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Mile High Champ
09-06-2011, 04:39 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

Chacarron
09-06-2011, 04:40 PM
Dwyane Wade gets my vote here.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Going D-Wade here.

MiamiWadeCounty
09-06-2011, 04:45 PM
Without bias, I am going D-wade here. Dirk had an amazing season and even better postseason but I can't move him up to 3rd in one year especially when he only dominates on one side of the ball. With that said, I would take Dirk 4th though as he is head and shoulders above other PFs at this point.

Mile High Champ
09-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Dirk managed to take down Wade and Lebron but he can't beat either of them out in this thread.. hmmm. Interesting. Dirk needs to finally get some respect and take this spot.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Dirk managed to take down Wade and Lebron but he can't beat either of them out in this thread.. hmmm. Interesting. Dirk needs to finally get some respect and take this spot.
I have nothing but respect for Dirk, but just because he managed to beat them doesn't make him the better player. This is a team sport after all.

JordansBulls
09-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Dirk should have been higher than this. Dude won the title as the only star on his team beating the two top favorites all year long who had players that most considered better than he was and did so without HCA and took a team that never won anything to become a NBA champion.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Dirk managed to take down Wade and Lebron but he can't beat either of them out in this thread.. hmmm. Interesting. Dirk needs to finally get some respect and take this spot.

with the system being used i wouldnt be surprised if Dirk was dragged out to 10th draggin other PF way more Down where they should be

Chronz
09-06-2011, 04:55 PM
Dirk managed to take down Wade and Lebron but he can't beat either of them out in this thread.. hmmm. Interesting. Dirk needs to finally get some respect and take this spot.
Having the 2 best players on the same team doesnt ensure victory. Did Kobe and Shaq win every year? Bron and Wade could very well win the next few chips, quite possibly in a less impressive fashion if theres a lock out.

Chronz
09-06-2011, 04:57 PM
with the system being used i wouldnt be surprised if Dirk was dragged out to 10th draggin other PF way more Down where they should be

Youll be surprised how great this ends up being, just watch

ManRam
09-06-2011, 05:03 PM
I think it's Wade or Durant...not sure who I'll vote for though.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Youll be surprised how great this ends up being, just watch

i tell you that you know who , who could be argued top 10 and should BY ALL MEANS be top 15 will get pushed Bellow 20.

NYKalltheway
09-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Did I see Andrew Bynum on the poll or are my eyes lying to me?

DLeeicious
09-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Is Bynum up there an inside joke?

Wade for me, then CP3, then Durant, then Dirk, then a player whose name can't be mentioned around these parts.

MiamiWadeCounty
09-06-2011, 05:10 PM
i tell you that you know who , who could be argued top 10 and should BY ALL MEANS be top 15 will get pushed Bellow 20.

Who? Pau Gasol? I got him in the 12-14 range.

ManRam
09-06-2011, 05:11 PM
Wait...Andrew Bynum :laugh:

NYKNYGNYY
09-06-2011, 05:13 PM
there is no way bynum should be up there idc if it goes by the position...bynum? really?

bholly
09-06-2011, 05:14 PM
Dirk should have been higher than this. Dude's team won the title as the only star on his team beating the two top favorites all year long who had players that most considered better than he was and did so without HCA and took a team that never won anything to become a NBA champion.

fyp


Did I see Andrew Bynum on the poll or are my eyes lying to me?

read the discussion in the last thread. the options come from the positional rankings done over the last couple of months. each poll has 5 options, each option is the best ranking player at each position who hasn't been picked yet. bynum is the best ranking center who hasn't been picked yet, so he's there. nobody's expecting him to be picked yet, but he has to be an option.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 05:14 PM
Who? Pau Gasol? I got him in the 12-14 range.

i disagree, but its a RESPECTABLE opinion that can easily be deffended.

Btu with this system he wont crack top 20

DLeeicious
09-06-2011, 05:16 PM
fyp



read the discussion in the last thread. the options come from the positional rankings done over the last couple of months. each poll has 5 options, each option is the best ranking player at each position who hasn't been picked yet. bynum is the best ranking center who hasn't been picked yet, so he's there. nobody's expecting him to be picked yet, but he has to be an option.

Ahhhhh that makes sense. I was sitting here wondering if this was real life, if this was where the NBA forum was 3 months into the lockout, had it gone completely insane?

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 05:17 PM
I got Dwyane Wade here.

dwadefan03
09-06-2011, 05:21 PM
did dwight really win number 2 over wade...thats a joke

Cano4prez
09-06-2011, 05:22 PM
did dwight really win number 2 over wade...thats a joke

Not really..

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 05:23 PM
did dwight really win number 2 over wade...thats a joke

Really? That's a joke? Tell us a again why is that a joke.

Da Knicks
09-06-2011, 05:25 PM
I voted Durant because of his age and because he looked good last year, but the main reason was so i can start voting for who i really think should be in the top 5.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 05:29 PM
did dwight really win number 2 over wade...thats a joke
I love Wade too, but Wade doesn't have the same impact Dwight does for his team.

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 05:34 PM
I voted Durant because of his age and because he looked good last year, but the main reason was so i can start voting for who i really think should be in the top 5.

This right here is where the method by MHC may start failing. Some may vote for a player by default so that they can get their guys on the board.

It's really ridiculous that this kind of thing must be done. Smh.

Could you give us a reason as to why exactly you think this mystery player should be top 5?

Bruno
09-06-2011, 05:36 PM
:laugh2: ManRam!

That's what I wanted to do.

Avenged
09-06-2011, 05:38 PM
I understand the process that the polls are going by but putting Bynum up there is a waste. You should have at least added another player worthy of top 5.

Avenged
09-06-2011, 05:39 PM
Anyways, going Chris Paul.

ManRam
09-06-2011, 05:42 PM
Yeah, no Rose and no Kobe, but Bynum instead, is just a joke :laugh2:

Bruno
09-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Yeah, no Rose and no Kobe, but Bynum instead, is just a joke :laugh2:

Aesthetically speaking, it looks ridiculous.

It makes sense if bureaucratic consistency is the priority.

Bruno
09-06-2011, 05:49 PM
I had to go Dirk here. Not the best defender left on the board, but he displayed scoring efficiency and offensive production over four playoff series that merits a top three selection, IMO.

ManRam
09-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I see how the polls are being derived...didn't read that part.

If that's his method, it works. Not sure it's the best way to go about things. Oh well.

kozelkid
09-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Went CP3 since #1 and continue to do so. Like I said before, as evident by his 08, 09 seasons and this postseason, when healthy, I don't think any player is more dominant.

kozelkid
09-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Yeah, no Rose and no Kobe, but Bynum instead, is just a joke :laugh2:

I don't mind the logic behind it. No chance Bynum wins anyway.
By the same token, as MHC mentioned, better than having a player higher than another player when he was lower than that same player on the position polls.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 05:57 PM
Went CP3 since #1 and continue to do so. Like I said before, as evident by his 08, 09 seasons and this postseason, when healthy, I don't think any player is more dominant.
It is good to see CP3 get the respect he deserves.

nycericanguy
09-06-2011, 05:58 PM
I understand the process that the polls are going by but putting Bynum up there is a waste. You should have at least added another player worthy of top 5.

Agreed, the center position should be an exception to the system being used here.

Just like you automatically started the BEST CENTER poll at #2 because Howard was a lock. In this case you should not add anymore centers after Howard and instead add 1 of each PF, SF, SG & PG. Give everyone more overall options and still keeps your system in place. Adding Bynum is just silly IMO.

Gators123
09-06-2011, 06:00 PM
Chris Paul

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 06:01 PM
Agreed, the center position should be an exception to the system being used here.

Just like you automatically started the BEST CENTER poll at #2 because Howard was a lock. In this case you should not add anymore centers after Howard and instead add 1 of each PF, SF, SG & PG. Give everyone more overall options and still keeps your system in place. Adding Bynum is just silly IMO.

no he should simply put 15 options in next poll and add the 3 best left at each position

da ThRONe
09-06-2011, 06:08 PM
The poll ends on my birthday. A CP3 vote would make a nice gift!

THE GIPPER
09-06-2011, 06:13 PM
CP3 is the best player on the board imo. I completely understand people voting for dwade but this vote should be much closer.

MagicBucsSox
09-06-2011, 06:19 PM
Chris Paul is a better player then anyone left

MJ-BULLS
09-06-2011, 06:59 PM
Why in the world is Andrew Bynum a option here? :laugh:

It was either Durant or Paul for me. I went with KD.

KnicksR4Real
09-06-2011, 07:02 PM
Why the hell is Bynum up there, put Melo up there.

IndiansFan337
09-06-2011, 07:04 PM
Dwyane Wade.

Why is Andrew Bynum even a choice? :confused:

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 07:11 PM
Interesting..... more mods have voted on this thread than most of the other threads like these made by MHC. Apparently however they didn't take a read through the earlier thread or the beginning of this one where MHC clearly explains his reasoning.

JordansBulls
09-06-2011, 07:11 PM
I don't mind the logic behind it. No chance Bynum wins anyway.
By the same token, as MHC mentioned, better than having a player higher than another player when he was lower than that same player on the position polls.

Well what if posters purposely voted Bynum to show the system is flawed?

SteBO
09-06-2011, 07:13 PM
Well what if posters purposely voted Bynum to show the system is flawed?
That's one might "what if" there JB.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 07:14 PM
And lol at ManRam voting for Andrew Bynum here :laugh2:

IndiansFan337
09-06-2011, 07:16 PM
Interesting..... more mods have voted on this thread than most of the other threads like these made by MHC. Apparently however they didn't take a read through the earlier thread or the beginning of this one where MHC clearly explains his reasoning.

I know who the best players are in the NBA; I don't need to read the reasoning for others' votes.

I don't think anyone would consider Bynum to be the higher than #3/4 of LAL's best players....Yet neither of the guys ahead of him are in this poll.

VCaintdead17
09-06-2011, 07:17 PM
Wade.

Although there's really no real clear cut winner here IMO.

And yeah, putting Bynum up there is pretty pointless, because your gonna have to put him up there seven more times since he's not a top ten player.

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 07:20 PM
I know who the best players are in the NBA; I don't need to read the reasoning for others' votes.

I don't think anyone would consider Bynum to be the higher than #3/4 of LAL's best players....Yet neither of the guys ahead of him are in this poll.

That too was my biggest gripe with the system the fact that Bynum would go so high but I am not talking about where he should rank however. I am talking about why MHC decided to take such a route. He explained himself (with help from Tredigs and Chronz) on countless occasions before as best as he could and for the most part the more knowledgeable poster around here came to an agreement that it made sense despite the fact that it may not go over well with the masses.

bholly
09-06-2011, 07:22 PM
I know who the best players are in the NBA; I don't need to read the reasoning for others' votes.

I don't think anyone would consider Bynum to be the higher than #3/4 of LAL's best players....Yet neither of the guys ahead of him are in this poll.

hahaha. you ask a question, someone tells you that it's been covered at length, and your response is 'i don't need to hear other people's opinions'?
all class.

KnicksR4Real
09-06-2011, 07:24 PM
Who? Pau Gasol? I got him in the 12-14 range.

No Amare

ragee
09-06-2011, 07:33 PM
I voted Durant because of his age and because he looked good last year, but the main reason was so i can start voting for who i really think should be in the top 5.

You just gave me a reason why not to vote for Durant... Anyway, i voted for Dirk but I don't mind Wade getting it...

naps
09-06-2011, 07:40 PM
#2 player hands down IMO is still left on the board, so I went with him.

theheatles
09-06-2011, 07:52 PM
i'm happy to see wade leading #3 voting, as it could easily be argued for dirk and even durant but all around you have to go with wade

jimm120
09-06-2011, 08:11 PM
I'm going to vote for Durant so melo can get on the board. Not that i think durant deserves so high, but i dont wany melo popping up very late in the options.


After durant (whom i rank around 7th or 8th) and melo are in, i'm voting for dirk, just so amare can even have a chance of appearing on this poll. Personally, i feel amare was always ranked around 12-14 before the 2010 season (just like how i had bosh slightly behind at 15....obviously things changed for both players). But with amare's level of play in 2010, i feel he elevated himself to #9 or #10.


