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es0terik
09-08-2011, 04:00 PM
Alright it's pretty simple. To play on all the 'Trade Idea', 'Darvish' and 'Fielder' threads, and in light of the coming off-season, let's take a look at what YOU would do if you were in AA's shoes for one season.

Paul Beeston has said we can support a salary anywhere between 140-160M

The 2011 Blue Jays Salary is $61,617,800
Let's pretend that in 2012 you are given an allowance of $115,000,000

Your job is to set the 25 Man roster and you have up to 115M to do so. If you think it's too much work to set a whole 25 man roster, just do as much as you want (starting rotation, line-up, both, either, etc).

Let's try to keep it a little realistic, and if you're signing Free Agents, they have to be actual free agents this year.

I'll post my roster in a comment under this one (Post 3). Just making the thread to get the ball rolling. Feel free to critique each other's rosters, post your opinions and pitch actual ideas for the coming Blue Jays off-season.

To help you get started, I'll post the salaries of the current 2012 Blue Jays below (Post 2).

*Note 1: For contract information, visit: Cot's Baseball Contracts (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html)

*Note 2: Draft Bonuses, International Signing Bonuses/Posting Fees and Contract Buy-Outs (Mark Teahen for example) are not counted towards the 115M. If however you hand out a major league contract to a draftee or IFA (Examples: Strasburg, Hechavarria and Darvish), those do count towards the 115M allowance.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 04:00 PM
2012 Toronto Blue Jays

Obligations

Jose Bautista - 14M
Mark Teahen - 5.5M
Adam Lind - 5M
Yunel Escobar - 5M
Ricky Romero - 5M
Rajai Davis - 2.75M
Adeiny Hechavarria - 1.75M

Players Under Team Control

Jon Rauch - 3.75M club option ($0.25M buyout)
Edwin Encarnacion - 3.5M club option ($0.5M buyout)
JP Arencibia - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Brett Lawrie - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Henderson Alvarez - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Joel Carreno - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Luis Perez - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Colby Rasmus - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Jesse Carlson - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Brett Cecil - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Kyle Drabek - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Travis Snider - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Mike McCoy - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)
Eric Thames - Minor League Deal (Around 400K)

Abitration Eligible

Kelly Johnson
Jesse Litsch
Brandon Morrow
Shawn Camp
Carlos Villanueva
Casey Janssen
DeWayne Wise
Dustin McGowan

Free Agent

Frank Francisco
Jose Molina

es0terik
09-08-2011, 04:01 PM
My 2012 Blue Jays Roster



[1] R+SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
[2] L+CF - Colby Rasmus - $400,000
[3] R+RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
[4] L+1B - Prince Fielder - $22,000,000
[5] S+DH - Lance Berkman - $15,000,000
[6] R+3B - Brett Lawrie - $400,000
[7] L+2B - Kelly Johnson - $7,000,000
[8] R+CA - JP Arencibia - $400,000
[9] L+LF - Eric Thames - $400,000

Subtotal: $64,600,000
Total So Far: $64,600,000

[10] 1 - Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] 2 - Yu Darvish - $14,000,000
[12] 3 - Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000*
[13] 4 - Henderson Alvarez - $400,000
[14] 5 - Dustin McGowan - $1,500,000*

Subtotal: $24,400,000
Total So Far: $89,000,000

[15] (Reliever) Jesse Litsch - $1,500,000*
[16] (Reliever) Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000*
[17] (Reliever) Luis Perez - $400,000
[18] (Reliever) Joel Carreno - $400,000
[19] (Specialist) George Sherrill - $2,500,000
[20] (Set-Up) Casey Janssen - $2,000,000*
[21] (Closer) Jonathan Broxton - $5,000,000

Subtotal: $13,800,000
Total So Far: $102,800,000

[22] (Catcher) Jason Varitek - $3,000,000
[23] (Utility 1) John McDonald - $2,000,000
[24] (Utility 2) DeWayne Wise - $1,000,000
[25] Open Spot (Drabek, Carlson, Snider, etc)

Subtotal: $6,000,000+
Total So Far: $108,600,000+



Grand Total: $108,600,000+

* = Arbitration Player. Just a random/reasonable guess as to how much they'll make.


Transactions:

- Buy Yu Darvish negotiation rights from Nippon-Ham Fighters for $40,000,001
- Sign Yu Darvish for $85,000,000 over six years (2012-2016: 14M | 2017: 15M)
- Sign Prince Fielder for $176,000,000 over eight years (2012-2019: 22M)
- Sign Lance Berkman for $45,000,000 over three years (2012-2014: 15M)
- Sign George Sherrill for $2,500,000 + $3,000,000 (2013 Option)
- Sign Jonathan Broxton for $15,000,000 over three years + $7,000,000 (2015 Option)
- Sign Jason Varitek for $3,000,000

town123
09-08-2011, 04:17 PM
love it.

I can't wait to do some good reading.

p.s. I like your team so far! and I hope to see Dustin's name in at #5.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 04:30 PM
p.s. I like your team so far! and I hope to see Dustin's name in at #5.
Already penciled him in :)

damadmonk
09-08-2011, 04:56 PM
Isn't Davis still under contract for next year?





My 2012 Blue Jays Roster









Grand Total: $112,600,000+

* = Arbitration Player. Just a random/reasonable guess as to how much they'll make.

jaysnraptors44
09-08-2011, 04:58 PM
My 2012 Blue Jays Roster









Grand Total: $112,600,000+

* = Arbitration Player. Just a random/reasonable guess as to how much they'll make.



lance berkman ? eww thank god your not the gm

town123
09-08-2011, 05:04 PM
lance berkman ? eww thank god your not the gm

Although I might agree with your Berkman comment, maybe the poster is asking you in a very nice way to include your lineup as part of your critique. If your gonna judge.........

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Isn't Davis still under contract for next year?

Yeah but so are Lind and Teahen. I wouldn't keep any of em.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:15 PM
lance berkman ? eww thank god your not the gm

Lol, I think he'll be a good DH for three years :P
+ He's a switch hitter!

I was debating between him and Ortiz and Ortiz would be really fun because we'd get to put him up against the Red Sox, but I still went for Berkman.

There won't be many bidders for Berkman and if STL can sign Pujols I doubt they'll re-sign Lance. I think he's got a little steam left in the engine. I'd have him DH for 3 years and then let him go. That relieves 15M off his salary for some of these rookies that'll be eligible for arbitration. At this point if Fielder wants to DH, you give him the role, and if not, you let a filler player or upcoming rookies use the role to platoon until Fielder wants it.

I also think 15M is the absolute most it'll cost to sign him. I can see him signing for 33/3.

With Berkman in the line-up, the above roster gives us 4 Righties, 4 Lefties and a switch hitter as the starting 9.

North Yorker
09-08-2011, 05:15 PM
Berkman is most likely staying in the NL...

Broxton I dont give $9M/yr, no way...

Wise over Rajai?

If we do sign Prince I hang on to EE to DH/1B, and trade Lind for BP help.
Maybe Lind+ a spec to the Cubs for Sean Marshall (Lefty specialist, 8th inning guy).

Maybe AA shakes some things up and looks to move Morrow in a trade? Im not sure if Josh Johnson would be available but he's a guy that is dominant when healthy, but is fragile.

Would Morrow+ specs for JJ work? Trading talent+ inconsistency for talent+ health problems? Would prob take a nice spec or 2 to make Florida bite

ILDD
09-08-2011, 05:22 PM
My effort below. For what it's worth I don't think you can just ignore the commitment to Lind and Davis so I included them and I also kept room (almost) for Teahen's $5.5M. I also rounded all salaries to nearest $500,000, signings in blue.

[1] R+SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
[2] L+LF - Eric Thames - $500,000
[3] R+RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
[4] L+1B - Prince Fielder - $25,000,000 (8 years at $25M per)
[5] R+3B - Brett Lawrie - $500,000
[6] L+CF - Colby Rasmus - $500,000
[7] R+DH - Edwin Encarnacion - $3,500,000
[8] L+2B - Kelly Johnson - $7,000,000 (1 year deal)
[9] R+CA - JP Arencibia - $500,000

Sub-Total: $56,500,000

[10] Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] Yu Darvish - $15,000,000 (5 years at $15M per, $45M posting fee)
[12] Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000
[13] Henderson Alvarez - $500,000
[14] Dustin McGowan - $1,500,000

Sub-Total: $25,500,000

[15] Jesse Litsch - $1,500,000
[16] Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000
[17] Luis Perez - $500,000
[18] Joel Carreno - $500,000
[19] Darren Oliver - $6,000,000 (Lefty Specialist) (1 year deal with options that become guaranteed with appearances)
[20] Matt Capps - $3,000,000 (Set-Up Man) (1 year deal with club option)
[21] Casey Janssen - $2,000,000 (Closer)

Sub-Total: $15,500,000

[22] Ramon Hernandez - $4,000,000 (Back-up Catcher) (1 year deal with a club option)
[23] John McDonald - $1,500,000 (Defensive Replacement) (1 year deal with coaching duties in 2013)
[24] Rajai Davis - $3,000,000 (Pinch Runner)
[25] Adam Lind - $5,000,000 (Lefty Bat)

Sub-Total: $14,000,000
Grand Total: $111,000,000

BlueJaysFan
09-08-2011, 05:26 PM
so are you a guy or a girl?

town123
09-08-2011, 05:28 PM
2B - Hanley Ramirez - $17,000,000
SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
1B - Prince Fielder - $22,000,000
3B - Brett Lawrie - $400,000
DH -Carnation Milk- $3,500,000
CF - Colby Rasmus - $400,000
CA - JP Arencibia - $400,000
LF - Eric Thames/Travis Snider - $400,000

Subtotal: $62,600,000
Total So Far: $62,600,000

Quote:
[10] 1 - Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] 2 - Yu Darvish - $14,000,000
[12] 3 - Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000*
[13] 4 - Henderson Alvarez - $400,000
[14] 5 - Dustin McGowan - $1,500,000*

Subtotal: $24,400,000
Total So Far: $87,000,000

[15] (Reliever) Jesse Litsch - $1,500,000*
[16] (Reliever) Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000*
[17] (Reliever) Luis Perez - $400,000
[18] (Reliever) Joel Carreno - $400,000
[19] (Specialist) Hideki Okajima - $2,500,000
[20] (Set-Up) Casey Janssen - $2,000,000*
[21] (Closer) Joel Zumaya- $2,000,000

Subtotal: $10,800,000
Total So Far: $97,800,000

[22] (Catcher) Brian Jerolman- $400,000
[23] (Utility 1) John McDonald - $2,000,000
[24] (Utility 2) Eric Thames/Travis Snider- $600,000
[25] Open Spot (Drabek, Carlson, Loewen, 400k)

sub total 3,400,000

total - $101,200,000

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:29 PM
My effort below. For what it's worth I don't think you can just ignore the commitment to Lind and Davis so I included them and I also kept room (almost) for Teahen's $5.5M. I also rounded all salaries to nearest $500,000, signings in blue.

Sub-Total: $14,000,000
Grand Total: $111,000,000
I like it!

I wouldn't really ignore Lind, Davis and Teahen, I'd trade them for prospects, etc. I think Lind and Davis could both fetch something and if Teahen doesn't, I really don't mind DFA'ing him or buying out his contract to dump him.

I kept Wise over Davis because I think Davis is only really useful for his baserunning speed and that can only be depended on in a pinch runner role. I wouldn't trust him with a bat in a clutch situation, nor in the field (over Wise). I might drop both of em for McCoy, only because McCoy still has less than 3 years of service time and costs less than 500K, and he's like a young Johnny Mac. In any case, I wouldn't let go of McCoy, I'd demote him if there wasn't roster space.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm switching my loogy from Hideki Okajima to George Sherrill.

jaysnraptors44
09-08-2011, 05:41 PM
Lol, I think he'll be a good DH for three years :P
+ He's a switch hitter!

I was debating between him and Ortiz and Ortiz would be really fun because we'd get to put him up against the Red Sox, but I still went for Berkman.

There won't be many bidders for Berkman and if STL can sign Pujols I doubt they'll re-sign Lance. I think he's got a little steam left in the engine. I'd have him DH for 3 years and then let him go. That relieves 15M off his salary for some of these rookies that'll be eligible for arbitration. At this point if Fielder wants to DH, you give him the role, and if not, you let a filler player or upcoming rookies use the role to platoon until Fielder wants it.

I also think 15M is the absolute most it'll cost to sign him. I can see him signing for 33/3.

With Berkman in the line-up, the above roster gives us 4 Righties, 4 Lefties and a switch hitter as the starting 9.

i said eww because of him in the AL east no question he is a good player but last year when the yanks acquired him he just played horrible

2009mvp
09-08-2011, 05:42 PM
I get the idea behind everything but Okajima and Varitek. They both stink. Hell Okajima wasn't even all that good against lefties when he was healthy.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:42 PM
i said eww because of him in the AL east no question he is a good player but last year when the yanks acquired him he just played horrible

He was on the Yanks last year? :o

LOL Sorry I skipped watching baseball completely last year.



sub total 3,400,000

total - $101,200,000

I like it, but I'm curious what you would trade for Hanley.

13Lawrie13
09-08-2011, 05:43 PM
Well, a couple things.

First of all, Davis would be great off the bench so to get rid of him wouldn't make any sense.

Second of all, Broxton at 9 million!? Not a chance he goes for that much. I'd be shocked if he got any more than 5 million.

Oh, and Lance Berkman? No thanks. Not a terrible idea, but not a great one in my opinion.

