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View Full Version : If Drabek can throw strikes = CLOSER?



JaysHabs
09-07-2011, 10:08 AM
If Drabek can throw some strikes would it makes sense to give him a shot at closer to gain some confidence and experience working in the bigs with guys like Hentgen and Walton?

He could come in for an inning and just do his crazy man let it all air out Wild Thing impersonation.

Go Jays.

JaysHabs
09-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Plus I didnt have time to look through all the other post to see if this topic had been discussed yet, put down, or anything.

Any thoughts?

makochin
09-07-2011, 10:13 AM
lol....if he can throw strikes he could be the ace of our staff.

Krylian
09-07-2011, 10:14 AM
Exactly.

Closers are failed starters. 1/2 a season for a 23 year old does not make a failed starter.

JaysHabs
09-07-2011, 10:16 AM
Obviously I would also prefer him to be a starter, and obviously I wouldnt give up on him being a starter after just 20 starts, but we have been desperate since Ward and Henke, except for a couple lucky years with BJ and Billy.

Krylian
09-07-2011, 10:24 AM
Thinking you're desperate is never a reason to make a rash decision.

What Drabek needs is to work with the coaches this September and come in during some low pressure situations to focus on his mechanics and executing his pitches, not seeing if he can close.

Bob_at_york
09-07-2011, 10:26 AM
I wondered myself what would happen if he pitches well out of the bullpen. We do need a closer in the future. It could end up being him.

DwayneMVPwade
09-07-2011, 10:37 AM
If he can throw strikes he can be one of the best STARTING pitchers.

JaysFan87
09-07-2011, 10:39 AM
If he can throw strikes then I want him as a starter. Don't know why everyone is so quick to move a highly touted prospects to the closer spot when if they can perform they can give you 200 IP.

koreancabbage
09-07-2011, 10:45 AM
it's either Drabek or McGowan for the closer position in my mind.

Romero
FREE AGENT
Morrow
Alvarez
McGowan/Drabek

unless we trade Morrow for another young starting pitcher or player, Morrow is groomed to be in the rotation. mcGowan and Drabek are the only firestarter pitchers who have the pitches to be a closer in my mind (and who are ready or almost ready to be that player)

GNick
09-07-2011, 12:05 PM
If Drabek can throw some strikes would it makes sense to give him a shot at closer to gain some confidence and experience working in the bigs with guys like Hentgen and Walton?

He could come in for an inning and just do his crazy man let it all air out Wild Thing impersonation.

Go Jays.

Could be...just for the final 3 weeks you mean...get a look at Drabek in this position. I think they are still developing Drabek, not sure how that will fit in this role though.

JaysHabs
09-07-2011, 12:26 PM
I really like what I saw from McGowan last night, and 3 years ago everyone envisioned him to be the Jays ace. I'd like Dusty to get a shot at the 2-3 hole. Who knows maybe McGowan gets his groove back and Drabek learns to pitch. Then our starting 5 would be set going into next year with RR, Morrow, Alvarez, McGowan and Drabek. Sure it would be nice to have a 2 lefty but Cecil, Perez and Mills dont really impress like the other 5.

Twitchy
09-07-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm going to echo the "If he could throw strikes he would be a starter".

jon32
09-07-2011, 04:14 PM
lets make romero our set up man while were at it .

Kelly Gruber
09-07-2011, 05:05 PM
Too young to go there yet. Not physically imposing either, which you like to see in a closer. Let's just get him to throw strikes and see what happens then. But personally I don't see him as a closer.

mtf
09-07-2011, 05:28 PM
It's been kind of funny watching & listening to Blue Jays fans this year. The ridiculous suggestions that have come about due to being subjected to watching this years horrible bullpen have been fairly amusing.

Mike McCoy had a 1-2-3 inning this year as well, "I think he deserves a shot" (the blue jay fan motto)

Go team!

TO Rapz
09-07-2011, 06:24 PM
With your username, I dont take you seriously at all.

mtf
09-07-2011, 06:36 PM
With your username, I dont take you seriously at all.

Are you really in a position to say that to anyone legitimately? :P

TO Rapz
09-07-2011, 09:38 PM
Are you really in a position to say that to anyone legitimately? :P

Yes..Im a Toronto Maple Leafs, Raptors, Jays fan and the Saints are my favourite team and always will be, whats wrong with that?

