didn't show up and they lost.
Is it fair to blame the superstar for that???
e.g:
The Cavaliers lost in the ECF against the Magic(2009),they had HCA then.
Lebron averaged 38.5 points,8.3 rebounds,8 assists on 49% shooting that series.
The Mavericks in 2010 lost in the first round as the 2nd seed.
But their superstar averaged 26.7 points and 8.2 rebounds with a PER of 28.3 and a WS/48 of 0.291,64.3% TS and a ORtg of 130.

What if the superstar struggled in a series where his team had HCA but his teammates carried the load and the team won.
Should we give the credit for the superstar or for his teammates?

The records you're posting are good to rank teams not players.

Bulls were 24-0 in series with HCA because of Jordan. Celtics were 22-1 in series because of Russell.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)

[quote]
1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.


Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

[http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.



In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit in 2008 for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

In 2009 the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.

Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

SteBO
09-12-2011, 01:13 PM
Bulls were 24-0 in series with HCA because of Jordan. Celtics were 22-1 in series because of Russell.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)



[QUOTE]
Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

[http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )




In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit in 2008 for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

In 2009 the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.

Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis
This proves what?

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 01:14 PM
Is Dirk better than anyone in the top 4 listed? UMMM NO!

Put Dirk on the Hornets in place of Chris Paul and that team doesnt even make the playoffs. Lets not forget, CP3 singlehandedly beat the Lakers in game 1.

And people sleeping on the Dirk's supporting cast. But Tyson Chandler, jason kidd, jason terry, shawn marion, brendan haywood, all put in some serious work during the championship run.

Dirk at #5 is fine.

Im shocked Kobe didnt go Top 3. I thought the popularity and fan base alone would be enough lol

None of those other 4 won a title with no other allstar on there team and did so without HCA. One dude got bounced in round 1 and wasn't even the leading scorer on his team during the season when he was in his prime. The other 3 lost with HCA to teams clearly inferior.

Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs become first team in NBA history

To defeat three teams that each had a

ALL-NBA 1st team player and ALL-NBA 2nd team player:

Kobe and Gasol
Durant and Westbrook
LeBron and Wade


So yeah Dirk was clearly the best last year.


Mavs were 2-7 without him. Was the only allstar on his team. Beat the 2x defending champions who had a higher SRS rating, better offensive and defense and beat a team that had 3 allstars with two of which are considered routinely top 3 in the league and did so without HCA.

Dallas

57-25,
Coach: Rick Carlisle (57-25)

PTS/G: 100.2 (11th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 96.0 (10th of 30)
SRS: 4.41 (8th of 30) ? Pace: 91.3 (18th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.7 (8th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 105.0 (8th of 30)
Expected W-L: 53-29 (8th of 30)



Miami

58-24, 1st in NBA Southeast Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Erik Spoelstra (58-24)

PTS/G: 102.1 (8th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 94.6 (6th of 30)
SRS: 6.76 (1st of 30) ? Pace: 90.9 (20th of 30)
Off Rtg: 111.7 (3rd of 30) ? Def Rtg: 103.5 (5th of 30)
Expected W-L: 61-21 (2nd of 30)


Miami had a higher SRS rating, Allowed Fewer PPG, Averaged more PPG, had a higher Expected W-L, had a higher Offensive and Defensive Rating and the Mavs were missing 3 players in Caron Butler, Rodrigue Beaubois and Brendan Haywood in the Finals.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-heat


Don't give me the Dwight had no support either because they won by 25 points in one game and he only scored 8 points.

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=JordansBulls;19162344]Bulls were 24-0 in series with HCA because of Jordan. Celtics were 22-1 in series because of Russell.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)




This proves what?

How bad a cast Dwight had that year.

Chronz
09-12-2011, 02:00 PM
Oh god more of that erroneous copy and paste BS, let me get this straight, its somehow Brons fault that Dwight looked like a vintage Shaq against his pathetic frontline and shrunk against Pau/Bynum in the Finals. Surely that had nothing to do with matchups. Which BTW I remember you admitting played a huge role, remember when you said those Cavs were built to beat the Celtics and built to beat the Magic when they added Shaq. Also you neglect to mention that the Magic were insanely hot from 3 during that stretch. Sometimes teams catch fire, and catching fire from deep is basically like having a pitcher heat up right before the WS. It can take your team to a higher level of play.