So yeah, that is my sequence of voting JUST BECAUSE I WOULDNT WANT THSE PLAYERS APPEARING TOO LATE IN THE POLL.


If the poll was designed fluidly and normally, i'd probably go...

Lebron
Dwight
Wade
...
Paul
Kobe
Durant
Melo
...
Amare

Yes, i know there are two spots missing....but i love dirk but dont consider him top 8. I feel people are overrating because of the championship.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:18 PM
I'm going to vote for Durant so melo can get on the board. Not that i think durant deserves so high, but i dont wany melo popping up very late in the options.


After durant (whom i rank around 7th or 8th) and melo are in, i'm voting for dirk, just so amare can even have a chance of appearing on this poll. Personally, i feel amare was always ranked around 12-14 before the 2010 season (just like how i had bosh slightly behind at 15....obviously things changed for both players). But with amare's level of play in 2010, i feel he elevated himself to #9 or #10.


So yeah, that is my sequence of voting JUST BECAUSE I WOULDNT WANT THSE PLAYERS APPEARING TOO LATE IN THE POLL.


If the poll was designed fluidly and normally, i'd probably go...

Lebron
Dwight
Wade
...
Paul
Kobe
Durant
Melo
...
Amare

Yes, i know there are two spots missing....but i love dirk but dont consider him top 8. I feel people are overrating because of the championship.


and here we have it, the reason why this system does not work at all and leades to unrealistic results.

Chronz
09-06-2011, 08:21 PM
Well what if posters purposely voted Bynum to show the system is flawed?
JB how can Rose be an option when the guy voted ahead of him is still on the board?

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:22 PM
JB how can Rose be an option when the guy voted ahead of him is still on the board?

well how if we start by understandig its highly possible that the positional rankins may be also flawed....

Chronz
09-06-2011, 08:22 PM
and here we have it, the reason why this system does not work at all and leades to unrealistic results.
Where? I see one guy whos not voting truthfully, these will hinder any system, but this one is more accurate.

Chronz
09-06-2011, 08:23 PM
well how if we start by understandig its highly possible that the positional rankins may be also flawed....
They arent though, we went through the trouble of ranking them by position in the prior threads, now its time to group the best players. Which means it has to be one of the players whos next best at his position.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:24 PM
Where? I see one guy whos not voting truthfully, these will hinder any system, but this one is more accurate.

the system will never be perfect that it could be corrected if in teh first poll there were 15 options 3 per position.


is it that difficult to understand that maybe therre are 5 players from teh same position being top 10? with this system it will never happen.

Chronz
09-06-2011, 08:29 PM
the system will never be perfect that it could be corrected if in teh first poll there were 15 options 3 per position.
No that would only make things worse because it opens up the possibility for contradiction, imagine if the #2 ranked SG was voted ahead of the #1 ranked SG. That would make one of the prior list pointless and I dont think MHC wants his baby to end that way. There is ZERO need to have the #2 or 3 ranked player if the best player at the position is still available.



is it that difficult to understand that maybe therre are 5 players from teh same position being top 10? with this system it will never happen.
Your wrong, it can happen if the masses agree. For example if CP3 were to get voted then he would make it at #3 then people keep voting for the PG it you can fit them all in there ONE AT A TIME. Your making the mistake of assuming we're voting for everyone all at once, all we are doing is making sure the list stays consistent. This ensures that, it doesnt prevent anyone from going anywhere.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:31 PM
No that would only make things worse because it opens up the possibility for contradiction, imagine if the #2 ranked SG was voted ahead of the #1 ranked SG. That would make one of the prior list pointless and I dont think MHC wants his baby to end that way. There is ZERO need to have the #2 or 3 ranked player if the best player at the position is still available.


Your wrong, it can happen if the masses agree. For example if CP3 were to get voted then he would make it at #3 then people keep voting for the PG it you can fit them all in there ONE AT A TIME. Your making the mistake of assuming we're voting for everyone all at once, all we are doing is making sure the list stays consistent. This ensures that, it doesnt prevent anyone from going anywhere.

on the contrary, people may be able to correct WRONG DOINGS on previous polls, and new people may vote too making it more perfect.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 08:34 PM
Wade. As much respect as I have for Dirk, I refuse to let on playoff run sway my vote. Wade has been the all around better player for a few years.

ragee
09-06-2011, 08:35 PM
I'm going to vote for Durant so melo can get on the board. Not that i think durant deserves so high, but i dont wany melo popping up very late in the options.


After durant (whom i rank around 7th or 8th) and melo are in, i'm voting for dirk, just so amare can even have a chance of appearing on this poll. Personally, i feel amare was always ranked around 12-14 before the 2010 season (just like how i had bosh slightly behind at 15....obviously things changed for both players). But with amare's level of play in 2010, i feel he elevated himself to #9 or #10.


So yeah, that is my sequence of voting JUST BECAUSE I WOULDNT WANT THSE PLAYERS APPEARING TOO LATE IN THE POLL.


If the poll was designed fluidly and normally, i'd probably go...

Lebron
Dwight
Wade
...
Paul
Kobe
Durant
Melo
...
Amare

Yes, i know there are two spots missing....but i love dirk but dont consider him top 8. I feel people are overrating because of the championship.

Dirk is definitely better than Amare, Melo and Durant... How can you not give him respect for winning in the title when he does not have an all-start teammate on his team? What can those 3 do that Dirk can't? And please don't tell me defense...

Avenged
09-06-2011, 08:39 PM
Wade. As much respect as I have for Dirk, I refuse to let on playoff run sway my vote. Wade has been the all around better player for a few years.

No problem with Wade here.. but Dirk over cp3? why?

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:41 PM
No problem with Wade here.. but Dirk over cp3? why?

why Not?

Avenged
09-06-2011, 08:45 PM
why Not?

Because Chris Paul is more efficient overall (slightly but still) is worth more wins and wins per 48. He also makes others around him better and had an amazing series.

IndiansFan337
09-06-2011, 08:50 PM
hahaha. you ask a question, someone tells you that it's been covered at length, and your response is 'i don't need to hear other people's opinions'?
all class.

No. He asked why I didn't read every post in this thread because it was already covered. I replied that I didn't feel that was necessary in order to decide who currently is the 3rd best player in the NBA.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 08:51 PM
Because Chris Paul is more efficient overall (slightly but still) is worth more wins and wins per 48. He also makes others around him better and had an amazing series.

both have had Tyson chandler, who made better use of him?

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 08:56 PM
No problem with Wade here.. but Dirk over cp3? why?

that will be a very difficult choice for me. A healthy Paul is better, period. But Dirk has been rising about his normal level of play for quite some time in the playoffs, which is a determining factor for me. I have:

LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Durant
Dirk
Paul
Kobe

the rest

Swashcuff
09-06-2011, 08:56 PM
Dirk is definitely better than Amare, Melo and Durant... How can you not give him respect for winning in the title when he does not have an all-start teammate on his team? What can those 3 do that Dirk can't? And please don't tell me defense...

Don't even bother bro the lack of quality in that posts tells you all you need to know. He isn't going to be able to put together a solid argument to support his case.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 08:58 PM
Because Chris Paul is more efficient overall (slightly but still) is worth more wins and wins per 48. He also makes others around him better and had an amazing series.

I have zero problem with someone putting Paul #4-6. None. He is amazing. I just hope to god he can get traded to a team where he can still play meaningful games after round 1, and we can see the best PG in the last 17 years play. ****, if Paul had come into a team with talent, he may be entering best PG of all time at this point. Sad story

juno10
09-06-2011, 08:59 PM
both have had Tyson chandler, who made better use of him?

paul?

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 09:00 PM
paul?

larry obrien on whose hands?

Chronz
09-06-2011, 09:10 PM
on the contrary, people may be able to correct WRONG DOINGS on previous polls, and new people may vote too making it more perfect.
Inconsistent results are never more perfect. Just because you feel someone didnt get voted in the right place doesnt change the fact that the majority already disagreed. Get over it, the votes have been collected its time to finish the rankings.

naps
09-06-2011, 09:37 PM
larry obrien on whose hands?

How exactly did Dirk make Chandler better again? I can prove CP3 did. Can provide me some reasoning how Dirk made TC better than CP3 did. I don't wanna hear championship here, which is a team accomplishment. If anything TC staying healthy and playing Kidd helped him to be the contributor he was last season.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 09:40 PM
larry obrien on whose hands?
Now you're reaching. That has nothing to do with the fact CP3 clearly made Tyson Chandler better in NO than Dirk did in Dallas. Not really a discussion to me. I really can't stand it when people overrate players because of team success, especially in this case where Dirk is still the same player he was a few years ago even. This isn't even a knock on Dirk, for he's a huge reason the Mavs even have a title but that doesn't make him essentially a better basketball player than a LeBron, a Dwight, or a Dwyane Wade. People need to stop mixing the two.

juno10
09-06-2011, 09:46 PM
cp3 made chandler better, chandler made dirk better.

naps
09-06-2011, 09:50 PM
cp3 made chandler better, chandler made dirk better.

Couldn't have said it better. Chandler made up for Dirk's defensive lacking.

sargon21
09-06-2011, 09:53 PM
that will be a very difficult choice for me. A healthy Paul is better, period. But Dirk has been rising about his normal level of play for quite some time in the playoffs, which is a determining factor for me. I have:

LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Durant
Dirk
Paul
Kobe

the rest

I could argue Rose is better/ had a better last year than everyone except Wade and up, shouldn't he be on the poll?

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 09:54 PM
I could argue Rose is better/ had a better last year than everyone except Wade and up, shouldn't he be on the poll?

Show me another season or two of that Rose, and yep, he belongs in the top 6 poll

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 10:07 PM
LMFAO @ the poll. You add Bynum, but no Kobe? Not saying Kobe should go at three, but should be on the list.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 10:10 PM
agenda manipulation, its studied in university around the world.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 10:17 PM
LMFAO @ the poll. You add Bynum, but no Kobe? Not saying Kobe should go at three, but should be on the list.

:cheers:

Avenged
09-06-2011, 10:20 PM
LMFAO @ the poll. You add Bynum, but no Kobe? Not saying Kobe should go at three, but should be on the list.

Dude, where you been? Bynum has clearly surpassed Kobe and Pau. If this was last year, yeah you have a point. But now? Bynum definitely is worthy now of this poll.

Gators123
09-06-2011, 10:23 PM
LMFAO @ the poll. You add Bynum, but no Kobe? Not saying Kobe should go at three, but should be on the list.

lol

tredigs
09-06-2011, 10:24 PM
You guys DO realize that Kobe's not on the poll because he lost the right when us at PSD voted him BEHIND Wade in the positional rankings, right?

The dude was continuity between the two polls - hence, no Kobe - and Bynum in (because he was voted behind Dwight).

Go make your own poll, or stop *****ing. It's already old.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 10:25 PM
^I couldn't put it any more simple than this. Thank you tredigs.

Stop whining about the system and discuss who should earn this spot as #3 player in the league. Seriously.

bholly
09-06-2011, 10:26 PM
No. He asked why I didn't read every post in this thread because it was already covered. I replied that I didn't feel that was necessary in order to decide who currently is the 3rd best player in the NBA.

He didn't say anything about reading every post in the thread. You could read pretty much any post including the bolded red text in the OP to see what the system is that led to Bynum being included in the options, thus answering your initial question. That's all he was saying.

The explanation he was point you towards has nothing to do with who is currently the 3rd best player in the NBA - that's the point you're missing. Nobody at all is arguing that Bynum is a top 3 calibre player, and him being in this poll doesn't imply that. The discussion is purely about the system.