3mikee_
09-07-2011, 09:55 PM
If anything, being a closer will destroy his confidence. His stuff ain't built to be a closer imo.

leafsrule99
09-07-2011, 10:38 PM
way too early to tell...he hasnt even had a full year in majors

Halladay
09-07-2011, 11:49 PM
The guys being brought along as a starter and IF he can throw strikes why would you waste his starting ability in the bullpen? It's amazing how quickly people are giving up on him. Reminds me of when people gave up on McGowan and Romero. Yes, that's right. Everyone crapped all over those guys too. I've been here long enough to know.

passengershawn
09-08-2011, 12:43 AM
and Mariano Rivera is physically imposing?

mtf
09-08-2011, 02:03 AM
Yes..Im a Toronto Maple Leafs, Raptors, Jays fan and the Saints are my favourite team and always will be, whats wrong with that?


With a name like "T.O. RaPz--Le@F", well... it looks like it's the internet equivalent of writing in crayon. I don't actually care, and I don't know who you were initially criticizing, but those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Kelly Gruber
09-08-2011, 02:56 PM
and Mariano Rivera is physically imposing?

He's 6-2 with a disgusting cutter and 600 career saves... So yes. Mariano Rivera is imposing in every sense of the word.

I get what you're saying here, but generally you want a big body presence closing out games. There are exceptions to every standard. Wes Welker is a hell of a reciever, does that mean everyone is going to look for 5-9 wideouts? No, generally you're still going to look for big, tall recievers. Same idea here.

1hardcore
09-08-2011, 03:53 PM
I'd rather have Morrow Closing

Krylian
09-08-2011, 03:54 PM
and Mariano Rivera is physically imposing?

Not physically imposing. But he's imposing in the sense of he's earned his reputation as one of the best closers ever and someone who has been respected and feared by hitters for probably 15 years now.

darius
09-09-2011, 09:29 AM
If Drabek can throw some strikes would it makes sense to give him a shot at closer to gain some confidence and experience working in the bigs with guys like Hentgen and Walton?

He could come in for an inning and just do his crazy man let it all air out Wild Thing impersonation.

Go Jays.

Closers need two things to be effective (other than sheer ability), the ability to throw strikes, and the ability to keep their shizzle together during high pressure situations.

Drabek does neither. So, he'd be my very last choice for closer.

On the current squad, I like Jannsen. But actually Francisco's ERA is finally under 4, maybe he's the guy.

GNick
09-10-2011, 06:53 AM
Closers need two things to be effective (other than sheer ability), the ability to throw strikes, and the ability to keep their shizzle together during high pressure situations.

Drabek does neither. So, he'd be my very last choice for closer.

On the current squad, I like Jannsen. But actually Francisco's ERA is finally under 4, maybe he's the guy.

Francisco has choked enough in the closer's role

ghost dog
09-11-2011, 01:47 AM
Exactly.

Closers are failed starters. 1/2 a season for a 23 year old does not make a failed starter.

why does it have to be a failed SP can't a guy with the stuff be groomed for the job?

GNick
09-11-2011, 09:39 AM
I am not that concerned over Drabek, still see him as future #2 or #3 starter. It is common for young arms to struggle early on in their major league career and be optioned up and down a few times. I can remember Roy Halladay's 2000 season, and remember Chris Carpenter back in either 1998 or 1999. Both of them struggled terribly those years but went on to win Cy Youngs and good careers. Even around the league Jon Lester or Clay Buckholz were optioned up and down back in 2006 and 2007.

As long as Drabek's arm is sound, he works hard with good attitude and coaches are positive on him this is rather normal.

jaysfan4ever
09-12-2011, 12:39 PM
why does it have to be a failed SP can't a guy with the stuff be groomed for the job?

Because you don't have to throw strikes to be an effective bullpen guy. All you need is to strike guys out (for the most part). It's almost par for the course to walk a batter every 2 innings.

The main problem with grooming someone with great stuff for the closer's job is that you don't know what you were missing out with them as a starter. With the kind of stuff that your "closing spec" would have, he could be the next Felix Hernandez or Clayton Kershaw. We traded for Morrow for that very reason.

