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View Full Version : Brandon Morrow- trade bait or #4/5 SP?



passengershawn
09-07-2011, 10:14 PM
I'm getting pretty tired of watching the inconsistency of Morrow...especially with all the talent he has. His last outing (tonight) he could barely reach 93 mph. With the high pitch counts he rarely gets into the 7th inning, and it usually takes him 100+ pitches to get through 5 innings.

So in saying all that...is this guy realistically capable of being a top 3 SP...or is he a servicable #4/5 guy (likely where Cecil should be too)? Would AA package Morrow (or Cecil) for a quality #2/3 SP, CL or 2B?

koreancabbage
09-07-2011, 10:24 PM
its really his first complete year - injury of course earlier

when he's on, he's on. Give him time, still under 27 right? With his numbers, he's a 4th rotation pitcher but with major upside for a no-hitter any night.

North Yorker
09-07-2011, 10:32 PM
Eh Im not ready to give up on him. If we get a top 2 SP this offseason then he would have less pressure on him in the 3 spot.

He's cheap and talented. Yes he's inconsistent but I dont know enough about his trade value to say we should move him.

leafsrule99
09-07-2011, 10:35 PM
i agree...its his 2nd year in the majors. Next year is the key

DwayneMVPwade
09-07-2011, 10:37 PM
+1 to above 3 posts

shortfuze
09-08-2011, 07:34 AM
It is painful to watch him sometimes but he hasn't been in the league long and has lots of time to grow. He will be fine n

nithanyo
09-08-2011, 07:44 AM
In an ideal situation u want him as a #4 only cus he's inconsistent. He has the stuff to be a #2 or even an ace.

2012 rotation

1. Unknown
2. Romero
3. Unknown
4. Morrow
5. Unknown probably Alvarez

Our pitching needs alot of work. I kno I'm stating the obvious lol

StayOnBoard
09-08-2011, 08:10 AM
I really need to consider switching teams - the ignorance of Jays fans has to be higher than any other team in baseball.

GrumpyOldMan
09-08-2011, 08:26 AM
Seattle turning him from starter to closer to starter over a couple of seasons didn't do him any favors. I'm not giving up on him as a starter. He has way too much talent.

Nuke
09-08-2011, 08:34 AM
Not ready to give up on him, but I agree we need to sign a ligit 1-2 starter and push Morrow back to 4 or 5. Currently I would rather have Alverez as our #3.

madmike77
09-08-2011, 09:11 AM
There's no point in trading him. You keep him and hope for the best.

The problem with the Jays next year anyway is they have a number 1 and then a group of guys who in an ideal rotation would be 4-5s - Morrow, Cecil, hopefully McGowan and Alvarez. And there's also Drabek - too early to give up on him.

Morrow, Alvarez, Drabek and McGowan all have the potential to be better than 4-5s, but you can't really count on them all taking a step up next year. I look at next year as another year of development. I know some Jays fans are getting sick of hearing that, but I think it's the best route.

After next year they can see where they're at - with McGwire, Molina and Hutchinson also coming along nicely, at some point the Jays will have to make some decisions on who stays and who goes. They can only keep so many guys around.

It's possible next year and the year after may be the time to look at flipping some of the guys who won't make the rotation to another team for more proven assets - but again that's down the road. Even then, Morrow would be one of the last ones I'd consider trading. His ceiling is just too high.

KaiserSose
09-08-2011, 09:26 AM
I really need to consider switching teams - the ignorance of Jays fans has to be higher than any other team in baseball.

.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/sun-will-come-out-for-morrow/

.

nithanyo
09-08-2011, 10:09 AM
Has anyone noticed Morrow has allowed a lot of home runs as of late? He probably needs a ground out pitch. A cutter, 2 seam or sinker. Cus right now his fastball is either blown past hitters or parked in the seats. He's really one dimensional.

But he has too much talent to give up on as a starter. I say we put him at 4/5 to relieve some pressure off him. This is also the most innings he has ever pitched. So i think he is tired as well.

Twitchy
09-08-2011, 10:20 AM
It's starting to get to be a large enough sample where Morrow might be one of those extreme cases like Nolasco where despite the awesome K:BB he just can't match the ERA to his FIP.

Tough watching him struggle because he's got great stuff, but I don't know if he ever puts it all together. If he posts similar results next year then I think this is the kind of pitcher he is. Hopefully he breaks out, but this has been very disappointing.

madmike77
09-08-2011, 10:23 AM
Has anyone noticed Morrow has allowed a lot of home runs as of late? He probably needs a ground out pitch. A cutter, 2 seam or sinker. Cus right now his fastball is either blown past hitters or parked in the seats. He's really one dimensional.

But he has too much talent to give up on as a starter. I say we put him at 4/5 to relieve some pressure off him. This is also the most innings he has ever pitched. So i think he is tired as well.

The thing is I don't think there is any real pressure on him. The team isn't going anywhere and people aren't calling for his head. They also aren't demanding he step up and be a number 2.

The Jays don't really have a number 2 and arguably don't have a number 3 either. They're just going to have to keep rolling Morrow out there and hope he straightens out.

I noticed last night his velocity was all over the place. Some of his fastballs even in the 3rd inning were coming in at 89, but then he'd get it back up to 94. I couldn't tell if it was by design or if he's maybe getting tired.

damadmonk
09-08-2011, 10:46 AM
.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/sun-will-come-out-for-morrow/

.

Wow...


The Jays should have the best defensive position players start when he does.

pebloemer
09-08-2011, 11:12 AM
I'm getting pretty tired of watching the inconsistency of Morrow...especially with all the talent he has. His last outing (tonight) he could barely reach 93 mph. With the high pitch counts he rarely gets into the 7th inning, and it usually takes him 100+ pitches to get through 5 innings.