Your initial question, why Bynum is in the poll, has been and continues to be answered ad nauseam. If you don't actually want an answer, and were just asking to troll, then that's fine. If you do want an answer, try reading a post or two, even if it's just the part of the OP that's bolded specifically so that even those with the shortest attention spans, least attention to detail, and most challenged comprehension will read it before they complain.

bholly
09-06-2011, 10:32 PM
agenda manipulation, its studied in university around the world.

lol. The OP implemented a completely objective system, based on PSD posters' own rankings, that is robust to every season and removes any opportunity he might otherwise have had for influencing the polls in a way he likes by choosing the options himself. The system goes purely by ranking numbers, and ignores and subjective analysis of who the players are or whether they're worthy of the position or anything - hence Bynum being there now. The whole point is that it's consistent and not manipulable by the OP (or anyone). It's essentially automated.

You, on the other hand, are suggesting he chose the options based on some subjective criteria of who deserves to be in the poll, despite the PSD public already ranking the players you've suggested behind others in the poll (and in particular keep citing your fear of your countryman slipping).

And you think he needs a lesson in agenda manipulation?

RZZZA
09-06-2011, 10:35 PM
chris paul or wade

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 10:40 PM
lol. The OP implemented a completely objective system, based on PSD posters' own rankings, that is robust to every season and removes any opportunity he might otherwise have had for influencing the polls in a way he likes by choosing the options himself. The system goes purely by ranking numbers, and ignores and subjective analysis of who the players are or whether they're worthy of the position or anything - hence Bynum being there now. The whole point is that it's consistent and not manipulable by the OP (or anyone). It's essentially automated.

You, on the other hand, are suggesting he chose the options based on some subjective criteria of who deserves to be in the poll, despite the PSD public already ranking the players you've suggested behind others in the poll (and in particular keep citing your fear of your countryman slipping).

And you think he needs a lesson in agenda manipulation?

nope, but what im saying is the order in wich the candidacys are presented affects the final outcome off all the process.
im not sayint op is doing this for himself or for his benefit only that the system is flawed.

calakers
09-06-2011, 10:44 PM
I got to say durant its just amazing how good he is at his age but i guess people here just think veterans deserve more respect and its not really about whose the best. Not to be *** but i think if durant would of been in miami insted of lebron they wouldve won but then that just my opinion. I also couldnt believe he actually put bynum if he should of put a laker it should of been kobe which i think is total unrespectful to him and puttin bynum ahead of not only kobe but many players that should be on top

RZZZA
09-06-2011, 10:45 PM
Durant is over rated...he doesn't deserve to be this high on the list.

I'd put Durant after CP3, Wade, and Dirk

naps
09-06-2011, 10:45 PM
Even though this system is kinda flawed, I really don't see anything wrong with it. MHC is trying to be objective here. No one is gonna pick Bynum here. And I don't think Kobe, Rose, or Melo would be voted as #3 here as well unless the irrational homers jumped in.

5ass
09-06-2011, 10:46 PM
chris paul or wade

I went with wade, the guy is a 6'4 Lebron. Love cp3 though Definately 4th for me.

RZZZA
09-06-2011, 10:48 PM
It hasnt happened yet but I predict I will totally disagree with Rose's placement on the list. Ya'll gonna have him 9th or 10th I bet.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 10:48 PM
I got to say durant its just amazing how good he is at his age but i guess people here just think veterans deserve more respect and its not really about whose the best. Not to be *** but i think if durant would of been in miami insted of lebron they wouldve won but then that just my opinion. I also couldnt believe he actually put bynum if he should of put a laker it should of been kobe which i think is total unrespectful to him and puttin bynum ahead of not only kobe but many players that should be on top

LeBron is better than Durant? Why? Because he is also the most dominant defensive force on the floor everytime they play outside playing Orlando.

Now, as MHC and Chronz stated, Kobe can't enter the poll until Wade goes. It keeps integrity to the purpose of the poll. Bynum is here because Howard is gone.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 10:48 PM
It hasnt happened yet but I predict I will totally disagree with Rose's placement on the list. Ya'll gonna have him 9th or 10th I bet.

I have him 7-8

naps
09-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Durant is over rated...he doesn't deserve to be this high on the list.


Opinions like this without objectivity = :bla:

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 10:50 PM
btw i have already thought of a MUCH BETTER way to do this that is 100% acurate.

19 threads in 38 days and an UNCOESTIONABLE final order.

Avenged
09-06-2011, 10:51 PM
Kobe will be available next time! But Bynum definitely deserves to go ahead of him.

bholly
09-06-2011, 10:52 PM
nope, but what im saying is the order in wich the candidacys are presented affects the final outcome off all the process.
im not sayint op is doing this for himself or for his benefit only that the system is flawed.

Oh, okay, so maybe the fairest way would be for us to all vote for the order the guys get added in? Oh, wait, we already spent 50 or so threads doing that.

The only flaw you see is that Pau and Kobe can't get voted in yet.

Pau was voted the 3rd best PF, so he can't be ranked ahead of Dirk and Amare on the main rankings. Therefore, there's no reason to have him in there until they're ranked. Deal with it.

RZZZA
09-06-2011, 10:53 PM
Opinions like this without objectivity = :bla:

I can make an objective argument, but would you listen?

Durant doesn't do anything better than Dirk so he should not appear on this list before him. Wade is just flat out better in like every way. So is CP3.

bholly
09-06-2011, 10:53 PM
btw i have already thought of a MUCH BETTER way to do this that is 100% acurate.

19 threads in 38 days and an UNCOESTIONABLE final order.

Enlighten us.

(Although the fact that you think any ranking can be 100% accurate and unquestionable doesn't bode well for your idea.)

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 10:57 PM
You guys DO realize that Kobe's not on the poll because he lost the right when us at PSD voted him BEHIND Wade in the positional rankings, right?

The dude was continuity between the two polls - hence, no Kobe - and Bynum in (because he was voted behind Dwight).

Go make your own poll, or stop *****ing. It's already old.

LOL I really could care less. I take these polls with a grain a salt because at the end of the day we are just a bunch of nobodies ranking players and after its all done with we forget all about it and move on.

So just because Bynum was voted behind D12 in the top 10 centers gives him the right to be nominated for top 3 in the nba? Yeah that makes sense. Tim Duncan should be nominated very soon since he was voted 3rd in the top centers in the NBA.

Its funny how one postseason can change everything. When Lebron lost to the Celtics and when Kobe won the 2010 championship, the rankings were #1 Kobe and #2 Lebron in overall. Now Dirk wins and all of a sudden he is top 3 and Kobe is not "even" being considered for top 5 because he lost in the semifinals.

Its a cycle and I understand how it works. If Chicago wins next year, Rose definitely will be top 3 in voting and Dirk will fall out of top 5. Book it. Thats how PSD works.

calakers
09-06-2011, 10:59 PM
LeBron is better than Durant? Why? Because he is also the most dominant defensive force on the floor everytime they play outside playing Orlando.

Now, as MHC and Chronz stated, Kobe can't enter the poll until Wade goes. It keeps integrity to the purpose of the poll. Bynum is here because Howard is gone.

no doubt lebron is better overall player but kd would of been a better fit miami since wade and lebron first instinct is attack it would be better if they had a outside shooter and a person like wade to attack

naps
09-06-2011, 10:59 PM
I can make an objective argument, but would you listen?

Durant doesn't do anything better than Dirk so he should not appear on this list before him. Wade is just flat out better in like every way. So is CP3.

I agree with that bolded part. I thought you meant Durant shouldn't be in this poll (list). Durant being in the poll doesn't mean he's going to be placed ahead of Wade, CP3, or Dirk.

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 11:00 PM
Dude, where you been? Bynum has clearly surpassed Kobe and Pau. If this was last year, yeah you have a point. But now? Bynum definitely is worthy now of this poll.

Try emailing espn or any other sports site and tell them this and they will laugh in your face. Bynum? Really? The guy who cannot even stay healthy? Any little bruise and he misses 5 games, while Kobe who plays with numerous injuries grinds it out even if it hurts his stats.

Avenged
09-06-2011, 11:00 PM
Ouch.. The fact that Amare will most likely have a chance at top 6-10 and Pau won't bugs me..

Avenged
09-06-2011, 11:02 PM
Try emailing espn or any other sports site and tell them this and they will laugh in your face. Bynum? Really? The guy who cannot even stay healthy? Any little bruise and he misses 5 games, while Kobe who plays with numerous injuries grinds it out even if it hurts his stats.

I was joking :(

I thought we were friends.

Strumpy
09-06-2011, 11:03 PM
MHC, I've been following your polls for the last few years and I think you're doing the right thing here. I believe it was just last year that we voted D-Will the number one point guard and then Chris Paul went ahead of him in the overall poll. How does that make any sense? Thanks for fixing it.

TheRunKiller
09-06-2011, 11:04 PM
I went with Andrew Bynum here

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 11:05 PM
^I couldn't put it any more simple than this. Thank you tredigs.

Stop whining about the system and discuss who should earn this spot as #3 player in the league. Seriously.

LOL what system? And who is whining? You think I honestly care if Kobe goes at #1 or #100? At the end of the day its just an opinion, and I take it with a grain of salt. I just had to laugh and comment that they would actually put Bynum on the list for #3 in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 11:06 PM
no doubt lebron is better overall player but kd would of been a better fit miami since wade and lebron first instinct is attack it would be better if they had a outside shooter and a person like wade to attack

There is no denying that LeBron and Wade have skill overlaps which will limit the Heat to an extent offensively. Durant would have helped the Heat offensively as much or more than LeBron, I agree. But LeBron on the defensive end is exponentially better than Durant, so the Heat are still much better off with LeBron.

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 11:06 PM
I went with Andrew Bynum here

Yeah, me too. I would of wished all the votes other than Wade would of gone to Bynum and he would of won.

Andrew Bynum #3 overall player in the NBA according to PSD:clap:

bholly
09-06-2011, 11:08 PM
So just because Bynum was voted behind D12 in the top 10 centers gives him the right to be nominated for top 3 in the nba? Yeah that makes sense. Tim Duncan should be nominated very soon since he was voted 3rd in the top centers in the NBA.

this is the key word. bynum's been nominated. nobody thinks he has even a slight chance of getting picked soon, and nobody is arguing he should. but excluding the #2 center just because we know he won't get picked would be even more unfair than including him. what happens in the years where the top two players in the nba are both centers?
you can't just change the electoral system to suit the candidates - you can't include or exclude the #2 center based on your view of him, because that leaves the system open for manipulation. the fact that he's nominated way before he'll get picked counts for nothing, and everyone knows it, and the overall rankings won't be affected by it, so who cares?

and, by the way, kobe still is in the running for being in the top 5. he'll be on the next poll for #4, assuming wade holds out in this poll.
the SG polls established that, according to the PSD community, wade > kobe. the #1 overall and #2 overall polls established that, according to the PSD community, LBJ > dwight and dwight > wade. So, logically, kobe can be at best #4, and he still has the chance to be. what's the problem?

if you think he's maybe higher than #4 then that's fine, but the PSD community disagree so he's been ruled out. that's all the system does.

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 11:08 PM
I was joking :(

I thought we were friends.

Oh damn. Well, when I first read your post, I took it as it was a sarcastic remark, but then when I read it a few more times I thought you were serious and then I was like WTF! I was about to post, "what has this lockout done to us!"

Of course we are still friends :)

SteBO
09-06-2011, 11:11 PM
I would have no issues if Chris Paul won this at all, since he's a stud PG. I agree with Hawkeye when he says that if you put him on a team with more competent players, and another star wing player, we could be arguing where his place is in the greatest PG's of all time. I hope he can get some help at some point. Unfortunately, NO doesn't look like they'll be getting him help.

still1ballin
09-06-2011, 11:12 PM
this is the key word. bynum's been nominated. nobody thinks he has even a slight chance of getting picked soon, and nobody is arguing he should. but excluding the #2 center just because we know he won't get picked would be even more unfair than including him. what happens in the years where the top two players in the nba are both centers?
you can't just change the electoral system to suit the candidates - you can't include or exclude the #2 center based on your view of him, because leaves the system open for manipulation. the fact that he's nominated way before he'll get picked counts for nothing, and everyone knows it, and the overall rankings won't be affected by it, so who cares?

and, by the way, kobe still is in the running for being in the top 5. he'll be on the next poll for #4, assuming wade holds out in this poll.
the SG polls established that, according to the PSD community, wade > kobe. the #1 overall and #2 overall polls established that, according to the PSD community, LBJ > dwight and dwight > wade. So, logically, kobe can be at best #4, and he still has the chance to be. what's the problem?

if you think he's maybe higher than #4 then that's fine, but the PSD community disagree so he's been ruled out. that's all the system does.

