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StriveGreatness
09-08-2011, 06:38 PM
Who is better?

Burkey3472
09-08-2011, 06:49 PM
I think Miggy is slightly better offensively but Adrian is easily the better defensive players so I'd go with A-Gon.

VenezuelanMet
09-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Wasn't A-Gon supposed to hit 99HRs outside of PETCO?

yankeefan54
09-08-2011, 07:12 PM
lets see drunk ******* vs boston *******. Ill go gonzo as he is better on D and a better teamate.

bagwell368
09-08-2011, 10:38 PM
Wasn't A-Gon supposed to hit 99HRs outside of PETCO?

No, Fenway isn't a good HR park, it's a great 2B's park. Don't underestimate his shoulder surgery, new league, and HR Contest in curtailing his numbers this year. Stand back the next 3-4-5 for some big ones.

And oh yes, with adjustments Gonzalez already was Miggy's equal with the bat going back to 2009, with the glove, it's Gonzalez in a walk over.

thenetslegend
09-08-2011, 11:40 PM
i voted adrian, i think he is the better all-around player

Pinstripe pride
09-09-2011, 08:53 AM
gonzalez gets the nod for his defense

Twitchy
09-09-2011, 12:29 PM
I got Miggy slightly ahead. We're talking by maybe one or two runs, so it's not even that significant. Wish there was a "they're equal" option. Both excellent players.

todu82
09-12-2011, 08:12 PM
Adrian Gonzalez

stretchedmonkey
09-13-2011, 12:07 AM
A-Gon because of his Defense, but I love what Miguel Cabrera has become this year, his power numbers are down, but his personality in the clubhouse has definitely improved, and he's still a great hitter, performing just like he should. Watching every game I've noticed Miguel laughing and joking around in the dugout, being a social guy, always got a smile on his face now, which is a good sign, seeing as I thought he was a piece of **** outside of being a good hitter.

DJakk
09-14-2011, 12:26 AM
Gonzalez obviously has the better defense and also has a better effect on the clubhouse. Cabrera barely has an edge of Gonzalez for power, but A-Gon still has the advantage on most other offensive categories.

bagwell368
09-14-2011, 10:07 PM
2009-2011 Neutralized Slash | RC

Gonz:

.291/.424/.579 137
.313/.410/.535 133
.341/.408/.555 131

Miggy:

.320/.391/.537 127
.336/.428/.634 151
.340/.443/.572 135

AG 401 RC vs MC 413 RC 3 year total...

BR has AG with a +31 Runs on D in those 3 years and MC a -12, so on average it looks like AG is worth about 10 runs more per year then MC. Close for sure.

Fly
09-14-2011, 11:15 PM
Ouch, really close one
I guess I'll go Miguel Cabrera, but they are basically equal.

Uncle Sam
09-24-2011, 06:42 PM
Miguel Cabrera. He's improved on the D and has had a mmuch better offensive career than A-gon

jbro732
10-15-2011, 03:28 PM
Miggy's career has been far and away better than A-gon at this point. This is only the second year that Gonzalez has hit over .300. You have to take into account that Miggy has been putting up elite stats for pretty much his whole career.

If I'm looking at this year alone I'd probably take Gonzalez because of the glove and the offense is similar. If I'm taking one player for there career I'm taking Miggy. If i had to choose one player from here on out I'd take Miggy.

Miggy is on his way to a hall of fame career. He is probably the best hitter in the American League at this point. Gonzalez has so much more to prove that he is even on track for Cooperstown.

Gonzalez isn't in the same conversation as Miggy.

bagwell368
10-15-2011, 10:17 PM
Miggy's career has been far and away better than A-gon at this point. This is only the second year that Gonzalez has hit over .300. You have to take into account that Miggy has been putting up elite stats for pretty much his whole career.

If I'm looking at this year alone I'd probably take Gonzalez because of the glove and the offense is similar. If I'm taking one player for there career I'm taking Miggy. If i had to choose one player from here on out I'd take Miggy.

Miggy is on his way to a hall of fame career. He is probably the best hitter in the American League at this point. Gonzalez has so much more to prove that he is even on track for Cooperstown.

Batting average? That doesn't count for much here, and check out the park he used to played in, tough. Boston is made for him and we can all see what he does there.

Also Gonzalez isn't carrying 25 lbs of junk in the trunk like Cabrera, which in part explains why Gonzalez is one of the 3-4 best gloves in MLB at 1B,and Cabrera is bottom 6-7. It also means that his career will be shorter then it had to be.

Also Cabrera is a distraction and danger to himself and others with his drinking and assault issues. No thanks.


Gonzalez isn't in the same conversation as Miggy.

Go read post #12, the last 3 years, Gonzalez is clearly the better player. Fenway is clearly tailored to his game better then what Miggy has. Sig bet, next 5 years combined Gonzalez >> Miggy using BR WAR.

3 months in rehab:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846342

One more slip.....

jbro732
10-16-2011, 09:59 AM
Batting average? That doesn't count for much here, and check out the park he used to played in, tough. Boston is made for him and we can all see what he does there.

Also Gonzalez isn't carrying 25 lbs of junk in the trunk like Cabrera, which in part explains why Gonzalez is one of the 3-4 best gloves in MLB at 1B,and Cabrera is bottom 6-7. It also means that his career will be shorter then it had to be.

Also Cabrera is a distraction and danger to himself and others with his drinking and assault issues. No thanks.



Go read post #12, the last 3 years, Gonzalez is clearly the better player. Fenway is clearly tailored to his game better then what Miggy has. Sig bet, next 5 years combined Gonzalez >> Miggy using BR WAR.

3 months in rehab:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846342

One more slip.....

Miggy hasn't had the advantage of playing in hitters parks either so its an even playing field.

Past 2 years Miggys WAR is higher than Gonzalez.

His career everything trumps Gonzalez.

Players can do what ever they want in there spare time. I don't judge people if they drink. Thats his problem. Doesn't change anything he has done on the field.

Twitchy
10-16-2011, 11:15 AM
I don't know why anybody would really care at defense at 1B, especially considering how unreliable it is. Specifically at first, I mean.

Bottom line, past 3 years Miggy has a 422 wOBA compared to Adrian's 396. If we just focus this year, when Adrian's in a hitters park, it's 436 for Cabrera vs 406 for Gonzalez. I'll take the wOBA advantage anyday of the week over whatever the defensive gap is.