So in saying all that...is this guy realistically capable of being a top 3 SP...or is he a servicable #4/5 guy (likely where Cecil should be too)? Would AA package Morrow (or Cecil) for a quality #2/3 SP, CL or 2B?

Why trade him when return value is likely low? The season is coming to a close. I'm not sure how often in his career he has pitched as many innings as he has this season, but his arm may be getting tired after a long season. Why not remain patient? He has awesome stuff, but he's still on his learning curve. If you trade someone when you are "tired of them" you end up giving away players like Escobar and Rasmus for unfair value.

Bob_at_york
09-08-2011, 11:19 AM
stuff can only get you so far. Next spring training, he will be in a dogfight to keep his rotation spot.

scottythegreat1
09-08-2011, 11:22 AM
I know this is going to ruffle feathers....

but I wonder why JP Arencibia has been catching him??? He seems to do better when Jose Molina is catching. I know that Jose Molina may potentially be leaving the team, but you cant do this sort of thing right now, even if the season is practically over, wait until Spring traning.

R. Johnson#3
09-08-2011, 11:48 AM
AJ Burnett V 2.0

passengershawn
09-08-2011, 12:12 PM
So I'm wondering then, after reading these posts, if Morrow is not better suited for the closers role as opposed to a SP? His inconistency may only be due to increased innings over the past couple years...but if this is 2 years in a row where a guy had somewhat of a dead arm after 130/140 innings (and he's still only inhis mid-20's)...then maybe his arm will never be able to handle the demands of being a SP.

With that being said...is his realistic projected output (based on last couple years) of 150-ish innings...10-11 wins...4.80+ ERA...10+K/9 innings...decent BB/9 innings...and less than 10 HR per season (although this year he's given up 18!) stats acceptable for a #4/5 SP?

My guess...looking at other MLB teams would be yes. Question is though, based on his talent and giving up what has turned out to be a very good closer in Brandon League, is Morrow giving the Jays a good enough return on investment as a SP?

I think we could make similar arguments for Dustin McGowan as a potential closer as well, given that his arm may never be able to handle SP innings again.

2009mvp
09-08-2011, 12:29 PM
How does a guy who averaged 93 last night (topping out at 96.5) have a dead arm? Please.

Towelie
09-08-2011, 12:33 PM
In an ideal situation u want him as a #4 only cus he's inconsistent. He has the stuff to be a #2 or even an ace.

2012 rotation

1. Unknown
2. Romero
3. Unknown
4. Morrow
5. Unknown probably Alvarez

Our pitching needs alot of work. I kno I'm stating the obvious lol

Exactly, the expectations are just to high for Morrow as of right now as a 2nd guy. He's a decent 3rd guy and great 4th guy.

rapsjaysfan88
09-08-2011, 01:22 PM
I want to see what he does next year. This year he's terrible at home, good on the road. It was the opposite last year. Maybe next year it will all come 2gether 4 him. He really needs to improve his changeup. To me that's his key to success. Everything he throws is just hard 90ish fastball, 89 mph slider, 90 mph curve. He needs a velocity change so people can't just wait on fastball.

VRP723
09-08-2011, 01:44 PM
I'll take him!

Tmath
09-08-2011, 02:25 PM
I'll take him!

For Kemp sure, done deal.

Bearclaw
09-08-2011, 02:42 PM
I want to see what he does next year. This year he's terrible at home, good on the road. It was the opposite last year. Maybe next year it will all come 2gether 4 him. He really needs to improve his changeup. To me that's his key to success. Everything he throws is just hard 90ish fastball, 89 mph slider, 90 mph curve. He needs a velocity change so people can't just wait on fastball.

He does not throw a 90 MPH curve. His curve is low 80's.

Kelly Gruber
09-08-2011, 02:43 PM
Yeah let's trade Morrow for some prospects... C'mon people. The only smart thing to do with him is ride it out. He's going to be good eventually, may as well be in Toronto.

Halladay
09-08-2011, 05:29 PM
How does a guy who averaged 93 last night (topping out at 96.5) have a dead arm? Please.

I'm wondering how a guy with 12 posts has 3 threads, or should I say 3 rants.

PJ Awesome
09-08-2011, 06:11 PM
I used to think Morrow was a solid number 2 starter for us, but trade bait or a number 4-5 starter IS what he's turning nto, 6 straight awful starts. But, he has GREAT stuff so I haven't lost all hope, he's just having a rough stretch IMO. When he's on - He's ON.

rapsjaysfan88
09-08-2011, 06:54 PM
^trade bait? I love how people think we can package all our ****** players for anything of value. Let's trade mccoy and camp 4 votto (sarcasm) . Come on people, seriously.

StayOnBoard
09-08-2011, 06:58 PM
^trade bait? I love how people think we can package all our ****** players for anything of value. Let's trade mccoy and camp 4 votto (sarcasm) . Come on people, seriously.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make, but Brandon Morrow would have value if he were on the trade market. Unlike the scrubs you mentioned above...

passengershawn
09-08-2011, 07:32 PM
Hey guys...I'mnot trying to be a troll or dump on the Jays sunshine, because there are some bright spots ahead. I'm just saying that I think many Jays fans have over-estimated the ceiling for some players over the past couple years (Lind, Morrow, Cecil, Hill, Rasmus). There are very serviceable, solid players...but they are not buidling blocks and 'core' pieces.

I think Morrow is what he is...a #4/5 type guy that can no-hit a team one night...then the next 3 starts average 5 innings, 8 hits, 4-5 earned runs, 2 walks and 8 K's. Ever since the game last Aug vs. Tampa, fans have been anointing this guy as a stud SP, and I think it's inflated the perspective and expectations for him.