I just see it as an insult to the other elite players in the NBA. Really this league isn't dominated by centers like it was before. There aren't any big names out there. Bynum was voted #2 because honestly there wasn't really anyone else, but he doesn't play like he is the 2nd best center in the NBA.

I can relate this poll to fantasy football. Michael Vick is the #1 fantasy QB, but does that mean he is top 5? No, because there was other better fantasy options in other positions better.

So just because he was voted #2 doesn't mean he should be nominated. There are much better options.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 11:14 PM
Enlighten us.

(Although the fact that you think any ranking can be 100% accurate and unquestionable doesn't bode well for your idea.)

nope.

what i say it that it would unquestionably show 100% whats the real PERCEPTION on the top 10 by psd wihouth agenda manipulation issues..

Avenged
09-06-2011, 11:14 PM
Yeah, me too. I would of wished all the votes other than Wade would of gone to Bynum and he would of won.

Andrew Bynum #3 overall player in the NBA according to PSD:clap:

lmfao! lets do it :p

sixer04fan
09-06-2011, 11:15 PM
Again, this is a flawed system. It's going to force Kobe fans to vote for Wade just to get Kobe on the next poll. Rose fans will be forced to vote for CP3 just to get Rose on the next poll. And so on and so forth. It won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players. Not at all. And best at your position doesn't necessarily mean best player overall. For example, in my opinion, CP3 might be a better point guard than Rose, according to my definition of what a point guard should be, but Rose is a greater player overall. But we are not allowed to vote for Rose until CP3 is off the board? Makes no sense.

You should have just done a straight up list of the best players, regardless of what the results were in your position polls. Not trying to hate here, I'm just saying the reasoning behind this system is over-thought, overly-complicated, and lacks common sense. Don't get me wrong, I like the position polls, but this is comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.

tredigs
09-06-2011, 11:17 PM
I'm going Cp3 the Savant>Wade>Dirk/Durant in a very, very close 3/4/5/6.

You won't see a strong argument from me for any one of these guys over another. If anybody else steps on their toes in a close vote, then I'll have to join in and throw in my 2.



nope.

what i say it that it would unquestionably show 100% whats the real PERCEPTION on the top 10 by psd wihouth agenda manipulation issues..

I love people like you (see: Assandhu), who always believe there is some greater ulterior motives at work, and that you are somehow always the one on the outside looking in thinking you're being wronged. Well, "feel sorry for", "can't stand", "love". Tomato tahmato ; ]

@ Sixer04Fan up there. It will force SOME of those homer fans to vote for them, yes. But these are guys that would be voting for their favorite player before they are due if they were on the poll for #1, as well. With immature kids on the internet, the results are bound to be skewed in one way or another, but this just ensures that they WILL NOT be voted ahead of the people who they were already voted behind. That's the best system in my opinion. They can try to manipulate this poll, but in doing so they admit that they've already lost - and I'd feel comfortable that the majority of people will be objective in their vote and outweigh the homers (who will in turn somewhat weigh eachother out depending on who they're trying to vote in). Comprende'?

TheRunKiller
09-06-2011, 11:19 PM
Yeah, me too. I would of wished all the votes other than Wade would of gone to Bynum and he would of won.

Andrew Bynum #3 overall player in the NBA according to PSD:clap:

Um, sorry but I said that because i thought it was a joke that Bynum was on the list. I went with Wade. :hide:

bholly
09-06-2011, 11:21 PM
I just see it as an insult to the other elite players in the NBA. Really this league isn't dominated by centers like it was before. There aren't any big names out there. Bynum was voted #2 because honestly there wasn't really anyone else, but he doesn't play like he is the 2nd best center in the NBA.

I can relate this poll to fantasy football. Michael Vick is the #1 fantasy QB, but does that mean he is top 5? No, because there was other better fantasy options in other positions better.

So just because he was voted #2 doesn't mean he should be nominated. There are much better options.

i agree that bynum was the #2 center because there wasn't really anyone else - so he'll keep not getting picked and will slip down to where he would end up going anyway if we included everyone in the poll like people are suggesting...and then the other worse centers will be added to the board and will go after that, just like it should be. the overall rankings will end up being the same, so who cares about the nominations? it isn't an insult to the elite players if we all understand why it is the way it is, and understand that the elite players will still all end up ranked above the non-elites, even if they're nominated after.

we could've just never done the positional polls, and instead listed every single nba player and had hundreds of threads doing a big overall ranking, and then picked out the top 10 at each position based on that ordering...but we would've gotten the exact same results. here we're just doing it in the other order - ordering them within their positions first, and then using these polls to combine those orderings into an overall ranking. it doesn't matter what way we do it - positions first then overall, or overall then positions - the overall rankings will be the same.

calakers
09-06-2011, 11:25 PM
There is no denying that LeBron and Wade have skill overlaps which will limit the Heat to an extent offensively. Durant would have helped the Heat offensively as much or more than LeBron, I agree. But LeBron on the defensive end is exponentially better than Durant, so the Heat are still much better off with LeBron.

:clap: got a point didnt really look at it in that way i guess what the heat need really is for lebron and wade to improve their games a little more so they can make it over the bump and be champs

bholly
09-06-2011, 11:28 PM
nope.

what i say it that it would unquestionably show 100% whats the real PERCEPTION on the top 10 by psd wihouth agenda manipulation issues..

so explain your system then.


Again, this is a flawed system. It's going to force Kobe fans to vote for Wade just to get Kobe on the next poll. Rose fans will be forced to vote for CP3 just to get Rose on the next poll. And so on and so forth. It won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players. Not at all. And best at your position doesn't necessarily mean best player overall. For example, in my opinion, CP3 might be a better point guard than Rose, according to my definition of what a point guard should be, but Rose is a greater player overall. But we are not allowed to vote for Rose until CP3 is off the board? Makes no sense.

but if you do it the other way, the same kobe fans will just always vote kobe to get him to the top...it won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players.
the homerism ruins things both ways - i don't believe it ruins this system any more than it ruins the other system.
in fact, i think the other system is more susceptible to it. say you have a given number of homers who are going to vote in one players' favour no matter what. if you have heaps of options, the non-homer voters will be more split, so the homer votes for one guy are more likely to win. if you have less options, like here, with only the options deemed 'rational' being given, then the non-homer votes will be much less spread out, and the number of homer votes will be a much lower proportion of any given candidate's numbers.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 11:39 PM
so explain your system then.



but if you do it the other way, the same kobe fans will just always vote kobe to get him to the top...it won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players.
the homerism ruins things both ways - i don't believe it ruins this system any more than it ruins the other system.
in fact, i think the other system is more susceptible to it. say you have a given number of homers who are going to vote in one players' favour no matter what. if you have heaps of options, the non-homer voters will be more split, so the homer votes for one guy are more likely to win. if you have less options, like here, with only the options deemed 'rational' being given, then the non-homer votes will be much less spread out, and the number of homer votes will be a much lower proportion of any given candidate's numbers.
we should agree if we take the 4 highest ranked players at each position in the previous votings ( total of 20) the top 10 players MUST be among those 20 , right?

ok thread 1.
10 head to head matchups between those 20 players.

lebron vs wade
stoud vs cp3
dirk vs kobe
and so on

people has to BOLD the player who they think is better in the match ups ( note the player that is BETTER, not the one that woudl win a one on one game)

we give 48 hours for people to make their picks and bold it.

when the 48 limit reaches we count how many times each player has been bolded in their match up

say lebron 10 people bolded him wade 8 people bolded him

lebron gets 1 w 0 loses wade geets 0 wins 1 lose.

day two we make 10 different match ups

deay three 10 different match ups.

this up for 19 threads
this way every player has faced every other player

add up the wins and loses ( if two players are tied in w their head to head match up decides, if three or more players are tied you count the results amoung them) and you have a perfect ranking of what psd thinks

and the top 10


to evaluate the next 10 players you will need to repeat the process using the 10 dudes with less wins in the first "league" and add the next 10 dudes from positional votations ( 2 per position)

bholly
09-06-2011, 11:49 PM
we should agree if we take the 4 highest ranked players at each position in the previous votings ( total of 20) the top 10 players MUST be among those 20 , right?

I disagree with this bit. It's likely they would be, but not necessary. For examble, in JB's goat thread going on, there are 5 centers in the top 10 (6 if you count Timmy). Who's to say that sort of skew couldn't happen in any given year? So you'd need a better way of drafting the players than that.

I actually like the idea of a round robin sort of thing, though, so if you really want to you should talk to the mods and set it up one day (not while this one is still going). I don't think it would be any more legitimate than the current system, though, but some people might like it.

Also, a better way of doing it than bolding would be to put a multi-choice poll. Option 1 is 'LBJ beats Wade', Option 2 is 'Wade beats LBJ', Option 3 is 'Durant beats Howard', Option 4 is 'Howard beats Durant', etc etc. It'd be clear enough that you should only vote for one of each pair. Then the person running it doesn't have to do any counting, and no votes are ambiguous, etc.

rickshaw
09-07-2011, 12:01 AM
and here we have it, the reason why this system does not work at all and leades to unrealistic results.

but someone being ranked higher in the NBA ranking than in his positional one is realistic?

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 12:31 AM
:clap: got a point didnt really look at it in that way i guess what the heat need really is for lebron and wade to improve their games a little more so they can make it over the bump and be champs

The Heat really need both to adapt their games to conflicting skillsets, and to get the role player equation right. Bosh is about as good as you get for a 3rd option, but they literally had nothing else with Haslem and Miller being hurt so long, and need a player or two that can come up huge like Jason Terry does from time to time if the offense is stagnant.

ManningToTyree
09-07-2011, 12:44 AM
The fact that Bynum has gotten votes shows that this system is flawed. Anyway, Wade here

ewmania
09-07-2011, 12:50 AM
dirk... dirk put his team on his back, wade didnt even with bosh and lebron in his corner

da ThRONe
09-07-2011, 12:52 AM
For everybody that's complaining about the format. What if he put 100 players up there? How would that stop people from voting for Bynum. Especially if their just trying to sabotage the system?

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:54 AM
This should really be closer.. Wade isn't clear cut better than Chris Paul to be leading this by that margin.

ewmania
09-07-2011, 12:54 AM
yeah this system is pretty flawed

that means guys like rose, melo , durant will end up like in 15 or higher because its not they turn and bynum would be like number 8 or 9

bholly
09-07-2011, 01:00 AM
yeah this system is pretty flawed

that means guys like rose, melo , durant will end up like in 15 or higher because its not they turn and bynum would be like number 8 or 9

no it doesn't. those guys will go ahead of bynum.

tredigs
09-07-2011, 01:08 AM
This should really be closer.. Wade isn't clear cut better than Chris Paul to be leading this by that margin.
I feel ya, but even if people think Wade's only JUST THE SLIGHTEST bit better than Paul, then he still gets the vote and what appears as a blowout on paper is in fact still a tight race.

That said, I went Paul too. But I cannot argue him over Wade. If that makes sense... they're just all too close 2-6.


yeah this system is pretty flawed

that means guys like rose, melo , durant will end up like in 15 or higher because its not they turn and bynum would be like number 8 or 9

Is there an emoticon for curb-stomping? That's an emoticon I would endorse. Just sayin'... modss?

Bholly - keep fighting the good fight ; ]

da ThRONe
09-07-2011, 01:32 AM
yeah this system is pretty flawed

that means guys like rose, melo , durant will end up like in 15 or higher because its not they turn and bynum would be like number 8 or 9

When Melo becomes available who are you voting for Melo or Bynum? How about when Rose because available Rose or Bynum and so on and so forth.

marj987
09-07-2011, 01:57 AM
To tell you the truth, I actually think it's Wade, and yes, Im bringing up the finals in this again cause, that's when you really must "Show Up" and LeBron didn't which makes him lose my votes towards number one.....And I really don't see how he's numer one, Howard is number on IMO. The dude is going to be a MAJOR threat now that he has his offense to back him up.

naps
09-07-2011, 02:02 AM
This should really be closer.. Wade isn't clear cut better than Chris Paul to be leading this by that margin.