Anyways all youve proven is how awesome Bron is, citing his teams SRS when you look at the talent compared to teams that have won at such a rate is an accomplishment on its own. Its not like Bron had a team that could win 5 less games without him ala MJ. He took what was basically a last place team to contention. Congrats on helping his case

Chronz
09-12-2011, 02:05 PM
Don't give me the Dwight had no support either because they won by 25 points in one game and he only scored 8 points.

wut?

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 02:18 PM
wut?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201104260ORL.html

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Oh god more of that erroneous copy and paste BS, let me get this straight, its somehow Brons fault that Dwight looked like a vintage Shaq against his pathetic frontline and shrunk against Pau/Bynum in the Finals. Surely that had nothing to do with matchups. Which BTW I remember you admitting played a huge role, remember when you said those Cavs were built to beat the Celtics and built to beat the Magic when they added Shaq. Also you neglect to mention that the Magic were insanely hot from 3 during that stretch. Sometimes teams catch fire, and catching fire from deep is basically like having a pitcher heat up right before the WS. It can take your team to a higher level of play.

Anyways all youve proven is how awesome Bron is, citing his teams SRS when you look at the talent compared to teams that have won at such a rate is an accomplishment on its own. Its not like Bron had a team that could win 5 less games without him ala MJ. He took what was basically a last place team to contention. Congrats on helping his case

I never said he wasn't awesome, but people act like the Magic was much better or that Dwight had more talent when that is not the case.

You gotta remember that Lebron has always played with Proven winners. He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man. He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man.

Also you gotta remember in this era one man teams have been leading teams to the best record in the league and teams with no stars as well. 2005 Pistons, 2007 Mavs, 2009 Cavs/Magic, 2011 Bulls to name a few.

mekedubs
09-12-2011, 02:30 PM
I would say that taking a team on your shoulders and leading them to a title over multiple stacked teams is a fairly good reason to boost up your overall rankings a spot or two. In fact, I can't think of any better reason.

But maybe that's just me.

True, but what does that say about CP3, LeBron and Howard, who have not won championships but are all in the top 4? LeBron IS on a stacked team and got beat by the Mavs, so what I'm trying to see is what warrants a player to being the best in the league? To me personally, I'm surprised that Kobe isn't top 2 or 3... Say what you want about stats and all of the other guys on this list, but Kobe is still, even at this point of his career, the most feared player in the league...

Chronz
09-12-2011, 02:36 PM
I never said he wasn't awesome, but people act like the Magic was much better or that Dwight had more talent when that is not the case.
Of course you didnt say that, that would make you a ******. What I was implying was that you were faulting Bron for something that should be praised.


You gotta remember that Lebron has always played with Proven winners.
Here comes the part where you list players and their accomplishments as if they pertain in any way to the talent he had on the floor during those moments.


He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man.
The same Ben Wallace who was waived by the Suns, the same Ben Wallace who was fresh off a broken foot and was noticeably less effective. He won the title 5 years prior but its funny how you refer to him as "the man" what happened to valuing Finals MVP? What happened to "he didnt even lead his team in scoring" hell Ben didnt even lead his team in like 5/6/7th in the scoring department. Anyways, ask the Bulls what they thought of Ben and his deal.


He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man.
Yes Im familiar with their names, you however are unfamiliar with their games at the time. You can fault Bron for Dallas, but definitely not any other series before then. And even in the Dallas series, its hardly a damning mark on his career.


Also you gotta remember in this era one man teams have been leading teams to the best record in the league and teams with no stars as well.
Too simplistic for my liking, teams with multiple stars have lost more regular season games but that alone does not determine who has the better roster support.