Cabrera really broke out towards the end of the year. They were a lot closer earlier on.

bagwell368
10-16-2011, 11:45 AM
Past 2 years Miggys WAR is higher than Gonzalez.

Past 3 years (the usual amount used for player comparisons):

BR WAR:

AG: 7.0, 6.0, 6.9
MC: 4.4, 7.2, 7.1


His career everything trumps Gonzalez.

Certainly you must have forgotten fielding. And of course clubhouse and off field emotional instability - I grant - Cabrera dominates.


Players can do what ever they want in there spare time. I don't judge people if they drink. Thats his problem. Doesn't change anything he has done on the field.

Really? So when Miggy goes and misses 1/2 a season by doing time for drunk driving, or spousal abuse, or has to dry out - that's OK w/ you? Very generous spirit indeed.

Sorry, but maggots in life are maggots in the clubhouse too. You like him, you keep him.

bagwell368
10-16-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't know why anybody would really care at defense at 1B, especially considering how unreliable it is. Specifically at first, I mean.

By all means toss out UZR - and use Sean Smith or your eyes. Either way, Cabrera is in the bottom 25% of 1B, and Gonzalez in the top 25%. Does any serious poster here disagree with that assessment? 1B isn't a key defensive position, but all things being equal do you want a very good one, or a poor one? Even if the bad fielder averages an extra 10 RC a year, it's a question. Toss in personal issues of several types vs. nothing.... too subjective? Can't make all judgements on a stat sheet, no matter how good the stats are (in today's judgement).

Also given when they each hit the Majors, and the physical changes they have gone through I have more concern that Miggy's birthdate is fudged, and he either uses enhancements or can't stay away from friend foods.

And of course he is a train wreck on a personal level.

Next 5 years which is really what core years they both have left, I'll be happy to do a sig bet about who is more productive.

As for wOBA. Gonzalez played with a weak shoulder last year and this year (new league and very little ST as well). Cabrera just played 25-35 lbs overweight.... I guess it's a wash, but one is due to lack of will power/professionalism and the other is not.

jbro732
10-16-2011, 11:52 AM
Past 3 years (the usual amount used for player comparisons):



Really? So when Miggy goes and misses 1/2 a season by doing time for drunk driving, or spousal abuse, or has to dry out - that's OK w/ you? Very generous spirit indeed.


Your condemning the guy for something that hasn't happened. Sure he has had issues so many players before him have had issues. He hasn't missed 1/2 a season before so its ridiculous to say that he will.

I'll will stick with reality. Thanks.

bagwell368
10-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Your condemning the guy for something that hasn't happened. Sure he has had issues so many players before him have had issues. He hasn't missed 1/2 a season before so its ridiculous to say that he will.

I'll will stick with reality. Thanks.

No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

jbro732
10-16-2011, 12:42 PM
No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

Listen this is America you can mess up and get a second chance. Apologist for him no appreciative for what he has done in his career yes. His off field issues are exactly what they are OFF FIELD. When debating who is better on the field it shouldn't matter what happens off field.

Look at what the drunken wife beater did this year. He powered his team to the postseason with a less impressive cast than Gonzalez. Look where Gonzalez purist lifestyle got him this year. A ticket to the couch to watch the playoffs. Miggys had a pretty consistent career so far while enduring whatever issues he has been enduring. While a big blow up is possible its not inevitable.

My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work.

I respect your argument that A guy who drinks is more likely to negatively affect his team by either missing time or underperforming. Bostons pitching staff sure did the latter but is it really because of some beer and greasy food. Their routine wasn't scrutinized until they started losing.

bagwell368
10-16-2011, 01:00 PM
Listen this is America you can mess up and get a second chance.

He's gotten more then a second chance.


Apologist for him no appreciative for what he has done in his career yes. His off field issues are exactly what they are OFF FIELD. When debating who is better on the field it shouldn't matter what happens off field.

His issues are not all off field. His teammates talk about him. I'm sure he's struck out more then a few times when he was hung over. Failing to see that or excusing it is the definition of an apologist.

It does matter. Ty Cobb, Dick Allen, Manny Ramirez, Rogers Hornsby, Wade Boggs and many more brought a lot of luggage with them. Since it is a team game, and not some 1 on 1 fantasy - the effect of these guys in their teams MUST be factored in.


Look at what the drunken wife beater did this year. He powered his team to the postseason with a less impressive cast than Gonzalez. Look where Gonzalez purist lifestyle got him this year. A ticket to the couch to watch the playoffs.

You actually believe that ends justify the means? I bet you have never hired or fired anyone in your life, or been held responsible for the failings of people you are responsible for. Sounds something like the neat little moral universe that a college student imagines about life.


Miggys had a pretty consistent career so far while enduring whatever issues he has been enduring. While a big blow up is possible its not inevitable.

The man is clearly a talent, but he's had issues, from early weight gain, to rumours of drinking back to his first team. His numbers are not uniform across the years - he had a soft year or two in the mid/late 2000's as I recall.


My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work.

Again, there is no way to assure that his personal and team life have not crossed.

2006: From wiki:

During a July 9 7–6 road loss to the Mets, Cabrera became involved in an altercation with teammate Scott Olsen. With the Marlins trailing 2–0, Mets catcher Paul Lo Duca hit a hard grounder that glanced off Cabrera's glove and rolled into left field, allowing a run to score as Lo Duca raced to second with a double. While the ball glanced off Cabrera's glove, Olsen seemed to believe that Cabrera did not give his full effort to get to the ball. As they came off the field, Olsen could be seen shouting something at Cabrera. A moment later, television cameras showed Cabrera in the crowded dugout reaching past teammates to poke his finger at Olsen as the pitcher walked past him. Olsen tried to jab back at Cabrera, who charged Olsen and tried to kick the pitcher before both players were quickly separated by teammates.[6]

2010-2011 Wiki:

On January 21, 2010, it was reported that Cabrera spent three months in an alcohol abuse treatment center to help him recover from his addiction. He said at the time he had not drunk alcohol since he was taken into custody in October, 2009, and that he would continue his treatment into spring training and the regular season.[29]

Television station WXYZ had obtained a police report from an alleged incident the preceding August, in which Cabrera was involved in a verbal altercation with diners at a restaurant inside the Townsend.[30] Witnesses say Cabrera threatened to fight the group outside and indicated that he had a gun. Restaurant employees asked Cabrera to leave and police were called. There was no weapon in Cabrera's vehicle and Cabrera told team officials he did not own one. Cabrera then told team officials he had been dealing with personal issues and got upset, and the diners ended up dropping the matter.[31]

Cabrera was arrested in Florida on suspicion for drunk driving and resisting arrest on February 16, 2011.