So Dwight Howard was clear cut THAT better (if any) than Wade in that #2 thread?

Avenged
09-07-2011, 02:15 AM
^ nope.

The_Jamal
09-07-2011, 02:54 AM
Dear lordy, how do people not understand this system? MHC set it up perfectly so the vote remains as unbiased as possible. It doesn't ****ing matter thaat Bynum's up there, he's not going to win anytime soon. What it does ensure that the best player's at their respective positions get voted in before someone lower on the PSD list. How does it make any sense at all that Wade won the best SG poll, but Kobe gets voted in before him? While the original top 10 lists might be flawed, at least it'll be a consistent PSD general consensus.

The_Jamal
09-07-2011, 02:55 AM
And i voted for that Big Sexy German. Dude was just way to much of a monster to keep him out of #3.

Jewelz0376
09-07-2011, 03:02 AM
I went with Wade here...looks like psd's top 3 will match my own (assuming that Wade wins this)

I still haven't quite decided who I will vote at #4...

Baller1
09-07-2011, 03:34 AM
Wade should've been number two, so I have him here.

Then Durant, then CP3 and Dirk.

SportsFanatic10
09-07-2011, 03:37 AM
definately wade here imo.

naps
09-07-2011, 03:50 AM
Wade should've been number two, so I have him here.

Then Durant, then CP3 and Dirk.

Thank you!
PSD is a place where everything is possible.

bholly
09-07-2011, 03:54 AM
Bholly - keep fighting the good fight ; ]

haha, I actually think I'm about done now. There'll be no end to the people who don't understand and aren't willing to read, so I have to just stop myself at some point. I don't even care for player rankings anyway, haha.

TheWatcher34
09-07-2011, 04:04 AM
PSD votes for D-Wade for one reason: his game is more spectacular. but Dirk is the better BASKETBALL PLAYER.

ragee
09-07-2011, 05:16 AM
Don't even bother bro the lack of quality in that posts tells you all you need to know. He isn't going to be able to put together a solid argument to support his case.

Obviously, I am a big fan of Dirk. I just find it really annoying when people disregard Dirk when talking about the top players in the league because of his defense then put the likes of Durant, Melo and Amare in the same conversation... All of them are not good defenders... Among the four, Dirk is the most efficient and arguably the most ungruardable scorer...

ragee
09-07-2011, 05:20 AM
I would have no issues if Chris Paul won this at all, since he's a stud PG. I agree with Hawkeye when he says that if you put him on a team with more competent players, and another star wing player, we could be arguing where his place is in the greatest PG's of all time. I hope he can get some help at some point. Unfortunately, NO doesn't look like they'll be getting him help.

Same goes with Dwight... That is the reason why I have issues on Lebron winning the top spot! :D

JasonJohnHorn
09-07-2011, 05:51 AM
I'm not even voting on this one. Bynum isn't even the best player on his team! He's not even the third best player on his team.

Is this a joke? Putting Bynum up before Kobe and Gasol? And Odom for that matter?

alencp3
09-07-2011, 07:49 AM
all healthy 100%, give me cp3 10 times out of 10

Heediot
09-07-2011, 07:50 AM
CP3.... I consider last season an off year.

Heediot
09-07-2011, 07:50 AM
all healthy 100%, give me cp3 10 times out of 10

$$$$

Knicks21
09-07-2011, 07:54 AM
wtf andrew bynum?

ShakeN'Bake
09-07-2011, 07:57 AM
Did I see Andrew Bynum on the poll or are my eyes lying to me?

Yup, Seems a little ridiculous at first. but if you read the bottom of his post he says he is replacing players who get voted in with the next top guy from their position.

With that said Bynum should not even be any where near this poll the OP is wasting a spot for a player who could actually make it.

SteBO
09-07-2011, 08:15 AM
PSD votes for D-Wade for one reason: his game is more spectacular. but Dirk is the better BASKETBALL PLAYER.
Based on what?

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 08:45 AM
PSD votes for D-Wade for one reason: his game is more spectacular. but Dirk is the better BASKETBALL PLAYER.

In case you haven't realized CP3 is also ahead of Dirk and Durant is tied. So by your reasoning all their games are also more spectacular. Don't you think you should make a case for Dirk?

Wade is the best all round SG in the league and one of if not the most fundamentally sound wing in the league, I can't understand in the slightest how someone will say Dirk is a better basketball player. If we're talking about Melo then yeah but Wade?

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 10:21 AM
JB how can Rose be an option when the guy voted ahead of him is still on the board?

Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.

It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.

juno10
09-07-2011, 10:26 AM
Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.

It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.

100% sure chris paul is considered the better pg and player so it would probably wouldn't make much of difference.

millerandco
09-07-2011, 10:27 AM
take Bynum off the least he isn't even top20 in the league

millerandco
09-07-2011, 10:28 AM
the 5 people that voted for Bynum should stop watching basketball....they clearly know nothing

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 10:40 AM
100% sure chris paul is considered the better pg and player so it would probably wouldn't make much of difference.

Not last year he wasn't. If it were 2008 or 2009 last year then yes.

RaJAxTWa
09-07-2011, 10:57 AM
why the hell is bynum up there and where is kobe hes top 7 at least

mavwar53
09-07-2011, 11:04 AM
Is that really Andrew Bynum's name I see up there, I almost **** myself laughing when I saw that

sunsfan23
09-07-2011, 11:43 AM
I'd have to say it's a tie between Wade and Durant. Durant's a better shooter, Wade's a better slasher. Neither are dominant defensively.

SteBO
09-07-2011, 11:49 AM
I'd have to say it's a tie between Wade and Durant. Durant's a better shooter, Wade's a better slasher. Neither are dominant defensively.
Wade can definitely be dominant defensively as opposed to Durant. I think Durant can become a pretty good defender just because of his length alone, but he's far from that now though.

1-800-STFU
09-07-2011, 11:50 AM
The answer here is clearly Andrew Bynum.

The rest of you are just haters.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 11:50 AM
CP3.... I consider last season an off year.



all healthy 100%, give me cp3 10 times out of 10

This is what I mean. People are using if healthy and how good he was in the past. This thread should be based on last year only. We had this same format in 2009 and 2010, why should those years get included for 2011? This is precisely the reason why Chris Paul beat out Rose because most used the if healthy reason or how good he was in 2008 or 2009 which isn't fair if we are talking about last season.

Avenged
09-07-2011, 11:52 AM
I'd have to say it's a tie between Wade and Durant. Durant's a better shooter, Wade's a better slasher. Neither are dominant defensively.

But Wade is a better defender and is a 1st team All Defense despite the voters. Wade and Durant have a similar TS% (Durant - 589) (Wade - 581) with Wade having a higher eFG% and FG%.

These guys are both pretty similar but Wade is a better overall player and is actually a dominant defender for SG's.

Sadds The Gr8
09-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.

It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.

lol name ONE aspect in basketball that Rose is better than Paul at other than scoring.

Avenged
09-07-2011, 11:55 AM
This is what I mean. People are using if healthy and how good he was in the past. This thread should be based on last year only. We had this same format in 2009 and 2010, why should those years get included for 2011? This is precisely the reason why Chris Paul beat out Rose because most used the if healthy reason or how good he was in 2008 or 2009 which isn't fair if we are talking about last season.

Chris Paul was still better than Rose last season healthy or not..

LakeShowRaider
09-07-2011, 11:55 AM
HA! Kobe Bryant not in the top 3? Get the F outta here. I don't care what the stats say KB is top 3 for however long he is in the league. And that's at the least.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:00 PM
Chris Paul was still better than Rose last season healthy or not..

Disagree. CP3 didn't even led his team in scoring on the season and was 13th in MVP voting. Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot.
Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.


Look at the disparity between these two polls.

#1 PG In The NBA? (Volume IV) - Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626426&highlight=%231+PG+In+The+NBA%3F+%28Volume+IV%29)


And then here how is there such a disparity?

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598498

tcav701
09-07-2011, 12:03 PM
Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.

It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.

The problem is if Rose was up there, you and the Rose Fan Boy Mafia would vote for him which is asinine at this point. Same could be said for Kobe and Melo.

It makes NO sense to take months doing position polls and then not use it as the foundation for the overall poll.

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Disagree. CP3 didn't even led his team in scoring on the season and was 13th in MVP voting. Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot.
Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.


Look at the disparity between these two polls.

#1 PG In The NBA? (Volume IV) - Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626426&highlight=%231+PG+In+The+NBA%3F+%28Volume+IV%29)


And then here how is there such a disparity?

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598498

Those are PSD polls JB. You honestly take them serious enough to let it affect your judgement? One poll was created in March, the next in June. Many things change in basketball overnight let alone 3 months.

MVP voting has nothing to do with who's better. Give CP3 Rose's team and he'll be right up there with the best of them. Give Rose CP3's team and he'll be right up there with CP3 in terms of MVP votes. Heck, replace Rose with Deron Williams and he ends up top 5 in MVP votes.

SteBO
09-07-2011, 12:08 PM
Disagree. CP3 didn't even led his team in scoring on the season and was 13th in MVP voting. Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot.
Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.


Look at the disparity between these two polls.

#1 PG In The NBA? (Volume IV) - Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626426&highlight=%231+PG+In+The+NBA%3F+%28Volume+IV%29)


And then here how is there such a disparity?

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598498
Yeah because polls are indicative of the truth. :rolleyes: I remember that thread, and it was full of homerism and irrationality and therefore you can't rely on that for the truth. It's things like this which is why MHC is really doing the poll the way he's currently doing it, because you and Rose homers are just going to vote him and completely ruin the value and credibility of these threads, since reality is CP3 won the position poll. If Rose can't win that, then he's below CP3 here. Common sense.


Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot

JB, you're contradicting yourself here. You imply that MVP voting doesn't determine who's better, which is correct but then you go on that it shows alot in regards to the quality of the player. Which side are you on?


Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.
Gotta love hypotheticals. So indicative of reality.

Ebbs
09-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Bynum votes serious>?

Ebbs
09-07-2011, 12:12 PM
HA! Kobe Bryant not in the top 3? Get the F outta here. I don't care what the stats say KB is top 3 for however long he is in the league. And that's at the least.

If you even tried to back that up in any way whatsoever I would have loved to bring the hammer down. But we both know the only reason you believe that is that you're a laker fan.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Those are PSD polls JB. You honestly take them serious enough to let it affect your judgement? One poll was created in March, the next in June. Many things change in basketball overnight let alone 3 months.

MVP voting has nothing to do with who's better. Give CP3 Rose's team and he'll be right up there with the best of them. Give Rose CP3's team and he'll be right up there with CP3 in terms of MVP votes. Heck, replace Rose with Deron Williams and he ends up top 5 in MVP votes.

MVP voting means a lot. A true star can still finish in the top 5 in MVP voting no matter how bad his team is. Again I'm not saying if you are #1 in MVP voting you are the best that year, I'm saying you should be somewhere in the conversation with the elite players in the league that season as far as MVP voting. When you finish 13th it gives an indication of how good you really are. Even as an 8th seed in 2010 Durant still finished 2nd in MVP voting. Now imagine had he finished 10th that year in MVP voting, you would say his impact as an individual was not that great.
On your other point, CP3 with another star on his team never won as many games as Rose did even though Rose didn't have another star on his team. And let's not use the East vs West because we had the best record vs the other conference that the West had against the East than any other team.
23-7 against the west which was a 76.6% and 39-13 against the east which was a 75.0%.

Sadds The Gr8
09-07-2011, 12:16 PM
Bynum votes serious>?

mad laker fans voting for Bynum because Kobe isn't on the list.