I would post my own, but I really don't have the time.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:43 PM
I get the idea behind everything but Okajima and Varitek. They both stink. Hell Okajima wasn't even all that good against lefties when he was healthy.

Yeah I switched Okajma for Sherrill. I like him better.

I only have Varitek because of his vet presence to help the younger guys, and partially to spite the Red Sox.

es0terik
09-08-2011, 05:50 PM
First of all, Davis would be great off the bench so to get rid of him wouldn't make any sense.
I get rid of him because of his poor defense and because I think we can get something for him. I only have Wise until we're ready to call up a minor leaguer in that spot. He'd be treated like McCoy was this year.


Second of all, Broxton at 9 million!? Not a chance he goes for that much. I'd be shocked if he got any more than 5 million.
Really? I mean I know he's had a bad year but he's still only 27 and the closer market is pretty thin. I'd prefer him over Heath Bell. But yeah I see where you're getting at, I knew he was doing less-than-stellar this season but I didn't realize how much his xFIP had spiked from his career numbers.

How much do you think it would cost to sign K-Rod?

town123
09-08-2011, 07:23 PM
He was on the Yanks last year? :o

LOL Sorry I skipped watching baseball completely last year.



I like it, but I'm curious what you would trade for Hanley.

I'm putting Hanley in the Rasmus and Escobar catagory as far as probably being able to buy somewhat lower than value. Florida may or may not be interested in a few of 'our buy lows' of Snider, Cecil, Lind and Drabek. I'm thinking if you had them choose 3 of these 4 players and add either a Deck or a Syndergaard it might work. The only middle inf we have in the minors is Hech and I don't think AA would move him in this type of deal.

From Florida's perspective their scouts would really have to love the original promise of Snider and Drabek to make this deal I believe.

What do you think?

rickyk13
09-08-2011, 07:38 PM
1. Yunel Escobar SS (5M)
2. Colby Rasmus CF (400k)
3. Jose Bautista RF (14M)
4. Prince Fielder DH (22M)
5.Brett Lawrie 3B (400k)
6. Adam Lind 1B (5M)
7. Logan Morrison LF (400k)
8. Kelly Johnson 2B (7M)
9. JP Arencibia C (400k)
54.6M

Trade Travis Snider and another spec for LoMo. As they both need a change of scenery but Logan is obviously a lot further along.
Resign Johnson
Sign Prince Fielder
Keep lind because I think he can be a very valuable #6 hitter and is a pretty good glove at first

Rotation
1.Romero (5M)
2.Buehrle (12M)
3.Drabek (400k)
4.Morrow (3.5M)
5.Mcgowan (1.5M)
22.4M

Try and sign the vet mark buerhle to go along with the young pitchers.
Alvarez can step in with injury

Bullpen
Jesse Litsch - $1,500,000*
Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000*
Luis Perez - $400,000
Joel Carreno - $400,000
George Sherrill - $2,500,000
Casey Janssen - $2,000,000*
Jonathan Broxton - $5,000,000
13.8M

I know bullpen is our weakness but i dont want to do it so i just stole someones

Bench
Davis (2.75)
Mccoy (600k)
Loewen (600k)
Molina (400k)

4.35


Total- 95.15M
Gives you lots of room to re sign these young guys to deals and build a dynasty

JMac4PM
09-08-2011, 07:38 PM
I'd keep the batting lineup the same... get Jmac back for thr bench along with Rajai, Molina, and Teahan, and get Mottola for hitting coach and get rid of Murphy.

leafsrule99
09-08-2011, 08:03 PM
I would do:

1. Yunel Escobar SS (5M)
2. Colby Rasmus LF (400k)
3. Jose Bautista RF (14M)
4. Prince Fielder DH (22M)
5.Brett Lawrie 3B (400k)
6. Adam Lind 1B (5M)
7. Matt Kemp CF (8M)
8. Kelly Johnson 2B (6M)
9. JP Arencibia C (400k)
62M

Rotation
1.Romero (5M)
2.C.J Wilson (12M)
3.Cecil (400k)
4.Morrow (3.5M)
5.Mcgowan (1.5M)
23M

Bullpen
Jesse Litsch - $1.5M
Carlos Villanueva - $2M
Luis Perez - $400k
Casey Janssen - $2M
Jon Rauch - $3.75M
Papelbon - 12M
21M

Bench
Davis (2.75)
Mcdonald (1.5 M)
Loewen (600k)
Molina (400k)
5M


All together about 112 Mil

es0terik
09-08-2011, 09:21 PM
@leafsrule99

Lol.. There's no way you get Matt Kemp from the Dodgers (I also kinda don't want him, he looks like a high maintenance douchey type), and there is NO WAY you sign Wilson for 12M. The guys looking at 18-20M a year.

leafsrule99
09-08-2011, 11:25 PM
really Wilson is 18-20 mil a year? I would say max 15 mil.

I like Kemp cause hes at his peak right now, but looks can be deceiving. If you think about it, the Jays players all look like the high maintenance guys with their gottis, side burns and beards

es0terik
09-08-2011, 11:38 PM
really Wilson is 18-20 mil a year? I would say max 15 mil.

I like Kemp cause hes at his peak right now, but looks can be deceiving. If you think about it, the Jays players all look like the high maintenance guys with their gottis, side burns and beards

When I say high maintenance I mean his douchey personality. It feels to me that if he was brought to the Jays, he'd still want to be treated like the MVP of the team and that guys like Bautista, Fielder and to some extent, hometown hero Lawrie would 'steal his thunder'.

And yes you've gotta believe with teams like the Red Sox and Yankees breathing heavily on the Rangers necks for the second they let Wilson go, his value will be driven up. People everywhere are predicting that he may easily get up to 100M. This is specifically why I don't want the Jays on the Wilson sweepstakes, he's too much of a risk. In my eyes, more of a risk than Darvish.

BreakinStixx
09-09-2011, 03:55 AM
Line-up:
#1: Hanley Ramirez (SS)-R (15,000,000)
#2: Yuniel Escobar (2B)-R (5,000,000)
#3: Jose Bautista (RF)-R (14,000,000)
#4: Prince Fielder (1B)-L (18,000,000)
#5: Brett Lawrie (3B)-R (425,000)
#6: Colby Rasmus (CF)-L (475,000)
#7: Edwin Encarnacion (DH)-R (3,750,000)
#8: Logan Morrison (LF)-L (450,000)
#9: J.P Arencibia (C)-R (475,000)

Bench:
#1: Rajai Davis (OF)-(2,750,000)
#2: John McDonald (IF)-(1,250,000)
#3: Mark Tehan (OF/IF)-(5,500,000)
#4: Jason Varitek (C)-(1,750,000)

SP:
#1: Josh Johnson (RHP)-(13,750,000)
#2: Ricky Romero (LHP)-(5,250,000)
#3: Brandon Morrow (RHP)-(4,250,000)
#4: Rich Harden (RHP)-(1,750,000)
#5: Henderson Alvarez (RHP)-(425,000)

RP:
LRP: Luis Perez-LHP-(400,000)
LRP: Jesse Litch-RHP-(450,000)
MRP: Dustin McGowan-RHP-(475,000)
MRP: Casey Janssen-RHP-(2,750,000)
SU: Kerry Wood-RHP-(2,500,000)
SU: Javier Lopez-LHP (2,500,000)
CP: Joe Nathan- RHP-(5,500,000)

Total = 108,825,000

Top Prospects in System:
1. Kyle Drabek -SP
2. Travis D’Arnaud -C
3. Anthony Gose-CF
4. Drew Hutchison -SP
5. Aaron Sanchez-SP
6. Adam Loewen-OF
7. Nestor Molina-SP
8. Carlos Perez-C
9. Jake Marisnick-OF
10. Daniel Norris-SP

Trade: Josh Johnson, Logan Morrison & Hanley Ramirez for Adam Lind, Eric Thames, Travis Snider, Adieny Hechavarria, Brett Cecil, Deck Maguire, Noah Syndergaard, Asher Wojciechowski

This trade sees 8 players traded to the Marlins for 3. Giving up 4 Prospects who won’t see the Majors until 2013 and 2 Players in Cecil & Lind who can play everyday, and 2 in Thames & Snider who are still trying to find themselves. The Marlins may consider moving Johnson & Hanley as they are both coming off injury plagued seasons. Morrison seems to need a change of scenery as there was some speculation he was not getting along with other players. Florida does not like to carry a high payroll and would save more than 20M in 2012. This allows them to stock the cupboards while Atlanta and Philadelphia make a run and lets them remain competitive.

Sign 1B Prince Fielder for 7yrs 126M (18M/Yr)
(Give an extra year to bring the cap hit below 20M)
Type A Free Agent (Lose 1st or 2nd Round pick dependant on record)

Sign CP Joe Nathan for 1yr 4.5M with a Club option for 2013 for 6.5M
(It’s unlikely that Minnesota picks up Nathan’s option for the 2012 Season)

Sign RP Kerry Wood for 1Yr 2.5M with a Club option for 2013 for 3.5M
Currently Type B Free Agent

Sign RP Javier Lopez for 2Yr 5M (2.5M/Yr) Club option for 2014 for 3.5M
Currently Type B Free Agent

Sign SP Rich Harden for 1Yr 1.75M with a Club option for 2013 for 2.75M
Currently neither A or B Free Agent

Sign C Jason Varitek for 1Yr 1.75M with a Club option for 2013 for 2.75M
Currently Type B Free Agent

Sign IF John McDonald for 1Yr 1.25M (Coach in 2013)

Let these Free Agents Walk for Draft Pick Compensation:
Kelly Johnson – Type A Currently but last on list (Could drop to B)
Frank Francisco-Type B
John Rauch – Type B
Jose Molina – Type B

Concerns:
* Starting off the line-up with 3 RH bats and JP batting out of 9th as a righty as well poses as a minor problem
* 4 RHP's in the Starting 5 with only 2 Left Arms in the Bullpen (Perez & Lopez)
* Hanley, Johnson & Nathan coming off injuries
* Having such a strong line-up may not leave any room for prospects to graduate
* Giving a 7th year to Fielder

Nuke
09-09-2011, 08:01 AM
Line-up:
#1: Hanley Ramirez (SS)-R (15,000,000)
#2: Yuniel Escobar (2B)-R (5,000,000)
#3: Jose Bautista (RF)-R (14,000,000)
#4: Prince Fielder (1B)-L (18,000,000)
#5: Brett Lawrie (3B)-R (425,000)
#6: Colby Rasmus (CF)-L (475,000)
#7: Edwin Encarnacion (DH)-R (3,750,000)
#8: Logan Morrison (LF)-L (450,000)
#9: J.P Arencibia (C)-R (475,000)

Sure Prince turned down 5/$100 and we're gonna sign him for 7/$126 :crazy:

I don't see Logan Morrison as anything better than Thames.

es0terik
09-09-2011, 09:26 AM
Yeah I don't think there's anyway you sign Fielder for 7/126, I also don't understand Lomo over Thames and find it hard to believe that the Marlins would give up Hanley for essentially no immediate major league compensation.

jamjar
09-09-2011, 09:40 AM
i'd prefer Thames over Morrison.

dunedinjays
09-09-2011, 11:07 AM
Trade: Josh Johnson, Logan Morrison & Hanley Ramirez for Adam Lind, Eric Thames, Travis Snider, Adieny Hechavarria, Brett Cecil, Deck Maguire, Noah Syndergaard, Asher Wojciechowski



lol. Yeah, right. Thats definitely quantity over quality

jaysdynastysoon
09-09-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm happy and confidant in our offense. Our problems this year was at cf, 3b, Hill at 2b but now that
we have fix that, we should get better production out of this line-up next year.

[1] R+SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
[2] L+LF - Eric Thames - $500,000
[3] R+RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
[4] L+1B - Adam Lind - $5,000,000 -- Add Votto later on ($20M a season?)
[5] R+3B - Brett Lawrie - $500,000
[6] L+CF - Colby Rasmus - $500,000
[7] R+DH - Edwin Encarnacion - $3,500,000
[8] L+2B - Kelly Johnson - $7,000,000 (1 year deal) -- until real replacement, who???
[9] R+CA - JP Arencibia - $500,000

Total: $36,500,000 - $51.5M Votto added

I would either get Votto at the dead-line or wait till next free agency to get him. I'd inquire about
Hanley but I know the price would be too steep.

I am willing to wait on improving the line-up. My main focus would be to have a solid, reliable
pitching staff. That way we don't have to depend on our offense like we do this year to win us games.

[10] Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] CJ Wilson - $18,000,000 OR obtain a starter through trade***
[12] Yu Darvish - $14,000,000
[13] Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000
[14] Henderson Alvarez - $500,000


Total: $41,000,000

[15] Dustin McGowan - $1,500,000
[16] Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000
[17] Luis Perez - $500,000
[18] Joel Carreno - $500,000
[19] Matt Capps - $3,000,000 (1 year deal with club option)
[20] Casey Janssen - $2,000,000 (Set-Up Man)
[21] Jonathan Papelbon - $12,000,000 (Closer)

Total: $21,500,000

[22] Jose Molina - $1,200,000
[23] Mark Teahen - 5.5M
[24] Rajai Davis - 2.75M
[25] Loewen - 400k

Total: $9,800,000

I know nothing changes on our bench players BUT I would really focus on improving it. I don't want to
have Mike Mccoy as our best/only option coming off the bench. Having a weak bench has hurt us this
year, so its a major concern to upgrade.

*** I know this may seem impossible but I would try to get Felix Hernandez. I know ownership/management has outright said to the media that hes not
moving but behind close doors I'm sure they are open to offers. You never know, they could be saying one thing but willing to otherwise if the right offer comes.