As for Rasmus, Cecil, Lind and Hill (gone now, but many still held unto the dream he would return to 2009 form)...all solid players, but I think we're hoping for them to be beyond what they're likely capable of...I hope I'm wrong though!

Halladay
09-08-2011, 07:45 PM
Hey guys...I'mnot trying to be a troll or dump on the Jays sunshine, because there are some bright spots ahead. I'm just saying that I think many Jays fans have over-estimated the ceiling for some players over the past couple years (Lind, Morrow, Cecil, Hill, Rasmus). There are very serviceable, solid players...but they are not buidling blocks and 'core' pieces.

I think Morrow is what he is...a #4/5 type guy that can no-hit a team one night...then the next 3 starts average 5 innings, 8 hits, 4-5 earned runs, 2 walks and 8 K's. Ever since the game last Aug vs. Tampa, fans have been anointing this guy as a stud SP, and I think it's inflated the perspective and expectations for him.

As for Rasmus, Cecil, Lind and Hill (gone now, but many still held unto the dream he would return to 2009 form)...all solid players, but I think we're hoping for them to be beyond what they're likely capable of...I hope I'm wrong though!

What are you talking about? Lind and Hill have both had very good seasons so you can throw the whole ceiling argument out the window. Rasmus was a top prospect who has yet to play a full season here and Cecil has started a whopping 62 times with less then 400IP at the MLB level.

StayOnBoard
09-08-2011, 08:02 PM
What are you talking about? Lind and Hill have both had very good seasons so you can throw the whole ceiling argument out the window. Rasmus was a top prospect who has yet to play a full season here and Cecil has started a whopping 62 times with less then 400IP at the MLB level.

Its funny you say that, Brandon Morrow has a whooping 67 starts in his career as well.

Halladay
09-08-2011, 08:08 PM
Its funny you say that, Brandon Morrow has a whooping 67 starts in his career as well.

Yup and Morrow was also back and fourth between starting and in the pen when he was in Seattle.

statquo
09-09-2011, 05:29 AM
^^ As you said in the last Morrow thread, we're not contending, so there's nothing to lose in just throwing him out there, letting him figure it out. I mean he was lights out at the dome last year and horrawful on the road, now this year it's the opposite. I'm going to assume next year he'll be good or bad on both.

He's got disgusting stuff. Maybe it's just pitch selection. Hitters just seem to sit fastball.

Shifty1 69
09-09-2011, 09:07 AM
I'll take him!

LOL, exactly....:facepalm:
The dodgers and every other team in major league baseball would take him in a heartbeat... although he may only be a 4th/5th guy on the Phillies.:rolleyes:
Ridiculous notion to trade a 26yo arm like Morrows.

Hey, maybe the Jays could trade Morrow for a proven closer?? Maybe even Brandon League??:facepalm::D

Come on people, relax... his ceiling is still as a bonafide #1 and should not be dumped cause he had a bad month.


Go back and look at Lincecums august last season (I believe that was the month he was horrid). Verlander lost 17 games in his 3rd full season.

Outside of ERA, I think his peripherals are rather good if I am not mistaken... you dont give him up just to open another hole in the rotation.

StayOnBoard
09-09-2011, 12:32 PM
LOL, exactly....:facepalm:
The dodgers and every other team in major league baseball would take him in a heartbeat... although he may only be a 4th/5th guy on the Phillies.:rolleyes:
Ridiculous notion to trade a 26yo arm like Morrows.

Hey, maybe the Jays could trade Morrow for a proven closer?? Maybe even Brandon League??:facepalm::D

Come on people, relax... his ceiling is still as a bonafide #1 and should not be dumped cause he had a bad month.


Go back and look at Lincecums august last season (I believe that was the month he was horrid). Verlander lost 17 games in his 3rd full season.

Outside of ERA, I think his peripherals are rather good if I am not mistaken... you dont give him up just to open another hole in the rotation.

Unfortunately this is Toronto - where if you're not a superstar by game 5 you're pretty much a useless bum who should be traded for a bag of balls.

Threads must be created to follow and bash those players soon after.

Valleyfella
09-09-2011, 01:17 PM
Morrow's problem is one of control - not in the sense that he walks a lot of batters but in the sense that his strikes are down the middle as often as they are on the corners. Also his off speed stuff is only a few mphs slower than his fastball. The batters are seeing everything in the 90-95 range and timing him accordingly.

Whether Morrow ever develops into the stud he is capable of being remains to be seen, but pitchers with his stuff don't grow on trees. I think you have to give him every opportunity to realize his potential.

wagnall
09-09-2011, 03:23 PM
Geez I wonder if we are ever satisfied and patience seems a little low. Morrow could be traded to any team as 29 other teams would take him. But he's 26, has shown some great to not so great stuff, but I would like to see what he does all of next year before I think of sending him away.

Also we need 4 top starters, whether he's 1, 2, 3 or 4 does it matter. Lets be patient. JMHO

Billyen
09-09-2011, 08:23 PM
LOL, exactly....:facepalm:
The dodgers and every other team in major league baseball would take him in a heartbeat... although he may only be a 4th/5th guy on the Phillies.:rolleyes:
Ridiculous notion to trade a 26yo arm like Morrows.

Hey, maybe the Jays could trade Morrow for a proven closer?? Maybe even Brandon League??:facepalm::D

Come on people, relax... his ceiling is still as a bonafide #1 and should not be dumped cause he had a bad month.


Go back and look at Lincecums august last season (I believe that was the month he was horrid). Verlander lost 17 games in his 3rd full season.

Outside of ERA, I think his peripherals are rather good if I am not mistaken... you dont give him up just to open another hole in the rotation.

This is a dangerous post.

THIS was the year these guys needed to step up and improve a bit (remember what we were all saying in ST?). Not saying they had to be stars but improve. If I hear 1 more he's got nasty stuff, Halladay first season he had a ERA over 10 or bla,bla....I'll loose a cookie.

