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View Full Version : Am I wrong for saying, Kobe has been out his prime for 8 years now



lilojmayo
09-09-2011, 10:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-41P9rU1Wc 1:15 min damn Kobe.

Kobe Bryant 2003 Season: 30.0 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg 2.2 spg .8 blocks 45.1 FG% 38.3 3pt% 84.3% FG

Idc about the numbers though. I have been watching Kobe film lately and it is painfully clear to me that, we are 8 years removed from seeing " Kobe the Black Mamba Assassin".

What seperated Kobe that year from any other Kobe year, was he was a total beast. He was able to create insane space moreso than anyother year. He was able to still blow by opponents at will. ( Post 2004 wasnt the case). He had his tough shot making ability in grained in him, while still being in his athletic peak. Kobe defensively was just as impressive, he was def a legit all nba defensive player ( unlike now).

Let's not forget that was Eagle Colorado year. Dude hated the world, and played like it. Was a f*cking soldier on the court. It was like he was going to war on and off the court.

30.0 ppg. To me that's the most impressive part of his run. He was able to do that with Shaq whoring away 27.5 ppg up for grabs. Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in 2006. Put it together folks. Kobe was better in 03, without Shaq Kobe probably averages 35-38 ppg that year, and would have ended when was Kobe's prime.

Well damn Kobe in the month of Feb that year when Shaq goes down to injury, Kobe only confirms that hypothesis.

Kobe Bryant 2003 Feb: 40.6 ppg 4.9 rpg 3.6 apg 2.6 spg 47.2% FG 42.9% 3pt 84.6 % FT

R.I.P 2003 Kobe Bryant. That was when Kobe was Kobe "Black Mamba".

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 10:40 AM
You do realize there is a difference between peak and prime and your eyes may be deceiving you right?

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 10:41 AM
Kobe Bryant 2003 Season: 30.0 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg 2.2 spg .8 blocks 45.1 FG% 38.3 3pt% 84.3% FG

Idc about the numbers though.
30.0 ppg. To me that's the most impressive part of his run. He was able to do that with Shaq whoring away 27.5 ppg up for grabs. Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in 2006. Put it together folks. Kobe was better in 03, without Shaq Kobe probably averages 35-38 ppg that year, and would have ended when was Kobe's prime.

Kobe Bryant 2003 Feb: 40.6 ppg 4.9 rpg 3.6 apg 2.6 spg 47.2% FG 42.9% 3pt 84.6 % FT


Am I the only one he sees anything ironic is all of this?

ShakeN'Bake
09-09-2011, 10:48 AM
That seems more like a peak. Prime generally surrounds the peak.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 10:52 AM
Kobe Bryant January 2006: 43.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 4.1 apg 1.7 spg FG% 47.1 3FG% 39.7 FT% 89.7.

He was more efficient and scored more.

You can't say Kobe averages 35-38 without Shaq. There is nothing factual to support that. He went on a tear for a month but that does not mean that he'd be able to keep that level of production over an 82 game season.

mightybosstone
09-09-2011, 10:57 AM
Couldn't you make the argument that Kobe put up those numbers BECAUSE he played with Shaq? One month is not a large enough sample size to prove anything. And say what you will about 02-03 Kobe, but 05-06 Kobe posted a superior PPG, TS% and PER, and 06-07 Kobe posted some pretty impressive numbers, as well.

And like everyone else has already said, you're looking at peak vs. prime.

lilojmayo
09-09-2011, 10:57 AM
Kobe Bryant January 2006: 43.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 4.1 apg 1.7 spg FG% 47.1 3FG% 39.7 FT% 89.7.

He was more efficient and scored more.