An offer of:

d'Arnaud, Hutchinson, Snider, Drabek (wait for both of their stock to rise), Hech

I know that maybe be too much or not much (depending on how you value them) but the benefits of having an Ace like felix and him helping
Alverez in becoming an ace can make this team into contenders instantly. Simply I would trade alot to get him.

Maybe be creative and trade Lind, Morrow for prospect(s) or players that Seattle would want OR take on Figgins contract and give them Teahen if it means
we don't have to trade that many quality prospects for him.

Having $62 Million in savings would be enticing for them. With the prospects they get and having at least $15 mil to spend each year on Draft picks and
international signings they could build really fast. I just don't see the reasoning behind keeping Felix when their not good enough to contend throughout
his contract.


Grand Total: $109,000,000

Nica
09-09-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm happy and confidant in our offense. Our problems this year was at cf, 3b, Hill at 2b but now that
we have fix that, we should get better production out of this line-up next year.

[1] R+SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
[2] L+LF - Eric Thames - $500,000
[3] R+RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
[4] L+1B - Adam Lind - $5,000,000 -- Add Votto later on ($20M a season?)
[5] R+3B - Brett Lawrie - $500,000
[6] L+CF - Colby Rasmus - $500,000
[7] R+DH - Edwin Encarnacion - $3,500,000
[8] L+2B - Kelly Johnson - $7,000,000 (1 year deal) -- until real replacement, who???
[9] R+CA - JP Arencibia - $500,000

Total: $36,500,000 - $51.5M Votto added

I would either get Votto at the dead-line or wait till next free agency to get him. I'd inquire about
Hanley but I know the price would be too steep.

I am willing to wait on improving the line-up. My main focus would be to have a solid, reliable
pitching staff. That way we don't have to depend on our offense like we do this year to win us games.

[10] Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] CJ Wilson - $18,000,000 OR obtain a starter through trade***
[12] Yu Darvish - $14,000,000
[13] Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000
[14] Henderson Alvarez - $500,000


Total: $41,000,000

[15] Dustin McGowan - $1,500,000
[16] Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000
[17] Luis Perez - $500,000
[18] Joel Carreno - $500,000
[19] Matt Capps - $3,000,000 (1 year deal with club option)
[20] Casey Janssen - $2,000,000 (Set-Up Man)
[21] Jonathan Papelbon - $12,000,000 (Closer)

Total: $21,500,000

[22] Jose Molina - $1,200,000
[23] Mark Teahen - 5.5M
[24] Rajai Davis - 2.75M
[25] Loewen - 400k

Total: $9,800,000

I know nothing changes on our bench players BUT I would really focus on improving it. I don't want to
have Mike Mccoy as our best/only option coming off the bench. Having a weak bench has hurt us this
year, so its a major concern to upgrade.

*** I know this may seem impossible but I would try to get Felix Hernandez. I know ownership/management has outright said to the media that hes not
moving but behind close doors I'm sure they are open to offers. You never know, they could be saying one thing but willing to otherwise if the right offer comes.

An offer of:

d'Arnaud, Hutchinson, Snider, Drabek (wait for both of their stock to rise), Hech

I know that maybe be too much or not much (depending on how you value them) but the benefits of having an Ace like felix and him helping
Alverez in becoming an ace can make this team into contenders instantly. Simply I would trade alot to get him.

Maybe be creative and trade Lind, Morrow for prospect(s) or players that Seattle would want OR take on Figgins contract and give them Teahen if it means
we don't have to trade that many quality prospects for him.

Having $62 Million in savings would be enticing for them. With the prospects they get and having at least $15 mil to spend each year on Draft picks and
international signings they could build really fast. I just don't see the reasoning behind keeping Felix when their not good enough to contend throughout
his contract.


Grand Total: $109,000,000

I refuse to acknowledge any Roster without Johnny Mac as the utility infielder ;)
But I do agree pitching is how you build a winner.

es0terik
09-09-2011, 02:48 PM
I don't go after Wilson. I see him as a bigger risk than Darvish. Wilson is already into his 30s. He's just become a starter, and I still think that the sample size is too small for a 100M contract. If I'm dishing out 100M for a player, I want to see more than two good years. Whether or not Darvish can cut it in the majors remains to be seen. What he has proved though is that he is damn talented and incredibly consistent. Instead of signing Wilson and Darvish both, I take Darvish alone and leave the fifth spot up for grabs by McGowan and prospects. It makes no sense to fully load the rotation with so many prospects in the farm that will eventually need to prove themselves, especially with a guy like Wilson, who may very well turn into a 20M liability. If anything, I'd rather give the spot to someone like Harden. or that Japanese guy the Orioles bid on last year. Though I'd still prefer to keep one spot open.

And trading for Votto won't give you a Lind+20M contract. Votto is only 9.5M next year.

wagnall
09-09-2011, 03:11 PM
Finally I got time to play. Love this thread but I just haven't got the patience some of you have to put all together. But a good thread to read over.

I comment I'd like to make is living down here for a while anywa, theres 0 chance we get Morrison as at 24 and 21 year old Stanton in RF they want him in LF. longterm.

As for Hanley, the fans have this hate on for him but still say they don't want him to go. However he would be easier to get then Morrison.

Just what I hear and read down here. That doesn't mean I think we should go after him though.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-09-2011, 03:41 PM
so are you a guy or a girl?

I was wondering the same thing

Towelie
09-09-2011, 04:15 PM
I don't go after Wilson. I see him as a bigger risk than Darvish. Wilson is already well into his 30s. He's just become a starter, and I still think that the sample size is too small for a 100M contract. If I'm dishing out 100M for a player, I want to see more than two good years. Whether or not Darvish can cut it in the majors remains to be seen. What he has proved though is that he is damn talented and incredibly consistent. Instead of signing Wilson and Darvish both, I take Darvish alone and leave the fifth spot up for grabs by McGowan and prospects. It makes no sense to fully load the rotation with so many prospects in the farm that will eventually need to prove themselves, especially with a guy like Wilson, who may very well turn into a 20M liability. If anything, I'd rather give the spot to someone like Harden. or that Japanese guy the Orioles bid on last year. Though I'd still prefer to keep one spot open.

And trading for Votto won't give you a Lind+20M contract. Votto is only 9.5M next year.

Sorry but your crazy to think Wilson has more risk then Darvish. Wilson has less miles on his arm even being older due to him being in relief. You're saying he's just been a starter with 685.2 innings in one of the hardest parks in baseball for a pitcher. Then you got Darvish with 792.1 (not including this season) innings, and has proven nothing and will cost more with the posting fee, with the unknown of what a disaster he can be. You say you want more then two years of being proven and you have that with Wilson, he's been great in relief and even better as a starter. Darvish has proven nothing. I don't think any of it matters however cause I think CJ will re-sign with Texas.

13Lawrie13
09-09-2011, 05:00 PM
Line-up:
#1: Hanley Ramirez (SS)-R (15,000,000)
#2: Yuniel Escobar (2B)-R (5,000,000)
#3: Jose Bautista (RF)-R (14,000,000)
#4: Prince Fielder (1B)-L (18,000,000)
#5: Brett Lawrie (3B)-R (425,000)
#6: Colby Rasmus (CF)-L (475,000)
#7: Edwin Encarnacion (DH)-R (3,750,000)
#8: Logan Morrison (LF)-L (450,000)
#9: J.P Arencibia (C)-R (475,000)


A couple things here.

Moving Hanley to second makes more sense. Escobar is the superior defender, and Hanley's bat plays great at second-base.

Prince Fielder for 18 million? I wish. He's going to get a heck of a lot more than that.

I really wish I had time to do one of these. I may this weekend, but it's looking like it's going to be a busy one.

I'll have to wait and see.

es0terik
09-09-2011, 05:27 PM
Sorry but your crazy to think Wilson has more risk then Darvish. Wilson has less miles on his arm even being older due to him being in relief.
This is exactly why I think he's more of a risk. He's 30 years old with only 680 innings under his belt, I don't know if this is necessarily a good thing. Does he have the conditioning to continue on his ace-like pace? How would anybody know? What guarantee do you have that he won't eventually get tired or overworked? Especially as he ages? He doesn't have the endurance of any other starter his age.


You're saying he's just been a starter with 685.2 innings in one of the hardest parks in baseball for a pitcher. Then you got Darvish with 792.1 (not including this season) innings, and has proven nothing and will cost more with the posting fee, with the unknown of what a disaster he can be.
I'm saying that? When did I say that? If I did, I'd be wrong. I'm saying he's just been a starter with 405 innings, not 685. The remaining 280 are in relief. And why are you discounting Darvish's innings from this year?

nikkan: Nippon Ham Fighters right-hander Yu Darvish records his 1,000th strikeouts. 7th fastest in NPB history (of 129 players) in 1,058 and 2/3 innings. April 28, 2011

On April 28, he apparently had 1,058 innings pitched.


Darvish has proven nothing.
This is the funniest thing in your post. Darvish has proven nothing? Did you forget about the World Baseball Classic? Or did you not know about it at all? Neither of those things would be surprising. And Darvish is not somebody that you really need proven to be convinced he's good. Whether you pitch in Japan or whether you pitch in USA, some things don't change. The inhuman movement on his pitchers doesn't change based on where he plays. His diverse arsenal or strike-able pitches doesn't change, the speed at which he throws his pitches doesn't change, the consistency with which he performs doesn't change. None of this is dependent on which league you play. The only question is whether he will have success here or not, and I'd bet a hundred million dollars that he'll have success here. There's no need to be sour about Darvish, fellow Red Sox fan, he isn't Dice-K.

craigerlee
09-09-2011, 05:44 PM
I'm not very interested in going after Darvish, the lack of success of any Japanese pitcher in this league really scares me. Kevin Goldstein and Keith Law have both stated in chats and on twitter that they think Darvish's ceiling is 2/3 starter. For 100M+ investment I want an ace.

wagnall
09-09-2011, 05:49 PM
^ agree

es0terik
09-09-2011, 05:54 PM
I'm not very interested in going after Darvish, the lack of success of any Japanese pitcher in this league really scares me. Kevin Goldstein and Keith Law have both stated in chats and on twitter that they think Darvish's ceiling is 2/3 starter. For 100M+ investment I want an ace.

What is the most you'd pay for a Number 2 starter?

jaysnraptors44
09-09-2011, 06:03 PM
i don't want c.j wilson here

es0terik
09-09-2011, 06:17 PM
You know what I'm thinking...?

If for some reason Anthopoulos comes to the conclusion that he absolutely does not want Darvish. What if....

What if in the most ultimate, abrasive, inhumanly dickish move ever made by man, AA puts in a 70M bid for Darvish's rights, and then offers him $20 for 5 years? If Darvish signs for $4.00 a year, great. If he doesn't, you basically guarantee that the Sox and Yanks don't get him. I know you basically stick voodoo pins in Darvish's back and play his soul like a lifeless puppet, but you still make sure the Yanks don't get him :)

Gosh, such a disgusting thought. :( But so deliciously evil :)

Bearclaw
09-09-2011, 06:20 PM
You know what I'm thinking...?

If for some reason Anthopoulos comes to the conclusion that he absolutely does not want Darvish. What if....

What if in the most ultimate, abrasive, inhumanly dickish move ever made by man, AA puts in a 70M bid for Darvish's rights, and then offers him $20 for 5 years? If Darvish signs for $4.00 a year, great. If he doesn't, you basically guarantee that the Sox and Yanks don't get him. I know you basically stick voodoo pins in Darvish's back and play his soul like a lifeless puppet, but you still make sure the Yanks don't get him :)

Gosh, such a disgusting thought. :( But so deliciously evil :)

ultimate troll.

But are you sure if you buy his rights he can't sign with any other team?

Towelie
09-09-2011, 07:02 PM
This is exactly why I think he's more of a risk. He's 30 years old with only 680 innings under his belt, I don't know if this is necessarily a good thing. Does he have the conditioning to continue on his ace-like pace? How would anybody know? What guarantee do you have that he won't eventually get tired or overworked? Especially as he ages? He doesn't have the endurance of any other starter his age.

30 isn't old for a starter and has very little miles on the arm. He's consistently been the best pitcher the Rangers have right now, not injury prone (did before not so much now), His ERA/FIP/xFIP line of 3.08/3.07/3.43



I'm saying that? When did I say that? If I did, I'd be wrong. I'm saying he's just been a starter with 405 innings, not 685. The remaining 280 are in relief. And why are you discounting Darvish's innings from this year?

405 IP is nothing but working in his favor. One season can be a fluke but doing even better the next season means he's legit. I discounted it cause the Stats aren't listed for it on BR.



nikkan: Nippon Ham Fighters right-hander Yu Darvish records his 1,000th strikeouts. 7th fastest in NPB history (of 129 players) in 1,058 and 2/3 innings. April 28, 2011

On April 28, he apparently had 1,058 innings pitched.

Look out! Nippon fighters he's amazing, means nothing in the Majors.



This is the funniest thing in your post. Darvish has proven nothing? Did you forget about the World Baseball Classic? Or did you not know about it at all? Neither of those things would be surprising. And Darvish is not somebody that you really need proven to be convinced he's good. Whether you pitch in Japan or whether you pitch in USA, some things don't change. The inhuman movement on his pitchers doesn't change based on where he plays. His diverse arsenal or strike-able pitches doesn't change, the speed at which he throws his pitches doesn't change, the consistency with which he performs doesn't change. None of this is dependent on which league you play. The only question is whether he will have success here or not, and I'd bet a hundred million dollars that he'll have success here. There's no need to be sour about Darvish, fellow Red Sox fan, he isn't Dice-K.