2005 Pistons, 2007 Mavs, 2009 Cavs/Magic, 2011 Bulls to name a few.
LMFAO Only you could refer to the 2005 Pistons (widely recognized as one of the greatest collective efforts) as a 1 man team.

tcav701
09-12-2011, 02:41 PM
True, but what does that say about CP3, LeBron and Howard, who have not won championships but are all in the top 4? LeBron IS on a stacked team and got beat by the Mavs, so what I'm trying to see is what warrants a player to being the best in the league? To me personally, I'm surprised that Kobe isn't top 2 or 3... Say what you want about stats and all of the other guys on this list, but Kobe is still, even at this point of his career, the most feared player in the league...

I agree this vote confuses me because everyone has different ideas of what the criteria is.

For me, championships are team accomplishments and individual career achievements. For example, HOF resumes and when ranking the best of all time are when championships come into play for me.

I look as this vote as who I would want on my team for 1 game if it were played today. That's the best way I can vote for who the best player is. So far, the list looks good to me and I have no problem at all here with Dirk at 5 but IMO Durant is the more versitale/explosive player.

Chronz
09-12-2011, 02:42 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201104260ORL.html

I meant to ask what that had to do with your post? Its like you talked about Bron throughout but mentioned Dwight at the end.

Still Im glad you did, lets review shall we.


In 2009 Dwight made the Finals despite not having HCA. Flash forward to 2011, Dwight has IMPROVED as a player (if you deny this your hopeless) and owns HCA but loses in R1? Explain that contradiction, how could Dwight end up as both a better player while playing alongside better teammates (theoretically by your method) yet lose in R.1?

Ill tell you why, because 1 man, no matter how great, requires assistance. The difference between the Magic then and now isnt that Dwight is worse, its that his teammates didnt perform as well as they did the season prior. Mostly due to the massive fluctuation of their 3pt shooting. Which brings me back to my original point, 3pt shooting can act as a wild card. There was a study done on the volatility of the Magics offense, since hot/cold streaks are a natural part of the game, you would conclude that a team that relies so heavily on such an inconsistent aspect of the game would, in turn see similar deviations from the mean in their offensive efficiency. Sure enough, the Magic, more than any other great offensive team, saw their efficiency rise and fall all over the place.


-------------

And another thing, 1 game doesnt prove ****. The Magic won without Dwight even playing in the game the year when they made the Finals.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 02:57 PM
If PSD were to somehow disable pasting I wouldn't how would JB survive? All he's doing in copying and pasting the same things that's been said over and over and been proven wrong on every occasion.

Dwight scored 8 points and his team won the game so that must mean he has a good supporting case. What in heaven's name is that? What kind of roster analysis is that?

CP3 had just as good a supporting cast as Dirk and wasn't a good player because he didn't lead his team in scoring.

Rose is better than CP3 ever was because he "carried" a team with no all stars to the best record in the league and to the conference semis.

etc

That's JB's assessment of a player's worth and a roster analysis. I'm sorry but the only time I can take him seriously is when he's talking about MJ. Even then he's copies and pastes a LOT.

naps
09-12-2011, 03:23 PM
I never said he wasn't awesome, but people act like the Magic was much better or that Dwight had more talent when that is not the case.

You gotta remember that Lebron has always played with Proven winners. He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man. He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man.

Also you gotta remember in this era one man teams have been leading teams to the best record in the league and teams with no stars as well. 2005 Pistons, 2007 Mavs, 2009 Cavs/Magic, 2011 Bulls to name a few.


JB, wtf does winning championships millions years ago have to do in 2010? Ben Wallace, Shaq were dinosaurs. Like WTF is your point seriously?

If you can't come up with something that make sense and without copy-paste BS then you seriously need to STFU.

juno10
09-12-2011, 03:24 PM
did he just say ben wallace won a title as the man and 2005 pistons were a one man led team.

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 03:34 PM
did he just say ben wallace won a title as the man and 2005 pistons were a one man led team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/all_star.html

2005 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2004 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2003 NBA 1. Ben Wallace

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 03:35 PM
JB, wtf does winning championships millions years ago have to do in 2010? Ben Wallace, Shaq were dinosaurs. Like WTF is your point seriously?