You can't say Kobe averages 35-38 without Shaq. There is nothing factual to support that. He went on a tear for a month but that does not mean that he'd be able to keep that level of production over an 82 game season.

thats a good point. Could Kobe maintain it through 82 games. I dont see why he couldn't. As you mentioned he did in 06, but at the same time in 06 Kobe knew he was " the man" In 03 he wasn't. To me he was better but Shaq factor and presence was still there

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 11:00 AM
thats a good point. Could Kobe maintain it through 82 games. I dont see why he couldn't. As you mentioned he did in 06, but at the same time in 06 Kobe knew he was " the man" In 03 he wasn't. To me he was better but Shaq factor and presence was still there

Because he's a human being. No one is perfect. No one plays at their best all the time. No one, in no sport. Everyone has their time and then they fall back down to earth. Look at any sport, you'll never see a player play at his very best all season. They'll be games, weeks, months even where a player just doesn't have it like he did. That's why.

lilojmayo
09-09-2011, 11:03 AM
You do realize there is a difference between peak and prime and your eyes may be deceiving you right?

if Kobe peaked in 03. How can his prime been in 06-08. in this curious case of Kobe, Kobe's peak and prime happened in the same season.

Everything else has been a watered down version ( still best player in NBA though )

Hawkeye15
09-09-2011, 11:03 AM
Kobe's prime has stretched for 10 years, which is what makes him the player he is

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 11:04 AM
if Kobe peaked in 03. How can his prime been in 06-08. in this curious case of Kobe, Kobe's peak and prime happened in the same season.

Everything else has been a watered down version ( still best player in NBA though )

Read Hawkeye's post

Avenged
09-09-2011, 11:09 AM
Kobe has remained consistent for so many years. Players have come and gone in terms of player rankings and comparing to Kobe, but he is still there. Even now with a decline he's still a top 10 player.

BSplaya2121
09-09-2011, 11:12 AM
Even if Kobe is out of his prime 8 years running like you say he is...... I guarantee that he is still talented enough to be better than over 95% of the current NBA players. Thats how good he was, and still is........... Its Kobe man.

calakers
09-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Even if Kobe is out of his prime 8 years running like you say he is...... I guarantee that he is still talented enough to be better than over 95% of the current NBA players. Thats how good he was, and still is........... Its Kobe man.

:clap: Just proves how good he has been he is clearly declining but still he is at the top with all the rest of the NBA best.

NYKalltheway
09-09-2011, 11:41 AM
how many came off free throws in 2003 and how many in 2006? serious question btw

ManningToTyree
09-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Yes, you are wrong for saying that. He has won two scoring titles, a MVp and two finals MVPs since you claim his prime ended. I think he is past his prime now, but not by more then two years. He is still elite anyway

PrettyBoyJ
09-09-2011, 11:48 AM
From 06-08 Kobe was still able to create space at will.. Maybe not today as before but he mastered his foot work and has the skill to make space without using speed or athleticism..

sixer04fan
09-09-2011, 11:49 AM
8 years!?!? Maybe... 1 year?

Geargo Wallace
09-09-2011, 11:51 AM
The man scored a lot. Colorado proved it.

lakersiznumber1
09-09-2011, 12:20 PM
dude lay off the crack 2much kobe and lebron hate thread jus because kobe didnt win the tittle this year hes the worst player in the league now and dirk wins 1 and hes the best kobe was rated as the best now hes not eventop 10 dude has like 50 injuries lay off when hes healthy he be the best again realax enough kobe and lebron thread now are those the only players in the league u know theres other players like chris paul, amare, melo y dont u hate on them 4 once they didnt win it either does that mean there declining 2 stop hatin kobe has 5 rings more then anybody in the league he did his time he leaving the game soon lay off and find something better 2 write about its the same thing kobe lebron kobe lebron lol u guys sound like a broken record

mightybosstone
09-09-2011, 12:40 PM
I think you could possibly make a case for Kobe's prime having ended somewhere in the 07-08 and 09-10 seasons. But the scary thing is that a lot of the numbers from those seasons are superior to seasons he had right in the middle of his career (01-02, 03-04 and 04-05 for example). And you can certainly make a case that last year was the first year outside his prime, except that his PER and WS/48 and a ton of other advanced stats were superior to the previous season.

It's actually extremely hard to locate his prime, because even though some areas have dropped off over the last three years, he still won two championships and two Finals MVPs during that time. In fact, I think it's a lot easier to argue that he's still in his prime than that his prime was over eight years or three years or even one year ago.