And btw, Sergio Santos now closing for the White Sox was a former Jays shortstop prospect. Figure that one out LOL.

mtf
09-12-2011, 12:47 PM
why does it have to be a failed SP can't a guy with the stuff be groomed for the job?

Because when scouts say that he has front of the rotation potential, you don't decide "well, in the rebuilding year we lacked a closer, lets turn one of our top prospects into a closer".

Think of it this way, what if the Jays had decided back in 2000 that Roy Halladay should be a closer because he had a horrible year as a starter. What a lot of wasted potential that would've been.

Alex Anthopoulos has said on several occasions that they have no intention of moving Adeiny Hechavarria to second base, just so they can rush him to the majors because as a shortstop, he is a more valuable commodity. The same is true of Drabek, at least for now, where the potential is still very high. The same is true of Morrow.

McJoe
09-12-2011, 01:10 PM
I thought about this the other day but like I'm sure many of you have said, making him the closer right now doesn't make any sense. If he can start throwing some strikes, he still has top of the rotation potential and he was the biggest piece in the Doc trade. Making him a closer now, maybe gets you a closer but also means you may or may not be missing out on an ace. And we don't exactly have a stellar starting rotation right now.

Krylian
09-12-2011, 01:10 PM
why does it have to be a failed SP can't a guy with the stuff be groomed for the job?

Because a pitcher than can deliver 200 quality innings is more valuable than a guy who gives you 60.

bartron_44
09-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Because a pitcher than can deliver 200 quality innings is more valuable than a guy who gives you 60.

While I am not a huge advocate for making Drabek our closer, I think your whole....Relievers are failed starters, and starters have more value then Relievers is a bit over emphasized.

I just want to throw a few names out there.......

1) Jonathan Papelbon.

Papelbon came up as a very highly touted starter. A potential "ace" on most teams. However, when he was promoted to the bigs in late July of 2004, he was pretty much immediately turned into a reliever after just 3 starts at the age of 24....and they were 3 good ones. Then at the young age of 25, he was turned into the closer for a team challenging for a playoff spot year after year. Did he "fail as a starter"?...no. Has he been one of the best stoppers in baseball over the past 6 years?....yes

2) Francisco Rodriguez

KRod was turned into a reliever at the age of 19!! He was promoted to the big leagues at the age of 20, and never started a game above high A ball. He dominated High A ball at the age of 18, so I don't think we can call him a "failed starter" either, as he was never really given a chance.

3) Mariano Rivera

Was a very successful starter throughout his 5 minor league seasons, and was turned into a reliever after only 10 starts in the big leagues. Is that a large enough sample to call him a "failed starter"....I think not. If it is, then by your own logic we should chalk up Drabek as a "failed starter" too.

4) Craig Kimbrel

Never started a single game in the minors, and he began his pro career at the age of 20. If the Braves wanted to, I am sure they could have made him a starter if they thought that increased his value tot he team. However, I think think they saw just how valuable a true lock down closer can be in a tight competitive division where blown saves are HUGE at the end of the year. I think Kimbrel could have been the Braves ace too with his fastball command and breaking ball.

5) Billy Wagner

Wagner was always a starter in the minor leagues (and a good one), but never got a chance to start a single game in the majors. He is far from physically imposing, and he definitely never failed as a starter. He was just moved into the bullpen cause they saw the value he could provide.

These guys are only a few examples off the top of my head, so I am sure there are plenty of other examples out there. Therefore I don't think you can generalize and say that you MUST exhaust a starting pitchers worth as a starter before making him a reliever... Especially if you are a team deep on pitching, and in a highly talented, very competitive division like the AL or NL East. While we aren't deep on pitching yet, we will be in the next 2 years, and I think a shut down reliever would be worth his weight in gold.If he can even save us 4 or 5 blown saves a year compared to this year...that is a pretty major upgrade, and we would be 10 games above .500 right now. Also, most top closers can throw 70-80..and in some cases up to 100 innings out of the bullpen too, not 60. And, most starters also aren't giving you over 200 innings year in and year out, so I think you exaggerated your numbers a little bit.