If you can't come up with something that make sense and without copy-paste BS then you seriously need to STFU.

It means they were proven winners and champions. Which means a hell of a lot come playoff time.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 03:38 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/all_star.html

2005 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2004 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2003 NBA 1. Ben Wallace

:laugh2:

I can't believe he's actually attempt to defend that. JB you can't be serious. Do you know what it mean's to be the man?

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 03:40 PM
It means they were proven winners and champions. Which means a hell of a lot come playoff time.

If they can't bring anything to the table other than experience what "hell of a lot" does that equate to. Shaq barely being able to play 20 mins per game and being a shell of a shell of his former self does nothing to help you come playoff time in terms of production.

Ben Wallace? Did you even watch the games? Really did you?

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 03:50 PM
You guys knows what's funny? JB always tries to use total WS (see his argument for Clyde in the greatest players of all time thread) when trying to gauge who was the "man" on a team. However since Ben is 2nd in terms of WS and 4th in terms of WS/48 he takes another route. And goes with ASG voting. :pity:

The man has no reasoning. He goes with whatever fits each instance, and holds that as gold. The man on a championship team doesn't need team help to defend the opposing team's best player when all he does is play D and defend. Is that not the reason he is the "man" in your eyes JB because of his D but yet still he needed help on Shaq and Shaq still got his own averaging 27 and 11 in those finals.

JB we will all have respect for you'd just own up and be a "man" and admit that you were wrong in calling Big Ben the man of that team.

Baller1
09-12-2011, 03:54 PM
I think it's ridiculous that KD will not be considered a top 5 player, but then again the five above him are all worthy candidates as well... Whatever I guess.

I'm gonna call ******** though if Kobe or Rose is voted ahead of him.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 03:57 PM
I think it's ridiculous that KD will not be considered a top 5 player, but then again the five above him are all worthy candidates as well... Whatever I guess.

I'm gonna call ******** though if Kobe or Rose is voted ahead of him.

Give us your reasoning for KD ahead of Kobe and D. Rose.

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 03:57 PM
You guys knows what's funny? JB always tries to use total WS (see his argument for Clyde in the greatest players of all time thread) when trying to gauge who was the "man" on a team. However since Ben is 2nd in terms of WS and 4th in terms of WS/48 he takes another route. And goes with ASG voting. :pity:

The man has no reasoning. He goes with whatever fits each instance, and holds that as gold. The man on a championship team doesn't need team help to defend the opposing team's best player when all he does is play D and defend. Is that not the reason he is the "man" in your eyes JB because of his D but yet still he needed help on Shaq and Shaq still got his own averaging 27 and 11 in those finals.

JB we will all have respect for you'd just own up and be a "man" and admit that you were wrong in calling Big Ben the man of that team.

He wasn't the man for scoring or carrying a team like most guys are considered, his role was similar to Bill Russell's on the Celtics except the reason I called Wallace the man is that he was the only proven guy on the team prior to the team winning anything. He was the face of the Pistons at the time and the only allstar. This is why I said he was the man on the team.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 04:04 PM
He wasn't the man for scoring or carrying a team like most guys are considered, his role was similar to Bill Russell's on the Celtics except the reason I called Wallace the man is that he was the only proven guy on the team prior to the team winning anything. He was the face of the Pistons at the time and the only allstar. This is why I said he was the man on the team.

Russell however while not a great scorer was the sole reason that his Celts D for being so great. He never needed any help on that end of the floor when guarding the bigger, stronger and more athletic Wilt. He had his role on D and played it the way the man would and should. By himself. Ben when guarding the likes of Shaq needed help.

Also according to your prior reasoning for calling someone the "man" Russell also lead his team in WS damn near every season in the league. Russell was indeed the man. Ben Wallace was a star player on a complete team.

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Russell however while not a great scorer was the sole reason that his Celts D for being so great. He never needed any help on that end of the floor when guarding the bigger, stronger and more athletic Wilt. He had his role on D and played it the way the man would and should. By himself. Ben when guarding the likes of Shaq needed help.