Chronz
09-09-2011, 12:45 PM
First off, you got EVERYTHING twisted. That wasnt the Colorado trial year, that came in 2004. This was the year he bulked up to 220 (my friend swears it was because he got tired of Corliss Williamson busting him down low in a few games). I agree this was the version of Kobe I liked the best but he couldnt sustain this level of play for the playoffs when he admittedly tired down the stretch with the excess bulk. He never regained that bulk for a reason, he went the longevity route which was probably for the best.

His defense was good but it was a notch below his prior years. Your not wrong for thinking it was his PEAK, its definitely arguable, but hes been in his Prime forever. Also Kobe went on that 40PT barrage WITH Shaq, not without but once the streak ended it took Shaq *****ing to Phil to get Kobe back in line.

Andrew32
09-09-2011, 01:10 PM
Kobe was definitely better in 03 then in 06.

The rules changes immediately and drastically upped his efficiency and his ability to score in general.

Plus 06 was a scoring inflated season so any scoring feat accomplished by a wing in that season has a bit of an asterisk next to it.

You couldn't be within 2 feet of a perimeter player that season or they'd call a foul.

Lim
09-09-2011, 01:26 PM
he only been out of his prime for like 2 years imo

LAKERMANIA
09-09-2011, 01:32 PM
Kobe's peak was 06 not 03

sep11ie
09-09-2011, 01:39 PM
I'll tell you cool story, but I'll end it in, "brah".

nycsports2
09-09-2011, 01:42 PM
imo kobe is a top 3 player if not the best hes mastered the game of basketball from all aspects and knows how to play and what to do in every situation

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 01:42 PM
Kobe was definitely better in 03 then in 06.

The rules changes immediately and drastically upped his efficiency and his ability to score in general.

Plus 06 was a scoring inflated season so any scoring feat accomplished by a wing in that season has a bit of an asterisk next to it.

You couldn't be within 2 feet of a perimeter player that season or they'd call a foul.

Should that not hold true for every season after 05-06 then?

AIRMAR72
09-09-2011, 02:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-41P9rU1Wc 1:15 min damn Kobe.

Kobe Bryant 2003 Season: 30.0 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg 2.2 spg .8 blocks 45.1 FG% 38.3 3pt% 84.3% FG

Idc about the numbers though. I have been watching Kobe film lately and it is painfully clear to me that, we are 8 years removed from seeing " Kobe the Black Mamba Assassin".

What seperated Kobe that year from any other Kobe year, was he was a total beast. He was able to create insane space moreso than anyother year. He was able to still blow by opponents at will. ( Post 2004 wasnt the case). He had his tough shot making ability in grained in him, while still being in his athletic peak. Kobe defensively was just as impressive, he was def a legit all nba defensive player ( unlike now).

Let's not forget that was Eagle Colorado year. Dude hated the world, and played like it. Was a f*cking soldier on the court. It was like he was going to war on and off the court.

30.0 ppg. To me that's the most impressive part of his run. He was able to do that with Shaq whoring away 27.5 ppg up for grabs. Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in 2006. Put it together folks. Kobe was better in 03, without Shaq Kobe probably averages 35-38 ppg that year, and would have ended when was Kobe's prime.

Well damn Kobe in the month of Feb that year when Shaq goes down to injury, Kobe only confirms that hypothesis.

Kobe Bryant 2003 Feb: 40.6 ppg 4.9 rpg 3.6 apg 2.6 spg 47.2% FG 42.9% 3pt 84.6 % FT

R.I.P 2003 Kobe Bryant. That was when Kobe was Kobe "Black Mamba".

get outta with this 03 garbage in the zone performance are serious? what happen in this years 2011 playoff run KOBE was doing the same moves you posted here except jason kidd SHUT EM down 4 straight games leaving kobe M.I.A and daze RESULT his 2nd broomstick protcal(swept away) IN HIS hyped CAREER

AIRMAR72
09-09-2011, 02:20 PM
imo kobe is a top 3 player if not the best hes mastered the game of basketball from all aspects and knows how to play and what to do in every situation

really

lilojmayo
09-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Kobe was definitely better in 03 then in 06.