Seems to me Cabrera is getting into trouble more frequently then earlier in his career. If you think the Tigers FO and Management isn't highly concerned about Cabrera staying on the field, and out of trouble - than I do not know what to say. I'm sure if he violates any moral clauses in his still massive deal, he'll be on the curb ASAP.

jbro732
10-16-2011, 01:27 PM
You actually believe that ends justify the means? I bet you have never hired or fired anyone in your life, or been held responsible for the failings of people you are responsible for. Sounds something like the neat little moral universe that a college student imagines about life.



Haha. Come on this is an internet forum you really want to challenge me on a personal level? So because I disagree with you I'm automatically some childish college kid who has no responsibility or career? You don't know what I do for a living. Listen I'm not going to brag about what I do for a living or take cheap shots at you. Its the internet. You can have that cheap shot.

Lets keep it to baseball. Discussion over.

bagwell368
10-16-2011, 09:42 PM
Haha. Come on this is an internet forum you really want to challenge me on a personal level? So because I disagree with you I'm automatically some childish college kid who has no responsibility or career? You don't know what I do for a living. Listen I'm not going to brag about what I do for a living or take cheap shots at you. Its the internet. You can have that cheap shot.

Lets keep it to baseball. Discussion over.

To me this statement:

"My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work."

is idealistic. Stars of Cabrera's magnitude live in a glass house. He isn't some guy living in a suburb with mortgage, wife, and two kids leading a normal life.

I believe the magnitude of what was in the wiki I posted annihilates the notion of a separation between Cabrera's home and work life.

Jeffy25
10-18-2011, 10:32 PM
I'm going Miggy, but it's so close, that I won't argue against anyone that says A-Gone

F*(&"Next Year"
10-19-2011, 09:02 AM
Put em together and what do ya get? Miguel Gonzalez! (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gonzal004mig)

catman
10-20-2011, 03:17 PM
I'll take Cabrera, but agree with Jeffy. Miggy is younger and becoming a much better fielder at 1B. With a bit more protection around him in the line up, he could hit .350 with 40+ homers annually.

bagwell368
10-20-2011, 03:21 PM
I'll take Cabrera, but agree with Jeffy. Miggy is younger and becoming a much better fielder at 1B. With a bit more protection around him in the line up, he could hit .350 with 40+ homers annually.

Good luck with a guy prone to domestic abuse and alcohol abuse lasting a long time - in particular carrying at least 30 lbs too much weight.

i.got.the.nutz
10-21-2011, 12:55 AM
It hasn't stopped him producing at a HOF pace for the first eight years of his career. I doubt it will stop anytime soon.

bagwell368
10-21-2011, 06:34 AM
It hasn't stopped him producing at a HOF pace for the first eight years of his career. I doubt it will stop anytime soon.

He's already burned his chances, next time he gets arrested, or put away to dry out - he'll get real time, and they won't pay attention to his schedule. Plus he's obese or nearly so. That always cuts down guys early too.

BradfordIsElite
10-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Other then Pujols, these are probly the 2 i'd pick to build a franchise around. I'd give the edge to Cabrera however.

i.got.the.nutz
10-21-2011, 05:33 PM
He's already burned his chances, next time he gets arrested, or put away to dry out - he'll get real time, and they won't pay attention to his schedule. Plus he's obese or nearly so. That always cuts down guys early too.

Either way it will be interesting to see how both their careers pan out. I agree that off field issues can hurt a professional athlete's career on the field, but it doesn't seem to bother Cabrera in his case.

For the next three years, I expect Cabrera to put up better numbers than Gonzalez.

bagwell368
10-21-2011, 06:28 PM
For the next three years, I expect Cabrera to put up better numbers than Gonzalez.

Unless Gonzalez has shoulder problems he can't shake, by raw numbers I expect Gonzalez to take the next 5 on average, and most of the individual ones.

Adjusted numbers would be closer, until you add in the defense.

northsider
10-21-2011, 07:42 PM
Wow talk about a ****ing comparison. I honestly had a real hard time with this one and for me I just took the guy I liked more in Miggy.

MetsFanatic19
10-23-2011, 05:21 PM
id rather have agon, on account of his much better defense

Celtic AL
10-27-2011, 09:52 PM
its a coin flip IMO

FortDetroit
01-26-2012, 02:30 PM
He's already burned his chances, next time he gets arrested, or put away to dry out - he'll get real time, and they won't pay attention to his schedule. Plus he's obese or nearly so. That always cuts down guys early too.

Miggy is not obese. If you want to say that about Prince Fielder I definitely would not disagree.... but Miggy is just a gigantic/muscular dude with some extra fat. Hardly obese. This picture was taken just a few days ago.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/files/2011/12/Af_m79pCMAER-3A1.jpg

If you think that is obese we just have different definitions I guess.

MmmRocks
01-26-2012, 06:50 PM
It's Gonzalez. When you adjust for the fact that he's been hitting in Petco their offense is pretty similar. Gonzalez has a 140 OPS+ to Cabrera's 149 OPS+. Gonzalez is an elite defensive player though while Cabrera is terrible defensively.

FortDetroit
01-26-2012, 07:13 PM
It's Gonzalez. When you adjust for the fact that he's been hitting in Petco their offense is pretty similar. Gonzalez has a 140 OPS+ to Cabrera's 149 OPS+. Gonzalez is an elite defensive player though while Cabrera is terrible defensively.

Sure, if we were comparing Miggy to Gonzalez from when he was on the Padres. But we're not. He was playing in one of the best offensive ballparks in all of MLB last season and his numbers from last season were still well below what Cabrera has done the past two seasons.

Green_Monster
01-26-2012, 09:49 PM
Sure, if we were comparing Miggy to Gonzalez from when he was on the Padres. But we're not. He was playing in one of the best offensive ballparks in all of MLB last season and his numbers from last season were still well below what Cabrera has done the past two seasons.