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 12:16 PM
This is what I mean. People are using if healthy and how good he was in the past. This thread should be based on last year only. We had this same format in 2009 and 2010, why should those years get included for 2011? This is precisely the reason why Chris Paul beat out Rose because most used the if healthy reason or how good he was in 2008 or 2009 which isn't fair if we are talking about last season.

JB don't you find this ironic?

Every single time you debate Rose and Paul you compare Rose's season last to Paul's from 07-09 and say Rose is better regardless because of his team's success. Isn't that based on year's prior?

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:20 PM
MVP voting means a lot. A true star can still finish in the top 5 in MVP voting no matter how bad his team is. Again I'm not saying if you are #1 in MVP voting you are the best that year, I'm saying you should be somewhere in the conversation with the elite players in the league that season as far as MVP voting. When you finish 13th it gives an indication of how good you really are. Even as an 8th seed in 2010 Durant still finished 2nd in MVP voting. Now imagine had he finished 10th that year in MVP voting, you would say his impact as an individual was not that great.
On your other point, CP3 with another star on his team never won as many games as Rose did even though Rose didn't have another star on his team. And let's not use the East vs West because we had the best record vs the other conference that the West had against the East than any other team.
23-7 against the west which was a 76.6% and 39-13 against the east which was a 75.0%.

You're putting too much weight on MVP votes. Look at the MVP votes and honestly tell me if you think it's accurate. Manu, Rondo, Parker, and Blake Griffin all ended up ahead of Chris Paul. What does that tell you? That they're better? Those 4 guys aren't even top 10 players.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Yeah because polls are indicative of the truth. :rolleyes: I remember that thread, and it was full of homerism and irrationality and therefore you can't rely on that for the truth. It's things like this which is why MHC is really doing the poll the way he's currently doing it, because you and Rose homers are just going to vote him and completely ruin the value and credibility of these threads, since reality is CP3 won the position poll. If Rose can't win that, then he's below Rose here. Common sense.


Not the same unless a player truly plays that position. If you compare Billups and Iverson as PG, many would say Billups is the better PG because he runs an offense better. However Iverson no doubt is the better player and he plays a combo position.




JB, you're contradicting yourself here. You imply that MVP voting doesn't determine who's better, which is correct but then you go on that it shows alot in regards to the quality of the player. Which side are you on?


No I'm not, I'm saying if you are truly elite you will finish high in MVP voting no matter what, and that just cuz you won doesn't mean you were better. Rose finished 1st and Lebron 3rd, but because Rose finished higher than Lebron in the voting doesn't mean he was better because Lebron was still in the elite class of the league as top notch in the voting process. Basically I'm saying you can't reallly justify a guy who finished outside the top 10 in MVP voting to be better when he played pretty much the entire year to someone who was a regular MVP candidate.
In 2009 there is no way for me to justify that Dirk was better than Dwight when Dwight went further and also finished much higher in MVP voting with one finishing 4th and the other 10th.

29$JerZ
09-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Of the list provided its Dwayne Wade. Can I ask why in the world Bynum is even an option?

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Disagree. CP3 didn't even led his team in scoring on the season and was 13th in MVP voting. Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot.
Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.


Look at the disparity between these two polls.

#1 PG In The NBA? (Volume IV) - Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626426&highlight=%231+PG+In+The+NBA%3F+%28Volume+IV%29)


And then here how is there such a disparity?

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598498

I could guarantee you that had Derrick Rose been under the tutelage of Monty Williams last season he would have averaged much less ppg last season. Don't say that as if CP3 wasn't capable of doing it. Had CP3 been given the ok to run the team like he did under Scott his raw #s would have been much better. Leading the team in scoring night in night out was not what he was asked to do but his head coach. And he listened.

Had CP3 played for the Bulls they would UNDOUBTEDLY have been the #1 seed. CP3 generated more offense for his team than any other player in the league not named LeBron James. It's ignorant to defiantly say that the Bulls would not have been as good.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I could guarantee you that had Derrick Rose been under the tutelage of Monty Williams last season he would have averaged much less ppg last season. Don't say that as if CP3 wasn't capable of doing it. Had CP3 been given the ok to run the team like he did under Scott his raw #s would have been much better. Leading the team in scoring night in night out was not what he was asked to do but his head coach. And he listened.

Had CP3 played for the Bulls they would UNDOUBTEDLY have been the #1 seed. CP3 generated more offense for his team than any other player in the league not named LeBron James. It's ignorant to defiantly say that the Bulls would not have been as good.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team that year. In the playoffs the guy took 9 freaking shots one game. You do stuff like that when you have a bunch of offensive weapons not when you barely have anyone who can score.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:27 PM
Here let's use these 2 threads here for the PG stuff

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19117524#post19117524


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645801



Here as I have mentioned before I'm taking Dirk,

Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs become first team in NBA history

To defeat three teams that each had a

ALL-NBA 1st team player and ALL-NBA 2nd team player:

Kobe and Gasol
Durant and Westbrook
LeBron and Wade


So yeah Dirk was clearly the best last year.


Mavs were 2-7 without him. Was the only allstar on his team. Beat the 2x defending champions who had a higher SRS rating, better offensive and defense and beat a team that had 3 allstars with two of which are considered routinely top 3 in the league and did so without HCA.




Dallas

57-25,
Coach: Rick Carlisle (57-25)

PTS/G: 100.2 (11th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 96.0 (10th of 30)
SRS: 4.41 (8th of 30) ? Pace: 91.3 (18th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.7 (8th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 105.0 (8th of 30)
Expected W-L: 53-29 (8th of 30)



Miami

58-24, 1st in NBA Southeast Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Erik Spoelstra (58-24)

PTS/G: 102.1 (8th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 94.6 (6th of 30)
SRS: 6.76 (1st of 30) ? Pace: 90.9 (20th of 30)
Off Rtg: 111.7 (3rd of 30) ? Def Rtg: 103.5 (5th of 30)
Expected W-L: 61-21 (2nd of 30)


Miami had a higher SRS rating, Allowed Fewer PPG, Averaged more PPG, had a higher Expected W-L, had a higher Offensive and Defensive Rating and the Mavs were missing 3 players in Caron Butler, Rodrigue Beaubois and Brendan Haywood in the Finals.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-heat

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm just not seeing how Dirk is "clearly the best".. If you think he should be voted in here, that's one thing since a few players have a case for this spot. But clearly the best?

Ebbs
09-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Wade was the best player on his team for one series this post season. Dirk was the best player on his team the entire year start through finish. Dirk was unguardable in the postseason and led the underdog to the series win each and every round.

Who believed in the Mavs the entire time? Aside from the obvious Sir Charles Barkley :cool:

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 12:32 PM
He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team that year. In the playoffs the guy took 9 freaking shots one game. You do stuff like that when you have a bunch of offensive weapons not when you barely have anyone who can score.

JB it was what the coach ASKED of him. He is a PG. His coach implemented a system in which his team would be less reliant on their PG to contribute ask much in terms of scoring. A system that preached the concept of team play over individual dominance. Had Derrick played in such a system he too would have deferred to his teammates (provided he had a capable SG to compliment his game) much more. He maybe wouldn't have taken 9 shots in a game in the playoffs but he'd surely be less aggressive as a result.

Geargo Wallace
09-07-2011, 12:34 PM
I'm more of a CP3 man myself.

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:34 PM
Wade was the best player on his team for one series this post season. Dirk was the best player on his team the entire year start through finish. Dirk was unguardable in the postseason and led the underdog to the series win each and every round.

Who believed in the Mavs the entire time? Aside from the obvious Sir Charles Barkley :cool:

His own fan base didn't even believe. :laugh2:

Chris Paul was the best player on his team the entire year start through finish as well. He was also unguardable in the postseason, and had he had the luxury of having a perfect team around him like Dirk did... well, hypothetical's don't really work.

Were the Mavs really that much of an underdog to say every series? They had a fantastic team top to bottom with great depth.

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 12:35 PM
Here let's use these 2 threads here for the PG stuff

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19117524#post19117524


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645801



Here as I have mentioned before I'm taking Dirk,

Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs become first team in NBA history

To defeat three teams that each had a

ALL-NBA 1st team player and ALL-NBA 2nd team player:

Kobe and Gasol
Durant and Westbrook
LeBron and Wade


So yeah Dirk was clearly the best last year.


Mavs were 2-7 without him. Was the only allstar on his team. Beat the 2x defending champions who had a higher SRS rating, better offensive and defense and beat a team that had 3 allstars with two of which are considered routinely top 3 in the league and did so without HCA.

What would the Mavs record be had Dirk not gotten injured?

They'd have the best record in the league if you ask me.

The Mavs didn't upset anyone. They were overlooked because of their lack of star power but from the beginning of the season till the very end they were without question one of the best teams in the league.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:37 PM
What would the Mavs record be had Dirk not gotten injured?

They'd have the best record in the league if you ask me.

The Mavs didn't upset anyone. They were overlooked because of their lack of star power but from the beginning of the season till the very end they were without question one of the best teams in the league.

They clearly did upset teams. They upset the 2 favorites who not only had more proven players and who had HCA but also a better offensive/defensive rating, SRS rating and a higher point differential and did so with 3 players out including arguably there 2nd best player.

Ebbs
09-07-2011, 12:38 PM
His own fan base didn't even believe. :laugh2:

Chris Paul was the best player on his team the entire year start through finish as well. He was also unguardable in the postseason.

Were the Mavs really that much of an underdog to say every series? They had a fantastic team top to bottom with great depth.

I believed until the finals. I'd be lying if I told you I thought we could beat miami. I thought Miami, Memphis, and Chicago were the toughest match-ups for us.

Yea Portland was favored despite being the lower seed.

Lakers were suppose to win at worst 5.

Durant and his young brethren were suppose to beat us in 6 since the old Mavs couldn't keep up physically.

And we were given horrendous odds against the super team.

Charles picked mavs each and every series; kenny picked our opponent every series.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm just not seeing how Dirk is "clearly the best".. If you think he should be voted in here, that's one thing since a few players have a case for this spot. But clearly the best?

Well Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Kobe all lost with HCA and Durant went 7 games against an 8th seed. Dirk essentially beat the top 3 players in the league at the beginning of the season all without HCA and also the top 2 teams in the league that were expected to win it all. He did so as the only star on his team and with 3 guys injured.
All I know is if anyone else had done that who was as productive as Dirk they would hands down had been #1.

Avenged
09-07-2011, 12:40 PM
Interesting. Could have sworn the Mavs had a full roster playing not just Dirk. :shrug:

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 12:41 PM
They clearly did upset teams. They upset the 2 favorites who not only had more proven players and who had HCA but also a better offensive/defensive rating, SRS rating and a higher point differential and did so with 3 players out including arguably there 2nd best player.

They beat teams who played better than they did in the regular season because of the mere fact that they didn't have their best player for 9 games. Had Dirk not gotten injured I'm sure we'd see their ORtg, SRS and point differential all been better.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.

It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.

wait, so the Bulls fans that go to great lengths here stating "ROSE IS A PG!" are wrong then? And just because Rose has the ability to shift off the ball doesn't make him a better player. Being a better player makes you a better player. What coach on god's green earth would shift Paul off the ball anyways? You want the ball in his hands at all times...

Paul is the better PG, player, whatever you use to measure it

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 01:06 PM
Disagree. CP3 didn't even led his team in scoring on the season and was 13th in MVP voting. Not saying MVP voting indicates who is better, but a guy who finishes top 3 in MVP voting vs a guy who can't even finish top 10 in it as the lead guy on a team shows a lot.
Not to mention the Bulls would not have been the #1 seed if CP3 was on the team last year over Rose. If this were 2008 or 2009 CP3 then sure, but not last years CP3.


Look at the disparity between these two polls.

#1 PG In The NBA? (Volume IV) - Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626426&highlight=%231+PG+In+The+NBA%3F+%28Volume+IV%29)


And then here how is there such a disparity?

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598498

that is your argument? Lets take away Rose's roster support and #1 defense, and see how many MVP votes he gets. Lets give Rose Ariza, West, Okafor, and warm bodies, and take away the top 2nd unit in the NBA, and see if he makes the playoffs out west.