The rules changes immediately and drastically upped his efficiency and his ability to score in general.

Plus 06 was a scoring inflated season so any scoring feat accomplished by a wing in that season has a bit of an asterisk next to it.

You couldn't be within 2 feet of a perimeter player that season or they'd call a foul.


That is a very good point to bring up. 06 season we had 3 or 4 player average 30 ppg or more which is insane. ( highest this past season was 28 ppg). But Kobe would have done that with or without a rule change.

Shmontaine
09-09-2011, 03:36 PM
to answer the OP question... yes

btw, OJ Mayo isn't exactly 'big' :)

Tony_Starks
09-09-2011, 09:06 PM
Seeing how Kobe was making a mockery of the entire league in '06 I would say yes you are wrong.......

LakersDudeee
09-10-2011, 04:31 AM
Am I the only one he sees anything ironic is all of this?

Oh the irony...

The_Jamal
09-10-2011, 05:06 AM
dude lay off the crack 2much kobe and lebron hate thread jus because kobe didnt win the tittle this year hes the worst player in the league now and dirk wins 1 and hes the best kobe was rated as the best now hes not eventop 10 dude has like 50 injuries lay off when hes healthy he be the best again realax enough kobe and lebron thread now are those the only players in the league u know theres other players like chris paul, amare, melo y dont u hate on them 4 once they didnt win it either does that mean there declining 2 stop hatin kobe has 5 rings more then anybody in the league he did his time he leaving the game soon lay off and find something better 2 write about its the same thing kobe lebron kobe lebron lol u guys sound like a broken record

Periods are generally ftw

coryd238
09-10-2011, 05:13 AM
"I don't care about stats, but here's a bunch of stats that prove why my opinion is right"

lolol, but imo Kobe's prime was 2006.

3ballbomber
09-10-2011, 06:07 AM
8 yrs? lol i'm no fan of kobe but c'mon now.

bolts4ever
09-10-2011, 06:12 AM
does it really matter Kobes won two rings in 3 yers and been to the finals 3 of the last 4 yrs.

Bruno
09-10-2011, 06:39 AM
Kobe was definitely better in 03 then in 06.

The rules changes immediately and drastically upped his efficiency and his ability to score in general.

Plus 06 was a scoring inflated season so any scoring feat accomplished by a wing in that season has a bit of an asterisk next to it.


If you're referencing hand-checking you're off by five years. It was first implemented in 2000-2001.

Starting in 2000-01:

• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

1996 NBA Average PPG/PACE: 99.5 ppg/91.5 team possessions per 48 min.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996.html

1997 NBA Average PPG: 96.9 ppg/ 90.1 team possessions per 48 min.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1997.html

1998 NBA Average PPG: 95.6 ppg/ 90.3 team possessions per 48 min.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1998.html

1999 NBA Average PPG: 91.5 ppg/88.9 team possessions per 48 min.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1999.html

2000 NBA Average PPG: 97.5 ppg/ 93.1 team possessions per 48 minutes.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2000.html

2001 NBA Average PPG: 94.8 ppg/ 91.3 team possessions per 48 minutes
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2001.html

2002 NBA Average PPG: 95.5 ppg/ 90.7 team possessions per 48 minutes.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2002.html

2003 NBA Average PPG: 95.1 ppg/ 90.1 team possessions per 48 minutes.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2003.html

When ignoring the 1999 lockout season, the three lowest scoring seasons from 1996-2003 were 2001, 2002 and 2003. If hand checking makes it so much easier for perimeter players to score, then why did we witness a league wide decrease in team PPG despite comparable pace immediately following the rule change? The era of 2001-2004 go down as some of the lowest scoring NBA seasons in league history, despite "no hand-checking".

While a lot of people insist than hand-checking makes it too easy to score, it's easy to ignore the fact that zone defense was made legal in the NBA starting in 2001. People refuse to acknowledge how those two rules changes balanced each-other out; in fact, the stats suggest that it was harder to get points immediately following the rules changes of 2001. Things have balanced out, the league has been averaging back near 90's levels in recent seasons (2005 on).