Fenway is not a great hitters park. And Miggy can't play D.

bagwell368
01-26-2012, 10:31 PM
Sure, if we were comparing Miggy to Gonzalez from when he was on the Padres. But we're not. He was playing in one of the best offensive ballparks in all of MLB last season and his numbers from last season were still well below what Cabrera has done the past two seasons.

Let's see, late to ST, shoulder surgery, new league...

In 2011 using BR's Runs created on offense and runs saved on defense we get:

AG: 135+15 = 150
MC: 149-08 = 141

Hmmm....

Fenway is big for high BA (least foul territory in MLB), and 2B's, but it's not good for HR's.

FortDetroit
01-26-2012, 11:45 PM
Overall Fenway is a top offensive park (top 5), regardless of if it suppresses homers or not.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-fenway-helping-or-hurting-adrian-gonzalez/


It looks like Fenway Park is helping Gonzalez a good amount, as only two of his home runs and doubles this season would have been home runs at PETCO. You also can tell that Gonzalez hasn’t hit any deep fly balls to center field in Fenway — regardless whether they’re home runs or doubles (the same goes for fly outs, even though they’re not on this map). Many of those doubles to short left field look like outs in PETCO; at Fenway, they bounce off the Green Monster.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4673277


Hit Tracker analysis of Gonzalez's 2009 home runs suggests he would lose a handful of line-drive homers at Fenway, but he could be expected to gain back some home runs from shorter, high flies to left that would clear the Monster but fall short at Petco.

"Gonzalez's home run total would not be strongly affected by a move to Boston," Rybarczyk said. "The main difference in his production would be an increase in doubles. Virtually all of the home runs that the Green Monster takes away turn into doubles, and the shorter distance to the left-field wall in Boston will also turn some routine fly balls into wall-scraping doubles."

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/13368/more-bang-for-gonzalezs-bat-in-fenway


Adrian Gonzalez rates right alongside Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard as one of the game's pre-eminent power-hitting first basemen. This, despite the fact that he played half of his games over the last five seasons in the pitcher friendly Petco Park. If Gonzalez had played in a hitter's park (like Fenway Park), his numbers would have been gargantuan.

My only point is that he doesn't have the excuse that he's playing in an extreme pitchers park anymore because he is out of Petco. And even then, his numbers still do not stack up with Miggy across the board. Miggy had a slightly higher batting average, significantly higher OBP (+.038) and SL% (+.038), and hence a better OPS (+.076).

bagwell368
01-27-2012, 10:42 AM
Overall Fenway is a top offensive park (top 5), regardless of if it suppresses homers or not.
My only point is that he doesn't have the excuse that he's playing in an extreme pitchers park anymore because he is out of Petco. And even then, his numbers still do not stack up with Miggy across the board. Miggy had a slightly higher batting average, significantly higher OBP (+.038) and SL% (+.038), and hence a better OPS (+.076).

Yes, Fenway is an excellent offensive park. I am well versed in Agon's hitting charts since 2008. In Fenway his best years will look like: .315/.415/.615 with 50 2B's and 34 HR's. Since he'll be in Boston 7 years in his prime and the beginning of his decline years which maps closely with Jimmy Foxx, if healthy, I have Agon exceeding Foxx's 7 years in Boston, he already had a fine start on that. Not bad, he could be the best 1B of a very old franchise. Miggy going to outdo Greenberg or Cash? He's not even half way yet according to rWAR.

I don't think Agon needs an excuse or wants one. He goes out and plays, and causes a minimum amount of trouble. Given the mammoth deals that Howard, Fielder, Cabrera, Albert, and Teixera have - I'm confident over the next 5 years Agon will either be #1 or #2 in WAR per $ paid out of that group.

And yet Agon's numbers do stack up because he can field well and Miggy can't, according to the last thing I heard out of Detroit, Miggy will be the DH, so that will hurt his value even more if true.

Agon has a 19.7 rWAR over the last 3 years, 18.4 for Cabrera. Usually the last 3 years are considered the best predictor of the next few. Hmmm.

Agon hopefully has his shoulder together and his protection: Youk, Ortiz, Ross together for '12.

sexicano31
01-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Yeah but, who has the most RBI?

MmmRocks
01-27-2012, 09:13 PM
Sure, if we were comparing Miggy to Gonzalez from when he was on the Padres. But we're not. He was playing in one of the best offensive ballparks in all of MLB last season and his numbers from last season were still well below what Cabrera has done the past two seasons.

Gonazlez has played almost his entire career in Petco. If you're comparing career numbers then you're essentially comparing Cabrera to Gonzalez when he was with the Padres. Either that, or you're using selective 1 or 2 year sample sizes.

Jeffy25
01-29-2012, 10:06 AM
For the last three years (because I don't think work prior to that is relevant to a discussion about who is better today. If you are asking about who has a better career it's different information)

As far as moving forward, give me Miggy.

2009-2011
Miggy - .422 wOBA, 163 wRC+
A-Gone - .396 wOBA, 151 wRC+

And honestly, Miggy has also had a better career.


A-Gone has yet to have a season superior to Miggy, park adjusted and not park adjusted (MAYBE 2009, and I wouldn't bet my first born that it was a better season and it was 3 years ago). A-Gone is better defensively, but that doesn't mean much at first base.


Give me Miggy

I have always liked A-Gone, a good, under the radar player for a long time that us stat heads loved. But Miggy is potentially the best hitter in the game right now, and is easily in the top 5. A-Gone is for sure top 10, no shame in that, but it might be a stretch to say he is in the top 5.

Defensively, A-Gone is at least average, while Miggy is pretty awful (can't believe they want him at third).

Miggy is just the better ball player.

MmmRocks
01-29-2012, 05:45 PM
Overall Fenway is a top offensive park (top 5), regardless of if it suppresses homers or not.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-fenway-helping-or-hurting-adrian-gonzalez/



http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4673277



http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/13368/more-bang-for-gonzalezs-bat-in-fenway



My only point is that he doesn't have the excuse that he's playing in an extreme pitchers park anymore because he is out of Petco. And even then, his numbers still do not stack up with Miggy across the board. Miggy had a slightly higher batting average, significantly higher OBP (+.038) and SL% (+.038), and hence a better OPS (+.076).