Also according to your prior reasoning for calling someone the "man" Russell also lead his team in WS damn near every season in the league. Russell was indeed the man. Ben Wallace was a star player on a complete team.

Wallace was the sole reason the Pistons d was good as well, no one else on that team was known as a good defender. Also he had already won 2 DPOY awards at that time when the Pistons won in 2004 and then he won it in 2005 and 2006.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 04:21 PM
Wallace was the sole reason the Pistons d was good as well, no one else on that team was known as a good defender. Also he had already won 2 DPOY awards at that time when the Pistons won in 2004 and then he won it in 2005 and 2006.

So you mean to tell me that neither Rasheed nor Taysaun Prince nor Lindsey Hunter were good defenders? Interesting.

You also ignored the fact when I said Russell didn't need help on Wilt. Wallace needed help on Shaq. How can you be the man when you can't take your man one on one?

DLeeicious
09-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Wallace was the sole reason the Pistons d was good as well, no one else on that team was known as a good defender. Also he had already won 2 DPOY awards at that time when the Pistons won in 2004 and then he won it in 2005 and 2006.

Not sure what you're arguing about but the bold has me scratching my head a little. Ben was their best defender, yes, but how can you say the other guys aren't good defenders? Rasheed? Billups? Rip? Prince? None of them known as good defenders?

DLeeicious
09-12-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm gonna call ******** though if Kobe or Rose is voted ahead of him.

I think a case can be made for all three of them. Personally I would go with: KD, then Rose, then Kobe at this point in their careers but there is a valid argument for all three as with lots of arguments that are made about who is better between different players with different roles at different positions.

JordansBulls
09-12-2011, 04:50 PM
So you mean to tell me that neither Rasheed nor Taysaun Prince nor Lindsey Hunter were good defenders? Interesting.

You also ignored the fact when I said Russell didn't need help on Wilt. Wallace needed help on Shaq. How can you be the man when you can't take your man one on one?

Haha. This is funny. Wilt averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on Russell for his career while when Russell was in the league he averaged 34 ppg and 24 rpg on everyone else for his career.

SteBO
09-12-2011, 04:53 PM
I'm with baller. I think KD/Rose is arguable, but Durant is definitely ahead of Kobe at this point.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 04:59 PM
Haha. This is funny. Wilt averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on Russell for his career while when Russell was in the league he averaged 34 ppg and 24 rpg on everyone else for his career.

It's funny right, you're a part of the RPOY project so you know very well that their were many instances where Russell would allow Wilt to have his own way and then when push came to shove he'd do the pushing and shoving and Wilt wouldn't have it that easy any more.

Did Ben do that to Shaq?

Point is either way JB, he guarded him ONE on ONE for every single minute of those 143 games in which they were on the floor against one another.

Avenged
09-12-2011, 05:09 PM
I think it's ridiculous that KD will not be considered a top 5 player, but then again the five above him are all worthy candidates as well... Whatever I guess.

I'm gonna call ******** though if Kobe or Rose is voted ahead of him.

Why? It's not as far fetched as you may think.

da ThRONe
09-12-2011, 05:14 PM
I think it's funny people are trying to knock Paul for not leading his team in scoring. He's a PG he's not supposed to!

Chronz
09-12-2011, 05:15 PM
It means they were proven winners and champions. Which means a hell of a lot come playoff time.

False, Ben has actually had an underrated decline phase but hes clearly not an impact player at that point. Even so, having a proven winner as your role player can be useful but it does not offset having a proven choker like Mo as your 2nd best player.



did he just say ben wallace won a title as the man and 2005 pistons were a one man led team.
I couldnt believe that one either.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 05:17 PM
I couldnt believe that one either.

Take a read of his reasoning's afterwards then. He tries to justify by comparing Wallace to Russell.