WBC?!?! :laugh: His WBC stats was 2-1 with a 2.08 ERA and 20 strikeouts in 13 innings. Look out sample size! Japan vs China, South Korea, and the US. Mainly coming in for relief. Vs South Korea he wasn't good at all.

Yea, care to tell me the things that don't change? Cause Culture, Workouts, Days off, Talent, coaches, languages, all change and last I checked thats pretty important to be a good pitcher. Last I checked the way he throws very much can change if there are problems in the delivery and if he starts to get lit up. Things in baseball always change and adjustments are always happening.

I never once made mention to Dice K, but he's a prime example. Tons of hype with really one and half great seasons. Don't forget Dice K was WBC MVP if you wanna talk about the WBC. Dice K had problems with the pitching schedule, had issues with his workouts, and had issues with communication.

I'd bet 100% CJ will have the better career, he's proven despite what you say and Darvish has done nothing in the majors, or against anyone that matters. Playing a WBC game against the US coming in relief means nothing. You sit there and talk about how I don't know meanwhile Boston has signed the some of the most talent from Japan and they have almost all had issues.

Towelie
09-09-2011, 07:04 PM
You know what I'm thinking...?

If for some reason Anthopoulos comes to the conclusion that he absolutely does not want Darvish. What if....

What if in the most ultimate, abrasive, inhumanly dickish move ever made by man, AA puts in a 70M bid for Darvish's rights, and then offers him $20 for 5 years? If Darvish signs for $4.00 a year, great. If he doesn't, you basically guarantee that the Sox and Yanks don't get him. I know you basically stick voodoo pins in Darvish's back and play his soul like a lifeless puppet, but you still make sure the Yanks don't get him :)

Gosh, such a disgusting thought. :( But so deliciously evil :)

You'd be delaying him by a year.....thats it. They wouldn't win the bid again if it did happen.

craigerlee
09-09-2011, 07:28 PM
What is the most you'd pay for a Number 2 starter?

Something like 10M per max, but i'd never give him more than a 5 year deal. Definitely wouldn't pay more than 50M for him. Thats why I kinda agree with you on CJ Wilson, I don't think he's an ace and 90M+ is a lot to dish out and not get an ace.

Towelie
09-09-2011, 07:48 PM
Something like 10M per max, but i'd never give him more than a 5 year deal. Definitely wouldn't pay more than 50M for him. Thats why I kinda agree with you on CJ Wilson, I don't think he's an ace and 90M+ is a lot to dish out and not get an ace.

Sorry but in the market the way it is, 10 million is peanuts for a number 2 guy in FA, and CJ has been worth 17.6 million and 21.6 million in both seasons of being a starter. So 10 million would be a bargain. Hell he's making 7 million right now! Ace's don't make 90 million they make 100+ million. CJ will get a 5 year 85 million dollar deal and thats a great deal for him and the team that signs him.

craigerlee
09-09-2011, 09:28 PM
Sorry but in the market the way it is, 10 million is peanuts for a number 2 guy in FA, and CJ has been worth 17.6 million and 21.6 million in both seasons of being a starter. So 10 million would be a bargain. Hell he's making 7 million right now! Ace's don't make 90 million they make 100+ million. CJ will get a 5 year 85 million dollar deal and thats a great deal for him and the team that signs him.

Thats why you trade for starters or develop them rather then buying them in FA. Tim Hudson probably one of the better #2 starters out there 3/28.

es0terik
09-09-2011, 10:11 PM
ultimate troll.

But are you sure if you buy his rights he can't sign with any other team?
Positive. He either signs or he goes back to Japan.

But yes, I still would go after Darvish.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-09-2011, 10:11 PM
Call me nuts and i know this shouldn't be an issue, but Romero and Wilson back to back just doesn't excite me. 2 lefty's i mean its probably been done before but that would mean we have 3 lefty's and 2 righty's in the rotation.

es0terik
09-09-2011, 10:18 PM
Call me nuts and i know this shouldn't be an issue, but Romero and Wilson back to back just doesn't excite me.
This. I don't know why, I just can't seem to muster up any excitement at all over Wilson.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Thats why you trade for starters or develop them rather then buying them in FA. Tim Hudson probably one of the better #2 starters out there 3/28.

You using one person as a example. To say "Just develop, don't sign a pitcher for more then 10 million a season" is very foolish. Not to mention when Hudson signed that obvious home town discount, and he was 33 when he signed it. 2 years older then CJ. Look at the best rotations in baseball, this is usually the case. Two years ago this wasn't so much the case, but it is now.

Dan Haren: four-year, $44.75 Signed in August of 08 he was 27
AJ Burnett: 5 year, $82.5M he was 31
James Shields: four-year, $11.25 but makes 10+ million in the final year aka next year.
Josh Beckett: four-year, $68 was 30 when signed.
Jorge Del La Rosa: two-year, $21.5 was 29 when signed.
Arroyo: three-year, $35, was 33 when signed.
Nolasco: three-year, $26.5 27 when signed will be getting 10 million.
Wandy Rodriguez: 10+ million next year
Gallardo will even be making 10 million by 2013 with his deal.
Matt Cain: three-year, $27.5
Cliff Lee: 120 million with 5 years.

Thats 11 teams with a No.2 and 3 of them coming from the AL East. With the mentality of "Wait for the prospects" you will be waiting a while, and considering the biggest issue on the Jays is the rotation there will be no point in going after Fielder or anyone else. 30 teams and 1/3rd of them have that No 2 pitcher with 10 million, most consistent playoff teams as well.

craigerlee
09-10-2011, 10:42 AM
You using one person as a example. To say "Just develop, don't sign a pitcher for more then 10 million a season" is very foolish. Not to mention when Hudson signed that obvious home town discount, and he was 33 when he signed it. 2 years older then CJ. Look at the best rotations in baseball, this is usually the case. Two years ago this wasn't so much the case, but it is now.

Dan Haren: four-year, $44.75 Signed in August of 08 he was 27
AJ Burnett: 5 year, $82.5M he was 31
James Shields: four-year, $11.25 but makes 10+ million in the final year aka next year.
Josh Beckett: four-year, $68 was 30 when signed.
Jorge Del La Rosa: two-year, $21.5 was 29 when signed.
Arroyo: three-year, $35, was 33 when signed.
Nolasco: three-year, $26.5 27 when signed will be getting 10 million.
Wandy Rodriguez: 10+ million next year
Gallardo will even be making 10 million by 2013 with his deal.
Matt Cain: three-year, $27.5
Cliff Lee: 120 million with 5 years.

Thats 11 teams with a No.2 and 3 of them coming from the AL East. With the mentality of "Wait for the prospects" you will be waiting a while, and considering the biggest issue on the Jays is the rotation there will be no point in going after Fielder or anyone else. 30 teams and 1/3rd of them have that No 2 pitcher with 10 million, most consistent playoff teams as well.

So all the guys you mentioned except AJ and Lee(who's an ace not a 2) didn't get anything close to what Wilson will get. I agree I was too conservative with 10M, its probably more like you should pay 11-13M on a #2, but CJ is estimated to get 90M+ for 5 years so thats more than 18M+ which is a massive over pay on a #2 pitcher on the wrong side of 30. If you actually read my post properly I said trade or develop them. Braves obvious need to unload a pitcher this off season, why can't we make a trade with them for one of Hudson, Jurrgens, Minor or Hanson, I'm pretty sure at least one of them will be available. Considering Alavarez will be in the rotation next year and there's a good chance Hutch could be up by mid season next year, we won't be waiting forever on pitching, and if we sign Fielder who said we have to win next year, is he not still gonna be good 2013?

I'm surprised as Red Sox fan you aren't more sceptical of signing #2 starters on 5 year deals for way too much money. How's John Lackey working out for you guys?

leafsrule99
09-10-2011, 11:13 AM
we can always resign marcum @ about 10 mil a season

Towelie
09-10-2011, 11:20 AM
So all the guys you mentioned except AJ and Lee(who's an ace not a 2) didn't get anything close to what Wilson will get. I agree I was too conservative with 10M, its probably more like you should pay 11-13M on a #2, but CJ is estimated to get 90M+ for 5 years so thats more than 18M+ which is a massive over pay on a #2 pitcher on the wrong side of 30. If you actually read my post properly I said trade or develop them. Braves obvious need to unload a pitcher this off season, why can't we make a trade with them for one of Hudson, Jurrgens, Minor or Hanson, I'm pretty sure at least one of them will be available. Considering Alavarez will be in the rotation next year and there's a good chance Hutch could be up by mid season next year, we won't be waiting forever on pitching, and if we sign Fielder who said we have to win next year, is he not still gonna be good 2013?

I'm surprised as Red Sox fan you aren't more sceptical of signing #2 starters on 5 year deals for way too much money. How's John Lackey working out for you guys?

Lee is the number 2 on that team. Thats not the point as to what CJ Wilson will get you said paying over 10 million thats your whole argument that a No2 isn't worth 10 million only an ace is. I stated in 1999 that was probably true but it's not today.

How is CJ on the wrong side of 30? He's 31! :laugh: and has the innings of a 27 year old! He's been worth over 20 million per year war value. Then you talk about signing Fielder who's got the body of a 40 year old and you wanna talk about the wrong side of age he's 27 and has had many issues with Diet and team trainers. Then you don't want to go 5 years well Fielder is going to 7-8 years and even more money, not to mention hitting isn't the issue with the Jays again it's pitching, thats the problem.

Why does Atlanta need to unload pitching? They don't need to do that at all, plus Hanson would be one of the last to go. Minor would be the pitcher to go due to pretty obvious reasons, and isn't even close to what CJ Wilson would bring. Trading a player can have the same effect as signing a pitcher with a larger contract. Plus CJ Wilson for 100 million wouldn't even be an unmovable contract really, you don't seem to understand FA markets and the cost of players and worth of players.

Why do Jays posters on this forum get so upset then talk about the Red Sox. This isn't a conversation about the Red Sox, this is a conversation about signing pitcher for more then 10 million. Lackey isn't our No.2 he's our 3-4, Beckett is but good job anyways.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 11:26 AM
Also another point for CJ Wilson.

1.43 ERA vs Boston in 44 IP with 42 K's and a 1.07 WHIP .172 BAA
3.80 ERA vs Yankee's in 47IP with 17 K's and a 1.39 WHIP .236 BAA
2.25 ERA vs TB in 40 IP with 42 K's and a 1.13 WHIP and a .172 BAA

But yeah, he's not worth it.

craigerlee
09-10-2011, 11:44 AM
Lee is the number 2 on that team. Thats not the point as to what CJ Wilson will get you said paying over 10 million thats your whole argument that a No2 isn't worth 10 million only an ace is. I stated in 1999 that was probably true but it's not today.

How is CJ on the wrong side of 30? He's 31! :laugh: and has the innings of a 27 year old! He's been worth over 20 million per year war value. Then you talk about signing Fielder who's got the body of a 40 year old and you wanna talk about the wrong side of age he's 27 and has had many issues with Diet and team trainers. Then you don't want to go 5 years well Fielder is going to 7-8 years and even more money, not to mention hitting isn't the issue with the Jays again it's pitching, thats the problem.

Why does Atlanta need to unload pitching? They don't need to do that at all, plus Hanson would be one of the last to go. Minor would be the pitcher to go due to pretty obvious reasons, and isn't even close to what CJ Wilson would bring. Trading a player can have the same effect as signing a pitcher with a larger contract. Plus CJ Wilson for 100 million wouldn't even be an unmovable contract really, you don't seem to understand FA markets and the cost of players and worth of players.

Why do Jays posters on this forum get so upset then talk about the Red Sox. This isn't a conversation about the Red Sox, this is a conversation about signing pitcher for more then 10 million. Lackey isn't our No.2 he's our 3-4, Beckett is but good job anyways.

I admitted I undervalued a #2 starter, but I was only like 1M-2M off a season, and I said what you should pay them, not what they get in FA. You signed Lackey as a #2 and now he's not even a 3-4, so you've wasted tons of money is the point. Your taking where people slot into the rotation too literally, when I say ace or #2 I mean talent level. Hell by your definition Bruce Chen is an ace.

The right side of 30 is anything before 30 and the wrong side is anything after 30, seeing as he's 30 already that puts him on the wrong side of it. Its sad I have to explain this to you. Sure he's been worth 20M per year War value the last two years, does that mean he's gonna be for the next 5 years? I'm sure Lackey was worth 20M+ a year too. Its also gonna be a lot tougher pitching in the AL East where the divisional rivals actually have good offenses and don't have pitcher friendly ballparks.

Braves have two pitchers that are gonna be in that rotation by mid season next year in Teheran and Vizcaino. So they should move 2 pitchers, no one wants Lowe, so Minor and one of (Hudson, Hanson, and Jurgens) are likely to go.

2009mvp
09-10-2011, 12:06 PM
we can always resign marcum @ about 10 mil a season

There's gotta be a reason he wasn't receptive to extension talks with AA. Whatever it was I think we can assume he's gonna cost a ton.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 12:16 PM
I admitted I undervalued a #2 starter, but I was only like 1M-2M off a season, and I said what you should pay them, not what they get in FA. You signed Lackey as a #2 and now he's not even a 3-4, so you've wasted tons of money is the point. Your taking where people slot into the rotation too literally, when I say ace or #2 I mean talent level. Hell by your definition Bruce Chen is an ace.