Fenway Park is not a good home run hitting park. It was 22nd last year in giving up home runs.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/sort/HRFactor

That probably explains why Gonzalez hit 17 home runs on the road to 10 at home, had a .579 SLG on the road to .516 at home and a .989 OPS at home to a .929 OPS at home.

I think even when you adjust the offensive statistics for ballparks, Miguel Cabrera is the better hitter. But that's only half the game. Adrian Gonzalez is the much, much, much better defensive player.

StriveGreatness
01-29-2012, 07:26 PM
Fenway Park is not a good home run hitting park. It was 22nd last year in giving up home runs.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/sort/HRFactor

That probably explains why Gonzalez hit 17 home runs on the road to 10 at home, had a .579 SLG on the road to .516 at home and a .989 OPS at home to a .929 OPS at home.

I think even when you adjust the offensive statistics for ballparks, Miguel Cabrera is the better hitter. But that's only half the game. Adrian Gonzalez is the much, much, much better defensive player.

Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.

bagwell368
01-29-2012, 07:54 PM
Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.

Offense is more important at 1B then defense for sure, but defense does count, so focusing on hitting only categories doesn't seem representative to express full value, does it?

2009-11: runs created + runs saved above average (rWAR):

Miggy---------- Adrian

127+-2 = 125 : 124+12 = 136
141+-3 = 144 : 119+06 = 125
149+-8 = 141 : 135+15 = 150

All totaled AG is 1 run better over the last 3 years, and wins two of the years. Seems pretty even to me, except:

AG had a bad shoulder in '10, and left over issues in '11. Outside of that he has no physical or behavior problems that I know of. Miggy has been a massive distraction with his out of control boozing and wife battles. I understand he's all cleaned up - sadly regression among abusers isn't something to count on. He seems to be carrying a couple of extra pounds as well.

I'll take Gonzalez in probably the best park in the majors for his swing in terms of BA and 2B's (check out his hits charts and his results last year) - it's a bit tough on the HR's, but I'm not too worried about it.

MmmRocks
01-29-2012, 08:17 PM
Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.

You take the all-bat future DH, I'll take the better all-around player ;)


Their park adjusted wOBA's the last three years:

2009
Cabrera - .406
Gonzalez - .440

2010
Cabrera - .427
Gonzalez - .414

2011
Cabrera - .442
Gonzalez - .407

FortDetroit
01-29-2012, 11:08 PM
Article on this from cbssportsline.com

http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/34490826

bagwell368
01-30-2012, 09:41 AM
Article on this from cbssportsline.com

http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/34490826

There are people in this thread that posted far morein terms of data and logic that supports their case (either side) than this casual and weak piece has. Really man, that CBS piece is crud.

The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.

Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.

Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?

FortDetroit
01-30-2012, 03:21 PM
There are people in this thread that posted far morein terms of data and logic that supports their case (either side) than this casual and weak piece has. Really man, that CBS piece is crud.

The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.

Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.

Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?

No. I'm not sure where you heard that. That's never been the case.

There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.

I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.

NCBoSoxfan21
01-30-2012, 04:17 PM
Bags is anything but a homer. The guy will rag on his own team as much as anyone and is hardest on his team's players.

bagwell368
01-30-2012, 06:09 PM
No. I'm not sure where you heard that. That's never been the case.

I remember some of these pieces, and they bring home just what a wreck Cabrera has been in a Tigers uniform off an on over the years:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/miguel-cabrera-on-the-trade-block.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/614960-miguel-cabrera-rumors-10-trades-for-tigers-to-move-their-troubled-star

Dozens of other outlets carried variations on that - including home town Tiger papers. Dombrowski denied them of course, but with such an emotional and troubled young man, why would he come clean unless the deal was actually made?


There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.

WAR?

FG's UZR stats on 1B isn't very good I agree. However BR's stats (Sean Smith) are pretty good, that's what I use.


I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.

A guy who finds massive flaws in Carl Crawford in Boston, Papelbon, Lowell, Nomar, Ortiz, and thinks Jim Rice is everything but a HOF is no homer.

Gonzalez spent most of his career as a starter in SD which is a backwater. However, he seems to have drawn a huge amount of interest this past year - what with Boston, etc. One can only imagine how well he'll do being in a top line-up finally, and shaking off his shoulder issues.

Their careers may be about 1/2 over, a little early to be talking career achievements - don't you think? Your SS vs 1B stance fails, because while clearly a 1B is the least important defensive position on the Diamond after a DH and P, Cabrera's piss poor defense has and does hurt him as a player. If they both end up as DH, then I agree, but until then it's just a homer's argument to remove something that favors the other guy. You think that's actually legitimate? :facepalm: Adjusted hitting stats show Cabrera is marginally better then Gonzalez - how you get this generational thing? I can't really say. You need to stand behind Cabrera's crap glove while I batter him for it - because once that's factored in, it's a dead heat - over the past three years.

Jeffy25
01-30-2012, 08:51 PM
Crazy to think of what this free agent class would have looked like if Adrian had not been traded and signed last off-season

FortDetroit
01-30-2012, 09:45 PM
First of all Bagwell, you posted a bleacherreport article. That's foul #1. 2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters. Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.

And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years? He's been the Tigers best hitter since he arrived and one of the best hitters in baseball in that timespan as well. His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate. The Tigers have had nary a problem in the Tigers clubhouse between players/management other than Brandon Inge complaining about getting benched when he is hitting .230 (lol). It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.

bagwell368
01-30-2012, 10:34 PM
First of all Bagwell, you posted a bleacherreport article. That's foul #1.

I had my pick of dozens, go search for yourself. Wait until everyone else see's how lame this critique is when they see my new URL's.


2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters.

And I mentioned that, didn't I? Or does it serve your purposes better to pretend I didn't?


Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.

That's one reason, the other is his issues with alcohol and his wife. Perhaps I have it wrong, but didn't he need counseling for that?


And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years?

Personal behavior, drunken driving, etc. Read it, and explain “He’s a superstar,” right fielder Magglio Ordoņez said. “He needs to act like a superstar.”

Or "Baseball’s goal is not to punish Cabrera, but get him treatment. Cabrera will arrive at spring training, one source said, only after baseball doctors evaluate him and determine that he is “back on the program,” dealing with his issues. He was not at Tigers camp Saturday for the team’s first full workout.

Maybe he will return in short order, get through the season without an extended absence, produce his usual monster numbers. But what happens next offseason? What happens in five years?"