At some point you need to preform and get it done. No use throwing a no-no if the following 5 games you give up 5 runs each game.

The newbie is right...I'm not waiting any longer. Patience is fine and I have been patient for years...19 to be exact but, These guy need to start excelling or trade them for ones that do...if that means adding some prospect arms to the trade...then fine. Stop falling in love with these guys.

The Jays has the 3rd WORST 1-6 inning ERA in the majors. Take away Ricky...Oh my!

BTW...over 60 ML starts...that is more than enough time to start living up to your potential. Live how long do we have to wait for them to figure it out?

AA will do what needs to be done...just another month to go.

3mikee_
09-09-2011, 08:58 PM
Feel like even if he was trade bait, we are going to get a 4/5 pitcher in return regardless.

ghost dog
09-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Trade or 4-5 come on, His arm needs rest thats it thats all

Jays Claw
09-10-2011, 01:03 AM
So I'm wondering then, after reading these posts, if Morrow is not better suited for the closers role as opposed to a SP? His inconistency may only be due to increased innings over the past couple years...but if this is 2 years in a row where a guy had somewhat of a dead arm after 130/140 innings (and he's still only inhis mid-20's)...then maybe his arm will never be able to handle the demands of being a SP.

I agree. How about we completely mirror what Seattle did with Morrow and ruin his career in ways only inconsistent roles can. Who else is in?

/sarcasm

There is no ****ing way we even consider using him as a closer. When we got him, AA made it clear that Morrow was going to be a starter and only a starter. And I think Seattle proved to the whole world that Morrow wasn't fit for any type of bullpen role outside of maybe long-relief. Using him in a long-relief role now would just be stupid considering that his raw power arm and tremendous stuff are much better suited for a SP. Now do you understand why the Jays are committed to keeping Morrow as a starter and not some serviceable pitcher?


With that being said...is his realistic projected output (based on last couple years) of 150-ish innings...10-11 wins...4.80+ ERA...10+K/9 innings...decent BB/9 innings...and less than 10 HR per season (although this year he's given up 18!) stats acceptable for a #4/5 SP?

He's coming off his first full season as a starter in '10 and is now in his second full season. Not to mention the fact that he's had to deal and adjust to injuries, a new city, a new pitching coach, and a new starting role. He's young and still has loads of room to grow. We're not in the pennant race at the moment so there's no need to be impatient with his development. Now I know that the growing pains can be tough, but that's how it is when dealing with a young, rebuilding team.


My guess...looking at other MLB teams would be yes. Question is though, based on his talent and giving up what has turned out to be a very good closer in Brandon League, is Morrow giving the Jays a good enough return on investment as a SP?

I don't care what kind of season Brandon League is having. If you were offered Morrow for League and a B+ prospect, you make that deal every day of the week! Especially when Morrow is young, controllable, and has unbelieveable upside.


I think we could make similar arguments for Dustin McGowan as a potential closer as well, given that his arm may never be able to handle SP innings again.

Morrow didn't go through two seperate shoulder surgeries on his pitching arm and one major knee surgery on one of his legs though. Simply put - Morrow hasn't faced any major setbacks that should and/or will potentially force him to slip into pitching limited innings like a closer does.

mtf
09-10-2011, 03:17 AM
At the beginning of the season we, the fans, were warned by every "expert" covering the Blue Jays that many times young players will take a step back before they move forward. We've seen this in many players that were expected to be parts of the Blue Jays future (Drabek, Snider, Cecil, Morrow).

Colby Rasmus & Yunel Escobar were both able to be brought in, at least in part, because they had off-seasons early in their career. I don't see Alex Anthopoulos hitting the same panic button that the uneducated fans are.

1hardcore
09-10-2011, 03:32 AM
at the beginning of the season we, the fans, were warned by every "expert" covering the blue jays that many times young players often take a step back before they move forward. We've seen this in many players that were expected to be parts of the blue jays future (drabek, snider, cecil, morrow).

Colby rasmus & yunel escobar were both brought in due, at least in part, for their off-seasons early in their career. I don't see alex anthopoulos hitting the same panic button that the uneducated fans are.

this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Billyen
09-10-2011, 08:53 AM
At the beginning of the season we, the fans, were warned by every "expert" covering the Blue Jays that many times young players will take a step back before they move forward. We've seen this in many players that were expected to be parts of the Blue Jays future (Drabek, Snider, Cecil, Morrow).

Colby Rasmus & Yunel Escobar were both able to be brought in, at least in part, because they had off-seasons early in their career. I don't see Alex Anthopoulos hitting the same panic button that the uneducated fans are.

Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

dunedinjays
09-10-2011, 10:20 AM
Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

I believe the GM himself said that was a very strong possibility

nithanyo
09-10-2011, 12:05 PM
Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

Growing pains. Most pitchers go through it. Too soon to panic but at the same time we shouldn't build our future around uncertain arms in morrow, drabek and Cecil. AA should have the mindset that we only have 1 starter for sure in 2012 and that's Ricky. He should get as much quality arms as possible and not rely on these guys. If they pan out that's great, but if not it's ok cus we should have other options

Kenny Powders
09-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

Were you planning the parade for next year?

Its going to take time, and why close the door on a player with so much upside when we have glaring holes in our line up and are not close to competing? If he doesn't turn it around by this time next year, then I would start to question his ability. Still WAY to early.

jaysnraptors44
09-10-2011, 12:56 PM
morrow should be a reliever ..

Kenny Powders
09-10-2011, 01:09 PM
morrow should be a reliever ..

No, he shouldn't

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 01:43 AM
At the beginning of the season we, the fans, were warned by every "expert" covering the Blue Jays that many times young players will take a step back before they move forward. We've seen this in many players that were expected to be parts of the Blue Jays future (Drabek, Snider, Cecil, Morrow).