If you wanna sit there and talk Ace's why bring up Lackey? He's never been one pretty much ever. Also he was signed to be our No3-No4. I guess once again you forget Beckett, Clay, and Lester cause all 3 were better previously to the signing IMO. I never once talked about what a ace is you're the one who sat there and said only Ace's deserve that money and thats simply not true or even close to it. Ace's earn about 20 million a season no. Ex: CC, Halladay, Lee, Lester, all are or going to be 20 million dollar pitchers.



The right side of 30 is anything before 30 and the wrong side is anything after 30, seeing as he's 30 already that puts him on the wrong side of it. Its sad I have to explain this to you. Sure he's been worth 20M per year War value the last two years, does that mean he's gonna be for the next 5 years? I'm sure Lackey was worth 20M+ a year too. Its also gonna be a lot tougher pitching in the AL East where the divisional rivals actually have good offenses and don't have pitcher friendly ballparks.

You picked to ignore it so I'll post it again.

Also another point for CJ Wilson.

1.43 ERA vs Boston in 44 IP with 42 K's and a 1.07 WHIP .172 BAA
3.80 ERA vs Yankee's in 47IP with 17 K's and a 1.39 WHIP .236 BAA
2.25 ERA vs TB in 40 IP with 42 K's and a 1.13 WHIP and a .172 BAA

But yeah, he's not worth it. Also HE PLAYS IN TEXAS! One of the most HR happy parks in baseball! You love to bring up Lackey cause he's one of the few that support your argument vs the many that will support mine. Lackey's last 20 million season was 2007 so no he wasn't signing in Boston under a 20 million WAR value. Was worth 15 million last season tho for the Red Sox so it doesn't support your argument, he did have value for us.




Braves have two pitchers that are gonna be in that rotation by mid season next year in Teheran and Vizcaino. So they should move 2 pitchers, no one wants Lowe, so Minor and one of (Hudson, Hanson, and Jurgens) are likely to go.

Braves value pitching more then almost any team in baseball I'll be surprised to see anyone get traded.

dunedinjays
09-10-2011, 12:25 PM
I admitted I undervalued a #2 starter, but I was only like 1M-2M off a season, and I said what you should pay them, not what they get in FA. You signed Lackey as a #2 and now he's not even a 3-4, so you've wasted tons of money is the point. Your taking where people slot into the rotation too literally, when I say ace or #2 I mean talent level. Hell by your definition Bruce Chen is an ace.

The right side of 30 is anything before 30 and the wrong side is anything after 30, seeing as he's 30 already that puts him on the wrong side of it. Its sad I have to explain this to you. Sure he's been worth 20M per year War value the last two years, does that mean he's gonna be for the next 5 years? I'm sure Lackey was worth 20M+ a year too. Its also gonna be a lot tougher pitching in the AL East where the divisional rivals actually have good offenses and don't have pitcher friendly ballparks.

Braves have two pitchers that are gonna be in that rotation by mid season next year in Teheran and Vizcaino. So they should move 2 pitchers, no one wants Lowe, so Minor and one of (Hudson, Hanson, and Jurgens) are likely to go.

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on that. They have no reason to rush their prospects and with the rotation being the major reason their in the playoffs, I wouldn't do a thing with that rotation.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't bet on that. They have no reason to rush their prospects and with the rotation being the major reason their in the playoffs, I wouldn't do a thing with that rotation.

Considering Lowe and Hudson's contracts are up soon, they have 0 motivation to do so.

North Yorker
09-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't bet on that. They have no reason to rush their prospects and with the rotation being the major reason their in the playoffs, I wouldn't do a thing with that rotation.

They have holes all over their lineup... 3B,SS,2B,LF, and most of their future pieces are LHH. They desperately need some good RHH position players, and trading some of their pitching is the best way to do it.

dunedinjays
09-10-2011, 12:45 PM
They have holes all over their lineup... 3B,SS,2B,LF, and most of their future pieces are LHH. They desperately need some good RHH position players, and trading some of their pitching is the best way to do it.

Uggla's salvaged what would have been a horrible season, Jones is doing alright for himself. They definitely could use a power bat and I could see them trading a guy like Minor but this team for two decades has been doing this through pitching and more pitching. I don't see that changing drastically anytime soon.

es0terik
09-10-2011, 12:46 PM
Lee is the number 2 on that team.
That's completely irrelevant. I'm pretty sure craig was talking about talent level, not the exact position a pitcher is pitching. Lee is 2 on that team but would be 1 (even higher if it was possible) on any other. Same thing with their Number 3, Hamels. They could all be making 20M each and it would still make sense.


How is CJ on the wrong side of 30? He's 31! :laugh: and has the innings of a 27 year old! He's been worth over 20 million per year war value. Then you talk about signing Fielder who's got the body of a 40 year old and you wanna talk about the wrong side of age he's 27 and has had many issues with Diet and team trainers. Then you don't want to go 5 years well Fielder is going to 7-8 years and even more money
Why the hell are you comparing Fielder to Wilson? Wilson is a pitcher. Everybody already knows the huge host of risks and issues that come with a pitcher. There's no DH for pitchers.


Trading a player can have the same effect as signing a pitcher with a larger contract.
That is almost never the case. Just because your team treats trades like FA signings, doesn't mean everybody else does.


Plus CJ Wilson for 100 million wouldn't even be an unmovable contract really
Neither would Darvish. Darvish would actually be easier to move in a bust situation because the team taking him would only be paying a pitcher in his 20s, 10-12M a year. If Wilson busts he's a 20M, 32 year old liability. That isn't unmovable?


Lackey isn't our No.2 he's our 3-4, Beckett is but good job anyways.
Yeah really, good job. By reminding us that Lackey isn't even your No.2 starter, it makes his garbage contract look even worse. Good job.

craigerlee
09-10-2011, 01:10 PM
If you wanna sit there and talk Ace's why bring up Lackey? He's never been one pretty much ever. Also he was signed to be our No3-No4. I guess once again you forget Beckett, Clay, and Lester cause all 3 were better previously to the signing IMO. I never once talked about what a ace is you're the one who sat there and said only Ace's deserve that money and thats simply not true or even close to it. Ace's earn about 20 million a season no. Ex: CC, Halladay, Lee, Lester, all are or going to be 20 million dollar pitchers.



You picked to ignore it so I'll post it again.

Also another point for CJ Wilson.

1.43 ERA vs Boston in 44 IP with 42 K's and a 1.07 WHIP .172 BAA
3.80 ERA vs Yankee's in 47IP with 17 K's and a 1.39 WHIP .236 BAA
2.25 ERA vs TB in 40 IP with 42 K's and a 1.13 WHIP and a .172 BAA

But yeah, he's not worth it. Also HE PLAYS IN TEXAS! One of the most HR happy parks in baseball! You love to bring up Lackey cause he's one of the few that support your argument vs the many that will support mine. Lackey's last 20 million season was 2007 so no he wasn't signing in Boston under a 20 million WAR value. Was worth 15 million last season tho for the Red Sox so it doesn't support your argument, he did have value for us.




Braves value pitching more then almost any team in baseball I'll be surprised to see anyone get traded.

Well how about Johan Santana, Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Barry Zito, Jake Peavy, AJ Burnett, and Jason Schmidt. Is that enough evidence for you that signing free agent pitchers to long term deals is bad. I bring up Lackey cause he's one of the most recent and he's a Red Sox so I thought you'd relate better to it. Lackey was worth over 20M+ from 2005-2007 and worth 17.5 in 2009. Seeing as Lackey was paid almost 19M last year and he wasn't even worth 16M does support my argument that he hasn't lived up to his contract. I don't care whether he was the 3rd best on the Red Sox when you signed him, you paid him to be a at the very least a #2.

Almost Half the innings in those stats are from when he was a reliever, where its much easier to keep a low era. So just cause he's been really good in like 5 starts against the Red Sox and above average in 4 starts against the Yanks, I'm not ready to say he's gonna dominate the AL East.

Pretty sure the fact that he gets to play more games against the A's, Mariners, and Angels who are all in the bottom 3rd in runs scored and all have very pitcher friendly parks, cancels out any disadvantage he has playing in Texas, where is his era is over 4.

Also those WAR $ values are based on what they would make in FA, and one of my main points is that pitchers get overpaid in FA, so its better to develop them and or trade for ones under control as they get paid substantially less than what they should make in FA.

wamco
09-10-2011, 01:18 PM
There's gotta be a reason he wasn't receptive to extension talks with AA. Whatever it was I think we can assume he's gonna cost a ton.

-first time I've heard he wasn't receptive to extension talks. Always heard that he was interested. Last week HE said he was very surprised by the trade as the jays had just come to him the week or so prior about an extension.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 04:00 PM
That's completely irrelevant. I'm pretty sure craig was talking about talent level, not the exact position a pitcher is pitching. Lee is 2 on that team but would be 1 (even higher if it was possible) on any other. Same thing with their Number 3, Hamels. They could all be making 20M each and it would still make sense.

Talking about talent level all you want he's still the number 2 on that team. How is that even debatable? Last I checked who's the Cy Young on the team? Doc is not Lee. His point is 10 million for a number 2 pitcher, go ahead and take Lee out of the equation Beckett, and the others are a fine example of No 2 pitchers are going to cost money it happens, or you let them walk in FA.



Why the hell are you comparing Fielder to Wilson? Wilson is a pitcher. Everybody already knows the huge host of risks and issues that come with a pitcher. There's no DH for pitchers.

Cause your still handing out a contract doesn't matter what the position is a big contract for a big risk is worst still. Fielder is going to make more and DH doesn't always work, look at Adam Dunn. Fielders a even bigger risk for the obvious reasons of look at his weight. I think fielder is a great player but he's not going to be playing well with his body even at DH. Plus 20 million for a DH is a little much.



That is almost never the case. Just because your team treats trades like FA signings, doesn't mean everybody else does.

Really so Angels with Vernon Wells is working good right? Trades can have just as much downside only usually don't find that out until prospects have been done.



Neither would Darvish. Darvish would actually be easier to move in a bust situation because the team taking him would only be paying a pitcher in his 20s, 10-12M a year. If Wilson busts he's a 20M, 32 year old liability. That isn't unmovable?

How would he be easier to move? How did moving Dice K work out for the Sox? Not good. If Darvish is junk from the start he would have no value at all. Plus his posting Fee would be a sunk cost at that point so if you included his posting fee to Wilson, then Wilson would be even easier to move.You can't let go of Darvish at all and his posting fee is going to be massive, plus his regular contract. Where the hell is Wilson getting 20 million a season?!? Everyone is talking 5 years 80-90 million. Darvish is likely to cost just as much and once again hasn't pitched vs a full MLB team.

I'd very much be willing to put up a bet CJ Wilson will out WAR $ Darvish next year and by a wide margin.



Yeah really, good job. By reminding us that Lackey isn't even your No.2 starter, it makes his garbage contract look even worse. Good job.

He was never ever going to be our No. 2 ever so why do I care?


Well how about Johan Santana, Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Barry Zito, Jake Peavy, AJ Burnett, and Jason Schmidt. Is that enough evidence for you that signing free agent pitchers to long term deals is bad. I bring up Lackey cause he's one of the most recent and he's a Red Sox so I thought you'd relate better to it. Lackey was worth over 20M+ from 2005-2007 and worth 17.5 in 2009. Seeing as Lackey was paid almost 19M last year and he wasn't even worth 16M does support my argument that he hasn't lived up to his contract. I don't care whether he was the 3rd best on the Red Sox when you signed him, you paid him to be a at the very least a #2.

So what how we paid him? Whats expected vs whats paid doesn't matter. I expected him to be our 4th and he really is. He's been dealing with personal issues with his wife as well this season but still.

[/QUOTE]
Almost Half the innings in those stats are from when he was a reliever, where its much easier to keep a low era. So just cause he's been really good in like 5 starts against the Red Sox and above average in 4 starts against the Yanks, I'm not ready to say he's gonna dominate the AL East.[/QUOTE]

He has 400IP as a starter and and 279 in relief. So fine then I'll keep it going just to once again prove it.

Red Sox: 1.46 ERA in 14IP 2011 0.86 ERA in 21 IP in 2010

Even with him killing the Red Sox thats a hell of a ton better then how Romero does against them.



Pretty sure the fact that he gets to play more games against the A's, Mariners, and Angels who are all in the bottom 3rd in runs scored and all have very pitcher friendly parks, cancels out any disadvantage he has playing in Texas, where is his era is over 4.

ERA of 4.01 at home :laugh: You make it sound so awful. Just so your aware. xFIP at home is 3.43, and on the road it's 3.53. Again so there goes that argument.



Also those WAR $ values are based on what they would make in FA, and one of my main points is that pitchers get overpaid in FA, so its better to develop them and or trade for ones under control as they get paid substantially less than what they should make in FA.

I'm not even going to keep this going there's not point, keep the dream alive of not making what is a clear improvement in the rotation and has proven success. Fact is Red Sox, Yankee's, Phillies, have done FA well and Sox still have a good system, you act like it's one or the other here. It doesn't have to be.

Argue all you want by CJ Wilson is a great pitcher and will be worth the contract he gets.

craigerlee
09-10-2011, 04:46 PM
Talking about talent level all you want he's still the number 2 on that team. How is that even debatable? Last I checked who's the Cy Young on the team? Doc is not Lee.

No one debated that he wasn't the second best pitcher on the Phillies. Doesn't matter that Halladay is better than him, Phillies expect Lee to pitch like an ace, they're not paying him or expecting him to pitch like Matt Cain.


So what how we paid him? Whats expected vs whats paid doesn't matter. I expected him to be our 4th and he really is. He's been dealing with personal issues with his wife as well this season but still.