Good questions.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Detroit-Tigers-Miguel-Cabrera-must-not-ignore-alcohol-issues-021811

How about this latest issue?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-tigers-cabrera

He didn't change did he, may not be allowed to travel to Canada to play games....


His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate.

Are you in the clubhouse or players minds? Then I don't accept your opinion. Wouldn't it be better if he conducted himself like a professional instead of angry drunk?


It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.

Nice try trying to spread the mud around... we are talking about Miggy and Gonzalez. I can see MIggy is real committed to his team and his sobriety I can see...

Interestingly I named my elder son after Al Kaline. Cabrera is a long way down from that as a human and a teammate. It's going to show up in losing it sooner then he should have, or missing games, or being put away for treatment or criminal behavior.

FortDetroit
01-31-2012, 01:00 AM
He has a problem no doubt. He goes to counseling to help prevent something like this from happening again and to correct the problem. Is that supposed to be a bad thing he's trying his best to correct the issue? He has had two mishaps in the past 4-5 years. You can be committed to your sobriety and still make mistakes you know. His attitude is not an issue. He works hard, shows up to the ball park every day, and kicks *** on the field. He's had two isolated incidents in the past 4-5 years.

I'm in the clubhouse and player's minds just as much as you are as you make your ridiculous baseless statements. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that living near a city where news about said team is ongoing and constantly flowing gives one a better grasp and feel for the type of situation the Tigers are in and the dynamics of the team as a whole.

Jeffy25
01-31-2012, 03:04 AM
Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs. I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

bagwell368
01-31-2012, 01:53 PM
He has a problem no doubt. He goes to counseling to help prevent something like this from happening again and to correct the problem. Is that supposed to be a bad thing he's trying his best to correct the issue? He has had two mishaps in the past 4-5 years. You can be committed to your sobriety and still make mistakes you know.

Regular rank and file people deal with this sort of thing all the time. But he's paid an enormous amount of money to play baseball - and by the presence of morals clauses in contracts, it's important that he is ready to go - every day - according to the owner that pays him, and the sport as a whole. And not show up hung over, or get flung in jail (he's running out of second choices). It's hard to quantify, but his career is liable to be shortened as well, I'm sure the team who is paying him at that time won't be amused by this development - would you?


His attitude is not an issue. He works hard, shows up to the ball park every day, and kicks *** on the field. He's had two isolated incidents in the past 4-5 years.

It's impossible to quantify that his attitude is not an issue and that he hasn't lost time due to his problems. It's also impossible for you to assure me of these things.


I'm in the clubhouse and player's minds just as much as you are as you make your ridiculous baseless statements. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that living near a city where news about said team is ongoing and constantly flowing gives one a better grasp and feel for the type of situation the Tigers are in and the dynamics of the team as a whole.

Ridiculous? You tried to fob me off by insulting my choice in web sites to use. And so sorry, I've already used this line on you first - or did you fail to read my post? It's not baseless, baseball is chock full of guys that couldn't keep it together with this issue and similar issues. Just because you are a fan of the guy gives you no insight beyond mine, and no right to claim such things like "his attitude is not an issue" - I mean honestly, that's ridiculous. You think because you are a Tigers fan in denial it gives your opinion more credence than mine? That claim right there gives you less.

Face it, Miggy has problems (including domestic battery) and Gonzalez does not (that I have heard of, feel free to dig it up if you can). That is quite likely to have an impact. Let's add that as a RC stat. Each year is an additional -3, -6, -9, -12, -15 for the next 5 years due to lost time (jail, clinic) and/or failing health.

bagwell368
01-31-2012, 02:10 PM
Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Since we are talking about the future of two closely matched players, an issue of persistent drinking AND spousal battery can certainly play a major role in the future, since it appears to only affect one of them and not the other. Periodic out of control drinking and assault are just the iceberg tips of a deep set combination of issues. When will this resurface and what will be the behavior then?


Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

Any time we discuss future performance, we have to weigh what we know about the players. If one guy is 38 and the other is 33 - that wouldn't count? Sure it would. Well I'm betting Cabrera will have more negative issues related to these things then Gonzalez.


I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs.

Puking in the toilet in college and driving drunk and getting away with it does not mean someone has a problem. But in one of the URL's I found on Miggy's latest issue he said he doesn't believe he has a problem. Whoa... Paid how much to do a job that he is hanging over the edge along with his life and/or freedom? Yeah I can see how that is the same thing as a college kid I cited above. NOT.


I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

I don't discount what he HAS DONE. I question how much more of it he can do. I know you know all about Mantle. It wasn't a one or two or three time thing for Mantle. It's naive beyond measure IMO to think Miggy gets bagged every time he actually does something. It isn't TEMPORARY. It's somewhere between contstant and cyclical - NOT TEMPORARY. Sounds like the excuses of an enabler to me - with all due respect.

FortDetroit
01-31-2012, 04:45 PM
Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs. I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

It really sounds like wishful thinking by others to me. He's supposedly been a heavy drinker his entire career and he's missed an average of 3.75 games per year over the past 8 seasons (did not include his rookie season because wasn't in the majors for the full year) while being among the best hitters in the game in that timespan. To drastically assume it's all of a sudden just going to affect his game next season (and hence the comparison between Adrian Gonzalez and Miggy) and we should knock him down a peg on the rankings is baseless.

Jeffy25
01-31-2012, 06:14 PM
Since we are talking about the future of two closely matched players, an issue of persistent drinking AND spousal battery can certainly play a major role in the future, since it appears to only affect one of them and not the other. Periodic out of control drinking and assault are just the iceberg tips of a deep set combination of issues. When will this resurface and what will be the behavior then?



Any time we discuss future performance, we have to weigh what we know about the players. If one guy is 38 and the other is 33 - that wouldn't count? Sure it would. Well I'm betting Cabrera will have more negative issues related to these things then Gonzalez.



Puking in the toilet in college and driving drunk and getting away with it does not mean someone has a problem. But in one of the URL's I found on Miggy's latest issue he said he doesn't believe he has a problem. Whoa... Paid how much to do a job that he is hanging over the edge along with his life and/or freedom? Yeah I can see how that is the same thing as a college kid I cited above. NOT.