Look, please don't think I am attacking Rose here. He is a great player, top 8 imo. But Chris Paul, even running at 80%, was better.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 01:09 PM
why is Rose being brought up btw? He isn't even on the poll

Baller1
09-07-2011, 01:22 PM
To the people who who keep asking why Bynum is on the list, take a few ****ing seconds to read. MHC is doing this methodically, and it works.

The NBA Forum has turned in to the elementary school of PSD.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-07-2011, 01:24 PM
andrew bynum, once he got that skyhook falling:drool:....dwight watch out.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Again, this is a flawed system. It's going to force Kobe fans to vote for Wade just to get Kobe on the next poll. Rose fans will be forced to vote for CP3 just to get Rose on the next poll. And so on and so forth. It won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players. Not at all. And best at your position doesn't necessarily mean best player overall. For example, in my opinion, CP3 might be a better point guard than Rose, according to my definition of what a point guard should be, but Rose is a greater player overall. But we are not allowed to vote for Rose until CP3 is off the board? Makes no sense.

You should have just done a straight up list of the best players, regardless of what the results were in your position polls. Not trying to hate here, I'm just saying the reasoning behind this system is over-thought, overly-complicated, and lacks common sense. Don't get me wrong, I like the position polls, but this is comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.

this

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 01:30 PM
ManRam voted for Bynum haha

Chronz
09-07-2011, 01:32 PM
Maybe because people don't consider Rose a PG for the most part and consider Chris Paul a better PG in the sense of the word, while Rose in reality is the better player. See CP3 can be a better PG but Rose the better player as Rose is more of a combo guard.
Thats there fault for misconstruing the question being asked. It was simply a vote for the best player at the position hes listed under.


It's like if you asked who was a better PG Billups or Iverson most would say Billups, but Iverson is the better player as he is more of a combo guard.
Smart people would have voted for the right player at whatever stage in their careers.

JordansBulls
09-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Again, this is a flawed system. It's going to force Kobe fans to vote for Wade just to get Kobe on the next poll. Rose fans will be forced to vote for CP3 just to get Rose on the next poll. And so on and so forth. It won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players. Not at all. And best at your position doesn't necessarily mean best player overall. For example, in my opinion, CP3 might be a better point guard than Rose, according to my definition of what a point guard should be, but Rose is a greater player overall. But we are not allowed to vote for Rose until CP3 is off the board? Makes no sense.



Excellent post!!!:clap::clap::clap:

Chronz
09-07-2011, 01:44 PM
Again, this is a flawed system. It's going to force Kobe fans to vote for Wade just to get Kobe on the next poll. Rose fans will be forced to vote for CP3 just to get Rose on the next poll. And so on and so forth. It won't be a true representation of who people really think are the best players. Not at all. And best at your position doesn't necessarily mean best player overall. For example, in my opinion, CP3 might be a better point guard than Rose, according to my definition of what a point guard should be, but Rose is a greater player overall. But we are not allowed to vote for Rose until CP3 is off the board? Makes no sense.

You should have just done a straight up list of the best players, regardless of what the results were in your position polls. Not trying to hate here, I'm just saying the reasoning behind this system is over-thought, overly-complicated, and lacks common sense. Don't get me wrong, I like the position polls, but this is comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.
The first paragraph is a legit complaint, I suppose there is no bullet proof system because the stans can skew the results if they want but Id rather have the list make sense than suffer inconsistent results.

Stans have less power if the majority is forced to choose between a select few players. Even if they support the player ahead of their player, its still makes more sense than them supporting the player behind him.

mightybosstone
09-07-2011, 01:48 PM
I'm assuming Bynum is a joke, but I would surprise a lot of people and go Paul here. I think he's the best point guard in the NBA by far, arguably the best defensive player at his position and can carry any team into the playoffs. Look at how bad that New Orleans team was after West got hurt. Not even Kobe or Wade's mediocre teams were that bad.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Ouch.. The fact that Amare will most likely have a chance at top 6-10 and Pau won't bugs me..
It bugs me too but not enough people voted for Pau ahead of Amare and its too late to go back

mightybosstone
09-07-2011, 01:57 PM
After reading MHC's explanation of why players I chosen for the poll, I see why Bynum's up there, but I think that's horrible reasoning. Some people might think that Lebron/Durant are the two best players in the NBA, but they play the same position. Or Kobe/Wade. Or Paul/Rose. By limiting the options based on positions, you're limiting the options for posters, and I don't think that this is going to be a fair list. Bynum should easily have been replaced by Kobe, and even if you wanted the second best center up there, not everyone will agree Bynum is the second best. (I don't, for example)

And i get the whole "anti-homer" reasoning, but now Lakers fans are just going to vote for Wade so they can vote for Kobe, or they'll vote for Bynum in spite of Kobe not being on the list. No matter what you do, homers will affect this list...

Da Knicks
09-07-2011, 02:14 PM
This right here is where the method by MHC may start failing. Some may vote for a player by default so that they can get their guys on the board.

It's really ridiculous that this kind of thing must be done. Smh.

Could you give us a reason as to why exactly you think this mystery player should be top 5?

Because that mystery player should of being ahead of the player chosen ahead of the player he got beat by. Therefore if the player chosen is considered better than the player i would like to vote for i feel i need to vote for that player. Anyways Durant is my choice over all the others on the list and makes the whole choice of the poll a good one.

SteBO
09-07-2011, 02:18 PM
After reading MHC's explanation of why players I chosen for the poll, I see why Bynum's up there, but I think that's horrible reasoning. Some people might think that Lebron/Durant are the two best players in the NBA, but they play the same position. Or Kobe/Wade. Or Paul/Rose. By limiting the options based on positions, you're limiting the options for posters, and I don't think that this is going to be a fair list. Bynum should easily have been replaced by Kobe, and even if you wanted the second best center up there, not everyone will agree Bynum is the second best. (I don't, for example)

And i get the whole "anti-homer" reasoning, but now Lakers fans are just going to vote for Wade so they can vote for Kobe, or they'll vote for Bynum in spite of Kobe not being on the list. No matter what you do, homers will affect this list...
It still minimizes the effect they can have on it though, and it keeps the polls consistent.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 02:20 PM
Some people might think that Lebron/Durant are the two best players in the NBA, but they play the same position.
The system still allows for those 2 to be selected in succession, what the system prevents is the already voted inferior player to be voted ahead of the guy in front of him.


By limiting the options based on positions, you're limiting the options for posters, and I don't think that this is going to be a fair list.
Limiting the options is the only way to ensure a fair list. How can Kobe go ahead of Wade, or Rose ahead of CP3 if we already voted that they arent ahead of them?



Bynum should easily have been replaced by Kobe, and even if you wanted the second best center up there, not everyone will agree Bynum is the second best. (I don't, for example)

Yea but your opinion was already outweighed in the Center rankings, it doesnt matter if you disagreed (I didnt agree on several rankings) I still want to see a consistent list.


And i get the whole "anti-homer" reasoning, but now Lakers fans are just going to vote for Wade so they can vote for Kobe, or they'll vote for Bynum in spite of Kobe not being on the list. No matter what you do, homers will affect this list...
Agreed, which is why the best course of action to reduce contradiction has been taken.

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 02:24 PM
Because that mystery player should of being ahead of the player chosen ahead of the player he got beat by. Therefore if the player chosen is considered better than the player i would like to vote for i feel i need to vote for that player. Anyways Durant is my choice over all the others on the list and makes the whole choice of the poll a good one.

That makes no sense whatsoever. So tell us where does this player rank exactly then. And instead of giving us your baseless opinion put some substance behind your post. Give us a reason to believe you.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 02:28 PM
Because that mystery player should of being ahead of the player chosen ahead of the player he got beat by. Therefore if the player chosen is considered better than the player i would like to vote for i feel i need to vote for that player. Anyways Durant is my choice over all the others on the list and makes the whole choice of the poll a good one.

In other words, your bitter that your favorite player lost. Well once Durant is chosen Melo should be available for you to vote, sadly I foresee him losing MANY more times within this project despite your best efforts.

Hellcrooner
09-07-2011, 02:29 PM
It bugs me too but not enough people voted for Pau ahead of Amare and its too late to go back

and you know why that happened?

because the playoffs fiasco was fresh.

many people right now ( as in maybe seeing he is back to normal playing in eurobasket) may make up their mind by now.

thats why having 15 options ( top 3 available for each position) would give a better result.

its no "contradiction" is

1 evolution of the line of tough trough months.
2 maybe more people votes, so its more representative.

eitherf way they best way to show Psds real collective tought is making the round robin thing i proposed in an earlier post.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 02:38 PM
and you know why that happened?

because the playoffs fiasco was fresh.

many people right now ( as in maybe seeing he is back to normal playing in eurobasket) may make up their mind by now.

thats why having 15 options ( top 3 available for each position) would give a better result.

its no "contradiction" is

1 evolution of the line of tough trough months.
2 maybe more people votes, so its more representative.

eitherf way they best way to show Psds real collective tought is making the round robin thing i proposed in an earlier post.
Sadly you cant go back, this is all 1 big project. If you want to make a poll of Amare vs Pau then go for it, but he already lost in THIS project.

mightybosstone
09-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Limiting the options is the only way to ensure a fair list. How can Kobe go ahead of Wade, or Rose ahead of CP3 if we already voted that they arent ahead of them?

Agreed, which is why the best course of action to reduce contradiction has been taken
But those top 10 position rankings weren't done this way, so no matter what this is going to be affected homers. Pau and Amare is a great example. Pau is clearly the better player, but Knicks fans won that argument. Now Amare can crack the top 10 BECAUSE of homerism, and Pau has almost no chance. Hell, if Lakers fans wanted to, they could vote Bynum into the top 10.

I would have done it differently. I would have posted the top 2 options from each position and then replace each player picked with the next player on that list. That gives people more options, and if they want to vote for Kobe or Rose here, they still have the ability to.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 03:32 PM
But those top 10 position rankings weren't done this way, so no matter what this is going to be affected homers.
It wasnt done this way because the rankings at each position were being selected. Now that we know who PSD has chosen as the superior player at each position we can go down the list. But yes homers can **** it up regardless.


Pau and Amare is a great example. Pau is clearly the better player, but Knicks fans won that argument. Now Amare can crack the top 10 BECAUSE of homerism, and Pau has almost no chance.
Pau being the clearly better player didnt stop most people from voting for Amare. So why should Pau get another chance? Because we disagreed with the results? Whats to stop them from doing it again? May as well move the list forward.



Hell, if Lakers fans wanted to, they could vote Bynum into the top 10.
If enough fans of any player wanted to they could vote him above clearly inferior players. This system only ensures that the already voted inferior player doesnt go ahead of the guy he already lost to.


I would have done it differently. I would have posted the top 2 options from each position and then replace each player picked with the next player on that list. That gives people more options, and if they want to vote for Kobe or Rose here, they still have the ability to.

But why should they have the ability to vote for them if they already lost? This only opens the door for contradiction, any case Rose or Kobe have for the top spot can only be stronger for the player who was voted ahead of him.

Da Knicks
09-07-2011, 04:16 PM
In other words, your bitter that your favorite player lost. Well once Durant is chosen Melo should be available for you to vote, sadly I foresee him losing MANY more times within this project despite your best efforts.

Not bitter at all just following the rules, if i feel that Melo should be ahead of Durant thats my personal opinion. If Melo keeps on losing thats just tough luck, im not going to cry like all these laker and bull fans that keep throwing a fit because they cannot read. Melo to me was the second best small forward but i can live with him being 3rd unlike some people in here. If Durant beat him and i felt Melo was the better option i vote for who the people voted for as the number 2. How hard is that? Do i feel like Durant is better than Dirk, Paul, i think he has a case.

For all the people crying read!!!! For the record im not being a homer, i could have voted Dirk to get Amare in and start voting for him. I really do think Melo is very underrated, that will all change this year. Melo is better than Amare and he is also better than all the players left on this list. This is my personal opinion and if you dont like it i dont care.:)

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 05:01 PM
Not bitter at all just following the rules, if i feel that Melo should be ahead of Durant thats my personal opinion. If Melo keeps on losing thats just tough luck, im not going to cry like all these laker and bull fans that keep throwing a fit because they cannot read. Melo to me was the second best small forward but i can live with him being 3rd unlike some people in here. If Durant beat him and i felt Melo was the better option i vote for who the people voted for as the number 2. How hard is that? Do i feel like Durant is better than Dirk, Paul, i think he has a case.