I think Drabek dwells too much on the negatives when they happen right now to be a closer, but he has the stuff to be a VERY, VERY good one. Fastball sitting 95-97, a spike curveball, and changeup with devastating movement. Sure, if he can learn to throw strikes that would also make him a good closer, but he definitely wouldn't be the only successful starter in history to be turned into a closer at a young age.

Twitchy
09-12-2011, 03:05 PM
Papelbon had shoulder issues which is part of the reason he was in the pen.
K-Rod really only had 1-2 pitches coming up.
Rivera was 25 when he had those 10 starts.
Kimbrel only throws 2 pitches.
Wagner only throws 2 pitches.

Notice a pattern? Most relievers are guys with only 2 pitches. Papelbon had injury concerns early in his career, and Rivera was 26 when he got his shot at his first full season.

So when you get a guy who is 23, has multiple pitches, and is really past any sort of injury concern...you have to make sure that he flat out can't make it as a SP before you throw him in the pen. And Drabek isn't at that point yet.

wagnall
09-12-2011, 03:13 PM
To me Drabek is a starter whether it be here or if he's delt for some reason. But time and starts will tell. What a bonus if he gets it right that he would be in the rotation. But he's a 23 yr. old who acted like a 10 year old, if he gets that straightenen out I see him next year as a SP in our rotation!

******2017
09-12-2011, 03:28 PM
I wouldn't screw around with him in the bullpen unless he's gonna stay there for his whole career. He's a starter and will be a legit starter. He's young enough to turn it around. When teams do this to good young starters I always think of Joba.

wagnall
09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
^this

ghost dog
09-12-2011, 07:31 PM
Papelbon had shoulder issues which is part of the reason he was in the pen.
K-Rod really only had 1-2 pitches coming up.
Rivera was 25 when he had those 10 starts.
Kimbrel only throws 2 pitches.
Wagner only throws 2 pitches.

Notice a pattern? Most relievers are guys with only 2 pitches. Papelbon had injury concerns early in his career, and Rivera was 26 when he got his shot at his first full season.

So when you get a guy who is 23, has multiple pitches, and is really past any sort of injury concern...you have to make sure that he flat out can't make it as a SP before you throw him in the pen. And Drabek isn't at that point yet.

Alvarez has 2 pitches
Carreno same
Groom one of them
And why you got a crazy man sig.

Krylian
09-12-2011, 07:38 PM
Alvarez has 2 pitches
Carreno same
Groom one of them
And why you got a crazy man sig.

Alvarez has a slider that's coming along. That will determine whether he can be a solid starter or not.

Carreno's future is in the pen.

Twitchy
09-12-2011, 08:03 PM
Alvarez has 2 pitches
Carreno same
Groom one of them
And why you got a crazy man sig.

Alvarez primarily relies on his sinking fastball, which lets him get the extreme GB rate. He does have two other pitches (Slider/Change) but he's not using them as often.

So no, he doesn't have two pitches.

ghost dog
09-12-2011, 08:23 PM
Alvarez primarily relies on his sinking fastball, which lets him get the extreme GB rate. He does have two other pitches (Slider/Change) but he's not using them as often.

So no, he doesn't have two pitches.

Has slider spins & floats back over the plate,Then gets crushed.
So I disagree he has 2 mlb pitches.

Twitchy
09-12-2011, 08:47 PM
Well I'm glad that you've watched a grand total of 30-40 innings from a 21 year old kid and decided his pitch isn't major league quality. That settles it!

ghost dog
09-13-2011, 02:00 AM
Well I'm glad that you've watched a grand total of 30-40 innings from a 21 year old kid and decided his pitch isn't major league quality. That settles it!

At this point in his career the pitch is not, I'm not hating just saying right now he has two quality pitches. Will the slider be good, not every pitcher can throw it so it's hard to tell but right now it's a gift to hitters

JaysFan87
09-13-2011, 11:33 AM
Alvarez has 2 pitches
Carreno same
Groom one of them
And why you got a crazy man sig.

Developing third pitch slider


At this point in his career the pitch is not, I'm not hating just saying right now he has two quality pitches. Will the slider be good, not every pitcher can throw it so it's hard to tell but right now it's a gift to hitters

Its hard to write off anyone at 21.

JaysHabs
09-13-2011, 12:04 PM
So how long do you wait until you decide what role Drabek will play?