2006 wasn't a "scoring inflated" season.

2005 NBA average PPG: 97.2 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005.html

2006 NBA average PPG: 97.0 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

2007 NBA average PPG: 98.7 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007.html

2008 NBA average PPG: 99.9 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2008.html

2009 NBA average PPG: 100.0 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009.html

2010 NBA average PPG: 100.4 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010.html

2011 NBA average PPG: 99.6 ppg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011.html

2006 had the lowest average points per game scored in the NBA over the past seven seasons

NYKalltheway
09-10-2011, 07:27 AM
Bruno...

From an article from 2006 in USAToday (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2006-01-23-100-points_x.htm)


The changes, which went into effect last season, eliminated hand checking and opened the lane by making it illegal for any defender to be in the lane for longer than three seconds

They tried changing it in 1994 as well, but it didn't pan out well for them. 2004-5 was the tombstone of the NBA, like it or not.

NYKalltheway
09-10-2011, 07:48 AM
found this too

1999-00
• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

2000-01
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

2001-02
• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

2006-07
• On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline.

JasonJohnHorn
09-10-2011, 11:28 AM
I would take the Kobe Bryant of the last three seasons over the Kobe Bryant of any other three seasons. Its like MJ at 33 vs. MJ at 29. MJ 33 would win everytime. His fade-away was better, his post up game was better, he was smarter, less emotional on the floor, had a better understanding of the team game, was more of a facilitator and had a higher basketball IQ. Kobe NOW, might not be able to score 35 a game for an entire season, but he could still score 30 IF HE WANTED TO. The thing is, Kobe knows that taking less shots and sharing the ball with Gasol, Odom and Bynum makes the team better. Kobe from 08-present has a post up game that would make the younger Kobe look like a fool, has more weapons on the O end, is smarter defensively and is less selfish and emotional than the Kobe from 07 and earlier. Younger Kobe always wanted the ball felt like he had something to prove, felt like he had one-up everybody on the court, including his teammates, and Kobe now, though he still sometimes hogs the shots, is much smarter, even if he is less athletic.

Kobe 08-present beats out any other Kobe, even if the stat lines of the younger Kobe are more impressive.

Andrew32
09-10-2011, 12:43 PM
The rule changes started in 05 Bruno and 06 was an "inflated season"
There is a site that shows how 06 was a huge anomaly when it came to Wings scoring, they also showed how the number of 40+ games that season was like 3x - 4x every other season before and after it. They were calling the game differently that season.

I dunno if anyone can find that site for me, JBullz if you have it can you post it up.

lilojmayo
09-10-2011, 01:00 PM
The rule changes started in 05 Bruno and 06 was an "inflated season"
There is a site that shows how 06 was a huge anomaly when it came to Wings scoring, they also showed how the number of 40+ games that season was like 3x - 4x every other season before and after it. They were calling the game differently that season.

I dunno if anyone can find that site for me, JBullz if you have it can you post it up.

yeah thats what everyone meant to say about the inflated scoring. scoring when up for the top perimeter players

NYKalltheway
09-10-2011, 02:00 PM
The rule changes started in 05 Bruno and 06 was an "inflated season"
There is a site that shows how 06 was a huge anomaly when it came to Wings scoring, they also showed how the number of 40+ games that season was like 3x - 4x every other season before and after it. They were calling the game differently that season.

I dunno if anyone can find that site for me, JBullz if you have it can you post it up.