For all the people crying read!!!! For the record im not being a homer, i could have voted Dirk to get Amare in and start voting for him. I really do think Melo is very underrated, that will all change this year. Melo is better than Amare and he is also better than all the players left on this list. This is my personal opinion and if you dont like it i dont care.:)

That's good because we don't.

Usually the biggest homers/fan boys who really don't have reason for choosing a player other than the fact that he's one of the favourite player's are the ones who always say it's their opinion. Do your favourite players some good respect but also criticism and rate them fairly.

I'm an A.I. fan boy you don't see me running around here saying he's a top 20 player all time and saying that's just my opinion. Grow some cojones and back your opinion why don't ya.

mightybosstone
09-07-2011, 05:10 PM
But why should they have the ability to vote for them if they already lost? This only opens the door for contradiction, any case Rose or Kobe have for the top spot can only be stronger for the player who was voted ahead of him.

One thing I initially thought of earlier was this... Sometimes I would consider a player differently if we're talking position or overall player. For instance, if you asked me who the better point guard is between Deron Williams and Derrick Rose, I'd pick Williams, because he's clearly the better distributor. If you asked me who the better player is, I might pick Rose, because he's more explosive, and I think he's more likely to take over a game. And I think you could do that with almost every position. SG = Shooting, SF = Perimeter D, PF = Rebounding, C = Rebounding + Shot blocking.

Maybe that's a poor argument, or not everyone agrees, but I think it holds some validity, especially if we're talking about point guards and big men.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2011, 05:27 PM
HA! Kobe Bryant not in the top 3? Get the F outta here. I don't care what the stats say KB is top 3 for however long he is in the league. And that's at the least.

instead of dropping an arrogant blanket statement, make a case. And in reality, Kobe isn't part of this yet. When Wade goes, you can make whatever case you would like. I am sure it will tick you off watching another 2-4 players go before Kobe after this poll however.

naps
09-07-2011, 05:28 PM
I'd have to say it's a tie between Wade and Durant. Durant's a better shooter, Wade's a better slasher. Neither are dominant defensively.

Which Wade are you talking about? Senior Wade? Because the one I know is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.

Ebbs
09-07-2011, 05:44 PM
Melo over Dirk or CP3 should be an infraction.

naps
09-07-2011, 05:53 PM
And after reading last couple of pages, why is Rose being debated here? He's not even on poll. Dedicating 2/3 pages for him here is pointless.

Da Knicks
09-07-2011, 06:12 PM
That's good because we don't.

Usually the biggest homers/fan boys who really don't have reason for choosing a player other than the fact that he's one of the favourite player's are the ones who always say it's their opinion. Do your favourite players some good respect but also criticism and rate them fairly.

I'm an A.I. fan boy you don't see me running around here saying he's a top 20 player all time and saying that's just my opinion. Grow some cojones and back your opinion why don't ya.

LOL Ok man don't know why you are riding me so hard but here you go. I would take Melo because the guy just needs to be motivated to play to his potential. His defense is very underrated, he showed that he could lock down his oppenent when needed and was clutch as usual as his game winners show including the one over the sixers. He rebounds very well for a small forward, and has the sickest post up game of any of the players left. You could argue only Dirk could match his offensive game but Anthony is just so much younger. He loves competition and comes up big when faced against the elite and never backs down or is afraid to take the big shot.

He needs work on his condition, he needs to learn how to play better team defense and he needs to get his teamates more involved. He has flaws as do the other players but his flaws are more to do with motivation than anything. His offensive game will give him more nba life do to the fact that his game is not built on speed. He is one of the few nba players who can shoot, drive, and more importantly post up something that the other young stars do not have in the arsenal yet. If you didnt watch Anthony after the trade i could see why you would not agree but Melo will be one of the top 3 players from here on out. You don't need advanced stats to see talent, if you can't see what a player he is becoming i dont know what else to tell you. Lates:cool:

DR_1
09-07-2011, 07:50 PM
Dirk then KD

sargon21
09-07-2011, 08:14 PM
that is your argument? Lets take away Rose's roster support and #1 defense, and see how many MVP votes he gets. Lets give Rose Ariza, West, Okafor, and warm bodies, and take away the top 2nd unit in the NBA, and see if he makes the playoffs out west.

Look, please don't think I am attacking Rose here. He is a great player, top 8 imo. But Chris Paul, even running at 80%, was better.

So CP3 had a better year than Rose last year alone?

No, and even if you do think he did, no matter what it's close and Rose should be listed on the poll if CP3 is.

tredigs
09-07-2011, 08:19 PM
I want you all dead.

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 08:54 PM
LOL Ok man don't know why you are riding me so hard but here you go. I would take Melo because the guy just needs to be motivated to play to his potential.

VERY true. But that doesn't make him better. A motivated Carmelo is easily top 10 and certainly has a STRONG case for top 5 or even top 3, however how often do we see that player?


His defense is very underrated, he showed that he could lock down his oppenent when needed

No he can't. Melo only plays good defense when he's motivated of in the dying minutes of important games. He's arguably the most lazy star player in the league. Had he not been lazy he would have been a steady player on the defensive not lock down by any means however.


and was clutch as usual as his game winners show including the one over the sixers.

Melo has always been clutch. I'd take him over damn near any player in the league with the game on the line.


He rebounds very well for a small forward

True but so does Durant and LeBron.


and has the sickest post up game of any of the players left.

Kobe's and Dirk's are still better.


You could argue only Dirk could match his offensive game but Anthony is just so much younger. He loves competition and comes up big when faced against the elite and never backs down or is afraid to take the big shot.

Despite having such a complete offensive game Melo still isn't the scorer that Durant or LeBron is. I don't see how that really helps him. And if you're going to use age as a factor KD is what 23? Already has 2 scoring titles under his belt and is figured to get quite a few more. Melo will most likely never become a scoring champ.


He needs work on his condition, he needs to learn how to play better team defense and he needs to get his teamates more involved. He has flaws as do the other players but his flaws are more to do with motivation than anything. His offensive game will give him more nba life do to the fact that his game is not built on speed. He is one of the few nba players who can shoot, drive, and more importantly post up something that the other young stars do not have in the arsenal yet. If you didnt watch Anthony after the trade i could see why you would not agree but Melo will be one of the top 3 players from here on out. You don't need advanced stats to see talent, if you can't see what a player he is becoming i dont know what else to tell you. Lates:cool:

Carmelo is 26 years old. When are we going to stop talking about talent?

You're going on and on about Carmelo's skill and potential. Tell me something when will he be able to put it all together and stop wasting his God given potential? As I said before if motivated Carmelo IMO can become a top 3 player in this league, but the problem is it's so hard for him to become motivated and when he does it doesn't last very long.

I don't get your whole talent argument. I really really don't. That's really a non factor if you ask me. I mean seriously the man has been in the league 8 years already. Don't you think we know his talent? Not seeing what he's going to become? What's that about? You see something different from everyone else because you're a blind homer.

I wonder something. Did you see the talent in Melo a couple years ago with the fight at the Garden? When damn near every Knick fan was calling him Carmela? Anywho that's off topic.

Point is your eyes sees different things from someone else's because why? They are biased. Stats whether basic or advanced aren't.

I may think Halle Berry is the hottest woman in Hollywood and you may disagree and say Jessica Alba is. Does that make either of us right?

I may say Blake Griffin/Derrick Rose/Dirk/Pau/ Pierce etc etc are all more talented than Carmelo because I value different aspects of their game more than those of Melo's. Does that make me right and you wrong?

I think you need to just admit you have a bias and you really don't have any reason other than that to take Melo.

Mile High Champ
09-07-2011, 09:10 PM
The amount of *****ing and complaining from a few select posters has now hit a historic level. Honestly if people are simply going to vote for Wade because they want Kobe for the next spot, than I honestly don't know what to say. IF you are that imature and pathetic that you would have to do that and ruin the poll than so be it. Some of you need to grow up..

tredigs
09-07-2011, 09:21 PM
When arguing Melo over anyone with the "SO good when he ACTUALLY TRIES" cliche', we have to remember that it's a hell of a lot easier to look good and put out your all in the dying minutes when you've been jogging half the time you're out there. Much more impressive/difficult feat for the guys who don't take plays off.

juno10
09-07-2011, 09:23 PM
The amount of *****ing and complaining from a few select posters has now hit a historic level. Honestly if people are simply going to vote for Wade because they want Kobe for the next spot, than I honestly don't know what to say. IF you are that imature and pathetic that you would have to do that and ruin the poll than so be it. Some of you need to grow up..

i doubt thats why people are voting for wade, he's simply the best player left atleast for me..

Swashcuff
09-07-2011, 09:25 PM
When arguing Melo over anyone with the "SO good when he ACTUALLY TRIES" cliche', we have to remember that it's a hell of a lot easier to look good and put out your all in the dying minutes when you've been jogging half the time you're out there. Much more impressive/difficult feat for the guys who don't take plays off.

Precisely.

I don't understand why make dumb reasons like that for your favourite player. If anything one should be critical of his favourite player for that. Had Melo tried all game on many occasions it may not have even been that close at the end to begin with.

naps
09-07-2011, 09:26 PM
And the myth that Melo is a much better shooter than other superstars is mind boggling.

Do people really look up the stats and compare them before they make a god damn comment?

Here's an example: If you ask on PSD, who's the better shooter at this moment of their careers? LeBron or Melo?
I bet most people are gonna laugh at you and start bashing LeBron from the get go.

Well, here's what Hawkeye has to offer (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19121083&postcount=84) for those of you.

naps
09-07-2011, 09:29 PM
The amount of *****ing and complaining from a few select posters has now hit a historic level. Honestly if people are simply going to vote for Wade because they want Kobe for the next spot, than I honestly don't know what to say. IF you are that imature and pathetic that you would have to do that and ruin the poll than so be it. Some of you need to grow up..

MHC, I agree with you and I don't like complaining for posts after posts.

But as for Wade, he's being voted here because he's simply the best on the list. He actually should have gone #2 IMO.

Mile High Champ
09-07-2011, 09:44 PM
i doubt thats why people are voting for wade, he's simply the best player left atleast for me..

Agreed but some people disagree...

Mile High Champ
09-07-2011, 09:45 PM
MHC, I agree with you and I don't like complaining for posts after posts.

But as for Wade, he's being voted here because he's simply the best on the list. He actually should have gone #2 IMO.

Oh I have no issue with Wade going here at all. I just used it as an example as it pertained to the issue a poster brought up. I am fine with one of Paul-Dirk or Wade here.

bholly
09-07-2011, 10:25 PM
MHC,
People don't understand the system now, but once it's done and the rankings are set the complaints will die. Kobe will be ahead of Bynum, Rose will be on there soon, and any "X should be above Y but wasn't nominated yet so the system sucks" comments will be easily diffused with evidence like "X lost directly to Z in the positional polls, and Z lost directly to Y in the overall poll, so X < Y according to the PSD voters". The disputes seem to all be either a) people don't understand and think Bynum is going to get ranked before Kobe/Rose is even nominated, or that this system is somehow more susceptible to homerism, b) people don't like the initial ranks (usually because they're homers) and so are upset the system won't allow for overturning them, c) people genuinely don't think X<Z and Z<Y should necessarily mean X<Y.
The a) people are the vast majority and will understand once the rankings get a bit further, the b) people are just one or two who homer up every thread so who cares what they think?, and the c) people have a legitimate view but seem to be respectful in their dissent and seem to recognize there was a tradeoff between the pros and cons of multiple systems and you just chose one of the better ways that was different to what they would've chosen.

So, in short, don't worry about the haters. Some understand but disagree respectfully, some have opinions that don't matter at all, and the rest will understand soon enough. Keep up the good work.