Colby Rasmus & Yunel Escobar were both able to be brought in, at least in part, because they had off-seasons early in their career. I don't see Alex Anthopoulos hitting the same panic button that the uneducated fans are.

Agreed 2013 is the year when things come together. Building a contender takes time unless it's a 1 yr thing

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 01:44 AM
No, he shouldn't

this

wamco
09-11-2011, 08:01 AM
Agreed 2013 is the year when things come together. Building a contender takes time unless it's a 1 yr thing

It's been coming together 2 years from now for a decade. Problem is Yanks/Bost/TB will prob be good then too.

GNick
09-11-2011, 10:02 AM
I'm getting pretty tired of watching the inconsistency of Morrow...especially with all the talent he has. His last outing (tonight) he could barely reach 93 mph. With the high pitch counts he rarely gets into the 7th inning, and it usually takes him 100+ pitches to get through 5 innings.

So in saying all that...is this guy realistically capable of being a top 3 SP...or is he a servicable #4/5 guy (likely where Cecil should be too)? Would AA package Morrow (or Cecil) for a quality #2/3 SP, CL or 2B?

If the trade was right I would trade Morrow. Not rushing out to trade him but if he could help land a big fish I would move him. Him and Lind should have good trade value. Young, with decent numbers, favorable contracts. If we could package both together with a decent prospect[s] for a star I would do it.

Krylian
09-11-2011, 12:26 PM
Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

I've heard this lots of places. Players, especially pitchers, rarely improve in a straight line. There are ups and downs and anyone who's followed baseball for enough time knows this. No one who knows anything would ever realistically expect that Drabek, Cecil, Morrow, Romero, Litsch, or whoever else you want to put in there would all improve year after year. That's just not the way it works.

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 03:27 PM
It's been coming together 2 years from now for a decade. Problem is Yanks/Bost/TB will prob be good then too.

There is finaly a plan in place for the long term and the parts in the system to make it happen

passengershawn
09-13-2011, 09:51 PM
okay...it's rough when you kick a guy when he's down, but something is amiss with Mr. Morrow, and 6 of his past 7 starts have been brutal. Is it time to shut him down for his remaining 2-3 starts?

What do you think is wrong with him at this point? (fatigue, teams figuring out his pitch sequence, losing focus from long & going nowhere season, ......)?

ghost dog
09-13-2011, 11:37 PM
okay...it's rough when you kick a guy when he's down, but something is amiss with Mr. Morrow, and 6 of his past 7 starts have been brutal. Is it time to shut him down for his remaining 2-3 starts?

What do you think is wrong with him at this point? (fatigue, teams figuring out his pitch sequence, losing focus from long & going nowhere season, ......)?

it's fatigue or mabye it's Juan Guzman curse great stuff but wild as ****

Luca68
09-14-2011, 12:23 AM
shut his *** down

madmike77
09-14-2011, 06:50 AM
He needs to be shut down. Tossing him out there in the shape he's in now is just going to destroy any confidence he might have left.

Big Hurt
09-14-2011, 08:31 AM
I am not even sure where I could research this but I would love to know Brandon's win/loss and ERA splits with Molina as his personal catcher and with JP catching him.
Morrow was solid all year and EVER since the Jays decided JP would catch him he has been horrible.

Coincidence....I think not!!!

R. Johnson#3
09-14-2011, 08:41 AM
I am not even sure where I could research this but I would love to know Brandon's win/loss and ERA splits with Molina as his personal catcher and with JP catching him.
Morrow was solid all year and EVER since the Jays decided JP would catch him he has been horrible.

Coincidence....I think not!!!

I don't know what Morrow you're talking about but it's definitely not Brandon. Even with Jose catching him he was his usual inconsistent self. A pitcher shouldn't have to have a personal catcher. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Morrow = AJ Burnett V2.0

Big Hurt
09-14-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't know what Morrow you're talking about but it's definitely not Brandon. Even with Jose catching him he was his usual inconsistent self. A pitcher shouldn't have to have a personal catcher. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Morrow = AJ Burnett V2.0

If you have been paying attention this year Morrow was far more effective in the 1st half with Molina as his caddy. Glad you do not think pitchers should have personal catchers but Francona and LaRussa disagree with you.
And it makes me laugh when people make a comparison to AJ Burnett assuming it is a negative.
Dude is done like dinner but there was a reason he got a $16.5 million/year 5 year ticket from the Yankees. He was a pretty good pitcher going 18-10 for the Jays his contract year. I would be happy if Morrow can do that.

Mitchell133
09-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Just let him uh suck.. He's a lost cause.

T.O. Fan
09-14-2011, 07:05 PM
I personally view this season as Morrow's sophmore year and hope that next year he'll be able to put it all together.

CheeznWingz
09-15-2011, 06:06 AM
Just let him uh suck.. He's a lost cause.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic. Morrow is a solid pitcher when he is on. He is still young, and he is only in his second year being put in a situaton where he is a big piece of a teams rotation. I think it's just a matter of fatigue. I am a little concerned, but I think this slump will motivate him in the off season, possibly work on conditioning and his control.

Valleyfella
09-15-2011, 07:43 AM
I think it's pointless to just send him out every 5 days to get shelled. It's a little late in the year, but he may need to make significant changes to his delivery and go down to the minors to work on it. If he starts the year inconsistently next year, I think they shouldn't hesitate to send him down. His upside is just too high to give up on him, but you can't just leave him in the rotation when he's that inconsistent.

mtf
09-15-2011, 09:43 AM
Ok...we'll compete in 2014-15...no wait...better make that '16-'17 because we'll need to hang in there and not give up on someone because they'll become a great player.