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/nbahandchecking.htm


2003-2004 ppg:
Points Per Game Leaders
1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0

2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)
(Notice a spike in scoring and notice how many perimeter players top the PPG lists)
Points Per Game Leaders
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

2005-2006 ppg
Points Per Game Leaders
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2

2006-2007 ppg
Points Per Game Leaders
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6

2007-2008 ppg
Points Per Game leaders 1.LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2

2008-2009 ppg
Points Per Game
1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3

Now let's compare that to the 90's when Jordan was a Bull:
1997-1998 ppg
Points Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)

1996-1997 ppg
Points Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.4
3. Glen Rice-CHH 26.8
4. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.9
5. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2

1995-1996 ppg
Points Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0
(notice, only one perimeter player)

1994-1995 ppg
Points Per Game leaders
1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1
(Notice the lack of perimeter players)

1993-1994 ppg
Points Per Game leaders
1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.8
2. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.3
4. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.0
5. Karl Malone-UTA 25.2
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5

(where are the perimeter players?)

1992-1993 ppg
Points Per Game leaders
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2

1991-1992 ppg
Points Per Game leaders
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0

1990-1991 ppg
Points Per Game leaders
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

lakeshow3peat
09-10-2011, 02:51 PM
How can somebody judge someones prime when there career hasnt even ended yet?

lilojmayo
09-10-2011, 04:18 PM
How can somebody judge someones prime when there career hasnt even ended yet?

Kobe now is not the same Kobe as back in 2003. Kobe still a beast and a consensus top 5 player ( i personally still think he the best in the game still)

3mikee_
09-10-2011, 04:22 PM
Yea OP needs to understand prime/peak... Kobe's consistent... only reason we hear him compared to Jordan all the time is because of his consistency. Why don't we hear Vince Carter's name?

knickfan4life
09-10-2011, 04:27 PM
kobe put up those numbers cause his team was the closest thing to garbage known to man... he got pau after that... he was in his prime til 08-09 IMO... slowly dropping now, but still deadly... hence all the buzzer beaters......

GoPacers33
09-10-2011, 05:27 PM
Si

Bruno
09-10-2011, 05:44 PM
None of you address the fact that 2006 was the lowest scoring year the NBA has seen over the past seven seasons. A season isn't "inflated" just because three wing player cracked 30.0 ppg, look at the team stats, big picture.

Like it or not, hand checking was on the rule book, starting in 2001.

Bryant, AI, and LBJ scoring over 30.0 per game in 2006 should come as no surprise considering how much their teams sucked, how heavily they were relied on, and how good they were. If the angle you guys are pushing is true, then why did it simply end in 2006? Why hasn't prolific scoring by wings happened since (three wings cracking 30.0)? Did the rules suddenly change back?

I know how committed some are to ignoring the fact that 2001-2004 was one of the toughest defensive era in league history (statistically speaking, go look at the team ppg, relative to pace). If it's your prerogative to ignore the impact of zone defense, simply to glorify another era in league history, there's really no need for debate.

None of the numbers presented address the fact that 2006 had the lowest team average in points per game since 2005 (the past seven seasons). Three of the better scoring wings in league history cracking 30.0 ppg during that season doesn't change that fact teams were held to the lowest total ppg over the past seven years. Again, not inflated simply because wings had success, go look at the team numbers- big picture.

Andrew32
09-10-2011, 08:30 PM
Prime Kobe before the rule changes was capable of 25-30ppg on 50-55TS%

Prime Kobe after the rule changes is capable of 27-35ppg on 55-57%TS%

The difference in volume really isnt that dramatic and other then 06 which was an inflated season (sorry its true bruno) you cant ignore the fact that a bunch of wings magically upped their scoring averages and effeciency dramatically. All the other years before and after were pretty much on an even scale except for 06 which is drastically different. You couldnt be within two feet of an Elite Wing in 06 or they'd call a foul.

So yea volume wise Kobe wasn't much different from 01 - 09 or whatever the only thing that changed dramatically was his efficiency which was artificially raised thanks to the big rule changes in 05. I'd say Kobe was a better athlete in the early 00's but more skilled in the later 00's either way offensively he was still relatively equal in production but his defense from 04 onwards was only average to mediocre compared to the defense he played from 97-03 or so.