If you have Romero, Morrow (?), Alvarez (?), McGowan (?) and Cecil (?) as your starters next year, and really there is only 1 to 3 locks there, plus guys like Hutchinson, McGuire, Molina, Wojciechowski, Mills (?) to name a few knocking on the door, how long do you wait for him?

Dont get me wrong I was and still am excited about Drabeks potential as a starter, but maybe you say to Drabek, hey you have too many pitches thats why you struggle, try just the fastball and change, do you then consider him a 2 pitch pitcher and relegate him as the Closer (although Closers shouldnt feel relegated, especially today).
Just thinking.

JaysFan87
09-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Mills is definitely not knocking on the door

******2017
09-13-2011, 12:30 PM
He's better suited to be at AAA. He did make the jump from AA to the majors which can really overmatch a guy too. I know it's nice to have the name to draw butts to the seats but you gotta make sure the guy is ready. Giving him a taste at the end of last year was fine but to put him in the rotation this year from the get go was a bad idea. He should be pitching this September again (maybe even a call up in in August) like last year after a successful year in the minors.

mtf
09-13-2011, 01:00 PM
So how long do you wait until you decide what role Drabek will play?

If you have Romero, Morrow (?), Alvarez (?), McGowan (?) and Cecil (?) as your starters next year, and really there is only 1 to 3 locks there, plus guys like Hutchinson, McGuire, Molina, Wojciechowski, Mills (?) to name a few knocking on the door, how long do you wait for him?

Dont get me wrong I was and still am excited about Drabeks potential as a starter, but maybe you say to Drabek, hey you have too many pitches thats why you struggle, try just the fastball and change, do you then consider him a 2 pitch pitcher and relegate him as the Closer (although Closers shouldnt feel relegated, especially today).
Just thinking.

I do not believe Asher Wojciechowski is knocking on the door, in fact I've read from a few sources recently that he projects to be a reliever in the future. He's had his struggles. Noah Syndergaard has had far more success than him this year, but he still has to climb the ranks of the minors in the next couple of years. As for Brad Mills, even if they keep this guy around, it's hard to see him as anything other than a bullpen guy.

The only guys who have a certain role in the starting rotation next year are Romero and likely Morrow. I doubt Nestor Molina, Chad Jenkins or Deck McGuire will be making the leap into the bigs to start 2012. Although I'd really love to see Hutchison make the jump, I have my doubts that it'd happen unless the Jays had huge gaps at the back end of their rotation as they did in both of the past 2 seasons.

Assuming the Jays do not acquire anyone at the big league level for next year, I think Cecil, Alvarez, McGowan, and Drabek will be competing for the other 3 spots. Even if Drabek cannot win a starting spot out of spring training 2012, there's no reason to cut him out of the Blue Jays plans for the future. They likely are not going to be competing for a pennant next year anyways, despite the optimism in Blue-Jay-Land, unless they make a big uncharacteristic splash in free agency (such as landing Pujols).

ghost dog
09-13-2011, 01:38 PM
Developing third pitch slider



Its hard to write off anyone at 21.

Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of His, It's the topic of 2 pitch pitchers and failed SP that got me to make a point. In no way am I writing him off, He is the second best SP on the staff right now with his 2 pitches

wagnall
09-13-2011, 03:18 PM
I look forward to seeing Hutchinson in ST. I think he can be our Pineda. But I still think that if we can sign Wilson I'd do it. Its money not prospects. I see in my fantasy.

Romero
Wilson
Morrow
Hutchinson
and 1 of several to pick from.

JMHO

mtf
09-13-2011, 05:26 PM
I look forward to seeing Hutchinson in ST. I think he can be our Pineda. But I still think that if we can sign Wilson I'd do it. Its money not prospects. I see in my fantasy.

Romero
Wilson
Morrow
Hutchinson
and 1 of several to pick from.

JMHO

I'm a bit apprehensive about the Blue Jays signing CJ Wilson for $100M/5. He's been a starter for 2 years and he has been pretty decent, but not insanely good. He just looks to cash in because it's a weak field of free agents for starting pitching.

Hutchison making the team out of spring training would be nice to see though, but I wouldn't put money on it happening.