BTW...what expert said this? Links? I'm pretty sure everyone was saying that Drabek, Cecil and Morrow would come into there own. At least improve...not get worse.

I'm not sure why you're taking the panic childlike position that I was saying they can't compete for years to come. I'm not even sure if you read my post that you had quoted before you started rambling. At no point did I talk about which year they should compete.

And yeah, I'll be right back getting you links of 6-10 month old radio & tv broadcasts while you take the opposing position and don't provide your own evidence of stuff that you remember.

StayOnBoard
09-15-2011, 12:04 PM
Just let him uh suck.. He's a lost cause.

So are you but we're still nice about it :)

Man, only in Toronto when a guy like Morrow has this kind of stuff with 66 CAREER starts under his belt is being run out of town.

SMH

passengershawn
09-15-2011, 12:25 PM
I hear everyone using the "he only has 68 career starts under his belt...give him time" and "he's still young and needs time to figure things out" arguments.

Fact is that Morrow is 27, and even as an early RP with Seattle, he wasn't exactly lights out (mid 3-mid 4 ERA with lots of BB). I'm fine with him being the #5 SP if he doesn't turn things around, but if this is what he is...I'd say package him in a deal to Cincy with Loewen and McQuire for Votto:)

StayOnBoard
09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
I hear everyone using the "he only has 68 career starts under his belt...give him time" and "he's still young and needs time to figure things out" arguments.

Fact is that Morrow is 27, and even as an early RP with Seattle, he wasn't exactly lights out (mid 3-mid 4 ERA with lots of BB). I'm fine with him being the #5 SP if he doesn't turn things around, but if this is what he is...I'd say package him in a deal to Cincy with Loewen and McQuire for Votto:)

I'd love to see Morrow traded - only because of the amount of crying, *****ing and whining this entire forum would have when the guy turned it on and started playing to his potential.

Pitchers mature later than batters as a general rule... and Im not saying Morrow is going to be a staff ace or a pure stud. I'm saying, it's too early to give up on the guy because he's had a rocky end to this season. If he sucks by this time next year, then fine... stick him in as a 5th starter and don't worry about it. But the patience in Blue-Jays-land is embarrassing. Everyone wants instant superstars. Seriously, stick to hockey or football, it rarely happens in baseball.

wagnall
09-15-2011, 06:28 PM
I want to see him work out during the winter and come back next year and see what he has to offer. It is fustrating when you see his potential, but wonder how long it will take to get there. But I'd like to see him at camp.
Now if he is involved in a trade for Votto, got to let him go. Best player wins there!

ghost dog
09-16-2011, 01:12 AM
So are you but we're still nice about it :)

Man, only in Toronto when a guy like Morrow has this kind of stuff with 66 CAREER starts under his belt is being run out of town.

SMH

His arm is done for the year. When a pitcher gets tired the first thing to go is control. Muscle memory gives way to a less stressful motion which causes wildness.

StayOnBoard
09-16-2011, 08:10 AM
His arm is done for the year. When a pitcher gets tired the first thing to go is control. Muscle memory gives way to a less stressful motion which causes wildness.

Oh I agree with you - and I think they should shut him down. Just saying, the guy has the talent and he's still only had 2 seasons as a starter. It's awful early to give up on him but people want to trade him for Jayson Nix and Nyjer Morgan.... :rolleyes:

Only in Toronto....

R. Johnson#3
09-17-2011, 01:24 PM
If you have been paying attention this year Morrow was far more effective in the 1st half with Molina as his caddy. Glad you do not think pitchers should have personal catchers but Francona and LaRussa disagree with you.
And it makes me laugh when people make a comparison to AJ Burnett assuming it is a negative.
Dude is done like dinner but there was a reason he got a $16.5 million/year 5 year ticket from the Yankees. He was a pretty good pitcher going 18-10 for the Jays his contract year. I would be happy if Morrow can do that.

I have been paying attention and Morrow has been sucking all year long. Like I said before, he's inconsistent. He'll have one good start then follow it up with 3 bad ones.

There is a reason Burnett got that deal with the Yankees. It's because the amount middle-of-the-line pitchers were getting at that time was insane. Talk to Jeff Suppan about that one. Burnett was an average pitcher at best. I compare Morrow to him because he has the same consistency issues, is the same kind of pitcher and the fact that everyone is talking about this potential he has but has yet to show it. But then again, Morrow is 27 where as people were still saying Burnett had potential at the tender age of 31.

nithanyo
09-17-2011, 01:54 PM
Morrow shouldn't be traded unless we were getting a really good return. However I wouldnt even pencil in morrow as a top 3 starter for 2012. He can be our #4 or 5 and work his way up the depth chart

es0terik
09-17-2011, 02:38 PM
Morrow shouldn't be traded unless we were getting a really good return. However I wouldnt even pencil in morrow as a top 3 starter for 2012.
Yeah because we just have an overwhelming flood of top-end starters at our disposal, don't we. :rolleyes:

Morrow is a #3 starter, behind Romero, and a Wilson or Darvish.
And in that case if we DO get an ace like Wilson or Darvish, with Romero continuing to perform like he has, and if Henderson can continue to improve then you can talk about putting Morrow 4th, and that would be nearing the end of 2012/start of 2013.

Jamiecballer
09-17-2011, 04:14 PM
Morrow shouldn't be traded unless we were getting a really good return. However I wouldnt even pencil in morrow as a top 3 starter for 2012. He can be our #4 or 5 and work his way up the depth chart

this guys got it. if we go into next season expecting Morrow to be our number 2 or 3 we've had a disastrous off-season.

mtf
09-17-2011, 05:39 PM
this guys got it. if we go into next season expecting Morrow to be our number 2 or 3 we've had a disastrous off-season.