Bruno
09-10-2011, 08:49 PM
Prime Kobe before the rule changes was capable of 25-30ppg on 50-55TS%

Prime Kobe after the rule changes is capable of 27-35ppg on 55-57%TS%

The difference in volume really isnt that dramatic and other then 06 which was an inflated season (sorry its true bruno) you cant ignore the fact that a bunch of wings magically upped their scoring averages and effeciency dramatically. All the other years before and after were pretty much on an even scale except for 06 which is drastically different. You couldnt be within two feet of an Elite Wing in 06 or they'd call a foul.

So yea volume wise Kobe wasn't much different from 01 - 09 or whatever the only thing that changed dramatically was his efficiency which was artificially raised thanks to the big rule changes in 05. I'd say Kobe was a better athlete in the early 00's but more skilled in the later 00's either way offensively he was still relatively equal in production but his defense from 04 onwards was only average to mediocre compared to the defense he played from 97-03 or so.

You can't call a season inflated in regards to scoring when the team average in PPG is the lowest it has been for the past seven seasons. You're incorrect regarding Kobe and LBJ upping their "efficiency" as well. 2006 was only Bryants 5th highest season in regards to TS%. In fact, Bryants TS% from 2006 is nearly identical to his career average. The same goes for LBJ, his 2006 TS% was the 5th best (out of 8 seasons) and nearly identical to his career TS%. Those are the numbers.

AI was more efficient in 2006 than for the bulk of his career, so I might give you that point. But even then 2006 wasn't his peak in efficiency either, 2008 was.

Those guys score more points because they took more FGAs, not because they upped their efficiency. They took more FGAs because they were on teams with no other scorers (circumstantial), not because the hand-checking rules magically compelled them to take more FGA per game.

I'd more or less agree with the rest of your post.

lilojmayo
09-11-2011, 01:35 PM
Prime Kobe before the rule changes was capable of 25-30ppg on 50-55TS%

Prime Kobe after the rule changes is capable of 27-35ppg on 55-57%TS%

The difference in volume really isnt that dramatic and other then 06 which was an inflated season (sorry its true bruno) you cant ignore the fact that a bunch of wings magically upped their scoring averages and effeciency dramatically. All the other years before and after were pretty much on an even scale except for 06 which is drastically different. You couldnt be within two feet of an Elite Wing in 06 or they'd call a foul.

So yea volume wise Kobe wasn't much different from 01 - 09 or whatever the only thing that changed dramatically was his efficiency which was artificially raised thanks to the big rule changes in 05. I'd say Kobe was a better athlete in the early 00's but more skilled in the later 00's either way offensively he was still relatively equal in production but his defense from 04 onwards was only average to mediocre compared to the defense he played from 97-03 or so.

i agree with the majority of this statement.

knightstemplar
09-11-2011, 09:57 PM
Kobe was definitely better in 03 then in 06.

The rules changes immediately and drastically upped his efficiency and his ability to score in general.

Plus 06 was a scoring inflated season so any scoring feat accomplished by a wing in that season has a bit of an asterisk next to it.

You couldn't be within 2 feet of a perimeter player that season or they'd call a foul.

Kobe

2002-03 Season: 30.0 PPG
2002-03 Playoffs: 32.1 PPG

that was with Shaq

2005-06 Season, the League averaged 97.0 PPG, the lowest in the last 7 seasons, and the average FG% was the lowest in the last 6 seasons, and the Pace was the lowest in the last 7 seasons
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Swashcuff
09-11-2011, 10:04 PM
Kobe

2002-03 Season: 30.0 PPG
2002-03 Playoffs: 32.1 PPG

that was with Shaq

2005-06 Season, the League averaged 97.0 PPG, the lowest in the last 7 seasons, and the average FG% was the lowest in the last 6 seasons, and the Pace was the lowest in the last 7 seasons
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Thing is none of that has anything to do with Kobe. Those changes affected the perimeter players, the elite perimeter players benefited. League scoring average is different from the average scoring of some of the better perimeter players. IMO I did not affect Kobe not as much as those in this thread are claiming but it has change the dynamic of the game a bit.

ne3xchamps
09-11-2011, 10:23 PM
wait... what? :laugh:

this is a great joke thread.
Or is the OP serious?

another reason why there should be a 1000 post minimum to start a thread.