Chronz
09-12-2011, 05:25 PM
I read that, I dont entirely agree with your assessment. Ben Wallace guarded Shaq 1 on 1 as much as anyone has ever guarded a post player 1 on 1, both in 2004 and 2006, I dont remember 2005 anymore for some reason. I do remember that Elden Cambell was the best defender on Shaq in his later years but Ben Wallace held his own. Shaq got his #'s but he did so without opening up the offense for anyone else. But it must be said this was post PEAK Shaq, in his prime Shaq would have averaged 40 on such a defense.

On the flip side, the Celtics practically invented help defense, of the games I have, Russ doesnt have a consistent game plan and I remember reading plenty about his mentality (however contrived it was) of how to defend Chamberlain, in fact I cant remember if this was for Russ vs Wilt or Pettit but one quote sticks out "The smartest thing coach Russell ever did, was take himself off Wilt" and he would actually be the helper.

This is the kind of strategy Ben had on Duncan but rarely Shaq. Though he did have ton of help when he rested and youve got to think being flanked with so much length was always in the back of Shaqs mind.

NYKnicks4511
09-12-2011, 05:26 PM
Why is Bynum on this poll ???

Anyways Dirk is probably the 2nd best player in the league so by the associative property the #5 best player in the league is Carmelo.

Bruno
09-12-2011, 05:43 PM
This is the kind of strategy Ben had on Duncan but rarely Shaq. Though he did have ton of help when he rested and youve got to think being flanked with so much length was always in the back of Shaqs mind.

Do you think that was just because of the size difference between Duncan and Shaq? Regarding Wallaces approach.

Chronz
09-12-2011, 05:51 PM
Do you think that was just because of the size difference between Duncan and Shaq? Regarding Wallaces approach.
Pretty much but it sounds odd when you consider Duncan was smaller than Shaq, so you would assume that the bigger Wallace (Sheed) would guard Shaq and Ben would guard Duncan but it simply came down to how the 2 pivots liked to score.

Generally speaking Sheed and McDyess were better post defenders than Ben, specifically against the length of a Duncan (BTW I remember Antawn just clowning Ben one year), Sheed and Duncan are of similar builds and Ben was a much better helper than a 1 on 1 guy so it played to his strengths as well. The result was Duncan had one of the most mortal series of his career, so much so that Manu nearly won the MVP.
Shaq was a different animal though, one that Ben could contend with and really use his strength against. He didnt have to worry about too many counters, particularly with a less nimble Shaq, all he had to focus on was pushing Shaq off the blocks.

naps
09-12-2011, 05:52 PM
It means they were proven winners and champions. Which means a hell of a lot come playoff time.

So we can bring Bill Russell, Jordan, Hakeem back today and let play with Derrick Rose. And if they can't win then Derrick Rose would certainly be worst player of all time according to your logic? You absolutely make no sense at all.

naps
09-12-2011, 05:55 PM
You guys knows what's funny? JB always tries to use total WS (see his argument for Clyde in the greatest players of all time thread) when trying to gauge who was the "man" on a team. However since Ben is 2nd in terms of WS and 4th in terms of WS/48 he takes another route. And goes with ASG voting. :pity:

The man has no reasoning. He goes with whatever fits each instance, and holds that as gold. The man on a championship team doesn't need team help to defend the opposing team's best player when all he does is play D and defend. Is that not the reason he is the "man" in your eyes JB because of his D but yet still he needed help on Shaq and Shaq still got his own averaging 27 and 11 in those finals.

JB we will all have respect for you'd just own up and be a "man" and admit that you were wrong in calling Big Ben the man of that team.

Hahaha, pretty sure he doesn't even know what the hell he's talking about. Like I said before, he'll keep ignoring what you are saying and go with what supports his case for that instant. Then go to another thread he's contradicting himself. LMAO!

naps
09-12-2011, 06:01 PM
Wallace was the sole reason the Pistons d was good as well, no one else on that team was known as a good defender. Also he had already won 2 DPOY awards at that time when the Pistons won in 2004 and then he won it in 2005 and 2006.

SMH...

That Pistons team was probably one of the greatest defensive teams of all time. Billups, Prince, Wallace were all ELITE defenders. This bolded statement above is beyond pathetic.

Chronz
09-12-2011, 06:08 PM
SMH...