I know for fans, it's a foregone conclusion that the Blue Jays will dive head firsts into the free agency pool and try to make a big splash. Paul Beeston has even hinted as such earlier this season. But fans thought last year the Jays could contend if they landed Lee & Crawford. I'm much more skeptical than most I guess, but I would be surprised to see Pujols, Votto, Fielder, Sabathia, Wilson or Darvish wearing a Blue Jays uniform next season.

nithanyo
09-17-2011, 08:29 PM
Yeah because we just have an overwhelming flood of top-end starters at our disposal, don't we. :rolleyes:

Morrow is a #3 starter, behind Romero, and a Wilson or Darvish.
And in that case if we DO get an ace like Wilson or Darvish, with Romero continuing to perform like he has, and if Henderson can continue to improve then you can talk about putting Morrow 4th, and that would be nearing the end of 2012/start of 2013.

morrow has the potential to be a staff ace let alone a number three. however with his inconsistencies i wouldn't slot him above 4 or 5 for now at least until he learns to be consistent. We desperately need pitching help right now and with beeston not wanting to give out big contracts its apparent were not gonna get significant help from free agency cus of Beestons policy to not give long term contracts.

Billyen
09-17-2011, 08:40 PM
morrow has the potential

You lost me at potential.
I, at the very least...need improvement from last season.

ghost dog
09-17-2011, 09:00 PM
Morrow shouldn't be traded unless we were getting a really good return. However I wouldnt even pencil in morrow as a top 3 starter for 2012. He can be our #4 or 5 and work his way up the depth chart

who on the current staff would you put 2-3-4 that you can say with a straight face is better?

nithanyo
09-18-2011, 12:17 AM
who on the current staff would you put 2-3-4 that you can say with a straight face is better?

thats exactly my point. we have 2-3 holes in our rotation right now. But if morrow is our second best pitcher than we are in big trouble.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 01:01 AM
thats exactly my point. we have 2-3 holes in our rotation right now. But if morrow is our second best pitcher than we are in big trouble.

At the start of the season when he's striking out 10 a game all love people thought he should be the ace, Now he gets tired because of the total pitch count from those same strike outs it's all hate He's not a top 3. :facepalm:

GrantHustle
09-18-2011, 02:08 AM
At the start of the season when he's striking out 10 a game all love people thought he should be the ace, Now he gets tired because of the total pitch count from those same strike outs it's all hate He's not a top 3. :facepalm:

A lot of pitchers get tired during the course of the year? and he's not a top 3 he hasn't done anything constant enough to be considered a top 3 in a rotation....he's a 4-5 right now....although i would give him one more full year before anyone gives up on him....but i would love to see a big time improvement next year and he needs a real off speed pitch for next year

mtf
09-18-2011, 02:47 AM
At the start of the season when he's striking out 10 a game all love people thought he should be the ace, Now he gets tired because of the total pitch count from those same strike outs it's all hate He's not a top 3. :facepalm:

I believe you're thinking of the end of last year, not the beginning of this year.

Morrow was injured for a while to start the season, and he wasn't exactly amazing right after he got back. He had a few good games here and there throughout the season, but it was pretty back and forth. 1 good game, then 1 bad one. Then we stopped getting a good game following a bad one.

It isn't time to trade him, unless the offer is pretty decent, but it isn't like his arm just fell off due to being overworked. He's just slumped.

rapsjaysfan88
09-18-2011, 01:05 PM
if morrow develops a good changeup/ contact pitch for doubleplay groundballs he will be an elite pitcher.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 03:55 PM
Now he shuts out NY with 8 Ks can we please go back to placing the hate where it belongs.E.E.

Halladay
09-18-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm the biggest Morrow supporter you'll find but lets face it here, he basically just faced the Yankees triple A team.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 04:03 PM
I'm the biggest Morrow supporter you'll find but lets face it here, he basically just faced the Yankees triple A team.

And beat them. They have the best farm in baseball or am I wrong.

Halladay
09-18-2011, 04:10 PM
And beat them. They have the best farm in baseball or am I wrong.

Not their actual farm team, they're bench players.

es0terik
09-18-2011, 04:11 PM
And beat them. They have the best farm in baseball or am I wrong.

Are you kidding me? Not even close... the Yankees farm is like 12-13th best in the majors.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 04:14 PM
Are you kidding me? Not even close... the Yankees farm is like 12-13th best in the majors.

Then I'm wrong,But he still had a good game :clap:

wagnall
09-18-2011, 05:40 PM
The only way Morrow is not here next TC, is if he's part of this hopeful deal for Votto. Actually I'd make a deal for both Votto and Phillips. He would follow Votto I think. Just imagining, would happen in my mind if AA really wants them. I'm a thinkin that he would pull every string he has to get Votto, but not Fielder.

FlakeyFool
09-18-2011, 05:42 PM
Are you kidding me? Not even close... the Yankees farm is like 12-13th best in the majors.

They were way higher than 12 or 13

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 05:57 PM
Are you kidding me? Not even close... the Yankees farm is like 12-13th best in the majors.

ok 5th

R. Johnson#3
09-18-2011, 05:58 PM
The only way Morrow is not here next TC, is if he's part of this hopeful deal for Votto. Actually I'd make a deal for both Votto and Phillips. He would follow Votto I think. Just imagining, would happen in my mind if AA really wants them. I'm a thinkin that he would pull every string he has to get Votto, but not Fielder.

Morrow has little or no trade value.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 05:59 PM
Morrow has little or no trade value.

Based on?