I don't discount what he HAS DONE. I question how much more of it he can do. I know you know all about Mantle. It wasn't a one or two or three time thing for Mantle. It's naive beyond measure IMO to think Miggy gets bagged every time he actually does something. It isn't TEMPORARY. It's somewhere between contstant and cyclical - NOT TEMPORARY. Sounds like the excuses of an enabler to me - with all due respect.

Future predictive values, certainly. There is a better chance that Cabrera has another negative off the field incident than Gonzalez will, but there are many factors, one being that we don't even know the probability of that happening again, since it's based on Miggy's self control, and two we don't know if another incident, depending on the degree of it, would even affect his on the field baseball performance.



I just think it's too minor of a thing to make up for the differences in their hitting results. If all things were equal I would agree with you, but Cabrera has shown to be a better hitter than Gonzalez in park neutral statistics.

Whatever Cabrera has dealt with off the field is between him and his family and friends. If he has another incident he could be looking at jail time or other issues. But if he is good, and never has another incident, I don't see how we can weigh him down whenever we are comparing him to another ball player for their on the field results.

Nothing against you at all Bagwell, I just don't think it's worth bringing up. It would be like comparing me (CFO) to an executive in my company beneath me. While my performance and results have been stronger than anything that executive has done in say the last 4 years, it would be like you choosing to hire the executive because he has never had any documented drinking related incidents. Even though these incidents are well in the past, and have nothing to do with our work.

That's how I look at it. I'm not trying to defend the actions of Miggy, or what he has done. But I have been there (never beat anyone or did any of that crap, just was stupid enough to drink too much and then drive when I was 21) and I try to remain understanding to those that have had similar incidents. I was labeled an alcoholic, my parents were convinced I had a drinking issue etc. In reality, I didn't, I just made a stupid mistake after drinking too much. Should have known better, and need to simply make sure to never do it again. Our society over-reacts sometimes to things like this. I'm not trying to justify it, or drinking and driving, but I think people tend to take former actions too seriously when discussing it.

Honestly, I'm surprised someone would even bring it up, it really has nothing to do with their work performances, not unless it ever happens again, and that probability is probably fairly low (depends on the persons self control).

bagwell368
01-31-2012, 09:56 PM
It really sounds like wishful thinking by others to me. He's supposedly been a heavy drinker his entire career and he's missed an average of 3.75 games per year over the past 8 seasons (did not include his rookie season because wasn't in the majors for the full year) while being among the best hitters in the game in that timespan. To drastically assume it's all of a sudden just going to affect his game next season (and hence the comparison between Adrian Gonzalez and Miggy) and we should knock him down a peg on the rankings is baseless.

Have you actually spent any time around alcoholics? It takes a bigger and bigger toll as time mounts up. There is nothing drastic about it. It's the tragic outcome of that behavior.

We'll see how the next 5-6 years play out. I'd just rather not be backing the guy with monkey on his back.

bagwell368
01-31-2012, 10:12 PM
Future predictive values, certainly. There is a better chance that Cabrera has another negative off the field incident than Gonzalez will, but there are many factors, one being that we don't even know the probability of that happening again, since it's based on Miggy's self control, and two we don't know if another incident, depending on the degree of it, would even affect his on the field baseball performance.

OK


I just think it's too minor of a thing to make up for the differences in their hitting results. If all things were equal I would agree with you, but Cabrera has shown to be a better hitter than Gonzalez in park neutral statistics.

But, Gonzalez gets to hit in a line-up and a park that are not neutral for him, and he will continue to derive positive value from his fielding, which since this thread is MC vs AG must be accounted for. The figures I referenced seems to indicate that they are very close over all.


Whatever Cabrera has dealt with off the field is between him and his family and friends. If he has another incident he could be looking at jail time or other issues. But if he is good, and never has another incident, I don't see how we can weigh him down whenever we are comparing him to another ball player for their on the field results.

He hasn't been able to keep away from trouble, and I'm afraid his relationship to his employer and MLB is also critical.


Nothing against you at all Bagwell, I just don't think it's worth bringing up. It would be like comparing me (CFO) to an executive in my company beneath me. While my performance and results have been stronger than anything that executive has done in say the last 4 years, it would be like you choosing to hire the executive because he has never had any documented drinking related incidents. Even though these incidents are well in the past, and have nothing to do with our work.

Sorry but that's a crummy example. Gonzalez the past 3 years is not below Cabrera. Using BR's defensive stats (better then FG's at 1B), and RC we get a picture that is essentially even.


That's how I look at it. I'm not trying to defend the actions of Miggy, or what he has done. But I have been there (never beat anyone or did any of that crap, just was stupid enough to drink too much and then drive when I was 21) and I try to remain understanding to those that have had similar incidents. I was labeled an alcoholic, my parents were convinced I had a drinking issue etc. In reality, I didn't, I just made a stupid mistake after drinking too much. Should have known better, and need to simply make sure to never do it again. Our society over-reacts sometimes to things like this. I'm not trying to justify it, or drinking and driving, but I think people tend to take former actions too seriously when discussing it.

Did you have a multi million dollar contract, and have an entire organization depending on you at that age? If you had would have taken the wheel? Well he did, and he did. He seems to be far more enmeshed in his issues then you did or do.


Honestly, I'm surprised someone would even bring it up, it really has nothing to do with their work performances, not unless it ever happens again, and that probability is probably fairly low (depends on the persons self control).

I sort of forgot about the first one for some time, but this latest episode brought it all back. It cannot be quantified at the moment, but it's a fuzzy piece sitting on the edge of our memories. If he screws up again, I believe many people will lose patience and trust in the man - perhaps he will in himself too. I don't want him to fail in this way over a debate on PSD, but, I've seen entirely too much of human fraility in my life to be shocked if he screws up again - same for anyone else in this situation.

Shamrock
04-12-2012, 02:24 PM
I like Miggy by the slightest of margins.

avrpatsfan
04-15-2012, 11:43 AM
I'll go with Cabrera too

FortDetroit
07-06-2012, 07:33 AM
serious question...what the heck is up with adrian gonzalez this year?

Green_Monster
07-08-2012, 06:23 PM
Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

FortDetroit
07-08-2012, 11:49 PM
Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

What? Has nothing to do with homeruns. He has a .747 OPS...which is about 200 points less than last season. Is he injured or something?

Jeffy25
07-09-2012, 01:10 AM
Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

He is hitting
.284/.330/.417, 97 wRC+
He is a career
.292/.371/.506, 132 wRC+ majority of his career in a pitchers park


League average first basemen are hitting
.257/.333/.436, 110 wRC+

And we are comparing him to a guy who was, and has remained a top 5 hitter in all of baseball very consistently.