That Pistons team was probably one of the greatest defensive teams of all time. Billups, Prince, Wallace were all ELITE defenders. This bolded statement above is beyond pathetic.

True, but there is something to be said for being the anchor of that defense. Once he got to Detroit he completely changed their defensive identity.

juno10
09-12-2011, 06:14 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/all_star.html

2005 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2004 NBA 1. Ben Wallace
2003 NBA 1. Ben Wallace

so basically carlos boozer = rose because they have the same amout of allstar game appearances.

SportsFanatic10
09-12-2011, 06:47 PM
i just read through this whole thread and i can't believe some of the ridiculous posts JB has made. i honestly don't know whether to laugh or feel badly for him after reading some of them. some very poor reasoning in those posts to say the least. although it shouldn't be all that surprising since i remember reading similar posts by him ever since the season ended.

SteBO
09-12-2011, 07:15 PM
True, but there is something to be said for being the anchor of that defense. Once he got to Detroit he completely changed their defensive identity.
He enhanced their defense to an even greater degree than it already was. The addition of Rasheed Wallace mid-season in 2004 was helped that side of the floor as well. But Billups, Prince, Rasheed, and Lindsey Hunter were all very good defenders then. I don't see how anyone can say that Ben Wallace was the only good defensive player on that team.

bholly
09-12-2011, 07:15 PM
I can't even follow this argument anymore. What the hell is going on?

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 07:19 PM
I can't even follow this argument anymore. What the hell is going on?

JB copied and pasted and all hell broke loose. Basically he said LeBron had Shaq and Ben Wallace and still couldn't win with them. He said that Ben Wallace won as the "man" in his prime.

29$JerZ
09-12-2011, 07:29 PM
I think it's ridiculous that KD will not be considered a top 5 player, but then again the five above him are all worthy candidates as well... Whatever I guess.

I'm gonna call ******** though if Kobe or Rose is voted ahead of him.

Seeing as how he best SF,C, SG, PG have been placed as the top 4 it really isn't hard to believe the best PF is going to be ranked top 5. Not really a Diss to Durant IMO. If Melo or Rose get more vote ls than Durant than we will have a problem.

29$JerZ
09-12-2011, 07:33 PM
JB copied and pasted and all hell broke loose. Basically he said LeBron had Shaq and Ben Wallace and still couldn't win with them. He said that Ben Wallace won as the "man" in his prime.

How are you the man on a team that was so balanced all around? Lol
Isn't thy why there title run was so impressive? They didn't have 1 man, they had 5. That's really shocking to read

b@llhog24
09-12-2011, 08:32 PM
Seeing as how he best SF,C, SG, PG have been placed as the top 4 it really isn't hard to believe the best PF is going to be ranked top 5. Not really a Diss to Durant IMO. If Melo or Rose get more vote ls than Durant than we will have a problem.

For Melo to be on the board, Durant has to leave.

Hawkeye15
09-12-2011, 08:53 PM
didn't get to vote, wasn't paying attention. But I agree with the results.

29$JerZ
09-12-2011, 09:11 PM
For Melo to be on the board, Durant has to leave.

Your point?

naps
09-12-2011, 10:03 PM
True, but there is something to be said for being the anchor of that defense. Once he got to Detroit he completely changed their defensive identity.

You didn't pay attention to JB statement. He said Ben Wallace was the only good defender they had and they was the only reason there were a great defensive team.

naps
09-12-2011, 10:09 PM
JB copied and pasted and all hell broke loose. Basically he said LeBron had Shaq and Ben Wallace and still couldn't win with them. He said that Ben Wallace won as the "man" in his prime.

JB might as well be the most hysterical poster of PSD history. At least I haven't seen anyone with as many ridiculous claims thus far. Not in real life, not in internet forums. That tells you something.

itsripcity32
09-12-2011, 10:34 PM
lmfao at bulls fans picking rose

b@llhog24
09-12-2011, 10:54 PM
Your point?

I'm not sure, but I thought you were implying that if Melo got more votes

than KD it would be a problem.