What's paid implies what's expected, he's getting paid like #1 starter, doesn't matter if there's 4 better pitchers than him on the roster, Boston expects him to pitch at least like a high end #2 at the very least which he's hasn't.


Red Sox: 1.46 ERA in 14IP 2011 0.86 ERA in 21 IP in 2010

Even with him killing the Red Sox thats a hell of a ton better then how Romero does against them.

Still a small sample size.


ERA of 4.01 at home You make it sound so awful. Just so your aware. xFIP at home is 3.43, and on the road it's 3.53. Again so there goes that argument.

Still a pretty decent size discrepancy in his era the last 2 years home and away. Not quite sure XFIP is telling us everything about how he pitches at home and away.


I'm not even going to keep this going there's not point, keep the dream alive of not making what is a clear improvement in the rotation and has proven success.

Never said it wouldn't be a clear improvement, my point was were going to over pay him by a lot and take huge risk on him, where I think its better to try and acquire pitching via trade. How does he have proven success he's put together a good walk year. His XFIP from 2010 was 4.06, that's alright but its not 90M+ contract worthy IMO.


Fact is Red Sox, Yankee's, Phillies, have done FA well and Sox still have a good system, you act like it's one or the other here. It doesn't have to be.

How has Boston done well in FA your best players are all either homegrown or you got them in trades for prospects you developed. Crawford has been awful this year, Lackey has been awful, and Daisuke was a terrible signing. You did really well with Ramirez, but majority of the guys you didn't grow you traded for and signed them to extensions. Jays aren't like the Phillies, Red Sox, or Yanks, were nowhere near as attractive a spot for FA's, and we don't have near the market size you have, and therefore can't paper over horrible mistakes we make in FA like the Red Sox, Phillies and Yanks can.

Noticed you never bothered to respond to all the examples of Free agent pitching contracts that have worked out awful for the teams who made them that I mentioned. You can look up a list of the biggest contracts handed out to FA pitchers and well over half of them haven't worked out or still have a chance of not working out. Why don't you come up with argument for that before you so confidently say CJ Wilson will be worth his contract.

dunedinjays
09-10-2011, 05:32 PM
How has Boston done well in FA your best players are all either homegrown or you got them in trades for prospects you developed. Crawford has been awful this year, Lackey has been awful, and Daisuke was a terrible signing. You did really well with Ramirez, but majority of the guys you didn't grow you traded for and signed them to extensions. Jays aren't like the Phillies, Red Sox, or Yanks, were nowhere near as attractive a spot for FA's, and we don't have near the market size you have, and therefore can't paper over horrible mistakes we make in FA like the Red Sox, Phillies and Yanks can.



Disagree. Just because people choose not to go to games in Toronto doesn't mean you don't have a large market. Toronto's market could easily match and even exceed the Phillies and Red Sox if they were actually competitive.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 05:55 PM
No one debated that he wasn't the second best pitcher on the Phillies. Doesn't matter that Halladay is better than him, Phillies expect Lee to pitch like an ace, they're not paying him or expecting him to pitch like Matt Cain.

No they're paying him to pitch like Cliff Lee and Cliff Lee only. Just like CJ Wilson will get paid to pitch like CJ Wilson, and if he continues then it's a deserved contract. He's pitched great and there is no reason to doubt him at this point. Everything he's done is consistent and proven to be great.



What's paid implies what's expected, he's getting paid like #1 starter, doesn't matter if there's 4 better pitchers than him on the roster, Boston expects him to pitch at least like a high end #2 at the very least which he's hasn't.


In what way is he going to get paid to be a No1? Right now he's Texas No1, and he's been that for two years. End of story.



Still a small sample size.


What does that matter, he's been great vs the Sox.



Still a pretty decent size discrepancy in his era the last 2 years home and away. Not quite sure XFIP is telling us everything about how he pitches at home and away.


Do you not understand xFip?



Never said it wouldn't be a clear improvement, my point was were going to over pay him by a lot and take huge risk on him, where I think its better to try and acquire pitching via trade. How does he have proven success he's put together a good walk year. His XFIP from 2010 was 4.06, that's alright but its not 90M+ contract worthy IMO.


What is worth a 90 million dollar contract? Do you not understand the type of baseball market we live in? Where Werth get 160 million over 7 years. Your in a world where these contracts get handed out now. I don't get how it's over paying him if thats the expected contract. Werth was a over payment he was never expect to make the cash he did. If CJ made Cliff Lee



How has Boston done well in FA your best players are all either homegrown or you got them in trades for prospects you developed. Crawford has been awful this year, Lackey has been awful, and Daisuke was a terrible signing. You did really well with Ramirez, but majority of the guys you didn't grow you traded for and signed them to extensions. Jays aren't like the Phillies, Red Sox, or Yanks, were nowhere near as attractive a spot for FA's, and we don't have near the market size you have, and therefore can't paper over horrible mistakes we make in FA like the Red Sox, Phillies and Yanks can.


JD Drew did great, Dice K was worth 44 million of his 52 million so value was there still. Crawford is a year into the contract. Bill Mueller was awesome, Kevin Millar was awesome. Adrian Beltre was an amazing signing. Ortiz Kinda worked out nice too.

To say the Jays are small market is ********, and nothing but an excuse.



Noticed you never bothered to respond to all the examples of Free agent pitching contracts that have worked out awful for the teams who made them that I mentioned. You can look up a list of the biggest contracts handed out to FA pitchers and well over half of them haven't worked out or still have a chance of not working out. Why don't you come up with argument for that before you so confidently say CJ Wilson will be worth his contract.

I didn't say anything cause it's a joke. CC, Doc, Josh Beckett, Cliff lee, Johan Santana, Ryan Dempster, Verlander, Dan Haren, All have signed an extension or were FA's that help. Not to mention the fact you'll always find "Top 10 worst signings" postings around the web. Wanna look up top prospects busts? Cause I bet it's more then half don't do anything. To sit there and saying signing as pitching via FA doesn't work out you can say the same for almost everything in baseball. Prospects don't workout, trades don't work out, thats how it is. CJ Wilson is less of a risk and has been consistent.

The Stats don't lie here. CJ Wilson would be the best pitcher the Jays would have on the Roster right now. Pitching is the Jays problem, and this is the quickest and best way to improve the staff.


CJ : xFIP 3.48 FIP:3.33 4.8 WAR HR/9 0.67 K/9 8.01 BB/9: 2.96
Ricky: xFIP 3.81 FIP:4.08 2.7 WAR HR/9 0.94 K/9: 7.37 BB/9: 3.46

Giving him a 4 year 75 or 5 year 85 contact I think is a good idea, compared to other options. Otherwise keeping up with the rest of the AL East isn't going to be easy and 4th place for another year is likely.

craigerlee
09-10-2011, 06:39 PM
^^^^I don't know how clear I can be on this:

Free Agent Pitcher Market = Over Pay for older pitchers with higher chance of injury and decline

Controllable Pitchers = Younger pitchers with team control who are more likely to sign cheaper extensions and possibly club options.

Verlander still had two years of club control left, he took an extension that's gonna be worth well below what he's gonna produce, same with Haren, so they weren't FA's. Oh and neither of them were 30 either. So there's no comparison to CJ Wilson there. Haren is exactly what I'm talking about trade for a good pitcher thats under control and lock him up. Oh and Cliff Lee a guy 1 year into 5 year deal is assured of living up to that contract? Also how has Johan Santana lived up to his contract? You do realize he's getting paid 20M+ a year and puts up much less than that in WAR$ and probably will continue to do that until that horrible contract is over. I gave you way more examples of FA pitchers that haven't lived up to their contract then you have of pitchers that have, so I don't know why you treated that like a joke.

Pitchers under control are usually willing to sign extensions for less than FA money cause they'd rather leave money on the table then risk injury or decline leading to less money then expected when they do reach FA. There's always the chance your career goes the way of Webb, Mulder and Sheets.

Like I said WAR$ is based on what they would get if they were FA's, and I have stated several times the FA market is extremely over priced, which is evident by how much cheaper it is to sign player under control to an extension rather than just sign an FA.

I'm done debating this, anyone that tries to pretend that Dice-K was anything less than terrible and was close to living up to his contract and posting fee really can't be reasoned with.

Towelie
09-10-2011, 07:02 PM
^^^^I don't know how clear I can be on this:

Free Agent Pitcher Market = Over Pay for older pitchers with higher chance of injury and decline

Controllable Pitchers = Younger pitchers with team control who are more likely to sign cheaper extensions and possibly club options.

Verlander still had two years of club control left, he took an extension that's gonna be worth well below what he's gonna produce, same with Haren, so they weren't FA's. Oh and neither of them were 30 either. So there's no comparison to CJ Wilson there. Haren is exactly what I'm talking about trade for a good pitcher thats under control and lock him up. Oh and Cliff Lee a guy 1 year into 5 year deal is assured of living up to that contract? Also how has Johan Santana lived up to his contract? You do realize he's getting paid 20M+ a year and puts up much less than that in WAR$ and probably will continue to do that until that horrible contract is over. I gave you way more examples of FA pitchers that haven't lived up to their contract then you have of pitchers that have, so I don't know why you treated that like a joke.

Pitchers under control are usually willing to sign extensions for less than FA money cause they'd rather leave money on the table then risk injury or decline leading to less money then expected when they do reach FA. There's always the chance your career goes the way of Webb, Mulder and Sheets.

Like I said WAR$ is based on what they would get if they were FA's, and I have stated several times the FA market is extremely over priced, which is evident by how much cheaper it is to sign player under control to an extension rather than just sign an FA.

I'm done debating this, anyone that tries to pretend that Dice-K was anything less than terrible and was close to living up to his contract and posting fee really can't be reasoned with.

Ok, then good luck with those young controllable pitchers. Been doing wonders this year so far. CJ Wilson would be one contract it wouldn't be a big deal really, but keep trying to find that ace in a prospect. I hear they come up all the time. You're right though, CJ's done everything to prove he's on the decline and won't be worth the contract.

Dice K's contract wasn't terrible, the only reason it's considered that bad is due to the rights we paid for him. Were we expecting more? 1 million percent yes, but hype is hype and results he produced weren't that bad at all. A career 4.25 ERA is anything but amazing but it's also not downright terrible either.

Johan's contract isn't that bad either. But apparently you have no idea what the market is at all, so doesn't really matter.

jaysnraptors44
09-10-2011, 07:07 PM
your a dumbass ^

Towelie
09-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Good point.

holdemboss11
09-10-2011, 08:05 PM
1. Lawrie 2B
2. Rasmus CF
3. Bautista 3B
4. Pujols 1B/DH
5. Lind 1b/DH
6. Willingham RF
7. Escobar SS
8. LF(Thames/Snider/Encarcion to be detrmined in spring training)
9. JP Arencbia C

Bench

10. 2nd place finisher in the Thames/Snider/Encarcion one of Snider/Thames to the minors as Edwin can't go down
11. Rajai Davis 4OF and pitch runner
12. Jose Molina or any decent back up catcher
13. Johny Mac utility infielder

Starting Rotation (after Romero order to be determined by spring training)

1. Ricky Romero
P. Dustin Mcgowan
P. Brandon Morrow
P. Brett Cecil or Kyle Drabek (decided in spring training)
P. Henderson Alvarez

Bullpen

Careno
Listch
Janzen
Perez
Villeneuva
Camp
Closer Heath Bell

Signings

Pujols what ever it take
Willingham 4 years 36 mil
backup Catcher peanuts
Johny Mac peanuts
Bell 4 years 50 mil
Camp peanuts

Movement

Lawrie is athletic enough to play 2b and there are no good 2b out there when he sees the moves we make he will go Hapilly
Bautista the good news is Pujols is batting behind you the bad news is your going back to 3rd he will go not 100% happy until we win 95 games lol
Edwin if you want to play go play LF and do it better then both Thames and Snider or you lose a lot of at bats

Hand me my executive of the year award lol:clap::):clap:

es0terik
09-10-2011, 11:08 PM
Talking about talent level all you want....
That entire post was pure incoherent rambling, so I'm not going to respond to any of it.

es0terik
09-11-2011, 01:30 AM
The funniest thing is when somebody defends Dice-K and says his contract wasn't terrible, while so dutifully shooting down the possibility of Darvish, who is slated to be much, much better than Daisuke ever was.

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 02:19 AM
Trade Cecil,Cooper& Snider for Votto & Drebek, Lind for Dan Bard
Sign Jose Reyes 60mil 4yrs Darvish 65mil 4yrs Heath Bell 20mil 3yrs & Jmac

es0terik
09-11-2011, 02:26 AM
Trade Cecil,Cooper& Snider for Votto & Drebek, Lind for Dan Bard
Sign Jose Reyes 60mil 4yrs Darvish 65mil 4yrs Heath Bell 20mil 3yrs & Jmac

:p

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 03:06 AM
:p

hey you made me GM they are all good adds no

es0terik
09-11-2011, 04:07 AM
hey you made me GM they are all good adds no

Yeah they are but I think it would cost a bit more to get those players is all.

Towelie
09-11-2011, 08:28 AM
The funniest thing is when somebody defends Dice-K and says his contract wasn't terrible, while so dutifully shooting down the possibility of Darvish, who is slated to be much, much better than Daisuke ever was.