Adrian has been pretty bad this year compared to his normal self.

But, he has played a lot of right this year, to help his team out. That is worth something, but his offense has been a disappointment, 27 doubles or not.

FortDetroit
07-22-2012, 02:11 PM
No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

The only total disaster has been Adrian Gonzalez's hitting this season. :clap: Meanwhile Miggy continues to slug away like the HOF caliber player he is.

Maybe A-Gone started drinking heavily this season????????????? :o You can keep your better fielding 1st baseman (or RF now I guess?)

StriveGreatness
07-23-2012, 12:01 AM
Miggy's career has been far and away better than A-gon at this point. This is only the second year that Gonzalez has hit over .300. You have to take into account that Miggy has been putting up elite stats for pretty much his whole career.

If I'm looking at this year alone I'd probably take Gonzalez because of the glove and the offense is similar. If I'm taking one player for there career I'm taking Miggy. If i had to choose one player from here on out I'd take Miggy.

Miggy is on his way to a hall of fame career. He is probably the best hitter in the American League at this point. Gonzalez has so much more to prove that he is even on track for Cooperstown.

Gonzalez isn't in the same conversation as Miggy.

Well said :clap:


Batting average? That doesn't count for much here, and check out the park he used to played in, tough. Boston is made for him and we can all see what he does there.

Also Gonzalez isn't carrying 25 lbs of junk in the trunk like Cabrera, which in part explains why Gonzalez is one of the 3-4 best gloves in MLB at 1B,and Cabrera is bottom 6-7. It also means that his career will be shorter then it had to be.

Also Cabrera is a distraction and danger to himself and others with his drinking and assault issues. No thanks.



Go read post #12, the last 3 years, Gonzalez is clearly the better player. Fenway is clearly tailored to his game better then what Miggy has. Sig bet, next 5 years combined Gonzalez >> Miggy using BR WAR.

3 months in rehab:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846342

One more slip.....

:laugh2: Still want to do a sig bet?

FortDetroit
07-23-2012, 12:34 AM
There are people in this thread that posted far morein terms of data and logic that supports their case (either side) than this casual and weak piece has. Really man, that CBS piece is crud.

The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.

Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.

Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?

Sapped his results a bit? What? When? Cabrera just had the best two seasons of his career the last couple seasons.

FortDetroit
08-26-2012, 01:58 AM
A-Gone was so good they shipped his *** out of town. The best part is that Bagwell was bringing up trade rumors involving Miggy a few years ago as a negative towards Miggy for this comparison.

Fly
08-26-2012, 08:53 AM
A-Gone was so good they shipped his *** out of town. The best part is that Bagwell was bringing up trade rumors involving Miggy a few years ago as a negative towards Miggy for this comparison.

Oh yeah, because that's the reason he got traded. Riiiiiiight :rolleyes:

LAFord
08-29-2012, 06:48 AM
Adrian gonzalez...just not this week.

Halo4life
08-30-2012, 12:15 AM
some shouldnt even be compared. miggy by a 10 miles and then some

flea
08-31-2012, 11:24 AM
Miguel is the best hitter in the game. So, him and it's not very close.

Dekker
10-08-2012, 06:55 AM
3 crowns says cabrera

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 10:00 AM
Yeah, Cabrera has really separated himself from Adrian here.

A few years ago, this was really a good debate to have had.

1-800-STFU
10-08-2012, 10:33 AM
A-Gone was so good they shipped his *** out of town. The best part is that Bagwell was bringing up trade rumors involving Miggy a few years ago as a negative towards Miggy for this comparison.

You realize this thread was made in 2011.....right?

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 07:38 PM
Yeah, Cabrera has really separated himself from Adrian here.

A few years ago, this was really a good debate to have had.

It was a year ago, and the prior 3 years were actually quite close using rWAR.

rjkgr
08-21-2013, 01:10 PM
is that even a real questions anymore? next question? and miggy

jbro732
07-21-2014, 08:35 PM
I saw this thread at the bottom of the page and couldn't help but laugh.

bagwell368
07-21-2014, 09:24 PM
I saw this thread at the bottom of the page and couldn't help but laugh.

Try for the perspective of the time it was written. Cabrera had serious drinking issues, domestic - what abuse? speeding, and Gonzalez was going through the best period of his career, and was (and is) a much better defender then MC.

During that time frame they were quite close. AG never seemed to get past his shoulder issues and Miggy pulled himself together. Those changes and results were not written then.

jbro732
07-22-2014, 04:30 PM
Try for the perspective of the time it was written. Cabrera had serious drinking issues, domestic - what abuse? speeding, and Gonzalez was going through the best period of his career, and was (and is) a much better defender then MC.

During that time frame they were quite close. AG never seemed to get past his shoulder issues and Miggy pulled himself together. Those changes and results were not written then.

I never disagreed with your logic or argument from a baseball standpoint. I just didn't think it was absolute fact Miggy's off the field issues would negatively affect his on field production.

bagwell368
07-22-2014, 08:34 PM
I never disagreed with your logic or argument from a baseball standpoint. I just didn't think it was absolute fact Miggy's off the field issues would negatively affect his on field production.

Yep, I guessed wrong. Miggy has obviously put himself in the HOF unless something bizarre happens. I felt bad for that whole team last year being stuck with Fielder - give them an AL average 1B and they probably win the WS.

filihok
07-23-2014, 12:04 PM
I felt bad for that whole team last year being stuck with Fielder - give them an AL average 1B and they probably win the WS.
There were 17 qualified 1B in the AL last year. Fielder ranked 6th in wRC+ and 8th in WAR

All AL first basemen combined for a 112 wRC+. Fielder had a 125 wRC+.
All AL first basemen combined for 31.9 fWAR. Fielder had 2.2 fWAR. That is almost exactly 1/15.
*http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Don't see how Fielder was anything less than an average first baseman last season.

Jeffy25
07-24-2014, 06:03 PM
Yep, I guessed wrong. Miggy has obviously put himself in the HOF unless something bizarre happens. I felt bad for that whole team last year being stuck with Fielder - give them an AL average 1B and they probably win the WS.

Why don't you go into the MLB section at all any longer? All-time discussions going on in there.