Toxeryll
09-18-2011, 06:02 PM
why trade morrow, his value is at an all-time low. if anything, we should extend him

wagnall
09-18-2011, 06:07 PM
If he's here next year, he'll have time to show he deserves an extension. And I don't think he has no trade value. Put his name out there and Jays will have will have many callers. IMHO

nithanyo
09-18-2011, 06:30 PM
Right now the jays have to consider Morrow as a back of the rotation starter while giving him 0 guarantee for a starting role next season. He has to earn it out of ST. That means they probably need to try and get 2 front end pitchers with Morrow and Alvarez rounding out the rotation.

Right now this is how i see the 2012 rotation

1)open
2)Romero
3)open
4)Morrow
5)Alvarez

Mgowan imo has to earn his spot on the team as well. The comeback story is fine and dandy but if he can't throw strikes and get Major league batters he shouldn't be given a starting role

GNick
09-18-2011, 06:36 PM
Now he shuts out NY with 8 Ks can we please go back to placing the hate where it belongs.E.E.

Yankees are basically playing out the string and resting their best players.

wagnall
09-18-2011, 06:53 PM
Angels series much better test, they have to win and will through everything they have. NY is in already.

StayOnBoard
09-18-2011, 06:54 PM
Morrow has little or no trade value.

Why do people make stupid comments like this?

jaysfan4ever
09-18-2011, 07:12 PM
why trade morrow, his value is at an all-time low. if anything, we should extend him

Yikes.

First off, why would Morrow sign an extension that pays him like a #4/5 starter?

Secondly, a lot of people would argue that Morrow's trade value is pretty high. Among starting pitchers, he was 2nd in the majors in K/9 this year, and 1st in the majors last year. GMs know this, and National League teams will be lining up at the gates to trade for Morrow, because all you have to do in the NL is strike guys out. Just ask Javier Vazquez and AJ Burnett. Plus, there's always the "change of scenery" argument that had the Cardinals trading for Edwin Jackson as a top-of-the-rotation guy. I have no doubt that AA can market Morrow as a #3 on the cusp of becoming a #1-2, and get a fair return.

The problem is that if we keep Morrow for a year, and he puts up #4/5 starter numbers, Morrow transforms from the "2nd-year starter with unlimited potential" to the "struggling starter with a live arm who might come cheap as a reclamation project".

With 2 years in the Jays rotation and no improvement, maybe it's time to accept that Morrow is just one of those guys that can't pitch in the AL East. Heck if Randy Johnson and Josh Beckett can have ERAs of 5 in the AL East, why are we so quick to assume that Brandon Morrow won't flop?

rapsjaysfan88
09-18-2011, 07:39 PM
it's a win win because if he fails as a starter he can become a dominate closer. so he's a good asset.

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 09:02 PM
Why do people make stupid comments like this?

yeah what you said

3mikee_
09-18-2011, 09:05 PM
After today, best pitcher in baseball.

lol jk, who knows what he is sigh... inconsistency at its finest being displayed by Morrow

ghost dog
09-18-2011, 09:14 PM
After today, best pitcher in baseball.

lol jk, who knows what he is sigh... inconsistency at its finest being displayed by Morrow

If only he did that 3 out of 4 starts

Toxeryll
09-18-2011, 10:13 PM
Yikes.

First off, why would Morrow sign an extension that pays him like a #4/5 starter?

Secondly, a lot of people would argue that Morrow's trade value is pretty high. Among starting pitchers, he was 2nd in the majors in K/9 this year, and 1st in the majors last year. GMs know this, and National League teams will be lining up at the gates to trade for Morrow, because all you have to do in the NL is strike guys out. Just ask Javier Vazquez and AJ Burnett. Plus, there's always the "change of scenery" argument that had the Cardinals trading for Edwin Jackson as a top-of-the-rotation guy. I have no doubt that AA can market Morrow as a #3 on the cusp of becoming a #1-2, and get a fair return.

The problem is that if we keep Morrow for a year, and he puts up #4/5 starter numbers, Morrow transforms from the "2nd-year starter with unlimited potential" to the "struggling starter with a live arm who might come cheap as a reclamation project".

With 2 years in the Jays rotation and no improvement, maybe it's time to accept that Morrow is just one of those guys that can't pitch in the AL East. Heck if Randy Johnson and Josh Beckett can have ERAs of 5 in the AL East, why are we so quick to assume that Brandon Morrow won't flop?

i dont know if Morrow would want to sign an extension but IMO the Jays should try hard to ink him. Like you said, hes only in his 2nd year starting in the bigs, hes still developing and thats why we should not give up on him just yet. He got a special arm and a K rate that is comparable to all-time greats. IMO he just needs to refine his changeup or add an effective third pitch like Alvarez such as a cutter to take the next step.

nithanyo
09-19-2011, 12:31 AM
If only he did that 3 out of 4 starts

8ip 0er every 3/4 starts? You're talking bout cy young there. even then he wouldn't have been that great

Morrow has the stuff to be great. If he finds the consistency he can be a nice number 2. right now he is a number 4 at best with all his inconsistencies. If Morrow is our number 3 or better next season we are in big trouble

2009mvp
09-19-2011, 01:11 AM
John Farrell:

On the cutter…

“What he has done, is he has taken his slider and tightened it up some. So a lot of the pitches where he was in fastball counts, he would go to the cutter, 3-1 fly ball to right field from Rodriguez, a couple of foul balls at the plate. Then he used his curveball a little bit more as a finishing pitch.

“It’s just a slight adjustment off his slider but yeah he used it. The breaking balls you’re seeing 88-91.

http://gregorchisholm.mlblogs.com/

ghost dog
09-19-2011, 11:46 PM
8ip 0er every 3/4 starts? You're talking bout cy young there. even then he wouldn't have been that great

Morrow has the stuff to be great. If he finds the consistency he can be a nice number 2. right now he is a number 4 at best with all his inconsistencies. If Morrow is our number 3 or better next season we are in big trouble

He has the stuff to be great and I'm betting on him.