Darvish is also going to have a much larger contract compared to Dice K due to inflation of contracts, and a weaker pitching FA market. I'm also not shooting down Darvish so you really need to get it. CJ Wilson will be a better signing then Darvish will be. I've said it over and over again. I'm so confident I'd be willing to throw a hundred bucks in a paypal account lock it until the end of the season and winner takes all, I'm gonna bet your not that confident. Do I think Darvish is going to pitch decent? Yea, probably. But just like Dice K his posting fee is whats going to make him not worth it and CJ Wilson is going to out pitch him.

Whats funny is if CJ gets signed here everyone's story's gonna change.

B2B
09-11-2011, 08:44 AM
Darvish is also going to have a much larger contract compared to Dice K due to inflation of contracts, and a weaker pitching FA market. I'm also not shooting down Darvish so you really need to get it. CJ Wilson will be a better signing then Darvish will be. I've said it over and over again. I'm so confident I'd be willing to throw a hundred bucks in a paypal account lock it until the end of the season and winner takes all, I'm gonna bet your not that confident. Do I think Darvish is going to pitch decent? Yea, probably. But just like Dice K his posting fee is whats going to make him not worth it and CJ Wilson is going to out pitch him.

Whats funny is if CJ gets signed here everyone's story's gonna change.

Sox bid 30mil higher than the next best offer to ensure the Yank's did't land Dice-K, that means the next best offer was 20mil & other team offers could have been in the teens. It's the Sox that raised the price/risk on Japanese pitchers & have none else than themselves to blame for trying to spite/block the Yanks for Dice-K.

If Dice-K's posting fee was 15-20mil, would he have been worth it?.

B2B
09-11-2011, 09:29 AM
1. Lawrie 2B

^ Agree, letting Johnson's 7mil go for the 2 picks being the best 2nd baseman on the market is the way to go IMO. Moving Lawrie to 2nd helps save the team some cash while he & Buatista upgrade the infield both on the field & at bat.

2 options for 2nd base,

1, Signing Reyes to bat switch leadoff if Lawrie is to remain at 3rd
2, Lawrie cheaper replacement to allot better spending elseware (Pitching)

Infield 3B Bautista / SS Escobar / 2B Lawrie / 1B free agent/trade

When Gose is ready the outfield defence would be better by moving Rasmus to a corner spot.

LF Snider-Thames / CF Rasmus-Gose / Thames-Rasmus

If Reyes is the infield target

1. Reyes SS/2B -S
2. Escobar SS/2B -R
3. Votto 1B -L
4. Bautista RF -R
5. Rasmus CF -L
6. Lawrie 3B -R
7. Lind DH -L
8. D,Arnaurd C (Defence game calling over low batting average & HR's)
9. Snider/Thames LF -L

Bench

10. Encarcion 3B/1B/OF/DH/pinch hitter
11. Rajai Davis 4OF and pinch runner
12. JPA backup catcher/pinch hitter
13. Johny Mac utility infielder

Starting Rotation

1. Darvish
2. Romero
3. Alverez
4. Cecil
5. McGowen/Drabek

Trade (Morrow + prospects for Votto)

Bullpen

Careno
Listch
Jansen
Perez
Villeneuva
Camp
McGowen/Drabek

Closer Fransisco

Reyes 20mil
Darvish 15mil
Votto 17mil

- Johnsons 7mil

= roughly 45mil added via Trades/free agency
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Lawrie is moved to 2nd

1. Escobar SS -R
2. Rasmus CF -L
3. Bautista 3B -R
4. Votto 1B -L (Morrow + prospects)
5. Lawrie 3B -R
6. Thames RF -L
7. Encarcion DH -R
8. Snider LF -L
9. D,Arnaurd C -R (Defence game calling over low batting average & HR's)

Bench

10. Lind 1B/LF/DH/pinch hitter
11. Rajai Davis 4OF and pinch runner
12. JPA backup catcher/pinch hitter
13. Johny Mac utility infielder

Starting Rotation

1. CJ Wilson 100mil - 18-20mil per
2. Darvish 100mil - 50-60mil posting fee 10-15mil per
3. Romero
4. Alverez
5. McGowen/Drabek/Cecil

Bullpen

Careno
Listch
Jansen
Perez
Villeneuva
Camp
McGowen/Drabek

Closer Fransisco

CJ Wilson 20mil
Darvish 15mil
Votto 17mil

- Johnsons 7mil

= roughly 45mil added via trade/signings

Towelie
09-11-2011, 11:48 AM
Sox bid 30mil higher than the next best offer to ensure the Yank's did't land Dice-K, that means the next best offer was 20mil & other team offers could have been in the teens. It's the Sox that raised the price/risk on Japanese pitchers & have none else than themselves to blame for trying to spite/block the Yanks for Dice-K.

If Dice-K's posting fee was 15-20mil, would he have been worth it?.

I agree it was the Sox choice to make that bid but considering nobody knew what the bids were up to Theo wanted to get him, and did what he had to. The same is going to work for Darvish, the GM that wants him is going to have to pony up and make sure they get it.

15-20 million total posting fee, 100% would have been worth it to me for him. Like I said he had all the hype in the world with gyro ball and everything else. To say his contract he signed was terrible is foolish, and if didn't need Tommy John could have been worth his value in War$. 8,666,667 is his avg per year salary. 2009, and 2011 were his only years he didn't have value for us. I personally felt like he knocked 10 years off my life watching him, but he was a master of people getting on base and getting out of it. Overall 10.4 WAR and worth 44 million isn't that bad at all, not the superstar everyone thought he would be but he was a great 3rd pitcher then an excellent 4th-5th after Clay came in.

I personally would like to see him pitch again in Boston, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I don't think Darvish posting fee is going to be a ton, almost have of what I think CJ's contract will be, and I think CJ will be the better pitcher as well.

Also found this.



One American League executive guessed if Darvish posted after this season the fee to negotiate a deal would cost “around $75 million.” Another suggested “it could be even higher.” If the Red Sox paid $51 million for a 26-year-old Matsuzaka, a 22-year-old Darvish could command a 50 percent premium.

B2B
09-11-2011, 12:26 PM
I agree it was the Sox choice to make that bid but considering nobody knew what the bids were up to Theo wanted to get him, and did what he had to. The same is going to work for Darvish, the GM that wants him is going to have to pony up and make sure they get it.

The fact no other team was close to what the Sox bid (30mil difference) not even the Yanks who are free spenders when it comes to free agents speaks volumes of the Sox attempt to ensure the Yanks didn't get Dice-K.

The same may happen with Darvish no doubt but a smart GM would make an offer of value & hope for the best, not extend his funds to spite another team. Once AA finds his dollar/value & posts his bid the rest is in the air. All that matters is where AA values Darvish win/lose on the bidding. What is not considered is every teams individual interest/value in Darvish is different.

How badly does each team need a potential ace, some rotations are stronger than others

How much financial risk can teams afford, not all teams are operating well below their potential budget as are the Jays. Jays 60mil payroll, Yanks/Sox have 150+ payroll

Something to also consider are the 2 teams bitten by the Japanese pitching market. (Sox) with Dice -K & (Yanks) I think with Nomo are going to be in the midst of the bids/interest for Darvish. They may repeat the Dice -k incedent & post rediculous bids but you have to ask why 2 teams that had bad experiences would venture their again?. (Prevention/Spite)


15-20 million total posting fee, 100% would have been worth it to me for him.

Once again the only team that bid more than what you think would have made him a worthwhile investment was the Sox, even the Yanks didn't exceed his worth IYO. Sox took a hit for spiting the Yanks.


Like I said he had all the hype in the world with gyro ball and everything else. To say his contract he signed was terrible is foolish, and if didn't need Tommy John could have been worth his value in War$. 8,666,667 is his avg per year salary. 2009, and 2011 were his only years he didn't have value for us. I personally felt like he knocked 10 years off my life watching him, but he was a master of people getting on base and getting out of it. Overall 10.4 WAR and worth 44 million isn't that bad at all, not the superstar everyone thought he would be but he was a great 3rd pitcher then an excellent 4th-5th after Clay came in.

This is my view on Darvish, I can see him being no worse than a #3 starter on this roster while being more durable than Dice -K. @ 10-12mil he's not beyond reason as a #3 if this is potentially worse case scenario for him outside of complete failure/Injury. Main thing is to recover some if not all his posting fee in the Japanese market.


I personally would like to see him pitch again in Boston, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I'm not a huge baseball fan but of the games I've seen him pitch he dominated the Jays in them despite his control. Jays can't afford Darvish doing that for the next 6ys in a Yanks/Sox uniform JMO.


I don't think Darvish posting fee is going to be a ton, almost have of what I think CJ's contract will be, and I think CJ will be the better pitcher as well.

Hopefully the Sox experience with Dice-K will temper not increase cost considering inflation.

wagnall
09-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Lawrie is not going to play 2nd base, forget it, never going to happen, move on to another guy.

ILDD
09-11-2011, 12:53 PM
Lawrie is not going to play 2nd base, forget it, never going to happen, move on to another guy.

Please people. Listen and remeber this.

LAWRIE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY SECOND BASE.

Listen and repeat it to yourself before you post again.

I repeat, LAWRIE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY SECOND BASE.

Thank you for your attention.

Towelie
09-11-2011, 01:19 PM
The fact no other team was close to what the Sox bid (30mil difference) not even the Yanks who are free spenders when it comes to free agents speaks volumes of the Sox attempt to ensure the Yanks didn't get Dice-K.

The same may happen with Darvish no doubt but a smart GM would make an offer of value & hope for the best, not extend his funds to spite another team. Once AA finds his dollar/value & posts his bid the rest is in the air. All that matters is where AA values Darvish win/lose on the bidding. What is not considered is every teams individual interest/value in Darvish is different.


I think if AA wants Darvish he will get him, but that posting fee vs CJ contract is why I say CJ is going to be the better value and will be the better pitcher performer. CJ right now would be the best pitcher the Jays have. I agree with Darvish being a #3 maybe even a solid number 2.



How badly does each team need a potential ace, some rotations are stronger than others

How much financial risk can teams afford, not all teams are operating well below their potential budget as are the Jays. Jays 60mil payroll, Yanks/Sox have 150+ payroll

The Jays can invest money into the team, they've already said the money is available to do so. The key is fixing the biggest holes and right now thats pitching for the Jays. Both Relief and Starting. 100-120+ Million is where I think the Jays can and would go if they could.



Something to also consider are the 2 teams bitten by the Japanese pitching market. (Sox) with Dice -K & (Yanks) I think with Nomo are going to be in the midst of the bids/interest for Darvish. They may repeat the Dice -k incedent & post rediculous bids but you have to ask why 2 teams that had bad experiences would venture their again?. (Prevention/Spite)


Cause of the hype, again Darvish has the hype of a younger and better version of Dice K so I think the posting is going to be very similar if not more for his service. Plus look at the Yankee's current rotation, thats motivation all on its own could drive up that price.



Once again the only team that bid more than what you think would have made him a worthwhile investment was the Sox, even the Yanks didn't exceed his worth IYO. Sox took a hit for spiting the Yanks.


It's not a spit thing IMO tho. It was a lets make sure the Yankee's don't outbid us here. Because nobody knew the price of him. If Darvish comes for 15-20 million, then signs a 40 million dollar contract for 5 years (low balling here) then a 55-60 million Darvis vs CJ's 100 million (If he gets that, high ball him) then 40 million difference for a No1 starter is worth it to me. There's going to be a unknown with Darvish and the question will be is he worth the 40 million gamble.



This is my view on Darvish, I can see him being no worse than a #3 starter on this roster while being more durable than Dice -K. @ 10-12mil he's not beyond reason as a #3 if this is potentially worse case scenario for him outside of complete failure/Injury. Main thing is to recover some if not all his posting fee in the Japanese market.


Completely 100% agree with you here.



I'm not a huge baseball fan but of the games I've seen him pitch he dominated the Jays in them despite his control. Jays can't afford Darvish doing that for the next 6ys in a Yanks/Sox uniform JMO.

Hopefully the Sox experience with Dice-K will temper not increase cost considering inflation.

Yea, he's always a scary guy to watch but I was a fan of him. I still think his TJ surgery was cause of the difference between Japan and here with training and not pitching every 6 days. We got Tazawa as well and he had TJ last season, so it's kind of a trend it seems.

es0terik
09-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Darvish is also going to have a much larger contract compared to Dice K due to inflation of contracts, and a weaker pitching FA market.
No, he very much will not. You seem to forget that the Jays don't have Epstein or Cashman as a GM. Their GM isn't some idiotic free spender who lives with the mentality that you can just throw a lot of money at every problem and fix it. Anthopoulos isn't stupid enough to fill in a 50M bid, if he wins the bid it'll be with a posting fee of like 25-30M. You just automatically assume that Darvish WILL get 100M. How are you so sure of that? Inflation? The economy is worse now than it was before. And you also forget that there was just ONE team in the majors that offered 50M for Dice-K, and if nobody then was willing to spend more than 20M for him, what makes you think that now they'll be willing to spend more than double that for Darvish? Just because the Red Sox did, so everybody will? If anything, the Dice-K signing will actually push many teams away from Darvish.


I'm also not shooting down Darvish so you really need to get it. CJ Wilson will be a better signing then Darvish will be. I've said it over and over again. I'm so confident I'd be willing to throw a hundred bucks in a paypal account lock it until the end of the season and winner takes all, I'm gonna bet your not that confident.
Actually I'd put in a thousand dollars, except I don't have a thousand dollars, nor do I have a hundred dollars.


Do I think Darvish is going to pitch decent? Yea, probably. But just like Dice K his posting fee is whats going to make him not worth it and CJ Wilson is going to out pitch him.
Again, if you have some sort of secret connections to every single GM in the major leagues, and you know exactly what the posting fee for Darvish will be, then please PLEASE enlighten us. It would answer a lot of our questions.


Whats funny is if CJ gets signed here everyone's story's gonna change.
Not in the least. Just because Wilson signs here, I'm going to change my mind? No, I'll live with the fear that Wilson will still be a one-two hit wonder, and my 'story' isn't going to change until the day comes that Darvish crashes and busts like Dice-K, and if Darvish turns out to be an ace and Wilson busts, I'll never let that go and you can be sure there will be a helluva lot of face-rubbing.

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Yeah they are but I think it would cost a bit more to get those players is all.

More cash or players . Both trades gives major league ready talent I think
as for cash who knows how much it will take Darvish may have family in T.O. and Reyes could have friends on the team or it just may be that I'm a cheep **** with shrewd negotiation skills :D;):cool:

GNick
09-11-2011, 04:05 PM
I did a roster up came out around 80 million. Even included Fielder who I don't want here.

Romero 5
Morrow 2.5
Cecil 0.8
Alvarez 0.5
Drabek 0.5

Janssen 1.5
Sherill 1.5
Litsch 1
Villanueva 1.5
Carrano 0.5
Storen 0.5
Nathan 4

Escobar SS 5
Snider LF 0.5
Bautista RF 14
Fielder 1b 22.5
Lawrie 3b 0.5
Encarncion DH 3.5
Rasmus CF 1
Arencibia C 0.4
Infante 2b 2.5

Loewen 0.4
Molina C 1.3
MacDonald inf 1.25
Cooper 0.5
Davis 4th OF 3
Teahen 5.5 * Buyout

Total Salary 81.65

Do a recap how I got this team.

- Signed Prince Fielder as free agent, paying out an 8 year contract at 22.5 million per year. I can trade him when Votto comes on the market. Before Fielder gets much past his 30th birthday.

- Traded Thames and Perez for Storen. Loewen takes Thames place on roster and Storen is closer or setup.

- Signed Joe Nathan 1 year 4 million with team option based on performance.

- Signed Infante to play second base.

- Signed Sherill as lefty specialist out of pen.

I lost a first round pick on Fielder but gain one on Johnson and 3 sandwich picks. One on Johnson, Francisco, Rauch.

wagnall
09-11-2011, 05:07 PM
Infante is interesting but I might look at his team mate, unhappy one at that, 26 yr old Bonifacio. Great speed and they have way too many 2nd and 3rd base guys. JMHO

Like Sherill and Nathan on the 1 year plus CO, Fielder/Votto which ever, and Storen would be a huge piece to add. I would finish all that with Venters from Atl. They are loaded and he has 31 holds this year.

Kenny Powders
09-11-2011, 05:41 PM
How is CJ on the wrong side of 30? He's 31! :laugh: and has the innings of a 27 year old! He's been worth over 20 million per year war value. Then you talk about signing Fielder who's got the body of a 40 year old and you wanna talk about the wrong side of age he's 27 and has had many issues with Diet and team trainers. Then you don't want to go 5 years well Fielder is going to 7-8 years and even more money, not to mention hitting isn't the issue with the Jays again it's pitching, thats the problem.



Isn't he a Vegan?

13Lawrie13
09-11-2011, 05:51 PM
Isn't he a Vegan?

Yup.

wagnall
09-11-2011, 07:19 PM
Isn't he a Vegan?

Doesn't look like its helping. Is Fielder a solid 250lbs or a fatty. Some running backs in the NFL are his size and they survive. Just wondering.:)

Towelie
09-11-2011, 08:37 PM
Isn't he a Vegan?

Yea, and thats the problem. He's choosing to eat what he wants and refuses to make any changes. Being a Vegan isn't technically any healthier.

ghost dog
09-13-2011, 02:20 AM
Jonathan Broxton

holdemboss11
09-13-2011, 10:44 AM
I get Lawrie is not going to play 2nd base and I get that 98% of the crap that you guys put on your rosters as additions are not going to happen...I am simply saying they are no good 2nd baseman out there but IF the Jays moved Lawrie to 2nd which he is good enough and athetic enough to play... then 3rd could go to Edwin or Jose if either Encarcion can learn to catch and throw consistantly or Bautista by default ...You can find top notch outfielders available both through trade and free agency....The post was IF I WAS THE GM....And if was the GM I would move him for now....Is Lawrie going to to play 2nd no....But relax poeple I kow that ...And by the way Prince aint coming here either....

Krylian
09-13-2011, 10:48 AM
If Lawrie was good enough to play 2B the Jays wouldn't have had to move him to 3B.

wolverine
09-13-2011, 02:16 PM
[1] R+SS - Yunel Escobar - $5,000,000
[2] L+CF - Colby Rasmus - $400,000
[3] R+RF - Jose Bautista - $14,000,000
[4] L+1B - Prince Fielder - $22,000,000
[5] S+DH - Carlos Pena - 8,000,000
[6] R+3B - Brett Lawrie - $400,000
[7] L+2B - Kelly Johnson - $7,000,000
[8] R+CA - JP Arencibia - $400,000
[9] L+LF - Eric Thames - $400,000

Subtotal: $57,600,000
Total So Far: $57,600,000

[10] 1 - Ricky Romero - $5,000,000
[11] 2 - Brandon Morrow - $3,500,000*
[12] 3 - Rich Harden - 2,750,000
[13] 4 - Henderson Alvarez - $400,000
[14] 5 - Brandon Webb - 2,000,000

Subtotal: $13,650,000
Total So Far: $71,250,000

[15] (Reliever) Jesse Litsch - $1,500,000*
[16] (Reliever) Carlos Villanueva - $2,000,000*
[17] (Reliever) Luis Perez - $400,000
[18] (Reliever) Joel Carreno - $400,000
[19] (Specialist) George Sherrill - $2,500,000
[20] (Set-Up) Kerry Wood - 4,000,000
[21] (Closer) Ryan Madson - 5,000,000

Subtotal: $15,800,000
Total So Far: $87,050,000

[22] (catcher) Iván Rodríguez - $ 1,500,000
[23] (Utility 1) Omar Infante - $3,000,000
[24] (utility 2) Nate McLouth - $1,750,000
[25] Open Spot (Drabek, Carlson, Snider, etc)

Subtotal: 6.25
Total so far: 93,300,000

with the money saved with stop gap pitchers like harden and webb leaves us with that much more free salary to spend on possible free agents like Zack Greinke, Cole hamels, Anibal Sanchez or anyone else AA see fit for this team,

wagnall
09-13-2011, 02:49 PM
I get Lawrie is not going to play 2nd base and I get that 98% of the crap that you guys put on your rosters as additions are not going to happen...I am simply saying they are no good 2nd baseman out there but IF the Jays moved Lawrie to 2nd which he is good enough and athetic enough to play... then 3rd could go to Edwin or Jose if either Encarcion can learn to catch and throw consistantly or Bautista by default ...You can find top notch outfielders available both through trade and free agency....The post was IF I WAS THE GM....And if was the GM I would move him for now....Is Lawrie going to to play 2nd no....But relax poeple I kow that ...And by the way Prince aint coming here either....

Don't get your panties in a knot.:) Ideally if Lawrie was a 2nd baseman we could go out and poss. get a Wright or someone very expensive to play 3rd. But how many chances do you get to get a , so far, power hitting 3rd baseman whose only 21. I'm not convinced Johnson is the answer as since he got here his ave. keeps heading south. Thats why to me 2nd, 1st. and pitching are our greatest needs. We're solid in the OF and at 3rd. and SS and C.
You can't put Baut back to 3rd. enough of moving him around and EE is hardly the guy I would want being my slugging 3rd baseman. Iff EE hasn't learned to throw the ball to 1st by now he never will.:):) JMHO

wagnall
09-13-2011, 03:43 PM
My Fantasy batting line up for next year would be.

Escobar SS R
Rasmus CF L
Bautista RF R
Votto 1st L
Lawrie 3rd R
Papi DH L FA
Infante 2nd R FA
Thames/Snider LF L
Jpa C R

craigerlee
09-13-2011, 06:27 PM
I'll give it a try

Lineup:
1. Yunel Escobar SS R 5M
2. Colby Rasmus CF L 4M
3. Jose Bautista RF R 14M
4. Prince Fielder 1B L 23M (7/161M)
5. Brett Lawrie 3B R .45M
6. Kelly Johnson 2B L 7M
7. Edwin Encarnacion DH R 3.5M
8. JP Arencibia C R .45M
9. Adam Loewan LF L .45M

Total Cost of Lineup 2011 - 57.85M

Starting Pitching:
1. Rickey Romero LH 5.25M
2. Tommy Hanson RH .45M Trade Gose+Snider+Hech+Drabek
3. Brett Cecil LH 2M
4. Brandon Morrow RH 2.8M
5. Henderson Alvarez RH .45M

Total Cost of Rotation - 10.95M

Bullpen:
LM: Mcgowan RH .45M
MR: Villaneuva RH 2M
MR: Litsch RH 1.2M
MR: Carreno RH .45M
LOOGY: Perez LH .45M
SU: Casey Janssen RH 1.5M
CL: Joe Nathan RH 7.5M sign 2/15M

Total Cost of Bullpen - 13.55M

Bench:
Thames LF/RF LH .45M
Davis CF RH 2.75M
Matt Treanor C 1M sign 1/1M
Cezar Izturis SS/2B/3B 1/.8M

Total Cost of Bench - 5M

Buyouts:
Teahan 5.5M
Rauch .25M

Total Cost of Buyouts - 5.75M

Total Cost of Team - 93.1M

-I'm assuming we trade Lind for some type of Minor League player
-Hanson might be a pipe dream, but the Braves have to move a pitcher and they're probably getting the best return for Hanson. If I was AA I'd target him.
-I'm starting Loewan over Thames cause I think his better D will more than compensate for whatever benefit Thames gives us with the bat.

holdemboss11
09-13-2011, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=wagnall;19175356]Don't get your panties in a knot.:) Ideally if Lawrie was a 2nd baseman we could go out and poss. get a Wright or someone very expensive to play 3rd. But how many chances do you get to get a , so far, power hitting 3rd baseman whose only 21. I'm not convinced Johnson is the answer as since he got here his ave. keeps heading south. Thats why to me 2nd, 1st. and pitching are our greatest needs. We're solid in the OF and at 3rd. and SS and C.
You can't put Baut back to 3rd. enough of moving him around and EE is hardly the guy I would want being my slugging 3rd baseman. Iff EE hasn't learned to throw the ball to 1st by now he never will.:):) JMHO[/QUOT

I don't wear panties your mom prefers me comando....I agree EE is not a full time infielder and I know Jose does not want to play 3rd but its still the best way to improve the team is to go get a big bat and with Prince and Albert likely to not chose Toronto...An Oufielder like Willingham is the best realistic option in my opinion.

13Lawrie13
09-13-2011, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=wagnall;19175356]Don't get your panties in a knot.:) Ideally if Lawrie was a 2nd baseman we could go out and poss. get a Wright or someone very expensive to play 3rd. But how many chances do you get to get a , so far, power hitting 3rd baseman whose only 21. I'm not convinced Johnson is the answer as since he got here his ave. keeps heading south. Thats why to me 2nd, 1st. and pitching are our greatest needs. We're solid in the OF and at 3rd. and SS and C.
You can't put Baut back to 3rd. enough of moving him around and EE is hardly the guy I would want being my slugging 3rd baseman. Iff EE hasn't learned to throw the ball to 1st by now he never will.:):) JMHO[/QUOT

I don't wear panties your mom prefers me comando....I agree EE is not a full time infielder and I know Jose does not want to play 3rd but its still the best way to improve the team is to go get a big bat and with Prince and Albert likely to not chose Toronto...An Oufielder like Willingham is the best realistic option in my opinion.

Just stop.

Lawrie isn't going back to second. Simple as that.

es0terik
09-13-2011, 10:57 PM
Just stop.

Lawrie isn't going back to second. Simple as that.
The funny thing is, he pretends that he knows that by saying 'I know Lawrie won't go back to second' but then continues to defend to move.

ghost dog
09-14-2011, 01:19 AM
Lineup:
1. Jose Reyes 2B L 10.2M
2. Yunel Escobar SS R 5M
3. Jose Bautista RF R 14M
4. Joey Votto 1B L $7,410,655M ( trade: Snider Cecil cooper)
5. Brett Lawrie 3B R .45M
6. Colby Rasmus CF L 4M
7. Eric Thames DH R .45M
8. JP Arencibia C R .45M
9. Adam Loewan LF L .45M

Total Cost of Lineup 2011 - 42.410655M

Starting Pitching:
1. Rickey Romero LH 5.25M
2. Yu Darvish RH 9.79M
3. Mcgowan RH .45M
4. Brandon Morrow RH 2.8M
5. Henderson Alvarez RH .45M

Total Cost of Rotation - 18.74M

Bullpen:
LM: Villaneuva RH 2M
MR: Casey Janssen RH 1.5M
MR: Litsch RH 1.2M
MR: Carreno RH .45M
LR: Perez LH .45M
SU: Dan Bard RH $505,000 (Trade Lind)
CL: Jonathan Broxton RH 7.5M sign 2/15M

Total Cost of Bullpen - 13.605M

Bench:

Davis CF RH 2.75M
Travis d'Arnaud RH C .45M
Jmac SS/2B/3B 1M

Total Cost of Bench - 4.2M

Buyouts:
Teahan 5.5M
Rauch .25M

Total Cost of Buyouts - 5.75M

Total Cost of Team - 84.750655M :D